AI difficulty is too hard and im dead more than i play

[silver drift]

i die alot

[midnight holly]

Skill issue

[split spruce]

Skill Issue

[unkempt ferry]

Gotta admit the AI seems OP. I was treating a teammate, heard one shot, moved sideways laying suppressive fire from 249, took one hit, KO'd, took second hit...DEAD. Never saw the AI, so in the grass or bushes,

All over in maybe 3 seconds

[silver drift]

if i get shot by AI, 90% of the time its because they can see me while they snipe me from grass

[unkempt ferry]

I can understand them narrowing their fire in on you but 3 shots, 2 hits to kill a moving target through vegetation while suppressed?

[tiny meadow]

That's just Arma aimbot bro

[tired radish]

The big balancing act is that it's extremely difficult to get the ArmA AI either OP or useless. There's very little in-between.

What do you guys want? AI that stand there and rarely even fire, or AI that will one tap you?

[unkempt ferry]

It's a recent change, this map. To be honest being one tap to invisible AI isn't fun for anyone

[tired radish]

I mean my question wasn't really retorical.

What would you guys prefer? Twice the AI (this worse performance) that can't see at range and are far less accurate... Or do you prefer how it is now with AI that are far more accurate but also can see through foliage (which will exists either way just from farther distances with how it is now)

[unkempt ferry]

Previous system...I'm playing here less and less. In 5hours I saw one AI dismount a tank and killed him but died to invisible AI at least 4 times.That was the only ai seen

This is two experienced players with many hours on this server saying so

[split spruce]

Personally I’ve only had issues so far when people are overly hasty enough to Aggro the AI from super long range where their magic powers shine. Forest fighting and urban has been fine.

Now field guns on the other hand, wrath of god.

[gloomy agate]

TBH I don't really have a ton of issue with infantry AI at the moment. It's in a decent place compared to the past. It still suffers from being Arma, but the biggest issue I'm seeing in terms of "difficulty" is the vehicles that are:
A) Unkillable 95% of the time due to that one bug where they take no damage
B) Extremely aggressive and just steamroll your position at full speed the second you aggro them rather than fighting properly

[unkempt ferry]

So if it's Arma why is it an issue with DCO but wasn't under LAMBS?

[split spruce]

Real talk the vehicle thing is way more noticeable because they are overly aggressive and every tiny village has the entire Russian armor regiment sitting on it lmao

[tired radish]

We are well aware of the vehicles issue, and trust me we are trying to find what is causing that bug. We want it gone as much as you guys do

[split spruce]

I’m not beating the dead horse. Ain’t much left to hit.

[tired radish]

I 100% agree that the vehicle damage bug is the most important one at the moment

[gloomy agate]

No worries, we appreciate it! I was moreso pointing out that in my opinion, the vehicles being the way they are currently is making it seem like EVERYTHING is more difficult.

In all reality - we're being forced to take longer range engagements due to the vehicles being incredibly aggressive and whatnot, which is putting the AI in their godmode range. When vehicles get fixed, the infantry issue will likely resolve itself without need for intervention. That's the only reason I brought it up.

[untold grotto]

this goes back a few maps. Our choices are we leave the AI at the difficulty they are at. Or we have it lowered, but the quantity is increased for AI, resulting in server instability

[mossy atlas]

The AI isn't unbeatable. If you have a good squadlead and you use cover and suppressive fire while advancing you can win a 1 v 1 vs an enemy squad. But if you expect to win against multiple enemy squads with only 1-1 and 1-2 while not searching for effective cover and suppressing then you will die. DCO is not godmode AI...DCO just doesn't forgive mistakes. You are on the open while enemies are close and they spot you? Dead. You attack a village while the enemy armour is still up? Dead. You don't watch your spacing ? Dead. The AI is just more realistic. It uses RPGs grande launchers and everything it has more effective. You guys were used to lambs etc. Or even vanilla. Compared to that AI, DCO is godmode AI. DCO forces the players to play better and smarter. Because if the don't there are 2 Options: they die and learn or they die and complain.

[mossy atlas]

The AI is good at suppression at long range it just uses their mg really well and the marksman. The vehicles aren't always aggressive. They are only aggressive if the have the advantage. (So yeah I guess you point is valid haha they nearly always have the advantage)

[mossy atlas]

The DCO team will be working on it as soon as possible but it isn't an high priority one because it is only Air to ground. Ground to ground is as far as we know working as intended.

I will start testing for bugs again but I am not home atm so I can't.

[mossy atlas]

If you mean ground to ground the issue is that Arma doesn't like the multiple components which means sometimes it doesn't register all damage past the ERA for example but that shouldn't happen to often. At least I haven't noticed any big issues in my tests. If you hit the ass it will nearly always be killed. Even with at4. Remember AT4 is not an weapon which should be used to attack the defended side of a MBT (front side etc.)

[split spruce]

I haven’t had issues with the armor eating rounds. My commentary was more that the amount of armor can feel excessive sometimes given how they tend to Leroy Jenkins their way into the company.

[mossy atlas]

If you hit Era with a javelin it can happen that the era takes 90 percent of the javelin damage and only little damage is applied. That happens only if u use direct fire though...at least for me

[split spruce]

If the armor behaved like humans and stuck to supporting it’s infantry it would be fine but they act like dogs off the leash once they smell blood lmao

[mossy atlas]

If they see that they have the advantage they will push

[split spruce]

Trust me we noticed

[gloomy agate]

I'm agreeing that there isn't really an infantry issue. However, as an line infantry SL I try to guide 1-4 onto targets whenever possible. I have noticed an unfathomable amount of times where 1-4 will have a Javelin will fire at a tank that hasn't noticed us either top down or direct fire from the rear, and will also have a MAWS or Gustav ready to fire for insurance, and sometimes an AT4 after that. The amount of times I've seen that setup NOT do literally anything to enemy armoured vics makes me honestly not want to play because the vehicles just seem uncounterable. It's definitely happening with all AT, not just air-to-ground

[mossy atlas]

If you have anything more concrete on the invisible AI tell me please. But that normally only happens if Zeus places a squad and makes them invisible by accident.

[mossy atlas]

I am just saying what the Devs told me. There shouldn't be an bug for ground to ground. I personally think that is an problem with era and the way that Arma handles that. Look I tried pushing the dev team to do some bugfixing. But that takes a lot of time. If you could upload a video or send the logs (of the process that happens after impact)to me that would help because the biggest problem is testing and searching for bugs. This takes time. And we don't have time.

[haughty fulcrum]

We shoot a T-80 in the ass with 4 AT4s to no avail

That was done infront of the entire PLT

Last map and I'm sure it's been done on this map too

[gloomy agate]

Fair enough. Once again I just want to make clear I'm not trying to complain or be ungrateful - just want to confirm that there does seem to be a ground to ground AT issue is all

[mossy atlas]

The marksman is deadly. That is something you guys have to learn. If you hear a marksman shot then you have to find cover asap. He is a marksman after all. But instead you guys just take the same fucking position again and again even after friendlies died there a second ago...I saw 3 guys die one after another because they were just ignoring the marksman shooting at them and thought they had to 1v1 him...and then they complain "oh the AI is so op it is to accurate oh I couldn't do anything" wrong you could do a lot. How about dropping a smoke? How about hiding? How about running not in a straight line away from the enemy. Btw this isn't about you it is what everyone does in general. I can't stand it if people stay in the open while a sniper shoots them and complain afterwards...

[mossy atlas]

That may be the case. I don't know for sure. I have not had any issues but I was 1-4 only 3 times so yeah (SL)

[mossy atlas]

The Roadmap for DCO is something like that: Squad Fsm (Squads flanking accessing enemy strength and communication with squads close to them. ~4 weeks) Platoon Fsm ( Platoon tactics and movement ~ 8 weeks) and after that we will go back to vehicle Fsm. This is only from the Devs working on the AI we have other projects as well. So yeah it will take at least 2 months until we start to work on vehicle fsm unless we get help.

[split spruce]

Based

[nova mango]

I think it's not so much how the AI have changed but how we are still using the same tactics against them as before.

I'm still seeing PL/SLs happy to throw wave after wave of Infantry at something until its overcome.

I've seen some exceptional good movement at squad and fireteam level, but this doesn't seem to be translating to Platoon level and squads moving and covering each other.

Squads "Sending it" into an objective sometimes isn't the best way forward.

[mossy atlas]

Yeah you are completely right. This server is about using tactics and coordination to capture objectives. And that is why the AI should stay at this difficulty. People need to learn that you can't just move into the objective. You need to cover and support. At the moment we need 2-3 waves to capture a town we lose over 50 soldiers every time we attack. And all if that because we just rush and push. We need to use better tactics. We need to learn that falling back is a good thing. It is stupid to keep the assault up if we have lost 1/3 of our force. Attack, fall back, defend, attack, flank, attack, fall back, defend, attack...

Use probing attacks! Test how much resistance will be on a frontline. Use your brain xd

(all if that has to be done with multiple squads)

[twilit hare]

lower it (they're russians)

[split spruce]

You’re telling me there’s more to planning than putting the platoon on-line and just going in?

[nova mango]

Apparently so.

Been a long since troops just lined up and walked towards each other 🤣

[hearty kraken]

i find the forced foliage is kinda shit. the AI can see through and tap you in the head because technically you're close. but because of how arma foliage is, i can't see 30m infront of me downhill. annoying sometimes but I understand it's there so KOG isn't easy af to spot/kill when they hop on and vice versa for kog vs blufor

[static haven]

My issue isn't the AI 1 tapping me alone. Its when the AI takes a full mag to the head and doesn't even care, then prones in the grass becoming invisible and 1 tapping me.

[nova mango]

I take it you mean the forced grass and not trees and stuff?

[novel rain]

Really the only problem I’ve had is downhill like Witting said. When you’re looking downhill you can’t really see that well in front of you and the AI pokes the tip of their helmet thru the grass and nails us. Other than that, the AI in my opinion is pretty damn good. We need better tactics, the airfield push yesterday was just plat get on line, push, die, regroup, do it again over and over

[novel rain]

Yeah dude yesterday we were getting pinned by a sniper I was trying to get my guys to move down defilade to flank but everyone wanted to try to peek the sniper instead and I had like 3 ppl go down to a sniper at over a k away. Then when they finally moved they failed to actually get in defilade and got GMG’d. You guys can’t complain after doing stuff like that bc it’s pretty much your own fault but people were mad at the AI last night for avoidable stuff

I’ve maybe died to EI twice or 3 times this map it’s just been armor. EI is easy. Just don’t get cocky, and reposition. Think about where you are before you engage I see a lot of people engaging from places that if stuff goes south they don’t have an easy way to retreat so we get bogged down and picked off

I did die to EI last night bc there was a lone EI about 200m away pinning us down and instead of listening to me and finding the one guy that’s shooting at us my entire squad wanted to focus a guy in a window over a K away and left me to solo pie the woods and I got plinked and bled out bc no one noticed I was down for 5 mins bc they were still engaging window guy

We move half the plat straight down a hill towards the enemy and then pull a surprised pikachu when a single field gun wipes a squad and a half, pretty much

[mossy atlas]

Yeah yeah yeah you are so right. Finally someone who really understands (and replies) mgs will suppress you like hell but they have to reload as well (and then they will change pos as well) if you stand up you will die. If a sniper is hunting you you will notice the first two shots normally won't hit you but will be very close (if you are moving) but after 3 maybe 4 second he will be accurate af and will kill you if you don't stay down or change pos where he loses Los. I repeat you can not win in a 1v1 against a marksman you just can't unless you are really lucky. The AI is not smart but it is way smarter than COD AI or even lambs. That is why they complain. If you guys want AI that just missed you and is blind play cod I guess. I prefer if I have to think at least a bit before attacking.

I understand that DCO has bugs. I understand that it is annoying if the AI sees through grass. But it is Arma. If it was perfect we wouldn't have these problems. But it isn't.

DCO soldier fsm for example has 15 Thousand lines of script. It will have some bugs. Vehicle fsm has some conflict/bug which makes some rounds be buggy and not damage the tank. it isn't perfect. But 90 percent of the time I am able to kill a bump with an at4. And as wraith i can kill a tank with one shot most of the time as well. Sometimes nothing happens but I just accept it and shot another round. Just accept it and pretend that it missed or the warhead missfired. The bug will be fixed but that takes time

[novel rain]

Honestly the grass thing is just base arma. DCO probably makes it worse, sure, but trust me you want this AI guys. We’d be steamrolling if it was easier and it wouldn’t be engaging at all. For the armor not taking damage, has anyone seen anything other than an MBT take a beating like that? I’ve seen a Shielka take 8 sticks before but if I remember correctly it’s on a tank chassis. Surely something like a BTR isn’t taking 8 sticks right?

[mossy atlas]

Maybe if you only hit the Front but even that is unlikely

[coral depot]

@tired radish Is there a way we can slowly tweak their accuaracy and awareness down at like 5% intervals to find that sweet spot. The ai is great we love their movement and agression. they are just too aimbotty right now.

[hearty kraken]

yeah the forced grass. i would never ask for trees to be removed lmao

[mossy atlas]

Where are they aimbotty?

There are marksman which have amazing accuracy but the normal units won't be able to kill you one shot (there is a bug though which isn't DCO caused it is in vanilla as well.)

[split spruce]

They tend to be surprisingly accurate and good at spotting 500+ out considering they’re using AK-74’s with iron sights lol

[mossy atlas]

Spotting? We are also good at spotting...I have no problem seeing movement at 1 Kilometer distance

And if they shoot normally they won't hit you first shot they will need to shot a few times before they get accurate. That is why you need to move. If you move they loose their bonus.

[split spruce]

I’m not counting “well of course they can see you dumbass” moments. I’ll clip the next time I have a good example as the last time I had one was a while ago.

[mossy atlas]

Maybe you mean the trees and grass blocking their view. But that is just Arma. And they communicate. If one guy sees you everyone will know you position. (Everyone close) and the SL use binos. Sometimes it takes a few seconds for them to react so it might seem they spotted you out of the blue.

[coral depot]

crew dismounts, in trees, on top of hills, anywhere you are within 700m doesnt matter visabilty wise.

[keen onyx]

Totally agree with this Hoop - only thing I hate about the AI on this map.

[mossy atlas]

Look guys at the moment we are forced to attack as platoon. We have no chance to attack alone or with only one squad. That is good. If we make the AI worse people won't stick to tactics to win. What we need to do is make the AI realistic health wise. They take to many bullets.

[split spruce]

I mean we already stick to mass death wave tactics half the time lol.

But yeah I’d rather focus on their armor than their aim. It’s usually fine long as SAWs do their job.

[mossy atlas]

And the AI shouldn't be able to one tap you. Sometimes they get lucky I guess or they are bugged. I got one taped once. It was annoying but I dealt with it.

[mossy atlas]

Ah and you solution to keep people from doing this is to make the AI worse at hitting you so that people survive the human wave strat? xd

[split spruce]

No. It’s for people to get their act together.

[mossy atlas]

Btw please don't take anything personal I am just saying my opinion haha

[keen onyx]

I don’t have an issue with being one tapped but I should be able to do the same - you can dump a full mag into the AI’s head and they can still be up

I know it can be a bullet reg problem due to desync though

[split spruce]

I am not calling for the aim to be changed. I am pointing out that I think sometimes they get a little iffy but it is what it is. This map has been mostly forest fighting for me anyways lmao

[mossy atlas]

Yeah I also said it multiple times. That should be nerfed. One headshot? Ok... Two headshots hmm strange ...three headshots? Ok...nah fuck this

[mossy atlas]

Yeah in forests we have the visibility issue haha

[coral depot]

no one is saying making them dumb, we are asking for tweak, small percentage down, to work with. we already have armor that tanks everything we throw, we have kog, and we have terminators that are ai. i think its already challenging enough with the first two issues at play. enough people have complained about it old and new.

[keen onyx]

For me there is two things that need to be fixed:

1. Potential bullet reg problem where the AI is taking far too many bullets to go down
2. AI being able to shoot you through the trees/grass when they can’t see you

I’m not asking for the difficultly to be changed at all because when it’s in the city etc it’s totally fine

We’re only seeing the 2nd issue happen more this mission due to the map we’re on

[mossy atlas]

they are still dumb haha they cant do shit. We managed to capture so many objectives so i guess it isnt to hard. If we would use better tactics we would survive more

[keen onyx]

It’s also worth noting - regardless of tactics used etc the above issues will still happen

[mossy atlas]

if the ai gets better we can nerf them

[mossy atlas]

yeah i agree with these 2

fix these but keep the accuarcy

[split spruce]

If we only manage cuz we can afford to take 50%+ casualties cuz of respawns does it really count

Like I’m more of a “that’s a skill issue” guy rather than AI issue on that end, but still.

[mossy atlas]

Look my standpoint is that i see so many people just run around, ignore enemy fire, turn their back to the enemy without cover, dont take cover, ignore Snipers which will kill you 2 maybe 3 shot and so on...So yeah i see people doing dumb stuff and then complain. Because i never had these issues. (maybe once or twice but i learned at least i think so) The AI is so predictable at the moment. they cant do big flanking manuvers (yet) they won`t cordinate with other Squads to souround you (yet) so yeah i would even turn their skill etc up

[split spruce]

After taking a moment to think, I think we should realize if we want any change we must first work on preventing the deaths we can control. It’s too difficult to narrow down what’s actually a balance issue or what’s just people doing things the easy but dangerous ways.

If we stop dying to complacency the deaths from balance issues will become easier to see.

TLDR: skill issues.

[mossy atlas]

Maybe it helps if i explain the basic AI regarding aim: They have a base Aim they may hit you first shot but they probably won`t. After the first shot the script checks if the Target has moved. If false then the Aim will get better and better with each shot the AI takes.

[split spruce]

Doesn’t the suppression mess with that and give you more time as well or am I going schizo

[mossy atlas]

Yes Supression makes the AI Aim worse

by a big chunk

[split spruce]

I know in personal testing I’ve seen them straight up refuse to shoot under SAW fire and immediately resume after a few seconds without fire

[mossy atlas]

but it takes 3 maybe 4 shits to have an effect. The more Rounds hit close to the Ai the more the supression. after a few secs it goes away (if no rounds impact or fly by)

[mossy atlas]

Just run DCO in debug mode it will show the supression there above the unit

[hushed lintel]

All of my deaths so far have had good reason. Most of the time it’s the squad getting a bad position or making a bad push. Once we get a good position or overwhelming firepower it makes it much easier and its a lot more realistic in that sense than being able to charge down A.I even while the enemy squad is raining hell on you. If we were fighting a militia force I’d understand turning down their ability but keep in mind we are literally fighting russians who in an ideal world would be trained soldiers.

90% of it is bad decisions, 10% of it is bad luck imo be that red air or just ai getting a lucky shot

[mossy atlas]

yeah this is a stupid video game it isnt perfect and there will be bugs like One shot ai. But it shouldnt happen too often...

If you do something dumb the AI will punish you

[hushed lintel]

It’s really the idea of if you’re pinned down in bad cover, you shouldn’t be there in the first place and if you are you shouldn’t try to do a hard fight from it either

[mossy atlas]

and you have to deal with that by getting better or avoiding that mistake instead of crying to the gods to punish the bad AI (no offence xD)

[mossy atlas]

But people always do

they fight back

[hushed lintel]

Yeah and that’s when they complain

[mossy atlas]

even though they can see and hear the bullets impacting close

[split spruce]

All in favor of Skill Issue say aye

[mossy atlas]

https://tenor.com/view/aeeeeeeeeeyyyy-dance-gif-23875989

[hushed lintel]

That they’re dying while in an awful position after having fought for 20 minutes to a one tap headshot with no medic able to extract them because of the bad pos

Aye

[hearty kraken]

the amount of dudes who don't return fire is amazing

[novel rain]

Honestly, I think a big problem lies in a lot of people not knowing when to properly disengage. 5.56 can go far but it’s most effective w/I 500m. We get bogged down in these long distance firefights when we should be maneuvering with proper peeling fire to get to a better position. It’s ultimately up to SLs to understand when and where is a good place to engage from

[novel rain]

Aye

[hearty kraken]

they just sit there complaining

[mossy atlas]

just supress the general Directin and walk backwards. That is better than just taking bullets. Or find hard cover and smoke and make a run for it

[split spruce]

Real talk the “trying to mag dump a single Russian at 800m” thing is very frustrating to see lol

[split spruce]

Break Contact using fireteam bounds.

[novel rain]

https://youtu.be/4wzKt9UhT3M

[hushed lintel]

Return fire towards the enemy -> Retreat or find a better position -> Deploy accurate fire on enemy position

[split spruce]

I’ll be talking to WhatsHisFace soon to try and get an infantry tactics class going on the server and will be covering that cuz no one knows how to actually like, leave a fight

[mossy atlas]

Yeah i am trying to teach people to use basic tactics like 2 supress 2 Fall back or 2 advance 2 Cover (And then switch roles)

[hushed lintel]

Bounding and using ARs for cover is something I see a lot in squads but usually only for advances

[novel rain]

Exactly everyone forgets how to bound when it’s not towards the enemy

[split spruce]

“PUT IT IN REVERSE TERRY”

[novel rain]

https://tenor.com/view/back-up-terry-fire-works-scared-gif-13970677

[hushed lintel]

Something that has to be taken into account is that a lot of new people are also new to Arma or modded Arma. Most of them don’t know tactics at all

[mossy atlas]

and they are used to the braindead ai

[novel rain]

My squad was full of new people yesterday so that is absolutely a big factor

Had to teach them ace interact type of new

[hushed lintel]

There’s not many games that require tactics on this level so yeah it’s definitely something a tactics class would help with

[split spruce]

As an FTL I always try to be very clear in what I want from people when I give them the task unless I have someone I know who’s attached to them that will do it for me

outsourcing, baby

[novel rain]

I will say tho, the EI health is kinda stupid when it comes to headshots. I get having to get a good bit of body shots. But there been times where I put 5 back to back shots right below the dudes helmet line and he’s still kicking

[split spruce]

just shoot harder

[novel rain]

If I had my SCAR it wouldn’t be a problem 🗣️

.308 solves problems

The things I can concede to: AI shooting thru grass, health being buggy with headshots, and MBT armor being made of ceramite sometimes. Everything else pretty much comes back to us

[hushed lintel]

yeah the 240 takes like 6 shots to kill, with rhs russians .300 blk will one tap though lmao

[wintry flare]

The Mad MGs have been my focal point here lately they lay down and even when getting hit by suppressed fire mind you some of these are physically hitting him and dude was just terminating us like our fire was bouncing from him it was until he had taken so many rounds that the ai finally registered that he was getting torn up so then he finally freaked out before he died

Dude took 12+ shots and was like

https://tenor.com/view/monty-python-king-arthur-black-knight-ive-had-worse-bad-situation-gif-6118886

[mossy atlas]

He panicked because he wasn't able to understand how he is surviving all these bullets

https://tenor.com/view/wandavision-vision-i-dont-know-who-i-am-gif-20427866

[wintry flare]

https://tenor.com/view/tonystark-panic-tonystarkpanic-gif-14527742

[mossy atlas]

Or guys it was superman in disguise and he noticed that you were recording him or something and he ran away to protect his secret identity

[novel rain]

Idk where they’re getting their conscripts from but GYAT damn

Dudes have depleted uranium skin

[light ruin]

I hit a BTR with with an AT4. A dismount got out. His vehicle then exploded and he survived. He shot at me once, and I took cover behind a wall. I pied the angle, returned fire. I hit 2-3 shots center mass. He then shoots back; headshot, I’m down. A dismount standing next to a burning vic with atleast two rounds in him shouldn’t have accuracy like that.

I like the challenge. But it has gotten to the point where if I shoot at EI, and my first shot isn’t a headshot, I break contact and run away. There’s no point doing otherwise.

To the extent that suggestions are required…a tweak to the accuracy and/or something about foliage to give us more cover. Otherwise, just leave it alone and we’ll have to deal with it.

[mossy atlas]

Just give the AI less HP reducing accuracy doent solve the Problem or is a Problem. AI will be accurate at a Range of 100m or even 200m and that isnt bad because you have to peek instead of staying in the open. the only problem with ai is that they are tanky and can see too much

[ocean hazel]

It is more rewarding for the AI to be really hard rather than have it be too easy. I will take SVD’s one tapping me through multiple bushes from 300m than an ai that doesn’t respond to contact.

[mossy atlas]

Yeah it will be just Boring if AI doesn`t do anythong anymore.

I would rather get fucked by the ai than just playing shooting Range sim

I know with lambs it will do something but come on with DCO the AI is way Harder and better

[stray owl]

I mean I shot 2 mags into 1 dude and he stood up and shot me with rpg

[static haven]

I have had it several times where Im 5 feet in front of someone, I hit 10 shots into their head, they pull out a different gun while im shooting them and land a headshot and instantly down me

[ocean hazel]

That sounds like a de sync issue?

[novel rain]

I’d be lying if I said it didn’t happen to me too sometimes, we know that headshot damage feels buggy rn. I’m fine with having to hit a guy more than a couple times in the limbs and body, but I have seen Russians eat 10 HS but then the next one takes one to the face and eats the dirt. It’s a hit or miss. The damage I think may need tweaking but difficulty wise I think it’s at a good level spare the Arma Jank

Like rams said I’d rather have to deal with some BS every now and then bc the AI is too good than completely steamroll the map

[static haven]

im fine if they take like 4-6 shots for a body kill... but not an entire mag or two

[light ruin]

I’m fine with it the way it is. But it’s annoying having this complaint dismissed outright as a “skill issue.”

It’s not. They have insane accuracy.

[static haven]

you can't even suppress them effectively because they don't really care if they're being shot at

So tactics of bounding don't really work... They just drop everyone in the open while an MG is shooting them

then drop the MG

[novel rain]

We’re joking when we say that. We know the AI is ridiculous sometimes. The problem is we’re bounding straight towards them, there was almost 0 higher thought during the airfield push as far as I saw at least. We were just pushing down a hill towards whatever they wanted to throw at us. We had a massive hill in front of the OBJ and instead of using it for movement concealment to pinch from both sides we just walked down the hill straight towards them

I can’t agree with the suppression I’ve seen suppression work really well. The AI doesn’t like being shot it. They’ll move OUT of their cover if you shoot at them enough

The thru grass, the damage falloff, and MBTs not taking damage is being addressed. Those are totally valid criticisms. But a lot of the complaints are “the AI are blasting me” when no one’s taking measures to not be blasted

That’s where the skill issue thing comes in. If your squad is being sniped at by a guy a k away. Maybe don’t sit your whole squad on a ridgeline, skylining. Witnessed a whole squad get GMG’d last night then complain bc they were moving thru an open field straight towards the obj. That’s not the AIs fault they wanted to pretty much hand them the kills for free

I was in that squad trying to get them to move to defilade but then boom boom everyone’s dead in seconds and I’m alone with my thumb where the Sun don’t shine

We can’t throw an entire plat down a hill and then act shocked when a single field gun levels 2 squads.

[mossy atlas]

I think i can start to copy and paste my precious messages... 1. THE AI REACTS TO SUPRESSION! 2. USE COVER DON´T PEAK FOR MORE THAN 2 SECS...(If taking shots) 3.USE YOUR BRAIN....

MGs will be able to kill an entire squad in a few seconds if everyone is skylining... So get doen and fall back. It isn`t accurate fire but it is a lot of close fire which can hit you and will hit you.

[novel rain]

You don’t HAVE to engage, remember that

[mossy atlas]

Marksman have accurate Wapons and are accurate. THEY WILL KILL YOU AFTER 2 OR 3 SHOTS!!!!!

so get your fat ass behind a tree or hill or Rock or behind the other dumbass who is trying to 1v1 a Sniper

xd

And the AI will use Soft and hard Cover...so they might be in Bushes. They are not invisible. They are just Hiding

btw sorry for caps

[ocean hazel]

Yes, going down a hill straight towards an objective seems to be about the worst tactical decision you can ever make.

[mossy atlas]

We use Human wave tactics so yeah... we fight Russians with their own Strats

[novel rain]

They know it all too well. We get read like a book

Warhammer ahhhh tactics

Except we’re the guardsmen

[mossy atlas]

like i have seen 1 maybe 2 assaults where we didn`t use Human wave tactics...we always loose so many guys because we can just push...

[novel rain]

Imagine if there was a cap to how many people we could throw at a point

[mossy atlas]

that would just mess everything up haha

[novel rain]

Worst case scenario

I try to keep everyone together as FTL but you really do gotta grab people by the ear sometimes

[mossy atlas]

And this isn`t even Good AI....It is still stupid on the Squad level etc

I can`t imagine what will ahppen if Squad fsm gets released

we will just stand there and get Flanked to death...at least that is my guess

and encircled

[split spruce]

Easily encircled

[hushed lintel]

Human wave tactics but you only get half way to the point before being pinned down

[spring merlin]

Yeah, I got pissed and decided to one life yesterday because my Squad was ordered to push down hill with sparse cover, while a tank sat below us. and then everyone was shocked when the tank fucking wiped my entire squad out.

[mossy atlas]

wow it seems that dumb decisions will have consequences xd

[novel rain]

The whole beginning of that push was botched bro we had 3 tanks on us before we even reached the plat rally 😂😂

The drivers of those tanks tbh

[spring merlin]

Yeah, and I get it. That's not an AI issue, that's a leadership issue.

I have 2 issues with the AI, and one with how they spawn (But that's becasue we use Human wave tatics)

1: AI through grass, like it doesn't exist. Very frustrating for pushing hill tops.

2: the fucking Level 8 full body suits they have on

The spawn issue: 1-2 T series tanks, 2-3 BTRs/BMPs, atleast 1 AA vehicle, and probably a Vodnik at nearly every objective feels excessive. Of course the AI fucking does a full on vehicle assault because even with a full server they have the armor advantage each objective we proc.

[mossy atlas]

1. can be fixed with the Ai cant see through grass mod at least i hope so. 2 will hopeully be adjusted. and yeah vehicle spawning...i have no opinion on that i can live with it

[spring merlin]

I can live with it, if people start learning how to AT a tank that has fucking ERA. Watching At4 rain down on the strongest spot of a tanks is fucking annoying as fuck.

[mossy atlas]

yeah the tanks are bugged for maybe 10 percent of ground to ground hits...but if you shoot with light AT at the fucking front of the tank you will not even scratch it haha

[static haven]

The AI decided that 10 guys trying to take a town warranted a response of 3 T90s, 2 T80s, 3 MTLBs, and 3 BMPs today. there was only 10 of us on the server in total

[mossy atlas]

seems legit

[static haven]

It doesn't feel like theres any difference if we prox a military base, a capital, or a town. Taking a town should not be as difficult as taking a captial or a military base imo

[midnight holly]

It’s usually because with towns and stuff we usually have to proc multiple objs

[nova mango]

You get a lot of trees in your flight plan? 🤔😂

Other than the one you got OGRE to chop down the other day.

[wicked pivot]

Well said. Only 2 things that doesn't make sense to me and it's more of a game issue than a situational or skill.

1. AI wear level 4 body armor...and so does their face. I have several clips of me shooting AI in the head/face over 12+ and they still do not die. Also, have a clip of a AI surviving a Shade mortar round on a GMG.
2. The fact I can be in a Ghillie in the thickest shrub and be walked over by my own guys but the AI can see me 800m away through the grass where I can't see them is a little bizarre especially if they are being suppressed by others or shot multiple times.

Other than that. I think you came pretty close to nailing this on the head. Unfortunately, this is a public server with civi's going against advance military tactic AI...can't expect to win against them when more than half the population doesn't know battle tactics 101. Not trying to use that as a excuse but it's a variable that can't be overlooked.

[mossy atlas]

Point one completely right but that isn't an AI issue at least not directly. It is just an RHS issue or desynchronization thing. No clue how to fix that. 2. That is just a Arma issue. Not sure if cf_bai adds clothes as factor but I know that in vanilla it doesn't matter what you are wearing.

[mossy atlas]

And what tactics? Haha they are only able to suppress do local flank manoeuvres and use cover haha

There is nothing that goes beyond the individual soldier

The rest is vanilla. Soldier fsm is just the survival of each soldier. Squad fsm will be about tactics and coordination with other squads. But squad fsm is still being developed haha

[wicked pivot]

That's the conclusion I came to as well.

[wicked pivot]

It will always be developing. Old players leave, new players come. flanking maneuvers and cover is a type of battle tactic. Simple but effective if done correctly. Which is why most are struggling because they get tunnel vision.

I'm not arguing on the matter with you. I agree with what you've said before, the only thing I believe is being over looked is the perspective.

[mossy atlas]

Yeah i agree new Players will have a hard time. But they will adapt. This is a Public server and its goal is to make a Semi-Realistic Libaration campaign. And DCO is the best fit because DCO is developing a new Libaration mode. And if it to hard for some people then it just is what it is. I dont think we should lower the difficulty just because new people struggle. If they strugle we struggle. And the only effective solution is to teach them. That is the job of the SL or TL. If these people won`t learn and just complain it is their problem.

Because i think no one wants a COD experience here where the AI is stupid and cant hit shit in a realistic way. The people that complain that they die way to often because the ai is too accurate are the ones who search for no cover and skyline. (Most of them) I never had that problem. I also do stupid stuff but if i die i nearly always notice my mistake. Sometimes i was in an open field, i didnt check a house or i just walked in front of a gmg. It happens but i dont complain. If there are game breaking things i would complain. But i havnt seen any yet...

And if we still only work on a squad level 90 Percent of the time we will get fucked every time. This is why SL need to communicate with other squads and flank supress for other squads etc.

[mossy atlas]

Oh

btw.

One of our Devs has started to "8) Redo bulletTracker" i had no time to ask him what exactly he means by that but it might help with the Invinsible stuff (taking 8 Headshots)

[ocean hazel]

Yes, trees are my flight plan. But that one in particular had to go. 😂

[barren nacelle]

Opinion from observing; many players tend to have dogshit situational awareness and don't properly cover sectors or keep as near 360 security as possible, or adjacent/supporting squads aren't properly calling things out to others

A majority of the time players end up getting flanked due to a combination of poor communication, target fixation, and poor local security

Not to say that there aren't times where the AI can and will laser people, but there are still plenty of instances where it's avoidable or can be mitigated

[split spruce]

It does not help that the platoon as a whole has this horrible culture of funneling 3+ squads through one breach on the objective and having enemies all over the place

[last elk]

so if the ai lose accuracy when suppressed why the fuck are they consistently turning and tapping me while actively eating rounds

[mossy atlas]

Doesn`t happen to me. You know i think this might beeeeee aaaaaaaa

https://tenor.com/view/skill-issue-gif-19411985

ok they eat rounds though

xd

that is true

[keen onyx]

I shouldn’t be having to put a full mag into AI for them to go down

[spring merlin]

Shooting them in the chest I can understand it. But the head. Bruh. I hope to see a note of this addressed cause it will make everything go smoother when the ai doesn't tank a 40mm direct hit.

[clever spoke]

I say skill issue. Yes I die alot more than I used to, however if I get shot at I find cover and approach target from somewhere else. 9 times out of ten I flank and get the kill

If you are getting shot from vegetation. Stop peeking it

Becuase they will aimbot ur face

[novel rain]

It’s all about that reposition

Although I do take the 50/50 you shoot at me I shoot at you type of fights sometimes. Gotta play with the chances ya know

[mossy atlas]

Guys we all know that there is an issue with the health xd

Enough please

There are like 40 messages which complain about that in this channel alone

[mossy atlas]

Yep dying is just a skill issue. The AI health thing can be buggy sometimes though

[mossy atlas]

Sometimes it works. But it is risky so yeah if you die don't complain haha

[novel rain]

I know what I’m getting into when I do it 😂 gotta give my medic some work

Just kidding about that last part

Mostly

[mossy atlas]

Haha

[clever spoke]

It took me a few days to stop repeeking enemies. But once you knock off that habit you start winning fights

Its alot like tarkov scavs

[novel rain]

God don’t give me ptsd I don’t wanna remember the scavs

[mossy atlas]

Fuck that game started it a week ago...got one one taped after 10 seconds into my Bear Raid

Started it again I had a break

Now I am making another brake xd

[mossy atlas]

Yeah always change your position...AND FUCKING HIDE IF A MARKSMAN SHOOTS YOU

[clever spoke]

Smoke and move. Like a magician

[last elk]

i should not have to change position on a target i have the opening shot on lol

also, if you peak corners and your head is the only thing the ai sees - it will hit you in the head majority of the time

[mossy atlas]

Yeah don't be the guy who tries to 1v1 a sniper which has the maximum accuracy possible...

[clever spoke]

Where else can he hit you though

He may hit the wall once but that next shot is hitting ur eye balls

[last elk]

thats the thing though, ai is just math - it will 100% hit you in the head

because it is destined to hit you

thats why we see so many headshots these last two maps it seems like

well, this map and last*

[mossy atlas]

The marksman will hunt you until they(and all other units) lose line of sight, you get killed or the timer runs out

[last elk]

we are not talking about marskman

normal ei

[mossy atlas]

I am though

[last elk]

to...?

[mossy atlas]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-not-your-business-lamar-freeman-tales-renee-s3e2-gif-26489696

[static haven]

All I'm saying is if we are going to be forced to have grass on and lose FPS to it, then AI should not be allowed to see through the grass

[last elk]

https://tenor.com/view/obama-fair-enough-nodding-yes-gif-5958816

[last elk]

easier said than done

[static haven]

theres literally a mod thats posted in here to fix it

[mossy atlas]

It isn't consistent enough

[last elk]

and admins have already said that it does not work consistently

[static haven]

its still better than what we got now

[keen onyx]

This and this only.

[static haven]

some consistency of them not seeing through grass is better than 100% invisible grass to the AI

[mossy atlas]

Complain to the admins haha

[last elk]

i have quite literally witnessed the things im describing happen to multiple people in this chat lmao

including people saying 'this doesn't happen to me'

[keen onyx]

100% Narco

[novel rain]

I’ve seen it happen too I’m with you

[mossy atlas]

Yeah nah the AI will see through grass and it can be tanky that is a fact by now haha

[novel rain]

The grass thing is in base arma too but I’d imagine DCO makes it worse

[mossy atlas]

https://tenor.com/view/juggernaut-deadpool2juggs-the-juggernaut-walk-gif-12392625

The Russians atm

[last elk]

the only concern i have other than the grass and tankiness is the ai's ability to place shots while being hit

[mossy atlas]

It doesn't make it worse. The AI is just better at suppressing and it will use the stuff it sees

/aiming

[last elk]

@mossy atlas u aware of any code that effects accuracy that is dependent on health?

might be a base arma thing as well, not sure

[keen onyx]

Keeping in mind this is AI that mostly has iron sights and doesn't tend to have NOD's - the fact they can hit 800m shots is already OP but that's not what people are complaining about..

We just want it to be a bit fairer when fighting amongst the trees etc - this comes from a guy who mains Medic slots and enjoys dealing with MASCAS's 😭😂

[mossy atlas]

If I haven't looked into that one haha I know that getting hit has an effect. But health in general idk

[mossy atlas]

That is just a line of sight issue. We have to deal with it. It will always be here until we find some mod that fixes it consistently

But I can tell you that we at DCO development will try and develop a new Line of sight system. Or to be exact a system which doesn't use line of sight to see detect enemies

[nova mango]

"this comes from a guy who is a shit shot and can barely wrap a bandage properly"

Fixed that typo for you Kieran 👍

[spring merlin]

Hey Sun, do you know if the ai really do see IR? Even when they don't have NV on their kit?

[keen onyx]

Fuck you Scottish welt

[mossy atlas]

But that will still take a while we have other priorities haha

[last elk]

flash an ir laser at an enemy who doesn't see you yet at night

your question will be answered

[nova mango]

Sorry mate, my Arma is updating so I'm bored out my mind 😂

[keen onyx]

I hope it corrupts - what you updating?

[nova mango]

Fuck knows, I think it's Prarie Fire.

[spring merlin]

If I ever get that opportunity I will. But in the meantime I am asking the guy who has his fingers in the code.

[keen onyx]

Only place he has his fingers

[last elk]

that has nothing to do with dco

base arma behavior

[mossy atlas]

Without nv the AI won't see them though. The script should check for IR laser and then Playable units with NV and if the unit sees the IR laser Origin it will get alerted

[last elk]

but yes, they do see lasers

[spring merlin]

I have seen base arma not react to IR. Hence why I was curious about it here.

[last elk]

i shined an ir flashlight at a group of enemies within 100m and they all immediately started firing

none of them had nods on

they stopped movement and started firing the moment the laser went on

[mossy atlas]

I can't tell you why that is the case haha I don't know every part of the script xd

[spring merlin]

No worries

[last elk]

just base arma behavior bleeding through i'd assume

[spring merlin]

I know it's a thing that occurs. Just was curious.

[last elk]

vehicles are the big reason ir stuff is a no-no

i regularly use my ir illums/lasers at night against infantry

[spring merlin]

Same. Once we get in direct contact I flash the laster to get my squad on target

[last elk]

flashing lasers for pid is mostly harmless

i engage with the laser a lot

cuz acogs are stinky and boring

[novel rain]

Wait you’re on the DCO team?

Or am I falling for bait

[last elk]

yeah he tries to squash bugs for em

[novel rain]

That’s awesome

We appreciate you

[mossy atlas]

Yeah i am not actively Developing stuff though i am still learning SQF Code. I am just PR for them and i search for Bugs.

[novel rain]

Still got mad respect for modders in any capacity yall keep this game alive

[mossy atlas]

This is all prework and gathering experience for arma 4

[mossy atlas]

Our final Goal is to make a Battalion level Battle simulation. Basically Liberation just way more complex

[last elk]

sqf coding is just c++ right

or is it c#

cant remember

[mossy atlas]

c++ helps but sqf is kinda it`s own thing lots of new stuff but it is easy to learn

"easy"

[last elk]

no arma code is honestly pretty damn easy to fuck around with lol

first game i ever actually learned how to reverse engineer code

like 10 years ago lmao

ai on the other hand, is a completely different story

[mossy atlas]

yep the AI is hard to code...so many things go wrong..,

[last elk]

so many variables

[clever spoke]

They may see through grass but they seem to not see through the bushy trees

I can be back there treating casualties withe enemy either on the other side 20 meters away not shooting at me