LIPAMANKA PI FONT ALA

[floral crescent]

WAIT I CAN'T

some of them have LEXICALIZED UNRELATED MEANINGS AS DIFFERENT PARTS OF SPEECH

whatever

we'll see what we can do

[young moat]

like which

[floral crescent]

ale is defined seperately as an adjective and a noun

V>N>V
V alasa to hunt
N alasa something that is hunted (?) (does this work? does this mean that alasa has been reanalyzed as something?) OR the act of hunting (this one works... okay)
V alasa to use something hunted on (yeah this one doesn't work) OR to use the act of hunting on (this doesn't work either lol)
V>N>V doesn't work?

V>N>V
V kalama to make a sound
N sound (okay this one works and is also cool wow) OR the act of making a sound
V to use a sound on something (this one does not work) OR to use the act of making a sound on (this is nonsense)

V>N>V doesn't work

okay one more

V>A>N

V>A>N
V pali to make
A pali that makes, that is for making, that is related to making
N pali something that has the quality of making, something that has the quality of being for making, something that has the quality of being related to making
can pali mean "thing that is making?" no I don't think so. let's try one more to make sure.

V>A>N
V pana to give
A pana that gives, that is for giving, that is related to giving
N pana that which gives, that which is for giving, that which is related to giving
this one does not work.

V>A>N does not work

wait I only have one more left

then I'll HAVE to go to bed

V>A>V

V>A>V
V toki to talk
A toki that talks, that is for talking, that is related to talking
V toki to make something a thing that talks, to make something a thing that is for talking, to make something a thing that is related to talking
can "mi toki e lipu" mean "I make this book talk?" no.

V>A>V doesn't work

okay time to compile my three long results

N = noun

• N>A>N = N
• N>V>N = not allowed
  A = adjective
• A>N>A = related to something that has quality A
• A>V>A = that makes something A, that is for making something A, that is related to making something A
  V = verb
• V>N>V = not allowed
• V>A>V = not allowed

N>A = of N, related to N, has the qualities of N

• N>V>A = that uses N (on something), that applies N (to something)
  N>V = to use N on, to apply N to
• N>A>V = to make something related to N, to make something have the qualities of N
  A>N = something that has the quality of A
• A>V>N = A>N
  A>V = to make something have the quality of A
• A>N>V = to use something that has quality A on (something), to apply something of quality A to (something)
  V>N = something that V applies to OR the act of V
• V>A>N = not allowed
  V>A = that does V, that is for V, that is related to V
• V>N>A = V>A

final rules

to condence:
N = noun (that's it lol)
A = adjective, related to something of quality A, that makes something have quality A, that is for making something have quality A, that is related to making something have quality A
V = verb (that's it!)

N>A = related to N, has the qualities of N, that uses N on something, that applies N to something
N>V = to use N on, to apply N to, to make something related to N, to make something have the qualities of N
A>N = something of quality A
A>V = to make something have quality A, to use something that has quality A on (something), to apply something of quality A to (something)
V>N = something that V applies to OR the act of V
V>A = that does V, that is for V, that is related to V

one example for each part of speech:

TENPO
noun: time (+duration, moment, occasion, period, situation)
adjective: related to time, having the qualities of time, that uses time on something, that applies time to something
verb: to use time on, to apply time to, to make something related to time, to make something have the qualities of time

PONA
noun: something good
adjective: good, related to something good, that makes something good, that is for making things good, that is related to making things good
verb: to make something good, to use/apply something good on/to something

OLIN
noun: something that is loved OR the act of loving
adjective: that loves, that is for loving, that is related to love
verb: to love

finding and using these, I also found some examples that didn't work as well. I'm planning on exploring why they don't work as well tomorrow. I suspect it might be because of semantic drift or that their base part of speech has changed

I also have to do the four longs tomorrow

[modest remnant]

🙉 o kalama ala e mi

[modest remnant]

mi toki e waso 🦜

waso ni li kama waso toki

[floral crescent]

crossed out are the ones that DO NOT work
N>A>N>A
N>A>N>V
N>A>V>N
N>A>V>A
N>V>N>A
N>V>N>V
N>V>A>N
N>V>A>V
A>N>A>N
A>N>A>V
A>N>V>N
A>N>V>A
A>V>N>A
A>V>N>V
A>V>A>N
A>V>A>V
V>N>A>N
V>N>A>V
V>N>V>N
V>N>V>A
V>A>N>A
V>A>N>V
V>A>V>N
V>A>V>A

so tomorrow I have to do
N>A>V>A
N>V>A>V
A>N>A>V
A>N>V>A
V>N>A>V
V>N>V>A
V>A>V>A
and then I will (maybe?) be done!

if not and some of them work, I will have to test a handful of five longs!

but the number I have to test will continue to go down, because for each one that passes there are only two new ones I need to check after. and lukin la most of them have deminishing returns

diminishing

so

I'm gonna resist my urge to stay up and keep doing this bc I gotta get up in nine hours so GOOD NIGHT

tonight was great

---

FINAL RESULTS

N = noun (that's it lol)
A = adjective, related to something of quality A, that makes something have quality A, that is for making something have quality A, that is related to making something have quality A (an adjective is a lot more than just its core meaning, it turns out)
V = verb (that's it! verbs are just verbs)

N>A = related to N, has the qualities of N, that uses N on something, that applies N to something
N>V = to use N on, to apply N to, to make something related to N, to make something have the qualities of N
A>N = something of quality A
A>V = to make something have quality A, to use something that has quality A on (something), to apply something of quality A to (something)
V>N = something that V applies to OR the act of V
V>A = that does V, that is for V, that is related to V

one example for each part of speech:

TENPO
noun: time (+duration, moment, occasion, period, situation)
adjective: related to time, having the qualities of time, that uses time on something, that applies time to something
verb: to use time on, to apply time to, to make something related to time, to make something have the qualities of time

PONA
noun: something good
adjective: good, related to something good, that makes something good, that is for making things good, that is related to making things good
verb: to make something good, to use/apply something good on/to something

OLIN
noun: something that is loved OR the act of loving
adjective: that loves, that is for loving, that is related to love
verb: to love

see above for proofs

I will. eventually type this all out and include proofs

now if i really want to prove everything, i would need to do it for every word (which is possible but. hhhh) (or i could get a computer to do it for me)

i will also try to design my polls from now on to collect data to verify how accurate this is

bc you can do a lot of logic and then the word just isn’t really used like that

but there are ingrained rules in the language and we can find them and use them to help teach

@jagged osprey question: do you remember if you had any of this in mind when you were making pu or the lexicon?

[lime knot]

holy hell

my brain is sort of kind of exploding reading all of this but very interesting stuff

[urban fractal]

that would mean that people understand “mi lape e ijo” as “i sleep”

[urban fractal]

hm
verbs can be defined as something with two arguments, corresponding to the subject and object
adjectives can be defines as something with one argument, corresponding to the head (if modifier) or subject (if predicate)
nouns have zero arguments

maybe?

[floral crescent]

yeah i just gotta figure out what’s going on with lape

[urban fractal]

lape is an adjective

as with awen and pu and a few others that translate as “verbs”

[floral crescent]

yeah that’s what i notice

the adjectives in english they all mean are gerunds in english

oh also i didn’t use preverbs because they have different meanings

[floral crescent]

@urban fractal what’s the A>N for lape

[jagged osprey]

i tried to describe the patterns i saw in my usage

[floral crescent]

oh cool! that’s useful information

hm i’ve been thinking about lape

A>N is “that which has quality A” right

but this doesn’t work for all adjectives

A lili small
N lili thing that is small i.e. a small thing

A lape resting
N that which is resting i.e. resting thing

A sewi holy
N sewi that which is holy i.e. god

A anpa lowly
N anpa that which is lowly i.e. space below something, thing below something

A ante different
N ante thing that is different i.e. other thing, something else

A ala not
N ala that which is not i.e. nothingness

A ike bad
N ike that which is bad (badness)

A jaki (basically the same as above)

A jelo yellow
N jelo that which is yellow (yellowness, the color yellow)

which of these are true

some of them are definitely true and others are up for debate

it seems like all preverbs are adjectives

oh except lukin

wile isn’t written in as anything except preverb

[urban fractal]

“the act of sleeping” or (though this seems rare) “that which is sleeping”

[floral crescent]

that doesn’t fit the pattern though

i agree that’s how it’s used

but it doesn’t fit in with the A>N patter

n

unless that comes from a four long derivation?

like loje isn’t “the act of being red” as a noun is it

[urban fractal]

these two are the two patterns

[urban fractal]

it can be
“loje tomo li pona” can be “that the house is red is good”

i think “action of V” and “quality of ADJ” are effectively the same thing

(maybe)

gtg

[floral crescent]

pu doesn’t have “the act of being A” for A>N

[floral crescent]

i think this is true for loje

but i want to explore more things yeah?

and lape for “sleeping thing” is not used, i don’t think

[urban fractal]

i think generally the A > N “that which is X” pattern is allowed in pu but very rare in current usage

[undone crescent]

Hm, "that which is not" to me doesn't take the same path as "nothingness"
Maybe like "that which is resting" is not taking the same path as "restfulness"

That said there's a disconnect in how I see part of ala, where "not" fits into my pseudoparticle impression and is related but slightly separate from the content word

[urban fractal]

i see ala as (1) a modifier-like particle that negates what it comes after or (2) a content word meaning “non-existent”
this seems to be the second one, used as a noun

[floral crescent]

I don't think it's that rare

[floral crescent]

pu describes "that which is not (i.e. nothingness)" so

we're talking about that

what pu does

but yeah sewi and ala are used for god and void

[urban fractal]

according to the recent poll it seems rare

[floral crescent]

yeah for lape

not for like, most other adjectives

[urban fractal]

ken

[floral crescent]

yes I mean like

I would like to test out LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE ADJECTIVE

however

I am in PORUTUGESE CLASS

AULA DE PORTUGUES

so I cannot do that because I have ot be excited about portuguese

[brave rune]

I am so excited for when you finish discussing this and compile it into one place because I am not reading all that

[floral crescent]

@maiden light

[brave rune]

what does the > mean in this

[floral crescent]

becomes

[winged brook]

What I was saying is that it seems like some of the transformations lump two types of transformations into one - thus meaning you need to test out both hyptohesies and also meaning that its unclear which you used when doing the transformation.

I was trying to propose creating a different notation for them such that they did not clash like that.

e.g.

V-N (one type of transformation)
V~N (another type of transformation)

Yes this creates more complicated chains but might also illucidate others and suggest more cases where chains can be collapsed by being a bit clearer.

Also perhaps indicating what and how many steps were collapsed might produce some clear results.

Is there a list of the basic transformations anywhere? found it, copied it for my own use

@floral crescent ^

(feel free to answer this when not tired)

[floral crescent]

othank you for typing thsi

[urban fractal]

ive been using the notation of (lowercase letter to show derivation)(uppercase to show resulting PoS)

sN, qN, oN, uV, mV, vA, nA

[winged brook]

what does each mean

[winged brook]

reminder 🙂

[floral crescent]

thanks

u are being super adhd friendly

i appreciate this literally so much

[floral crescent]

i do actually test out each

[winged brook]

gimme a sec to long post

N>A (N-A, N~A, N:A, N;A)

N>V (N:V, N;V, N-V, N~V)

A>N (A~N)

A>V (A~V, A:V, A;V)

V>N (V;N, V^N)

V>A (V^A, V:A, V-A)

: use (utility transformation)
; apply (application transformation)

• relate (relational transformation)
  ~ quality (qualitative transformation)
  ^ reference (referential transformation)

Based on;

N>A = related to N, has the qualities of N, that uses N on something, that applies N to something
N>V = to use N on, to apply N to, to make something related to M, to make something have the qualities of N
A>N = something of quality A
A>V to make something have quality A, go use something that has quality A on something, to apply skmething of quality A to something
V>N = something that appleis to, the act of V
V>A = that does V, that is for V, that is related to the act of doing V

(reference (^)= the meaning stays pretty much the same but the technical case of the word alters, e.g. V^N (the act of V), V is still an action here it is just being reffered to as if it were a noun. so N refers to the act of V but as a noun)

this is intended to allow clarification of which transformation is taking place

@floral crescent ^

[floral crescent]

thank u i’ll read this when i switch back from font to book

[urban fractal]

“that which is X” like sewi for “divine being”
“quality or action of X” like pona for “goodness” or pali for “work” (undecided whether merging these two makes sense)
“that which is X’d” like moku for “food”
“use X on” like luka for “touch”
“make … be X” like tawa for “move (something)”
“is doing X” or “is being X’d” like lukin for “seen” or “seeing”
“of/related to X” like jan for “(something) belonging to someone”

[floral crescent]

those are not clear lol jan Seli you

you gotta write these things out

(i’m being lighthearted)

[urban fractal]

ough

[floral crescent]

if ur gonna be doing mathy things the priority is always gonna be “easy to understand what means what at a glance” no

[urban fractal]

sN(A) = S is definite S.X
qN(A, V) = S is existence of X
oN(V) = S is potential O.X
uV(N) = S uses X on O
mV(A) = S makes O be S.X
vA(V) = S is S.X / S is O.X
nA(N) = S is of S.X

i made it worse

(didnt have time to write a better explanation shdksks bye)

[floral crescent]

that’s fine! ur doing cool things

[jaunty seal]

yo lipamanka and Seli what's ur new conlang called?? looks sweet

[floral crescent]

it’s toki pona

[echo lion]

a a a

[leaden cradle]

lojban-lookin-ass analysis

[brave rune]

true

[urban fractal]

doing this literally made me interested in lojban again and i’ve been studying it a bit the past two days

[jagged osprey]

jgalu means claw?

[winged brook]

I'm trying to decode this but I am struggling

actually no I realise I figured it out

okay

so

sN(A) = S is definite S.X = A~N
qN(A, V) = S is existence of X = A^N & V^N
oN(V) = S is potential O.X = V;N
uV(N) = S uses X on O = N:V
mV(A) = S makes O be S.X = A~V
vA(V) = S is S.X / S is O.X = V^A
nA(N) = S is of S.X = N-A

interestingly, lipamanka identifies more transformations per category than you do, but you identify ones ona hasn't (e.g. A^N and V^N)

N>A = related to N (N-A), has the qualities of N (N~A), that uses N on something (N:A), that applies N to something (N;A)
N>V = to use N on (N:V), to apply N to (N;V), to make something related to M (N-V), to make something have the qualities of N (N~V)
A>N = something of quality A (A~N)
A>V to make something have quality A(A~V), go use something that has quality A on something (A:V), to apply something of quality A to something (A;V)
V>N = something that V applies to (V;N), the act of V (V^N)
V>A = that does V (V^A), that is for V (V:A), that is related to the act of doing V (V-A)

: use (utility transformation)
; apply (application transformation)

• relate (relational transformation)
  ~ quality (qualitative transformation)
  ^ reference (referential transformation)

I think you're right in identifying A^N and V^N (esp in modern usage)

[urban fractal]

so basically i define all words as a sentence
nouns and adjectives have an S somewhere, verbs have an S and O
a noun’s meaning is what S is, an adjective makes a statement where S is the subject or head, a verb makes a statement where S is the subject and O is the object
in these derivations, S and O refer to the new meaning being formed, S.X and O.X are that of the meaning being inputted, and X is the action/state/event of X happening

[winged brook]

oh

nice you're moving a bit closer to my positional parts of speech system

[urban fractal]

also A V N are just adjective verb noun
so oN(V) takes a V and makes it an N

[winged brook]

yes

I worked out what each was via the supplimentary explanations you gave and lined them up with Lipamanka's transformations (plus a bit of new notation that I devised to keep track of them all)

I'm trying to create a bit more specificity to the mathematical model and link up bewteen currently divergent notation systems

[urban fractal]

pona a

[winged brook]

so far I have identified 5 baseline transformations that can be applied to any N,V or A

maybe I should explain these a bit more gimme a sec

X = input (the original word with its original POS meaning), Y = output word (with a new POS based on the original word).

: use (utility transformation) = a transformation to Y based on the usage of X (sometimes on another object)
; apply (application transformation) = a transformation to Y based on the application of X potential of application of X (usually to another object)

• relate (relational transformation) = a transformation to Y based on Y being related to X, or signifying relation to X
  ~ quality (qualitative transformation) = a transformation to Y that is based on Y having qualities of X, or signifying having the qualities of X
  ^ reference (referential transformation) = a transformation to Y where Y references X directly, holding all meanings of X bar its original part of speech

Potential uses -
can replace the > in X>Y
can replace the initial lower case letter in aY(X) or aY

[ashen loom]

Aww man all this is beyond my comprehension

[winged brook]

TL;DR
in lipu pu all words are defined as either adjectives (A), verbs (V) or nouns (N), but the book also gives ways to take any word from one to another (transformations)

lets say that X is the original word and Y is the word after it has been changed to another form

lipamanka's notation is written X>Y.
i.e. A>V, A>N, V>N, V>A, N>V, N>A.

jan Seli's notation is written aY(X) and aY where a is any letter and shows different types of transformation
i.e. sN, qN, oN, uV, mV, vA, nA
and
sN(A), qN(A, V), oN(V), uV(N), mV(A), vA(V), nA(N)

my notation aims to bridge the two with the symbols (:;-~^) by replacing lipamanka's (>) and jSeli's (a). Soooooooo -
X:Y, X;Y, X-Y, X~Y and X^Y,
and
:Y(X), ;Y(X), -Y(X), ~Y(X) and ^Y(X) as well as :Y, ;Y, -Y, ~Y and ^Y

the symbols (:;-~^) represent different types of transformations

[floral crescent]

your tldr was longer

[winged brook]

okay but it was aimed to be less jargon-y

[floral crescent]

i see

good job

[winged brook]

more big jargon mode

N>A>N
jan (N) - ijo jan (-A) [jan li jo e ijo ni] ~ jan (~N) [ni li jan pi ni jo ijo] N-A~N
jan (N) ~ ijo jan (~A) [ijo ni li sama jan] ~ jan (~N) [ni li jan ni pi sama ijo] N~A~N
jan (N) : ijo jan (:A) [jan li kepeken ijo ni] ~ jan (~N) [ni li jan pi kepeken ijo] N:A~N
jan (N) ; ijo jan (;A) [ijo ni li jo e jan, jan li lon ijo] ~ jan (~N) [ni li jan pi lon ijo] N;A~N
nimi ‘jan’ la, N>A>N = N

N>V>N
jan (N) - ijo1 li jan e ijo2 (-V) [ijo1 li lon e ni: jan li jo e ijo2]
; jan (;N) [ni li ijo2)
^ jan (^N) [ni li nasin/pali pi kama jan pi jo ijo]
jan (N) ~ ijo1 li jan e ijo2 (~V) [ijo1 li lon e ni: ijo2 ni li sama jan]
; jan (;N) [ni li ijo2]
^ jan (^N) [ni li nasin/pali pi kama sama jan]
jan (N) : ijo1 li jan e ijo2 (:V) [ijo1 li lon e ni: ijo2 li kepeken jan] [*]
; jan (;N) [ni li ijo2]
^ jan (^N) [ni li nasin/pali pi kepeken jan]
jan (N) ; ijo1 li jan e ijo2 (;V) [ijo1 li lon e ni: jan li lon ijo2 / ijo2 li jo e jan]
; jan (;N) [ni li ijo2]
^ jan (^N) [ni li nasin/pali pi kama jo jan / ni li nasin/pali pi kama jan lon ijo]
[*ijo1 li lon e ni: jam li kepeken ijo2 (?)]
[li lon e = to make something exist in the way that it exists]
nimi ‘jan’ la, N>V>N =/= N

Proof that N>A>N = N and that N>V>N =/= N for jan kpk TPT

[floral crescent]

fuck

I can buy a 100 dollar bill now

[vernal ore]

omg

[winged brook]

WIP

[winged brook]

pona a

[winged brook]

N>A
N-A ijo1 (N) - ijo2 ijo1 (-A) [ijo1 li jo e ijo2 /ijo2 li lon ijo1/ ijo2 li lon kulupu ijo1]
N~A ijo1 (N) ~ ijo2 ijo1 (~A) [ijo2 li sama ijo1]
N:A ijo1 (N) : ijo2 ijo1 (:A) [ijo1 li kepeken ijo2 /ijo1 li kepeken ijo2]
N;A ijo1 (N) ; ijo2 ijo1 (;A) [ijo2 li jo e ijo1 / ijo1 li lon ijo2 / ijo1 li lon kulupu ijo2]

N>V
N-A ijo1 (N) - ijo2 li ijo1 e ijo3 (-V) [ijo2 li lon e ni: ijo1 li jo e ijo3 / ijo3 li lon kulupu ijo1]
N~A ijo1 (N) ~ ijo2 li ijo1 e ijo3 (~V) [ijo2 li lon e ni: ijo3 ni li sama ijo1]
N:A ijo1 (N) : ijo2 li ijo1 e ijo3 (:V) [ijo2 li lon e ni: ijo3 li kepeken ijo1/ijo2 li kepeken ijo3]
N;A ijo1 (N) ; ijo2 li ijo1 e ijo3 (;V) [ijo2 li lon e ni: ijo3 li jo e ijo1 / ijo3 li lon ijo1 / ijo3 li lon kulupu ijo1]

tokiponisation of the transformations N>V and N>A

[floral crescent]

new ko-fi goal

donate to my ko-fi

[brave rune]

the way that you translated kala directly as fish in english had me thinking too literally. I was like, "when is lipamanka gonna become a fish????"

[floral crescent]

I am calquing toki pona

[brave rune]

bad ah

[ashen loom]

mi understand ala e things

Oh no, something beyond my comprehension in #1032830156676538378 again! For the second time!

[floral crescent]

hey i mean

it’s happened to me at least twice too

[leaden cradle]

BAD THING HAPPEN

ACCIDENTALLY CLOSED BROWSER WITH STILL-INCOMPLETE CONTAINMENT FORM

ALL GONE

[floral crescent]

FUCK NO

NOOO

[umbral stream]

google forms saves progress does it not?

[leaden cradle]

uh i can try

[floral crescent]

use history

[leaden cradle]

IT WORKEDDDDDDDDD

[floral crescent]

thank god

[winged brook]

ijo (noun: thing, object, matter) = generic noun with minimal content
kule (adjective: colorful, painted) = generic adjective with minimal content
ante (verb: to change) = generic verb with minimal content

N>A
N-A ijo1 (N) - ijo2 ijo1 (-A) [ijo1 li jo e ijo2 /ijo2 li lon ijo1/ ijo2 li lon kulupu ijo1]
N~A ijo1 (N) ~ ijo2 ijo1 (~A) [ijo2 li sama ijo1 / kule ijo2 li ijo1]
N:A ijo1 (N) : ijo2 ijo1 (:A) [ijo1 li kepeken ijo2 /ijo1 li kepeken ijo2]
N;A ijo1 (N) ; ijo2 ijo1 (;A) [ijo2 li jo e ijo1 / ijo1 li lon ijo2 / ijo1 li lon kulupu ijo2]

N>V
N-V ijo1 (N) - ijo2 li ijo1 e ijo3 (-V) [ijo2 li lon e ni: ijo1 li jo e ijo3 / ijo3 li lon kulupu ijo1]
N~V ijo1 (N) ~ ijo2 li ijo1 e ijo3 (~V) [ijo2 li lon e ni: ijo3 ni li sama ijo1 / kule ijo3 li ijo1]
N:V ijo1 (N) : ijo2 li ijo1 e ijo3 (:V) [ijo2 li lon e ni: ijo3 li kepeken ijo1/ijo2 li kepeken ijo3]
N;V ijo1 (N) ; ijo2 li ijo1 e ijo3 (;V) [ijo2 li lon e ni: ijo3 li jo e ijo1 / ijo3 li lon ijo1 / ijo3 li lon kulupu ijo1]
li lon e = to make something exist in the way that it exists = to make (_) be true

A>N
A~N ijo kule (A) ~ kule (~N) [kule1 li sama kule lon ijo]

A>V
A~V ijo1 kule1 (A) ~ ijo2 li kule1 e ijo3 (~V) [ijo2 li lon e ni: ijo3 li sama kule1 / kule ijo3 li kule1]
A:V ijo1 kule1 (A) - ijo2 li kule1 e ijo3 (-V) [ijo3 li lon e ni: ijo2 li jo e kule1 / kule1 li lon ijo3 / kule1 li lon kulupu ijo3]
A;V ijo1 kule1 (A) ; ijo2 li kule1 e ijo3 (;V) [ijo2 li lon e ni: kule1 li jo e ijo3 / ijo3 li lon kule1 / ijo3 li lon kulupu kule1]
li lon e = to make something exist in the way that it exists = to make (_) be true

V>N
V;N ijo1 li ante1 e ijo2 (V) ; ante1 (;N) [ante1 li ante1 ijo2]
V^N ijo1 li ante1 e ijo2 (V) ^ ante1 (-N) [ante1 li nasin pali pi kama ante1 tan ijo1]

V>A

V-A    ijo1 li ante1 e ijo2 (V) - ijo2 ante1 (-A) [ijo1 li jo e ijo2 / ijo2 li lon ijo1 / ijo2 li lon kulupu ijo1]
V:A    ijo1 li ante1 e ijo2 (V) : ijo2 ante1 (:A) [ijo2 li kepeken ante1 / ante1 li kepeken ijo2] 
V^A    ijo1 li ante1 e ijo2 (V) ^ ijo1 ante1 (^A) [ijo1 li ante1 e ijo ante]

[floral crescent]

jesus

[winged brook]

I converted each of the transformations into toki pona :))

(peer review would be appreciated but not demanded)

[floral crescent]

lol

I will maybe do that

[floral crescent]

I now have some fanart

[rough isle]

ni li lukin pona

[undone crescent]

lukin pona tu a

[brave rune]

us

[floral crescent]

OMG

<@&587034472898101250> can someone pin this

[floral crescent]

mu

[vernal ore]

no way

when are you expected to kama kala

[floral crescent]

once a day

I'm almost out of fish semisolid tho

[vernal ore]

oh no

[floral crescent]

new goal

https://ko-fi.com/lipamanka/goal?g=0

[vernal ore]

stick speedrun

[floral crescent]

wow

okay time to get a new goal

okay new goal https://ko-fi.com/lipamanka/goal?g=0

OH MY GOD

[vernal ore]

do you lay your eggs yourself

[young moat]

scrunkly

[floral crescent]

which optoin will make it more likely for me to recieve money

[rough isle]

yes

[vernal ore]

idc as long as they hatch into little baby lipamankas

[floral crescent]

they do

[vernal ore]

hell yeah

[echo lion]

I can figure most of these calques out but WHAT IS FISH SEMISOLID

This has been eating away at me for like several hours

[urban fractal]

||shower soap||

i think

[echo lion]

musi mute aaaaa

[floral crescent]

yea

[ashen loom]

The wise ones

Also I guessed that black fluid stick means ||pen|| because ||pen||s are sticks and ||ink|| is usually a black liquid. That was easy.

Still can't guess what "fish semisolid" is though

Knowledge house is def ||school|| and the wise ones are def ||teachers||

[ashen loom]

Bread pellets def ||cereal|| because ||cereal|| has wheat as an ingredient and animal juice is def ||milk||. The biggest giveaway was the "which do u put in first" question; before I read that question I thought that bread pellets were ||bread crumbs|| and animal juice was something animal-related and presumably icky, but then I read the "which do u put in first" question and it hit me

[ashen loom]

||shower soap|| is definitely semisolid but I still wonder wheee the fish comes from

[vernal ore]

organism submerged in water = kala

to many people including lipamanka i believe

[ashen loom]

So you mean that if I jump into a swimming pool

I can become a fish :O

[frank star]

No, you become a kala. But fish are kala tho :D

[echo lion]

||Is taking a shower really submerging yourself ||🤔

[vernal ore]

fair

[leaden cradle]

||lipamanka likes to take baths so||

[echo lion]

a ni li kala!

[gloomy shale]

@floral crescent mi sona ala e poki sike

ni li seme lon toki pona

[floral crescent]

poki sike

(ijo ante la kon li lon; ijo ni la kon li lon ala a a a)

[gloomy shale]

a a a

[floral crescent]

<@&1061183612709515354> hello friends are u excited for a new form so am I I am waiting for ideas to come into my brain so no poll rn sorry

[hushed gorge]

mu

[young moat]

A new form of what

[floral crescent]

one of my new forms lol

uknow

the cool ones

[echo lion]

Wasn’t mu vs. kalama an option floating around?

[floral crescent]

I couldn't think of a cool form

yeah it was gbut I didn't make the poll so

¯_(ツ)_/¯

anyway this is just me saying : start a conversation about some cool toki pona thing you're interested in, and u might convince me to make it into a poll

like tomorrow

[young moat]

wait i'm so mentally burnt out i'm sorry are you planning on a poll for a form for an essay or an essay for a form for a book or a new form of essay or nothing or what

[hushed gorge]

i think this could lead so some cool discussion

[hushed gorge]

a google form poll for an essay that will ultimately go into a book (this is how i understand it, at least)

[young moat]

ijo li ken pona e pakala
If anything i feel like it's less permanent and innate

i mean ijo li ken pona e ike kin but

like. the vibes right? you get them

pakala feels temporary because you assume there is some state and often time in which it worked

[polar charm]

maybe jaki as well

[floral crescent]

okay I'm going to bed

good night

[polar charm]

night night

[floral crescent]

(i.e. be in my bed on my phone)

[polar charm]

bad, take away the phone and sleep

jk, ily

[hushed gorge]

pakala-s definitely don't have to be ike. i think the ike connotation is so prevalent just because there are so many scenarios where something being broken etc. is bad

i want to react to just the first part

lol yeah

hmmmm im trying to think of some object that might be better pakala'd

[floral crescent]

aw ily2

do u know who else i love

@brave rune

[hushed gorge]

maybe pakala musi, like it can be fun to build something then knock it over

i dont know what youre talking about

[floral crescent]

anyway have ppl decided on what they want the next poll to be about

[brave rune]

IL LOVE YOU TOO

[floral crescent]

omg

[hushed gorge]

is this like that thing that was just a banana taped to a wall

OOOH yeah i know about that stuff that's pretty cool

i was thinking about the kind of art that everybody laughs at because it looks like the artist put no effort into it but it's still selling for millions of dollars
which is alright from an art perspective but pretty cringe from a capitalism perspective

[young moat]

i'm going to thread

we are not the same

[ashen loom]

It's ok let the ideas take their time

[leaden cradle]

an egg i want to eat

[young moat]

capitalism

[hushed gorge]

Already done

[normal hearth]

for pakalas that are pona tbh the first thought that came to my mind was a piñata

[rough isle]

(taso ni li pona ala tawa soweli poki)

[sand marsh]

i think pakala implies that something used to not be pakala without implying positive or negative. if it’s supposed to be whole, then it’s bad, and if it’s supposed to be pakala, then it’s good. most things are not made to be broken, so pakala is often bad

[rain lotus]

it's weird, i've just never thought of pakala as inherently being about Destruction
it's about breaking, but that doesn't mean it's like. a particular kind of breaking
cutting up an onion is pakala, breaking off a piece of clay with your hands is pakala, blowing smth up is pakala, cutting a piece of wood is pakala, &c&c

[hushed gorge]

Smh that's what kipisi is for /j

[rain lotus]

sorry i don't use bad words

[strong bramble]

how to get this ping

[floral crescent]

#poki

[strong bramble]

ayyyyyyyyyyyyy

thx

[sand marsh]

i could see using pakala in context for taking something apart to examine it as well. mi pakala e ona, mi lukin e insa ona

[brave rune]

@floral crescent guess what

ily

[floral crescent]

trueee

[floral crescent]

this project is lapeing

[leaden cradle]

good because i am lapeing on containment form

i think im just gonna turn it in without jo and lawa filled out

i did that

@floral crescent have fun

[floral crescent]

pona I'll read it when I'm less overwhelmed

[leaden cradle]

alright :))

be good to yourself <3

[hushed gorge]

i just realized it would be cool for book lipamanka to use linja lipamanka

[floral crescent]

it will lol

[hushed gorge]

yay

[brave rune]

wait why is this not called lipumanka

[floral crescent]

it is

[visual oracle]

the book of Minecraft 👍

[mystic prairie]

icecream sandwich ❤️

[brave rune]

the writer li LON

[floral crescent]

REAL

[leaden cradle]

WOAH

[blissful crag]

i take credit for suggesting this >:)

[rain lotus]

okay u get credit for my identity

[brave rune]

couples photo

[rain lotus]

omg

that’s what my bf was using

[frank star]

I want to make one now I’ve never used VRchat- I have a rigged model of para but I don’t really know if it’d work- I started to make one for my fursona but it’s only a face right now

[frank star]

I’ll take a look at them, but there are a lot more reasons why I don’t wanna use the para model

[rain lotus]

ignore

okay this one is WRONG

wait

<@&1061183612709515354> I have made a cool new resource, I would like your feedback on it! this is draft number one.

oops double ping

[brave rune]

needs color

[rain lotus]

anyway it's like, designed to be

1. useful at a glance
2. subtly teach nuance
3. reflect common usage
4. encourage exploration

[tired ocean]

lipamanka is essential vocab

[rain lotus]

I'm not gonna format it until I can test it in the VR chat thing with the lower res android thing what @raven ibex told me about

[tired ocean]

real actually

[brave rune]

oh is it not readable in android mode?

[rain lotus]

oh I forgot to

waso Wen ↩️

[Reply to:](#1032830156676538378 message) real actually 📎

unjoke that one

[tired ocean]

mu and kalama as synonyms is interesting but also i dont think there is like any point in getting into the differences between them bc of how vibe based it is on a chart like this

[brave rune]

not like super bad (and certainly not as much as the banner it's replacing 💀) but there could be some colors to spice it up and make it more playful in order to match the vibes of the classroom

[rain lotus]

oh I forgot to get rid of "see: mu" for kalama lol that one was a joke

[brave rune]

also a black-and-white one can be used in the outdoor space and other contexts where it shouldn't be colorful

[jaunty seal]

lukin mi la o wan e sitelen Lasina e sitelen pona pi nimi sama, o weka e nimi ante tan nimi ante.

[rain lotus]

I think what if this was like. okay so there are 117 words total here

[tacit totem]

mu = sound
kalama = three-syllable-long sound

[shy heart]

monsi

[rain lotus]

how can I divvy this up into multiple posters

[tired ocean]

mu and kalama are basically the same tho

/hj /the second half is the joke

[rain lotus]

we could have seven 16x16 posters

no..

five 4x5 posters, one of which has three slots missing, those slots are filled by the lipamanka glyph as my signature

[tacit totem]

the second half as in the last four words?

[tired ocean]

/ambiguous

[rain lotus]

I fixed monsi lol

what's for

[nimble sentinel]

i dont think the unpa def with the f word is necessary @floral crescent

[rain lotus]

I included it on purpose

having "fuck" in more than one definition makes it more clear that those topics aren't vulgar

[nimble sentinel]

As i read further im realizing this is likely not meant as a Professional Source

And more of just gettin funky ?

[rain lotus]

this is meant to be a learning tool

[nimble sentinel]

Yeah but not like Ooh Im Formal

[rain lotus]

it being a little silly makes it better serve that purpose

[nimble sentinel]

Formal is the word yes

[echo lion]

If you’re including buy for esun, i would also include sell

[rain lotus]

I decided against that mostly because I don't see it used like that

I added some plausable modes of exploring the semantic space (like "swap") because they seem very understandable within what I see used, but using esun for sell specifically isn't like . hm actually..

I'll have to like poll it at some point and maybe I'll make a v2

never mind esun's semantic space is shifting in my mind

[echo lion]

esun form 👀👀

[rain lotus]

maybe

[rain lotus]

update: I did it

jan Ono‼ ↩️

[Reply to:](#1032830156676538378 message) If you’re including buy for esun, i would also include sell

some other changes:

• ijo includes "something"
• kala includes "whale"
• kalama includes "static" and "hum" (not sure how I feel 'bout them honestly)
• kule now includes "pitch" "flavor pallet" and "texture"
• kulupu includes "society" and "plural system"
• laso now includes "blueish purpleish"
• len now includes "clothing"

more to come

[raven ibex]

also unpa now includes erotic right

i'm not a fan of kalama including static/hum
like those are sounds yes but why those specifically
i've never seen them talked about

[rain lotus]

• added "bagel hole" to lupa
• added "orangeish" to loje
• added "website" and "file" to lipu
• added "worm" and "(weasel?)" to linja (I'll prolly remove weasel ngl but I think it's kinda funny, if it stays it's staying in parentheses)
• added "slug" and "sponge" to ko
• REMOVED STATIC AND HUM FROM KALAMA lol
• added "wampum" to mani (?)
• added "feminine" and "masculine" to meli and mije
• added "(demonstrative)" to ni

might remove bagel hole

but it MEANS A LOT TO ME >:(

okay I'll keep going through it tomorrow I need to shower and go to bed rn

[raven ibex]

your post is the first instance of "wampum" on this server, and my post here is the second

[rain lotus]

wampum is really cool!

[urban fractal]

ni should have “that” too anu seme

[rain lotus]

NO

ABSOLUTELY NOT >:(

that is misleading

[urban fractal]

howwwww

[rain lotus]

I decided very specifically against it

[urban fractal]

people use it for thatttttt

[rain lotus]

because ni doesn't mean 'that'

[urban fractal]

it doessssss

sina nasaaaaaaaa

[rain lotus]

it just doesn't have a proximity distinction!!!

so including "that" will make people think about it the wrong way!!!

[urban fractal]

but it not having a proximity distinction means it means “this” and “that”!!!!!
thats like saying “mi doesnt make a number distinction so i should only list ‘i, me, my’”!!!!!!

[rain lotus]

either people won't notice (good, it will instil good practices) or they ask about it and someone explains nuancedly about the proximity distinction !!!!!

unlike including we in "mi" because that will instil good practices!!!!

I am a master of design!!!

[urban fractal]

what good practice is impeded by including “that”!!

[rain lotus]

if large domesticated land animal is just as specific as wampum anyway and I want more people to look up stuff about indigenous cultures

go to sleep!!!! /I win the silly argument

jan pi scribble Seli ↩️

[Reply to:](#1032830156676538378 message) what good practice is impeded by including “that”!!

[raven ibex]

the explanation i would have given before today: «it means "this" or "that", idk why they didn't include "that" on this diagram»

[urban fractal]

[rain lotus]

sleeping disorder update: my sleeping disorder has mutated

I now automatically wake up every day at 9:30

it's horrible

none!!! that's my point!!

jan pi scribble Seli ↩️

[Reply to:](#1032830156676538378 message) what good practice is impeded by including “that”!!

[urban fractal]

seme!!!!!!

[rain lotus]

including "that" is not good!!!

no good practices come from it!!!

[urban fractal]

but youre saying it doesnt impede any good practices

[rain lotus]

oh I misread

honestly though thinking about ni as meaning "this" and "that" will make learners think in english for longer

even if it's SLIGHT

I am a DESIGNER

I am DESIGNING

[urban fractal]

only listing “this” will make learners think in english more bc theyll think theres a proximity distinction

like its possible they wont notice and think of “this” and “that” as similar enough to use the same word but like. why introduce that confusion!!!!

[raven ibex]

ni pi poka ala

[urban fractal]

exactly

[rain lotus]

you can specify proximity with ni poka and ni weka !!!!!

but you don't have to !!!!!

that's how "this" works in engish too!!!! it can be unspecified proximity!!!!

[urban fractal]

not really!
i wouldnt point at something far away and say “this” i think!

[raven ibex]

points at something far away

this
listener interprets that there's something conceptually near about this far-away thing

[rain lotus]

that's weird!!!

you're doing english wrong!!!!

[raven ibex]

points at something far away

ni
listener interprets that there's something conceptually near about this far-away thing...?

[rain lotus]

stop it!!!!!!

[urban fractal]

[rain lotus]

okay how about this

if you give me five dollars on ko-fi

I will

add "that"

/manipulation /coersion

[raven ibex]

i mean that i feel like that's how i would interpret someone doing that
probably not consciously

[urban fractal]

🫡

[rain lotus]

maybe it's because nobody uses the "that" proximity distiction in portuguese

[raven ibex]

like "this building" (points far away) to represent a building that you're traveling to tomorrow

[rain lotus]

okay how about

I add "that"

and I also add "yonder"

how do we feel

is this GOOD

[raven ibex]

i'm not arguing for adding "that" btw, i'm exploring this

[rain lotus]

I kno wi"m stillyelling at JAN SELI!!!!!!

[urban fractal]

“yonder” is not nearly as common as “this” and “that”

[rain lotus]

/betrayed /angry /multiplle personality disorder /dangerous

exactly 🙂

jan pi scribble Seli ↩️

[Reply to:](#1032830156676538378 message) “yonder” is not nearly as common as “this” and “that”

[urban fractal]

[rain lotus]

[raven ibex]

yonder is cute hmm

[rain lotus]

do you have a boyfriend who made you a cool avatar in VR chat? I don't think so

I win

:)

🙂

LOOK AT IT

[urban fractal]

what if i have a girlfriend who made me a cool avatar in manyland? checkmate

[rain lotus]

you don't though

you're single

[urban fractal]

i did tho

[rain lotus]

/truth

fake

[urban fractal]

[rain lotus]

is it as good as my avatar

manyland

[raven ibex]

i think yonder is a good idea actually

[urban fractal]

mine is a cat so yes it’s better

[rain lotus]

incorrect

jan pi scribble Seli ↩️

[Reply to:](#1032830156676538378 message) mine is a cat so yes it’s better

[raven ibex]

i like these two

this
this, that, yonder
better than i like this one
this, that

[rain lotus]

wrong

[urban fractal]

why is there a semicolon

[rain lotus]

true

waso Keli ↩️

[Reply to:](#1032830156676538378 message) i like these two

this
this, that, yonder
better than i like this one
this, that

jan pi scribble Seli ↩️

[Reply to:](#1032830156676538378 message) why is there a semicolon …

because

it makes "that" and "yonder" secondary meanings :3

[urban fractal]

fake

[rain lotus]

[urban fractal]

[rain lotus]

anyway here's a fucking POSTER I made that's gonna be on VR CHAT or someth

with a giant WATERMARK!!!

[raven ibex]

is that watermark 9x as big as everything else

or what's 2.5 squared

it feels like 2.5 as tall

[rain lotus]

it's significat

[leaden cradle]

add indeed to kin i want people to use that more

[jaunty seal]

o pana e nimi collection anu?

pakala la mi toki ala e ni: pali sina li pona :)

[undone crescent]

ijo: action
I mean, I guess
alasa: try
Hmmm... The way you talked about "ni" not using "that" as an example at one point (I know this changed), "try" doesn't quite fit into that, I feel? It's definitely very related, but "mi alasa e kili" and "I'm trying out apples" are probably the furthest apart way to separate these - but this example probably isn't actually fair, I just have yet to formulate my thoughts around this and it could take another year or so
ike: bad, worsen, negative quality
pona: good, positive quality
I think this list put these 2 together in a more antonymic way than I've seen in most lists - not a criticism, just interesting to see
jelo: orangeish
(this is me lying, it doesn't say that)
jo: own
also interesting to see this!
kala: submarine
hm
not wrong
I doubt I'd ever do this
kalama: see mu
SLANDER! (you changed it)
kama: become
Oh!
Wait
Is this preverb usage, or would this also be non-preverb usage?
lukin: try
Oh so this does include preverb usage
Hm, I see the semicolon on alasa now
But no semicolon on kama?
And on sona? Hm, unless "know how" and "know-how" are the same, anglophones will have to tell me
mama: familial
Hmm
that is true, but seems misleading? Like, a general familial thing, yes, but not any, such as a parent's offspring being familial, right? Although technically, mama also works for that
nimi: sentence
hm, I think I should place another I guess :despair: here?
pipi: non-cute animal
(I have fabricated another lie)
poka: contextual
I'm not sure I understand what this is for?
poki: label
I know what this is for, and it might be confusing
wan: married
I guess :despair:
waso: airplane
same as kala
weka: ignored
Oh, that's pu, isn't it? I'm... not sure how that is meant, tbh
kili: spice, herb, extra, garnish, additional, ornamental, the cherry on top
(lie)
kin: also, in addition
aw
monsuta: spooky, scary, monster
one-sided monsuta, interesting!

[urban fractal]

i think the "ignored" meaning is so that "mi weka e ijo" can mean "i ignore something"

[undone crescent]

interesting
I haven't seen that
but I haven't been looking either

[urban fractal]

i think id usually specify like "mi weka e ni lon lawa mi/tan pilin mi" but i think it works

[undone crescent]

oh definitely
but I'd need stronger context if the prepositional phrase were left out, I think, so that one stands out

[urban fractal]

makes sense

[floral crescent]

"ignore" for "weka" is pu

[urban fractal]

mi sona

actually what do u mean by that specifically

[floral crescent]

it says that

[urban fractal]

do you mean that "ignored" is there or that an example with "ignore" is there

[floral crescent]

in the definition

idk about an example

[urban fractal]

i dont know of any examples either

im just wondering since you said "ignore" not "ignored"

tho isnt your resource supposed to be descriptive
it doesnt matter if its in pu

[floral crescent]

ohhhh

[urban fractal]

pu li suli la o toki e 'few' lon nimi 'lili'

[floral crescent]

I did lol

it's there

[urban fractal]

i kinda assumed it wouldnt be since you were saying its not really used like that anymore

[floral crescent]

and yeah it's supposed to be a teaching resource but it's also designed to encourage experimentation

I got good dw

I realized my nasin can shift it just takes like. a day

<@&1061183612709515354>

draft 2

[simple magnet]

eagle misspelled as "eagel" in waso definition

[floral crescent]

of course I did

[nimble sentinel]

how fo yall feel about “pilin monsuta” to say scared/afraid

Unrelated to ur thing it just reminded me of it

hum in kalama as humm idk if thats on purpose or not

[floral crescent]

intentional

a humm is less of a human sound

[nimble sentinel]

👍

[jagged osprey]

oh yeah mine says that too

[jaunty seal]

seli li pini la, ona sina li mu tu wan anu tu tu anu luka anu?

[jagged osprey]

did you exclude the jaki meaning of like jaki Kolona?

[floral crescent]

ohh I forgot about that!

[urban fractal]

disease

[floral crescent]

thank u

[jaunty seal]

nasa la sitelen Lasina pi nimi "pu" li sewi

[floral crescent]

a sina pona

mi alasa pona e ni lon nimi ale

[jaunty seal]

sitelen "noka" en "pilin" en "seli" li lon poki nasa li weka nasa

[floral crescent]

sina pona

[jaunty seal]

sina pona :)

[floral crescent]

a lon la mi pona pini e ni

[jaunty seal]

n sitelen pona "pilin" li awen lon poka tu... mi lukin pi tenpo lili la pakala li ken lon sona mi

[floral crescent]

a ala

mi pana e lipu
mi pona e pilin <---------------
sina toki e ni: pilin li pakala |
mi toki e ni: mi pona e pilin ----

[jaunty seal]

pilin li pakala 💔 /musi

nimi "pan" en nimi "suno" la sitelen lili , li lon pini toki

[floral crescent]

@sullen ember @rancid talon

how do u feel

[tired ocean]

waso :)

[floral crescent]

about having ur beautiful glyphs

featured

[rancid talon]

mi pilin linjamanka

[keen forum]

petition to get one or more of ["smurf", "jawn"] added to the ijo def

[floral crescent]

what’s a jawn

[keen forum]

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jawn#Etymology_2

[floral crescent]

i mean i’ll do it tbh

[floral crescent]

essay idea: is an argument an utala? what are we throwing away with a lack of nuance here?

[undone crescent]

there's a threshold where a toki utala becomes an utala toki, maybe?

[floral crescent]

i think arguments are inherently war-like in english speaking culture (and probably a lot of other western cultures) just because of how ingrained that metaphor is in our idioms (i read about this on stream a few days ago)

toki pona should help us not argue

argument is a western concept imo, cultures can conduct discourse in other ways and i think argument is not very fun to participate in

[undone crescent]

contests can be fun

I'm not sure what "argument" means

[floral crescent]

a type of communication where the two parties have opposing ideas and are trying to convince each other that they are right, usually

[leaden cradle]

thats an utala

[floral crescent]

toki pona should discourage this

or it should make more clear how that type of discourse is similar to war and therefore bad

[leaden cradle]

ken la jan toki li utala ala. taso sona en pilin ona li utala.. anu seme

[floral crescent]

ken la toki o utala ala o wan

sona o kama wan

jan ante li sona mute la o kute

sina en jan ante li sona sama la o alasa e sona pona

[rocky urchin]

lipu lipamanka

[urban fractal]

@floral crescent you should include “number of” in mute
a common mistake i see is using nanpa for quantity, since “number” is used this way in english

[rain lotus]

i have amount

that might be something i could add tho

i’ll sleep on it

[rain lotus]

I've started to work on one of these that explains particles

still workshopping this diea

I'm thinking about adding a specific label here

[smoky temple]

where are these definitions (gonna be) published?

[keen forum]

i know what this is trying to say but it feels like it's saying there's a type of physical container nicknamed a lesbian
doesn't help that recently i read about a type called gaylord

[naive lava]

i,,, don't get it's trying to say
is it saying that lesbian is an umbrella term?

[ashen loom]

Wow! Our nasins differ a bit! Interesting! /genuine
(labels feel more nimi to me, groupings feel more kulupu to me, though I wouldn't mind using poki to refer to labels and groupings as well; I'll consider it. Also, I'm not saying the definitions are bad by any means, I've just never thought of using poki that way before, and so have never used it like that before)

Funny how the thought of using "poki kon" to mean "balloon" crossed my mind long before the thought of using "poki" to mean label or grouping

[naive lava]

mi la, nimi poki is a very good way to say label
and imma probably be using it in the future if i remember

i dont know if i'd use just poki for label
I see the reasoning, but to me a label is primarily a nimi

[winged brook]

I think it depends on how label is used

like 'grouping' or 'pidgeon holing,' = poki

the physical label - lipu
the words on a label or label meaning word - nimi

alao grouping, =/= group together alwaya

grouping as in 'grouping together' 'huddling' etc - kulupu
grouping as in unifying - wan
grouping as in separating into their own distinct groups such that each is in a specific place or box (literal or abstract) - poki

[winged brook]

poki isnused like this in #poki and #poki-toki

[naive lava]

yea that's true

i meant label in the way that "gamer" or "bisexual" is a label
a word that categorises a concept into a poki

[winged brook]

yeah

thats a nimi

it can be a nimi for a poki

or nimi for a kulupu

[ashen loom]

True

[winged brook]

mute should be used as a noun more

[ashen loom]

Makes sense to me

[floral crescent]

I don't like this

sorry sean

[floral crescent]

well I'm th3e kulupu poki so I win

[hushed gorge]

i strongly agree with this

[floral crescent]

<@&1061183612709515354> here's the penultimate draft, please look it over and give any final feedback! the next version will be final, it will include a licence (probably CC? not sure which one, I still gotta look into that) and the DRAFT watermark will get removed

[young moat]

isn't it Wazowski with an A

[brave rune]

cold

[floral crescent]

thanks lol

[brave rune]

having only they and it for ona scares me because I feel like people using this would start saying ona mije and ona meli for he and she

[leaden cradle]

^^^^^^^

[floral crescent]

what if I did they, it, any third person pronoun; ex: he, she

[brave rune]

this could be solved without including the gendered pronouns by adding "third person pronoun" as another definition

[brave rune]

ye

[floral crescent]

honestly I don't need the ex

[vernal ore]

i just realized the glyph for olin is funky

[floral crescent]

I tried to fix it, nothign worked, whatever

[vernal ore]

top heart has a point on the inside and the bottom heart is rounded there

[jaunty seal]

mi lukin e nimi pakala "essencial"

[floral crescent]

yeah

essential

[jaunty seal]

nimi Li en E en sama li lon ala tan seme?

[floral crescent]

oh did I forget sama

[jaunty seal]

ala a a a

[floral crescent]

nope sama's there

oh

I am not including grammatical particles

[jaunty seal]

sama li nimi "En" li "La"

tan seme

[floral crescent]

do you wanna try to explain the grammar of toki pona in three short lines with maybe nine words maximum each

without being like confusing

[uncut rivet]

oooo nice :D

[jaunty seal]

nn alasa suli a a a

[floral crescent]

I am making a different chart for particles

[jaunty seal]

nasin ante a

mi sona

[young moat]

i think it'd be good to keep the "any"

then people know it's any

[floral crescent]

alright I'll add it back in, I agree

[brave rune]

if you're capitalizing the jan examples you should probably also capitalize the musi examples

[floral crescent]

Great idea

[brave rune]

oh and Communism and Taoism

[floral crescent]

why does communism need to be capitalized

I don't personally get taoism but idk much about that so I'll do it

[hushed gorge]

Is this designed to fit nicely onto some specific size of paper

[floral crescent]

uhhh not particularly

it's meant to be an image shared online

I'm going to make versions of it that are paper sized though

[brave rune]

it shouldn't idk why I thought that lol

[floral crescent]

awww that's so cute of you...

[strong bramble]

sama la ilo mi li mu

[floral crescent]

does anyone here have a printer they can use to test how printable a printer sheet sized version of this is

[undone crescent]

awen: preverb (or the semicolon) missing
jan: maybe a line break or two?
kama, sona, ken: missing preverb semicolon?
lipu: no flatness? that's fine, just want to be sure
namako:

[floral crescent]

what about namako

but thanks for the other notes ljsdfkl

[undone crescent]

(it's the wrong glyph) sigh nothing /overly dramatic

[floral crescent]

can someone see if this prints well

this is what it looks like

[simple magnet]

it's a bit cut off at the bottom
probably just my printer being weird

[floral crescent]

I see

no, not just your printer

thank you for testing this out btw

is this a standard size piece of paper?

[simple magnet]

yeah

[urban fractal]

i think more space around the edges would be good
i don’t think most printers have margins that small

[floral crescent]

okay

OH it's A4 sized

not US letter

whoopsies

YEP

I changed it and wow

okay

gimmie a minute

[brave rune]

:3

[floral crescent]

@simple magnet

(for everyone else to see)

wait actually I might make everythign a bit bigger

[floral crescent]

because there's a setting when you print things to add a margin

[floral crescent]

OKAY! It's printable!

great

thank you!

everything's readable right?

[simple magnet]

yeah

[floral crescent]

wooo!

I've decided to licence it under CC BY-SA 4.0

okay official release time

[rough isle]

whoo

[floral crescent]

who?

me

lipamanka

<@&1061183612709515354> my resource is now it #pana

[hushed gorge]

super yay

[leaden cradle]

woooooo

[echo jungle]

Maybe utala is any discourse between two or more people? Whether it be conversation or something else. Maybe it should require competitiveness. Maybe unpa can be utala too since they're both competing to offer the other the best one.

[floral crescent]

utala is not any discourse between two people

that's what I'm avoiding

seeing unpa as inherently utala is . kind of dangerous

like it can be for some people but it's not only possible but super healthy to have sex that isn't utala

[leaden cradle]

unpa being inherently utala is a really shitty take tbh

[floral crescent]

if a discourse is an utala it will be a type of battle

that core of utala will always be true

[tired ocean]

an utala doesnt have to be inherently negative /this is not at the unpa take before people ask lol

like an utala can be mutually beneficial /this is why i put that disclaimer

[floral crescent]

it can be

it's still a type of battle though

[tired ocean]

idk my take on this other than i have had some really fun arguments before

[floral crescent]

yeah I have had some really fun battles

(genuinely)

(like, with foam weapons)

sports are usually fun

[tired ocean]

yeah true

[floral crescent]

I often enjoy taking standardized tests to a degree

utala can mean "challenging" but not really in a bad way

[tired ocean]

its more like i dont really like the idea that utala-y discourse is inherently a bad way of doing discourse

[frank star]

Hmm no idea if this is a fair assessment but:
toki utala isn’t an argument more often than it is. It can strategizing, venting, discussion of competitions, or just angering words. utala toki is something else I can’t quite think of what to say (which I guess could be described using utala toki because its a struggle of talking)

[floral crescent]

I wouldn't describe venting as toki utala

but I would describe the others as types of battles

or discussion related to battle

[frank star]

It’s struggle talk ig but there’s a better way of saying it probably

[floral crescent]

most of my vents are not utala-y or related to utala

unless they're like, venting about an utala or something

if that makes sense

[frank star]

I think of utala as just like a general struggle or difficulty? I don’t know if it’s a fair way to think of it. It might be a lexicaliztation tho

[floral crescent]

lexicalization? no it's already a word in the lexicon

[frank star]

I have no idea what I’m saying sometimes
I should have said I don’t know if I’m stretching the definition

I MEANT CALQUE
I meant calque
I didn’t know the difference but now I do

[floral crescent]

idk either

[frank star]

Now that I think about it, utala toki meaning struggling with words is a bit of a calque

[floral crescent]

I don't think so

[frank star]

I’m just thinking that using utala with other words doesn’t work as well… like utala lape… but actually this might be ok tbh
Cus like utala lape could mean like restfully battling?

[floral crescent]

utala lape is great for like struggling to fall asleep

[frank star]

Yeah that’s what I was thinking but I doubted it at first

The most clear way to say argument would probably be utala kepeken toki

[naive lava]

and for struggling to get up in the morning

[rancid talon]

dialectics: sona utala

(both lexicalized and not lexicalized, in proper dialectic fashion)/j

in my experience, learning is best described not by kama sona, but by utala sona. The knowledge struggle. One can collect facts, or come to wisdom, but to truly internalize it is to investigate it, test it, allow it to offer resistance to you until it is no longer acting against you, but towards your purpose. life is a series of struggles, both good and bad. This is not to say that we should glorify conflict, but perhaps within utala we may find meaning in struggle in ways that the english connotations of battle, wrestle, conflict, and the like prevent us from.

[winged brook]

I'd say alasa for this

mi toki pona la, en 'learning' en 'research' li pilin sama li pilin pi nimi 'alasa'

utala sona li pilin ante

[rancid talon]

a

[winged brook]

mi kama/alasa sona la, mi wile ala utala. tomo sona li utala sona e mi la, mi ken ala utala wawa la, ona li nanpa lili e sona mi.

ni li ike tawa mi.

ante la, ona li toki

toki sona

en jan sona en jan pi sona lili li toki sona la, jan pi sona lili li kama jan sona.

sina sona ala sona e pilin mi? sina pilin sama ala sama?

[rancid talon]

sona. taso mi pilin ni: nasin mi pi nimi utala en nasin sina li ante lili. mi pali la mi pana sona nanpa. jan mute mi pi kama sona li wile ala utala. taso ona li utala ala la ona li ... ona li sona ala e sona. ona li alasa e nasin sona pi utala ala la ona li utala e nasin. ni la ona li utala ike tan ni: ona li wile ala utala pona. mi sona e nasin pilin sina. mi en sina li ken sama. mi pilin ni: toki mi sina li ante taso pilin li sama lili.

pilin mi li utala e nasin toki pi toki pona. mi alasa e nasin toki pona tawa pilin mi a a a

[floral crescent]

in V2 of my thing I'm gonna organize words based on putting things semantically related next to each other and drawing boxes around them

[rancid talon]

YES I LOVE DOING THAT

[raven ibex]

every time i try to do that it's easy for like a third of them and then impossibly hard for the rest

o wawa

[floral crescent]

thanks for the well wishes

[floral crescent]

hey everyone I'm making a toki pona course

it's going for the "I am autistic and I can't look away" learning style

<@&1061183612709515354>

[simple magnet]

bottom left, opportunity is misspelled

[hushed gorge]

Super cool

[leaden cradle]

u forgot to change the text for the moku ala moku away from anu seme

mu is labeled as moku

kili is labeled as pipi and used in the sentence as pipi

[rocky urchin]

there is a soweli marked as an akesi

[simple magnet]

also alasa and kili

[floral crescent]

lol

if anything is on the left side I haven't actually fixed anythign there yet lmao

[hushed gorge]

Use this version to learn toki pona if you want to learn toki pona in HARD MODE where you start out with wrong information and you have to break bad habits for the rest of your life

[rocky urchin]

on the right side

[floral crescent]

SDJFJKSLDKFJ

[floral crescent]

thank u

[rocky urchin]

ni li moku mute

[sly pasture]

divine is misspelled on the right side

[floral crescent]

thanks!

[visual oracle]

-remind 24h look at the thing

[scarlet briar]

Set a reminder in 1 day from now (<t:1676748273:f>)
View reminders with the Reminders command

[floral crescent]

what thing 👀

[visual oracle]

the course thing

the thing you posted the start of

[floral crescent]

ohhhhhhhh

[floral crescent]

hmmm I'm trying to think of a way to explain how modification works in a way that sets up a good foundation for teaching pi

but I feel like I'm being too verbose and I don't have enough examples

and it's also not very clear

wait I had an idea

okay I like this a lot

I might change the toki pona example because it could be misleading - good is an adjective on its own

okay here we go!

[raven ibex]

i would try to make it visually clearer that "mi li wawa" is incorrect, for people who skim or forget

like fade it out or something

a teaching principle
people remember what they're told, and they don't always remember whether it's described as false
if you introduce people to misinformation and describe it as misinformation, some people will remember it as true
so some people will inevitably learn "mi li" from a diagram like this
but you can minimize that by labeling it very redundantly and obviously as false

[floral crescent]

I did that already :3

[raven ibex]

yesss

oh that's much prettier than what i had in mind

[hushed gorge]

i like these colors

[floral crescent]

improved it more

[frank star]

I always wonder why you don’t need a li in front of mi or sina…
Same for x ala x but I like to think that it’s x ala anu x, but the anu is dropped for flow, and because it’s not needed. It’s probably the same for mi and sina li.
But this makes me wonder, why not drop it in other cases? If mi and sina can still be modified, then it should stand to reason that li would only be necessary when the subject has a modifier.
I don’t like this tbh, nor do I like mi li, I just wonder if there’s a reason more than flow and aesthetic to dropping li.

[scarlet briar]

Reminder for @visual oracle

Reminder from YAGPDB

look at the thing

[frank star]

Ooh I like the arrows

[floral crescent]

arrows will be used consistently in examples to show modification visually

[frank star]

They’re pretty arrows

[floral crescent]

https://lipamanka.github.io/resources/dictionary?a

[urban fractal]

the mi wawa one doesn't make sense
if wawa is modifying mi then it's just a noun phrase not a sentence

[floral crescent]

YOU'RE RIGHT

thanks for cathcing that

you are the best

[urban fractal]

[smoky temple]

you can think of the li as 3rd person marker. thus you always need it but with mi and sina

analogy: 3rd person sg. marker -s in english

[rough isle]

and modified mi and sina are considered 3rd person as well, which isn't as weird as it might seem

[frank star]

Interesting… I guess it makes sense
I think that it’s also because there’s usually only one mi and one sina in a conversation, but an infinite amount of 3rd persons. If that makes sense

[rough isle]

yea, and also alot of sentences start with mi or sina, so it being shortened is natural

[frank star]

Yeah. Like x ala x is just x ala anu x, because why would you say not eating eatishly. And it’s a common way to write yes or no questions

[rough isle]

this is actually a common question format, theres a wiki page about it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-not-A_question

(me when i dont reed the whole reply, my saying it was common is redundant)

[frank star]

Oh I didn’t know it was an actual thing

Like I was saying that x ala anu x would be quite common so you can just drop the anu

[umbral stream]

because why would you say not eating eatishly
but that's not what it's saying, its just how we mark yes/no questions, the ala here is acting grammatically

maybe we want to move this to #learn-toki-pona-1?

[frank star]

Mm no? I understand how x ala x works and why people use it I just was unsure how it came about

[umbral stream]

wdym no

[frank star]

I mean the conversation doesn’t need to continue like I got all the information I need

[umbral stream]

ahh i see

[floral crescent]

my site is down

for now 👀

[visual oracle]

Suggestion: "can mean" -> can describe

[floral crescent]

see I would have to redo all the spacing....

(I migh do that good idea)

[floral crescent]

announcement; i’m trying it/its

[frank star]

Woah I am too and sometimes I forget

[floral crescent]

new domain WORKS http://lipamanka.gay/

[naive lava]

Woo!

[floral crescent]

currently checking with one of my blind friends to make sure https://lipamanka.gay/resources/dictionary is screen reader accessible (it was out of order and I got some good tips, I recommend other people like actually talk to people who rely on screen readers when trying to make things accessible lol it's like the bare minimum)

I am also paying faer

[floral crescent]

if you have any SVGs with text on your sites ping me and i can help you make them accessible to screen readers! I know how to do that now!

(it's kinda tedious though and my site is completely backwards at the moment, therefore not accessible. but I'll fix that another day. there are a lot of different objects in this svg that are text that need to be in order, which isn't true for a lot of other svgs)

[floral crescent]

FUCK I DIDNT PUT THINK UNDER TOKI IN MY RESOURCE

AAAAAA

I ALRWADY LAMINATED LIKE 40 COPIES OF IT

[vernal ore]

but the button is still broken 😔

[floral crescent]

true

[winged brook]

good button. 11/10, would click again

[raven ibex]

sina isipin ala e ni lon tenpo pini

[urban fractal]

you should put think under toki pilin sona alasa and utala

[raven ibex]

and thinking under mu

(this is a half joke. i do mu while i'm thinking, but i don't think it makes sense to put thinking in the definition of mu.)

[floral crescent]

i want to avoid connecting anything besides fighting with utala

just because of inherent metaphor built into the way we talk about things

[urban fractal]

i think solving a challenge is a type of struggle/fight

hm idk if im explaining it well

but there are cases where utala works for thinking about something

anyway not including it in utala is fine

[umbral stream]

yeah i think utala can refer to metaphorical challenges as well

er, struggle is a better word

[floral crescent]

yeah sure

but english has a lot of idioms about methods of communication being framed as fighting and that influences the way we communicate

and i don’t want that to bleed over to toki pona

[urban fractal]

this is really true

[vernal ore]

where did trnassexxual go😢

[undone crescent]

here

[floral crescent]

KLJSKDLJF

AMAZING

[vernal ore]

incredible

[floral crescent]

I'm planning on six of these

and then I'll figure out how I can get them printed on a very long piece of paper that I can get laminated

okay it's coming together

I have a large enough chunk for transitive verbs

[leaden cradle]

this is gonna be such a wonderful resource omgomg

[floral crescent]

update

[leaden cradle]

ewewew why that shape

[floral crescent]

why NOT

whatever 🙄

[floral crescent]

I made it kala now are u happy

[leaden cradle]

oh thats fun

[floral crescent]

(not keeping it)

[leaden cradle]

👍

[floral crescent]

here's how it's going rn

I added a small particle rundown so that people can reference the particles

in the final resource this is not going to be opposite of the toki pona vocabulary v1 sheet because

uh

oh right

so people can reference both without flipping back and forth

[leaden cradle]

mhm

[floral crescent]

join vc rn

nwo

now

now

@leaden cradle

never mind >:(

[leaden cradle]

aaaa im here

😭

[floral crescent]

OKAY NO

W

NOW

not no

now

join

vc

now

@leaden cradle

now

@leaden cradle NO NOT THAT VC

[floral crescent]

thanks to @leaden cradle for the advice

[leaden cradle]

😌

[floral crescent]

okay update

[hushed gorge]

im going to use a time machine to learn toki pona using this resources instead of however i did it first

[floral crescent]

SO REAL

[floral crescent]

yep !

i’m going to plug linja sike somewhere on it

[frank star]

linja sike?

do you mean linja lipamanka

[floral crescent]

lmao

and yes i did mean linja lipamanka

[frank star]

maybe the real linja was the friends we made along the way

[floral crescent]

@leaden cradle

[dull sigil]

SO true

[floral crescent]

(the sonja lang wedding thing is a joke)

[floral crescent]

colors

[leaden cradle]

ew im in the orange section

[floral crescent]

okay i’ll remove you 🙂

from the infographic 🙂

[frank star]

sipije should be on the infographic somewhere

[leaden cradle]

🤬

[floral crescent]

mayhaps

[frank star]

Especially if this is the strategy

[floral crescent]

true…

[floral crescent]

estou TRABALHANDO

I feel like I'm forgetting at least one thing

[rough isle]

I guess mentioning the content word interpretation of the prep words too?

But thats a good explanation

[floral crescent]

those usages are in the vocab sheet

plus if I want to teach nuance like that the best way to do it is with the other part of the course, which is mostly puzzle solving and developing patters by translating

still working on it

[floral crescent]

LIPAMANKA PI FONT ALA

this channel is now for my things that aren’t my font

[blissful crag]

@floral crescent only note is that having a "common misconceptions" bit is bad educational style
they haven't even made the misconceptions yet :P
try to identify the thing causing the misconception and change or avoid that, instead of naming the misconception
weirdly enough, telling somebody not to do something will make them learn to do that thing
educational psychology is wack, a a

[floral crescent]

[blissful crag]

wait i cannot read the sheet. are tose Language misconceptions or like, Meta misconceptions

[floral crescent]

very incomplete but this is what I have so far

the misconseptions are "toki pona isn't a real language" "you can't communicate complex concepts" stuff like that

so meta I guess?

I'm not gonna have stuff like "LON DOESN'T MEAN YES!" on here

I'm just gonna teach questions without mentioning that lon means yes

[blissful crag]

oh yeah these are fine
bc these are targeting misconceptions people would have almost as soon as hearing about toki pona
i was thinking of like, misconceptions about toki pona's grammat

yeet fair enough

ok i go bed or discord (company) will haunt me when im awaakr

awake