#Harpy SOP Change

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

thick valley
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To help make it so Harpy is around more often, a change to the SOP to make harpy not incredibly boring may help.

From:
Must be at least 2 Harpy members slotted to be operational.

To:
Must be at least 2 Harpy members slotted to be operational with an Asset.

  • May be operational with 1 Harpy member as long as they are attached to a line squad/butcher without a Harpy Asset.

Most people don't want to play Harpy because it takes two and all they'll be doing is sitting on a hill doing nothing outside of the few times red air spawns. This will at least help by letting harpy go operational alone as long as they attach with a squad so they can get some action waiting for red air.

clever vortex
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If a stinger launcher and 2 Missiles are added back to the 1-4 crate, it would alleviate a lot of the headache with minimal work

thick valley
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Another Idea would be that we just make Stingers like AT crates. Any squad can have 1 person carry AA. Harpy just specializes in the use of the AA Assets

copper bone
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Harpy is considered a direct combat squad, they can be directly with assaulting squads, people just choose not too

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Hence why it’s boring

keen ice
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^

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We're happy to look into changing the man count requirements but it seems like the only other fixes you're offering is just because no one wants to play as Harpy. But just treat Harpy like a line squad with AA instead of AT and people will play it more

prisma acorn
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Definitely wouldn’t mind changing the man requirements, it’s better to have one man out with a squad carrying the AA capability then him waiting back at base for a second man while everyone gets smacked by red air at the AO 10000m away

thick valley
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TBH another part of this is an issue with command only tasking them to sit on OP posts and not go with a line squad

keen ice
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We made Harpy a direct combat unit for a reason. So it wouldn't be a job where you sit on a hill for 3 hours, fire 1 stinger, then do nothing for the rest of restart

thick valley
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Yea. Most 1-6 treats it as an Indirect combat unit

narrow sigil
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i mean just change harpy to 2-4 so you have anti tank weapons squad and a anti air weapons squad

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and seeing as its off a different name sls are likely to take it into more direct combat

lucid shoal
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Changing the name would be the ultimate placebo effect

proud sage
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But then our assets are the Avenger, the NASAMS, and the CRAM, which are not direct action. In fact, we would have to leave our best assets at the FOB in order to go direct action because it's against SOPs to use the vics as direct action (as it should be).

Harpy is not effective as, and should not be, a direct action unit.

thick valley
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Thats why I propose no limit for harpy to go direct action, but to run assets they need 2 to go

lucid shoal
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Two in the Vic and the rest direct action. Not that complicated.

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Indirect action doesn’t mean you have to stay at fob. 100-200m behind platoon would suffice I would think.

thick valley
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everybody gangster till the T-90 roll up on Harpy's OP

lucid shoal
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Drive away if tank is coming?

proud sage
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Harpy has a very unique mission set, with a different pace and payoff than everyone else. I love Harpy. I love manning massive radars and tracking everything that flies for hours on end. Lots of us do. Lots of us like the chill side of it where we aren't running all over creation just to die and reapawn. Lots of us love the dopamine that is dropping an Airborne BG.

Harpy has boring aspects, yes. Cool. Whatever. Shade isn't direct action, and people love that. People play Ogre. People play Shadow. People play Goblin.

The answer is not shoving us closer to the fight. Engaging Red Air takes line of sight and time, something that is hard to come by in combat. If you send one lone dude out with a stinger to follow 1-4 around like a lost puppy, then all he's gonna do is hide because if he dies there's no air cover until he gets back, and God forbid a Felon shows up, or even a MiG-29, else you're fucked. Never mind that you've only got 3-5km effective range based on what you are engaging, and only 3 rockets max, and you're fat as fuck so you can't keep up very well. Tell me how that is fun.

I think we should play into the ADA more. We piss away fucktons of supplies and resources into Butcher and Reaper and Demon, all for them to get shot down or blown up all the damn time. That Avenger lived for days, if not weeks. Allow Harpy to spend a high amount of resources for a Patriot battery, or some shit like that, idk, something worth it. Something that can stop the missiles.

Either way, the problem isn't Harpy, or how it is set up. It's an Air Defense Artillery unit, not a 1-4 guy with a stinger.

lucid shoal
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It should be noted that nothing in the SOP’s state that the vehicles are indirect action

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So I’m not sure where you guys are getting that from.

proud sage
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I cannot engage anything with those vehicles.

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Per SOPs, I cannot directly engage ground forces with my vehicles.

lucid shoal
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Yes. Not the same as indirect action though.

proud sage
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You lost me

lucid shoal
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“Harpy is a direct action unit” straight from SOP’s

proud sage
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Yes, as in I can send in guys with Stingers to attach to an Assasin or Butcher unit and they can kick doors with them

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The vehicles are not.

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That's a big reason why the "Iron Dome Avenger" isn't around anymore.

lucid shoal
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Right. But whoever is not in the vehicle can push with the rest of the platoon.

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You don’t all have to stay together.

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My comments are directed to the OP. And the argument is to let harpy in on the action, which they can already do.

proud sage
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"Harpy must operate as a team and share the same overall tasking"

Either we are standoff with our vehicles, or we are attached. We can't split like that.

lucid shoal
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Doesn’t say you can’t split up. Just can’t lose radio contact with them. No different then a squad tasking fire teams to different locations

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Send a few guys with stingers to 1-4 sbf as forward observers while the Vic stays behind a little in defilade.

proud sage
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We split up all the time when he have only stingers, but I can't attach half my team to a unit

lucid shoal
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Right. Attaching them would be putting them under direct supervision of another unit. Tasking them with following another squad is completely different.

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As long as you maintain control of where your team members go you can send them anywhere.

thick valley
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this might need to be modified if we want to split them up

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proud sage
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To task a team to follow a squad is literally attaching them, regardless of c2

lucid shoal
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Attaching them would mean they follow orders of the squad SL they are moving with.

proud sage
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This is semantics

lucid shoal
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This is no different if 1-3 is tasked with following 1-2. They are still operated as 2 separate units.

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Or banshee sending a member to 1-2 and one to 1-3. Banshee is still operating as a unit even though they are split up.

proud sage
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Okay, but they are to withdraw immediately after rendering care, they are sharing the same overall tasking as a unit

lucid shoal
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We don’t always withdraw to the same spot. We often have different sectors we cover

prisma acorn
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I think we are getting away from the main point

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Changing the man requirements from 2 to 1

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So that the platoon can keep that AA capability

lucid shoal
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You tell 2 guys to go to 1-4 and can recall them whenever you want. That would not be breaking sop’s

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As long as harpy TL has direct control over where they are going then you are still operating as a unit even if you are split up.

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All of the platoon assets require 2 members so I don’t think this will ever change.

prisma acorn
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Not stalker

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And only cuz those assets have things to lose

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Let harpy go into the field with a stinger only if alone, keep the requirement if that want to take an avenger or CRAM

proud sage
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That's not going to get you the return you want. I promise you it's not.

lucid shoal
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Goblin, Harpy, butcher, banshee, phantom and shade all have a 2 man requirement.

quick stone
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alot has been said here and not sure if i am repeating anything but Harpy is a direct combat unit. They don't have to be on that hill. the can be in the shit with the line squads, integrated into them to help with the push.
i know this is counter productive to have them with 1-1/2/3 due to high cas chance, but if they link to 1-4, even with their vic, they can be in the field guns up providing SBF. once red air is called they can run back to the vic gun it down, make sure airspace is clear, and then go back to SBF with 1-4.

proud sage
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Vics need wide open LOS because that's how we achieve lock

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Look, I'm not trying to be an asshole. If there is anything I can do to make my favorite role better, than of course I will.

The main problem is the requirement for SHORAD when utilizing our major vics. The Avenger can kind of protect itself thanks to the 16km radar giving it tons of advance warning for the major threats, but it'll lose pretty handily to a Felon that can engage at the same range and notch missiles much easier.

The NASAMS has shit sensors, but amazing munitions. It needs LOS to take things down, and there isn't a lot of advance warning with the radar sensors it has.

CRAM is CRAM. It doesn't do well against aircraft unless you can detonate a munition nearby it. The up-facing radar it pretty neato, but that's more for incoming munitions.

and then there's the MANPAD stingers. These are indespensible when defending aircraft in close as they can lock closer with less struggle than our vics, making them awesome when the aircraft start to fight back.

Look, if you want to experiment with attaching to Butcher or Wraith due to them needing elevation as much as we do, I'll concede and start tasking boys to ride with them.

The thing about Harpy is that we are tasked with Air Defense, Meaning we need to protect as much of the airspace as possible at any given time. That includes:

  • The SAAFR
  • The FOB
  • Support units, and most importantly,
  • the AO.

In order to best monitor the airspace, employ our weapons in a manner that gives us the advantage, and do so as reliably as possible, we need open areas of elevation to find, lock, and engage enemy aircraft. This allows us line of sight in as much a place as once, it allows us to cast radar as far as possible and over interfering foliage and terrain, and it allows us security to do these things while not being under fire (most of the time). Similar how you wouldn't ask Wraith to push up to a tank when they can effectively engage from their range with a TOW ATGM, or Shade to get closer, We are best suited to be stood off to minimize the ability of the enemy to engage our positions with their munitions and maximize the effectiveness of ours.

By design Harpy is meant to deploy together and are no longer a direct action unit after vics are deployed. That is where the SOP's get in the way of the mission, if your goal is to send us into direct combat as if we are another 1-4. Otherwise, it's not Harpy or the SOP's. It's that the necessity of what we need to do to accomplish the mission as best as possible isn't as desirable as Assassin, or Butcher, or Wraith.

ebon wind
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Look, y'all want harpy to attach to stuff until those felons spawn in and kill half our assets because harpy wasn't sitting on a hill with a 16 km radar and a NASAMS. Also no harpy sitting on hills = no more BGs being taken out from 6-10 km without them dropping troops.

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We're missing the point of this thread tho.

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Imo May be operational with 1 Harpy member as long as they are attached to a line squad/butcher without a Harpy Asset., this is good overall. There have been times where I was in this position, either by wanting to play harpy but couldn't because I was alone or because everyone from the team left and I had to rtb.

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Most of the harpy guys DO actually attach to butcher when we only have manpads because: free ride everywhere and butch usually is in a good elevated position close enough to the AO for us to be efficient but far enough to not get fucked by armor/EI. Also a reason why the SOP change is good, a single guy can attach to butch. Attaching to line squads = bad (you're in a bad position probably covered with trees and no lines of sight over anything that you need to protect, reference what Doc said above), 1-4 is eh, lately with AI being busted and vehicles tanking nukes basically I've been reluctant to going near them as harpy lol

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Also about SOPs, can we please make it required for harpy to be on 80...(someone in the harpy team, either the TL or someone has to have at least an additional on 80).

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If you still want to complain about how harpy operates, "be the change you want to see" - someone with a long neck I think, go slot in, play the way you want to and show us you are more efficient and retain more new players to the role.

thick valley
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gonna bump this and get it back to the original point:
Change Harpy SOP to allow solo member to be attached to squads without an asset.

Maybe allow assets to be split tasked and set at OPs with the rest attached to a squad. Wouldn't make sense to run an avenger with 5 people on a hill for a single asset or an avenger alongside 1-1 in front lines. Something like 2 people can be split to man an asset in an OP while the rest continue attached to a squad. Or all 5 on a squad with no asset.

prisma acorn
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I Agree

stone rose
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We are keeping Harpy the way it is

stuck reef
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would increasing the red air spawn rate help?

reef cloud
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No

ashen hedge
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it would just heavily discourage buying CAS-only assets like the Harrier

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or the Apache

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because these assets are basically unable to defend themselves from red air or defend against red air

amber elbow
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I seen a similar complaint a while ago just like this but it was about goblin but everyone tried to make the guy look like hes being silly but yet were doing it for other roles now