linja lipamanka

[rough drum]

changes for accessibility?

[agile barn]

yeah or legibility may be a better word. i noticed even proficient speakers continuing to mix the two glyphs and so brought it up to Temake and waso Keli and the three of us brainstormed alternate glyphs for a while

[rough drum]

as the resident Reading Disorder haver …

idk legibility is pretty big

[agile barn]

yeah

I don't even have a disorder and i still was frustrates enough by mi/sina to change them a little

tbh I am very excited about the new mi/sina thingy

[rough drum]

i would love to see them

[agile barn]

o lukin

mi pana e "mi" tu tan Big Meanie mi

[rough drum]

idk this is giving me “we need a dyslexia friendly font!!!” from that one reddit post

aside from that they do look cool

[loud jetty]

mi ante, sina ante

[rough drum]

these are perfect 👍

added

replaced the based

[loud jetty]

wawa

[agile barn]

don't get mad but the "accessibility" here isn't specifically for disabled people it is for Almost Everyone since it seems Almost Everyone has this problem

[loud jetty]

/dontgetmad

[rough drum]

do they think

*tho

[loud jetty]

i think they do tbh

jan mute li musi mi la ona li pakala lon nimi ni:

• mi, sina
• kama, tawa
• toki, sona (tan sitelen leko)

mi kin li pakala lon tenpo

lon la jan pi mute suli a li kepeken ala sitelen pona li pakala lon tenpo kepeken

[agile barn]

jan Kekan San kin li ni lon sitelen tawa ona

[rough drum]

i kinda wanna say skill issue get good

i’m not gonna say that tho that’s rude

[agile barn]

kin jan Kekan San en jan ante pi toki pona wawa li ni

[lapis loom]

Wait what is the new mi and sina I’m missing context

Nvm

Hmm they’re alright I suppose
I won’t personally use them but yeah

[agile barn]

i personally already use them and am very excited about them

i like them a lot

[loud jetty]

waso mu li wawa li lukin pakala e nimi sina
https://youtu.be/MYdM-jvZkZY?t=5m42s
jan Kekan San li wawa li lukin pakala e nimi mi
https://youtu.be/xi8gUvqyMm4?t=6m3s

jan ante kin o musi mi o pakala sama 😌

[rough drum]

pilin mi la jan Kekan San li wawa suli ala lon sitelen pona

ona li toki e ni

wawa pi toki pona li sama ala wawa pi sitelen pona

[loud jetty]

sama ala

[agile barn]

mi pilin sama. taso awen la sitelen sin mi li lili e skill floor ona

[rough drum]

tan seme la skill floor o lili

[agile barn]

ni li ijo pona taso. tan seme la ona o lili ala

[rough drum]

mi o sama toki Inli e toki pona tan ni: jan li ken kama wawa sona

[white cove]

mi toki e ni lon tenpo weka. mi suli e sona tan ni: musi pi waso Keli li pona la mi wile sona a
mi kama wawa lon sitelen pona 💪

[rough drum]

taso sina awen pakala lon nimi mi sina anu seme

[loud jetty]

mi ante, sina ante, ona ante

[white cove]

ala

[rough drum]

pona

jan wawa li pakala ala lon ni

[white cove]

ni li suli ala tawa mi
sitelen sin li kama tawa nimi ni li pona tawa sitelen lon la ona o lon o pona

[rough drum]

a sitelen sin li ike ala tawa mi

[cinder wyvern]

seme, o, kin

😛

[rough drum]

ni li suli tawa mi: jan li toki. “sitelen ni li SULI MUTE”

ona li kepeken nimi “accessibility” la ona li toki e jan ni: ona li lukin e sitelen la wawa li lili (ni li mi)

[white cove]

sina suli e nimi la lawa mi li pana e kalama musi ni: sewli mootay

[white cove]

sitelen ante li ken pona tawa ni tawa sina la ni li suli seme? sitelen sin li ken lon li ken ni

[agile barn]

taso ni li lili ala e skill floor tawa jan pi toki ale. ante mi li pona tawa jan pi toki ale

[rough drum]

ni li lon ala. jan li pali e sitelen sin ni: ona li ante mute la ona li pona ala e ken tawa mi tawa jan sama

[white cove]

sina toki e ni anu seme: sitelen li ante la ni taso li pakala

[rough drum]

jan li wile kama sona la ona o kama sona e sitelen wan pi nimi mi sina

[white cove]

tan seme

[rough drum]

sitelen mute li suli e skill floor

[white cove]

mi kama sona e sitelen pi mute lili pi nimi wan la ni li musi pona tawa mi
nimi namako li ni
nimi kili li ni
nimi ante li ike seme

sina pana e sitelen ni tawa nasin sitelen sina

[agile barn]

kin sona poka li pana e sona kon pi nimi ni

[white cove]

sitelen wan o mute nanpa wan o suli nanpa wan
ona li ni lon tenpo ni tan ni: jan mute mute li sona e sitelen wan pi nimi wan. sitelen sin li tawa ala jan ale.
sitelen ante li pakala ala e ni

[rough drum]

mi toki a e ni

[loud jetty]

mi ante, sina, ona

[rough drum]

sitelen li ken ike ala

[cinder wyvern]

sina, sina, ona

[white cove]

sitelen nanpa wan li sina a

[rough drum]

o toki ala e ni: lon pi sitelen ni li pona lon poka pi sitelen majuna mi sina

[white cove]

poka seme

pona li poka anu seme
nimi li lon poka anu seme

[rough drum]

mi pana e nimi tu lon poka

mi lukin e pona ona

seme li pona mute

seme li pona lili

[white cove]

a, seme li ni?

[rough drum]

ijo li pona lon poka pi ijo ante la ona li pona nanpa wan

[white cove]

taso sina toki e ni: o toki ala e ni

mi sona ala e wile sina

[loud jetty]

mi ante, sina, ona

[cinder wyvern]

sina, sina, ona

[white cove]

a, sina, ona

[loud jetty]

a a

[cinder wyvern]

b, b, ona

[loud jetty]

sitelen open li b li d ala tan seme

[white cove]

ale pi toki pona o kama sona e nasin sitelen o kama wawa lon ni
ona li toki e nimi mi la ona o pana e sitelen pi sinpin ona
oan li toki e nimi sina e nimi ona la ona o pana e sitelen sinpin pi ona toki

[native trench]

6 b ona

[loud jetty]

a mi lukin pakala

[white cove]

(ni la ken ala sitelen)

[loud jetty]

sona

[rough drum]

seme

sona ala

[white cove]

mi anu seme

[rough drum]

sina

[rough drum]

ni

[agile barn]

mi kin toki e nasin ni

[rough drum]

pona

nasin mute li lon. sina lukin e nasin sin. ona li nasa lili la o alasa sona

[white cove]

toki lon la kepeken sitelen sama nimi sina
toki lon la kepeken sitelen sama nimi mi
musi

[agile barn]

sina pi toki ni li jan seme

[rough drum]

... a

[tepid tusk]

#7566 📣 ​
warning: in general, "a" is a very flexible word, its use can be different from person to person and is in general more broad than what is indicated here. nevertheless, these are some of the usual use-cases.

"a" at the beginning of the sentence can mean "ah" or "oh":
a ni li pona tawa mi - oh, this is good for me.

"a" at the end can emphasize the whole sentence.
ni li pona tawa mi a - this is good for me! :)

"a" directly after a word can emphasize that word.
ni li pona a tawa mi - this is great for me!

[cinder wyvern]

mi toki lon sina la mi kepeken sitelen "sina" sama nimi "sina"
mi toki lon mi la mi kepeken sitelen "mi" sama nimi "mi"
mi musi
mi sona e nasin
mi pilin pi ike lili lon nasin ni

[agile barn]

ona li tawa musi taso

[white cove]

ona li ike tawa mi kin, a a a
mi musi taso

[cinder wyvern]

mi sona

[agile barn]

mi nimi e ona tawa nasin pi jan suli

jan li suli ala li jo ala e sitelen lon ma pona la ona o toki ala

o pini e uta

[loud jetty]

pilin pona tan musi

[agile barn]

sina waso wan taso ala. sina kin o pini e uta

mi pali e toki pali sin. toki pali ni li lili nanpa wan. toki pona li suli tawa ona. tuki tiki kin li suli tawa ona. toki pali ni li toki pi pini uta. jan ale o toki ala

[loud jetty]

mu

[rough drum]

ante la

[loud jetty]

pona tawa lukin

kulupu sitelen alasa ala li suwi

[rough drum]

mi wile PONA e ona

[loud jetty]

mi toki ante 😌

taso o pona sina e ona

[rough drum]

a

[sonic linden]

ni li sitelen Losu seme?

/musi

[steady cape]

other than the M and S variations of mi and sina, aren't these others making m/s/o less distinctive? like if I were seeing those from the start then I could see the distinction, but flipping mi to look more like an altered sina seems... counterproductive

OH missed the other channel reference. Disregard

[cinder wyvern]

Hm, would it be beneficial to have special characters be converted to something else? Like # becoming numbersign(#) or ^ becoming asciicircum(^)? I have no idea if those are universal, but maybe referring to them through unicode would work?

[pale canopy]

hi how do i use the linja lipamanka?? a a

[rough drum]

check pins for the most recent version to install, or just use /sp on this server or in dms with @misty lantern

and set your preferences to linja lipamanka

[pale canopy]

oo thanks

[wispy rock]

hiii just noticed that by doing kon+jan i get kule instead of kon

[unkempt trellis]

lon

[loud jetty]

that's lipamanka subtly telling you that "kule jan" is a better choice of words for what you're trying to express

[rough drum]

wait what

so wired, this will be fixed in the next update whoops

[steady cape]

the breath of a person is also, by necessity, the color of a person (abstractly)

[wispy rock]

gotcha

[half sun]

is there a documentation of sorts for linja lipamanaka as there is for linja sike? if not is it pretty similar to linja sike's, like, system of typing?

[cinder wyvern]

not yet
it has some dissimilarities

[cinder wyvern]

cartouches: square brackets at the beginning and end of the cartouche, no underlines needed
long pi: use pi( at the beginning and ) at the end
combined glyphs: - for scaled combination, + for stacked combination

[half sun]

what about stuff like directional ni and alt glyphs?

[cinder wyvern]

alt glyphs work with numbers
directional ni wors with combinations of < v ^ >

[rough drum]

v on its own doesn’t do anything

[cinder wyvern]

@misty lantern sp "jaki2 jaki3 jaki4 kili5\nni niv< ni< ni<^ ni^ ni^> ni> niv>"

[rough drum]

oh right alt kili

[tepid leaf]

what's the \nni there

[rough drum]

\n is a linebreak

wow my font is good

[lean arrow]

those jaki are works of art

[rough drum]

thanks! they are all designed by community members and vectorized and finalized by me

[icy jolt]

ooo i like jaki3

[icy jolt]

wrong font.

[rough drum]

wow i dislike these jakis they’re not aesthetic …

maybe a little

idk

[icy jolt]

much better

[lapis loom]

Lipamanka which jaki is mine please tell me or don’t it’s your font

[rough drum]

I don't remember

but if you scroll up enough you'll find it

[cinder wyvern]

ni

[distant maple]

it is!!

[sonic linden]

3️⃣

[tepid leaf]

Beans for lipamanka

[rough drum]

is that the AMERICAN FLAG

[tepid leaf]

WHEEZE

yes my cat is a proud colonizer unfortunately (steals my food, blankets, and gives me Diseases)

Also she bites and maims me

[rough drum]

so real

oh my fuckinh god

[tepid leaf]

ME WHEN TORTIES

[white cove]

is that a t440p

[sturdy marlin]

ilough

[neon bobcat]

@rough drum what do you do in your font for like, custom names sitelen pona

cause i thought of a way to do it in my font but, thinking about it now it'd probably be better if it was semi-standardized with at least some other font

and maybe a standard already exists and i just don't know about it

[rough drum]

just normal ligatures

and I name them the ligature they use

[neon bobcat]

ohh

like literally just that

[rough drum]

yep

[neon bobcat]

cause yea i did normal ligatures but

[rough drum]

do not assign them codepoints

[neon bobcat]

my font's also meant for normal use

[rough drum]

yea

[neon bobcat]

so i made the standard be like

[rough drum]

or you might wanna do rlig instead of just normal lig

[neon bobcat]

sp[name]SP

so it's a sequence that's unlikely to happen unless someone intentionally is trying to get this ligature

[neon bobcat]

this is mainly what i was asking, if you'd done anything to stop it from conflicting with someone just typing that name in a non-tokipona context

but now i realize that if the font is meant primarily for sitelen pona, then that's not really an issue

[rough drum]

I mean is your font a ligature font?

the name you give the thing doesn't really matter too much

[neon bobcat]

if by that you just mean, "a font that uses ligatures" yea

also do you want me to put your name in there

it'd be like, really simplified down

[rough drum]

ohhh I see

sure yeah

lol

yeah I mean if it's also meant for english and other languages then do whatever

[loud jetty]

how do you type sitelen pona words like "a" and "open"? spaSP and spopenSP?

[white cove]

wawa 👍

soweli sina li suli seme, li lon tenpo seme?

a a a, ni li lon
jan suli pi pali mi li pana e ilo Z13 tawa mi tan wile mi, a a a

taso, ni li suwiii

[rough drum]

sina suwi

mun o

[white cove]

sina ken ala ken kepeken ilo sitelen ante?
mi sona e ona mute pi nasin pona

taso, mani...
https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
https://www.moergo.com/

[white cove]

aaa sina pona! mi alasa suwi, a a a

[rough drum]

qwertyuiop

asdfghjkl;

zxcvbnm,./

woah

[white cove]

aaa ni li ilo wawa
nimi ona li seme?

[rough drum]

I love qwerty

it's my FAVORITE

super erganomic

SOWELI

SOWELI

SOWELI

NOKA

[white cove]

ilo mi a

[rough drum]

SOWELI NOKA

[rough drum]

oh my god

why am I not surprised

[white cove]

ona li sin, a a a

mi alasa kama sona e nasin ona

a a a

[rough drum]

I like my normal keyboard and I am going to live for ever and i cannot comprehend the future

[loud jetty]

yet another dvorak tokiponist anu seme

[rough drum]

any other young people like me

lskdjf

any other able bodied young people like me

[loud jetty]

colemak is good too

[white cove]

• mi kepeken ilo i3 la mi pana e ijo mute tawa nena ante
• ... mi ni lon ilo ale.
• nena nanpa la mi kepeken ona sama nena pi sitelen toki

[loud jetty]

linear space 😔

[white cove]

tenpo weka la mi alasa kepeken ilo nena ni https://www.annepro.net/products/anne-pro-2
ona li lili ike tawa luka mi, nena ona li mute pi lili ike
ni tu la mi ken ala kepeken ona

lawa mi li wile e nena mute, a a a

a! tenpo mute la mi lukin e lipu r/ergomechkeyboards, mi lukin e ni: jan li pali e ilo pi nena mute luka luka taso anu seme?! mi sona ala e nasin ona a...

a a a, lon wawa

a, nasa
tenpo mute la mi lukin ala e toki anpa, mi lukin e pana ijo taso
taso! suli la mi lukin e lipu ilo tawa ni: seme li suli a lon pali mi?

taso, mi sona e ike ni lon lipu ante pi lipu Wesi...

ilo nena ale li wile e mani mute e pali mute 😔

musi wawa

mi kin li kama ken ala kepeken ilo mi tan ike luka... mi sitelen pi mute ike lon ni: monsi mi li awen ike, a a a
mi o lape e luka mi

sona a 😔 mi toki tawa jan sona tawa ni: mi pona e nasin awen mi

a! sina kin

o pona lon toki a!
(ni li tan seme a? mi sona e ni: lawa li ni e sina: sina pali e len suwi e len pona; taso ni li tan sama anu seme?)

[neon bobcat]

i've considered adding that in at some point but right now no, you just gotta use the codepoints

[loud jetty]

ahh that makes sense

[neon bobcat]

it would be neat to make all the sitelen pona typable just through an ascii keyboard

but since there's so many tools to convert sitelen Lasin into the codepoints for sitelen pona, i didn't thini it'd be a huge issue

[loud jetty]

yeah that makes sense!

cool that you get to mix English and sp in one font

[neon bobcat]

there's a lot more than those

i'm just kinda really into different writing systems

[loud jetty]

nice

[white cove]

nasa aaaa... lawa ale li sona ala pona :/ ona li pana li wile li ante e ijo, taso jan li suli ala tawa ona la ona li lukin ala e pona ante li lukin e mani ante taso. ijo li suli ala la ona li pali ala.

[split kernel]

how many fingers do you have??

[white cove]

mute!

[split kernel]

20 fingers, makes sense, since you have more than twice the number of keys on my keyboard

[white cove]

lmao

[tepid leaf]

this seems
excessive

i mean i'd use every part of it

but the poor in me is like... no

[split kernel]

it looks worse than a normal keyboard for ergonomics

[distant maple]

I hear a lot of talk about how some people with some disabilities (?) find monospaced fonts easier to read/more accessible/etc. Why would this be?

[loud jetty]

it's not specific to disability, it's general legibility

(which disproportionately impacts people with various reading-related disabilities)

if people are talking about it in toki pona spaces, they probably mean specifically sitelen pona and not e.g. sitelen Lasina

i've heard that some other natlang scripts (e.g. han characters) are more legible when they're monospaced, and someone who uses such a script is more qualified to give a good answer than me

but in the context of sitelen pona, for me specifically

if a font is monospaced, it's faster for me to identify where one symbol ends and the next begins

it also helps me to identify the silhouette of the symbol faster, which helps me to identify the symbol faster

generous spacing around each symbol helps with these things too

[loud jetty]

i think this is because
when i'm reading a variable width font, i need to read some of the symbols to identify where they end
like if i see a vertical line, i need to look at the stuff surrounding it to figure out if it's part of a sewi, part of a mute, an entire la

whereas if it's monospaced, there's no resolving-ambiguity step
i can skip straight to looking at the center of a symbol
without a bunch of extra saccades

look up "gestalt principles" for some adjacent reading btw

also look up "saccades" if you're not familiar with that term. it's how eyes work, eyes are cool

[tepid leaf]

it's not just that they're more legible, it's that that's how they've been written for a long time

waso Keli ↩️

[Reply to:](#1053850152932233266 message) i've heard that some other natlang scripts (e.g. han characters) are more legible when they're monos…

but yeah otherwise accurate

[loud jetty]

oh that makes sense

[distant maple]

sona pona a!

[steady cape]

monospace la sitelen Lasina li ken pona. ilo sitelen mute mi li sitelen kepeken nasin ni (ilo sitelen kiwen). mi la sitelen ale o sitelen ala kepeken sijelo sama. nimi suli o sitelen kepeken ni. nimi lili (sama nimi "pi") o sitelen ala.

[tepid leaf]

n mi sona ike e nasin ni
o pana e sitelen ona

[steady cape]

nasin sitelen pi sijelo sama la ilo sitelen kiwen li sitelen kepeken ni. suno ni la lawa mi li nasa lili 😅

Ilo ni

sitelen li mi. mi ken ala pana e sitelen wan. tan ni la mi pana e sitelen pi sitelen wan a a a

[loud jetty]

nena mute li lon ilo ni

[steady cape]

a

[loud jetty]

sike lili tu li lon sewi sitelen li ken e pana sitelen

[steady cape]

ona li ken ala e pana 😭

[loud jetty]

a pakala

[steady cape]

ona li pakala a a a

ken la mi pana.

[white cove]

mi lukin e ni la mi sona pakala e ni: ilo ni li moku e pu li pana e ko lipu
musi a

[neon bobcat]

mi wile pali sona e ijo sitelen pi sitelen pona

||idk if that's understandable at all but i kinda wanted to conceptualize a 44 key sitelen pona typewriter||

||at least containing everything in pu, and not needing any mechanics that standard latin typewriters didn't have||

||so since that'd be 88 unique strikes, the idea was to have a bunch of deadkeys that type common elements||

[loud jetty]

if you haven't already, check out the software keyboard Wakalito, which does something similar

doing it on a physical typewriter sounds like a really fun design challenge

[neon bobcat]

yea the main challange wouldve been with like, positioning

[loud jetty]

yeah

[neon bobcat]

some shapes would have to be there multiple times

like sike is the same shape but one big and one small

[neon bobcat]

thiis is neat though

kinda reminds me of the han character keyboards that use radicals for input

i might get back to the thing later, but here's a kinda messy illustration of the character combination thing, for the first step at least

like some of these don't look great, and typing two deadkeys plus something else whenever the three extenders element shows up wouldn't be great either

but i was thinking just doing this as much as possible at first to get it down to as few keys as possible

and then bring it back up to 44 keys/88 glyphs by giving some more stuff its own keys

[loud jetty]

yeah that's a good approach

[indigo flicker]

It’s still not there?

Or was it added in lowercase

[loud jetty]

oh no the spacing broke

[abstract solstice]

sound of glass shattering

[rough drum]

slkdfjl

[steady cape]

Using a 44 key mech may not even be necessary. If we limit ourselves to only the pu 120 then it can be achieved in 40 keys. Adding 4 more would give a total of 132 symbols, which would be well worth it. devote a key for that with an over-under line and two endcaps (using a triple shift system, which was common for 3-bank writers), and you still have 3 keys left for things like tonsi, punctuation, and maybe a couple well used words beyond pu

deadkey devoted to pi and a pi extension

[neon bobcat]

yea i was thinking 44 keys with just two shift positions cause in my experience those are the most common?

[steady cape]

44 is common, as is 46, usually with a single shift. The older machines with a triple layer system could get away with fewer. The best bet I'd see is probably the shift/figs on a full size, which is more akin to other language typewriters with extensive characters. There's a Chinese typewriter that's a drum of strikers, but that's unnecessary.

I'll need to look in my collection to see how many is most common.

[rough drum]

reminder to future me: make more alt glyphs for everything! alt kasi, alt laso, alt kalama (slightly different angle), also other things, idk !!!

also extendable taso

[white cove]

tenpo seme la taso suli

[loud jetty]

extendable taso

[vestal vault]

lol

[white cove]

palisa taso :)

[rough drum]

oh my gif

[tepid leaf]

wh would alt kasi be

lipamanka ↩️

[Reply to:](#1053850152932233266 message) reminder to future me: make more alt glyphs for everything! alt kasi, alt laso, alt kalama (slightly…

[rough drum]

just drawn differently a bit

basically sitelen pona is easier to read when there’s a decent amount of variation in glyphs of like content words is what i found

like ko for example

that section where every sentence starts with ko and it’s a different ko every time is so fun to read

[tepid leaf]

so you're saying we should just handwrite things anyway :p

[rough drum]

of course

but like i want to be able to use my font the way i’d like to write things probably

[tawdry shale]

if you're gonna make alts for everything, given that some of them are only slightly different from the first version, here's an idea for a future font:
have, for example, 4 versions of the same glyph, all which follow the same main shape but with slight deviations, then (and here comes the part I have no idea how to do) randomise which one gets chosen when you type a word, so that you'd get a much more realistic handwritten feel

oh you kinda already talked about something similar after your message

I don't even know if there's a font for latin characters that does this

[rough drum]

RAND doesn’t really work very well

[rough drum]

(to rephrase, it’s technically possible but no program would render it correctly)

[loud jetty]

Linku would right? that's arguably worth it in and of itself

[tepid leaf]

for whatever reason i don’t think it works with linja lipamanka

waso Keli ↩️

[Reply to:](#1053850152932233266 message) Linku would right? that's arguably worth it in and of itself

we’d have to look into that

i can see that it works with fiarfax

[loud jetty]

ahh

[cinder wyvern]

Fairfax works because there's something in addition to RAND

It's a contextual ligature, it goes from jaki#1 to jaki#whatever in a loop

[lean arrow]

flipped taso? taso> ?

[lean arrow]

did you manually input each version by identity? I thought you had something where the font would pick randomly for like jaki etc

[rough drum]

i picked all of the ones on my website now manually

[lean arrow]

aaa

🤔 I feel like there's a big space possible for a text editing tool that does a prettification pass over text

using something like ilo Namen to make cartouches for example

potentially either flagging or automatically forming some compound glyphs

it could handle randomizing selection among the alt-y glyphs

[rough drum]

idk

[tepid leaf]

request for UCSUR sitelen kalama support (the dots)

[lean arrow]

a font that supports them?

I think linja lipamanka works with . and :

?

[misty lantern]

Set font preference for jan Deni to linja lipamanka.

[tepid leaf]

yes, in ascii

not UCSUR

[lean arrow]

ah you want it specifically to have glyphs at the unicode codepoint for interpunct?

that would be good

[tepid leaf]

no, for the UCSUR codepoints 󱦜󱦝

[lean arrow]

ahhhh

👀

F199C  SITELEN PONA MIDDLE DOT
F199D  SITELEN PONA COLON

(It should also support the unicode one)

... md

[tepid tusk]

#5230 📣 ·

[lean arrow]

oh it does!

I guess it was another font that didn't, or a previous version maybe

[tepid leaf]

^doesn't work in linja lipamanka

interesting how nasin nanpa looks like a generally squarer linja lipamanka

[rough drum]

okay next time i work on linja lipamanka full UCSUR support will be prioritized!

[lean arrow]

<333

[tepid leaf]

pona a

[misty lantern]

Set font preference for kije Enki 󱦀󱦐󱤊󱦒󱦝󱦒󱦀󱦒󱦜󱦒󱦑 to linja lipamanka.

[wispy rock]

hey! just found out that alternate glyphs like ko2 break the cartouche

[rough drum]

all of the alternates break cartouches for the time being

[wispy rock]

gotchya.,

do we have plans for adding pake still?

did we already and i'm unknowingly using an old version of linjamanka?

[rough drum]

yeah full UCSUR support coming out next

[wispy rock]

aaa gotcha

[rough drum]

but pake is definitely not a priority for me like who uses it.... (not meant to be dismissive)

[wispy rock]

gwaaaa 😔 dang arrighty

[subtle lintel]

@rough drum oh my, it’s gruesome how you used those hebrew letters to form your name

[rough drum]

yeah it's to make fun of how people use scripts to represent the latin script for the aesthetic

bc I'm jewish

I'm doing it to make fun of them

[subtle lintel]

ok then I’m relieved!

[worn nova]

is it not public info that lipamanka is jewish?

[subtle lintel]

I knew

but that doesn’t explain such a ike usage of letters

[tepid leaf]

lipamanka I think you need to be more Jewish

[worn nova]

a a a lon

[tepid leaf]

Become Aggressively Jewish while I become Aggressively Indigenous it’s the only way we can solve bigotry

[rough drum]

okay !

[lean arrow]

nasin pona

[icy jolt]

i should be aggressively jewish,,

[tepid leaf]

You should

[rough drum]

every day i will replace a common word with a yiddish one

[neon bobcat]

i was a lot happier before i realized that's what was going on

i was like "oh hey dagesh variant of a letter, that's prolly something in yiddish isnt it"

and now it's like oh..........................................

i respect the making fun of people who do that sorta thing seriously, but faux nonlatin's always gonna hurt me

[lean arrow]

anyway, namako -> 🌶️

way better

[cinder wyvern]

I think that emoji is closer to that character shape than other emoji for the other character shape. So for you sitelen Emosi users, it makes sense

[rough drum]

no like the sitelen pona glyph

[lean arrow]

also it helps with confusable glyphs

like, sin, namako, majuna don't really have much indication of what's going on

making namako have its own style is great

[cinder wyvern]

Yeah I'm not going to continue this discussion

[lean arrow]

I'm having a hard time understanding the tone you mean

[rough drum]

I think he just means it would be unproductive

I think we can agree to disagree on this one

[cinder wyvern]

Yes, sorry, my tone is more that it's been unproductively discussed in the past and it's not as much fun being so outnumbered

[lean arrow]

what does a productive discussion on it look like

[cinder wyvern]

No idea. Right now I'm between places, so it'd be easy for me to be hung up on "those people are wrong" and "one of them can't even cook". (Not meant as a call-out, sorry, but it primes how I go into the discussion).
I guess part of the issue is that neither side is willing to compromise (and I don't think people are wrong to not compromise) - and as far as arguing goes, I only know myself on this side of the argument, and I am incredibly bad at formulating my stance at least on this issue. I just like my namako, and kind of independently don't find kili namako as much fun

It's also... not the biggest issue. Leaving out namako from a public text is going to be waaaay easier than rewiring how I feel about the shapes or arguing this out.

[lean arrow]

I think the main thing is about font authors, right?

[little flower]

i also prefer the non-kili namako glyph
just looks more appealing to me, and it shows its relation to sin

[lean arrow]

I thought the discussion was primarily about what to make the default for fonts

[little flower]

but i have no strong logical argument i've fleshed out, i just prefer the vibes of the + shaped one

[cinder wyvern]

Oh
Yeah I guess that shifts the focus significantly

Thoughts in that frame:

1. It's going to be more work to type out the alt shape, annoying one side more than the other
2. it makes the alt shape a more... hidden feature
   1a&2a) this can also influence how popular a shape is, which I don't care about
3. alts are (at least regarded as) optional for fontmakers, limiting the fonts that support a preferred shape

[lean arrow]

I don't think anyone is saying fonts should not include the alts for it

more the question of what the "main" one is

[cinder wyvern]

I know

Point 3) is about the consequence that some fonts are going to have the main one, and when fonts are unfinished or abandoned or just meant to be a small project, some of them won't have the other one

I think it makes sense to make the main one the one that most namako users use
And that's the kili one

[neon bobcat]

ma bona bi dogi bona

[lean arrow]

Is this the latest btw? It's the latest in pins

[rough drum]

yes

you can also find it on my website

[lean arrow]

pona

In exchange I give you this

https://i.imgflip.com/7ktcod.jpg

it does get flipped from time to time

[lean arrow]

btw I wanted to mention that stacking with nimi seems not great:

[lean arrow]

I think for nimi it makes most sense to shift it so that it's below the midline and the other glyph on/above the midline

[rough drum]

yes i prolly forgot to do it correctly

[lean arrow]

another low-priority request: te/to quotes nest around the words inside a bit like pi extension. Not extending the line, just placing them so the thing after te is "inside" the corner etc

just making them more quote-y. I think linja sike did that

[cinder wyvern]

I think I remember somone from kulupu kasi recommending against that
but maybe as an alt?

[lean arrow]

in that case, maybe manually using te+nimi and nimi+to?

and ucsur la using pi extension mark

[lean arrow]

oof

[rough drum]

i don’t like that

too cramped

[boreal verge]

that's a funky mi

[tepid leaf]

yeah crampedness is the main problem

[lean arrow]

linja sike's version of it is too cramped, I think

but I don't see why it has to be as a rule

¯_(ツ)_/¯

I am willing to offer bribery for some level of support even if it's via + 😛

[tepid leaf]

if you look at the origin (jp quotes), they don't go into the space of the adjacent glyphs
日「日日」日
big spacing is kinda the point

[rough drum]

one of the boons of strict monospacing is that glyphs line up vertically, not just horizontally

this is something I value a LOT for legibility

[lean arrow]

That level of nesting is fine, I'd like that

[lean arrow]

Hmm ok. I don't have as much experience reading long texts with that spacing I guess

Unless you count code lol

[lean arrow]

But compare for example:

[lean arrow]

It looks like maybe the cjk ones are taking the full block width but they are biased to the side instead of being centered? And drawn not as wide

If it looked like jan Susi's example that would still be pona

I should test what the cjk ones look like next to sp

[lapis loom]

I think they are fine

Maybe a little thinner but otherwise good

While still being monospaced, of course

[loud jetty]

te and to are weird

they're technically nimisin with defined grammar, but people just use them as quotation marks

but people don't use normal quotation marks, just the weird nimisin

[cinder wyvern]

what do you mean by "normal" quotation marks?

[loud jetty]

quotation marks encoded as such in Unicode

[cinder wyvern]

These?「」『』
They're not as easy to reach with the keyboard I have

[loud jetty]

it's like the punctuation equivalent of epiku

[cinder wyvern]

and in fonts, they don't tend to align well with sitelen pona

[loud jetty]

i mean like font makers don't implement "«»„“”

so people who use sitelen pona use the obscure nimisin instead, with the wrong grammar

as quotation marks

[lean arrow]

That's the only reason I do it that way too

[cinder wyvern]

wrong grammar? 😄
I reject te and to in my nasin
they are quotation marks
speaking them out loud is never an option

[loud jetty]

hmmmm

nasa

when your text is read with a screen reader, they're pronounced

same with someone reading your text out loud

[native trench]

do people still do stuff like “mi toki te sina pona”

without the to

[cinder wyvern]

some probably do

[cinder wyvern]

same issue with "zz" I assume, then?

[lean arrow]

mi sama

[loud jetty]

yes

[cinder wyvern]

ok, that sucks

[native trench]

i feel like using quotes doesnt inherently count as te to unless you use them as te to
if you only use te to to type quotes then thats not actually using te to

[lean arrow]

I mean spoken te to as quotation marks isn't too bad for screen readers I think

Idk though, I don't use one

Zz sucks though

[lapis loom]

Screen readers wouldn’t read toki pona properly anyway tho

[lean arrow]

at some point it'll be easy to get a voice pack that works well for it

Not today

Unfortunately

[loud jetty]

i agree with this and i don't like it. it's like using seme as a question mark

[cinder wyvern]

for bot commands, they do
at least I think that's what waso Keli is referring to

[loud jetty]

bot commands and documents using ligature fonts

[lapis loom]

But not properly

[loud jetty]

toki pona's phonology is simple enough that it works well

with several screen reader languages

[native trench]

i wish the te to glyphs were different
i dont like using 「」 for them because te to don’t have to be matched but unmatched quotes feels blegh

i think // and \\ were glyphs for them in one font

[loud jetty]

who came up with the Japanese style te to glyphs?

[native trench]

mi sona ala

[cinder wyvern]

I should make changes to nishiki teki lili and nasin nanpa asuki

[loud jetty]

i like this

[cinder wyvern]

I mean, making more options available is always good
but I deleted everything non-sp from nishiki teki lili, so re-introducing kagikakko should be easy enough

[loud jetty]

@chrome agate sina la sitelen seme li pona tawa nimi te tawa nimi to

[chrome agate]

i tend to do these『』

[loud jetty]

oooh

[rose kayak]

Reminder for @cinder wyvern

Reminder from YAGPDB

quotation marks

[cinder wyvern]

oh right

[lean arrow]

how do I do pi extension beyond one glyph like "pi-nimi"

[rough drum]

pi(nimi jan)

@lean arrow

[lean arrow]

aaa

pona

[lean arrow]

do we want a name glyph ligature for "Linku"

[rough drum]

yea

[static shuttle]

(Toki! I'm new here) Is there already a mute-mute character? Two mute stacked one on top of the other, same size?

[cinder wyvern]

kind of

You can try it yourself, go to #jaki select linja lipamanka as a font with /preferences and type in mute-mute for stacked and mute+mute for scaled combination

[split kernel]

for when there are many muches

[static shuttle]

I was interested in for example if I wanted to say mute mute mute mute, seeing them grouped in pairs would be easier to parse than twelve parallel lines

[rough drum]

the way it’s designed is such that you can parse them in groups of theee

but nonetheless i don’t see people saying “mute mute mute” a lot

[pearl portal]

mi toki mute e mute mute

[rough drum]

i can’t parse this, not because it looks like twelve parallel lines, but because i can’t tell what it means

[feral wind]

i think it translates to "i have 99 problems and this is one"

[rough drum]

ahhh

i would consider that a calque

[distant maple]

numbers in sitelen pona look pretty rough

i saw on reddit i think someone's nasin sitelen for distinguishing wan tu and mute better. they just added the flag from wan to the leftmost line in tu and mute

[toxic folio]

but adding a flag to the leftmost line in mute makes it look like wan tu

[distant maple]

good point! i forget exactly why but I don't think it was a problem. i'll have to find the post

[dusk imp]

sp numbers are further proof that counting big just ain't for tp

[static shuttle]

counting big ain't for tp, it seems

[junior wolf]

could we get the font onto google fonts?

[lapis loom]

probably not, at least not in it's current state

yeah there's a lot of burrocracy involved with adding a new font to google fonts

[lean arrow]

would they accept a font that is for stuff in the unicode PUA in the first place?

[lapis loom]

I can't find anything against it so far

it at least needs ascii and latin supplement A and B i believe

[distant maple]

burrocracy go burrrr

[lapis loom]

yes because it's an ass

[distant maple]

*clicks tongue and points*

[junior wolf]

then it gets added to google docs (or at least can be via a add-on)

[rough drum]

i’d be cool with my font getting added to google fonts

or at least a version of it

[lapis loom]

but google made the .zip top level domain :(

[lapis loom]

actually i don't think an sp font should go on google fonts

if there was a ligaturizing font on google fonts, then most people wouldn't use it

because people who don't speak toki pona would get frustrated when their words turn into symbols when they don't want it to

and you can't insert pua characters into google docs using the insert special characters

[sturdy marlin]

lipu suli li lon li toki e nasin https://googlefonts.github.io/gf-guide/

sina ken wile pana la o lukin e ale

pilin mi la ken li lon

[static shuttle]

Is there a way to type a 。, an open circle style interpunct with the /sp command?

[pearl portal]

not with linja lipamanka because there's no fallback font
fairfax and nishiki-teki are more generalist so they should work

[cinder wyvern]

Hm, I could build that back into nishiki teki lili

[junior wolf]

no, but like thats not how you type any language

you use a keyboed made for the languige

[oak lagoon]

chat moment :3

anyway asuwi just makes me think of a "cute blue" which. idk what blue is Cutest but.

XD

[rough drum]

idk having a word for blue the first thought in my head is immediately “why tho”

laso is already very blue

[oak lagoon]

primary color™️

laso is Green tho

[rough drum]

laso is also blue

[oak lagoon]

hold on lemme

[rough drum]

toki pona just draws the lines differently

which is not only fine but also something you should let it affect you with

[oak lagoon]

like... ther'es so much extra color here

[rough drum]

laso just covers both of them

laso is just also blue

[oak lagoon]

also there's already nimisin for purple and orange so like. shrug jnhskfnh

i mean.... shrug

[rough drum]

i kinda get the one for purple, but i don’t like nalanja

like it’s right there in jelo and loje cmon

[oak lagoon]

it's like i kinda Understand but like... there's such a difference between blue and green that it'd make sense in a way to have one Specifically for Blue bc its like

sjnhkfsnh

[rough drum]

and just bc nimisin exist doesn’t mean they’re in use

[oak lagoon]

blue as an english word is also too vague for me sometmies but theres the word Cyan that separates it so

[rough drum]

nalanja is probably almost never used. i have seen unu used a lot more though

[oak lagoon]

yea it's just like. funny to me bc like

1 moment

[cinder wyvern]

a word for blue is only needed if you use peta

which... no one does

[rough drum]

even then laso in that context would be blue right

[cinder wyvern]

no idea

[oak lagoon]

i cant find my stylus and im AAA i wanna draw normally not with a mouse 😭 ill be a Few Moments
also to me, laso (as the way it is drawn/written/used) is similar to peta ("greenish/lively" kinda?) so like kjhnfkhsn

like. to me blue and green are entirely separate colors, there's very little overlap (maybe laso covers cyan but thats bc it's too green to be blue)

[rough drum]

in english they are separate colors. from a comparative linguistics perspective, this isn’t a person by person thing, rather a language by language thing. so this is really just your english bias for colors

[oak lagoon]

i mean, in a sense, yeah? but like...

even in the senses, i feel like green and blue are entirely different colors. especially because green and blue Literally have different cones in your eyes to percieve them as separate colors

at BEST i could see someone shifting the colors (red = lojo, green = jelo, blue = laso) but then that's just erasing jelo as yellow atp

[rough drum]

toki pona doesn’t want you to combine them into one color, but it does want to combine them into one word. in order to distinguish you have to use context, not a new word in the lexicon.

that’s the foundation of toki pona

[oak lagoon]

i mean Yeah, but at that point, why use color words at all?

why not one word for "color" and then everything's just compounded off of that

(so instead of lojo you write mouth color)

[rough drum]

if this is a “where do you draw the line” argument, the line was already drawn when the vocabulary in toki pona was created and adapted

[oak lagoon]

i mean in a sense it is, but like... shrug

[pearl portal]

i believe green was considered part of jelo back in the day

[rough drum]

toki pona has the color words it has for fun, but having more seems like too complex

[pearl portal]

tuki tiki

[rough drum]

really? i didn’t know that that’s cool

[oak lagoon]

i just want to add a separate color word because, as someone who uses blue a LOT and sees it as like... as different as jelo and lojo are, i think it's... not that big a deal someone wants to create a new word for it

and if someone doesnt wanna use it they dont have to :P

[oak lagoon]

also if so, that'd make sense kinda

[pearl portal]

near the bottom of http://pineight.com/tokipona/tpreview.html

Until mid-March 2002, a large chunk of <"jelo"> (namely the lime-greens) was allocated to <"laso">.

[oak lagoon]

i do think some "greens" are more jelo so

altho thats like...

gestures at some Ripe Apples and such

[pearl portal]

and it says lime-green but the entirety of what i'd call green on the hue circle shown is in the jelo region

[rough drum]

i mean toki pona already had a word for blue

[oak lagoon]

oh yeah hold on lemme post that image here

[pearl portal]

yeah it's ijo

[oak lagoon]

laso here is just blue (including cyan and indigo blue)

[rough drum]

i don’t wanna be a scratched CD here but fundamentally, it’s the same justification for why there shouldn’t be a word for cat

[oak lagoon]

WH

[rough drum]

we already have sowlei

[oak lagoon]

apparently copy pasting didnt work 😭

[pearl portal]

yeah transparent images do that

[oak lagoon]

i mean in a sense yeah but in our brain we associate with cats / small soweli so like... in a sense there is a "separate" toki pona word (even if it's "incorrect" usage to the actual definition)

that or suwi soweli

but thats also different because we already have large categories that actually feel like they cover all the animal groups (soweli waso and kala)

oh my gosh wait. kijete kinda looks like a combination of soweli and suwi already..... entirely random but-

anyway i'd still appreciate a glyph for asulo regardless because like... we've used it in writing tokipona IRL so 🤷

[rough drum]

idk that just sounds like taking conceptualizations you got from english and importing them into toki pona

[oak lagoon]

i mean kinda?

[rough drum]

i’ll add the glyph but i will also give my two cents on ur nimisin

[oak lagoon]

kijete (shortened kijetesantakalu) sounds very similar to "kitty" in our brain, and the sitelen pona glyph looks like a kitty so it is that reverse-association that wasn't intentional, but like... nkhnfjhn words hard XD

we'd still probably write suwi soweli if we referred to a cat half bc kijete is hard to write but shh

[lapis loom]

Why suwi first tho?

[dusk imp]

(modifiers follow the things they modify)

[oak lagoon]

brain forget grammar change / word order with adjectives in toki pona 😅

yee thank u for catching that XD

[rough drum]

it’s not just about the word sounding a certain way, it’s about the way languages make our brains categorize things together

[dusk imp]

\i rly don't recommend trying to fuck w tp this much while you're still struggling with modifier order t b h

[oak lagoon]

i mean, i get you but also asulo fun word make brain pilin pona

[rough drum]

and you’re kinda ignoring how toki pona categorizes things, and using the ways you already categorize things (based in english)

[oak lagoon]

i mean.... mostly only wanting to "change" the categories for colors, that's it. the other categories i get bc they make sense

[dusk imp]

\the colour categories make sense

\ur just not used to them and that's okay

[oak lagoon]

also like... i can't see the word for "plant color" meaning blue, bc blue isn't a plant color in my brain jnhkfh

[dusk imp]

\toki pona is a lot to get used to

[rough drum]

laso doesn’t mean plant color

it means blue and it means green

[dusk imp]

\ 🫐

[oak lagoon]

i mean... using the original sections seen above (with laso meaning blue and jelo meaning yellow and green) i can see that makes sense, but if people go 🍏 <- that's laso... like. kjhnfkhn

[rough drum]

sitelen pona is and has always been examples of a word’s semantic space, not something that encompasses the whole semantic space

[cinder wyvern]

The glyph for laso is based on kule+kasi - but that's just how sitelen pona often construct glyphs: as an example of what is a much broader range of things that it can encompass

yes

[oak lagoon]

the glyph is, in a sense, "plant + color", similar with jelo being sun colored and lojo loje being mouth colored so that's what i was referring to lol

[dusk imp]

see the messages above yours just now

(*loje)

[oak lagoon]

yeah i read them lol, i was just specifying regardless

oops-

[dusk imp]

look
i get that tp can feel weird while you're learning
"why make this distinction and not this one"
but getting you to think a little differently about how you view the world is like. kinda the point of the language?

[oak lagoon]

now im just thinking about that one study(? idr if it was a study-study but it was some kinda research) on language and color groupings, and i wanna see where others draw the line for toki pona colors because like... if its closer to the OG (jelo encompasing more greens with laso being more literally blue and cyan than green) that'd make sense to me more, but if it's different, i'd wanna see where people do draw the lines, and how similarly it'd be to my perception

[rough drum]

once again it isn’t how people draw lines, it’s about how languages draw lines

[oak lagoon]

shrug? kinda. like yeah but also like... idk

[rough drum]

you keep saying “shrug kinda idk”

[oak lagoon]

i mean this more as in "what counts as laso to you" because language is modified by how people use it / people's perceptions on the words

[oak lagoon]

yeah because words are hard and im kinda zoned out so i'm not sure what to write but i want to acknowledge to people i Am reading their sentences

[rough drum]

in this case it’s less influenced by unbiased speakers and more influenced by english bias, which is what we’re calling out

[dusk imp]

this is my laso, with jelo probs being a bit smaller on the loje side

[rough drum]

descriptivism must take into account biases, not ignore them

[oak lagoon]

jelo being less than that?-

[rough drum]

english biases exist and must be described

[dusk imp]

kala Asi did this poll, laso fully is blue and green to most users

[oak lagoon]

was it just a poll or was it like. "circle the color ranges" which is what the study im thinking about did

[lapis loom]

There is not really a line in general tbh

The borders are really soft

[rough drum]

i think that assuming all languages view colors as subdivisions of a color wheel is misguided. they do not.

[oak lagoon]

....is. is that not how people think of colors?

[cinder wyvern]

from what I know:
There are different languages that take different paths - and while there are some interesting trends, there is also some fuzziness to it.
After Berlin&Kay tried to come up with a model, revised versions, that show different languages at around the same stage as where toki pona would be in terms of how many colours get grouped together in one term, show at least 3 different variations of type IV

[oak lagoon]

🧍 am i having an autism moment

[rough drum]

it’s how most anglophones and europeans think of colors

[oak lagoon]

wait then how else do you think of them?

[rough drum]

it’s not about people, it’s about languages

[dusk imp]

it was thefull range of colour emojis with a different poll for "choose which ones are laso/loje/jelo/unu"

[oak lagoon]

link please i want to see

[lapis loom]

Colors should not be thought of as subdivisions of the color wheel

[dusk imp]

i tried to find it and failed

bad at search

[rough drum]

“i can’t think of a different way to see the world” doesn’t mean that “my way of seeing the world is the only right one”

and if you want specific examples i recommend nikari speardane’s video about colors

i think that’s her name

[oak lagoon]

im trying to think of how else one could see colors

[oak lagoon]

also yes please !!

[rough drum]

go ahead it’s on youtube

[oak lagoon]

" Nakari Speardane " is who showed up

why is that spaced out

[rough drum]

yes

[lapis loom]

Colors can change depending on so many factors. The color wheel is so isolated it doesn’t take in anything from the environment

[dusk imp]

but yeah this comes back to the "Let tp change how you view the world before trying to change tp" point

[oak lagoon]

im still watching the video so ill respond to yall in a but but i just wanna share how pretty this color selector thingy is. thats all

[rough drum]

colors in language didn’t evolve to divide colors in color space. they evolved to categorize objects together based on the similarities in color. most likely this became a thing in language so that we could conceptually tell berries apart that looked similar but were different colors, and similar things, but we don’t actually know. the color spectrum itself in culture is a recent construction following isaac newton’s discovery of the visible light spectrum

[dusk imp]

shakes a stick at newton

dead white men ruining shit for everyone as usual

[rough drum]

language and cognition aren’t really separate when it comes to the categories we put stuff in

[lapis loom]

For example: brown. Brown seems so concrete and distinct from so many colors, but it’s really just dark orange. Against a white background it looks brown but against a black background it turns orange.

[rough drum]

yeah he also added indigo to the color wheel as the seventh color because he wanted there to be one color for every note in the major scale, and it’s still like that

[rough drum]

white background white background moment

[oak lagoon]

brown to me is a black-yellow

anyway-

[dusk imp]

i'm not sure i agree here?

[little flower]

wasn't it (also?) cause 7 is a holy number, so there being 7 colors would show the perfection of gods creation or whatever

[lapis loom]

I hate indigo as a concept 6 is such a nice number for amount of hues

[dusk imp]

culture very much affects how we categorise things
not sure i would say that it's all how our brains do

[oak lagoon]

ive never really understood indigo, like yeah its a distinct color like turquoise or pink or something, but like... it can be better simply described as purple or blue, especially on context

also language is part of culture, is it not?

[severe sierra]

this video seems kinda relevant here https://youtu.be/gMqZR3pqMjg

[rough drum]

i’m definitely oversimplifying it. there are many parts of cognition that aren’t impacted by language. but people who have vocabulary for 14 types of horses vs me who has only a handful of words from my little pony have very different cognitive categories for horses. and yes, that is impacted by culture, but not in a way that’s separate from language.

but like “spanish speakers think of bridges as masculine” is like, not really empirically comparable and not cognitive

[oak lagoon]

yeah that's culture impacting language impacting categories

[oak lagoon]

thats cause 'masculine" isn't seen as a Gender Thing evne tho linguistically it's called "gender", im 99 sure

[lapis loom]

No that is definitely not true

[cinder wyvern]

there are many different directions it can go
even in English, you can have a warm-hot spectrum of colours from red to glowing yellow to white, and even that is going to be different in-context
And it's separate from another spectrum where colours can influence our perception of distance/depth
I think there are some languages that do it more like fresh/alive vs dry/dead colours - but that might be more of an after-the-fact abstraction just like the other examples and I wouldn't be surprised if those also shifted by context

[rough drum]

masculine gender is masculine because it’s used to describe people and things that have societal gender that matches up with the noun classes

[severe sierra]

but also
as someone coming from the background of having both "blue" and "green" I obviously can distinct them
but
as far as I know grouping "green" and "blue" together is common in many culrures? I'm pretty sure that's a reason why Japanese green traffic lights are blueish

so, knowing that, I think grouping blue+green makes sense imo

[rough drum]

like you use the masculine 3rd person pronoun for masculine words, and also masculine people

[lapis loom]

There was a Tom Scott video on it

[cinder wyvern]

I can distinguish dark blue from light blue
but my language doesn't distinguish the 2 on a root level

[oak lagoon]

i mean, aren't those just different "spectrums" of color descriptions? of course the hue-focused color wheel spectrum isn't universal but

[oak lagoon]

english?

[lapis loom]

Why is spectrum different from color

[cinder wyvern]

no
I should have said my languages

[oak lagoon]

nods

[lapis loom]

Green is a spectrum

[rough drum]

yes. english and german both treat light blue and dark blue as a subset of “blue,” right?

[oak lagoon]

i was gonna mention cyan, since that's a word i see as distinct from blue in english that covers some colors that would otherwise be called "light blue" but shrug

[cinder wyvern]

I tried giving you other frames/models of how to think about colours as a broader structure (after the fact), because it seemed like that's what you were asking about

[cinder wyvern]

yep, and French

[oak lagoon]

tbh not sure, think its just bc i am aware of other spectrums of things ad so i add that word on lol

[rough drum]

i always thought of cyan as a subset of blue

but! i never really conceptualized pink as a subset of red

[lapis loom]

It is in English

[oak lagoon]

yeah, i understand (and appreciate it)

[rough drum]

cyan is a bit more obscure than pink

[lapis loom]

Cyan is

[oak lagoon]

i mean... it is but also cyan feels like a Distinct color to me, that's way different than most blues

but also it depends on like... the situation

like if im doing art for someone, knowing they want more cyan than navy-blue / dark blue, like... that's important. but if ur just describing the sky, blue works (even if it's more cyan sometimes)

this color wheel feels so wrong something feels so. Off about it 😭

[lapis loom]

This is why subdivision of the color wheel isn’t the best way to divide colors

[severe sierra]

time to bring this meme back? xD

#learn-toki-pona-1 message

[oak lagoon]

also in a sense i agree and also disagree
to define color terms in a general sense (as in, describing the colors as nouns themselves), i think the color wheel is good for describing the literal basics, but acknowledging room for overlap and specific colors in relation to situations (ie, things like what it's referring to or the qualities that item has) is important too (like the video "different ways to develop colour" explains with things like horse colors and metalics)

[oak lagoon]

XD i mean-

i am gonna Observe that channel for a bit tho theres more pictures so-

[lapis loom]

The color wheel is built for artists, not for the average person tbh

[dusk imp]

languages like irish have colours distinguished not just by hue, but by things like saturation and "naturalness"
(it has 3 levels of grue depending on how you look at them)

so no even at a "basic" level the colour wheel breaks down

[oak lagoon]

this image made me cackle for some reason XD

[oak lagoon]

unfortunately i am an artist 😔

[severe sierra]

reject kule, only walo from now on

[lapis loom]

So am I

[oak lagoon]

to be fair i also. dont usually draw in color traditionally, since the pencils i have are. kjfdnhkjsh i need better ones. so all of my drawings are walo and pimeja 😭

thats unerlated but yeah

[oak lagoon]

also nods. me fr KJNEKDSN

[dusk imp]

. bc it got buried by big picture

[severe sierra]

oh no how could I say this during pride month D:

but also, companies on July 1st:

[lapis loom]

This has some implications—

[oak lagoon]

responding to this now oops XD
anyway, in a sense yeah but also the distinguishing traits are just another layer of the color spectrum, so it'd be similar to dark/light/pastel/silvery "sections", at least i'd presume

well.

"naturalness" isn't really on a literal spectrum like hue and saturation but like. in my brain they'd be categorized similar??

i dont know how to explain that well 🧍

[unique lodge]

colors and isaac newton la when I look at a rainbow I see:
red
orange
yellow
lime
green
cyan
blue
violet

[dusk imp]

uaine is distinguished from glas by how it's used for artificial colours more often than not, i don't see how that can fit on the colour wheel

[oak lagoon]

id say same but i dont usually think of specific color sections when i look at a literal rainbow, it feels like its own "color" (like kule kinda)

[dusk imp]

(also glas/gorm are used for blue and green just to fuck with u specifically a a a)

[dusk imp]

. as in they're both used for both, distinguished by darkness rather than hue

[oak lagoon]

i mean, on a literal color wheel, no it wouldnt fit, but like... in a "my brain's representation of colors" color spectrum, it'd feel like a different section i think

it's. very hard to describe mental concepts like that tho 😭

like in my brain it's almost a physical thing

[unique lodge]

It feels important here to distinguish violet purple and magenta

[lapis loom]

I mean colors don’t really exist? Like yes the wavelengths of light are there and different but colors are all just a pigment of huemans imagination

[oak lagoon]

"here" as in?

[unique lodge]

Violet is the end of the color spectrum, magenta is the compound color of red and blue/violet, and purple is a color term for violent and dark magenta

[oak lagoon]

i mean Yeah- xD

[oak lagoon]

well yeah they are separate colors lol

not sure what to say to that but yeah

[lapis loom]

Magenta is a pink to me

Actually it’s the other way around

[oak lagoon]

magenta is such a funky color.... like...

gestures. its both pink and purple and red but all at once

[severe sierra]

what if

[oak lagoon]

mmm i'd rotate it a bit but a a a

[lapis loom]

Very English

[oak lagoon]

yea

[lapis loom]

It’s just warm and cool

[oak lagoon]

.........wait thats just warm vs cold colors

JNDSKHN

[lapis loom]

Also jelo is not that small :/

[unique lodge]

Violet can also be a shade of purple

[unique lodge]

Magenta and hot pink are synonyms

[oak lagoon]

i disagree but they're so so very close that they're basically synonyms in the way blue and cyan can be

[unique lodge]

Hot pink (magenta) vs light pink (desaturated red)

[oak lagoon]

hot pink is more red than purple so

this is magenta

[unique lodge]

That’s fair

[oak lagoon]

this is hot pink

[unique lodge]

Tawa mi, the second one is the same hue

[lapis loom]

Not really?

[unique lodge]

Different shades for sure

Same hue

[lapis loom]

That’s raspberry

[oak lagoon]

its slightly more red in hue but like. gestures

in toki pona they're both loje to me

so

[dusk imp]

lol this is how i used them for like 2 years

[lapis loom]

But like an average person would not distinguish between purple and violet and often even indigo

The distinction between them is unimportant in a large majority of situations

[oak lagoon]

got curious and was thinking about how color blindness might affect the general "ranges" of the toki pona colors

not really sire what this would even mean but like. idk sections of color but with different color blindness spectrum example thingies

having so many color thoughts its making me want to do art 😭

[oak lagoon]

words hard brain is jaki but. if one is using only loje laso and jelo im going to try and assume more like this because. brain needs categories and to sort things, and this makes more sense than laso being all greens AND all blues. jelo gets some greens now

final words on this cause. brain wants to wrap up my thoughts

so 👍

[dusk imp]

these aren't the ranges of toki pona colours :p

like i get that you're struggling with tp's categorisation but just. ignoring that they're like that isn't gonna get you used to them lol

[oak lagoon]

i was more going off the sections in the picture i replied to a post ago (with jelo being more yellow and green and laso being more blue and slightly cyan/green) with the drawn lines there, but more analyzing how the sections roughly would change if you're colorblind

likesomeone with protanopia might not understand why people would distinguish between loje and jelo (as they'd be similar), or may have different ways of describing that difference

i say might in italics there because im not colorblind and therefore wouldn't know how people who are experience and label toki pona color words

[dusk imp]

i should clarify this applies to the 👍 messages too, not just the colourblindness thing

[oak lagoon]

ah, nods nods

still, my thoughts are mostly the same

[icy jolt]

well i mean that’s bc you don’t really have separate cones for blue
it’s just “intensity of light that isn’t any of the cones and is within the visual range

[icy jolt]

toki pona is minimalist, not minimal.

[icy jolt]

nnnn i disagree.. laso covers most greens, it is just a wider category on the color wheel than the other colors. that happens a lot in language, people talk about colors before they understand how they work

[hidden shoal]

can i type akesi2 or something like that to get 4-legged alt?

[rough drum]

akesi1 i think?

maybe not though

[icy jolt]

not on linku

[lapis loom]

Pop

Oop

[lapis loom]

:(

[lean arrow]

It depends on the font

[distant maple]

thinking about multi-word names, and i’m thinking that two monospaced brackets that go in between the two words would sure takes a lot of space. so, idea: a single glyph with close and open brackets kissing

like, a ][ glyph to compliment the [ glyph and the ] glyph

[pearl portal]

personally i like the idea of making brackets half-width, since they always come in pairs so alignment will be kept

[distant maple]

100% viable tawa mi

may help names stand out too, if they’re off-grid from normal text

but then so does the half-width space on either side of the cartouche

idk m9

[tepid leaf]

the problem is then that names are always out of alignment, which breaks reading flow

[any] Kita ⥀·⫞· ↩️

[Reply to:](#1053850152932233266 message) personally i like the idea of making brackets half-width, since they always come in pairs so alignme…

[distant maple]

ken a

either way double spaced name separator o weka

(lon sona lili mi) 🥺

[rough drum]

yeah exactly

[loud jetty]

i like the double bracket idea, but that would make the cartouche cramped next to the double bracket

so in waso [kasi esun lete ilo][mu utala],
there would be less space next to "ilo" than "kasi"

[distant maple]

there would? i thought the vertical line was dead center

[loud jetty]

oh you mean the cartouches would share a line

hm that could be cute

i wasn't expecting to like this but i like this

[rough drum]

hmm actually it COULF work

the only problem is that i would need to make…. two entire new sets of glyphs for this to work properly

[loud jetty]

oh dear

cartouche open and cartouche close are both entire sets of glyphs?

[rough drum]

they would have to be for this to work

as it stands theyre their own monospaced glyphs and i like the eaybtgat looks

[tepid leaf]

you'd only have to make one special ][ glyph innit?

[rough drum]

wouldn't look like this though

but theoredically possible to do that instead

[cinder wyvern]

it wouldn't?

[rough drum]

hmmmm

idk I'm like distracted

I will do this though I like it

it'll be []

opposte

[distant maple]

ok to be completely honest

thinking about multi-word names jan Ke Tami's name

[cinder wyvern]

I'm dealing fine with a gap

[distant maple]

lol

[icy jolt]

there’s also kekan san as another Active Person In The Community with a multi word name

[loud jetty]

those are the two example people i thought of, too

[broken lava]

:D

i love nimi nasa

[lean arrow]

a a

ona li nimi pona

[icy jolt]

hell yeah

i love nasa

if it’s unusual, deviant, kinda fucked up, or just plain silly

[gray locust]

hehe

akesi

[lean arrow]

how do I make cartouches be closed properly?

I tried using various combinations of _ in the [] bits

but couldn't figure it out

[cinder wyvern]

No underscore
Only words
But it won't work with capital letters

[lean arrow]

OH

inconvenient

[indigo flicker]

Not yet, Ferb

[hidden shoal]

toki

[hidden shoal]

how do i draw misa?

[cinder wyvern]

it's not in linja lipamanka yet

[hidden shoal]

ohh i have to use a previous font

[cinder wyvern]

misa is currently in the following fonts:

linja pi pu lukin
linja luka
sitelen seli kiwen
Fairfax HD
linja sike 5
linja pi tomo lipu
linja suwi
linja ante
Fairfax
sitelen Kotopon
leko majuna

[hidden shoal]

i drew a left-facing misa at https://artfight.net/attack/4328510.misa-meli-weni

sina pona! i needed to see an interpretation of misa

[toxic folio]

its in linja pi pu lukin

oh i read is as isn't 🤦

[cinder wyvern]

That'd be a longer list

[sturdy marlin]

i think its not in this font yet because it's fallen out of use a bit

[toxic folio]

is #1072230753221488741 still accepting submissions?

[rough drum]

yep!

gonna get started on it again

[bold inlet]

Is there documentation on all the font features anywhere

Have tried to figure out how to invoke the alt glyphs on sona.pona.la, if there are any

[cinder wyvern]

jaki2 jaki3 jaki4 jaki7

Not all glyphs that usually have alts have alts yet

[bold inlet]

😔** **

well, more CSS transform it is

[cinder wyvern]

What do you have in mind?

[bold inlet]

Most everything under https://sona.pona.la/wiki/sitelen_pona#Flexible_glyphs

I get if some of these are purposeful omissions but it's a bit inconvenient for documentary purposes regardless

[cinder wyvern]

ni>v ni> ni>^ ni^ ni<^ ni< ni<v

ko and jaki: add numbers after

I don't know of any font that does alternates on the basis of rotation

mirroring happens more between fonts than within fonts
ignoring directional glyphs or symmetrical counterparts

2-line akesi is in several fonts now, but not in linja lipamanka yet

ku doesn't have alts in linja lipamanka

[knotty widget]

apparently linjamanka doesn't support linluwi

[misty lantern]

Set font preference for letter W to linja lipamanka.

[knotty widget]

kin la, is there a way to make extended lon in the font? i.e.

[cinder wyvern]

no

[lean arrow]

I'm pretty sure those extensions won't be supported

[icy jolt]

if they were to be it certainly wouldn’t be high priority

but anyways lipamanka is not in this server at least for now and also i think they’re taking a break from linjamanka

[spice bane]

So, basically if I make the same request twice, my glyph will be included?

[lean arrow]

☝️

[spice bane]

Where is it then?

[lean arrow]

lon ala

they're taking a break

[spice bane]

a

Oh well

thx

[knotty widget]

add tabby

[icy jolt]

lipamanka isn’t in this server right now

[native trench]

@stone moss

[stone moss]

shut

[orchid pagoda]

Hello! Can I be in linja lipamanka too please? I use that font for my tp journal and tp drawings and I have it as a default in the /sp command

[bold inlet]

lipamanka li weka

[split kernel]

lipu pi manka ala 😔

[orchid pagoda]

oke

[loud jetty]

linja lipamanka is accepting glyph submissions again! <@&1085722895445147688>

https://lipamanka.gay/linjamanka-submission-form
Here is my linja lipamanka glyph submission form! Please share it everywhere! Tell all your friends! I want people to have their name glyphs in my font!