Building anti-racist moderation policies for ma pona

[hard shadow]

like kulupu pali because wikipedia calls it bureaucrat

[hard shadow]

so like… switch them?

i personally like that one

[grave pollen]

#wile-kulupu message

quilt mod loader is the best on racism I've seen other than ma pona

Our mod team should reach out

[hard shadow]

i already did

here

nano zangoose [dook] (NO TONE TAGS PLEASE) ☁🍄 ↩️

[Reply to:](#1088975581422551041 message) and, fwict, there has been little done to actually empower non-white people, just conjecture about m…

what i learned was you just need to start being more colored on main

but i think this is a good idea regardless

to have some sort of collaboration

[grave pollen]

ah yeah, kind of the chicken-and-egg problem we talked about earlier

but also I was saying that the mod team should reach out... if the anti-racist work is all on server members who (afaik?) aren't even currently on the mod team... that's not going to cut it

[hard shadow]

I’m going to be aggressively Indigenous now >:)

[grave pollen]

I hate how discord decides that big vertical images when expanded should remain completely unreadable

thanks Piko o, really helpful zoom there

read it in browser, and yeah.. that's about what I expected the answer to be

Maybe in the next mod election cycle we can put out explicit langauge that in the mod cycle we are looking for new mods with experience in anti-racism?

Try to encourage the few in the community to take steps.. maybe if it wasn't just one nonwhite mod joining the team there could be more impact and less bs

but also like... moderation ma pona is a shit job, I had to quit because it was burning me out to the point where I didn't even want to interact with toki pona any more

so we also need to solve the fact that moderating here makes people want to leave

because clearly, nano had a similar experience in at least some ways, and I know many others have left the team

[sage sun]

yea i was thinking of something like this the past cycle

but also uhhhh we dont have that large of a community of active non-white people and i know a lot of them are explicitly not interested in moderation so

[grave pollen]

yeah 😦

like I said, chicken and egg

we need the community to be non-hostile to nonwhite people, but if we need nonwhite community leaders in order for that to happen...

then what the fuck is the answer

because the limit of that equation seems to be "it will never change and we'll be racist forever"

at which point like...

😐

[hard shadow]

I think maybe there’s a way to have nonwhite community leaders that aren’t moderators but the idea is slipping out of my grasp rn

[wooden egret]

Alright nebugays, I'll remind you about community leaders in 2 hours. ID: 56476693

[grave pollen]

I think the community mute stuff we are adding (have already added?) could help

part of the moderation burden was like

if you mute someone you have to keep dealing with them

and it's incredibly emotionally and mentally draining

also you gets pings 24/7

like

I'd regularly wake up and look at my phone, and in the time I slept I'd have 10+ calls to moderation actions

that's fucking awful

[sage sun]

ma pona has slowed down a lot

[grave pollen]

it became where the majority of the time I spent on ma pona was doing emotional labor for moderation

[sage sun]

i can often sleep without seeing a single report ping over that time uwu

[grave pollen]

and I had none left to actually BE in the community

wow that's so weird, the server has like doubled in size

I guess maybe it hasn't

[sage sun]

true the tickets take a lot of effort still uwu

[grave pollen]

maybe it's just lurkers

and the active amount is lower?

I thought you also left the mod team?

or am I getting mixed up

[sage sun]

no ive been owner for a while lmao

[grave pollen]

I know that

what am I thinking of??

[sage sun]

idk

there was that one time i handed asali the keys for a bit since i didnt know if my personal safety was ensured

[grave pollen]

oh I must be thinking of that

[civic granite]

the server will probably speed up a bunch when summer vacation kicks in

[sage sun]

[muted hamlet]

aa

[lunar quarry]

damn kids

[queen jackal]

oh that's true !!

and I will be employed and available online less D:

but like, starting late june :D

[hard shadow]

Did someone just join and immediately get muted lmao

[queen jackal]

I REFUSE to spend my hour off dealing with bullshit

[queen jackal]

who?

where?

oh

they're the one on the bottom (cw racism)

[hard shadow]

Oh yikes

[lunar quarry]

i think sometimes people join and get muted and leave and then they're muted again when they came back. i think maybe that happened here, idk

[hard shadow]

Oh I didn’t realize mutes stayed that’s really smart

[muted hamlet]

#toki-lawa message
Here is their ticket, if you wanted to 👁️

[grave pollen]

oh fuck I didn't think of that

😬

[hard shadow]

hbdbdbshdbbfbdha the fear in that was palpable o7 brave soldiers

Braver than any US marine

[delicate sierra]

that's yagpdb!
which in spite of its relative silliness i like a lot as a bot, it has a lot of good design choices, this being one of them

[muted hamlet]

If it matters, I and maybe other younger mods will also be more avaliable over the summer.

[grave pollen]

trueee

[calm oak]

ma pona la wawa toki ale li tan jan lili

ona li lon tomo sona ala la ona li toki lon ma pona

[stuck palm]

o7 we salute the mod team

oh dang lol didnt realise how long ago that was

[ashen folio]

how is the anti-racist policy building going?

do i ping someone

wait lipamanka left

[lilac fog]

lipamanka was banned

not left

[hard shadow]

a

[lilac fog]

happens. sometimes people you trust break that trust and end up banned from ma pona

c'est la vie

[hard shadow]

yea

how are the anti-racist policies developing?

[lilac fog]

dunno i feel like there's enough

it's time to stop listening to people of color

they all say the same shit

[sage sun]

mod team collectively burnt out around then :/

[ashen folio]

mmhm

[sage sun]

(people not familiar with you/your new account may not have the context to understand this as sarcasm)

[lilac fog]

it's not sarcasm I'm being serious

I'm being 100% unironic when I say this

they all say the same shit. "racism is bad", "you shouldn't say mean things about brown people", etc. how about we do things without having to consult people of color constantly for approval

white people genuinely have no clue how to operate in an anti-racist way because of this narrative that you MUST listen to poc. you MUST only do things that poc say

actually develop a mindset for it and it gets you a lot further

white people love to say "listen to poc!" and don't actually listen and understand but do the monkey see monkey do shit

^ this is what i said in the quilt mc discord staff chat

as the only remaining person of color on the team, lmfao

listening to poc is not a solution for anti-racism

[hard shadow]

tokenism

okay what the fuck

owe ilo ↩️

[Reply to:](#1088975581422551041 message) they all say the same shit

Developing the anti-racist mindset is the point of the policies and how the server will be moving forward

[lilac fog]

yes

[lunar quarry]

ok "white people stop depending on people of colour's every word and learn to be anti-racist by yourself" is different from "stop listening to people of colour"

can you please engage with this by leading with your concerns instead of opening with unelaborated/unqualified bait

[lilac fog]

oh well

i think if i was on my main i wouldn't have been taken like that lol

[lime vector]

on the learning server someone recently posted something about using toki pona to communicate with natives on an island. i replied this way. did i handle it correctly or is there a better way i could have done?

[lilac fog]

i think that's good

[lime vector]

ok thanks

[abstract coral]

often times when people tell you to just listen to poc to be non-racist, they really mean "it's them that's being affected so they need to fix it." It's just shifting the responsibility to poc to find everything racist and tell white people about it.

[night sluice]

i think the fear is that white ppl , while possibly having the best intentions, will in fact come to the wrong conclusions; when one considers the depth of racist ideas in the Society(tm) this outcome should be unsurprising. Obviously something between the two extremes of "just eyeball ur anti racism bro" and "only parrot poc/other oppressed groups" is needed, but the wording of that exact statement is highly unclear to me

[hard shadow]

probably an extremely cold take
white ppl should listen to what poc say but also they should think critically about why they say to do those things and to actually dismantle their own biases instead of being antiracist bc it makes them "look like a better person"

[hard shadow]

why am i getting so many pona reacts this is actually an absolutely obvious take 😭 /gen

[grave pollen]

it's an obvious take and people who completely miss that point are also observably everywhere

[hard shadow]

sometimes i forget that white people aren't nonwhite

[muted hamlet]

a... lon

[hard shadow]

shocking discovery white people are white

aspen | kulupu ko ↩️

[Reply to:](#1088975581422551041 message) sometimes i forget that white people aren't nonwhite

😭 😭 😭

[muted hamlet]

(Note pi lon ona la I've added Food to #1089735829229932595)

[hard shadow]

thanks so much

i love the extra reading

[muted hamlet]

Someday I'll get around to all the things people have been putting in #nasin this past week and categorise them

[hard shadow]

nja laso is really good at antiracism

probably knows more than me tbh 😭

[grave pollen]

No access?

[delicate sierra]

ni li toki nasin
sina wile lon la o lukin e sona lon toki nasin kepeken ilo

[lunar quarry]

i really wish discord would give further information than just saying no access

[grave pollen]

horrible ui change

[calm oak]

tenpo pini la ilo li toki e '#deleted-channel' taso

sin li pona

[lunar quarry]

a lon

nasin sin ante o lon

[real lodge]

genuine question, how prevalent is racism as a problem on ma pona pi toki pona?

[rotund current]

my understanding is that a lot of people in ma pona either perpetuate or are unwilling to call out microagressions against poc and their needs

and the mod team, even if they are well intentioned, is mostly full of white people

(in part because it's exhausting to moderate a server like this as a person of color, since you end up being seen as kinda the only person who can Deal With Racism, and in part because people disrespect the intelligence and experience of mods who are open about how being a person of color has affected their lives)

and the fact that the vast majority of the mods are white means that they don't always have the experience needed to deal with racism effectively

i don't really have the perspective to say more than that since my experience in the server has been as a white person. i try to listen more than i speak on topics like this, so i'm currently just trying to echo what i've heard poc in the community say about this

[hard shadow]

it’s prevalent enough to where most bans and mutes are for racism,,

well ignoring ban evaders being banned again i mean

[grave pollen]

pretty large, POC tend to just leave the server instead of putting up with it

(understandably)

[real lodge]

yikes

I did not know

[grave pollen]

I think the tldr version is

• as others have said, mainly white mod team
• microaggressions often go unchecked or when people try to check, the folks doing it get aggressive
• we constantly have to ban people for racist stuff, and even if they get banned, folks still have to see the stuff leading up to bans frequently

[hard shadow]

yeah it can be pretty bad some days. But I’d say it’s improved since January when we joined/since actually starting a conversation about it and how moderation goes forward.

I’m a spiteful little shit so I’m going to stay here and put up with it so the next bipoc who join enjoy it and don’t have to deal with so much

[grave pollen]

this reminds me I really need to get ma musi's code of conduct/moderation guide/airlock shit all set up 😮‍💨

[queen jackal]

oh yeah we could bring the action discussion here

[hard shadow]

i don't oppose education being part of our antiracism here

but people focused so so much on it

that in order to get anyone to listen i had to exaggerate

[calm oak]

i get it

[queen jackal]

I think it shouldn't be a priority

[hard shadow]

i think it'd be nice if we directed people to resources but not a priority yeah

[queen jackal]

and my priority right now: are you okay Aspen is there anything I can do to make you feel better

[hard shadow]

you've done all you can and i really appreciate it

[queen jackal]

potato salad

uhhh

casseroles

[hard shadow]

white people only know how to make food of their own color

[queen jackal]

TRUE

TRUE SO TRUE

[hard shadow]

they even made white chocolate ... .

[queen jackal]

white people be like okay for tonight's dinner we will be having a jar of unsalted peanuts

[hard shadow]

they probably use negative salt

[queen jackal]

so true

[hard shadow]

i think that's just called boiling tbh

[queen jackal]

boiled peanuts

but there is no lemon added because that would be "too spicy"

served on a bed of iceberg lettuice and mayo

[hard shadow]

yk the mexican japanese peanuts i heard that some ppl actually consider that spicy

misnomer tbh

[queen jackal]

I have some "spicy" peanuts actually

[hard shadow]

it was a japanese mexican who invented them i think

[queen jackal]

they're pretty good but they aren't like caliente y'know

[hard shadow]

uh... caliente means hot to the touch as in temperature

u mean picante i think

[queen jackal]

I DO

[hard shadow]

anyways enough white people food bashing

[queen jackal]

I DO YOU'RE RIGHT

[hard shadow]

i have to actually talk about how to fix ma pona racism

[queen jackal]

white people when they forget the right spanish word and use the wrong one for the aesthetic

yes

[hard shadow]

white people when they spanish

[queen jackal]

what do you think about my questions

I can go grab them

[hard shadow]

i think they are good

preferably there would be a bit more of them but they are very goodly i think

[queen jackal]

1. what does it look like when white people are committed to an anti-racist enviornment?
2. what does "racism is a systemic issue" mean to you?
3. fill in the blank: in the context of social justice, X lives matter

notes:

• these are just ideas. I'm not in love with them, we just need a starting point
• if people put "all lives matter" for number three we can just ban them
• I'm worried about the need for nonwhite people to fill this out. I don't think they should have to but idk what the best way to go about this is y'know

grabbed them

[hard shadow]

oh my god i was about to answer them again

[queen jackal]

im having trouble thinking of more

@soft jacinth do you wanna spitball some

[hard shadow]

uhh hang on lemme thing of some more r smthing

[queen jackal]

ur a real trooper for this

[hard shadow]

they will probably be bad questions bc im tired ,, and my vyvanse is wearing off

[soft jacinth]

gimme a sec to read here

[queen jackal]

there's not much it's just making fun of white cooking and then my message

[queen jackal]

I love prescription stimulants

even tho I didn't take mine today

[hard shadow]

uhhh what are some things racists do

talk over non-white people

oh yeah

4. a non-white person calls you out on what they claim is racism. in this situation, should you argue against them, or concede?

ok this is a really bad question i feel embarrassed😭

[soft jacinth]

sorry i keep getting distracted by Other Channel

[queen jackal]

I'm trying to ignore it but people keep pinging me

oh you pinged me lol

[hard shadow]

feel free to improve my questions i think there's merit in the underlying idea of listening to nw people but im bad at question making

[soft jacinth]

just to spitball here. somw of these may suck but in brainstorming you include the bad ideas because sometimes they inspire good ideas in others:

• fill in the blank: you are either racist or ____ racist

[queen jackal]

well I have no idea what to put there

[hard shadow]

anti

[soft jacinth]

yeah, anti

[queen jackal]

oh

[hard shadow]

because there are no non-racists

[supple mantle]

if that question has an answer box (open answer) it might function better

[hard shadow]

uhhh what else

[queen jackal]

idk I don't think of racism as an inherent quality, I think of it as something people do

[soft jacinth]

trying to think of points from the book

[queen jackal]

I don't think it's useful personally to say "this person is racist"

so I don't use that type of language a lot

I think the fill in the blank one has to be a common phrase that most people on the internet are familiar with

[soft jacinth]

oh I've been meaning to transcribe every definition listed in How to Be an Antiracist to send to the mod team and to build my own skill with vocabulary

[supple mantle]

i don't find it un-useful but so many see it as a dirty word and shut down discussion when it's used in relation to them

[queen jackal]

like "trans rights are ___"

[hard shadow]

i use "white people are racist" because it makes them angry and then i can stay away from them
unfortunately it has the effect of... making white people angry so if i can't run away or 🅱️an them im screwed

[supple mantle]

(which means in this context it will work well lol)

[soft jacinth]

• some question that probes the reader for the knowledge that racism is our normal EDIT: "our" here refers to like. wider society

[queen jackal]

this is fair! if someone who's not white calls me racist I work on it harder

[hard shadow]

ideally those who do not formally know anti-racism but are still antiracist in ideals and knowledge should be able to answe these questions

[queen jackal]

ye

[hard shadow]

like my dad probably doesn't know the phrase "there is either antiracism or racism" but he definitely has experience with racism

[soft jacinth]

um. hm.

• something about systemic reparations?

[queen jackal]

I don't know all the lingo but I know that "black lives matter" is the right answer and "all lives matter" sucks

[hard shadow]

• do your emotions matter when someone calls you out on racism?

"no."

these questions are all very white focused

[queen jackal]

oh white fragility is a good one to put on there

[queen jackal]

maybe but I wonder if that's a good thing or a bad thing

[soft jacinth]

oh duh

• a non-white person (can/can't) be racist

[hard shadow]

if i had to answer this i would feel awkward because most of the time when someone calls me out on racism it's a white person being like "omg ur so racist against white people"

[queen jackal]

I want to avoid putting ideas of people being racist

[soft jacinth]

yeah, i worried about that as soon as I put it out there

[calm oak]

want to jump in and ask if we would rather have this in a ticket than a public thread

[queen jackal]

because practically speaking, racism hurts people when it's done, not when it's inherent

[queen jackal]

it seems like it's going fine here

[hard shadow]

a nonwhite person can do racist things/have racist biases

[soft jacinth]

why? i think I have an idea but would like to hear from you; i think you still know more than I do about this

[calm oak]

ale li pona la ale li pona

pakala ken nanpa wan li ni tawa mi: tomo ni li weka tan sona pi jan ale

[soft jacinth]

i think the fact that the discord forums thing is so buried might be sufficiently protective

[hard shadow]

racism is subconscious and it's bias but it's not inherent to a person and someone can definitely Correct their Bias Consciously and maybe unconsciously but idk

[queen jackal]

I explained my basic thoughts

because practically speaking, racism hurts people when it's done, not when it's inherent
but to elaborate, I have never seen calling someone racist as a quality do any good. at best it does nothing and at worst it distracts from their action

fuck bad edititong

one sec

there

[hard shadow]

impact > intent

[calm oak]

lon la ni li len e tomo tawa jan ike. taso...ni li ken kama len e tomo tawa jan ni kin: ona li lon li toki, li weka lon tenpo lili, li ken ala alasa sin e tomo

[soft jacinth]

something something doing racism rather than being racist

[supple mantle]

everyone is a product of their society, if that society is a white supremacist one, that affects everyone in some way or another

[hard shadow]

usually i find that the statement "all white people have racist bias" has about the same effect in causing them to be defensive so i can deworm a place

[queen jackal]

exactly

[calm oak]

jan suko o kama ala kama #toki-lawa message

[queen jackal]

yeah

racism is something you do

the long and short of it is that the inherent racistness of people is not relevant to doing anything about it because you can never eliminate your biases, you can only learn more and correct for them

and do things

actions

[hard shadow]

off topic but all im thinking of is "white people taco night"

and it's distracting me ghelp

[queen jackal]

I cooked this chicken in water and that's it and now put it in the hard shells mmmm

[soft jacinth]

the white people taco knight is attacking you

[queen jackal]

sour cream and jar salsa from "organic brooklyn white people salsa inc"

I made guac and it has raisins in it

[hard shadow]

raisins

im so sleepy oh my god i

[calm oak]

mu

[hard shadow]

i think that conversation in toki lawa actually drained the life out of me

[queen jackal]

I actually think that the raisins thing ignores that some cultures especially from the middle east but also including my own jewish culture use raisins in stuff and it tastes good and raisins in things is good actually but "I made guac it has raisins in it" is still really funny

[queen jackal]

sure?

[hard shadow]

uhh idk

jan Tepo ↩️

[Reply to:](#1088975581422551041 message) mu

[supple mantle]

white (and bri'ish) moment i skipped the it in that sentence and thought the joke was white people using egg shells as seasoning for a moment

[calm oak]

pona anu seme

[soft jacinth]

I'm really not the person to make this call

[queen jackal]

TRUE

TRUE

[hard shadow]

they might as well

𓆤𓍹𓃦𓃉☋○𓍻𓍹Smee𓍻 ↩️

[Reply to:](#1088975581422551041 message) white (and bri'ish) moment i skipped the it in that sentence and thought the joke was white people u…

[soft jacinth]

I defer to laso

[queen jackal]

EGGSHELLS

@tender sentinel btw we are starting this up again if you want me to give you a run down let me know I'll summarize things

[hard shadow]

laso li lon ala thread ni i think

[calm oak]

@hexed lance

[soft jacinth]

laso should join here

[hexed lance]

meow

[hasty briar]

This is a private thread?

[calm oak]

it is not

[hard shadow]

i wish there were more nonwhite people in ma pona but to do that we need to fix the racism

sorry if im saying redundant things

[soft jacinth]

do you think the "chicken and the egg" description of this somwone gave was accurate

[hard shadow]

yeah

[queen jackal]

I was enjoying the lack of this

to avoid more several people are typing I'm gonna let other people typing

[hexed lance]

and to do that without pestering nw ppl we need white ppl we absolutely totally completely trust to deal with racist dingusi
if theres smth wrong with this point pls tell

[soft jacinth]

you are allowed to be you here. to quote
"allowed to be [you], be [yourself], be [your] imperfect self."

How to Be an Antiracist, Ibram X. Kendi

[hard shadow]

I’m currently still in data entry hell like a good slave to capitalism, but I’m probably gonna get off in about an hour? Depends on when I end up wanting to kill someone again. If you could give me rundown now and when I’m off, I’ll catch up later!

no u shld put all the pressure on me because i can handle it definitely mhm yeah /s

turquoise! ↩️

[Reply to:](#1088975581422551041 message) and to do that without pestering nw ppl we need white ppl we absolutely totally completely trust to …

why was i ever the only nw mod in mante.. that was basically trauma almost

[queen jackal]

I'll remind you/myself in one hour and 15 minutes

-remindme 1h15m sum up the thing

[unique jay]

Set a reminder in 1 hour and 15 minutes from now (<t:1716345745:f>)
View reminders with the reminders command

[hard shadow]

tbh i still want to be a mod because that was the only time people listened to me about racism
when i had the authority to punish them for not

[hexed lance]

real,

[queen jackal]

I think you deserve to not have to be a mod

modding is. below you

you are like such a sweet person you deserve better

[hard shadow]

i was a really bad moderator when i was one

i was rlly harsh and naive and four gorbillion other bad things for a mod to be

[hexed lance]

rlly harsh,

[hard shadow]

but yk what i did do !!
solve the racism in mante..
it only took the emotional labor of having to ban my friends because they were racist as a non-white person !! 😄 ahh.. such good times /s

[hexed lance]

idk if. thats a thing
sor if im pushing on an old wound :(

[hard shadow]

i think im past it now

[hasty briar]

Beginning of a Google Doc to list action items that are worth keeping from the past several hours of discussion.

[queen jackal]

I will not be working on a google doc

[hasty briar]

I don't know what else to use but happy to consolidate if you have your own version somewhere.

[hard shadow]

anyways i want someone to do this except not a non-white person
it should be a white person because white people don't have experience with racism so they can't be too emotional about it

soweli Apen | kulupu ko ↩️

[Reply to:](#1088975581422551041 message) but yk what i did do !!
solve the racism in mante..
it only took the emotional labor of having to b…

i think i worded that bad

[soft jacinth]

same most likely

[hard shadow]

it won't hurt a white person to do racism work but it will hurt a non-white person to do it

[hasty briar]

I'm happy to work on it alone, it just seemed worth posting…

[hard shadow]

also it's white people's problem... yk.. they're the ones that started it and all so like ,, fix it urself

[queen jackal]

ye

you can compile notes for the rest of us who don't want to work on a google doc

[hasty briar]

OK

Just making sure you're saying "I don't have the energy to work on this" and not "Fuck you for using the Google Docs product"

[soft jacinth]

this makes sense to me. if we can't make policy change, lets make power change, and get an anti racist onto the mod team who is capable of doing this

[queen jackal]

yes

google docs is usually my prefered online sharing thing

[hasty briar]

OK since I assumed it was the latter it must mean that I am getting grumpy and need to eat first XD

[hard shadow]

tbh i thought it was the latter and i was like "you do you,, sticking to ur principles"

i probably won't be working on it only because i have an irrational fear of doxxing myself through accidentally using the wrong google account

sorry..

aspen i think you did half of the work in that conversation if not more 💀

[hexed lance]

h yeah

[hard shadow]

wish i cld do more without actually falling to pieces , , ,

[hasty briar]

OK just to be 100% clear, I am gonna do the best I can and nobody will be judged for not helping. I posted it here because that is the ethical thing to do :D

[hard shadow]

thank you

[hasty briar]

I'll be back in ~60

[soft jacinth]

we all appreciate you doing what you can. do not internalized ablism+racism yourself into falling apart for this

[hard shadow]

i feel like i'm not
assertive enough when it comes to racism

[supple mantle]

wow 60 seconds, fast worker /musi

[queen jackal]

you are plenty assertive

[grave pollen]

we should enable -cmute for more people and especially nw people

[hard shadow]

oh no wait no this is just a way of placing the blame on me instead of white peoole for not listening !!! oh noo... internalized racism

[soft jacinth]

i wonder if i failed to use -cmute enough in the prebuous conversation

[grave pollen]

It gives them the power to shut up racists in the moment and does not come with the emotional labor of having to deal with the mess

[hard shadow]

even when i was a mod i was super hesitant to mute people

[soft jacinth]

yes, exactly

[grave pollen]

I keep getting people complaining that I mute too much

[hard shadow]

i feel that but even more now because im just a community member that not many people even know

soweli Apen | kulupu ko ↩️

[Reply to:](#1088975581422551041 message) even when i was a mod i was super hesitant to mute people

[grave pollen]

but honestly I fear I don't mute enough

[hexed lance]

this! i saw a reccomendation about this i think im gonna add to the Pile

[hard shadow]

it would be better if i muted ppl now bc im not a mod and i dont have to deal with the deworming

[grave pollen]

exactly

[hexed lance]

we need ppl with more courage to do the thing that needs to be done,

[soft jacinth]

we should also put up front something about how we don't mute as a penalty here but as harm reduction

[queen jackal]

giving nonwhite people actual power like this is a really good action

[hard shadow]

i feel uncourageous

[queen jackal]

jan Tepo do it now

[soft jacinth]

i'm willing to fuck myself over to get this done, but i can't tell when a battle is worth choosing if that makes sense

[queen jackal]

immediately

[calm oak]

what if we renamed "mute". 1. is this possible 2. would it help

[calm oak]

jan seme

[soft jacinth]

not a bad idea. the objective being to rebrand it such that muted people are more okay with being muted?

[hard shadow]

this wouldn't be the first time i've had power placed on me because i can mute racists

[hexed lance]

this is a battle worth choosing,

[grave pollen]

same, I feel like I have such a blind spot

[calm oak]

yes

[soft jacinth]

also maybe so that mute-ers are more okay with muting when needed

[hard shadow]

im willing to fuck myself over this
it will be extra bad for me though so don't let me do it please

jan Asiku ↩️

[Reply to:](#1088975581422551041 message) i'm willing to fuck myself over to get this done, but i can't tell when a battle is worth choosing i…

[grave pollen]

I think this is importantly different in that you don't receive moderator pings and you don't have to explain racism in the ticket, the (white) mods have to do that part

[soft jacinth]

at any time you can DM me and say "this person needs to be muted" and ill do it for you, if that helps any

[hexed lance]

yea i feel placing the mute power places more. burden on them

[hard shadow]

team of white moderators only is still bad though

[soft jacinth]

but like, i assume you want to not be the one making that decision, right?

[hard shadow]

im just unconfident in making that decision

[soft jacinth]

hm that's true

[hard shadow]

to be honest i do not trust white people with antiracism that much
it's only a few ppl im confident in

but they have to do it

[soft jacinth]

i hope im able to get good enough at this to be trustworthy with it

[hexed lance]

mhm

[calm oak]

you already qualify for the suli! role by the criteria no need to do anything special, do you want it

at kulupu ko

[hard shadow]

i have the suli role already

[soft jacinth]

rhey already have it

[hard shadow]

i've had it for months

[calm oak]

oh

[queen jackal]

oh so you can cmute

[hard shadow]

yeah

[queen jackal]

and do it

[soft jacinth]

wait is "they" an OK pronoun for you

[hard shadow]

yeah

[soft jacinth]

okay cool

[queen jackal]

it/they/she according to pluralkit I think?

[hard shadow]

kulupu ko is they/them
for me it's it/they/she in that order

yea

[grave pollen]

this is also what the react is for too - eternally I think people aren't as aware of it as they should be

[hard shadow]

i can mute im just really scared because.. uh... idk ... . what if i mute for a wrong reason :( ?

idk

[hexed lance]

thisthisthisthisthishtishithihstihst

[soft jacinth]

hm. okay how about we talk a bit about this:
in the conversation that just happened, who should have been muted, when, and why? which messages should have been reported to the mods and why?

[grave pollen]

Borrow the undeserved confidence of a mediocre white guy because they're out there doing bullshit with 100% pleasure

[queen jackal]

then I'll kill for you dw

[soft jacinth]

so if im not confident in a community mute but think one might be necessary, i should use that emote?

[grave pollen]

I would 1000% prefer an over-enthusiastic muting that mods have to fix, than even a single nw person having to deal with racist crap that could have been avoided

[hard shadow]

will keep in mind

hopefully

[grave pollen]

yes it pings the mods privately in the mod chat + context and metadata

[hard shadow]

im bad at keeping stuff in my brain

[soft jacinth]

me too, but I fear that if I'm too aggressive with it my mute power will be taken away and I'll have fallen on my sword

[grave pollen]

I've had the mute-ee yell at me several times but I have not had it removed at all

[soft jacinth]

you're a mod though aren't you

[grave pollen]

no

[hexed lance]

whats the suli role,

[grave pollen]

it lets you mute people even when you're not a mod

[soft jacinth]

oh I need the fluent role

[muted hamlet]

(I am mods and prefer this too)

[hard shadow]

i've been hiding from the real reason to be honest

[hexed lance]

a nice
can i have it...

[soft jacinth]

how do you get this

[queen jackal]

my right ear is burning

[hard shadow]

it's not that im unconfident it's just that im scared that the mutee will yell at me and i dont wanna deal with that anymore

[queen jackal]

are people talking about me on a different discord server

[soft jacinth]

laso 100% should have it imo

[hard shadow]

someones talking about you..

a gatinha com mãos ↩️

[Reply to:](#1088975581422551041 message) my right ear is burning

[soft jacinth]

what

[queen jackal]

I can feel it in my heart someone is gossiping about me

[hard shadow]

it's me im talking to aspen about you

[queen jackal]

and in my ear

[grave pollen]

that would be a reason to ban them

[queen jackal]

TRUE

[hard shadow]

no ur not

jan Musi | kulupu ko ↩️

[Reply to:](#1088975581422551041 message) it's me im talking to aspen about you

[hexed lance]

exactly

[supple mantle]

suli role have a locked channel anu seme

[hard shadow]

shhhhh shhh aspen haven't you ever heard of a Joke

literally in my name

[soft jacinth]

suli role can mute anyone at any time to prevent harm

[hexed lance]

1. i get to talk in and about toki pona again and more frequently
2. i get to kick racist dinguses in the butt
   win win

[supple mantle]

the mute commands can happen away from the mutee's vision that way

[hexed lance]

i just need to. remember to check this server ._.

[queen jackal]

the mutee will not yell at you they'll be muted

[grave pollen]

Typically it's restricted to people who have been on the server a while and shown investment in the community, but frankly I would rather give the power to too many people and have to take it away, it really is ultimately pretty harmless. Like worst case scenario someone gets muted on a discord server when they didn't deserve it OH NO HOW WILL THEY LIVE

[hard shadow]

isn't it -cmute

like don't u need two people for it

[supple mantle]

that was my first thought but also dms

[hard shadow]

or have i been misinformed the entire time and ive been fearing something unnecessarily please don't let it be that please

[queen jackal]

tbh they should lower that to one person ..

[hexed lance]

yea fair

[grave pollen]

it is -cmute but the mods could make -mute available to the same role.

Historically it required 2 people but now it does not because requiring 2 people made it useless and no one ever abused it anyway

[hexed lance]

yipi

[hard shadow]

can you tell i've gotten a huge fear of white ppl screaming at me about racism because of my moderation

[queen jackal]

yes

[hard shadow]

darn it

[queen jackal]

which is so fucked up

[hexed lance]

petpets the apen..

[grave pollen]

If you mute someone for being racist and they DM you complaints then open a ticket for the mods and tell them, and the mods will ban them. I'm not a mod but I will Enforce this using all my loud ass voice

[hard shadow]

meow

policy,, ban people i don't like

[hexed lance]

same

[calm oak]

nya laso qualifies by the message count thing in any case so its a moot point

[hard shadow]

as an Oppressed Person® im always correct so like trust me y'all

/s

[calm oak]

applied

[hexed lance]

yay

[hard shadow]

suli shld be 1 person .. .

[grave pollen]

you are so valid and you bring joy to the community ❤️
I totally understand that fear and I share it. Keep in mind that having the ability to use the tool doesn't mean you're obligated to also.

I really want to get the community to a point where nw people don't have to deal with muting racist shit because someone else already did

[hard shadow]

that was part of the reason i became mod

[supple mantle]

but also if the mutee seeing the muter doing the muting is holding people back from using their mute power, a hidden channel for the sulis might be good

[hard shadow]

because when i said to the mods "hey there's racism help me" they were like " 🦗 🦗 🦗 "

[queen jackal]

is this ma ante?

[grave pollen]

that's fixable, logging could be redirected

[hard shadow]

usually because there was no one online or "uhh.. don't you think that's like., a little unreasonable ? maybe 😄 " or something along those lines

yeah

a gatinha com mãos ↩️

[Reply to:](#1088975581422551041 message) is this ma ante?

the mod team there is super dysfunctional

[hexed lance]

what were we talkibg about again,

[queen jackal]

not really sure what happened after I left but at this point I don't want to know

[queen jackal]

heh always has been

[grave pollen]

ma ante has always been dysfunctional lol

[hard shadow]

too much stuff

[grave pollen]

I left when it stopped being a toki pona server

[hard shadow]

it's pretty stable right now

[hexed lance]

not bad tbh yea

[hard shadow]

it's just a friend group server and it's where i mainly talk

[grave pollen]

hmmm appealing

[hard shadow]

don't backread. i don't want y'all knowing about the dumb decisions i made as mod 😖

the main issue right now is that (no offense) scribble does absolutely nothing as the owner

[grave pollen]

trust me I have no time for that

[supple mantle]

i left because mostly because it felt like a space that isn't For me

[hard shadow]

it's so stagnant

[soft jacinth]

i think it deletes the mute message so you can just do it in #jaki or wherever and be fine

[hard shadow]

we've been waiting for the mod voting form for almost two months now ..

[queen jackal]

well at least she isn't actively making bad decisions

[hard shadow]

at first i thought this was shade on me and i was like "ouch..."

[hexed lance]

where were we,
lets get back on track

[soft jacinth]

hey, should we come back to this point of conversation or continue as we are?

[hard shadow]

uhh

i got way off topic

shoot

[hexed lance]

happens

[hard shadow]

y'all im sorry my meds wore off they only last for like 12 hours and i take them at like 7 so it's 9 pm :((((

[hexed lance]

A time exists i prob should eep soon

[soft jacinth]

i feel you; you're fine. it happens to me too

[hard shadow]

i feel unnecessarily apologetic

[soft jacinth]

you are very apologetic and it is probably coming from a place of internalized racism. you are safe here

[hard shadow]

hm.. i wonder.. is it because i've been made to feel like my opinion is worthless and that i should serve to please white people? just pondering . ./s

u said it first ughhhh hh hh h couldn;t even make my satirical statmeent about it

[queen jackal]

no this was shade on someone else

dm me if u wnana know who

[hexed lance]

ill happily take the role of mod pesterer if it means nw ppl actualy feel safe to talk here

[grave pollen]

I would not say "you are safe here" when the topic of the day has been "ma pona has a racism problem" and the white people all went "nah couldn't be! proof please? Also where are all the nw people?"

[soft jacinth]

i think you should do this

[hard shadow]

is it jan Janet 🤫

[soft jacinth]

this is true actually

[hard shadow]

i didn't even know there was a shushing face emoji it's so silly

[soft jacinth]

i meant this thread specifically but no you're right this isn't a safe spacd

[hard shadow]

this thread feels pretty safe though

[soft jacinth]

should we make a gc

[queen jackal]

dm me if u wanna know who :3

[soft jacinth]

that's why i said it in the first place, but in hindsight a bad actor could show up here at any time. although, we could just mute them

so i guess it is safe?

[hexed lance]

we need to make this a more private thread

[soft jacinth]

agreed

[hexed lance]

so its actually safe

[hard shadow]

i trust the ppls whove been talking here

[soft jacinth]

I'm going to ping tepo

are we committed to private thread specifically or do we want a ticket

[hard shadow]

uhh

probably ticket for it's more ike

NOT IK

LIKE

LIKE ADVANCED

[hexed lance]

toki pona typo

[hard shadow]

"probably ticket for it's more like advanced"
that's what i meant to said

every minute my adhd gets stronger and stronger

[soft jacinth]

okay so. ticket?

[hard shadow]

yea

[soft jacinth]

@calm oak we would like a private ticket opened so soweli Apen and others can be safe to discuss this

pinging because im not certain hwo to do that

[queen jackal]

this might ber a good idea

[grave pollen]

you can /ticket open and then -adduser

[soft jacinth]

okay gonna go do that

[hard shadow]

groupchats do not have pluralkit and that's very important for me

[queen jackal]

though I worry other nonwhite people will be kept out of it it'd just be aspen + white people gc

[soft jacinth]

or actually wait

soweli Apen should be the one to do that, right?

[queen jackal]

oh totally fair

yeah ticket

[hard shadow]

the sitcom
White people + our token NW Character !!!

a gatinha com mãos ↩️

[Reply to:](#1088975581422551041 message) though I worry other nonwhite people will be kept out of it it'd just be aspen + white people gc

[queen jackal]

make a ticket aspen

[hard shadow]

uhhhh uhhhmmm ohh how do i do this errmmmm

[soft jacinth]

-ticket open

[supple mantle]

is it worth making it less accessible while so far it's been safe?

[unique jay]

Ticket #2798 opened in #2798-antiracism-safespace

[soft jacinth]

do that

[soft jacinth]

yes

[hard shadow]

who else do i add

oh yeah jan Deni

[soft jacinth]

like. the goal is for nw people to feel safe and we are going to make sacrifices to that end. other conversations on antiracism can be conducted

[grave pollen]

me please

yeah

[hard shadow]

and probably smeeslug

[grave pollen]

also after jan Suko does the summarizing work I will also run that stuff over to kama sona

[hard shadow]

uhh who else

jan Suko right

[queen jackal]

have I been added

yes

[grave pollen]

lipamanka?

[hard shadow]

yeah

u were the first person added actually

if im missing anyone we can talk in the ticket

[supple mantle]

ngl i asked mostly because aspen said they felt safe and several white people said no this needs to be a ticket. was just checking in

[hexed lance]

gnight mapona

[supple mantle]

o lape pona!

[hard shadow]

atchoo
this is my mobile account

[ashen folio]

\meow

[hard shadow]

also if this isnt too nitpicky
make the report this to mods emoji less scary so ppl feel less weary about using it

[supple mantle]

gotta get the balance of not looking scary and not looking like a regular react emote

[hard shadow]

actually true

didnt think of that tbh

[grave pollen]

people mainly need to just know it exists which is really hard

[hard shadow]

isnt this already on the intro rules thing

[grave pollen]

wrong timing - they don't need to use it at the time they join the server and read the rules

[hard shadow]

then how will they know it exists

[grave pollen]

they have to be told

if you see someone talking to a person who needs mod action but mods aren't actioning then tell the person talking to the problem about when you use it

[hard shadow]

alr

[grave pollen]

generally if they see the usage at the time they need to use it, they will remember

Comprehensible input

[hard shadow]

mhm

alr im actually eeping now

[grave pollen]

oepo

[hasty briar]

mi kama sin

[supple mantle]

o kama pona

[calm oak]

i see you figured it out

[soft jacinth]

yes ty

sorry for unnecessary ping

[unique jay]

Reminder for @queen jackal

Reminder from YAGPDB

sum up the thing

[queen jackal]

I'll do it in the ticket

[hasty briar]

Is there space for me in the ticket

OK if not

[calm oak]

u are in it

[hasty briar]

oh lol

[hard shadow]

I will check this out once I’m caught up!

jan Suko ↩️

[Reply to:](#1088975581422551041 message) Beginning of a Google Doc … 📎

[lunar quarry]

have you seen the old google doc from a year ago? it would be good to combine the information from both of these to make sure we're retaining all the discussion from back then, too

#1088975581422551041 message

[soft jacinth]

meant to put that elsewhere lol

[hasty briar]

I added a section with a separate header (for visibility) to the newer doc that links to this one

Thank you for the reference and for compiling it ☺️

[cinder pawn]

could i get a small explanation of why this is racist?

[grave pollen]

sec

here's one https://www.teenvogue.com/story/digital-blackface-reaction-gifs

"based" is a bit of a particular case in that it was kind of intentionally coopted from AAVE by racists and then spread predictably to gamers and internet folk etc

I think it might be better to say to be aware of the language you use and whether the things you're picking up in your speech are appropriating vs participating in culture

[cinder pawn]

I think that should be clarified, there's a big difference between using "based" because you like the word/appreciate it's existance and claiming it

same thing with gifs, just prohibiting the use of them doesn't sound like a good idea, because how you use it and why is very important

[hasty briar]

@grave pollen @cinder pawn this was a really well worded argument against having a public list of "don't behave like this" type of items at all in the first place, using the same line of thinking that you all have just shared here:

#toki-lawa message
I am not sure if I should remove that whole section from the Google doc since it it is (and will always be) incomplete and because of this type of concern.
CC: waso laso kutemu tan @tender sentinel

I didn't have the bandwidth to do a lot of critical thinking on how the document is structured and what all I threw in it at the time, I was just scraping the chat for things people seemed to engage with

[cinder pawn]

I think it could be reworded to "be careful/do note how this actions are/can be used"

or something like that

[hasty briar]

I believe it is still editable by all if you're still in there and are willing/able to tweak the wording :)

[cinder pawn]

ante la does the "Action items" mean "this will be applied" or "proposals"?

oh and i think this could be more easily resolved by just not allowing anyone but mods and the bot speak in toki-lawa and just opening a thread on every action where people want to talk about it

[hasty briar]

I renamed the doc, thanks for the catch. It had already been made clear in the content warning, for what it's worth

[cinder pawn]

oh, i read the cw first and with the gif and based part i forgot, sorry

[hasty briar]

Lol I relate to your randomly-select-text reading style

And don't be sorry the name was definitely wrong haha I didn't realize what the doc would be come when I created the name

[cinder pawn]

its ok
if you dont mind im going to reword some things as suggestions (not directly editing it so it can be accepted or not)

[hasty briar]

this suggestion would be blocked by technical issues with threads in this particular server

[hasty briar]

If you edit something to the point that it doesn't represent the thought that it's linked to in the small [1 2] number links, then please remove the reference :) Otherwise go ahead

[cinder pawn]

oh did you write that i should just edit in the doc? i didnt have time to see it

[hasty briar]

yes haha

[cinder pawn]

alr

[hasty briar]

There is always "History"

[cinder pawn]

true

[hasty briar]

if something looks weird and needs to be reverted

[grave pollen]

I like the idea of framing it as "here is the contextual background information for moderators to be aware of" and make it not like required rules reading for basic server members but have it be available if they want to read it, with the nuanced context, and have moderators be expected to familiarize themselves with it

because if it's short enough to expect random newbies to read, then it's too short to provide useful information

[supple mantle]

i think it also is a spectrum on the gifs. like i have seen a couple of times a gif of a guy with a wide open mouth and the camera circles him, and people using that Exudes wawa e bad vibes to me idk.

[grave pollen]

for sure it's a spectrum and that's part of the the difficulty with subtle racism and microaggressions

because it's usually contextual and it's usually subtle and it's usually a variable level of pain for people dealing with it

so it's very hard to have cut and fast rules for it

I think it's important we stay toward positive goals like "be x" rather than negative goals like "don't do x"

[hasty briar]

Oh yeah that could be one way of framing such a list

[grave pollen]

because it's far easier to say "the way [you] are acting right now gets in the way of 'be x'" than to try to explain why we have a [hypothetical] "don't use reaction gifs of black people" thing

[hasty briar]

yeah, exactly

[grave pollen]

that's why I phrased this here as positive goals: #toki-lawa message

[hasty briar]

Yeah I threw that whole list in the doc

[grave pollen]

I had some follow up items shortly after

[hasty briar]

including one follow-up item I spotted haha

[grave pollen]

but I think it's going to be a lot better for the community to be able to say "these are the values that are important to us and the rules are 'keep this in mind and don't stand for bullshit'" instead of playing legal whack a mole with specific forbidden behaviors

[hasty briar]

totally

[grave pollen]

👀 looking back it was just the one I think

[hasty briar]

And I think that would also be a better moderation experience

[grave pollen]

it was very off the cuff so I think the list I had felt incomplete

and that's why I felt there was more

[hasty briar]

The mod may be looking at toxic stuff, but when they read the rubric, they have reminders of what good feeling looks like

[grave pollen]

right

and it helps stem complaints about rule enforcement, like "don't be a dick" is honestly the real underlying true rule and everything after that is stuff that frames what it means

[hasty briar]

haha way to phrase it as a negative

[grave pollen]

server rules: o pona

There is some signaling value in having explicit rules or at least community values posted too; I have enough experience now that I'd see something like "rules: o pona" as a red flag that the mods don't know how to make a place inclusive and safe, even if it's true and honest

so I think we do need the positive form

[hasty briar]

well o pona is grammatically positive

it's just empty

[grave pollen]

yeah

I think the format that ma pona adopted a while back in #lawa-rules of having the short rules + detailed explanation thread is probably overall positive

[hasty briar]

Agreed although the main subtitle for Rule 1 is still phrased using "Do not", and everything in Rule 3 is phrased that way. Probably fine for Rule 3, but Rule 1 could be reworded if desired

[grave pollen]

probably worth reworking entirely

I'd rather write something new first and then compare with the existing -> synthesize

vs trying to just update wording

more likely to have fresh ideas that way

[soft jacinth]

i really need to find the quotes on "covert" and "overt" racism as bad language in the book

[grave pollen]

"as bad language" ?

[soft jacinth]

sort of

i'll let the quote speak for itself once i find it

did you know that searching an audiobook for a phrase is the only thing worse than searching a paper book

[hasty briar]

Kendi, Ibram X.. How to Be an Antiracist. Random House Publishing Group.

The construct of covert institutional racism opens American eyes to racism and, ironically, closes them, too. Separating the overt individual from the covert institutional veils the specific policy choices that cause racial injustices and inequities, policies made by specific people. Covering up the specific policies and policymakers prevents us from identifying and replacing the specific policies and policymakers. We become unconscious to racist policymakers and policies as we lash out angrily at the abstract bogeyman of “the system.”
Kendi, Ibram X.. How to Be an Antiracist. Random House Publishing Group.

In the way investigators can figure out exactly who those church bombers were, antiracist researchers can figure out exactly what policies caused five hundred Black babies to die each year and exactly who put those policies in place. In the way people have learned to see racist abuse coming out of the mouths of racist individuals, people can learn to see racial inequities emerging from racist policies. All forms of racism are overt if our antiracist eyes are open to seeing racist policy in racial inequity.
Kendi, Ibram X.. How to Be an Antiracist. Random House Publishing Group.

Funny how I feel like I needed to be told that in order to see it even though it seems obvious in retrospect.

[soft jacinth]

not this part
EDIT: well that part, too, actually, but i was thinking of another quote

this part. found it in some slightly shady website that wouldn't let me view but a two-page big chunk of text, and i couldn't see the chapter title so i can't tell which chapter this is from, but the book immediately goes on to describe the inciting incident behind the BLM movement so it's whichever one that was

The term “institutionally racist policies” is more concrete than “institutional racism.” The term “racist policies” is more concrete than “institutionally racist policies,” since “institutional” and “policies” are redundant: Policies are institutional. But I still occasionally use the terms “institutional racism” and “systemic racism” and “structural racism” and “overt” and “covert.” They are like my first language of racism. But when we realize old words do not exactly and clearly convey what we are trying to describe, we should turn to new words. I struggle to concretely explain what “institutional racism” means to the Middle Eastern small businessman, the Black service worker, the White teacher, the Latinx nurse, the Asian factory worker, and the Native store clerk who do not take the courses on racism, do not read the books on racism, do not go to the lectures on racism, do not watch the specials on racism, do not listen to the podcasts on racism, do not attend the rallies against racism.

I try to keep everyday people in mind when I use “racist policies” instead of “institutional racism.”

Policymakers and policies make societies and institutions, not the other way around. The United States is a racist nation because its policymakers and policies have been racist from the beginning. The conviction that racist policymakers can be overtaken, and racist policies can be changed, and the racist minds of their victims can be changed, is disputed only by those invested in preserving racist policymakers, policies, and habits of thinking.

Racism has always been terminal and curable. Racism has always been recognizable and mortal.

[soft jacinth]

this is the part i was looking for!!!

All forms of racism are overt if our antiracist eyes are open to seeing racist policy and racial inequity.

[hasty briar]

yeah, that was my favorite part too

[grave pollen]

to be fair you've had a lifetime of propaganda telling you that racism is when someone says n-word and nothing else

[hearty yew]

In my profession we work frequently with people that've "breached" our company or violated some form of rule/ agreement within it.
Some very very boiled down categories we use include:

1. Directive controls (like the anti-racist acknowledgements that've been proposed) that direct people towards the correct way to act.
2. Detective controls (VERY important: it's how you notice something bad is going on) include automatic keyword searches and mods lurking
3. Corrective controls (like an offender giving an apology and the education mods provide to people within a ticket or in chat) are what you do to undo or smooth-out an incident.

Putting any idea of yours into one of these categories can you help keep track of what and why y'all do something. I highly recommend.

[hasty briar]

I appreciate this post and I think it is very well thought out for a corporate work setting where an employee already went through HR vetting to prove that they are a decent enough human. In the context of this server though it falls short of voicing that the top priority is protecting the people that can be harmed by this behavior

[grave pollen]

I mean, I think it's useful

the idea of active detection isn't too bad

[hasty briar]

Yeah

[grave pollen]

corrective controls we basically already have - people need to have a conversation and show some understanding of the problem or at least commit to not doing it, depending on the severity

[hasty briar]

Definitely would like to add the ideas to the longer list

[hearty yew]

Also meant to make the point that there's never one solution, so I'd encourage everyone to consider multiple of the suggestions that have been brought up in this thread.
If the priority is preventing an incident within the community (of thousands of people so borderline corporate) then there should be multiple layers of security imo

I'm not proposing ideas, moreso the way to ensure we have enough ideas

[hearty yew]

I see your point on vetting tho

[hasty briar]

I bet it’s been tried and rejected. Using a dumb system like keywords is going to be too noisy with false positives except for the most severe stuff like the n word, while using a smart system like interpretive AI is not culturally appropriate in this server

[hasty briar]

lol can you imagine three rounds of interviews just to be a member of a certain toki pona Discord server ☠️

[hearty yew]

Lmao ikr

[grave pollen]

is it?

it's worth considering maybe

like yeah the awful stuff will trigger it for sure, we can do that

the lesser cases are the parts that aren't entirely clear

[still dagger]

Just my two cents, active detection for things like racism/transphobia/bigotry etc only muddies the waters and causes dog whistles and other things to get created and fly under the radar. Which, based on gamergate/4chan/general bigotry/tiktok, simply serves to muddy the waters more.

Like we can all agree that there are certain jokes that shouldn't be made, and certain things that shouldn't be discussed, but we'll just end up in another situation where any combination of the colors purple and green (as a more well known example) is in fact not okay, and anyone that understands what that is and why that person is using it could just wind up getting gaslit.

What I'm getting at is that if active detection for anything other than the most obvious slurs, extremist groups are simply encouraged to further obscure what they're communicating, and they will. Moreover, it is often a draw for them because they think it's funny to fly under the radar, and are also aware that anyone trying to call them out will look insane.

@grave pollen this was meant to reply to you, specifically, but I hit the wrong message.

[hasty briar]

I think the missing detail here is that active detection does not imply automated moderation

It sounds like we are talking about an automation that secretly lets mods know that someone said a term that the mods plugged into it earlier, at which point the mods can go see if it's worth acting on, and do so in a human way, making sure not to make it obvious that they got pinged by a bot

[grave pollen]

yeah that's what I had in mind

[soft jacinth]

what about "preventative controls / preventative measures", are those directive controls?

[hearty yew]

You're right, that's another category! I didn't include all types of controls but if anybody would like a comprehensive list: I consider this to be a reliable source.
https://www.infosectrain.com/blog/types-of-security-controls/

I recently passed the Security+ exam for IT guys so that's the info I'm framing with

[hasty briar]

Does this imply a separate exam for other genders of IT professionals?

[supple mantle]

i like guys as gender neutral

[hasty briar]

I like hearing "guys" being used as gender neutral by people who are not cisgender men

[hearty yew]

Lol yeah instead of the Security+ exam they take the SecurityLGBTQ+
It's a lot more open

[hasty briar]

honestly not a bad idea to throw in some anti-racism/sexism/homophobia/etc into IT Security trainings

[hearty yew]

It still really surprises me how few women I see in this east coast tech space considering how many women I knew from college that were studying this.
I was in a meeting today and I noticed a new lady-face and thought "hell yeah" but then the boss said "this is our HR intern" and I was like DAMMIT 🤣

[grave pollen]

I've known a few great women in tech, they've universally reported that it's a constant uphill battle against the rampant sexism (which I've seen a lot of first hand, but even then the worst of it happens when people aren't looking)

but basically: if there's a minority group who is conspicuously absent from a place: there is a reason.

[hasty briar]

that is a brilliant full-circle back to doing the work of anti-racism in ma pona

[hearty yew]

In weeks past I've noticed some people bring up a lack of representation as an issue in MPPTK.
Can't remember if it was anyone here, but are there specific groups y'all know about with regard to this?

[grave pollen]

mpptk?

[hearty yew]

ma pona pi toki pona

oop mi lipu ike

*mpptp

[grave pollen]

a

are there specific groups y'all know about with regard to this?
What do you mean?

[hasty briar]

some people bring up a lack of representation as an issue in MPPTK
probably as in:
which groups are underrepresented?
if that's the case, then the currently pressing answer:
people of color

[queen jackal]

the word guy feels gendered to me usually but not always. I call myself a guy often but it's hard to know other's intentions unless I know them

[hasty briar]

haha well your preferred pronouns are it/its or they, so I usually assume that if you use the word "guy" it must mean that you've raced through thoughts of whether to use it or not, and probably aren't using it simply because that's the only word you ever use

[queen jackal]

if you used guy for me I'd be fine with it for example

because we have had conversations about my gender and pronouns and I know that I think idk

[hasty briar]

that's generous :) and good to know

I want to avoid using it for my own personal growth reasons, I guess unless someone insists that I call them that

[queen jackal]

this is a great course of action

[hasty briar]

I guess it's more case-by-case than that—if I was talking to an FTM person and he looked like he needed to feel reassured and seen, I might choose to use the word "guy" and make it sound as casual as possible for the effect

But in my mind I would be fighting the urge to avoid it because of all the other reasons

[lunar quarry]

i hate being referred to as such and have difficulty taking it in good faith

i think a lot of people's judgement of it as gender neutral is based on "does this word feel strongly gendered to me" and they don't consider the material fact of like. how often do you actually call a woman a guy. because it's not very often

[lunar quarry]

my nasin is to generally just use whatever gendered terms for people i know to be men/women/masc/fem, and do my best to keep a mental model of exceptions im aware with for people i know

degendering is kinda frustrating for a lot of trans people and i wouldn't wanna make a trans guy feel weird by overly avoiding gendered language when they'd take it as a big compliment

but i had for example a friend who's a trans man, but hated being called man in the vocative. so i try and remember that kinda stuff

i think vocative is a good description of that idk. like "man this sucks" for example

[queen jackal]

to add on/rephrase or wahtever it often goes unspoken that "I use guy as gender neutral" primarily harms trans women

[lunar quarry]

yea

[queen jackal]

this seems more interjective usually, even though grammatically it could be analyzed as vocative, like "ilo Salinsen this sucks." but "man" is also an interjection in english is my preferred analysis

/jargon

/not helpful

[lunar quarry]

• i understand it's sometimes a really fun word for a lot of non-binary folks and others, not knocking that and how it can be gender neutral or genderfucky for others

[lunar quarry]

it was actually the kinda commen i was soliciting lol i forgot the word introjective. fits better

[queen jackal]

👍

I appreciate the clarification

/helpful /helping you /improving things

[hasty briar]

I wouldn't want to do this either, but I'm afraid I end up doing it anyway because I have trained myself to avoid it in general

It's something I'd have to un-learn around those particular trans guys, and then re-learn after disengaging from them, because my brain is really inflexible in this department

My brain doesn't like to acknowledge that different contexts call for different behavior

[analog rain]

I wish i grew up with y'all as my default 2nd person pronoun instead of you guys

trying to adopt y'all into my vocabulary but its hard

(this being said i like never use the singular as a gender neutral thing, that's weird. Unless maybe I'm calling myself a guy? Idk, im still iffy on whether i like using it for myself)

[hasty briar]

I have had (non-romantic) acquaintances call me “my guy” before

“What’s up my guy?”

Feels both nice and weird

[delicate sierra]

"guy" in many contexts is a quite beloved in the southern united states
even the queer community here uses it quite frequently, with the exceptions you'd expect, but from the sounds of it these exceptions are notably less frequent than elsewhere
which is a fascinating dynamic

[hearty yew]

People sleep on y'all and I get called out for using it sometimes but it's really just a super useful thing lol

[analog rain]

yep

[hasty briar]

Why do you get called out for it? It doesn’t seem harmful

[analog rain]

people might think youre making fun of southerners i guess? idk

its legitimately just a very good 2nd person plural though

[hearty yew]

I'm originally from the south so people find the accent funny. It's cute
Mostly talking about irl interaction

[hasty briar]

Oh they notice it and comment on it

I misunderstood your usage of “called out”

To me that means aggressive or punitive, like calling someone out for racism

[hearty yew]

The phrase "called out" is weird and ambivalent to me, especially since I started studying tech:
Every single course made by Google, for instance, uses the phrase "It's also important to call out blah blah blah" and I had the same reaction as you at first like "What, who's the problem?"

[hasty briar]

Oh true

I guess I mean specifically “to call out a person for something”

[hearty yew]

Yeah you're right in that regard

That's how I usually understand it but I spoke like google just then lol

[supple mantle]

it started ironically but ended up as part of my dialect; gamers as The gender neutral "guys, y'all, etc"

[hasty briar]

You just say “hey gamers” by default?

I would love to see someone doing that out of habit as a guest speaker at a meeting of elderly people

[hearty yew]

What's y'all's opinion of "boii" as in "Yeah boi" or "Dayum, boi"?
I feel like I already know the answer: "Don't say it to people with a pronouns.page"

[hasty briar]

Mmmm

Say it to people if you are confident about all of their pronouns

And only then

[supple mantle]

i'm all for All words getting genderneutralified

but i get that doesn't work for others

[hasty briar]

Yeah there’s a reason Star Trek stopped saying “where no man has gone before”

I was gonna say, ‘man could be a contraction of human, but then might as well do hu’ haha

[supple mantle]

did man or human come first ? idk. i understand it as a word for human.

[hasty briar]

Originally man meant husband

[hearty yew]

I think gender has no place in directing people in the first place.
The idea of gender and the obligations that come with it are the source of a lot of stuggle especially for those that struggle with "their own"
Edit: Gender isn't real imo

[supple mantle]

really i think the issue is that male is still kinda considered default. so words that are, or have been, or could be default/gender neutral, become "male" too.

[hasty briar]

But you can’t just wish its impact away

Does that mean “they” is on a timer? :/

[hearty yew]

In English idk if I'd agree because we don't really use gendered speech aside from implied meanings that vary from community and geography

[supple mantle]

nah the people that view male as default use he

[hearty yew]

As pronouns or for inanimate objects?

[supple mantle]

i have never ? been assumed to be a she

[calm oak]

today i learned https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wæpnedmann#Old_English

[supple mantle]

as pronouns for a person, usually

[hearty yew]

AYO xD

Didn't realize I needed to know this

[calm oak]

mije = jan pi palisa utala

[supple mantle]

weaponed man....

[hasty briar]

Hah I actually assumed you were she for a while 😇 until I had a reason to look for your pronouns

[supple mantle]

a a a i have never seen someone assume and use* she then

[hearty yew]

smee = shee
got it 👍
edit: don't got it

[supple mantle]

nah lol

[hearty yew]

oh lol

[hasty briar]

“from the noun wǣpn “weapon; penis””

😫

[supple mantle]

mann

wer and wif it looks like were the gendered terms

[hasty briar]

It’s an interesting history but I bet the language as a whole was not very antifeminist

e.g. “wife”

[analog rain]

i have only had this happen over the phone

[analog rain]

inanimate objects are sometimes she for some reason (especially boats)

which is weird

[analog rain]

thats the wer thats in werewolf

thats like the only place it really survived in english

[supple mantle]

yeah it's interesting sona

[lunar quarry]

that's really funny, i feel like where i am i mostly hear y'all used by gay people

[lunar quarry]

i also use gamers for gender neutral. it's really good and also works in the singular

[hasty briar]

Hello there, my interlocutors 🤓

[hard shadow]

i love using y'all

mun ni Salo ↩️

[Reply to:](#1088975581422551041 message) I wish i grew up with y'all as my default 2nd person pronoun instead of you guys

i use y'all

a lot

<- grew up in Texas

[queen jackal]

I see my veriety of language as something I can change at will

idk also my veriety is weird

like I grew up using this that yonder and nobody in my family or peer groups used it

I think I learned about it from a song?

[soft jacinth]

i use it because I was cursed with southerner disorder

[hard shadow]

this reminds me of "being a republican is a mental illness" lmaoo

[still dagger]

mi sama

[atomic nexus]

Okay so
I have a long, possibly confusing perspective to give on this:
I’m indian, I’ve mentioned that several times.
So I’m on this community, and a friend of mine (Who’s VERY leftist), made a post featuring lyrics from a song that felt weird to see. No one else brought that up. I’m almost certain that if it wasn’t an asian culture, they would’ve been dragged to hell and back.
India, Pakistan, and to an extent, China have been stereotyped in VERY weird ways. Is there any plan against that? /gen

[supple mantle]

some things, you can a message to alert mods to it. you could also bring it up in the discussion itself or if more comfortable you can bring it up somewhere like toki lawa, here, wile kulupu or something, where people may be able to help

[atomic nexus]

And a big question:
Will the mod team actually think that it’s racism?

[supple mantle]

almost certainly

[atomic nexus]

I need confirmation directly /gen

If that person, who was VERY leftist, thinks it’s funny

How do I know they do npr

[supple mantle]

i can't speak on behalf of the mod team. but antiracism is anti racism

and the suli! can also help somewhat

[hexed lance]

the mod team will trust you i firmly believe

[delicate sierra]

confirming: the mod team will trust you
the problem here, i think, is that it's harder to know in the first place when something racist is posted in a language none of the mod team speaks; we can't evaluate it without translation tools, and likely won't see it without it being brought to our attention
but you're free to open a ticket and explain, or just report the specific message

(frankly, point two about things being unseen just happens all the time to anything cause the space is much larger than we can see without reports coming in)

[grave pollen]

if you think they might not get it, you can also use /ticket to open a private chat with the mod team

you can explain where the racism is, if they aren't seeing it

also consider applying to be a mod

if you'd like

I'm sure the team would be happy to have people from broader backgrounds

[hasty briar]

What’s the process he or anyone else should follow?

[slate orbit]

mod form comes out every once in a while

you state whether you want to be on the team or not, and you state others you want on the team

[atomic nexus]

Thank you so much for verifying! /gen

[grave pollen]

I would also ask in #wile-kulupu, that's the historic system and I feel like there's a lot of folks who agree it doesn't work well as a system

with the server changes I'd hope we can be open to not just repeating the same half-broken structures that have existing for years

[slate orbit]

cool

[supple mantle]

there's also a ticket for toki antiracism/general safe space if you want to join, if you do let us know

[atomic nexus]

how can I asj to join?

[supple mantle]

you can ask here it should be fine

[rocky lichen]

Even leftists are unintentionally racist sometimes. Hopefully they will be able to learn from their mistake

[atomic nexus]

I am now officially asking

[hasty briar]

mi kama e sina la sina lon a ☺️ kama pona

[wary spindle]

i, too, am officially asking

[slate orbit]

sina li

actually can i also officially ask

[hasty briar]

pakala · toki ‹ li lon › li kama toki wan lon lawa mi la mi pakala e ni lon tenpo ale 😝

[slate orbit]

a a a a

[soft jacinth]

what if we had recurring antiracism conversations open up in an effort to get the wider community on board with antiracism

like somehow we have to go from where we are now to having the other people here be less racist

[hasty briar]

Yes, it would probably require having a mindfully conceived event hosted by anti-racist white people in such a way that non-white people wouldn't be accidentally exposed to any racist ideas that get expressed there, and in such a way that these racist ideas can be addressed immediately and skillfully, avoiding any sort of self-reinforcing racist echo chamber.

[soft jacinth]

i think this is the main thing

we need to ideate on how to do this

right now, the server is still pretty racist

mandatory reading for the mod team isn't a bad idea but it also would only go so far in helping

[hard shadow]

that would only (immediately) help the mods anusem

are we trying to just
inform the mods better on what should be acted upon and what shouldnt?

or like
educating the entire server peeps about antiracism or smth like that

or both,

[soft jacinth]

both is what i'm saying

like i brought up the idea of mandatory reading for the mods a while back and i thought there was a positive response to that

but i'm also not convinced it will be enough

[hard shadow]

well ye

ig the only thing holding me back from talking about race in the regular chats is just. ppls reaction

[soft jacinth]

ppls reaction
what do you mean?

[hard shadow]

like. killing chat
i saw someone just said 'ok' last time i posted a thing

and just. general bad vibes
like everyones just staring at me

but i suppose it must be done !

but i also suppose i shouldnt just. do this alone

maybe we can look into some important cultural dates coming up to post stuff

or just. post whenever

maybe ppl will trust these more from mods and more popular people than a dingus like me :3 /lh

esp since. i dont even chat here often

which sucks bc idk whats going on here very well!

its more important to help ppl be more culturally. literate than avoiding white ppl (uncluding my) uncomfortableness

sowelaso | ⩙ ↩️

[Reply to:](#1088975581422551041 message) but i suppose it must be done !

decentering!

[soft jacinth]

hmmm

[soft jacinth]

why does this happen

are uneducated white people scared to say anything?

is that what's going on?

[hard shadow]

well ig they just dont expect it

but also prob uncomfortability from seeing stuff about race at all

esp for ppl who think theyre colorblind idk

[slate orbit]

for the record i miss your posting in toki-pona-kin

i read most of those, they were good reads

[soft jacinth]

does anybody have a link to that article or maybe video that was like "anti whiteness is good actually"

[hasty briar]

https://youtu.be/Wc9sHQ5OxpU

Disclaimer: Philosynoir, the content creator above, seems to be using a definition of "Antiracist" that is more narrow than the definition used by Ibram X. Kendi in the book "How to Be an Antiracist". Philosynoir says that "Antiracist" doesn't go far enough and that "Anti-Whiteness" is the new benchmark. However, based on my reading, I think that Ibram X. Kendi would say that Philosynoir's idea of "Anti-Whiteness" is a crucial component of the larger work of antiracism, rather than something separate from antiracism, and he defines "antiracism" more broadly and more strongly than Philosynoir.

[soft jacinth]

ty

[soft jacinth]

this is a super useful foreword as well

[soft jacinth]

I think I know a thing that would really help

a dedicated entire channel to antiracism should be added to the server, with a ping announcing its addition. we give a heads up in the ping itself that a bunch of racism is about to take place all at once so the BIPOC people are aware and don't get hurt by it, then we address all the people who say & do racist stuff in response to the ping

from there on the channel itself serves as a place to spot racists & to contribute to antiracism within the server & without

this channel should be enabled by default and not locked behind a role, and carefully watched by the mods & suli! members

fair warning I am manic right now i think so this may be a terrible idea in a number of ways

[lunar quarry]

i am not really sure if it's a fantastic idea or even very different from this channel

[hasty briar]

This was a helpful thing to throw in at the end! I can think of a few times I should have probably made this disclaimer myself in the past… lol

[lunar quarry]

in general i think like "people are racist in response to a big ping about anti-racism" is something that should be like. mitigated or prevented as a harm as much as possible, instead of just warning people about it

[soft jacinth]

maybe channel + no ping?

part of why this is so buried is because it's in a forum rather than a channel

[lunar quarry]

i also think this situation is pretty untenable to moderate effectively, and it's an important factor to take into consideration with like. intending a place to spot and moderate racists

like there are times when moderators will be offline/low on energy/bad at moderation, and in these cases it's kinda bad i think to have a space built for people to be mask off about racism

[hasty briar]

Would it be possible to guesstimate how many moderators are online on average at any given time? Would it be possible to guessitmate how many hours per week there are on average when no moderator is actively monitoring chat? (And would that be safe to share?)

[lunar quarry]

in general I've seen a couple times it get proposed that in some sense, we should like "smoke out the racists" i guess. like we should find ways to actively make racists show their racism

i question the utility of this; this process involves trying to get racism to happen in the open, and im not sure that's necessarily helpful

it's true that there will always be people here who are privately racist but have not made it known yet in the server. kinda sucks and might be nice if they're not here, but baiting them into being outwardly racist so we can find them is something I'm not sure is helpful

[lunar quarry]

it's probably not hard to guess and could hypothetically be bad to share but like. not hard to tell a lot of us are in north america and active in north american awake time hours

[hasty briar]

fair. And yeah, I have heard the argument against baiting racists into outing themselves before and I agree that this is a fraught approach

[soft jacinth]

yeah i'm seeing this side too now

boo mania

i think we focus on asking BIPOC members what specifically has been uncomfortable for them and get feedback on what needs to be prevented maybe

sucks to make people talk about their trauma though so idk

[lunar quarry]

like "if people are privately racist then what if they later become publicly racist. we have to stop them" is a fine impulse but coaxing out the public racism in the name of stopping them is already reaching the fail state of the premise

[hasty briar]

In my experience a lot of it seems like stuff that is really hard to prevent. As soon as one person starts being racist, I've heard non-white people say they already end up feeling like they don't want to be here even if that incident is moderated quickly and effectively.

It happens so frequently because it's such a large server, that new non-white folks don't end up developing an attachment to the community that will carry them through those incidents before they start feeling the distaste

[lunar quarry]

we do have some such members who have done a lot to volunteer their experience and thoughts but it seems like not a lot of them have given input super recently

there aren't a lot of BIPOC who I've seen actively contributing to these discussions which kinda sucks cos it means that if one or two people are busy having a life or something, then there's nobody left lol

i can't read anyone's minds but it also seems to me like a lot of the discussion in this channel is not super concrete and at least lately it's coming from a lot of white people (myself included lol) and it might be possible that this just doesn't feel worth engaging with for some people

[lunar quarry]

yea the problem with moderating in reaction to an incident is that the incident has to happen first. in some sense it guarantees a degree of failure

moderating someone after they are racist requires them being racist first before they're moderated so. you've already kinda failed

I don't know what all the best preventative strategies look like

generally a good one is moderating people for smaller stuff, that's still potentially problematic but more within people's comfort zones of what they're willing to be exposed to

like instead of waiting for someone to talk about wanting to go to an island and speak toki pona with people in a "tribe," you can explain to them the pitfalls of anti-Indigenous racism in worldbuilding when they say they wanna design a toki pona flag, or something

not every incident of racism is predictable in advance so this doesn't apply to everything but i think it's useful for some cases

potentially there isn't a perfect solution for some of these cases

like it's definitely possible for someone to join and say something egregiously bigoted in a way that's fully unpredictable, and moderating them after the fact is the most that can be done

[supple mantle]

yeah i got the feeling that the suggestion was less about egregious bigotry and more about General Ignorance and willingness to talk about shit they do not understand well (like what happened with the antiracism discussion ping)

the "where is the racism i don't see it, why does it matter" types

[soft jacinth]

this is exactly what i was anticipating an outpouring of

and exactly what I want to protect us from

were generally good against the people everybody realizes are racist

who misinterpret statistics at you until you ban them

but folks who just. are fish-in-the-water about racism are what i'm trying to figure out how to address

[hexed lance]

this could be something like
posting resources and articles about race and racism and other social justice things
or just. talking about race

making or translating stuff into toki pona

like someone wanted to do a thing for juneteenth which. we didnt

[atomic nexus]

Racism is only solvable if we talk about it clearly, and loudly
Make it clear
Give people room to contribute

If we dont talk rnough about it

It’s more easily ignored

[hasty briar]

I tried to but it didn’t feel good to the people who I asked to review it and we decided we needed to get feedback from nonwhite people on the terminology I used and that’s where it stalled out

[hexed lance]

a

[slate orbit]

a bunch of racism is about to take place all at once so the BIPOC people are aware and don't get hurt by it
this. isn't really how it works kinda?

we don't want to get racism and filter it out, we want to not have it at all, do we not?

[slate orbit]

yea this

[slate orbit]

yes! this is my point

[soft jacinth]

yeah this idea sucked & was the mania~mania-adjacent state talking

[slate orbit]

alp

[atomic nexus]

Also

for those who exhibit patterns of behaviour that is racist despite not explicitly saying so

Ask WHY

[hasty briar]

But in private 😇 if possible
Like in a ticket

[soft jacinth]

• i want to reach out to other discord servers that are safe for BIPOC members and see what they do and maybe see if we can get someone from there to come over and help us
• i have a revamped version of the entry quiz idea ported from an intersectional feminist server that i have an inordinate amount of thoughts about

[soft jacinth]

• the mod team is only really beholden only to the active members of the community whom people actually listen to. in practice as far as i'm aware this group is basically entirely white

[grave pollen]

other discord servers that are safe for BIPOC members
Ok so the sad part here is all the BIPOC people I've asked about safe toki pona servers say they don't know of any. This was a while ago fwiw, maybe it's better now

[soft jacinth]

https://www.tumblr.com/fandomshatepeopleofcolor/753907192714887168?source=share

here's some good advice for white people about how to, like, be antiracist

[kind nest]

I have a question about this in particular, because I feel like I have stated an opinion about this and got backlash for it, and I do want to understand a bit better, should I ask it here or in nasin?

[hasty briar]

If you’re worried about backlash nasin is a good place or you could open a new ticket (use the command /tickets open subject: [subject]) unless the backlash you got was from mods or users who are in nasin

[kind nest]

oh it was one of the previous anti racist threads that has been deleted as far as I can see because I can't find the history

I also have a feeling creating a ticket may not be necessary if we are going to talk just among mods

I will try formulating a question for nasin though, it might just take me a while as I'm traveling

[hasty briar]

o tawa pona ☺️

[upper drift]

mu

[hard shadow]

mu a

[upper drift]

now is a great time for me to remind people to use the emote a ton