LIPAMANKA PI FONT ALA

[floral crescent]

hm what about a hatrack

palisa!

[leaden cradle]

mhm mhm

[floral crescent]

anything li ken jo e things, but some words have jo as part of their central meaning

[leaden cradle]

the tree or the hatrack can be tomo if i feel like ascribing some level of animacy to the ornaments or the hats

i feel like im more likely to do that to the hats

[floral crescent]

it could!

[leaden cradle]

theres also an element to tomo of "this thing belongs here"

[thin granite]

it's not always sarcastic, but here's a pretty good explanation of what it is, along with the emoji itself

[leaden cradle]

mi to my moku: "tomo sina li insa mi" yea yea

mama mi telling mi to clean up my room: "supa anpa li tomo len ala"

[floral crescent]

one of my forms will be about this!

actually. multiple

[thin granite]

well atcually it's just :snowflake: but still mostly accurate

[leaden cradle]

epic

[thin granite]

anyway uh gn sina tu o :)
(well techincally i never go to sleep for another hour bc that's how much time we have off screens before sleep in our household, but for all intents and purposes, i am asleep)

[floral crescent]

sleep well :)

[leaden cradle]

i have screentime turned off in my house too so i get it

lape pona

[thin granite]

mi o lape pona

mi tawa :)

[floral crescent]

i have bad memories from limited screen time no wait those memories are locked away

[leaden cradle]

would you ever call your wheelchair your noka?

[maiden light]

a musi

I think of crutches or canes as more likely to be a noka personally.

[leaden cradle]

interesting!

[maiden light]

@runic maple I know you don't use a mobility aid, but do you have any thoughts possibly?

[floral crescent]

the wheels of the wheelchair are the noka of the wheelchair

innit

ye

[maiden light]

accent intensifies

[floral crescent]

though i am not a wheelchair user so i wouldn’t know

guess it’s not my call to make

[floral crescent]

im cocon with one of the brits

[maiden light]

a a ni li Steven ala Steven?

(pilin la mi sona ala e Brits ante sina)

[floral crescent]

no it’s mark with a k

[maiden light]

a ni

[floral crescent]

yep

[maiden light]

I know jan Lakuse has a yellow cane that they use sometimes(?), just because I've been called Lakuse's yellow cane before (palisa jelo).

a a

[tacit totem]

I’m almost done
i rlly wish my brain would shut up

[floral crescent]

dw about it take your time

all of these forms will be open for a very long time

[tacit totem]

thanks

[floral crescent]

true

wow... it worked...

[blissful crag]

can't beat mun
good ol mun

you thought i'd search san but i DIDN'T

[floral crescent]

san is way less

but also it's in my name too so you can't have me beat

kekan is only 329

[blissful crag]

doesn't matter i'm mun

watch this

you can manipulate the search results really hard btw

mostly bc discord is Bad

[floral crescent]

you do have access to more channels than me

try lipamanka

also I'm mun too

[urban fractal]

wow there are less mentions of seli than mun

14989

[floral crescent]

I think I kinda universally win

I even have nata beat

[hushed gorge]

gg

[rocky urchin]

can't beat

[amber bough]

how about a

[rocky urchin]

wawa

[sand marsh]

space wins

[amber bough]

i love space

[leaden cradle]

my headnoun wins

[amber bough]

ting?? that's and pinGo aaa

[raven ibex]

wile lukin

[floral crescent]

a a a

[runic maple]

it would make sense for crutches or canes to be an ilo noka, mi la
i don't know what thoughts you'd like related to toki pona from a disabled perspective; i'd have to think more

thanks for the ping!

noka sina li balling /ref

[maiden light]

pona (:

[floral crescent]

WOW

[maiden light]

wawa. sina open toki tawa jan lon tenpo seme?

[floral crescent]

idk

later

[maiden light]

pona

[floral crescent]

https://forms.gle/WziwDrGp9v6dBLXg9

[maiden light]

These are tough questions a a

[brave rune]

fr

"ah yes a form on gender i love gender "
"what is the meaning of life "

nah it's just gonna take longer than i thought

[rain lotus]

literally

[brave rune]

ok i filled it out with some relatively surface-level answers but whateva

[floral crescent]

BASED

[polar charm]

I feel like I lied to this form, am actually questioning but I filled out this form as if I'm not nah I lied, I'm quite certain am enby, this form made me question it

btw, where scroll?

I didn't responded to the poll but I didn't know I would like filling such form and am subscribing now

[floral crescent]

no idea

the mods aren't done making the role accessible

[simple magnet]

finished the form finally

[sand marsh]

i haven’t thought about gender in ages that was hard

[urban fractal]

AAAAAAA
i was trying to get it to work before and couldn’t and didn’t bother to count how many reactions were already there

thank you but also i am

[floral crescent]

ah

I did notice there were 20 reacts already lol

[urban fractal]

i just kinda eyeballed it and thought “yeah thats less than 20 probably” and then never thought about it again

[floral crescent]

sldkfjlskdj

[simple magnet]

omg same
especially since i'm agender so I have no feeling of what it's like

[umbral stream]

i put a story into my response that i think i have only told like 2 other people before lol
not that i dont want to share it its just i realized i havent had an appropriate opportunity to share

[floral crescent]

I see

[floral crescent]

should I keep the story private? I'm going to keep indivisual stories and personal info when it comes to gender form private by default

[umbral stream]

nah i put it in the form so you could use it
its kinda interesting but not really that interesting yk

[floral crescent]

yes

I feel like dreams are kind of an altered state of conciousness

for some people

[umbral stream]

i only remember like two dreams a month at most a a

[floral crescent]

for me I get very strong dissociative amnesia surrounding them so like I have them and then the memories get locked away...

[umbral stream]

for me like most of the time its like i go to sleep and the boom i'm awake, not even an inbetween for me to remember

[floral crescent]

for me it's almost like a black out, and I know that time's passed but I'm not sure how much until I check

it feels like time passed

it feels like someone else fronted for a while while I was sleeping

[high marsh]

i think i typed for lke an hour

[floral crescent]

WOW

i can’t wait to read all the gender essays

[high marsh]

i feel like i didnt write THATmuch compared to time spent but its a topic i feel like i have to be pretty conscious of my wording with iykwim

[floral crescent]

i see

yes i do

[swift pecan]

That was neat

I dint think I gave satisfactory answers for all the questions

But I did my best

[floral crescent]

this is not true i remembered three separate dreams from last night and they were all very cool and fun

[sour girder]

thread join

[normal hearth]

I barely ever experience dreams bc when I was a kid I was so scared of getting nightmares (bc I accidentally found a cupcakes mlp animaton and it scarred me) that I invented a ritual in my thoughts that would mean my brain is simply Not Allowed to give me nightmares and Id do it before sleeping every night and it worked but it also made me stop having regular dreams

now I only have dreams once every couple months or so

[floral crescent]

dream form coming soon???

[sour girder]

i basically never have dreams except if i nap/snooze alarm

but when i do theyre always really vivid and usually disturbing so L for me ig

[floral crescent]

i don’t get disturbing dreams i don’t think? or maybe that’s why i don’t remember most of them

[spare garnet]

i get very disturbing dreams

and i remember them in gruesome detail

[hushed gorge]

i like dreams

[raven ibex]

the kasi is a bunch of palisa, and the ornaments are attached with lupa
the ornaments are selo

[normal hearth]

I think the ornaments are sike or namako

[leaden cradle]

i would not call the hooks lupa nor the ornaments selo

[echo lion]

The ornaments are kili

[spiral spoke]

woah kili,,

[floral crescent]

kili a

[floral crescent]

two more forms in the work!

(they're both about animacy partially, but I'm going to try to be a bit subtle about that)

(oh I added jo and lawa to Containment and Ownership)

I also have this one planned for far in the future, though tbh I might leave a lot of this up to an interview with @winged brook if I do

this one's kind of a far fetched idea for the time being

I have enough ideas for a month though rn so I'm glad it seems to be working out!

[urban fractal]

jo is a sense word 😎

[floral crescent]

other ideas that I'm making forms for

• what is toki pona for you?
• what is pona?
  I've already done similar things but I want to do it again now that my sample size is around 80+

and I JUST STARTED so

nanpa li kama suli

[floral crescent]

save it for your form response! or talk about it before hand! this kind of stuff is good!

[urban fractal]

the relationship between the subject and object can be grouped into 4 categories

1. subject causes a change in state for object
2. subject gives some thing to the object, physically or metaphorically, but it is not an inherent quality of object
3. subject performs and action that affects object in a way more complicated than just adding a quality or thing
4. the subject is affected, the object may or not may be, all the object does is exist in some way to the subject

all sense words are 4, and so is jo

[spare garnet]

what is a sense word

[urban fractal]

lukin kute pilin, also sona olin jo

the first three are the normal ones that give them the name “sense word”, the others are the funky ones

[polar charm]

hmm, is unpa a sense word?

[urban fractal]

it necessarily affects the object so no

[polar charm]

i see

[floral crescent]

can you justify the utility of this system of lables?

I don't think anything's worth writing about if it's just labels with no utility or depth of knowledge

that's what these forms are for - I'm gonna learn more!

[urban fractal]

they determine what sort of rephrasings you can use and how the object is affected

and are a result of the common patterns that content words change in

[floral crescent]

can you give four examples?

or more

and can you think of any exceptions? or anything that's in between or ambiguous?

it could be a gradient

[urban fractal]

1. pona ike nasa musi lape moli awen
2. poki len luka noka selo nimi nasin
3. moku lawa unpa
4. lukin kute pilin sona olin jo

examples

if this is what you meant

[floral crescent]

exmaples of using them in rephrasing

can u make an infographic

[urban fractal]

S li V e O becomes

1. S li kama e ni: O li V
2. V ((pi) S) li (kama) lon O (tan S) / S li pana e V tawa O
3. (no one way of rephrasing)
4. O li lon V (pi) S

jo might actually become ijo in the rephrasing. maybe it’s like, the vaguest sense word. the ijo.

[polar charm]

oh wow, this is interesting

[floral crescent]

those aren't examplessssss

combine examples number one and examples number twooooo

[urban fractal]

it’s like 20 examples you just have to find and replace 👀

[floral crescent]

nooooo

NOOOOOOO

I'm better at examples than u tbh skill issue

maybe it's my role to read ur stuff and distill it down into liquid gold that learners can use

what do u think

[urban fractal]

mi pona e tomo -> tomo li kama pona tan mi
sina luka e lawa mi -> luka sina li lon lawa mi
akesi li moku e pipi -> pipi li kama pakala li kama ko lon uta akesi
jan li sona e mun -> mun li lon sona jan

the third one is always the weird one /latin

[floral crescent]

pi pona e ijo la mi kama e ni -> ijo li pona
poki mi li kama lon noka tan mi la mi pana e poki tawa noka (what?)
I think I need exmaples lol

ah

hmmmm

I think based on what I can tell this is kinda wait hold up don't you have to get up in less than two hours

girl

get ur beauty rest

time to stop being interesting

pi regroups modifiers

mi and sina are the exceptions to the li rule

[urban fractal]

mi wile ala lape

[floral crescent]

la puts the context before the main sentence

[urban fractal]

mi and sina are conjugations of li

[floral crescent]

ona means "he" "she" "it" and "they"

[floral crescent]

you're not allowed to speak

shhh

olin means "love"

sinpin means "wall" and "face"

supa means "table" or "chair"

or other furniture

etc

basically

a sock is a len noka

a rug is a len anpa

[urban fractal]

[floral crescent]

shut up be quiet

[urban fractal]

[floral crescent]

and a microphone is an ilo kalama but headphones are ilo kute

totally can't be the other way around

pimeja means black

suno means sun

[urban fractal]

no

[floral crescent]

mun means moon or stars

[urban fractal]

pimeja means dark color

[floral crescent]

no

it means black

shush

[urban fractal]

its not like english where white and black have to be like 99% pure to count as the color word

it just has to be close

brown is pimeja

[floral crescent]

wrong

incorrect

[urban fractal]

pink is walo

explode

[floral crescent]

lon means "yes"

[urban fractal]

explode

explode

explode

[floral crescent]

pink is "loje walo" or "walo loje"

go to sleep

[urban fractal]

EXACTLY
IT’S WALO YOU JUST SAID IT
WALO ||LOJE||

[floral crescent]

you need sleep! more important than gonig to school

[floral crescent]

no it's walo loje

[urban fractal]

EXPLODE

[floral crescent]

sleep in tomorrow

lape means sleep

supa lape is a bed

[urban fractal]

i should stay awake and just not sleep until after school

[floral crescent]

toki ponists confuse their desks for their beds just like YOU ARE RIGHT NOW GO TO YOUR BED AND LIE DOWN IN IT RIGHT NOW /threat /I know where you live

[floral crescent]

I used to do this a lot and it wasn't the worst but getting rest is much better

not sleeping at all means that you'll get there on time

I however need to go to sleep

soon

[urban fractal]

ough

[floral crescent]

if there's no lipamanka there's no fun (you know it's true I bring the party)

[urban fractal]

real

[floral crescent]

new poll #912286596517220363

[maiden light]

jo...

Does joing not affect objects?

I haven't thought about it since I don't use jo.

[urban fractal]

it depends on how you use jo

[sour girder]

interesting how do you get around this

what if you wanted to say like. i acquire book

[urban fractal]

X li jo e Y is basically just Y li lon tawa X

well not always tawa but like some relation to lon

lipu li kama tawa mi

lipu li kama lon luka mi

mi kama lawa e lipu

(lawa ~ own)

mi kama e lipu

(tv kama ~ retrieve, summon, bring)

[maiden light]

mi kama esun e lipu
mi kama e lipu tawa mi
lipu li kama lon mi
It would probably be one of these, or something similar

I think I'm both jon't and anun't really.

[floral crescent]

i’m changing “lawa wawa li toki sama” to “lawa sama li toki wawa”

[rough isle]

a ni li pona, taso kalama pi lawa wawa li musi a

[floral crescent]

pona

[floral crescent]

i’m so excited about this PROJECT

i’m still excited just now it’s too HOT

literally

it has to be cold

why is it HOT

:(

i blame the ‘tism.

fuck autism ruining my life, it’s totally autism’s fault not society’s

it’s less than 40 FARENHIGHT here but i’m inside

ye ik i was doing a bit

[tame adder]

a a when i use custom emojis on servers without them i have like, pinned items on my clipboard managers which are just links to emoji images the same size as they would normally :>

[rain lotus]

based on what we’ve complied from the poll data, a new form will come out every fifth day

hopefully the mods get that role thing figured out by then

[rain lotus]

new forms coming out every monday and thursday i decided

[proven brook]

mi very much pilin sama

[rain lotus]

me too actually

starting to come around to nimisin

theyre not that bad

[tame adder]

when are you hoping to get the first form out?

(i'm planning to fix the roles taso ona li kepeken tenpo)

(the only thing stopping me from fixing the roles is how much i want to work on my website i think i'll put that aside and just do the roles tonight a a)

[floral crescent]

i have four forms out already lol

fifth form comes out today

[sour girder]

form reveal

[floral crescent]

new form comes out every monday and thursday

[floral crescent]

fifth form comes out in like a bit

[hushed gorge]

are the polls pinned anywhere?

[floral crescent]

in kama sona in the LIPAMANKA FORM channel

they're also all my most recent posts on reddit

https://forms.gle/FsL84mFhMi4QGH1MA new FORM (this one is BIG)

if you fill out any form please fill this one out

[hushed gorge]

oh great good to know

[hasty steeple]

omg thats so form

[maiden light]

wawa a, I could spend over an hour on the form from what the questions look like a a.

[floral crescent]

do it tbh

the longer the answers the better

[sour girder]

i would love to answer it rn but unfortunately (for nintendo) i have just installed botw on my steam deck

[echo lion]

My favorite part of each form is forgetting my tag and copying it from my profile page

[floral crescent]

answer later !!

[floral crescent]

LOL

[normal hearth]

saame, I really suck at memorizing strings of numbers

[hasty steeple]

this omg i changed my discord tag and the number changed and now i have to look every time

[floral crescent]

ping me if you would like to apply to join my secret team of form reviewers

I can take up to nine ppl

[maiden light]

@floral crescent ping

[floral crescent]

hello I will now ask you questions that I need to ask you to make sure you are a good fit

okay I have finished doing that

welcome to the team

[maiden light]

a a

[rough isle]

@floral crescent i can prolly do some

[floral crescent]

hello I will now ask you questions that I need to ask you to make sure you are a good fit

question number one are u tonsi enough

[rough isle]

I dont know what gender is

[floral crescent]

are u tall enough

[rough isle]

Im almost 6 foot

[floral crescent]

you gotta be at least 4'3"

oh wow you're definitely tall enough

okay welcome to tha team

[rough isle]

pona

mi kulupu

[maiden light]

a a a

[cosmic blade]

@floral crescent What are you looking for exactly for this secret team?

[floral crescent]

mostly people who I know

I do not know you I don't think

[cosmic blade]

If you do I'm confused as to how

[floral crescent]

ye

people in the team will help me review the form responses

[blissful crag]

@floral crescent 1. i was the first to sign up to help with reviewing form responses and we already discussed this days ago
2. where are all the forms? can you collect them in one ez access post and pin them

[floral crescent]

1. true
2. they're all pinned in my thread in the kama sona server except for two of them which are available in the community creations channel

also welcoem to the team

[blissful crag]

2. wanna put them all in here too so we can pin those

[hasty steeple]

ping i think i already asked to do this in a poll i can't remember tho

[floral crescent]

like in a bit

ye

[floral crescent]

hello I will now ask you questions that I need to ask you to make sure you are a good fit

have u ever made slime

[hasty steeple]

yes

[floral crescent]

follow up question what type of slime

[hasty steeple]

idk it was before different slime recipes were a thing

[floral crescent]

i see follow up question was this during the summer or the winter

[hasty steeple]

neither it was autumn

[floral crescent]

hmmm thinking outside the box i like it okay follow up question how is your posture

[hushed gorge]

@floral crescent hi i'd like to try helping with cool form feviewing

[hasty steeple]

it is ok except when im tired

[floral crescent]

okay i have some questions

[hushed gorge]

hit me with it

[floral crescent]

nice welcome to the team

[hasty steeple]

thamk

[floral crescent]

question number one have you ever eaten fish

[hushed gorge]

ye

[floral crescent]

fascinating okay question number two have you ever been inside a jewish temple

[hushed gorge]

i have not :(

[floral crescent]

unfortunate anyway question number four (right?) you have the right political opinions right also the second part of this question is what languages do you speak

[hushed gorge]

im not sure if i have political opinions and the second part of this answer is i speak english and toki pona and thats it

[floral crescent]

okay welcome to the team

i’m gonna make a gc later

[hushed gorge]

yay

[floral crescent]

unless someone else wants to make one !

[hushed gorge]

idk who all else is

[floral crescent]

scroll up!

[hushed gorge]

i mean is there anybody else that's double-secret

[floral crescent]

oh yeah rats

[gloomy shale]

mu

[floral crescent]

sina ken lon kulupu

[gloomy shale]

mi ale li lon kulupu lon tenpo pona ni

[floral crescent]

wawa

[maiden light]

oh yeah rats! /exclamation

[floral crescent]

so true

[hushed gorge]

that's how i read it at first lol

[urban fractal]

meow

[floral crescent]

welcome to da group

[leaden cradle]

bloop

[floral crescent]

yay another cool person

how many am i at

[hushed gorge]

theres a lot of cool people now that i think about it

[floral crescent]

okay right

there are eight helpers

someone make a gc

[hushed gorge]

o kay

[floral crescent]

plus me also i think

[hushed gorge]

yea

oh you need to have people friended to make a gc with them

[floral crescent]

okay i’ll try

[hushed gorge]

i did make this

BananaTreeLabs#2074
Ober#9715
gregdan3#0042
duck#7837
ELEGY_990#4250
lipamanka#2222
tbodt#7244
Th3Scribble#6810
Temmie Mew#1212```

[rough isle]

Thats me

[sand marsh]

i answered the form ;-; thinking is hard and speaking is harder

[echo lion]

What does reviewing mean in this context

[floral crescent]

you will read and discuss the answers to polls descriptively

only one slot left

or i guess i could make a server but i don’t wanna

also nine helpers is good enough

[echo lion]

pona

[floral crescent]

but rn i have eight helpers

which is also fine

but i do have room for one more

actually there might not be room for one more

[floral crescent]

okay there is room!

[undone crescent]

harrowing
and you said this is going to be a thing twice a week? how am I meant to answer this without spending a year or two between each?
(I totally sent this in the right channel the first time)

[floral crescent]

lol

you can take your time tbh there’s no huge rush

[floral crescent]

you also don’t have to fill all of them out but ur super cool so if you did that would be pretty cool

[floral crescent]

essay idea: what makes a good proverb?
essencially this is a very unfinished thought but I think a good tp proverb should be profound in the sense that it can refer to multiple ideas and you can mediate on that. that's why "lawa sama li toki wawa" is better than "lawa wawa li toki sama." the first one calls into mind the ideas of sameness being powerful, the second one says that that powerful things are the same (? which is kinda weird) right maybe idk I might be overthinking it but there's something here

[floral crescent]

https://forms.gle/fetngMwVZsj8uZaPA

after this i will probably go weekly

[modest remnant]

submitted a whole heck of thoughts to your form

[ashen loom]

I have a question: I did answer the form but I did so while not signed in to a google account. Will my answers still be received?

I hope it'll still be received nonetheless, and lipamanka gets to read that part of my answers where I ramble about how I'm not quite sure if a bathroom stall is tomo enough for me to be a tomo

[ionic axle]

these forms are really fun to fill

I'll be answering something and right at the end realize something I never thought of before

I don't usually think about the words this deeply, so it's a nice thing to do

I still haven't submitted mine yet because I didn't really have the time to, and typing on a phone is horrible I hate it

[floral crescent]

it was received

[floral crescent]

this is my goal lol

i’m not gonna do any interviews until after i’m done with all the forms actually because of that

[echo lion]

a i was wondering if the forms replaced the interviews to some degree

Guess that answers it

[normal hearth]

oh boy this ones gonna take me a while

[floral crescent]

i hope it’s enjoyable

[normal hearth]

Ive used the phrase "core lupa-ness" which is. something

it is enjoyable its just also a lot of thinking to be doing at near midnight

[floral crescent]

true

feel free to do it like tomorrow lol

this one has been getting far fewer responses than the last one though

i assume that it’s because i did them too soon one after another

[normal hearth]

then Id have to go through a whole day of school though n I dont feel like doing that

[floral crescent]

whatever works best

[normal hearth]

ah wait nvm we have an extra long break tomorrow. Ill go sleep I think

[floral crescent]

based

[echo lion]

In my opinion this form felt more mentally demanding. It takes a lot of thought to thoroughly describe a word’s semantic space, and the form asks ppl to do that a handful of times. I enjoyed it but that might explain the lower rate

[floral crescent]

true

i will try to be more narrow in scope next time

gender form is at 107

much more than i needed

[floral crescent]

when i end up redoing a lot of my earlier forms in like a year i’ll make sure to break this one up

[leaden cradle]

im just taking my time on this one

did the first two and a half today and will do more tomorrow

[crimson kite]

mi lon ilo suli la mi fill out the lupa etc. form.

[normal hearth]

IT DELETED MY ANSWERS

matbe I should not have doneit without wifi where it cant save anything

welp. I have screenshots of some of my answers Ill try to redo it later

anways what I also wanted to mention is that this form made me think about how likely I am to read any given word as metaphorical n now I kind of want to make a scale from abstract to concrete n place all the words on it

[ashen loom]

PONA A!!!

[leaden cradle]

finished the tomo section and had a REALIZATION in the middle of it

tomo makes sense now!!!!!

my answers here are not as thoughtfully worded as the what is toki pona to you form im kinda just throwing up examples and finding logic to tie them together

[ionic axle]

I have unearthed a secret toki pona calque (not really though, just musi)

I'll be finishing this later

[leaden cradle]

i want to hear about the secret musi calque

👀

[floral crescent]

y’all i wrote a huge ramble about lupa on the plane @urban fractal i’ll post it soon when i can sit down on my laptop 💻

[maiden light]

pona a

[floral crescent]

2k words

basically @urban fractal and i were both right but we were each missing the other part of the puzzle: each other. only together could the two of us

it IS. a ramble

[maiden light]

a a

[brave rune]

why kulupu isn't needed: kili can mean "bushel of apples" (trolling)

[floral crescent]

true

[modest remnant]

why kili isn't needed: kulupu can mean "bushel of apples"

[floral crescent]

https://lipamanka.github.io/essays/lupa?a

[leaden cradle]

REALIZATION

selo is very related to awen but also to weka

even though awen and weka are sometimes seen as "opposites"

i suppose this is because selo awen e one thing and weka e another in a lot of cases

but some selo are implemented with awening in mind and others are built to weka

[modest remnant]

do you think of keeping something out as weka-ing it or awen-ing it?

[leaden cradle]

weka

like a bike helmet is a selo for awening e lawa but an umbrella is a selo for wekaing e telo

[floral crescent]

cool

[brave rune]

very nice i love this

[floral crescent]

falling asleep ish now

[modest remnant]

interesting
yeah I guess for repel/deflect something that's probably weka for me

[brave rune]

"if a hollow space is sealed shut inside of something, is that space a lupa? Now THAT’S a question." topologically, yes. I'm pretty sure it's called a 4th dimensional hole (but it might be third)

[modest remnant]

but I think of like, an intact boat hull as awening the water, not wekaing it

[floral crescent]

it does borh

it awen wekas e the telo

[brave rune]

i might be misremembering this feel free to correct me

[brave rune]

LIES

powe fr!!!

powe toki but no powe lape ;) 😔😔

[leaden cradle]

thats weka for me

[modest remnant]

when patching a leak as well?

[leaden cradle]

well when i patch a leak im ponaing the selo so it can better weka e telo

[modest remnant]

fair

I immediately think that I must awen the incoming water

though I guess weka also works

weka the water

awen the process of water coming in

[brave rune]

personally i just moku e ona

[leaden cradle]

hhh if i awen the process of water coming in, to me that means i keep the water coming

awen does not mean "pause" for me thats a pini thing

[modest remnant]

ah fair valid

I guess I was thinking of the water not-moving

pini does work better for concluding the ingress of water

also to pini the lupa

I guess yeah awen is like, preserve the status quo

awen/ante opposites

[spare garnet]

i would say an umbrella or a boat hull both awen tan telo

umbrella li awen e mi tan telo. ona li ni tan weka telo
boat li awen e mi tan telo. ona li ni tan awen telo

[modest remnant]

selo mi li jo ala e telo. ilo li awen e ni.

[bold tide]

why not both? mi awen weka e telo = i keep away the water

[polar charm]

nasa a

[leaden cradle]

nn "keep away" there feels like a calque

[floral crescent]

I feel like it works

shuns mu Temi

[leaden cradle]

i feel like theres a difference between "keep away" and "keep away-ing"

[floral crescent]

true true maybe

idk I still think it could work but I don't wanna like think too hard abt it

[leaden cradle]

i suppose it could work but its not analyzed as "keep = awen, away = weka"

[floral crescent]

I guess

[modest remnant]

Causative, mi [awen weka] e telo, I cause the telo to continue being away?

Delayed blast preverb

[floral crescent]

hm. i DO AXTUALLY use transitive preverbs like that

[urban fractal]

oh nice i was just writing something abt this in sona musi

[visual oracle]

I've done that before I think

[echo lion]

I don’t use preverbs like that, i’d rephrase to mi awen e weka telo

[echo lion]

Hmm on closer inspection i think i do use preverbs like this, but it doesn’t translate well to english which tripped me up

[hushed gorge]

i read the lupa ramble last night and i know i had a cool idea about it but it was super late and i was dead tired and dont remember it so you're just going to have to trust that it was cool and interesting

[strong bramble]

i believe to

you

[floral crescent]

I do believe you /super duper genuine

@urban fractal did you read my lupa rambles yet

[visual oracle]

I also have seen your lupas

[floral crescent]

based

[leaden cradle]

today i finished rambling about selo

len is gonna be a big one i really really like len

[floral crescent]

oh god are these gonna be long

amazing

[winged brook]

I have not

[winged brook]

now I have

TL;DR - lupa = uta, uta > lupa

[leaden cradle]

yes. very.

[visual oracle]

@floral crescent o, is there a page that indexes your single-word pages like the lupa one

on your website it seems like the main pages/dictionary project aren't all cross linked necessarily

I feel like there was more than just the lupa one?

[floral crescent]

lupa is my only single word page

[visual oracle]

oh ok

[floral crescent]

oh that and pona

[visual oracle]

ty

[floral crescent]

@rocky urchin

i joined another rat emoji bank server with flags

[floral crescent]

yes they don't have an aboriginal flag one

which is unfortunate

[young moat]

not yet ,

[floral crescent]

thinking about this

and how COOL my professor is

thinking about u

[visual oracle]

sitelen sina li pona

[floral crescent]

new form dropping tomorrow

hint: start thinking about long things

[polar charm]

palisa!

or linja

[floral crescent]

you'll see

[floral crescent]

https://forms.gle/s9DQJzemtwErjgYe9
new form !

[modest remnant]

submitted my palinja opinions

[polar charm]

palisa are kiwen but long

[leaden cradle]

palisa are ||kiwen but|| long 👍

[frank star]

I liked that form

I felt like I gave some good responses this time

[umbral jackal]

palisa ||are|| k||iw||en b||ut|| long

[brave rune]

linjamanka

[sly pasture]

palisamanka

[normal hearth]

10 minute montage of me trying to spell sausage on the hot dog question

[floral crescent]

sdlkfjsld

[floral crescent]

@essays lipamanka

despair

[echo lion]

[blissful crag]

<@&1061183612709515354>

[hushed gorge]

Wait, ma pona has no :spair:?

[blissful crag]

nope, none spair

[hushed gorge]

Tragic

[blissful crag]

that was an innovation made by several other communities

now we have too much bureaucracy here to keep up with the times

||this is a joke||

[hushed gorge]

Don't worry you're still hip and trendy

[blissful crag]

it's true, we even have-

[blissful crag]

wait
white
with lawn
and suburban

[blissful crag]

i love this one so much

[hushed gorge]

Oops I didn't mean to send that I was just trying to look at the name

[leaden cradle]

every time i see someone use lawn i get so happy

[hushed gorge]

It's a good joke

[blissful crag]

:D

[leaden cradle]

hehehe contributing to the community :3

[floral crescent]

woah

essay role ping thing

[tame adder]

wait i didn't know this sticker existed it's so good

oh it's so good

[hushed gorge]

It gets better every time I look at it

[floral crescent]

hmmmwhat if my book had an analysis of pu

or what if i made an analysis of pu

like you know how some pocket torahs have tons of footnotes on everything

that but for pu

it’ll be at least twice as thick!

[modest remnant]

then it would be a lipu pu

[floral crescent]

okay i’ve compiled and made bookmarks in pu for every page where a methodology that describes changing between parts of speech is used

i’m gonna make a chart maybe?

my goal is to analyze agents and patients in toki pona and see if i can get at the nuance behind “there’s no passive voice in toki pona”

[urban fractal]

no way im gonna let you snipe me finishing my pu PoS analysis

im gonna make it tomorrow

fuck i need to reacquire pu

[floral crescent]

i found something really cool

[floral crescent]

too late i’m hyperfixating

[urban fractal]

[floral crescent]

okay so

lookie here

this is REALLY COOL

if you take say a noun and then apply every single transformation to it in order all the things still mean ko!

or are uses of ko!

is what i would have said until we got to the last one

now i think i need to do more digging

[urban fractal]

i don’t know if that many levels of derivation really works

[floral crescent]

well as i mentioned the last one doesn’t but the rest do

[urban fractal]

some combinations probably don’t work
like “make OBJ be of X” is one that i don’t think really works except by proxy of “use X on OBJ”

[floral crescent]

okay i’ve found some errors in my model and i will fix them

the V -> A thing seems to work when the head it’s modifying is jan but jan was the only example given directly in pu

wait no

i misread

okay the problem with my model is still with V->A but it’s not pu’s fault i just missed where it uses tomo moku as an example

[urban fractal]

moku V > N > A

of eating

tho actually “of” isn’t really the same thing as N > A
maybe

[floral crescent]

pu directly says it is

[urban fractal]

pu is funky with wording sometimes

[floral crescent]

or says it’s similar to it at least

“a second noun can also fill the role of an adjective. this is similar to using the word “of” in english”

[urban fractal]

anyway the main implication of whether noun modifiers are nouns or become adjectives is mostly a classification thing the important bit is that that meaning distinctly does not do further derivations

[floral crescent]

it just means it’s an adjective, like in german the process would be turning the noun into a genitive right

[urban fractal]

i worded this so badly

[floral crescent]

you did lol what are you saying

the most i can get out of it is something i disagree with

anyway let me redo my analysis jdkskfjsjs i fixed some things

[urban fractal]

whether noun modifiers become adjectives or are still nouns is just a terminology thing
the important implication is that “of X” doesn’t go through further derivations

is what i meant to say

[floral crescent]

oh i’d like to point out that pu specifies two things for V -> N that are different: the act of doing the verb or something that the verb applies to

[urban fractal]

ye

[floral crescent]

i think this might be a result of A -> V and A -> N

like just how those work

[urban fractal]

found my chart

[floral crescent]

they both undo it

or like

[urban fractal]

some oddities here, like the existence of adverbs
and some derivations i didn’t list explicitly and instead analyzed as a compound derivation

[floral crescent]

N -> A -> N is just applying and getting rid of the thing that makes it function as a modifier

[urban fractal]

what would N>A>N do

“that which pertains to X”?

[floral crescent]

N -> A -> V is actually just proving that N -> V can also be “makes thing have the quality of N” which actually matches up with usage

[floral crescent]

that which holds the quality of being X

which is the same thing as X

[urban fractal]

hm
i don’t think “holds the quality of X” is one of the derivations

[floral crescent]

so if N(A(N)) = N

wait hold on

[floral crescent]

it is

[urban fractal]

i dont really understand what it means

[floral crescent]

some examples given in pu

[urban fractal]

oh

[floral crescent]

this is entirely consistent as far as i can tell

[urban fractal]

i would just say “that which is X”

the N>A>N thing is confusing bc of the N>A part

[floral crescent]

so let’s have the notation of N(X) is to change something into a noun, V(X) is to change it into a verb, and A(X) is to make something an adjective

[urban fractal]

there are multiple derivations though

like N(V) can be “the act of Xing” or “that which is Xed”

[floral crescent]

i think it’s because if you derive A(N) any more it undoes itself. at least if you drive it into N

[urban fractal]

what is N>A

[floral crescent]

yeah i still haven’t checked to see if both work all the time@

[floral crescent]

of

in the sense of “is related to”

[urban fractal]

“that which is related to X” isn’t the same as “X”

[floral crescent]

like very broad

[floral crescent]

that’s kind of misusing the derivation thing i think lemme figure out the words

N = noun
A(N) = of noun (that relates to noun)
N(A(N)) = the thing that is related to the noun

hm

this isn’t working let’s figure out why

i think it might be the english word choice is getting fucked up

[urban fractal]

some compound derivations arent allowed

[floral crescent]

“relate” is probably a bad term

[urban fractal]

its not an english thing

[floral crescent]

i don’t think so

i need to like keep trying out things tho

this is getting too verbose

let me try something new

[urban fractal]

suppose tomo is house
ijo tomo is all the stuff related to the house
these things can distinctly not be tomo themselves
tomo alone doesn’t really mean these things when you say “tomo li pona” or “ona li tomo”

[floral crescent]

i agree

i also agree that the problem is with the definition of A(N) (you mentioned that i think?)

just let me try a thing!

you might be right

[urban fractal]

i think A(N) is defined fine and makes sense
i just think it doesn’t work if you turn that adj meaning into anything else

also its not really an adjective
you cant use it as the head of a predicate

[floral crescent]

N = jan = humans
A(N) = related to humans (human as an adjective)
N(A(N)) = human thing

okay you’re right

[urban fractal]

wahoo

[floral crescent]

N(A(N)) breaks everything so it’s not allowed

but there are a lot of combinations

i wanna figure out if anything else isn’t allowed

or if anything is equal to anything else

if we can prove something is equal to something else we can make theorems that can help make these things faster to solve

and if anything breaks then we will map out better where this method can’t work

would u like to do this together otherwise i’m gonna do it

it’s math time

[urban fractal]

i think “cause to be” only works for pure adjectives and “use on” only works for pure nouns
“cause to be” can be extended to work with nouns but thats still not a compound derivation

[floral crescent]

my brain is also connecting this to a bunch of other stuff like i’m realizing that the way i have been writing my dictionary entries is so that everything is phrased as a noun and all the other meanings can be derived from it through this method. i think that charting out the derivation method will make a dictionary like that wayyy better

[urban fractal]

actually no, “use on” can be used with other stuff i think
but “quality of ADJ” and “action of VERB” (these might just be the same derivation but for adjs and verbs) dont work with it

[floral crescent]

maybe

can u use the notation i came up with so i can parse it faster bc i have a headache and i made the notation so this would be easier to process

never mind i took advil

i do like my notation tho

can you define your idea of “pure adjective”

[urban fractal]

i like the > notation bc it reads from beginning to end
tbh tho i havent been using any notation bc there are multiple derivations for each anyway

[urban fractal]

adjective from the base meaning

[floral crescent]

i see

[urban fractal]

like pona to mean good or lape to mean sleeping

[floral crescent]

but not ko to mean squishy?

or has ko been reanalyzed as an adjective

[urban fractal]

it depends on how you use ko

[floral crescent]

can N>A be “having the qualities of”

does this work or not work with other words

[urban fractal]

people use it that way maybe but it’s not in pu
maybe it’s a more specific type of “of or pertaining to” tho

[floral crescent]

bc if usage differs significantly enough from pu where that rule has consistently changed then it’s worth changing out model too

based in pu, useful for modern usage

[floral crescent]

this might also be true but the reason why i’m excited is because WE CAN FIND OUT

like we proved that N>A>N is not allowed under the pu definitions

we proved it with math

we’re doing MATH

IM SO FUCKING

WOW

[urban fractal]

for a description of pu id want to separate a description of pu from a description of common usage bc what patterns happen in common usage depends a lot on the speaker

[floral crescent]

are you excited

[urban fractal]

ye

[floral crescent]

are you just nodding along as i figure out stuff that you already knew or am i figuring out new stuff

genuinely wanna know

i am fine with EITHER

[urban fractal]

nodding along

[floral crescent]

jdjfkakfjd

so you’ve tried to do multi level derivation and apply these rules to common usage before?

[urban fractal]

i once charted out a bunch of compound derivations and whether they make sense and are used
but i stopped bc i lost track and my methodology was kinda eh

[floral crescent]

i’m just trying to be mathy about this in a way that past me could have understood from the ground up

like make this well enough understood to myself that i could feasibly teach it faster than it took me to figure out

IM DOJNG MATH

anyway what was i gonna do next

[floral crescent]

oh right back to this i wanna justify why i think it should be descriptive of common usage and use pu as a framework probably because as far as i can tell, the current derivation system seems really similar to pu’s but it also seems to differ a bit, so just analyzing how pu did it would not be very useful. if we analyze common use then we can apply this analysis to learning and teaching and make cool guides that are designed to be easier to understand

like if it’s just pu then we can’t use it to teach common use

right

[urban fractal]

oh found the thing i mentioend

this might be wrong in various ways

this is from early on

[floral crescent]

anyway either way i do still wanna analyze “has the qualities of N” for A>N because if it’s in use consistently then it should be part of the model

right

aaaaa my brain is SO HAPPY right now

[urban fractal]

id still do two analyses
“heres what pu says and heres the various ways that things have changed”

you can still hse pu as a framework

[floral crescent]

yes that’s what i’m saying

but if we use it to make resources we should use the common use one

[urban fractal]

perhaps

[floral crescent]

and i wanna make RESOURCES

jan Seli you’re a genius girl

MATH

[urban fractal]

[floral crescent]

lmao one of the other lipamanka’s is gonna have fun reading back all of this

i just realized i haven’t eaten in twelve hours

my adhd meds are wearing off

ITS WLECEN

ELEVEN

WHAT

IT WAS NINE LAST I CHECKED

WHAT

[urban fractal]

🗿

[floral crescent]

jan Seli help me

[urban fractal]

in what way

[floral crescent]

uhhh never mind you’ve been doing thing good okay uh i should eat something i’m in like intense physical pain

[urban fractal]

o moku

im gonna eep

https://tenor.com/view/he-died-cat-falling-over-cat-oof-rip-gif-25901051

[floral crescent]

okay

i guess i’ll just do the analysis then 😎

[urban fractal]

smh
im gonna write out my analysis before checking this channel

[floral crescent]

okay lol i will still give you most of the credit bc you had the idea first and gave me the idea anyway

i just had the energy to do the math

MATH

can you believe it

AND THE WIFI CAME BACK ON

so I can use my computer now

isntead of fucking

typing on my fucking phone

[hushed gorge]

Is your room actually as red as it looks in this picture

[floral crescent]

it's redder. I had flash on in that picture

having red light in my room I've found makes me sleepier

and also it's backed up by like science I'm pretty sure

[hushed gorge]

Hmm yeah I've heard about that it just seems like it would make reading really hard

discord please that sentence didn't make sense let me edit it

[floral crescent]

reading is already really hard

[hushed gorge]

C'mon did that message send immediately and I can't edit stuff

[hushed gorge]

Yeah fair

[floral crescent]

this is actually so exciting

I can use all of the logic to generate a perfect list of rules maybe that will be able to accurately predict what a word can mean in any position

[hushed gorge]

Oh wow that does sound really cool

I bet jan Mika would be excited about that (if she's still working on ilo Kukole, I haven't heard anything about it lately)

[floral crescent]

well she is Banished from this channel :P

I guess that's technically ambiguous

[hushed gorge]

Oh yeah... I wasn't sure if that was banishment from this channel as a whole or mostly just that conversation

[floral crescent]

N ko semisolid
V ko to apply a semisolid to something
N ko the act of applying a semisolid to something
does this work

can "ko" mean "the act of applying a semisolid to something"

[hushed gorge]

Not sure what the difference between that and "applying a semisolid to something" would be

[floral crescent]

"mi ko loje e tomo. ko ni li pona" "I apply ko to a house. this application is good"

[floral crescent]

one is a noun phrase and the other is a verb phrase

the noun phrase describes the act of performing the verb

I'm wondering if words can be used like this

and for ko at least, I parse ko as refering to the noun here

so I don't think it can?

[hushed gorge]

This looks fine to me

[floral crescent]

N kiwen rock
V kiwen to throw rocks at something
N kiwen the act of throwing rocks at something
"mi jo e kiwen pona. mi kiwen e jan ante. kiwen ni li pona ala"
this is a bit weird because I don't think kiwen in the last sentence works. because it's "kiwen ni" in sentence it's assumed to be the noun phrase from sentence one, not the verb. So it's just confusing.

because the rock can be good and the act of throwing it at someone can be bad but there's no way to make it clear that kiwen is talking about the act of applying a rock to something without it being assumed to just be the rock

or actually

maybe this does work?

[hushed gorge]

Wait yeah I totally spaced on that last example sentence, that makes less sense to me now, but id still consider it valid toki pona

[floral crescent]

it's valid grammatically

but it reads to me as "I have good rocks. I throw them at others. the rocks are not good."

which is kind of nonsense

if the rocks were becoming bad I would have used kama

[hushed gorge]

Yeah that's what I tried to read it as at first

[floral crescent]

but it doesn't really work

[hushed gorge]

It kinda works to me but I think if I had seen that before this conversation I wouldn't have thought so

[floral crescent]

imo that means it doesn't work

[hushed gorge]

Actually yeah it does, I agree with you

[floral crescent]

okay good

cool

[hushed gorge]

I just realized that (prior to sending) this post has 4010 messages, more than any other #1020033302595391488 post, even beating out #1053850152932233266 with 3810 messages. Overall, congratulations lipamanka for winning #1020033302595391488

[floral crescent]

sdflsdkfjl yes I did win

though linja sike was winning before this conversation I can garuntee you that

tbh I kinda like that they're neck in neck

it means that both my projects are thriving

[hushed gorge]

Yeah it's close, I could see #1053850152932233266 getting back the #1 spot any time

[floral crescent]

yeah exactly!

okay wait

I have another one

A>N>A
A suwi sweet
N something that is sweet
A relating to something that is sweet
can "ni li jan suwi" mean "this is a person who eats candy"

tbh yeah I definitely think so

tomo suwi could be a building for sweet things

[hushed gorge]

A person who eats candy would be made sweet by all the candy they eat

[modest remnant]

sure
tomo telo is a room for wet things

[floral crescent]

so A>N>A is valid!

[modest remnant]

my friends are jan pona because they have a relation to me, who is pona

[floral crescent]

telo starts off as N though so this isn't A>N>A it's either N>A or N>A>N>A (and I've already proven that N>A>N is equal to N if it works at all so this would just be N>A too)

[floral crescent]

yeah imo this works

so A>N>A is valid!

wooo

[modest remnant]

🚢 I just realized this is also tomo telo

[hushed gorge]

But without context there's still no way to differentiate between A and A>N>A, right

[floral crescent]

a tomo relating to things that have the qualities of telo
aka a tomo relating to telo

[floral crescent]

hm does A>N>A = A

that's the question I have now

I don't think so

the reason why suwi can mean "candy" is because of A>N

[modest remnant]

is a towel len telo

[hushed gorge]

It feels like there's more nuance to it

[modest remnant]

even if it's dry

[floral crescent]

yes

bc it's a len that is related to telo

if I had a bunch of dry towels I could say "ni li len telo. ona li weka e telo tan sijelo sina lon kepeken."

this sentence isn't nonsense and "len telo" is refering to the dry towels

[floral crescent]

hm. yeah I don't think it's the same

[hushed gorge]

Woah that's some stylish "lon kepeken" there

[floral crescent]

like N>A>N is the same thing (because via modern use N>A can be "that has the qualities of N")

[floral crescent]

aw thanks

I like to think that I have elegant and interesting phrasing that is still easy to understand

[hushed gorge]

I should try to use words in cool ways like that instead of spamming la, even if just for fun

[floral crescent]

I think "related to things that are sweet" and "sweet" are not the same things

[hushed gorge]

Yeah I agree

[floral crescent]

what if we do A>N>A>N WAIT NO THAT'S JUST A>N BECUASE N>A>N = N

relating to that which has the qualities of something that's sweet = relating to something that's sweet (am I doing this right or gving myself a headache)

(wait)

[hushed gorge]

This conversation is getting way too jiggy for my sleepy head so I'm going to go to sleep (I will read the backlog though probably)

[floral crescent]

A suwi sweet
N suwi something sweet
A suwi related to something sweet
N suwi something that's related to something sweet
A suwi relating to something that's related to something sweet
N suwi something that's related to something that's related to something sweet

good ngiht

hm

is "something that's related to something sweet" the same thing as "something sweet"

hm wait

[hushed gorge]

No

[floral crescent]

N>A>N isn't allowed unless we're using N>A "something with the qualities of N"

[floral crescent]

so this version breaks after A>N>A because it can't be A>N>A>N unless it's "something with the qualities of N" but even then maybe it doesn't work

[hushed gorge]

A candy bar is sweet but I wouldn't consider it related to other candy bars, but the candy wrapper is related to something sweet (the candy) without being sweet itself

[floral crescent]

A suwi sweet
N suwi something sweet
A suwi having the qualities of something sweet
N suwi something that has the qualities of something sweet = something sweet

AHA!

so our math WORKED

we WIN

but wait

A>N>A using the "related to N" version of N>A would be
A suwi sweet
N suwi something sweet
A swui relating to something sweet (wait is this reasonably different from "having the qualities of something sweet")

(yes)

[modest remnant]

mi moku e jan -> I turn someone into a chef

[floral crescent]

moku already has a defined V meaning

moku starts off as V

[modest remnant]

mi suwi e jan -> I turn someone into a confectioner?

[floral crescent]

one sec lemme check to see how these examples work in the derivation thing

[floral crescent]

V>A>N>A>V
V moku to eat
A moku related to eating
N moku something related to the act of eating
A moku having the qualities of something related to the act of eating
V moku to make something have the quality of something related to the act of eating
...

not sure if this one works

but I'm not sure why yet

which is why I'm going to FIGURE IT OUT

[floral crescent]

A>N>A>V
A suwi sweet
N suwi sweet things
A suwi related to sweet things
V suwi to make something related to sweet things

not sure if this one works either

[modest remnant]

how do you break down "mi lape e jan"

[floral crescent]

I gotta get through all the three long things

[modest remnant]

not being antagonistic, just adversarial

[floral crescent]

I'm not DONE YET but so far the possibilities I've mapped out are
A>V
A lape sleeping
V lape to make something have the quality of sleeping

A>N>V
I haven't done this one yet but it's NEXT ON THE LIST

[modest remnant]

lape starts as A?

[floral crescent]

yes it's an adjective in pu

[modest remnant]

wild

[floral crescent]

"resting, sleeping"

[modest remnant]

supa lape mi li pini e lape ona la, seme li kama 😨

[floral crescent]

speaking of lape

one sec

A>N>A
A lape sleeping
N lape something that has the quality of sleeping
HOLD UP WAIT

can lape mean "sleeping thing"

fuck

wait

I think I figured out what happened with lape

it actually got reanalyzed as a verb

so this would be
V>A>N
V lape to sleep
A lape have the quality of sleeping
N lape something that has the quality of sleeping
we have no idea if V>A>N works yet

we're not there yet

so we can come back to this

jesus this is a lot of work

[floral crescent]

without analyzing it this is like "hwat happens when my bed stops resting" and makes me think you're worried it's gonna come alive

idk if that's what you were going for or not

[modest remnant]

that was the thought yeah

[floral crescent]

jesus this is a lot of work

[modest remnant]

if the sort of, base meaning of lape is an adjective that means asleep

[floral crescent]

let's not jump ahead let's stick with the logic that I have gotten through so far

[hushed gorge]

i just realized that it seems a little strange to me to take toki pona words that are meant to describe "simple" concepts in a "simple" language then take steps on them to expand and complicate them. im not trying to tell you to stop, and im not sure i even 100% understand what youre doing, i just noticed it and thought it might be worth mentioning

[floral crescent]

I think these concepts aren't simple, they're just huge

the vocabulary is small

[modest remnant]

I'm really curious to see where it goes, since I assume the intention of this model is to have predictive power about what things could mean

[floral crescent]

idk if simple is the right word to describe any of this

[floral crescent]

yeah or rather, give that power to people who aren't able to figure it out through intuition or experience

bc there are rules here

these are rules I'm just figuring out what they are descriptively

[modest remnant]

(and I think the main risk here is that the rules of the model aren't the right shape/correspondence and you're doing epicycles)

[floral crescent]

idk what an epicycle is but I'm testing everything to make sure it is actually accurate

like I'm not done making the model yet

I'm at A>N>V

that's 6/12 of the three long ones I need to solve

and then I'll need to check all the four long ones (though i can eliminate any that have any illegal three long sequences in them, like N>V>N)

and simplify any that have any rules that could apply to them (like N>A>N = N) so I don't have to do those either

so so far any four long sequence that has N>V>N or N>A>N in it, I don't have to do

and I have seven more three long ones to check, some of them might also be illegal

basically i'm just proving something simple and in order to do that I need to do a lot of complicated work

and I'm actually figuring out what I'm proving as I go

Method™️

okay A>N>V time

[modest remnant]

(the analogy here is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferent_and_epicycle - basically, a complicated structure that accurately predicted apparent planetary motion given a geocentric premise; it worked but was less simple than plain elliptical orbits around the sun)

[floral crescent]

ah i see

well I mean

they couldn't have known that until they developed that method right

if it turns out that this is more complicated than it needs to be adn there was a simple way to generate the end product then idk

A>N>V
A musi entertaining
N musi something that's entertaining (entertainment)
V musi to apply entertainment to (to entertain)
this one works 👍

is it different than A>N

*A>V

A>V
A musi entertaining
V musi to make something entertaining
NOPE! they are distinct!

AVN time

A>V>N
A nasa weird
V nasa make something weird
N nasa something that is made weird (something weird)
A>N
A nasa weird
N nasa something weird
A>V>N = A>N (when V>N is "something that V applies to")

A>V>N
A nasa weird
V nasa make something weird
N nasa the act of making something weird
this one has the same problem that N>V>N has and doesn't work.

SO
A>V>N = A>N or A>V>N doesn't work

sequences we can cut out of the four long things:
N>A>N
N>V>N
A>V>N

we know that these either don't work or equal shorter sequences, which means the four longs would either not work or be equal to three longs or two longs.

[modest remnant]

so is the idea that these transformations that work universally work, or just that they're attested in some form?

[floral crescent]

once I'm done with the model I'll test it out on all sorts of words

A>V>A
A pini finished
V pini to make something finished (to finish)
A pini that finishes (things), that is for finishing (things), that is related to finishing (things)
jan pini - a person that finishes
tomo pini - a house that is used to finish things
kasi pini - a plant that when you eat it, you get all your work done
all three of these work. Are they distinct from A on its own?
A
jan pini - a person who is completed (is this distict? I think so)
tomo pini - a house that has been completed
kasi pini - a plant that has finished growing
yeah I think those are all distinct so A>V>A works

when I'm done with these I will Go To Bed

the three longs

[modest remnant]

⸻

[floral crescent]

V>N>A
V moku to eat
N moku something that is eaten (food) OR the act of eating (OH MY GOD WAIT - THIS IS ALL CONSISTANT)
A moku related to food OR related to eating OR has the qualities of food OR has the qualities of eating
OKAY so there are four of them let's test them out
jan moku - someone related to food (chef, eater), someone related to eating (same thing lol), someone who has the qualities of food (lol gingerbread man maybe), someone who has the qualities of eating (someone who is eating)
tomo moku - a building related to food (food making factory, kitchen, cafeteria), a building related to eating (cafeteria, this one isn't a factory or a kitchen bc there's no eating there), a building that has the qualities of food (what is it with gingerbread? gingerbread house lol), a building that has the qualities of eating (I mean. like if the building is literally eating thigns, idk.)
they ALL WORK. is this distinct from V>A?
V>A
V moku to eat
A moku that eats, that is for eating, that is related to eating
fuck wait - V>N>A is the same as V>A. epicycle moment. well I mean now I can write down "V>N>A = V>A". this also explains why moku means what it does very well, and actually works for other verbs too. look:
V>A
V olin to love
A olin that does loving, that is for loving, that is related to loving
V>A
V open to turn on
A open that turns on things, that is for turning on things, that is related to turning thigns on
V>A
V jo to hold
A jo that holds, that is for holding, that is related to holding

hm I feel like the "that is related to V" is actually not V>A and it's actually V>N>A

wait no I just proved that V>N>A = V>A

but wait I used the V>N>A meaning of V>A to prove that

actually

no all of this is saying that V>A and V>N>A are the same anyway. They're just the same. so we'll use the shorter one lol.

three longs we can eliminate from four long searches:
N>A>N
N>V>N
A>V>N
V>N>A

I have three more left

(V>N>V and V>A>V)

but I think I should go to bed after one more I'll take my sleeping meds now

the reason I'm doing this is because "some words are these things only" is kind of annoying and I wanna see if it's possible to define them all as nouns and then give a simplified derivation system that works for all of them

but idk if that's possible

[young moat]

Please don't end up making Ido

[floral crescent]

sdlfksdjklfsdj

that's really fucking funny

dw I am not doing that lol

okay one more

V>N>V