#A New Aproach to Toki Pona Numberals

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

slim rose
#

This language is over 20 years old, and nothing has been done about the utterly impractical numeric system of Toki Pona. I plan to propose a system WITHOUT changing the lexicon of Toki Pona in any way. (As always with toki pone, this is the choice of the speaker, but I wanted to propose it because multiple avenues have said the same thing)

As of right now, there are 6 numerical terms: ala(0), wan(1), tu(2), luka(5), muta(twenty) and ale(100) and those terms are formed in a romanic style to create other numbers(18 being luka luka luka tu wan, 5 + 5 + 5 + 2 + 1) which becomes insane the higher on the number line we go. (999 being "ale ale ale ale ale ale ale ale ale mute mute mute mute luka luka tu tu") So instead of being purely addition based, I propose the system be a mixture of multiplication and addition.

I understand this may violate Toki Pona's minimilist nature and the whole purpose of Toki Pona, hence why it hasn't been revised before, but think about it: which is more important? The utilization of a numerical system, or the minimalism of a language? I cannot say the same for you, but I'd rather be able to use any tool given to me.

Screenshot_20230707_231559_Samsung_Notes.jpg Screenshot_20230707_231607_Samsung_Notes.jpg Screenshot_20230707_231615_Samsung_Notes.jpg
cursive pike
#

this reminds me of nasin nanpa pona!

#

always cool to see people try to solve the number problem

vapid karma
#

i would try to learn this but my brain cant process different number bases tbh

#

all i can grasp is base10 and base2

#

maybe i could understand other stuff if i had a method but i don't currently so sad face

slim rose
#

That's all right. I get it, bases are kind of difficult and this one goes off the rails a bit. Think of it more as I'm multiplying 2 and 5(10) "tu luka" then I'm multiplying 2 and 20(40) "tu mute" then I add those together "tu mute tu luka"

#

This is 50 btw

quasi fractal
#

you'll be happy to hear that a similar idea is the third most used number system, after the extended pu number system and the "stop using numbers" system

#

as a result i would probably understand without explanation if you wrote it with spaces between the words (tu wan not tuwan)

#

cc @wicked raven

#

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/nasin_nanpa_pona

sona pona
nasin nanpa pona

nasin nanpa pona is an extension to the pu counting system for very big numbers.
In toki pona, numbers do very much not play a central role. In fact, exact numbers beyond 2 get mostly avoided, only using mute in the right context to say what the quantity is like in the given situation. However, not only are exact numbers seemingly more needed so...

coarse scarab
#

nnp is backwards compatibility, this new one clashes with the current system. Don't know if that would lead to confusion

wicked raven
#

yep i use this system for my own amusement. I think of it as just a shorthand for nasin nanpa pona. when i explain how it works to someone, the usual response is either "seme a?" or "nanpa li ike". I first saw it on reddit proposed by u/Foreskin-Gaming69

#

@slim rose

wicked raven
wicked raven
coarse scarab
#

sama

wicked raven
#

a!

#

nasin nanpa Foreskin Gaming li kama e ante Distinction

coarse scarab
#

nimi SEME a?

wicked raven
coarse scarab
#

a

surreal rapids
#

this is essentially what i use (although it still isn't super good at shortening small numbers)

slim rose
#

I'd like to see this nasin nanpa, I haven't heard of it before

wicked raven
#

tu wan mute luka tu tu

#

tu tu ale mute

slim rose
#

Lol

wicked raven
slim rose
#

So, nasin nanpa is like this system, just it has that reverse compatability that this one doesn't? Like luka tu could mean either 7 or 10. Whereas this system has set rules on that front making luka tu specifically 7 and tu luka is 10. Did I get that right?

wicked raven
#

not quite. luka tu can only be 7 in nasin nanpa Pu, nasin nanpa pona, and nasin nanpa Foreskin-Gaming69. tu luka is also 7 in nasin nanpa Pu and nasin nanpa pona, but now we're proposing a system in which it is 10 instead.

coarse scarab
#

nasin nanpa pona only does multiplication with "ale"

I actually had a misunderstanding about ale and mute the way it was described because the notation was in base 5, but if I understand it correctly, mute still means 20 (in base 10) and ale still means 100 (in base 100)

#

nnp is backwards compatible in that you can still say

ale ale ale ale ale ale ale ale ale mute mute mute mute luka luka luka tu tu
for 999 (while also allowing the shorter system)
and it's otherwise completely the same as pu counting until 99

#

I'm guessing that the long version is still an option with the... Foreskin system, for which you'll probably want a better name

wicked raven
coarse scarab
#

The difficulty then lies more on having everything multiplied
I think that's harder to parse
Numbers are hard enough

wicked raven
#

in my experience... you get used to it

#

start with the numbers it shortens the most, like tu tu mute, and the feel for it will come

#

--
as for a name - nasin nanpa namako?

surreal rapids
#

nanana

slim rose
#

Nasin nanpa namako for Foreskin?

wicked raven
#

yes

turbid fog
#

This language is over 20 years old, and nothing has been done about the utterly impractical numeric system of Toki Pona
This is giving me such poe's law

#

I can't tell if this is making fun of new learners and the urge to redo number systems or if this is actually that

surreal rapids
#

probably the latter

slim rose
#

So, I am a new learner, and I looked at a few resources and couldn't find any better ways of doing it other than nasin nanpa pu. I am very glad to hear that there are people trying to fix it, and if we can introduce the other systems alongside nasin nanpa pu to new learners, something like this(me squawking like I know what I'm talking about) doesn't happen and claiming "it hasn't been done" when frankly, it has

quasi fractal
#

we don't really get to teaching number systems much because we'll start by teaching the joys of not bothering with numbers

slim rose
#

I certainly have run into that solution lol. I was mad when I was told "Toki Pona Rule Number []: avoid using numbers" because a sentence I personally have to say more than not it "I have nine dogs" because I do. So being told not to say "Mi jo e soweli luka tu tu" was a little peeving.

quasi fractal
#

i would probably say i have an unusually large number of dogs, mi jo e soweli pi mute suli nasa

slim rose
#

My brain would pick and poke and be like "How many is unusually large" even though I know the avoidance of numbers is common in Toki Pona

#

Not trying to argue or rebutte, I'm explaining my frustration with this

wicked raven
#

nanpa li ike tawa jan mute. nanpa li ken ike tawa mi lon ijo li ken pona a tawa mi lon ijo la mi kepeken nasin nanpa namako

slim rose
#

OH! I totally forgot about this one thing: numbers that have equal values are aldo multiplied(like luka luka = 25, not 10 mute mute = 400, not 40, and ale ale = 10,000, not 200) yes, for most values, it would be easier to use simpler forms(luka luka = mute luka, mute mute = tu tu ale. But for values above "ale ale", you would need to use it

#

I know this multiplication system can be confusing, and I do apologize. I personally like multiplication more than addition, so I thought this worked better. If nasin nanpa namako works better for you all, that is perfectly fine! This is only a proposal

wicked raven
coarse scarab
#

"ale ale" still means the same in nasin nanpa pu and in nasin nanpa pona, I don't think it's ambiguous

wicked raven
coarse scarab
#

They're identical up to any number as long as you don't shorten it

wicked raven
coarse scarab
#

Unless you play around with the order with the pu system, which might be pess likely once you get into the hundreds