Bilingual books

[granite orbit]

Need to find a company that binds using this equipment. Would be cool to have really nice hardcovers. Cheap perfect bound paperbacks and nice hardcovers would be a good combo. https://smythusa.com/

Lulu hardcover just showed up too. freakin christmas around here.

Lulu is basically doing the same type of hardcover binding as Ingram.

(Ingram here = Lightning Source, a subsidiary of them that does printing)

Lulu didn't screw up the font on the cover dustjacket.

The cover of the hardcover linen is green. I thought i chose something else. They each give a few different options.

Lulu can stamp fewer characters on the spine than Ingram, so you can't have as much text (e.g. I didn't have room for "French & English").

Ingram puts the ISBN on the back linen cover. Lulu just leaves it blank.

The dustjacket color from Lulu is different from all the other copies. It is the lightest. The other 3 books all look pretty close, but this one is quite a bit different.

There is a white stripe on the front cover that is part of the spine. So the alignment is off there (could be me or them, not sure).

The actual "linen" each company uses is quite different. Lulu feels like actual linen, the Ingram is like almost rubbery type of surface feel.

[granite orbit]

https://mixam.com Does Smyth and is Lulu-esque. Only company I can find that does Smyth that doesn't require buying a bunch, setting up a meeting with the company, etc. They can even do cool things like adding a ribbon to the book, which is sewn in and can be used as a book mark. Also colored head and tail bands (like thread/cloth at the top/bottom of the spine). Neat-o. Expensive tho....

Colored endpapers. 🙂

[oak dawn]

Read through the first story, and I have a few line edits.

• page 8.
  • garden path sentence. eliminating "mi" from the first clause would make it clearer.
• page 12.
  • "sinpin anpa" carries a sense of being vertical, even in this context. For the story of a building "supa" is clearer.
  • "tomo sewi" invites some unneeded ambiguity. to make it clear that this is an attic (not a church), maybe "supa nanpa pini" or "tomo pi sewi nanpa wan"?
• page 14.
  • In toki pona, this sentence implies that Eli gives no choice, but the original English says he was given no choice.
• page 18.
  • Both sentences would be clearer if they used "ni:". Otherwise, maybe "wile pi tawa weka sona" and "mi pilin wile pi pana pona tawa ona."?
• page 22.
  • "taso mi kama sona ona tan mi" is missing a word?
  • I believe "luka tu" should be "noka tu".
  • Maybe "lupa ante" would clarify that Eli is going from the window to the door?
• page 26
  • I think maybe this sentence should be connected with the next? It seems to be missing a main verb.

[granite orbit]

@frozen folio I think these are all ones you need to review.

@oak dawn thanks 100x for going through all this! 🙂

[oak dawn]

No worries! Also, no pressure on jan Tene to make all these changes. They might think some of these are okay as they are.

@granite orbit this one is probably for you. In the Randolph Carter story, all dialogue through the telephone is italicized. In two cases, that formatting runs over into some of the narration.

[granite orbit]

ok, i'll take a look thx

Ya, you're probably right about that italics running over. I'll confirm with @frozen folio and integrate that with the other fixes. Thanks again for doing this.

[oak dawn]

no prob!

[frozen folio]

I definitely agree with page 18, 22 (add e and change luka tu to noka tu) and 26

I’ll have to think about 8

The rest (12 and 14) I don’t necessarily agree with

Both are reasonable, I just don’t see that big of a difference. Since sinpin anpa are numbered, it becomes clear after a few sentences at max what they are (imho). tomo sewi is a bit worse. I could be convinced that there is a better alternative

And thank you @oak dawn for these!

[frozen folio]

Crap, it’s possible I completely misunderstood the error on page 14

In that case let’s change “ona li pana ala e anu li kalama lon tenpo mute” to “ni la ona li ken anu ala li kalama lon tenpo mute”

[oak dawn]

Fwiw, this was the part that surprised me the most when I read the English after reading through the Toki Pona translation first. I somehow got under the impression that the narrator and Eli San lived in separate buildings, and Eli's was higher up the hill. I only understood that they lived on different floors of the same building after reading the English.

That said using "sinpin anpa" makes a lot of sense, especially when talking about a room. In the context of the overall building, I found "sinpin" a little misleading, interpreting it as an exterior wall. But that totally might just be me!

[frozen folio]

tomo sewi is a bit worse, than sinpin anpa, but I don’t think it needs to be changed

[oak dawn]

It's completely your judgement call as the translator. Neither is "tomo sewi" nor "sinpin anpa" are ungrammatical. I can only point out how I feel they might be misleading, and it's your decision whether you feel like a change is warranted. 😇

[granite orbit]

@frozen folio What about that italics?

[frozen folio]

Yes those should be changed

Also

The header in Dagon says tkala sewi Takon

A bit funny

[granite orbit]

youch.

not sure how that happened. I'll try to get these all fixed in the next couple days.

I've spent the last couple+ days working on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCQCP-5g5bo

Nope, not that.

This:

https://spacecruft.org/books/momovu

Basically takes a PDF then overlays margins for interior pages, plus cover and dustjacket.

So I can preview a lot faster. Lulu has a nice web interface, but it can be slow. Ingram takes days. This is "instant".

I got it working well enough to be usable. Should increase the flow speed now.

[oak dawn]

I read through Dagon and found no errors that need correction! One quick note though: the phrase "nasin ale" is often used as a translation for "nature" or "natural". Even in context, it reads more like "all that is possible", so it might be worth reconsidering that particular phrase.

[granite orbit]

Great, thank you!

[fleet nacelle]

@granite orbit I wanted to make a request and @frozen folio suggested I ping you. Since some translations of Lovecraft’s work are being mentioned / promoted in this server, I felt it would be important to double check that there’s an acknowledgment in the translation somewhere about how horribly racist Lovecraft was as a person and how these prejudices infiltrated into his work as well, in general. I’m not familiar with individual works so I’m not sure how much it applies to what was actually translated in this project, but it is usually good to mention this regardless. Thank you!

[granite orbit]

Hi, thanks for mentioning that. If you want to, you can look in the scrollback of this thread where this was discussed, in particular his usage of an n-bomb in the text. When classifying books for submissions, there are age cateogories and language classifications. I marked the book as 18+ due to this, and stated it had explicit language. I also did some research to figure out what should be best practice nowadays for handling things like this. If you have any suggestions, i'm completely open for it as I dont really think I have a solution.

[fleet nacelle]

Ok! I’ll take a look. I think adding a translator’s note toward the front of the text could be good, especially in case a reader isn’t aware of this side of Lovecraft at all. It can also explain why the translator thought it would still be valuable to translate the work anyway, in case someone is offended that any translation of any Lovecraft work would be made at all in the first place.

[granite orbit]

Well, I dont think we have to justify why any translation would be done. If that was the rule basically nothing would ever be translated.

[fleet nacelle]

No I don’t think so, formal translations often have a note from the translator explaining why they chose to spend their time on that work even if there’s no problematic history to speak of

[granite orbit]

Well, I'll leave that up to @frozen folio if they want to write an intro or not.

[fleet nacelle]

Sounds good!

[granite orbit]

Personally, I kind of cant stand, and generally skip, translator intros as they usually just drag on. I'd rather just get to the text. 😉

[fleet nacelle]

Haha I think I’m 50/50

[granite orbit]

The other general problem I have is most of the texts I work with are public domain, which means they are generally ~100 years old, when values were completely different than they are now. Like I haven't checked how racist Anatole France or Gustave Flaubert or Cervantes is, but presumably it is there if I look.

[fleet nacelle]

Lovecraft is particularly notable for being extreme compared to his own contemporaries

[granite orbit]

Ya. That's right. Fwiw, I knew very little about Lovecraft before this.

When I started digging in for this translation is when I came across all that.

[fleet nacelle]

We (white people in power in the USA) did a good job of hiding that about Lovecraft for a long time

[granite orbit]

Isn't that statement there just as bigoted though?

[fleet nacelle]

hmm

bigot

One who is narrow-mindedly devoted to their own ideas and groups, and intolerant of (people of) differing ideas, races, genders, religions, politics, etc.

I’m not sure how that would be the case! Lovecraft’s work is hugely popular and the fact that he was shockingly racist seems like it was almost unknown until recently, so the only explanation is that the info was suppressed by those who had the power to do so, and in the USA white people are almost always the ones with such power, especially in the past

[granite orbit]

That's pretty superficial. "the only explanation is that the info was suppressed". Or he was lost in oblivion and little was written about him? How many people in, say, 1950 even knew who he was? It's not like there was wikipedia back then. Info was way more scarce.

[fleet nacelle]

You’re right that his obscurity for decades was definitely a factor too. I think it was probably a combination - limited information flow back then, plus when he did gain popularity, there were editorial choices about what aspects of his life to emphasize. Either way, good that people are more aware now of the full picture.

[granite orbit]

I think the whole notion of race should have died out with phrenology. But we're still stuck with it. All the race categories are absurd. Like on forms, "Asian", etc. That covers everyone from Tokyo to Turkmenistan? The whole notion is seems ridiculous to me.

[fleet nacelle]

At this point categories need to persist in order to accurately represent the realities of how racism works, even though they’re obviously contrived and not based on anything accurate about the groups that are associated with them. Terms like “Asian” describe the behavior of the system, not the behavior of people considered “Asian” by that system.

[granite orbit]

They are political categorizations, with no basis in science, we probably agree on that. But the usage perpetuate the idea that these categories even exist, and strengthens them.

Like most people think that "race" actually exists, because it gets beat into their heads (by "white" people?)

[fleet nacelle]

Well… it does actually exist insofar as if one is not white, one will have less opportunity to have a good life. The solution isn’t to stop teaching people about racial categories, but to teach it with the proper context, in my opinion.

[granite orbit]

"if one is not white" but the whole point is that is just a made up category. Who is white? You can certainly teach the history of racism. But using it seems highly regressive to me.

Do people in Japan have less opportuntiy for a good life? When I was there it seemed like they were 100 years ahead of the USA. (though with issues still of course).

The people in Buenos Aires are far more "white" (by the standard racism model), but have far less opportunity than people in Japan.

[fleet nacelle]

I need to pause this conversation here. This server operates from an anti-racist framework, which recognizes that while race is socially constructed, it has very real material consequences that can’t be addressed by avoiding discussion of racial categories. The perspective that discussing race is ‘regressive’ or perpetuates racism doesn’t align with the community standards that have been established here. I’d like to continue this discussion in a private ticket instead of here.

[granite orbit]

I never said discusssing race is regressi.ve

"You can certainly teach the history of racism"

I said using race is regressive.

I never said racial categories can't be discussed. I discussed them myself. And said they were ridiculous.

You're setting up straw men now.

[fleet nacelle]

I created a ticket, sorry about the escalation

[granite orbit]

Pfft. OK. I'm gone.

fyi @mint harness sorry if I caused any offense.

[scarlet hawk]

Hi! Sonja kindly asks not to be pinged directly unless you know her well or she initiated a topic to ask for help. If you have a question, try asking the community first. If you see her active in a channel, that’s the best time to say hi and ask anything. Thanks for your understanding!