Combat Overhaul

[crude valley]

I'll have time to look deeper on Thursday. Thanks for the work you do, Maltiez.

[fallow surge]

Took half an hour to an hour to adjust this one loading animation to tp (with some code fixes in CO in the process)...

[sinful panther]

you're cooking so hard rn

[fervent swift]

Looks 10/10!

[mighty nacelle]

Maltiez can you please add a config lib setting so that when you right click with a parry weapon it prioritizes vanilla behavior? So I don't need to hold alt when holding my sword and instead I just can't parry if I'm looking at a door or something

[fallow surge]

Cant, no idea how to implement it

[sinful panther]

oops forgot to report something else

i don't imagine this gigantic durability difference is intended

it is intended?

[fallow surge]

no

[sinful panther]

LAWD dude the third person animations are gigantic

this last update released 2 hours ago ain't working with this old server i have

i have the backup so it's fine, sorry if it's me being stoopid but it's 5am so imma 🛌

plot twist, prolly is

[fallow surge]

make sure you dont have duplicate archives in mods folder

[sinful panther]

Yeah, i did delete it but it's still showing up there

i'll figure it out later on, thanks thanks

[fallow surge]

clear cache, restart the game

it is not a problem with the mod itself

[fallow surge]

Reworked a crossbow animation and then discovered that I haven't copied it into an asset, now need to do it again...

[eager shard]

I see the arrow video as I'm new to this forum page- I just wanted to ask some clarifying questions.
Is the arrow overhaul that, instead of firing to a random angle around the crosshair, every bow is now 100% accurate but instead makes the crosshair wobble around with varying degrees of intensity based on its inaccuracy factor?

B/c that's a serious upgrade in my opinion over the previous mechanics, makes it possible to actually shoot things from a small distance with the low tier bows.

Also, are bows dead-accurate if you release exactly when it's ready to fire? Or is there a prewobble

[fallow surge]

Try it out

[eager shard]

I will, is there a way to jump to the top of the forum? I saw a link there that I'm fairly certain was for the download link

[fallow surge]

There are 5k messages, I dont think you want read them all, also nothing special in first post

[eager shard]

Ok I'll give it a whirl later today 👌

Also did you give the ancient maces a durability buff

Apparently they're a rare spawn in ruins with a basement/underground section. They spawn propped up against a wall and have a pale green flanged head.

[fallow surge]

Ruined weapons are untouched

[eager shard]

But they have like 11 health for being the only vanilla iron-tier weapon with extended range and match the iron sword in damage I think.

I see ok

It'd be nice to see them having like a refurbishing mechanic like blackguard/forlorn hope armor.

[wild light]

Does anyone know why I dont have any animations when swinging the weapons? I hear the sound, but nothing happens and cant damage any creatures. I have combat overhaul, armory, and firearms installed

[fallow surge]

send client-main logs

[wild light]

I somehow made it work, I dont know how

sorry for bother

[fallow surge]

probably restarting the game

[wild light]

yeah, I figured that just reloading mods wouldnt cut it

but holy shit this mod is awesome

[sinful panther]

If you really want to, Ctrl+F, filter by oldest

[nocturne shore]

Is Qearterstaff misspelling ? Usually its called Quarterstaff

[sinful panther]

When we getting a saber? this looks so dope

pfffffft a nightmare drifter just did 21 blunt damage to me through my forlorn plate helmet + chainmail + leather jerkin lmao

[mighty nacelle]

If Swords supported CO then we'd have the saber from that mod

[thin wing]

gotta get gambeson for that blunt protection

[hollow pasture]

Yeah, Jerkin simply won't cut it for Eldritch horrors

Geared up for the RA

Still need to make bread and med items, but the armor and weapons are finished

[sinful panther]

Get that Hp up

[hollow pasture]

Fruit and vegetables struggle to grow in my climate

It's meant for bronze gear now, so I should be alright

Actually, I should start eating the honey I have. I've got like 2 barrels full of it

[mighty nacelle]

in vanilla combat there's knockback when you hit a drifter with a falx. Will you add knockback to CO?

it's not a lot of knockback

[deep obsidian]

I'm curious, are there supposed to be third person attack animations for multiplayer?

[thin wing]

Just placeholder ones

[tribal flicker]

friend has full iron plate armor w leather jerkin and is still losing over half his health to drifter rocks

that doesnt make any sense

[floral holly]

Hat's off to you for your work on this, Maltiez. Really starting to get into playing around with things as 1.20 stable draws nearer, and am thoroughly enjoying it.

I know folks are hounding you over bugs and balancing issues, but hope you take it in stride and see it through. This is a stellar tool for bringing immersive combat mechanics to the game.

[fallow surge]

Drifters' rocks deal 1 damage, has 0 damage tier and fully blocked by any armor with blunt protection.

[fallow surge]

I spend a ton of time implementing tp animations, and you say they arent there? Update to latest version.

[thin wing]

:O oh they're working now? Nice!

Good job malteiz

[fallow surge]

falx should have negative knockback, imo.

[fallow surge]

Also need to adjust knockback values cause for some reason I dont see it working

[fallow surge]

Test them, I'm not sure anymore. Works on my machine

[thin wing]

I didn't update to the newest version yet, i was gonna save fiddling with updates for a bit after the RA lol

[frigid kraken]

the spanish rodelaros countered pike formations with shields and swords, acting as the shock infantry element of the recio, used once the push of pike has begun to break through the hedge of pikes tho.

[frigid kraken]

so cool

[thin wing]

@fallow surge i'm trying to fight the immobilized eidolon in the RA with an iron greatsword, but for some reason the vast majority of my attacks do 0 damage and make a dull "thud" sound

it still flashes red so I know I'm hitting it but only like 1/10 attacks actually do damage, which is also denoted with a different noise

I had noticed a similar thing with bells where most of my attacks were making dull "thud" sounds instead of the normal sound when hitting them and it took a ton of hits to kill (almost 40 hits with a mace) but I thought it was just the bell being weirdly tanky

[thin wing]

i'm assuming this is from the locational damage thing? I think the weakspot on the eidolon is way too strict >_<

Any weapon that slashes instead of stabs almost always hits the edge of the eidolon first, so trying to use the greatsword is incredibly difficult because the only attack that reliably hits the weakpoint (and by "reliably" i mean about half the time) is the thrust and that's a bit awkward to pull off consistently while trying to dodge everything else

I think hits against parts of the body that aren't the weakspot should still do some damage, just reduced. The majority of my attacks with the greatsword doing literally 0 damage and getting that dull "thud" sound of an attack being blocked feels exceptionally bad.

[deep obsidian]

updating fixed it, thanks!

[elder bear]

Hello @fallow surge, would be possible to add the possibility to automaticly place a new log from inventory after char split it with an axe? Anyway, thank you for the love, time and work you put in your mods. Great job!

[wild torrent]

Using 0.0.132 of CO and this update seems to have broken my ability to hit targets with a bow (recurve with Cu arrows). Shooting 5 times at a chicken, 4 went through it to strike the tree behind it, none registered a hit. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[lyric orchid]

there's "hitboxes" for parts of the weapon too. gotta make sure you're hitting it with the right parts. there's also damage resistance for certain types of damage

basically: don't attack too close, else you'll be hitting the eidolon with the handle or something

[torn condor]

would like a system where you can lock your attack direction with stuff like the quarterstaff so you dont have to fiddle with the camera to get the type of swing you want, other than that, everything is awesome

[fallow surge]

Reproduce and send client-main logs

[mighty nacelle]

it might be this mod causing you to prune bushes when you harvest them with your fist?

[fallow surge]

no

[wild torrent]

Reproduce... You mean the steps to reproduce? Get a recurve bow and copper arrows (I think any arrows will do, really), find an animal (I used both a rabbit and a chicken in my test), aim and shoot. Arrows go through the animal (I can see it when I'm close enough) and no "ding" goes off.

client-main logs... here you go. ;2)

[mighty nacelle]

how close are you to the animal when you shoot?

I'm testing from a few blocks away and it's hitting

[wild torrent]

I was about 8-10 blocks away (crouching position). I'll get in my server in a few moments and confirm I can still reproduce. Other weird things have been going on in it so I'm playing triage.

[mighty nacelle]

I'm having trouble reproducing this in singleplayer: https://imgur.com/a/ccDfihH

I could see it being a server issue though

does it happen to you in singleplayer?

[wild torrent]

Given all the strange cr@p I've seen on mine lately, I won't deny that. ;2)

I haven't tested in singleplayer... not that much time on my hands right now

[fallow surge]

I will work on eidolon more, right now yeah you have to use stub attacks

[frigid kraken]

Is the collision for the greataxe only on the actual axe head? So you have to make sure the head hits and not the haft?

[wild torrent]

Seems I can hit now... the gods favor me again, it seems. 🤷‍♂️

[mighty nacelle]

ok it might be a skill issue on my part but hitting a bell with an arquebus is really hard now

because you can't hit the bell part of it, that does zero damage

I do love the balancing quirk that firearms do blunt damage so they're useful against late-game enemies with lots of piercing resistance

[mighty nacelle]

also I think drifter damage needs to be rebalanced. I received 20 hp of damage from a corrupt drifter while wearing vanilla steel scale armor

[tribal flicker]

can you show the dmg log?

my friend was experiencing the same shit

[mighty nacelle]

sure

[mighty nacelle]

you know what? I'm gonna test this wtih a few sets of armor based on what I think is reasonable

and a few types of drifters

ok I did some testing and am finding that in some cases I receive the same damage regardless of if I'm wearing armor:

in this case I took 10 damage from the corrupt drifter without armor and 10 damage with bronze lamellar

now let me try a stronger armor

[tribal flicker]

their melee attack does piercing?

[mighty nacelle]

hey that might be why chain + brigandine wasn't helping

ok so I just had a very strange thing happen: I was wearing steel plate armor and getting hit by a corrupt drifter, and sometimes all damage is absorbed while sometimes none of it is absorbed

notice how all the piercing damage is getting absorbed

but then randomly he deals blunt damage instead of piercing damage and I receive 7.5 damage

reminder: this is STEEL PLATE ARMOR, the vanilla kind.

and I received 7.5 damage from a corrupt drifter's attack randomly

now let me experiment with CO armor

yep, happened again:

this time with this armor:

the location of the hits is not the problem as you see no durability loss to anything but the torso

and the logs say torso

I tried it with a tainted drifter and none of its hits hit

now nightmare time

yep, nightmare was able to do 7 damage to me by hitting a part covered by armor:

and my leg armor still took durability

so yes something is clearly broken here

[glass crystal]

have you tried using gambeson to counter the blunt damage?

i'm not sure but i think greaves dont have a lot of blunt armor

it has only 4 blunt

[mighty nacelle]

my problem is that I'm receiving the same damage values with blunt attacks when I'm wearing metal armor

[mighty nacelle]

see here: this was before and after putting on tin bronze brigandine

actually it's even worse in that example because that was piercing damage

[tribal flicker]

what damage type are the drifter slaps?

the rocks are 0 tier blunt correct?

[glass crystal]

i think your armor was to low so the mob (higher damage tier) ignored it

i think a corrupt drifter has enought tiers to ignore the piercing protection of the bronze brigantine

[mighty nacelle]

why should it just ignore all armor though? in vanilla armor gives you some amount of flat damage reduction

[tribal flicker]

try iron plate + jerkin

my friend was somehow losing half his health to some sort of drifter attack with that

[mighty nacelle]

btw this is iron brigandine

so at the same tier it works sorta

[mighty nacelle]

this is CO iron plate right?

[tribal flicker]

yes

[mighty nacelle]

and tainted drifter?

or something else

[glass crystal]

the enemy tier matters a lot

[tribal flicker]

he doesnt remember but he has been swearing up and down that something is broken with CO because there is some attack edge case that keeps taking half his health in one hit even with that armor

[glass crystal]

use steel plate + chain + tailored gambeson and test

i believe you would take close to no damage

[tribal flicker]

it might be the flat 7.5 piercing damage but idk what attack that is. he thought it was a rock that was doing it

[glass crystal]

yes

[warm plank]

does the eidolon have special resistances? were doing chip damage to it with iron weapons

im assuming we might need hammers

[mighty nacelle]

I'm having trouble replicating the flat 7.5 blunt

but I know it exists somewher

[glass crystal]

he took 10 blunt damage (tier 3) from a corrupt drifter
2.5 of that was negated by the armor (i believe it was a bronze brigantine that has blunt: 1)

took 7.5 damage

[mighty nacelle]

which attack does 10 blunt though?

[glass crystal]

seems correct to me

[mighty nacelle]

I can't get him to replicate it

[glass crystal]

a corrupt drifter punch i believe

based on your print

[hollow pasture]

I believe he set it up like the spears where hitting with the handle will do negligible damage

[hollow pasture]

Gambeson under armor will have the biggest effect on blunt damage. Just for comparison, steel plate gives the same blunt damage protection as a standard gambeson

[mighty nacelle]

is there a way to get blunt protection pre-leather? in vanilla, you can craft lamellar armor with just pelts, and those work alright. With CO it doesn't seem like you can really get blunt protection unless you make jerkin or gambeson though.

[hollow pasture]

You're right about some strangeness there though

[mighty nacelle]

(I consider gambeson harder than leather to obtain)

[hollow pasture]

Lamellar armor has jerkin level blunt protection

[mighty nacelle]

ah ok

[tribal flicker]

iron plate torso and leg, open iron helmet, all leather jerkin

[frigid kraken]

Can you take damage from slashing weapons when you're wearing chainmail?

[mighty nacelle]

Player receives 5.2 blunt danage to right leg
Lost 5.25 hp by a nightmare drifter

yeahhhh something's off here

[tribal flicker]

crawling drifter did this while im standing somehow

[glass crystal]

he has long arms 😂

yesterday i took damage to my hands and got killed, it is the only part of armor that i never use

sadly sometimes we get unlucky

[mighty nacelle]

alright so I don't really know how to argue about the blunt stuff. However, I do think the damage tier stuff in CO is messed up. Here's me taking the exact same damage with or without tin bronze lamellar:

I understand that the lamellar shouldn't protect you super well because it's a tier below, but should it really just not protect you at all?

[mighty nacelle]

like the idea that a player encounters a tainted drifter with bronze armor isn't exactly that insane

[mighty nacelle]

I guess they'd have to be insane to make bronze armor if it just doesn't work

[tribal flicker]

how is a corrupt drifter still able to do 15 blunt to the face with all this on

a crawling one, while im standing nonetheless

[glass crystal]

i'm not totally sure, but i believe it is like this:
damage tier 1 - armor tier 1 = good protection
damage tier 2 - armor tier 1 = decent protection
damage tier 3 - armor tier 1 = bad protection
damage tier 4 - armor tier 1 = practically no protection

and this pattern works generally (keep in mind that this are just examples and i don't remember exactly the scale of this, somewhere exists a chart about it)

[glass crystal]

i agree

but i think it is more of a swarm problem

i think it is decent to fight a tainted drifter with bronze armor

[mighty nacelle]

well it's clearly not. Tainted drifter is tier 3 and bronze is tier 2 right? That should be decent protection, not NO protection

[glass crystal]

but when you are caving and get 8 enemys it is really subpar protection

[glass crystal]

depends on the armor you are using

bronze plate is better for piercing

brigantine for cheap slash protection

[mighty nacelle]

neither of those are accessible early game due to lack of helve hammer

[glass crystal]

the tier is the value after the tipe of protection

[mighty nacelle]

and also needing leather

[glass crystal]

so bronze brigandine has tier 1 blunt

[mighty nacelle]

and in vanilla lamellar bronze still has tier 2

[glass crystal]

i forged my bronze plate armor

[mighty nacelle]

I mean I'ev done it before too

[glass crystal]

i think it was quite easy to make

[mighty nacelle]

when I say accessable I don't mean possible

[glass crystal]

the fact we can just forge it is really handy

this is my armor at the moment

[mighty nacelle]

I totally agree that chain and plate should be more effective than lamellar. However, I still think lamellar should be a viable option for caving for earlier game players.

like imagine someone not knowing about this and spending like 20 bronze to make lamellar only for it to literally not protect them at all

[glass crystal]

i get it

[mighty nacelle]

sorry, 19 bronze

[glass crystal]

thats one of the reasons i suggested to make a handbook page about the armors and their price

but to be fair i dont think a new player would use CO

[mighty nacelle]

a server might have it

[glass crystal]

and i never made a lamellar armor

even when i started playing

[glass crystal]

fair point

[mighty nacelle]

again, neither do I

I don't use it either normally

because in vanilla, the armor tier system is also broken

I just kinda wish CO would fix the armor tier system rather than making it even more broken

[glass crystal]

but i think someone who started playing and jumped in a server propably would have a friend (mentor)

[mighty nacelle]

and I cannot justify to myself why bronze lamellar armor should just not protect you at all from a tainted drifter

I honestly wish I could viably use bronze armor instead of needing to avoid metal armor at all until I get to steel basically

it looks cool

makes me feel like a fuckin cuman

aaaaaaaaanyways all this is just gonna make maltiez have to scroll even further to see the actual logs

I rest my case

[glass crystal]

they look cool

[glass crystal]

i use plate+ tailored gambeson

it works well

killed a lot of bells with this armor

died multiple times to saw locusts

but they do slashing damage

and are high tier

so i think it is fair

[mighty nacelle]

sawblades should absolutely turn you into spaghetti, I'm not arguing against that

[glass crystal]

@mighty nacelle i use this combination in the early game

it is good enough to go caving

@fallow surge i don't know if it is up to you, but the pauldrons get a little strange when stored on a armor stand

[thin wing]

the main thing i've learned from playing and looking at the damage tables is that gambeson is basically mandatory for drifters with their blunt damage.

If I had one balance quibble, I think tailored gambeson is too mandatory and jerkin's too bad, that 2 bash defense is basically nothing. You're either combining it with plate which has 3-4 bash protection or something like scale or chainmail that has literally none

the way the scaling works 3 bash defense literally won't affect the damage from even tainted drifters (or higher) for instance, so if you're rocking something like scale + jerkin or just iron plate and any drifter that isn't just a surface or deep drifter punches you it won't help at all (but at least the rocks will hurt less)

There's a lot of options for metal armor for pierce and slash defense but for blunt defense it's tailored gambeson or bust, especially since tailored gambeson has a whopping 8 bash protection compared to regular gambeson's 4 and jerkin's 2

IMO
I think tailored gambeson shouldn't be so much better than regular gambeson and also should be lowered a bit. I think tailored and regular gambeson should have similar bash defense - I think 6 as the middle ground - works better and tailored just having lower debuffs, so that you don't need to have a tailor/play with a friend as a tailor just to have access to the Only Good Bash Armor, tailored is just better fitting so lower debuffs (not 0 debuffs like vanilla tho)

I also think Jerkin needs a buff, 2 bash defense is basically worth very little or nothing most of the time except against drifter rocks which aren't much of a threat to begin with. Especially since its debuffs are pretty high for how little protection it provides. I think Jerkin should either get a buff to its bash resistance - around 4 like current regular gambeson - or have its penalties lower (or, hell, even both at once) so it's an actual viable alternative to gambeson instead of just "the really shitty underarmor you wear before you can make gambeson," especially since the leather is in pretty high demand otherwise and IRL leather jerkin was used under armor in place of gambesons/aketons at times, so it must've been reasonably effective or people wouldn't've used it.

I also think to go with the overall lowering of max bash resistance from gambeson/tailored gambeson, most of the metal armors should gain a point or two of bash resistance as well instead of most of them having 0. Even without an underlayer something like scale or chain would dissipate the impact of a thrown rock somewhat and this combined with jerkin getting a buff would make it a bit more feasible to have some bash defense if you're lacking flax instead of just getting dunked on by every blunt enemy until your first flax harvest (and that's assuming it doesn't go to a sailboat or windmill).

[mighty nacelle]

why not reduce the blunt damage of these enemies? Like drifters aren't very big. I get that they have super sharp spines, but are their punches really strong enough to nearly kill me through a plate of steel?

[thin wing]

I don't think the formula needs to be changed - i think it's reasonable for a mid-to-high tier drifter's punches or the eidolon's rock to do full damage if you're only wearing like bronze armor or scale or something and no padded underlayer, I just don't think bash armor should be solely relegated to Only Tailored Gambeson while regular gambeson is mid at best and jerkin+plate is close to useless for anything but rocks.

[thin wing]

nah i like them doing high blunt damage, especially since there's otherwise a lack of high bash damag enemies aside from literally just moose

All the other very dangerous enemies usually do slash or pierce so there needs to be some high-damage blunt enemy that isn't just the eidolon

Also they're nightmare creatures, they have weird nightmare strength I guess

it's like getting punched by the dark souls mushrooms lol

https://tenor.com/view/one-shot-mushroom-mushroom-oneshot-darksouls-gif-19520559

[mighty nacelle]

drifters attack in swarms though, does it really make sense for each individual drifter to have that bad of a punch?

like if you encounter a tainted drifter it's probably in a group of other drifters too

[thin wing]

well it's usually only the high tier drifters that hit that hard and I'd hardly say nightmare/double headed drifters attack "in swarms"

[mighty nacelle]

nightmare and double headeds sure

[thin wing]

tainted drifters aren't that high damage and most of the time if there's a lot of drifters there's usually a gaggle of the mid/low tier ones

if my suggestion gets accepted and metal armors gain about two points of bash resistance then the 6 bash protection of steel plate even without an underlayer would be enough to reduce corrupted drifter punches by half and tainted to 1/3rd while deep and surface drifter damage becomes basically negligible

And if jerkin gets a buff (I do think wearing an underlayer of some kind should be basically mandatory, I just don't think it should only be tailored gambeson that's worth using) the damage will be reduced a lot more even if all you have is jerkin and like bronze whatever

bronze lamellar taking all 3 slots while only having 3/3/2 defense kinda hurts tho, better off just using scale...

[surreal sapphire]

Honestly I like all of your ideas Aerin_A and I think the logic is sound enough that Ill be doing that for my own personal game with the mod. i think these stats are just editable in a .json anyway

[thin wing]

Fun caveat from personal experience: you really can skimp out on blunt armor if you're confident in your ability to dodge drifter melee attacks. For the longest time I was rocking just iron scale with no underlayer and despite having literally 0 bash defense it worked pretty well because the only thing that hit me were the faster enemies like sawblades or shivers or ranged bowtorn that do slash or pierce instead. I only got punished for my hubris when fighting the eidolon and found out its boulder throw hurts quite a lot and my jerkin provided basically 0 protection

[warm plank]

would be nice if the eidolon could be harmed all over its body not just the eye

seems really unintuitive given most weapons its weak against do broad swings

[thin wing]

yeah i got really punished trying to use a greatsword against him because it was difficult to only thrust while also running around, but thankfully i brought a blackguard shortsword so i could stab it repeatedly and block the boulder with a shield

but Malteiz said he was gonna work on the eidolon after I earlier complained about that exact same thing lol

[warm plank]

the best way to fight it is using weapons from the ruins

because they ignore the resistances

[thin wing]

I think that's only because CO doesn't touch them lol

Yes if the mod makes fighting the eidolon harder, circumventing the mod entirely would make it easier lol

My suggestion for malteiz was to make it so "sourspot" hits against the eidolon still did damage, just reduced instead of literally 0

[warm plank]

i had to test it after me and my friends got wiped 3 times (we beat it unmodded before)

after testing, seems like throwing iron spears is actually strongest

[thin wing]

after dying like 5 times against the eidolon in CO, i tested fighting it in vanilla and won first try (with a commoner instead of my main blackguard no less) because the weakspot mechanic really does amp up the difficulty of the fight.

[warm plank]

which really ignores the whole 5 pierce resistance thing

[thin wing]

I think I like the fight being a bit harder personally, the vanilla version was a bit too easy. At least, once I learned I could jump over the slam attack lol

[warm plank]

it would be fine if the slam didnt drop boulders or if the eidolon didnt have 500hp making it an attrition battle more than skill check

[thin wing]

I like the slam dropping boulders

[warm plank]

it does 12hp damage with its attacks

[thin wing]

it mostly just turns it into "jump to the side" instead of "jump in place" but i like it making you stay mobile

[warm plank]

well base game

[thin wing]

tbf half of the reason i was having a hard time with the eidolon was because of my complete lack of bash defense and getting bouldered so it was partly my fault but it did make it clear how useless jerkin is

[warm plank]

i always felt like eidolon should be balanced around tin bronze tech

[thin wing]

I mean a shield makes the boulders a lot easier to deal with lol

[warm plank]

yeah but the room is not illuminated

[thin wing]

especially the large shields so you don't have to time a parry

Hm? It was for me.

It's not bright but there was enough blue light to see by when I fought him.

[warm plank]

maybe we got unlucky

[thin wing]

did you remember to keep the boiler fed with coal

[warm plank]

its semi randomized

oh that is right

[thin wing]

also to be even fairer gambeson makes the fight a lot easier and gambeson is technically stone age lol

you can easily get a full suit of gambeson before going to the archives if you don't rush like i did

anyway i hope this doesn't come off as whiny or hostile, i love the mod, i'm just tryna share feedback

[mighty nacelle]

so are blunt weapons the best to go caving with now?

seems like it counters both drifters and locusts

[thin wing]

Monsters are weak to blunt and wildlife are weak to pierce, slash is a middleground and tends to have other benefits like blocking/parrying

Notably if your weapon's attack tier is higher than the enemy's protection you do full damage so if you're using steel you can basically use whatever lol

[mighty nacelle]

here's an idea: an improved leather jerkin made out of sturdy leather

sturdy leather is steel age and this could give you a good late-game underlay that provides high blunt resist

[thin wing]

Like a post-gambeson option?

[fallow surge]

Oh... Thats a lot of messages... Will go through them later.

There is spreadsheet of how players armor affects received damage, suggest your own values. You can copy CO spread sheet and experiment with it.

[thin wing]

Hi sorry we yapped a lot lol

#1260976245374582886 message
I put some suggestions for armor balance here if you want to read them

Or if you want to tell me my ideas are dumb, that's valid too

[mighty nacelle]

I like Aerin's suggestions but I also personally think that this chart has too many 100%s. Imo any attack where (attack_tier - armor_tier) <= 2 should not be 100% damage.

And this could be maybe accomplished by adding in some small flat damage reductions like in vanilla

The idea is that some amount of armor is better than nothing

[nocturne shore]

there is 4 things capable of dealing blunt, 2 animals, basic drifter & boss

you can 100% ignore skin layer and you wont feel much difference

[mighty nacelle]

Not true, we found that higher level drifters sometimes do a lot of blunt damage

[fallow surge]

All drifters has attack with blunt damage

[fallow surge]

Left fist attack does blunt damage

[thin wing]

I still love that

I love the vibes of the small drifter doing a left jab that sends you flying and does a lot of damage even through armor

Dark souls 1 mushroom vibes, as previously stated lol

Also drifters are one of the few enemies with actually reasonably slow and telegraphed attacks so parrying it is totally doable, assuming you don't just like dodge it

[fallow surge]

I slowed down their vanilla attack animations and added new one. It seems I need to do the same with all entities...

[thin wing]

Don't overwork yourself

[fallow surge]

I wish CO will be in a playable state before 1.20 release (which is veeeeery soon) and I wont have a ton of negative feedback

Some thoughts on armor rebalancing:

[thin wing]

I like the instead blunt resistance for metal armor across the board and the jerkin/ regular gambeson buffs

Though i have to ask why does tailored linen need to be so much stronger

[fallow surge]

How usually players gets tailored linen?

[thin wing]

Tailor exclusive or just disabling class exclusive recipes

[fallow surge]

Is it the same cost of sewn?

[thin wing]

I think technically you can get them without tailor but sewing kits are very rare in loot and occasionally sold by traders so it'd be very rng

[thin wing]

Yes it's about 20-ish linen either way

[sharp rain]

afaik the tailored one costs more

[thin wing]

I think it's 16 cloth and 3 sewing kits for a full set of tailored gambeson + 4 twine (so 20 linen's worth total)

And regular gambeson is very close in cost, maybe one or two linen less

Generally if people aren't playing with class exclusive recipes or have one tailor in their group they're always gonna make tailored, while if they are playing with class exclusive recipes and aren't tailor they're locked out of the by far best blunt armor

I guess tailored technically costs like 20 more sticks but who cares lol

Plain cloth is just a linen square + stick and sewing kits are 4 flax twine + stick

[sharp rain]

it requires additional steps and resources

[thin wing]

If you don't care about dyeing the cloth tailored gambeson requires basically no more time or resources to make aside from the sticks

[sharp rain]

regular gamboised set is 10 linen + 10 twines
tailored set is 16 cloth (16 linen + 16 sticks if not dyed) + 3 twines + 3 sewing kits (12 twines + 3 sticks)

if I counted correctly - though I guess it doesn't make much difference since flax is easy to get

but sewing kits aren't

[thin wing]

Eh? I just looked at the wiki and regular gambeson was 16 linen squares... and 4 twine

[thin wing]

I highly disagree, flax is the one major resource that's largely time-gated

[sharp rain]

I've just fired up VS with CO on

[thin wing]

Ah fair enough

[sharp rain]

you get a lot from drifters, and even more from ruins

[thin wing]

One fiber every 5th drifter is "a lot"?

[sharp rain]

I'd say it's every 2nd

[halcyon spindle]

yeah not getting much from them i'm afraid, they're scrooge in my game

[sharp rain]

go deeper in a cave - regular surface drifters are too broke 😛

[halcyon spindle]

yeah i'll do that when i graduate from lamelar wood 😛

at least i got myself a tower shield

that's help

[sharp rain]

if you don't let them hit you, then you don't need armor 😛

[halcyon spindle]

yeah unfortunatly drifters are the least of our worries now

have to be careful not getting nailed by a rod or munched by thoses creepy crawlies

[fallow surge]

How hard in general is to make sturdy leather?

How far away it is in players progression?

[thin wing]

Quite since it needs steel and chromite

It's also fairly involved

[sharp rain]

I'd say it's ridiculously hard when compared to what it provides - it's the very end of "technology", cause you need steel

[halcyon spindle]

I saw that in the addition of spears you can craft pikes

damage wise they seems to be the same thing

one can be handled with one or both hands and the other is only two handed but that's it in term of comparison

is there any upside to a pike vs a spear ?

[fallow surge]

Reach

[halcyon spindle]

aaaaaah that's makes sense thx

Am i correct in assuming that the way you handle spears (adjusting it in your hand) means that you can hit further but at the same time can't hit something really close ?

had this little incident with a wolf getting too close so now i have a close range weapon in case it's too close to hit

[sharp rain]

yes

[halcyon spindle]

yeah it'll take practice to nail all the intricates part of this system

feels rewarding in the long run to see you don't "suck" at engaging like in the early stage

[fallow surge]

Released tweaks to the armor.

[halcyon spindle]

hi got an instant crash while loading a test world, and a new one

[fallow surge]

Send client-main and server-main logs

[fallow surge]

Fixed, download new version

of armory

[halcyon spindle]

alright will test right away thx

loaded in fine this time

A little question on the side, when i use Xskills together with this mod it seems to prevent the new pickaxe animation from working yet all other animation including the axe works fine

any idea where it might come from ?

[fallow surge]

If xskills changes vanilla class, then it will break pickaxe animations.

[halcyon spindle]

mmmmmh and it doesn't mess with the axe ones

by changing vanilla class you don't mean , blackguard and hunter and so on right ?

[fallow surge]

I mean in C# sense of class

[halcyon spindle]

alright, yeah might be a tussle then to figure out

[fallow surge]

Better to address it to xandu cause I have my mod's code in open access, he does not, so he can just look into my code, but I need to fiddle with decompilers.

[halcyon spindle]

Alright, will do thanks for the input

[hollow pasture]

I made all of my iron armor by hand. The crafting requirements have been reduced a lot

[fallow surge]

Do you want me to show how to work with CO animations?

[warm plank]

the roughest thing is making helmets

the smithing for helmets is pretty time intensive compared to just having 2 helve hammers slam away at plates

persoanlly i avoid making any armor that isnt plate or chain based for time sake

[mellow furnace]

I'm busy right now but I could in a couple of hours, it's that ok to you?

[fallow surge]

Yeah, ok

[vernal hornet]

Server crash and say this:

System.Exception: Error while getting stats for item 'armory:pike-plain-tinbronze' on server side: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
at CombatOverhaul.Implementations.MeleeWeaponServer..ctor(ICoreServerAPI api, Item item) in D:\Projects\VintageStory\CombatOverhaul\source\Implementations\MeleeWeapon.cs:line 1221

[fallow surge]

Update game, CO and Armory to latest versions

[mellow furnace]

I'm available now

[mellow furnace]

I gtg, will be back tomorrow

[sharp rain]

Any idea why am I getting just a general dmg info instead of any specific type (piercing. blunt, slashing)? Tbh it's always been like that. I'm not using any combat mods other than CO.

[tribal flicker]

might be a config setting

[sharp rain]

I think it's all default?

[tribal flicker]

i forgot

i changed mine

[sharp rain]

ah

[tribal flicker]

so this is intended behavior?

[hollow pasture]

You just Smith like 3 plates and stack them. After that you can just split material near the rim and hammer them up the sides. If you have a metal reclamation mod you can get a lot of it back

[warm plank]

yeah i didnt have xskills yet

honestly that mod makes everything better

[hollow pasture]

Xskills has limited compatibility with this mod

[lilac fulcrum]

Hold Alt to interact with environment while holding weapons
i think this behavior should be inverted, or at least come up with another solution

i've had to explain it to multiple friends, and i still catch myself struggling to remember to hold alt just so i can open a door

minecraft "solved" this problem by making block interactions take priority over item interactions

this is especially annoying when using shields

[fallow surge]

Tainted drifter cant do any damage to me... I guess I buffed armor too much

Corrupt too

Same for nightmare (he can only damage legs)

flat damage reduction is applied after fraction one, may be I should do it the other way round

[tribal flicker]

i was having the oppsite problem

every now and then they would get a hit that just does full damage for seemingly no reason

[fallow surge]

Update to latest version

[tribal flicker]

gotcha

so the 15hp face hits thru iron plate helmets were a bug?

what was causing it?

[fallow surge]

Blunt attack tier higher or equal to armor tier

[tribal flicker]

i see

so it was just dealing full dmg instead of going thru the reduction

[fallow surge]

The reduction was 0

[tribal flicker]

btw how does their bodypart selection work when they attack? is it random or is it based on a hitbox like our attacks are

[tribal flicker]

gotcha

idk if this is fixable but it doesnt seem right that a crawling drifter is able to hit your face with a melee

[fallow surge]

Should not be able to... Unless it is far away enough so angle is small enough.

[tribal flicker]

ill do more tests

[sharp rain]

I'm surprised you can still move

[nocturne shore]

Iron plate+ Iron chain is enough to reduce the most dangerous enemies to 1,2-1.5dmg
[Bellhead/silt shivers]
Its very strong,
but on other side, there is scale & brigadine that are not really worth using with how the system currently works, same with that leather jerkin
Plate has serious pentalies, but lighter armor is not that far off

[lilac fulcrum]

in fact, VS has already solved this problem with food. if you're eating a stack of food (holding right-click) and you end up targeting something like a door, it'll interact w/ the door before it'll continue to eat the food

[nocturne shore]

tbh, removing middle layer would make balancing a lot easier

[fallow surge]

Cant implement it, dont use vanilla way of capturing inputs, doing it before vanilla, so cant detect if there is a vanilla interaction

[lilac fulcrum]

damn that's a shame

it makes shields borderline unusable

[nocturne shore]

might be a bug but you can still throw javelins while shielding

[fallow surge]

Please stop over exaggerating all things all the time. I find shields perfectly usable, same as all the armor. Such feedback is not helpful.

[nocturne shore]

not to be annoying, but whats the use-case of scale armor

Low tier enemies are not really a threat even without armor & even steel scale wont do much against higher tier enemies
& pentaly wise is as bad as wearing plate armor which alone has higher stats than scale

Another question that intrest me,
Whats the usecase/balance of maces?
They have the same dmg&attack speed as clubs when using them in one hand.
They cant be used with both hands unlike club
And are more expensive than club

[hollow pasture]

They have faster attack speed than clubs when used in 1 hand

[nocturne shore]

is it any meaningfull % or less than 5?

From what i was testing in some primitive setup, [walking with no armor/buffs certain distance in my base/across the room] they were same with around 13 swings each

[surreal sapphire]

with damage reduction having both % and flat in the same system does have dramatically different effects based on which is applied first. Modded fallout NV (which I have played a lot) does this and having % before flat gives a much more binary system, armor will usually hard stop damage until it is too great and then let through a lot. With flat before % you still get the nice effect of small damage being completely blocked but also have a more gradual passthrough for higher damage numbers.

[nocturne shore]

something that might be usefull for users of this mod, some bonuses like somewhat recent attack speed bonus for quarterstaff for clockworks doesnt work on older world until redoing .charsel

[lilac fulcrum]

Idk how else to describe it though. The current interaction pathway feels bad enough to me to the point that I don't even want to bother using shields, as I'd rather dedicate a spot on my hotbar to them 100% of the time and only equip it when necessary (just to avoid needing to press the alt key to interact with stuff).

Like, is there a functional workaround? Is it playable? Sure. But it feels really bad (in my opinion!!)

but if it's something that can't be fixed... then... oh well i guess

[tribal flicker]

my friend also agrees with everything cat said

he doesnt like using shields with the current interaction priority; he thinks minecraft had it down and this is a step backwards

but if its impossible to change with how the mod is coded or how the game's modding APIs are then i guess its whatever

[nocturne shore]

some mobs like bighorn sheeps or shives can sprint into you and just ignore that shield even when facing them directly

they work great for checking on boars/pigs

[thin wing]

Scale has lower penalties than plate though, and is cheap to craft

And maces are noticeably faster in one hand than clubs are in one hand

[thin wing]

Sadly one thing I've learned from doing some hobby development is that people love hyperbole >w>
I try to avoid it but even I'm not immune

[surreal sapphire]

I just did a test with a friend and I can confirm that the 3rd person animations work in multiplayer.

[nocturne shore]

what you said is 100% true in vanillia

[thin wing]

It is in game in CO too i don't think the spreadsheet is updated

Or was true, maltiez has been trying to rebalance armor

Maybe it changed again but worth comparing ingame on the most recent version

I can't check rn cuz I'm on phone

[nocturne shore]

You were right

Scale is has half the pentalies of of plate armor.

[thin wing]

ye

[nocturne shore]

In game, brigadine & plate have the same pentalies

[thin wing]

Yes I'm pretty sure brigandine is meant to be cheaper/ easier to make but weaker version of plate

[halcyon spindle]

Quite hard balancing armor, there are many factors that comes into play to make it fair/rewarding

Luck is one part of it, will you stumble on enough bronze materials early or even struck iron, then again to make iron you'll have to find or make fire clay, which can take time

to get iron you'll have to deep dive into the ground to get it, process it, then forge the blooms and finaly maker those armor parts. Is it enough work to feel safe from corrupt drifters or not.

Safe to say that "monsters" should still do chip damage when you're well protected against them i think. You're still getting bruised if some eldritch horror punch you in the stomach.

[frigid kraken]

Did a multiplayer battle on a server with this mod, it was fun, and very chaotic. Very fluid too

[tribal flicker]

what weapons and armor did you use?

I'm curious what combo leads to the most interesting fights without one side having a significant advantage

[fallow surge]

Actually I can do so you will block with shield and do vanilla actions at the same time

[elder bear]

Somehow I learned to use Alt with a shield in offhand but now its much, much, much better. Thank you 🙏

[torpid snow]

Yippee!!!

[warm plank]

i just got used to using alt as well its not all that bad

maybe theres a context sensitive right click

[fallow surge]

There is setting in config to revert to using alt

[warm plank]

when i learned that you can lean spears bows and such on a wall with alt i had a waay higher opinion of the mod

and then i read the documentation

and it said everything was alt key basically

its a great mod honestly,

youre kind of taking on a task that tyron said in an interview was not high priority

[restive cove]

I heard some rumors about making combat overhaul and not only spear expansion compatible?

[fallow surge]

I know nothing about it. I wont work on it.

[restive cove]

damn

[frigid kraken]

Some of us had short swords and shields, most of us were using short swords and shields or short swords without shields. At first we were within spear range, but when it got too close we got swords out

[verbal rampart]

CO is causing issues with in world chopping developed by in dappled grove

[lilac fulcrum]

the "strong back" perk of xskills seems to cause problems w/ Combat Overhaul. not sure if its an xskills problem or a CO problem

[tribal flicker]

i think its impossible for these mods to be compatible

they affect too many of the same classes

[round pond]

I am almost certain it could be patched.

[fallow surge]

Report it to XSkills, should be solved on their end

[fallow surge]

Turn this feature off in settings, probably need to turn off axe animations in setting too

[proud orchid]

@fallow surge
Hi,
Here a first translation for exoskeletons_0.0.5 as discussed.

@fallow surge
Hi,
Here a first translation for armory_0.0.46 as discussed.

@fallow surge
Hi,
Here a first translation for combatoverhaul_0.0.136 as discussed.

Please let me know, if you receive any feedback regarding the quality of the tranylations so I knwo that I have to make better next time 🙂

I will try to prepare the other translations witin this week, but I can not guarantee this.

[fallow surge]

ok

[thin wing]

Lore-wise i operate under the assumption the seraph either has some conglomerate memories from many people, or they were taught/learned all they know before they were turned into seraphs.

In other words I'm pretty sure they're not figuring everything out as they go, they knew how to make cementation furnaces going in

Anywho uh whassat gotta do with Combat Overhaul

[elder bear]

Czech translation for:

Crossbows 0.5.16

Czech translation for:

Exoskeleton 0.0.5

Updated Czech translation for:

Combat Overhaul 0.0.134

Updated Czech translation for:

Armory 0.0.44

[lyric orchid]

i don't remember if there's a pt-br translation for your mods yet, maltiez. if there isn't would you like me to do it?

[hollow pasture]

That's kind of the ideal way of using them anyways though, they give you a hunger penalty when worn, and the heavy versions make you walk slower

[hollow pasture]

That is inaccurate. Scale head armor isn't even craftable in CO

[hollow pasture]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gURxTEH57Rk&pp=ygUYZGVxdWl0ZW0gc3BlYXIgbG9uZ3N3b3Jk
Kinda like this? 🤣

There's a challenge called "Cavemen to Cosmos" that you can probably find by hitting control+f in this server. It forbids you from doing many things until you reach certain milestones

[crystal plaza]

Hello

Nvm wrong mod

[vale orchid]

I'm sorry but what did you do to Bells? I just went into the resonance archives and hit a bell 50 times with a 1 handed polehammer and it did not die. What the fuck dude?

[fallow surge]

Hit the body not the bell

[vale orchid]

I did, the bell part was inside a bookshelf due to the "ringing" animation

The black part is what i was able to hit, the bellhead was inside the bookshelf

[fallow surge]

Dunno, just tested, dies just fine

[vale orchid]

Very weird, maybe the game didnt register the hits properly

It did flash red with each hit

[fallow surge]

You can turn on damage log in settings

No idea

[vale orchid]

Where do you have to hit the eidolon to deal damage to it??

[fallow surge]

Glowing parts or hands

[vale orchid]

Alright then

[vale orchid]

His hands can't be hit and his eye is not taking damage

1.20RC8

[fallow surge]

Send client main logs

And server-main

[vale orchid]

Where do i find them again?

Found em

There you go

[fallow surge]

You can hit them, or they receive no damage?

[vale orchid]

I cannot hit the hands at all as if they had no hitbox
The eye itself can be hit but receives 0 damage from my 2 handed steel polehammer

Relogging to test if that does anything

[fallow surge]

It probably will fix it...

[vale orchid]

0 dmg

[fallow surge]

Do you hear sound of hitting it?

[vale orchid]

Shoulders can be hit and take damage

[vale orchid]

While hitting the eye? Yes, a woody thunk

Hands have no hit indicator and when swung at do not get hit at all

[fallow surge]

Send also client-debug

[vale orchid]

Shoulder works fine

[fallow surge]

Strange, looks like some collider types were shifted

[vale orchid]

That likely affected the bell aswell then

[fallow surge]

Ok this is at least something. Previously I had no info about this bug

Yeah

Have you relogged into world without restarting the game before it?

[vale orchid]

Happy to help, i really like this mod but these two occurences really soured the moment lol

[vale orchid]

This current relog was without closing the game, I will now try a full restart of the game

[fallow surge]

Before you encoutnered the bug, have you relogged without restarting?

[vale orchid]

No, this was the first boot up of the day before then

[fallow surge]

Ok, hm. Will investigate. Restarting the game should fix it for now.

[vale orchid]

After a full restart the problem persists, hands have no hitbox, eye is invincible, only the shoulders take damage

After a while the shoulder becomes inconsistent, only taking damage on the upper arm

This is partially related, how do damage tiers work? I've been doing 3 damage to the eidolon with my T6 polehammer that 6 damage normally, the Eidolon is T4 with 2 blunt defense so I should be doing 4 damage or more shouldn't i?

[obtuse fossil]

small headsup, looks like the dev version of 0.0.136 was accidentally left in as a zip inside the version released on modDB

[fallow surge]

Strange...

[vale orchid]

Very much so, i killed it in creative now since as is it's unfeasable to wack it 150 times with hitboxes like that

I dread the mad crow fight lol

[fallow surge]

Btw, update Co to latest version

[vale orchid]

Will do!

[mighty nacelle]

Wouldn't eidolon being tier 4 make it an iron age boss instead of a bronze age boss?

[vale orchid]

Yeah and you'd think it would take more damage from steel tools rather than less

[hollow pasture]

Any spreadsheet you've seen of the damage/resistances is most likely incorrect

[vale orchid]

I haven't seen a single one and I would love to figure out how the hell damage is calculated in Vanilla VS

[royal lava]

is CO compatible with any of the Stone Age Fauna mods?

[mighty nacelle]

With all of them

They added compatibility

[royal lava]

😮 That's awesome

Extremely happy for that news 😄

[mighty nacelle]

Have fun shooting rhinos in the face with goats foot crossbow

[royal lava]

Magnificent!

[tired nexus]

Just curious cause I couldn't find anything in the search function. In an local MP server, all of our characters appear to be stuck in the 'holding a sword with two hands' pose regardless of what we are holding. Not a deal breaker by any means, just seeing if that is a known thing, or just broken for us. 😅

[thin wing]

those armor buffs came in the nick of time seeing as i sailed 12k blocks away for a story dungeon and a leftover deepslit shiver took me down to 0.1 hp x_x

wearing blackguard armor and tailored gambeson too so those baddies still hit like dump trucks lol

[warm plank]

@vale orchid i think the issue with the bizarre hitboxes is caused by the very head of the warhammer being what applies the damage. if the model swipes and hits anything but the weakspot then you will get no damage

thats what i found out in my testing

you need reliable point style attacks like thrusts from swords or spears

swings actually can hit the arms though not sure if that was a bug

[royal lava]

Cutting trees with this is really painful. Is there any way to remove or change how the woodcutting works with this? I can't seem to find a config but I might be doing something wrong 😅

[thin wing]

What's so painful about it? It's basically the same speed

[royal lava]

Maybe it's from one of the mods I have installed, it took me 5+ minutes to cut down a 2x2 tree the size of an old growth oak tree.

I've not tried redwood

[thin wing]

With a stone axe I'm assuming?

[royal lava]

With a steel axe

In creative

[thin wing]

It's taken about as long as it does without the mod for me

[royal lava]

For smaller 1x1 trees yes

but for bigger 2x2 trunk trees no, or at least the ones I tried

[thin wing]

Maybe 2x2 trees are bugged

[royal lava]

It also happened with some larger normal pine trees

[mighty nacelle]

Yeah take an iron axe to a redwood, it's much slower with CO

[thin wing]

Makes more sense to let maltiez know 2x2 trees are bugged instead of just asking to disable the feature, no?

And/or really large trees

[mighty nacelle]

Also you can disable that feature with config lib

(but yeah large trees are an issue)

[royal lava]

Noted, I didn't realize his mods were all in config lib, I thought he still had regular configs

How does that play with servers? Rather, how do I as the server owner set up the config to transfer to the server

[royal lava]

I did a bit more testing and it appears to work fine on single trees but the trees that form a large canopy end up connected together, or very close to it. My assumption is this ends up causing the woodcutting to try and calculate the "cut time" for all of the connected blocks and trees, even though it's only cutting one tree. I mention this is because it'll take some leaves off the other trees and sometimes a bit of wood, but doesn't ever cut other trees down unless they're very close.

It doesn't appear to be this mod causing this, but some issue in the tree cutting calculation. Idk to what degree CO changes the treecutting calculations, if at all.

[tribal flicker]

i experienced this bug as well

[fallow surge]

Send client-main and server-main logs after reproducing the bug

[thin wing]

Good morning maltiez

[fallow surge]

Hi

[thin wing]

It's 4am and I'm bored lol

[obtuse rune]

Above time (04:00 EST) in your local time · Jan 13, 2025, 9:00 AM

[thin wing]

So I'm just squatting on discord

[fallow surge]

Was it happening for all players at once? Does restarting the game helped on specific players? Does restarting the server helped?

[tired nexus]

It is consistent across all players regardless of restarts for myself as host as well as players. We are using quite a few mods though so I expect it to be some kind of compatibility issue, not anything wrong with your mod. I will get you a mod list as well as long files next time we play.

I'll also see if I can replicate it with only combat overhaul and let you know what I find.

Thanks for the reply!

[fallow surge]

Dont think it is a compatibility issue. Try reproducing the bug, and then updating CO to lastest version and reproducing it again.

[gentle bane]

Is there a way to bind specific directional attack to key?

[fallow surge]

Nope

[gentle bane]

I think it happends when players come in/out of render distance

Player gets disconnected when blocking and dying with two handed sword (in this case, it happended to others idk what were they doing)

13.1.2025 12:42:48 [Notification] Last player disconnected, compacting large object heap...
13.1.2025 12:42:49 [Notification] UDP: client disconnected Dexapnow
13.1.2025 12:42:49 [Event] Player Dexapnow got removed. Reason: Threw an exception at the server
13.1.2025 12:42:49 [Error] Exception: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
   at CombatOverhaul.MeleeSystems.MeleeDamagePacket.Attack(ICoreServerAPI api) in D:\Projects\VintageStory\CombatOverhaul\source\Framework\MeleeSystems\MeleeAttackDamageType.cs:line 34
   at Vintagestory.Server.NetworkChannel.<>c__DisplayClass6_0`1.<SetMessageHandler>b__0(Packet_CustomPacket p, IServerPlayer player) in VintagestoryLib\Server\API\NetworkChannel.cs:line 55
   at Vintagestory.Server.NetworkAPI.HandleCustomPacket(Packet_Client packet, ConnectedClient client) in VintagestoryLib\Server\API\NetworkAPI.cs:line 55
   at Vintagestory.Server.ServerMain.HandleClientPacket(ConnectedClient client, Byte[] data) in VintagestoryLib\Server\ServerMainNetworking.cs:line 154
   at Vintagestory.Server.ServerMain.ProcessNetMessage(NetIncomingMessage msg, NetServer mainSocket) in VintagestoryLib\Server\ServerMainNetworking.cs:line 147```

[fallow surge]

Is it reproducable?

[gentle bane]

yeah, I did it many times and this one was when hosting locally

I don't know if blocking is causing it specifically but before disconecting I did attack -> block/parry -> die -> get disconnected

[fallow surge]

Reproduce in creative and send client-main and server-main logs

[thin wing]

I have a problem

I made a gun and a crossbow but melee combat is so fun in this mod i never use them

Greatsword go swoosh

[fallow surge]

This has more sensible crash, try out this version please

[fallow surge]

Even for hunting?

[thin wing]

I hunt by screaming while chasing after goats with a greatsword

Blackguard increased sword attack speed + melee damage means i can blender most animals with the montante before they can run far lol

Sometimes I'll take a shot if they run out of range though to finish them off

I had an idea to balance blackguard btw

Clockmaker has increased reload speed right?

[gentle bane]

it's fine, blackguard is already op in vanilla

[thin wing]

Blackguard should probably get a reload speed penalty

The shakier aim doesn't feel like much of a nerf to their ranged capability IMO

[thin wing]

I mean fair but CO is already so nice to my beloved blackguard by removing the ranged damage penalty and making blackguard even less affected by armor
Changes i do love btw

But I'm biased as a blackguard main lol

I do love that blackguard really feels like a soldier with the buffs and especially sword proficiency

[gentle bane]

doesn't crash

Being able to bind specific attack would be cool.

[fallow surge]

Quite hard to do actually, will need a rewrite of a lot of stuff. Also there are 8 possible directions, so you will need 8 key combinations.

[thin wing]

Up, down, left, right for two-handed swords
Up, bottom left and bottom right for axes
Up and down for spears/pikes
Idk what I'm missing lol

I do got two extra mouse buttons and I'd love a specific button just for thrusts since those are the ones i have the hardest time using in combat but i totally understand if it's a pain in the ass to implement

[gentle bane]

blocking to cancel animations allows for faster attack speed

[thin wing]

Damn we getting block cancels now

The funny thing is even bigass AAA games have problems like this lol

Skyrim of all things literally has this same bug where you can attack faster with block cancels

[gentle bane]

I wouldn't say that this is an issue becasue different attacks have different timings for optimal dps and not being able to always choose thrust fixes that

[fallow surge]

WIll kinda fix it anyway

[fallow surge]

May be somewhere in disctant future

[fallow surge]

Enjoy your longer reload speed, btw

[thin wing]

Huzzah the

The consequences of my own actions

Lol

[fallow surge]

Oh, just noticed, you are using nohands mod

[gentle bane]

yeah, but it's not client side

On close range (idk like 1m?) side to side and top slash attack doesn't hit enemies

[fallow surge]

It might be that you just hitting them with your hands instead of sword

[gentle bane]

Thrusting attack supperiority

[fallow surge]

Fixed, should be client side now

[hollow pasture]

Even marvel rivals let's you attack with slow swinging melee characters by hitting the normal melee button in between attacks. It's nuts

[tired nexus]

Will do. I'll try to get guys on tonight to test.

[tired nexus]

Huh, we've been just ignoring it so I haven't thought to pay attention to that. I'll take that into account when testing.

[frigid kraken]

@fallow surge are we gonna get a polearm brace feature like bannerlord and other medieval combat games have. Like where you can stick a long polearm like a pike or halberd forward and when something runs into it while charging you they take damage? I think it'd be really cool for the multiplayer CO server I'm on to be able to pike phalanx bears (or people)

[simple comet]

Weird issue, I reloaded the simple crossbow while strafing, in high wind, and the bolt seems to "float" now.

Not a harmful bug, but I certainly raised an eyebrow!

Restarting the game fixed it.

[vast ember]

I have a question, can you make the shields, like the heavy one have diffrent color based on dyed leather you are using?

[vast ember]

nvm, didn't updated my mod

[mighty nacelle]

hey, I think leather armor is incorrectly balanced. Leather armor in vanilla gives you no movement debuff but in CO it gives you a lot of debuff.

The whole point of using leather armor is that it's cheap and lacks movement penalty

[gentle bane]

nvm it also happened on my client's side, I'm holding everything like if it was two handed sword

[sharp rain]

How much dmg does that bucket do? I guess it's blunt? :p

[wild torrent]

If filled, splash.

If filled with vinegar, splash plus blindness.

😏

[delicate ocean]

Fought a bunch of wolves, they are manageable when you kite but you cant attack after blocking without the hit being a trade even with a fast weapon. Maybe a successful parry could stun an enemy or if that isnt feasible knock them back a bit. Also the directional indicator looks off, likely because unlike the crosshairs it has gradient edges instead of a clear outline.

[lilac fulcrum]

what attack types do enemies use? do bears use slash? crush? are bowtorns and shivers piercing?

[wild torrent]

Damage log should give info on that, and if not, there's a command that can show all debug info during combat, but I forget what it is.. if someone knows it, please put it in a reply. ;2)

[fallow surge]

Were you reloading the world without restarting the game?

[gentle bane]

I was smithing

[fallow surge]

Is it no or yes?

[gentle bane]

It's no, I always restart the game after leaving server becasue ram leaks

[glossy vessel]

Hey Maltiez,
Great mods!
Thanks for your efforts and I appreciate the tweak around the right click interaction on weapons and shields recently. Makes a big difference imo 🙂

After 90 hrs on my current save, I fired my first firearm, an arquebus!
Had a pistol ready to go just never found sulphur or a commodity trader for that long 😦

It's probably already been mentioned but there might be an issue on maniqins. Putting a second layer of headgear seems to create a visual clone of one of the headgears at waist height on the dummy.

Specifically, covered iron helm and the padded cloth helmet is what i noticed it on

[fallow surge]

I need to rewrite armor stands, just haven't done it yet

[glossy vessel]

Understood. I imagine it could be quite tricky to add layers to it smoothly

[frigid kraken]

Yo do the greaves in the foot slot cover most of the leg like their appearance conveys or just the feet?

[obtuse fossil]

the tooltip should say what limb(s) a piece of armor protects

it'll also appear in multiple slots at once when equipped if it covers multiple body parts

[gentle bane]

What about sword sheath, javelins and arrows have dedicated belt storage clothing so why not swords.

[thin wing]

because your melee weapons need to be in the hotbar and there's no way to add extra hotbar slots with bags

ammo, extra javelins, or the bits and bobs for firearms work fine from the inventory but why would i need to carry extra swords in my backpack that i can't access without doing inventory fiddling?

melee weapons are either on the hotbar or unusable lol

[restive cove]

bug with the animation on certain weapons

all I did was punch someone and now my hand is stuck like this except when mining

mining looks fine

[restive cove]

only fixes when I die

[dusty orchid]

i encountered the bug with not being able to hit any enemies with weapons (unsure of melee, but i threw spears at a drifter multiple times, spears going right through with no knockback). where should i post the logs?

[tight dome]

I'll duplicate it here just in case as I saw that better to send feedback here than on ModDB

I'm curious how **armor **works. For example, I can wear brigantine and camisole at same time as they are on different armor layers. Does their armor points stack or it works like "outer layer takes damage first, then inner layers when outer is broken"?
And about hit detection. It works only for ranged weapons (throwing spear, bows and etc.) or for melee too? Is there point to try for example aim in head with spear in melee or doesn't work? And will be there any **marker **(sound or visual effect) that player has hitted weak spot or particular body part?

I really like this mod for new combat things and axe-pickaxe mechanic and stuff that adds second mod!

[mighty nacelle]

• Armor has three different types of defense: slashing, piercing, and blunt. Metal protects you from slashing and piercing, while leather/gambeson underlays protect you from blunt. Vanilla armors are all made with some combination of metal + pelt/leather so they're given defenses for all three stats. As for durability I think that all armor in the part of your body that gets hit takes the durability damage (like vanilla but with more slots).
• Hit detection works for both melee and ranged. It uses the first person animation of the weapon and detects if it collides with the enemy, and if so which part of the enemy. You can land headshots with melee just as with ranged.
• No marker as far as I know. You could enable damage log to see if it hit, but the log is laggy for some reason.

[finite ember]

not sure if it is what you were seeking, but I've made a mod that allows you to make dyed armor with leaher, regular gambeson and brigandine while retaining their vanilla stats and the recipes (kinda late to answer srry)

[hollow pasture]

No, I was discussing a plan to add a sort of visor overlay that obscures vision slightly whilst using plate helmets, with the ability to raise the visor to gain some visibility at the cost of protection

[finite ember]

oh, thats a cool idea

[vast ember]

Are you guys planning on adding a cattle helmet? Or some different plate helmet variations?

[tiny merlin]

the log update time might be a Magic Numbers.txt (or whatever it's called) thing

I know I saw it recently but I'll have to check again

[mighty nacelle]

Guys, our beloved leather armor has a -15% movement penalty. We need to start a movement to fix this.

why does leather leg armor have -10% that's insane

chain armor has a smaller movement penalty than leather armor

remember that in vanilla, leather armor doesn't even have a movement penalty

[fallow surge]

Leather plate armor is considered heavy armor

[mighty nacelle]

why?

[fallow surge]

Why not?

[mighty nacelle]

in vanilla it's basically worse and cheaper gambeson

[fallow surge]

Vanilla has fantasy trope leather armor, I just follow more realistic approach.

[mighty nacelle]

ok but giving it such a high movement speed penalty makes it useless

like straight up

in vanilla it's super cheap to make so it's usually a good transition armor

[fallow surge]

Leather jerkin is light underarmor cheaper than gambezon

Leather plate armor is proepr plate armor from heavy stiff leather

It is on par with copepr chain + plate armor, just have more blunt isntead of piercing

[mighty nacelle]

leather is much much lighter than copper though

Like i get why it should have some penalty

but plate level penalty seems ridiculous to me

[fallow surge]

Proper leather armor is heavier than metal armor irl

[mighty nacelle]

is this really a case where realism trumps gameplay? This change seems to defeat the entire purpose of actually making leather armor in-game

[fallow surge]

Full leather armor is better than lamellar armor with almost the same penalties.

[mighty nacelle]

...is that realistic?

like seriously, would a set of leather plate armor protect me more than like bronze lamellar?

[fallow surge]

It is actually. Copper is not great metal for armor. But irl it is hard to get proper leather plates, so it is usually leather lamellar, but we have leather plates model in game.

[mighty nacelle]

sure the model is leather plate but if you compare the recipes leather torso vs jerkin is a difference of 8 leather

I still don't get this

[fallow surge]

You think leather armor is op?

[mighty nacelle]

Honestly? Yeah. I think that assigning it to be like better than lamellar and with the level of penalty you get from plate armor completely changes its purpose from vanilla and is confusing.

I think it should basically just be improved jerkin in terms of stats.

but it takes up all those slots

also just realized that jerkin has more blunt protection than leather armor

that doesn't make sense to me either

[fallow surge]

Why? Right now it is proper armor, an alternative to copper lamellar if you have access to enough leather

Jerkin is proper underarmor

Leather armor are stiff plates

[mighty nacelle]

ah well, I don't know enough about irl armor to argue this

I just feel like the armor is miscategorized from my experience using leather armor in vanilla

[fallow surge]

The whole armor system is reworked, it should not be suprising that armor changed its purpose

Like gambezon is not light armor any more, it is underarmor and supplier of blunt protection.

same with jerkin

And leather armor now is proper heavy/medium armor

[fallow surge]

If leather armor is op, why should I reduce the penalties, btw?

Ok, this combination is better than bronze lamellar which is not good...

May be I need to buff lamellar somewhat.

Ugh... this balancing thing is hard

[frigid kraken]

I wish the vambraces and greaves were craftable in the grid with plates

I mean, they're basically just plates bent slightly

[fallow surge]

You can use bringandine armor for cheaper and easier recipes

[frigid kraken]

The leather cost pains me!

Btw, is this compatible with that one mod that adds dyed brigandine?

[fallow surge]

Leather is quite easy to get resource, and brigandine is not that expensive actually.

[frigid kraken]

True leather is easy, but nonetheless it pains me to make leather

[mighty nacelle]

leather is basically just a function of whether or not you have lime

lamellar is nice because it doesn't need lime

[royal lava]

Yes, hardened leather armor is normally a lot harder to pierce and provides more blunt resistance than bronze, which will buckle and bend under the pressure as bronze is heavier and weaker than steel. - A blacksmith who has worked with a lot of bronze in the last 10 years.
(Sorry to revive a dead conversation)

[mighty nacelle]

you know what? we keep mentioning hardened leather

why not use sturdy leather for that?

it's a vanilla item now and it's steel age

so if you want hardened leather plate you could implement a sturdy leather set that does that

and then keep normal leather armor as improved jerkin

[royal lava]

I wouldn't disagree with that

Although keep base leather as a transition for gameplay purposes

[mighty nacelle]

yeah that's what I want out of this

and because sturdy leather is steel age it makes sense gameplay wise to make it on par with metal armor

[royal lava]

Normally "leather" armor is treated to be harder in some way, it's not untreated leather to my knowledge. Any of the leather armor I've seen is either layered like lamellar or if it's hardened leather it's a single larger piece (or multiple) that is treated to be hard.
I'm not 100% positive, but it might be that leather armor in general is treated.
I'm an armchair historian when it comes to leather, but I do have extensive knowledge of metalworking so I can make more solid comments on that.

[mighty nacelle]

part of hte problem is that you craft both leather armor and jerkin out of the exact same material

like leather armor is literally just jerkin with ~50% more of hte same material in terms of crafting

[royal lava]

I see Maltiez's approach here as well though gameplay wise

I've not looked at the stats personally though

[mighty nacelle]

here lemme show you one sec

[royal lava]

Appreciate it ❤️

[fallow surge]

If you want to make new recipes with treated leather (achievable in copper age) you can always make a pull request.

[mighty nacelle]

if I made a pull request I'd rather try to make a set of sturdy leather plate armor

but I'm shit at art

so that probably won't happen

[fallow surge]

steel age leather armor makes no sense gameplay wise

[royal lava]

It doesn't, no.

[mighty nacelle]

Leather Jerkin vs Leather Armor vs Bronze Lamellar
Combined Walk speed: -4% | -15% | -10%
Piercing per part: 1 | 2 | 5
Slashing per part: 1 | 4 | 5
Blunt per part:    4 | 3 | 5

also I just noticed that tin bronze lamellar helmet has blunt set to 43

which I assume is a typo

[fallow surge]

15%? It is 10

Update CO to latest version

Also just released buff to lamellar

[mighty nacelle]

is .139 not the latest version?

[fallow surge]

It was...

Now it is 140

[mighty nacelle]

mk lemme update one sec

[royal lava]

He works so fast

[mighty nacelle]

leather armor is still -15% movement

I really don't know why the leg armor is -10% movement

[fallow surge]

Ah, you mean both of them combined

[mighty nacelle]

yeah like that on its own is a -10% movement penalty

and then the torso gives extra -5%

so full leather gives you -15%

I've seen football players wear similar shin guards and run at full speed

but I know the model is not 100% accurate

[fallow surge]

Ok, fine, I'll make it the same as scale

[mighty nacelle]

that's much better, thank you

fighting drifters in lamellar feels better now

there's a bug where sometimes with shield you can't attack with one handed weapon

it seems to happen when I use an item and then switch back to the one handed weapon wihle shield is still equipped

but that doesn't reliably replicate it

it might also have to do with taking damage?

[fallow surge]

Will look into it later

[sinful panther]

Huh

[sinful panther]

It's prolly switching mid animation

So how'd that start with "leather armor is weak, 15% movement penalty is too much!" and went to "it's Op but you should buff it anyways" like cmon

[mighty nacelle]

I never said that its protection stats should be buffed

In fact I would take a nerf to its stats in exchange for better movement speed

I think you're misunderstanding me

My bad

[gentle bane]

I had it happend when I was holding rmb and switching to anything that can parry/block, I wasn't able to attack untill I switched weapon

Also players can still quickly switch to other weapons to gain attack speed

[sinful panther]

I didn't specify the buff but yeah, in this case it would've been the movement speed

I'd say the speed penalty is fine, it is a plate substitute after all, just has to have the negative be properly spread between the pieces; the leg armor by itself is a -10% whilst the whole torso is a -5%

[mighty nacelle]

It's not supposed to be a plate substitute though

The intended function of leather armor is as a way to travel the surface safer

[sinful panther]

I don't mean it literally, it's in the same slots

[mighty nacelle]

Like wolf bite insurance

Yeah I get that

[sinful panther]

That's the job for gambesons and jerkin, this is hard armor

[mighty nacelle]

No no, those are underlays for higher tier metal armor

Leather armor is for enough protection for the surface but not for combining with metal armor

Surface protection shouldn't allow you down much, it's meant for traveling

[sinful panther]

Yeah, underlays are light, easy to use for travelling, the only real other option in place being mailles

[mighty nacelle]

Ok but leather armor should serve the purpose of when you're traveling and want something better than an underlay but not something that should slow you down

That's what it's for in vanilla

[sinful panther]

Even tho this armor is presented in light fantasy for the game, it's better to have it in the mod as a starter for hard armor

[sinful panther]

In vanilla we don't have layers nor Jerkin

[mighty nacelle]

And the leather armor leg is literally just shin guards why should that slow you down 10%

[sinful panther]

the competition is only the gambeson, that in this mod, can still be worn under

[mighty nacelle]

Ok but in vanilla you still use leather armor as a way of protecting you mainly on the surface without impeding movement

[sinful panther]

And to be quite frank, for the stats it has, you're paying a worthwhile cost in CO

[elder bear]

Possible bug:
When sneaking around and then press 'run' key to sneak faster, after that you have to realease 'Sneak' key to be able to throw spear or jevelin.

[mighty nacelle]

So nerf the stats

Leather armor is crafted in a way that would presume slightly better jerkin

[sinful panther]

For the most part as i see it, it's still going to be fairly ignored as the steep cost in leather is much more than you'd afford in the early game anyhow, i've found it simpler to make copper plates or depend on dodging & spears(or a shield if you're a freak)

[mighty nacelle]

Leather is cheap if you have lime

[sinful panther]

That's only the nature of crafting in a grid, nothing to be done about it

The jerkin's balance doesn't have any correlation to this piece

[mighty nacelle]

Literally once you have lime you can make all the leather you want

Oak is easily found and renewable and animals are abundant

[sinful panther]

You're dealing with time as a resource

[mighty nacelle]

That's the same concept with the other armors though

Like lamellae is still more time intensive than leather

And more resources

[sinful panther]

And those provide better value, you're progressing metal tiers and getting better armor

[mighty nacelle]

Ah well, this is getting nowhere. Maltiez is already giving leather scale speed debuff so the problem is solved

[sinful panther]

going back to the leather plate, i don't much of a reason to buff it, even less so of a reason for a nerf, give it a try and you'll see that it protects much more than expected 👍

being VERY sincere i don't see the appeal of meddling with stats thinking of vanilla usages in a mod called Combat Overhaul

[mighty nacelle]

I do. I care about how progression works for early game players.

Vanilla is built with that in mind, so why not CO too

[sinful panther]

and it still is, they're more protected in the leather plate now than they ever dreamed of before

[mighty nacelle]

Ok but they have no reason to use leather when lamellar is as good and doesn't slow them down as much

Which is crazy to think that metal armor slows you down less than leather

But I guess I'm the crazy one here

[sinful panther]

That's a metal cost...

[mighty nacelle]

No lime needed, lime is more precious than tin bronze

I can get tin bronze day 3

[sinful panther]

Ooh damn, checking stats, found a bugged one

[mighty nacelle]

Yeah I pointed out that but and it's fixed now

Most recent version

[sinful panther]

dope

[restive cove]

Involved Harmony IDs: CombatOverhaul, CombatOverhaulAuto System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object. at Vintagestory.GameContent.EntityShapeRenderer.RenderItem(Single dt, Boolean isShadowPass, ItemStack stack, AttachmentPointAndPose apap, ItemRenderInfo renderInfo) in VSEssentials\EntityRenderer\EntityShapeRenderer.cs:line 450 at Vintagestory.GameContent.EntityPlayerShapeRenderer.RenderHeldItem(Single dt, Boolean isShadowPass, Boolean right) in VSEssentials\EntityRenderer\EntityPlayerShapeRenderer.cs:line 261 at Vintagestory.GameContent.EntityPlayerShapeRenderer.DoRender3DOpaque_Patch1(EntityPlayerShapeRenderer this, Single dt, Boolean isShadowPass) at Vintagestory.Client.NoObf.SystemRenderEntities.OnRenderFrameShadows(Single dt) in VintagestoryLib\Client\Systems\Render\RenderEntities.cs:line 174 at Vintagestory.Client.NoObf.ClientMain.TriggerRenderStage(EnumRenderStage stage, Single dt) in VintagestoryLib\Client\ClientMain.cs:line 814 at Vintagestory.Client.NoObf.ClientMain.MainRenderLoop(Single dt) in VintagestoryLib\Client\ClientMain.cs:line 825 at Vintagestory.Client.GuiScreenRunningGame.RenderToPrimary(Single dt) in VintagestoryLib\Client\MainMenu\Screens\GuiScreenRunningGame.cs:line 161 at Vintagestory.Client.ScreenManager.Render(Single dt) in VintagestoryLib\Client\ScreenManager.cs:line 695 at Vintagestory.Client.ScreenManager.OnNewFrame(Single dt) in VintagestoryLib\Client\ScreenManager.cs:line 670 at Vintagestory.Client.NoObf.ClientPlatformWindows.window_RenderFrame(FrameEventArgs e) in

at Vintagestory.Client.NoObf.ClientPlatformWindows.window_RenderFrame(FrameEventArgs e) in VintagestoryLib\Client\ClientPlatform\GameWindow.cs:line 92 at OpenTK.Windowing.Desktop.GameWindow.Run() at Vintagestory.Client.ClientProgram.Start(ClientProgramArgs args, String[] rawArgs) in VintagestoryLib\Client\ClientProgram.cs:line 334 at Vintagestory.Client.ClientProgram.<>c__DisplayClass10_0.<.ctor>b__1() in VintagestoryLib\Client\ClientProgram.cs:line 130 at Vintagestory.ClientNative.CrashReporter.Start(ThreadStart start) in VintagestoryLib\Client\ClientPlatform\ClientNative\CrashReporter.cs:line 93

[mighty nacelle]

Can you please edit this so it's code? Like:
```
log
```

[restive cove]

wym

like that?

[mighty nacelle]

Yeah

[restive cove]

also here's the crash log

[simple comet]

I absolutely love the third person firearms reload animations that I've seen so far! They look great!

[hollow pasture]

Problem is I've been so busy that I've been too stressed to figure out how to model the shape I'm looking for.

[hollow pasture]

But brigandine armor is fine?

[mighty nacelle]

I don't know anymore man I'll be honest

[lavish geyser]

Anyone who uses XSkills in conjunction with Combat Overhaul, are there any skills/perks that are under Combat (or another category I'm not considering) that seem incompatible?

For the RP server I'm co-developing we wanted to use Combat Overhaul, but XSkills is essential to a server-side patch we're using to control progression, so I want to make sure any skills or perks that are incompatible with CO are disabled at start/not considered for that patch.

[frigid kraken]

Anybody here got advice for fighting a more armoured, but numerically inferior opponent, with your own group of numerous, but unarmored and under equipped guys using combat overhaul armoury weapons. I'm not quite sure if the pikes and other long stabby weapons in this mod will be useful when used en-masse against an armoured foe, so I'm deferring to the experience of the others using this mod.

[thin wing]

Depends what you mean by an armored opponent, do you mean pvp?

The mod isn't really balanced for pvp but if you mean a player in like, full steel plate + chain + tailored gambeson they're probably weakest to blunt, but if you're using weak blunt weapons you're just not going to scratch them

[lavish geyser]

Not based on actual experience with PvP in the mod, but I'd assume using clubs or quarterstaves (whichever provide you more reach) would be the most economically efficient means of combatting more armored but numerically inferior opponents.

Pikes would be my second best guess, particularly if used in conjunction with clubs. Pikes can compensate for your lack of armor by buying yourself more time to get more swings in before the armored opponent closes in. In fact, because you won't have the penalties of armor slowing you down, you can probably effectively kite them with pikes.

And while plate armor provides a lot of pierce resistance, gambeson does not, nor does chainmail.

So between the three damage types (other than blunt) it's probably one of the more effective damage types against a fully armored player.

Slash feels pretty useless in PvP except for duels where parrying might come into play, since chainmail AND plate provide slash resistance.

Which, feels fairly accurate.

[thin wing]

I think last i checked, steel plate + steel chain + tailored gambeson was like 14 or so bash protection, 16ish pierce and like 22 slash

Though the numbers may have been adjusted

[lavish geyser]

I think it's 12 bash, but I could be wrong. I think tailored gambeson had 8 blunt res last I checked and the highest tier plate provided 4.

But I last checked a few weeks ago now, maybe a month ago almost.

[thin wing]

Metal armor did have its bash protection buffed

[lavish geyser]

Ah

[thin wing]

So did tailored gambeson actually, it's 10 now

[lavish geyser]

I remember when I first tried the mod, tailored gambeson provided like, 12 bash protection lmao

which combined with steel plate, basically meant that even a steel warhammer did like 0 damage

You were quite literally invincible in steel armor + tailored gambeson in that version.

Piercing, slash, blunt, nothing could hurt you.

Except fall damage or fire I guess.

[lavish geyser]

Balancing is pretty much a full time job and requires a lot of visioning, and no implementation will feel perfect in all situations.

In the long term, when you have more time or help, adding config options for things like adjusting armor values for each metal tier + armor type (plate, brig, chain) would allow players to adjust the balance according to their own/their server's tastes, which would ease the burden on you. But, setting that up will require its own investment of time.

So, it depends on how much time and frustration you think you'd be saving long term, at a short-term implementation cost, compared to the time and frustration you'd otherwise be having by perfecting those decisions yourself as the mod continues development, and the potential backlash you get when those decisions don't align with certain players.

[frigid kraken]

Your pike kiting strategy sounds very interesting. If I had more time to test it and train people in it, it might prove useful

[lavish geyser]

Your biggest issue will be if the person you're fighting, also has a pike/spear, and counteracts the range advantage you're giving yourself while ALSO having the armor advantage.

[thin wing]

I think if someone is maxed armor in steel your only hope of doing literally any damage is firearms. Probably a musket

[lavish geyser]

If that's the case though, you could try using regular spears with heavy shields and your best helmet possible (without the rest of your armor being heavy.)

[frigid kraken]

They got meteoric iron

All my weapons are plain iron

[thin wing]

Player weapons do so little damage per hit I'm not sure any of them would actually do damage

[lavish geyser]

Since the heavy shield will cover your whole body for less penalty than a full suit of armor, and the helmet will make up for your only real weak point without compromising mobility much at all.

And the spear still provides the ability to outrange most weapons short of a pike/halberd.

[frigid kraken]

Hmm, I'm not sure I could make heavy shields fast enough

[lavish geyser]

And, at the end of the day, you could field many troops with a heavy helmet + shield + spear setup than one troop with a full suit of equivalent metal armor.

[frigid kraken]

How many torso hits with an iron mace kills someone in full meteoric armor?

[thin wing]

Are they wearing tailored gambeson underneath?

[frigid kraken]

No! The fools have no flax!

[thin wing]

Most bash armor comes from the underlayer of gambeson or jerkin

[frigid kraken]

Ok now we're cooking with oil

[lavish geyser]

Oh yeah, if they have no tailored gambeson or gambeson at all, blunt is an easy win.

You could literally throw stones at them and kill them that way probably lmfao

Not actually. Don't try that. 💀

[frigid kraken]

Wait...

[lavish geyser]

Though

[frigid kraken]

If my guys are all in a tower

And we all throw stones

[thin wing]

Plate does have some bash protection, i think meteoric iron is about 5

[lavish geyser]

The idea of a peasant mob stoning a knight to death is kind of funny

[frigid kraken]

Could we beat back the for

[lavish geyser]

Very Mount and Blade vibes.

[frigid kraken]

Foe*

[thin wing]

Pretty sure stones will still do 0

[lavish geyser]

Ripperino

Well, clubs should definitely bash through that plate, I'd think.

[frigid kraken]

Damn... Man my fief is so doomed if I can't beat these knights

[thin wing]

5 peasants with hammers

[frigid kraken]

Ok is there anything I can hit them with from a distance with blunt damage?

[thin wing]

Guns

[frigid kraken]

We cant afford guns

[thin wing]

Firearms do blunt damage (strangely)

[frigid kraken]

In already stretched thin as it is with giving out spears to half the brigands and naredowells in a 10 mile radius

[thin wing]

Idk if maltiez touched the sling yet since that does piercing damage in vanilla, check that in the handbook

Otherwise no

[frigid kraken]

Could anvils insta kill

If they were dropped from a tower

On top of the enemies head?

[lavish geyser]

lmfao

[frigid kraken]

I'm talking, wile-e-coyote tactics

[lavish geyser]

yeah i also find this interesting. i wish there were different types of projectile they could shoot that provide pierce OR blunt damage. would be nice if there were such a thing as blunt arrows that had less damage/velocity, as goofy as that sounds, but an actual functional sling (or tier of slings) with respective stone/metal ammo (like the lead ball ammo for slings added by one mod, i forget which) would be a nice alternative for blunt ranged damage that doesn't require firearms.

Considering the resource cost of firearms, it would be nice if they had two ammo types (blunt/pierce) whereas every other ranged weapon was locked into one type, but have slings as an alternative for blunt.

[thin wing]

TBF most firearms are high enough tier they blow past wildlife defense anyway except like grizzly bears

[lavish geyser]

Keep bows as slash (maybe pierce if different arrow types were added, i.e. broadhead for slash versus bodkin for pierce), crossbows as pierce, slings for blunt and firearms for blunt/pierce.

[lavish geyser]

That's fair

[thin wing]

I assume they do blunt damage so they're useful for monsters

[lavish geyser]

Yeah that makes sense

And because it's a gap not filled in by crossbows or bows

[frigid kraken]

Does armor prevent fire damage? And if not, how can I light the foe on fire without having to run up with a torch?

[lavish geyser]

I don't think it does, no. I remember stepping into boiling water from a hot spring in full metal armor and dying pretty much instantly lmao

But you can't move boiling water even with the aqueducts mod, since that converts it to regular water.

So, no shenanigans there.

[frigid kraken]

ok how do I make

A pit of boiling water

[thin wing]

You'll have to trick your friend into falling into a pit kiln, you can't really throw fire at people

[lavish geyser]

LOL

[thin wing]

You can't

[lavish geyser]

That's such a devious and funny idea

[frigid kraken]

Damn it..

[thin wing]

Boiling water is in hot springs only and you can't move it

[frigid kraken]

You people are my (unpaid) tacticians, you're supposed to be giving me ANSWERS

Alright are there any other forms of damage not blocked by armor?

[lavish geyser]

Maybe utilize cave-ins, if the server has them enabled.

Pretty sure those bypass armor.

At worst, they'll royally fuck somebody up. At best, they'll kill them.