📚lore-discussion

[haughty stump]

but lies

[trim grotto]

Unveiling calls itself a metaphor before it even begins the tale, but that didn't stop 90% of people taking it at face value, despite also coming from the personification of all that we consider evil.

It faces the same challenge Dungeon Masters face, that players - or in this case readers - sometimes cannot fathom something being a lie, biased, or otherwise untrue without it being explicitly stated.

[haughty stump]

yea but unveiling, who was the witness writing it to?

[trim grotto]

Oh, that's easy. Us.

Remember the funny orb you stole from the Pyramid during Shadowkeep's final campaign mission?

Basically, after following the signal it emitted sending us to the Black Garden, it began to send us messages over the next few weeks. That became Unveiling.

That book ends with Eris thanking us essentially for ignoring the words of Unveiling and continuing to trust in ourselves, which a lot of people gloss over, haha

[haughty stump]

i don't remember what i ate yesterday but sure

[haughty stump]

ohhhh interesting

ok

the witness lowk dumb

why would bro " we, I do not understand"

when all it has been doing is lying and manipulating everything?

did it think itself like a parent?

oh i'm lying to protect you

or some bs

[trim grotto]

At the end of the day, it believed it simply couldn't fail. It had made it into the Traveler. It was on the very cusp of victory, and failed.

Even more so, it believed it was right. That this was the truest, most fitting end to an unpredictable, chaotic universe, defying the uncontrolled nature of the paracausal entity spreading negentropy.

Meanwhile we think the universe ending is a rather unpleasant event, suggesting Guardians are not fans of Douglas Adams.

[haughty stump]

Yea that's very very true

honestly

the more i think about it

The witness literally got overstimulated from the universe having so many things going on inside of it

it wanted to end it 😭

[trim grotto]

It's more that they, becoming it, felt that life had no meaning. Existing had no meaning. And without meaning, why exist at all?

Which is frankly idiotic, if I may be blunt.

[haughty stump]

jesus, how amazing was their golden age

that they felt at the end of it all

it had no meaning?

[trim grotto]

Well, before they turned on the Traveler, the Traveler wasn't being hunted. One could quite easily read it as their Golden Age long outlasted any that came since.

Their technological prowess was enormously past ours. They were themselves terraformers by that point.

It's no surprise that their tendency to cultivate civilisations and terraform worlds lead to their Pyramids using those same methods to destroy.

[haughty stump]

lowk reminds me of the d2 playerbasse

at the end of the grind

there was no meaning

pfffft

[haughty stump]

I wonder how happy it must have felt to have a purpose chasing the traveler

[trim grotto]

I think it was overshadowed by the hate for the Traveler. A hate so virulent that it lead the Witness to torture any species graced by the Traveler.

Needlessly extending their suffering.

[haughty stump]

yo i bet the traveler regretted lifting them 😭 , also why would it hate the traveler when it needed it for the final shape yk? i get hating the universe

well

no nevermind

it hated the traveler not the light prob

[trim grotto]

Mm. It hated the Traveler because it raised more life, more civilisations, caused growth when there was none. Meaningless life without purpose, and through the very existence of life, suffering ensued, because they are one and the same.

In its eyes, anyway.

[haughty stump]

very true

[trim grotto]

It also made it a hypocrite, because as I said, it would torture those graced by the Traveler, despite hating the Traveler for "causing suffering".

[haughty stump]

Yea deeply flawed. Then again what do you expect when you link a billion people's consciousness

[haughty stump]

If Nezarecs pyramid was giving the Neptune people nightmares

Bro his power could spread across the solar system?!

In which case why wasn't he giving nightmares to the people of the last city either

[slim girder]

It wasn't his pyramid. It was him.

He was inside the cloudark while the neomuni were asleep due to the city being invaded by the shadow Legion.

[trim grotto]

That said, his Pyramid was generating Nightmares. Look at Shadowkeep, and many of the Lost Sectors around the system.

We put in a lot of work to reign it in, though.

[haughty stump]

My fault I forgot. So is a part of his body on the moons pyramid?

[dim minnow]

not anymore

[haughty stump]

How did bro get there? Yk what before I ask I need to go find some info on light fall because I am clearly uneducated

[haughty stump]

Really?

[dim minnow]

his body was there after the Collapse, but then a group of Fallen cut up his corpse and stole it (with the exception of his head [minus one eye])

then the Witness got its hands on Nezarec's head at an unknown point in time, presumably during Season of the Haunted

that's my guess at least

as for how Nezarec was able to haunt the CloudArk, I don't think it was thouroughly explained

my guess is that it had to do with the fact he was already familiar with the Veil (and the Veil is what the CloudArk is built upon)

of course, we also gotta account for how the Traveler's terraformtion beam was able to revive him

it was established that Nezarec can come back from the dead, though Savathun cursing his corpse during the collapse made it difficult this time around

[haughty stump]

Do we ever go in the cloud ark?

[dim minnow]

no

[haughty stump]

Bro lightfall sucks😭 they could have made it way better and understandable

[haughty stump]

Season of the haunted?

[dim minnow]

it was during the Witch Queen year

before Lightfall

[haughty stump]

I forgot bro was in our solar system before lightfall

[dim minnow]

the Witness sent Calus to commune with the Lunar Pyramid and in the end of it we actualy went into a "Chantry" for Nezarec

maybe it was where his body was kept

[haughty stump]

I swear the elikniski got the biggest balls to mess with the final god of pain's corpse

[frigid sparrow]

pretty easy to mess with a corpse when its

yknow

a corpse

[haughty stump]

yea but it's still Nezarec's. messing with dead beings bodies, has always had consewquneces in destiny

rhulk's remains

uhhh

Oryx's body

hell nezarec's body parts were powerful relics

oh ahamkara bones how could i forget

[trim grotto]

Well, they did this many years ago.

Before any of those references came into play

[haughty stump]

i thought we only recenlty discovered the pyramid in shadowkeep

did the fallen know long before?

[trim grotto]

We did, yes.

Some of the Fallen found it long before.

[haughty stump]

wow god damn

[dim minnow]

also iirc Toland knew it was there for a while

granted he was a little flickering Light with free reign over where he went so it wasn't that hard for him to find

[slim girder]

Bro has the equivalent of a dumpsters worth of land in the ascendant plane

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah but he's shmovin around everywhere

The dreadnaught? The nine realms? The moon? The shattered throne? It don't matter

[slim girder]

I don't think he's in the nine realms. Not all flashing ascendant plane lights are confirmed to be him lol

[frigid sparrow]

Nah it's him during prophecy

There's a lil text blurb that says it's toland

On the bottom left corner

[slim girder]

I see. My mistake then. I guess since the taken are in that dungeon Toland must just hover around them wherever they are

[frigid sparrow]

The nine grabbing toland from watching TV in his ascendant realm to help the guardian because they're bored

[slim girder]

You assume he even has a TV. Toland is equivalent of that homeless dude who just appears randomly to watch the latest battle between other people way more accomplished than him.

He watches, rambles his nonsense and then whisks away to appear again in some other place

[frigid sparrow]

He's got his own little hotel room

Bed, fridge with infinite food, TV at the end of the bed, a desk to the side

[slim girder]

Nah he's got more like a dumpster home

Just a tiny lil island in the sea of screams

[frigid sparrow]

Nah he's got his own ghost room

[haughty stump]

Edge of Fate is so confusing

First we meet this Lodi guys

He says "see you around"

Then we immediately find him again

-which is confusing cause why does it seem like something was supposed to happen in between that?-

Then the whole place is confusing

Who are these people? And what is this place?

He then says "all I know is that I'm from earth and I have a family" but when we first met him he didn't know what earth was

Then he tells us to drink something but then don't drink it but place it

Like dude this whole thing is confusing😭

[slim girder]

It will make sense. Just keep playing. Lodi is a very deep character and is definitely one of the best we've had in a while

As for Lodis ramblings he is "messed up" by the nine so some things he says might not make complete sense rn

[jagged badge]

That’s because he’s still learning and understanding the Aionian language iirc

Yeah I’ve just gone and checked that moment again

No offence but that is kinda clear from the surrounding dialogue

It’s confusing while he says it but he immediately follows up and you can pick up on the fact he’s learning a new language and trying to translate for us

[dim minnow]

when we first meet him, Lodi is engaging what is known as the Odysseus Protocol

[slim girder]

The Aionians language is similar to Finnish according to Lodi.

[jagged badge]

I imagine they’re actively playing through the campaign rn

So avoid spoilers

[dim minnow]

ah I see

[dim minnow]

are you still playing through Edge of Fate?

just want to make sure

[jagged badge]

Was that the Aionian’s or Eliksni?

[slim girder]

Aionians

He says this right after saying how the Aionians have been a big help to him

[jagged badge]

The full dialogue is “I’m staying with the locals (the Aionians) for a while — time distortions all over this place. The Eliksni make it hard to traverse further out. Fascinating aren’t they? You know their language structure’s similar to Finnish?”

So I could see how it could be the Aionians but I’m fairly certain it’s referring to the Eliksni no?

Ah here’s another thing

Sarsion in the Cryptarchy server has mentioned that Finnish line a lot while he’s been trying to translate Eliksni himself

[slim girder]

The eliksni already use english though. The Aionians are using a whole new language that they've developed after being on Kepler for so long

So that could have been derived from Finnish

[jagged badge]

The Eliksni have their own language

They don’t just speak English

[slim girder]

Yes I know but I meant the eliksni we speak with on Kepler are using English.

[jagged badge]

Not exclusively

[slim girder]

Also the archon is chanting in english. Iirc most if not all eliksni on Kepler are now infected and have "given" themselves to the archon to be used as vessels whenever he needs.
Also Lodi has spent the most time with the Aionians so that was just my assumption of who he meant.
"Yeah I've been staying with the Aionians lots because of the eliksni making it hard to go further out. Their language is similar to Finnish"

Like he's not talking about the eliksni language he's just acknowledging it's hard to move away from the Aionians due to the eliksni threat on Kepler

[jagged badge]

I get that interpretation of the line without any other knowledge or context

But it is about the Eliksni and their language

[haughty stump]

Yea I am

So lost

And so boring

Makes me wanna go and do taken king

Again

OH FUCK I NEVER FINISHED ROI

[lofty badge]

are the Aionians heavily cybernetic since they never remove their helmets?

[slim girder]

No. They are still humans. They just worship science and technology

They are golden age humans who have been there for so long they essentially created a whole new culture

[upper latch]

tech for the tech god
ram for the ram throne

[lofty badge]

and never speak english either? at least we never hear any of them do

[slim girder]

It's been thousands of years. I'd imagine the English language would have been phased out entirely.

[slim girder]

"Bless the anomaly"

Literally their version of "Praise the omnissiah"

[lofty badge]

lol

so, where did the Pikers get paracausal weapons from? did they get them from stealing Imperium things and mabye some house of Salvation tech?

[slim girder]

Most likely stolen I presume. With darkness being a lot more common place in the system more people are getting their hands on weapons that utilise those energies.
Even the city foundries are getting creative and experimenting

[lofty badge]

makes sense, also where do you think it will go with the growing anti Vanguard stuff in the city?

[slim girder]

No clue tbh. My best guess is that there will be a breaking point for some of the city people but I'm not expecting a full on civil war or anything.

[lofty badge]

true, full on civil war would lead to our guardians mass murdering the opposite side

[upper latch]

if they do anything it'll be another Vanguard v. Drifter event situation where #NothingEverHappens

[lofty badge]

Vanguard loyal guardians when the citizens try to kill Zavala:

https://tenor.com/view/lord-of-the-rings-wizard-saruman-so-you-have-chosen-death-gif-24634148

[upper latch]

i don't imagine there'd be any violence from the people of the last city against the vanguard really

they've seen the gods these mfs have killed

and eliksni are well aware of saint 14

[lofty badge]

yeah, unlesss more of those People join Dredgen Bale and become darkness users

but then they stop being people of the last city in that case

[upper latch]

that'd be cool nonetheless

like another FWC lady type shit

forgot her name

ykw i feel like that's one of the only in-Sol options they have for a new big story

having the threat come from within the last city

[lofty badge]

yeah

• would be cool to fight more evil humans?

[upper latch]

EoF and Renegades were both entirely disconnected

[lofty badge]

yeah

[jagged badge]

Entirely?

[upper latch]

from how previous expansions during light and dark were, i think, yeah

also yk EoF was the furthest we've been out

mostly what i meant

[jagged badge]

Renegades happens because the Drifter has a vision due to being Nine-Touched in EoF. VI only acts with Bael because it wanted its own Weapon, not us as the rest of the Nine decided

[slim girder]

Idk I still believe he was talking about the Aionians but just gave a passing mention that the eliksni were making it hard to go out further.
Like we're walking in their settlement and he's talking about how the Aionians have been very helpful to him so he's obviously had a lot of time amongst them and been talking or at least trying to understand and talk with them. Why would he just immediately divert to eliksni language?
Not saying you are wrong that's just my stance on it is all.

[upper latch]

oh right yeah it's IX IX IX rn i forgot

[jagged badge]

Renegades also carries on from EoF in that we finally get a lead on how to “bind the Nine”

That’s the current throughline of the saga. III’s death and preventing our extinction because of it

[slim girder]

III's death is the beginning of this new saga.

[upper latch]

wait so how many of the IX are dead/not in the fight rn then

[jagged badge]

In the context of the dialogue, he mentions the Eliksni and then brings up the side note of them being fascinating and about what he’s learned of their language. Remember they’re the first aliens Lodi has ever met. He would find them extremely fascinating

[slim girder]

Only III is dead.
Rn it is the outer orbits vs inner orbits

[upper latch]

so VI is fine because Bael is fine and we continue against VI in Shadow & Order ?

[slim girder]

He would also find a whole new civilisation on a different planet fascinating to. Everything would be fascinating to him after being ripped through time.

[jagged badge]

Sure

But the fact is the Finnish comment is about Eliksni, because Sars has used that as a pretty key clue in his efforts of translating Eliksni iirc

[slim girder]

Idk who Sars is. I'm not in that discord.

[jagged badge]

He’s a guy who’s been working on figuring out this Destiny conlang stuff since like House of Wolves

And Bungie actually used work he did in game

[slim girder]

So he'd be one of the guys trying to translate the dread rn?

[jagged badge]

His belief is that the Dread/Pyramid language is intrinsically linked with Eliksni

I’m not very great at remembering or summarising the specifics of what he’s done and worked out though tbh

[slim girder]

VI is fine but due to observing oryx, the dreadnaught and all the events from heresy has developed this ideology that violence will get it what it wants even though it doesn't understand sword logic at all.
As for Bael he is anything but fine, forced to be a weapon and is becoming more disfigured under his armour as time goes on due to him not actually being an emissary or weapon that the nine agreed upon.

[lofty badge]

Even tho only one of the dread units are confirmed to be twisted Eliksni?

[jagged badge]

It’s less about the Dread and more about the Witness/Traveler and the civilisations they’ve touched iirc

[upper latch]

yeah sorry, fine as in alive not exactly doing well lol

[slim girder]

Baels message has also not been helping the city tensions against guardians either

I won't say he's completely wrong in his words but his intentions are definitely not good

[upper latch]

he has a point

the last city are sooooo reliant on the vanguard

[lofty badge]

yeah

but that is like the only thing

he right about

and also the fact the vanguard lied lol

i mean i agree the Vanguard should not be in charge and work on having mortal factions rule the city again with vanguard helping with defense as useal

[slim girder]

It's not about reliance. It's about how a civilian is not equal to a guardian.
The guardians even though they do use their powers to protect the city are still in a position of power over the civilians.

[lofty badge]

even tho the guardians don't really abuse that power?

like the city is still a chill place to live

[upper latch]

there are still a lot of dark guardians or whatever they're referred to as

[lofty badge]

we don't have guardians walking around the city forcing people to do stuff in a opressive way

[upper latch]

i assume the city just aren't aware of them

otherwise this would've been going on for ages longer

[jagged badge]

While it’s not like straight up oppressing people, we do have a lot of examples of Guardians in lore who are kinda just bullies in general and “above people”

[slim girder]

Yes. We don't but even just by existing we are still in a position of power over the civilians of the last city.

[lofty badge]

true

[jagged badge]

Iirc Bael was really treated quite coldly by the Guardian who was his mother before

[lofty badge]

but have it not always been like that?

[lofty badge]

True, some guardians are A holes for sure

[upper latch]

well yes but that paired with bael and all the recent shit has bubbled it up to where it is now

[lofty badge]

yeee

too bad humanity need guardians or else they dead

[jagged badge]

The fact that they kinda widely have to be motivated into acting through loot and rewards is also somewhat of an indictment in a sense

[upper latch]

it was also the issue of him thinking she died and then seeing her and she never gaf about him

[lofty badge]

lol

[slim girder]

Pushed away when he tried to hug her. Traveler essentially showing off his dead mother in his face.
Bael does have a very valid crash out

[jagged badge]

You can’t exactly expect all Guardians in their numbers to all be virtuous people, they’re all distinct individuals ofc but yk

[lofty badge]

yeah

i just think the worst lightbearers got dunked on during the dark ages by iron lords

[upper latch]

it'd be cool if the vanguard were kinda pushed out from the last city

[slim girder]

Doesn't help we also live in a tower literally above everyone. (Yes i know it's the wall next to the actual tower but same premise)

[upper latch]

see how both groups end up trying to live on their own

[lofty badge]

Unlikly to happend unless Zavala is like ordering us to do it cause otherwise it might lead to guardians firing on humans?

[lofty badge]

tho yeah i agree it would be cool to see

[upper latch]

guardians won't fire on the city under the vanguard

i can't see any world in which that happens

[lofty badge]

yeah

[slim girder]

If a civilian threatens a guardian and especially their ghost. That's going to get a bad reaction from any guardian

[upper latch]

can a civilian really threaten them though?

i thought only certain weapons could kill a ghost

[slim girder]

A well placed shot can kill a ghost regardless of weapon

[upper latch]

hence why we aren't all just being merked and the only one we really see is Cayde

[lofty badge]

some civlians have been getting their hands on some such weapons

[upper latch]

oh wtf

[slim girder]

It's why our own ghost stays hidden.

Ghosts are very fragile and death to them renders a guardian lightless, mortal and severely weakened

[lofty badge]

yee

[slim girder]

A guardian in the city might not abuse their power but if push came to shove and a civilian with a black market obtained exotic went for their ghost. They could very well be forced to fire back.

And then things would just spiral from there

[lofty badge]

yeah exactly this

[ember storm]

If the tower just invested in some good mental health resources we wouldn’t be here

[slim girder]

We've already got lore on some civilians who seem truly convinced of their hate for guardians. So what happens if a madman just goes hail mary and attempts an attack on a guardian.

[ember storm]

That was a devourer bullet, paracausal power that actively eats light

[lofty badge]

yikess

[ember storm]

It was actually meant to just kill Cayde himself because it would’ve been a guaranteed oneshot

The hangman just saw Sundance and made the split second decision to kill her instead so the scorn could savor Cayde’s death instead

So while lots of things are able to kill ghosts, they’d just be normally shot and fall over by normal means

It’s why spider has a bunch of intact dead ghosts in his collection

[lofty badge]

i know it will never happend, but i honestly want some type of new faction or at least new enemy units that are humans who have fully turned against guardians like Bael

and just go full in on wanting guardians gone

[jagged badge]

I wouldn’t hold your breath for human enemies

[ember storm]

Actual paracausal powers will just cause ghosts to explode, like the devourer bullet, the traveler’s famous remote detonation, and the witness flexing their muscles

[lofty badge]

[jagged badge]

That reminds me though

What the fuck is Sere?

[slim girder]

Considering the weapons guardians use I don't think surrounding civilians want to see the aftermath of a crazy guardian hating civilian who tried to attack a ghost.

[ember storm]

He’s just a guy using energy via tech I think

[blazing wasp]

well, we know at least they're human or was a human

[slim girder]

Human. But enlarged due to VIs power. There's lore on this

[blazing wasp]

their current state is due to a mix of tech and some dredgen shaboingery

[ember storm]

His kill icon is Nokris’ arc blast instead of hive Lightbearer stormtrance, so

[jagged badge]

Oh so he was human huh

[blazing wasp]

yea we know he aint a lightbearer

[jagged badge]

I’ll reword my prior point then

[ember storm]

I mean yeah I don’t think Bael would want an actual evil Lightbearer on his team

[slim girder]

He is human. But he "consumed" an apprentice who disappointed him when he asked them to show their power. This consumption caused him to grow in size

[jagged badge]

I highly doubt Bungie will ever give us any normal humans as enemies. We’d probably see ones who are mutilated or transformed in the way Sere is

[ember storm]

You’d have to come up with a good argument for them appearing in gameplay

Like if it’s just one special dungeon boss or something that’s fine

We’ll never get an actual enemy type though

[blazing wasp]

theres conflict and tension but none severe enough that would warrant opposing human enemies

not exactly a lot of us to go around either.

there's less than half a billion humans on earth, yea?

[ember storm]

Shaxx hogged all the human pvp way back when

There’s nothing left

Another stunning waltz quip leaves the channel speechless

[lofty badge]

lol

so anyway is the Imperium still united or more heavly fractured atm?

[slim girder]

The imperium is still united for the most part. Though Bael and Lumes partnership is definitely showing cracks after the nightfall station was destroyed

Both want different things.

[lofty badge]

bet

[slow berry]

what would a human even do to us

shit they have would bounce off of a guardian and then explosive rounds firefly fatebringer turns them into a firework for free

[ember storm]

They could try shoulder charging us

I’m sure the physics engine would like that

[queen swallow]

Stab us with a praxic blade like Bael did to Drifter?

[hazy veldt]

who is that

aint no character i ever heard of

[slow berry]

lots of random named characters out here

most of them have no real direct story relevance and many more are one-offs

[queen swallow]

In this instance, they're a random Guardian working for the Spider. Paid off their debt to Spider by winning an unsanctioned SRL race

[slim girder]

You're right. But what would happen if that went down in front of other civilians and all the little children

[slow berry]

no friendly fire so they'd just see sparks duh

[trim grotto]

I hold to my constant point that someone enthusiastic enough can kill a Guardian and Ghost with nothing but a pointy rock
We're glass cannons with an Achilles Heel that floats

[jagged badge]

A good stray bullet could put down a Guardian

But then a Guardian can turn around and nuke a god with black hole lmao

To slightly exaggerate ofc

[upper latch]

the Guardian ain't stupid enough for something like that

unless the ghost revive animation thing is actually something they do and not just a game mechanic

pretty sure the player is the most accomplished guardian, we saw what happened to Cayde and Osiris, if anyone should be cautious of their ghost being sniped then it's the player

[trim grotto]

A Ghost actually has to be physically manifested and present at the body to revive someone, if that's what you mean.

That said, I don't specifically mean us, the player.

[upper latch]

I understand that but I mean the 45 seconds they just idle above your body at times depending on the activity

[upper latch]

mb

[trim grotto]

Not as such, exactly. One could view it through the lens of waiting for an opportune or safe moment to revive, either through waiting or protection.
However, Darkness Zones, the game mechanic, are in-lore, with two separate, equally valid explanations.

One is more literal - the Darkness is so oppressive it's difficult to revive. Simple enough.
The second is a bit more unusual, and it calls back to a theory produced by the Future War Cult. It suggests that a Ghost, unconsciously, revives a Guardian by copying a "blueprint" from a neighbouring timeline wherein the Guardian has not died. The more dangerous the scenario, the fewer blueprints there are, and the harder and longer it is to revive.

[upper latch]

oh is that why FWC lady was doing all those experiments with her alternate selves?

unless i completely misinterpreted that room lol

[trim grotto]

It's related, in a way. The Future War Cult were essentially founded upon use of The Device, fracturing ones mind across countless potential futures.
In practice this led to nothing but nonsense nobody could reasonably parse, but it didn't stop the FWC from crowing about how they foresaw the Red War.

It also had a tendency to drive the user insane. Lakshmi, admittedly, did not go insane from the use of The Device... Savathun gets the honour of driving her mad instead.

[upper latch]

savathun might be the best ragebaiter in destiny

[trim grotto]

She's had potentially billions of years to practice it

[upper latch]

she's like 5 for 5 for making people lose their head

[slim girder]

Pretty much her craft at this point. Getting angry at her literally gives her power

[upper latch]

so saint 14 mega buffed her

[slim girder]

Not in his case. Saint killed her multiple times over out of anger due to what she put him and Osiris through.
I'm talking more about the anger of being tricked.

[upper latch]

ohhhh ok

[frigid sparrow]

"GETTING MAD DOESN'T MAKE YOU STRONGER- THAT'S NOT- HOW IT WORKS!"

[jagged badge]

She doesn’t gain power from deception or imbaru without her worm anyway

As a Lightbearer, she just does it because that’s who she is fundamentally lmao

She’s too deep in the ragebait to stop

[haughty stump]

I heard it’s harder to kill a ghost, like it takes an extreme amount of force, only reason Sundance died was because I heard the sniper had some special ammo.

[haughty stump]

I mean, he was def tricked right? He thought bro was Osiris but he wasn’t.

[haughty stump]

Lmaoo

[jagged badge]

Misconception

The special ammo was intended for Cayde. It was a devourer round from Thorn, capable of one-shotting a Guardian and draining their Light. Even if the Ghost lives, resurrection is impossible

But when Cayde pulled out Sundance, the Rifleman swapped targets for the simple reason of cruelty

To kill Cayde’s truest, closest friend in front of him and prolong his suffering and his death

[haughty stump]

There is no way the gun that’s rampant around crucible can destroy a guardian without killing their ghost?!

[haughty stump]

Also I thought it was a void sniper shot

[haughty stump]

Damn.

[trim grotto]

We ourselves made a copy of Thorn. A weaker, more controlled version based on the design of the second generation Dredgens.

It was the original Thorn that would slaughter Guardians so effectively. That Thorn was destroyed, eventually found by us, and we cleansed it and turned it onto Lumina.

[jagged badge]

Yeah that Thorn was singular

[trim grotto]

Now I'm picturing a rose with a single giant thorn

[blazing wasp]

every rose has its thorn, not thorns

[haughty stump]

Oh yea now I remember, wasn’t last word the gun to defeat thorn?

Side note I suck with the last word holy 😭

It lowkey should have a catalyst

[trim grotto]

Shin Malphur (The Man With The Golden Gun, owner of the Last Word), was the slayer of Dredgen Yor, yes.

[jagged badge]

If it’s the Last Word, why am I speaking more now?

Checkmate Vanguard

[haughty stump]

Wasn't shin that guy who pointed thorn at the drifter? Whatever happened with that?

[blazing wasp]

i believe that was just some dredgen

with a thorn copy

[dim minnow]

wasn't Shin, he was an unnamed Shadow of Yor

also as Banjo said, the Shadows of Yor use replicas of Thorn, not the real deal

[haughty stump]

yea ik it was a copy cause the real one is long gone

[trim grotto]

I believe at the time of that scene Shin actually was in possession of it; though we found it, destroyed, shortly afterwards.

Regardless, yes, it was a copy in the cutscene.

[ember storm]

i ate those food

[slim girder]

It's been transformed into lumina now. So you are still technically holding it.

[lofty badge]

Are all imperium forces under the Totality Divsion just manipluated cannon fodder from other branches of the Imperium?

[slim girder]

What do you mean by this?
The imperium holds the original cabal ideal that psions are nothing but slaves to the cabal. Totality division doesn't have this and their leader is a Psion instead. Other psions/agents within the imperium supply Intel to Rao

[lofty badge]

I mean i remember some lore where Rhao talks about that some Imperium forces don't even know they do the dirty work of the Totality division and Rhao

[slim girder]

Well that could be due to them just being clones. Cabal utilise cloning tech a ton.
Also that helps keep the imperium in the dark about the totality divisions plans.

[lofty badge]

true

I like how the leaders of the Syndicates seem okay with us mass murdering their crews and high ranking members on bounty jobs and such

[slim girder]

That's because they don't know it. That's the whole thing about organised crime.

Anonymity can be bought

[lofty badge]

that does make sense, + we have Spider as our Patron

[slim girder]

There are many guardians in tharsis output. And a lot of our jobs are more along the lines of smash and grab and exit.

[lofty badge]

yee

[lofty badge]

also from a story and lore aspcet, is there a Syndicate you dislike the most? Not meaning their lore is bad or anything

i just dislike the Pikers cause they betrayed us in that one campaign mission

[slim girder]

I also dislike pikers but mainly because of aesthetics. The biker gang isn't really catching my interest even if their leader Riliks is trying to rizz up Eido..

Which is a very funny side plot

[lofty badge]

fair tbh

[remote cedar]

Biker Gang?!?!? You guys dont know anything about Star Wars do you... Pikers is cannon in Destiny 2 and Star Wars... Watch the new Maul Episodes...

[lofty badge]

bro you just hopping to asumpsion

the Pikers are not the Pykes

the Pikers in destiny 2 are clearly more of a high tech biker gang rather than a spice trading cartel

[slow berry]

Pykes in destiny are not cannons, theyre floating bikes

[remote cedar]

Im not saying your wrong I was im plying it...

[lofty badge]

wut?

[remote cedar]

NM

[lofty badge]

https://tenor.com/view/reaction-meme-stan-twitter-buckspendragon-funny-awkward-gif-11781965830001468430

[jagged badge]

What on Earth did I just read

[haughty stump]

Why did shin have thorn😭

[blazing wasp]

killed the guy who used it

[jagged badge]

He’s hardly gonna leave a gun that dangerous lying around

[slim girder]

It "speaks" to anyone near it. He even had the box it was sealed in covered with hive sigils on the inside

[haughty stump]

Ah true

[haughty stump]

Why couldn't he destroy it?

[blazing wasp]

maybe but it was a good thing he didnt

[slim girder]

Because as evil as it was Shin recognised it was a source of power and that if handled right could be used against other threats.

[ember storm]

Could I theoretically make a bunch of nova bombs so small they’re like sand particles and just treat them like a cloud that remote detonates

[slow berry]

I don't think so.

[junior kernel]

just got to cutscene 7 in the Renegades campaign but I cant for the life of me understand what VI is talking about
Im hoping someone can clarify it for me without going into campaign spoilers

iirc in EoF ||VI voted against us as a weapon||, and now they crafted a ||more "compliant" weapon||
on the other hand, they ask us to ||smear the new weapon and thank us for continued alignment?||
is it like, they just want him to ||build the ship to cause extinction but then Im supposed to kill them after the extinction?||
also, when it says ||"with III's death, protection negated"||, are they saying they will no longer protect us? or more like ||III's vote biased the nine towards us|| and now that they cant vote we arent being protected anymore?

[queen swallow]

With III's death, it means that votes can only be a tie with eight of The Nine left

[junior kernel]

so is that what they meant when they said "protection negated" or is it referring to something else?

[queen swallow]

Or, rather, not "only" be a tie, but are much more likely to tie

[queen swallow]

There's two factions, the Inner Orbits of Sun (IX), Mercury (I), Venus (II), Earth (III), and Mars (IV) and the Outer Orbits of Jupiter (V), Saturn (VI), Neptune (VII), and Uranus (VIII). The Inner Orbits generally like us and with III being dead, it leaves it as a general tie of 4v4

As for the consequences of the protection being negated, well, we see just what will/would happen when VI breaks away to make its own "weapon"

As for the part about smearing Bael and continued alignment, I got nothing

[remote cedar]

I think he gets it

[lofty badge]

Do we know how long the Pikers have been around? Like were they founded before or after the red war

[queen swallow]

Pikers as in just the regular vehicle dudes in patrol have been around for forever. Pikers as in the syndicate are post-Red War, probably even post-The Final Shape, though I'm not sure on when they formed definitively.

Ishtar and Destinypedia have not much on the syndicate

If there is anything, it'd be in the text cards that Ishtar doesn't seem to track

[wraith kernel]

Probably either after or around the same time as Kell's Scourge syndicate became a thing

[slim girder]

Didn't we see Riliks at some point pre renegades? I could've sworn just like mithrax we encountered riliks somewhere

[queen swallow]

We've met someone named Rilliks, Instrument of Xivu Arath

But that guy had two L's

[lofty badge]

Might be that

Also, are any fallen Enslaved to Xivu or still around? Same goes for the fallen who was on Titan
When it was taken, and came back insane, are both groups dead?

[dim minnow]

Xivu might still have some Wrathborn laying around

she'll probably use whatever proxies she still has given she's vulnerable now without her Throne World

[slim girder]

Xivu has to be very careful with her moves. She didn't even appear in heresy instead sending an envoy and speaking through it.

[lofty badge]

makes sense, think she still have the means to turn more non hive into wrathborn?

[slim girder]

Yes. But obviously we would most likely be there to put a stop to those rituals

[lofty badge]

true

[lofty badge]

ant theories on what kind of Fallen that are still wearing House Salvation colors, brainwashed and Fantical cultists? or remaining Eremias Loyalists? or just outlaws?

[queen swallow]

More than likely remaining members of Eramis's faction. They were folded into the Witness's side of things once Eramis left to go build New Riis

[lofty badge]

so basicly just cultists remains now? 🤔

given one can assume those still loyal To Eramis left with her?

[queen swallow]

Maybe but if they're still fighting for/with the Witness then possibly not all of them left with her. House of Salvation was more fractured than the rest of the regular houses so some could have gone with her and some could have stayed behind

Sorry, not fractured

They were more organized but from disparate backgrounds

[lofty badge]

yeah

i am kinda asking cause i make up reasons why they still around whenever i fight House Salvation mobs ingame lol

( kinda to cope for Bungie keep the world a bit static)

[queen swallow]

If you're wondering why they're still there after you killed them, the answer is because video game
If you're wondering why they're still there in general, that depends on where you're finding them

[lofty badge]

lorewise..

could a hunter if they wanted to start focusing on using their powers the way a warlock does?

basicly if one can switch from hunter to warlock in terms of combat style?

[jagged badge]

To my knowledge there are no examples of anything even close to that happening

[lofty badge]

i see

[haughty stump]

bro why is lodi so upset he doesn't know when the Collpase happened lmao 😭

this guy is so confusing

he knows something one moment

doesn't know anything else

then doesn't know something

then cares about dumb stuff

matter of fact idk what is happening this whole caampagin?

[dim minnow]

Did Lodi explain how he got to Kepler yet?

[haughty stump]

nah he said he was just teleported ig

Orin says

he is to be a emissary

see this is what im saying

he just said he doesn't know anything

all of a sudden he's an expert on the Anoieans

like this whole thing feels like time is collapsing

[dim minnow]

I'm trying to make sure I'm not revealing anything you haven't gotten to yet

[haughty stump]

so you're saying it's all going to make sense once i finish it?

intersting

it's not like other campagins

where we learn as we go

[dim minnow]

yeah

[haughty stump]

im surprised Ikora or the gurdian aren't even more confused or asking questions

[dim minnow]

have you spoken to Lodi after he freaked out about the Collapse?

[haughty stump]

doing it rn

but first talking to ikora

idk why she wants the people to evacuate

[dim minnow]

alright, once you speak to him there, you will learn something very important

[haughty stump]

like whats going on?

[dim minnow]

you know how there's a singularity on Kepler?

[haughty stump]

they keep talking about that

no one is explaining

it

[dim minnow]

well, it's unstable and will engulf the entire area

[haughty stump]

or maybe i forgot

[haughty stump]

like wormhole?

[dim minnow]

the strangelets you've been collecting are meant to stabilize it

[dim minnow]

...maybe

but probably more like a black hole

basically, we don't want the Singularity to expand

[haughty stump]

oh those things

is there like a phyiscal hole i can

[dim minnow]

we also need to get to the singularity for reasons relating ot the Nine and the invitation we recieved from them

[haughty stump]

see the isngualirty>

singularity*

[haughty stump]

hmm

interesting

[haughty stump]

yo Lodi just said he lied to us

[dim minnow]

you'll see it later don't worry

[haughty stump]

such a unique campgain

never had something like this before

[dim minnow]

yeah, I actually like how complex the story is

Renegades is also pretty cool

you know, I actually got to meet the VA for Dredgen Bael (from Renegades) yesterday as LVLUP Expo

even got an autograph

[haughty stump]

whats that ?

[haughty stump]

YOOO W

Lodi is from the past?

[dim minnow]

no, Bael is someone else

[haughty stump]

YO HOLD UP HE CAN TRAVEL THROUGH TIME?!

[haughty stump]

sorry i was talking about the story

[dim minnow]

not exactly

[haughty stump]

ngl i thought bungie was going to fumble the story after the final shape

but maybe not

[dim minnow]

yeah, from the 1960-70s

[haughty stump]

what year is the guardian in?

oooo cutscene

[dim minnow]

we deon't know the exact when, other than that is was around the time of the Cold War

[haughty stump]

yoo

real humans

[dim minnow]

something to be noted is that Bungie made it clear they don't like using exact dates or timeframes since it could put constraints on them

it's why we don't really know how far into the future Destiny takes place it

at least not specifically

we know it's from a range of several hundred years to around a thousand

[haughty stump]

what?! you're telling me they couldn't have done something as easy as plan a whole 15+ year storyline before they made it lmao

😂

[haughty stump]

oh okay makes sense

wait so Lodi

is jumping from timestream to timestream?

[dim minnow]

to be exact, Lodi was sent forward in time by the Nine

because, as Orin said, they want him to be their new Emissary

[haughty stump]

i forget, why they need that?

[dim minnow]

an Emissary serves as a vital way to interact and speak with us

[haughty stump]

they can't do that one their own?

[dim minnow]

after all, it is rather difficult for sentient clouds of Dark Matter to understand us lower dimensional lifeforms

[haughty stump]

ohhh

very true

[dim minnow]

there is some important info that we had on the Nine from a while back, but I do believe they went over some of that in Edge of Fate

like how the Nine are kinda divided into two groups

one group wants to try and learn how to use the Light like Guardians, so they sent out and agent (like Xur) or an Emissary (like Orin) to reach out to us

[haughty stump]

hmmm interesting

[dim minnow]

the other wants to try and create a black hole so they can create their own worlds to rely on

you see, as powerful and expansive as they are, they are just as fragile

they are all bound to the planets and sun of the Sol system

the gravity wells of the planets gave them the ability to think, but the life that grew on these worlds was what gave them life

so if all life in Sol died, the Nine would die off with us

[haughty stump]

i wonder what the collpase did to them

[dim minnow]

well, there were survivors of the Collapse

[haughty stump]

on each of the world?

also you're telling me by some miracle

[dim minnow]

well, there's no life on the Sun

[haughty stump]

Rhulk didn't destroy any planet?!

[dim minnow]

so I don't think it has to be life on each planet or moon

just life in Sol in general

[dim minnow]

Rhulk can't just destroy a planet on his own, though he might be able to with the Upended depending on what it actually does

[haughty stump]

he cant?

whats the upended?

[dim minnow]

what he did to his homeworld was a result of him messing with the technology his people used to collect energy from their sun

[dim minnow]

he described it as something that had the power to "turn worlds upside down" whatever that means

it's basically a superweapon

[haughty stump]

is this in the raid

[haughty stump]

ohh intersting

[dim minnow]

also, Rhulk wasn't even in Sol in the first place

[haughty stump]

ngl i never liked the story line

of us

only beating rhulk cause he was irrogrant

like come on

at least let us use some mystrical power

don't just chaulk it up to something like that

[dim minnow]

well, we did turn his own Resonance against him in order to take down his shield

[haughty stump]

yea but the idea that "oh he didn't just kill us cause he was irrogrant" kinda annoys me, he should have saw a golden ticket to escape the throne world no?

[dim minnow]

I think wasn't quite out yet

it's just that we were stupid enough to get things in the Pyramid moving again

and we ended up accidentally powering the Upended up

[haughty stump]

yo we stuppid

eh thats just my opinion, i like it better when we outsmart our opponents while they are trying

gives us an actual sense of accomplishment

[slim girder]

I think the running theory was that this weapon is supposed to do what the witness did to some of planets in Sol when it arrived. "Flipping" them into the ascendant plane

[slim girder]

We do a lot of things in raids to get our enemies attentions.
Calus is really the only one who's raid was made by him as "challenges" for us. He delighted in watching us

[dim minnow]

Eater of Worlds started as a covert op where we infiltrated the Levi until Calus' forces found us. Then it turned to us killing some Vex as his request

[slim girder]

"Hey my ships engine is clogged, be a lad and unclog it please"

The "clog" being Argos the vex mind that was transforming nessus into a vex world.

Still think being inside the actual mouth of the Leviathan was such a cool environment for a raid

[lofty badge]

think the three Syndicates will appear in future story content?

[dim minnow]

there appears to be some set-up for it

Eido has a crush on Riliks
Zephyrus wishes to help us prevent the main Vex Collective from winning
and Rhao seems to be torn between her sympathy for us and the Imperium's grasp over Totality Division

[lofty badge]

intresting

[slim girder]

Each syndicate has characters with established depth. So just like Lodi I imagine we'll be seeing more of them for this new saga.

That goes for Bael and Lume as well

[lofty badge]

bet

[lofty badge]

How Unifed is the Pikers and Reformation? Like do they have infighting?

[slim girder]

Most likely yes. Some higher ranking members might have differing ideals but generally it does seem like they all get along for the most part

Pikers are all atheists and tharsis reformation are all vex who just wish to do whatever they want with their freedom.

[lofty badge]

true, The Reformation seems the most chill of the two

[slim girder]

They are. Though their leader according to Blue changes his mind about things a lot

[slow berry]

one of the lore tabs is zephyrus of the reformation playing russian roulette with rhe previous leader to kill him

[lofty badge]

huh

so..

can the Reformation make new self-aware free Vex

or do they recruit from Maya's collective?

given she likly still loosing hold of more vex even now

[slow berry]

I'm p sure they can't make more selfaware ones

Maybe they'll make a vex making machine or smth

[slim girder]

They do store radiolaria in these lil cubes you can find on the frontier in some places. Considering we fight them in those activities surely they have some kind of way to make more of themselves

I have a feeling it's both them grabbing more of Mayas vex under her nose and also manufacturing more of themselves in some way.

[lofty badge]

makes sense

How painful is it for a enemy to be shot and then die by a weapon of sorrow?

[jagged badge]

Probably on the level of stubbing your toe

It’s that serious

[lofty badge]

oof

[queen swallow]

Probably the same amount of pain you'd feel getting shot for realsies, plus the poison on top of that

[lofty badge]

lol

ye

think Maya sundaresh still has her forces searching the Plaguelands during Renegades and to present day?

[dim minnow]

story-wise, I think her plans there are done for

[lofty badge]

yeah very likly

[slim girder]

Very painful most likely.
Although there is a lore tab of a scientist who was screaming about being "reborn" after being shot/corrupted by a thorn replica that was being tested and apparently being almost happy.

Something to note about thorns poison is that it isn't just necrosis. It behaves like snake venom and turns your heartbeat into a death clock, the faster your heartbeat the faster the poison spreads.

[dim minnow]

I know Mael suggests that they were testing the real Thorn in that lore tab, but I still think Shin kept it under his watch the entire time

[slim girder]

No way to really tell tbh. I wouldn't put it past shin to consider letting people research it for safety. But on the other hand Shin knows full well how dangerous the OG thorn is even with no one holding it

[dim minnow]

even holding it is enough to make us feel sick

[slim girder]

The box it was in was even etched with hive symbols on the inside to keep it from possibly corrupting anyone

[slow berry]

By this point the prototype was closer to Osteo Striga, right?

Like yes weapon of sorrow but i doubt they were mucking around with the Actual Thorn

[slim girder]

Again no way to really tell. My personal theory was that the corrupted tissue samples Jana 14 took from her dying colleague "Leeched" onto her and as a guardian who would ofc have some kind of weapon that corruption then went from her hands into her Veist frame SMG turning it slowly into the Osteo striga and she only got more depraved from there

[trim grotto]

I'm fairly sure the lore tab refers to the actual Thorn.

Project day 2. I just got my first look at Artifact H-349. It's heavier than expected. More than a few people questioned if we even should study something with such a… dire legacy, but if we can't understand our enemies' tools, then we leave ourselves vulnerable to them.
Project day 30. Spectral analysis is back, and it's got nothing. The artifact doesn't operate like traditional Hive tech, which is our closest analogue. A cult of deranged fanatics can mass produce knockoffs, but we can't even tell you what it's made from.
Project day 65. Another accidental discharge today. We realized that Yor's little creation is hungry, so we fed it more.

[slow berry]

I always assumed it was a prototype rather to the Big T Thorn simply bc i though Shin had that thang on

[dim minnow]

according to Shin's own words, he kept it locked away the entire time he had it until he gave it to us

I've held this jagged weapon since that faithful day on Dwindler's Ridge. Kept it hidden away. Kept its secrets, kept its nightmares locked away where none could hear—none could be tempted. It's quiet now, except a low murmur, but its sickness remains. There were countless times I thought to destroy it—remove its threat from the playing field. But I knew it held a greater purpose, and I believe that purpose can be found and fulfilled in your hands.

of course, there is the possibility Shin wasn't being truthful since he had a tendency to lie quite a bit, but given that this excerpt is from Nothing Ends, I don't really think it's the case

[trim grotto]

While that is said to be the case, none of what's described here sounds like it's one of the copies. If I were to reconcile the two, I'd say he lent it to the Vanguard a single time, it went to hell because of Jana, and he reclaimed it.

[slow berry]

my theory is that its simply some other thing yor was working on

[dim minnow]

that's what I was thinking

[slow berry]

it could also just be bad continuity

[dim minnow]

they were saying the artifact was closer to actual Hive tech

[slow berry]

it makes me think it was some sort of simpler or more basic thing that would latch on to weapons to corrupt them

like some corrupted firing mechanism or smth

hence how it got onto a veist smg

[dim minnow]

isn't this the lore tab for Necrotic Grips?

[trim grotto]

Yes, it is.

[haughty stump]

quick question why does || drifter ask bael "where's your ghost" ||

[jagged badge]

Have you just watched the cutscene?

Also Mael hasn’t played Renegades

[haughty stump]

i mean i saw it on yt

shouldn't have

prob

cause i'm working on eof

[haughty stump]

oh i see

i realy hope Bael doesn't die

i love his character

[jagged badge]

Well the answer to that would be spoilers for you for Renegades

[haughty stump]

i see

i wonder if we see other dredgens

also what is a dredgen ?

i lowk forgot

i have the title

[jagged badge]

Well there’s multiple meanings for it

[haughty stump]

bael being anything less than a raid boss would annoy me

i want dude to be a perfect star wars villian

[jagged badge]

Dredgen Yor originally claimed the name, and he was just on his own. Later, Shin Malphur secretly created the Shadows of Yor, a group of Guardians who idolised Yor and gave themselves the title and wanted to follow in his footsteps. Shin did this so he could directly keep an eye on susceptible Guardians and put them down if necessary

I don’t want to elaborate too much on Bael because it’s also story spoilers for Renegades

[haughty stump]

tbf didn't dregen yor be the most evil guardian who killed his own ghost? then anyojne who likes him, and wanted to be like him, i mean at that point you don't need to keep an eye on him, they just straight evil

[jagged badge]

Yor didn’t kill his own Ghost

[haughty stump]

it's like joining a fascist party, don't need to know if you're gonna turn fascist, you alr are 😭

[jagged badge]

Vincent is still alive

Iirc

[haughty stump]

oh

so is yor still out there?

[jagged badge]

Also yes, Dredgen Yor’s Ghost is called Vincent

No

Vincent is an ally of Shin’s I believe, and actively will not resurrect Yor

[haughty stump]

the ghost can do that?

refuse the guardian?

[jagged badge]

The rez is entirely the Ghost. Not like the Guardian can do anything about that, being dead

[trim grotto]

Ghosts are people. They can make choices.

Plus, Yor threatened Vincent with death if he didn't leave.

[jagged badge]

Ah that’s also some good context too

[haughty stump]

interstingggg

[jagged badge]

I’m genuinely not that familiar with Yor and Shin’s story

[trim grotto]

he got lost in walmart

[jagged badge]

I should give it a proper read some day, I have it in the physical grimoire anthology

[haughty stump]

the actual books?

[jagged badge]

Mhm

[trim grotto]

metaphorical books

potential books

[haughty stump]

is there a chronological timeline of every single lore book in the game? like idk where the real books happen in between the lore books i see in destiny 2

[jagged badge]

I believe the first one has the Books of Sorrow and the whole stuff with Yor and Shin

[trim grotto]

I Can't Believe They're Not Books!™

[jagged badge]

The real books compile lore books and grimoires from the games

So the best place for both is the Ishtar Collective website

[trim grotto]

Well, we have release dates, but reading things literally chronologically in-universe would be rather confusing.

Best way to read the lore at this point is probably by-subject.

[haughty stump]

so real

and my subhject is chronological

😂

[haughty stump]

like all of them?

how much o

is it by subject

cause ik there are volumes

but

idk if each volume is a certain timeline, or a certain subject

[jagged badge]

On the flip side of that, I believe in the story of Presage’s lore book, Katabasis actually keeps getting resurrected by his Ghost even when he doesn’t want to be, as he’s always surrounded by Scorn. His Ghost got driven crazy by the funky experiments on the Glykon I believe

[jagged badge]

Not all of them. I can’t remember exactly what each of them contain, but I believe there tends to be a theming behind it

[jagged badge]

Not either exactly. The first grimoire has the Books of Sorrow and the tale with Dredgen Yor and Shin Malphur together, which are only kinda tangentially linked but also not really

[haughty stump]

ohh interesting

are they just words?

or do they got pictures>

[haughty stump]

ohh i see

well

gonna hve to buy it then

20$?

WHO TF DO THEY THINK THEY ARE

[trim grotto]

how much do you think books cost

[jagged badge]

Yeah that seems like a totally reasonable cost for a fairly sizeable hardback book

I got a bunch of them as Christmas gifts

[slim girder]

I thought about buying the collection.

Maybe next time they go on sale I'll pick them up

[haughty stump]

shi mabe like 10-15, if it was 250 pages i could see 20$

but its like 140

[haughty stump]

W gifts

wow they have comics?

[jagged badge]

There were some yeah

I’ve never read any of them actually

[haughty stump]

lol can't blame ya

comic collection for something like destiny

well it would depend on the artsylt

[lofty badge]

Are Thorn replicas as powerful as the Original and how are the Replicas made?

[trim grotto]

Explicitly not. They're weaker, more controlled. The original, even destroyed, made us physically sick when we held it.

As for how it's made? We actually had a quest for it back in the day.

We made our own Thorn.

You can probably find an old video on it somewhere

[lofty badge]

By taking a hand cannon and putting Hive remains on it?

[trim grotto]

More controlled than that. The original Thorn grew out of control, it was a corruptive influence. We built ours using ritual, ending with fighting Savathun's Song (the Shrieker) in the depths of Titan's New Pacific Arcology

Actually, I think we repaired a broken old one of the second gen Dredgens

Either way it was very much not like the original

[lofty badge]

Interesting

So do Thorn replicas lack the Hunger of the OG? I can also picture Eris help make Replicas that does no harm to its welder

But are the Replicas also Guardian Killers?

[trim grotto]

the fact that you see them in the Crucible answers the second question

as for the first, I'd need to do a bit of digging which i don't have full time for
but i expect it's restrained, lessened, if not wholly eradicated

[lofty badge]

Bet

[haughty stump]

More importantly what happened between shin having it and us destroying itv

Did shin drop it

Give it to us?

If so why don’t we ever see him

[trim grotto]

Because his writer, Jon Goff didn't want him to be a forefront character we physically meet. Shin left it for us to find.

[slim girder]

Thorn replicas still possess a hunger and are still very dangerous due to their corruptive powers. But just not kill a guardian permanently levels of danger.
All weapons of sorrow possess this hunger for violence

[slim girder]

Shin gave it to us because he felt we might be able to find its purpose. And we did by bathing it in light and turning it back into Rose which was the original hand cannon thorn came from and then transforming that into the Lumina exotic hand cannon

We took a weapon responsible for the deaths of countless guardians and innocent people and turned it from a weapon of sorrow into a weapon of hope

[queen swallow]

Didn’t we meet him in game once? When he gave us the Last Word?

[slim girder]

No. The closest to meeting him was us hearing a recording from him before he shot another guardian named Callum.

[lofty badge]

got cha, does that mean a Replica can also corrupt their wielder?

[slim girder]

Yes.
The whole point of the replicas was for people who experimented with that power. Within the Shadows of Yor if those guardians went too far and crossed the line they'd be hunted down by Shin and permanently killed.

[lofty badge]

I see, and our player guardian just remains within the line?

[slim girder]

Shin under another Alias was the leader of the organisation. This way he could watch others learn to use this dangerous power for good while also making sure those who fell to it wouldn't be able to use it for bad

[slim girder]

Correct. We resisted the temptation of the weapons of sorrow.

[lofty badge]

and now what ever replica a player uses is just a happy gun cause it gets to have endless bad guys to eat?

[slim girder]

It's a constant battle of will really. The weapons of sorrow will always be hungry.

And they will always try to tempt others

Just look at people such as Jana 14

[lofty badge]

got cha

so even by the time of Renegades, guardians using Thorn and weapons of sorrow Replica's are frowned upon?

[slim girder]

Not as frowned upon anymore with things such as stasis and strand being much more commonplace now.
It's all about who is using them now.

Using darkness is much more accepted but it will always have its risks.

[lofty badge]

makes sense

[lofty badge]

would it be impractical of the last city to focus on mass producing Frames and mabye even make new variants of them?

to help bolster the city's mortal human militia

[slow berry]

There's a good number of them, but there's bigger issues at hand

[slim girder]

New variants of what? Weapons of sorrow?
Because the foundries already make tons of weapons for the mortal people

[slow berry]

It would be like a country investing most of their money into their military industrial complex instead of things like making sure people are housed, or that they have food. And that would never happen.

[lofty badge]

i ment the robotic frames like the Redjacks lol

[slow berry]

Frames as in the robots

[lofty badge]

yeah

[slow berry]

They're called frames

[slim girder]

Ahh I see.
But yes we also already have tons of those too

[slow berry]

Redjacks are specifically Shaxx's combat frames

[lofty badge]

i was thinking "why don't they make more tanky frames that can take more hits"

[lofty badge]

yee

but true

shame the basic Frames are all we get

[slow berry]

Its just this

[lofty badge]

given humanity did't seem to invest more in combat robots

[lofty badge]

true

[slim girder]

Again we already have plenty of frames doing many different things around the city.

Much more important things to invest resources into

[slow berry]

one guardian is worth like a bajillion frames anyway

[ember storm]

good thing we have one super AI equipped with orbital cannons and warsats to protect us from all cosmic threats

surely he'll do everything he can to protect us

[slow berry]

had*

but we can make another one

[ember storm]

[slow berry]

give the anxious mess a gun

do it

[lofty badge]

Eramis and many other fallen's hatred towards the Traveler is 100% understandble, but did Eramis know the Witness was the one behind the attack on Riis and then sided with it anyway?

like.... is it easier to blame the being who abadoned you rather than the force that destroyed your home

🤔

[frigid sparrow]

It's kinda hard to act against your oppressor with a gun pointed to the back of your head

Eramis literally witnessed her friends becoming scorn and was faced with that same threat herself because of xivu and the witness

[lofty badge]

I ment more in Beyond light where she also started using Stasis and started not even giving two damns about her own people 🤔

like did't she know by then in beyond light it was a force of darkness that destroyed Riis? Again her hatred of the traveler 100% understandble

[frigid sparrow]

For one, knowledge of the witness wasn't even solidified until witch queen

Two, darkness haa the ability to corrupt. She saw a power that could be used against the traveler and took it without recognizing the costs to her and her people's wellbeing because she was too focused on getting vengeance for the traveler's flight from riis

[lofty badge]

She did't really have to know about the witness to go "i hate the traveler but should i use the same power that also destroyed my home..?" if she knew the whirlwind was a force of darkness

[lofty badge]

yeah that makes sense

[frigid sparrow]

Also, it was the hive who did the most damage on riis, not necessarily just some random forces of darkness

[lofty badge]

yeah i ment it more as how it might have been seen as just a force of darkness from the fallen's pov in case they did't by then know of the hive but yeah

[slow berry]

"force of darkness" is a human term

We called the Eliksni part of those forces of darkness, as well.

It was a catch-all term for all things from beyond the System

All Eramis would know is that she found this great new power that she could use

[ember storm]

Remember when matpat thought an idle dreg voiceline was calling guardians the darkness and proof the traveler was evil

A video that came out after taken king and the BoS

[queen swallow]

matpat made a Destiny video?

Finally, a worthy challenger for Byf

[lofty badge]

lol

Why did some Hive give themselves willingly to be taken by the Lord of every nothing? was it from a feeling of a lack of purpose after both Savathun becoming a Lightbearer, Xivu arath becoming mortal and the Witness's defeat?

[frigid sparrow]

which instance is this referring to

[lofty badge]

Heresy

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah no shit when in heresy

[slim girder]

The lord of every nothing was forcefully taking things

Like it transformed a darkblade in the sunless cell right in front of us

We also witnessed a ritual in the shrine of Oryx on the moon

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah that stuff isn't willful taking, it's the same thing oryx did by subjugating wills

The only way they "gave in" was literally because there wasn't another option

Their will was not strong enough, they will become taken

The only exception is xir-kuur, who wasn't even taken by TLOEN

[lofty badge]

got cha

[ember storm]

Aw I didn’t get to ping a mod

[jagged badge]

You can still ping me if you want

[ember storm]

@jagged badge boo

👻

[sick yew]

Unwarranted mod ping, banned

[trim grotto]

imagine stooping so low as to ping a mod 😔

[slim girder]

Mods are very busy. Very rude to distract them with a ping

[sick yew]

[lofty badge]

did the other Nine even Mourn Three's death or did they just go "oh he dead"

[slim girder]

The nine don't get sad. They don't process emotions the same we do due to them being 4th dimensional beings.

Only thing they seem afraid of is never breaking free of their attachment to life in Sol in order to exist

VI for example after studying the hive, oryx and dreadnaught for so long believes that shouting, violence and anger will get it what it wants.

But it doesn't even understand things like death as a concept. The nine are very impressionable beings with how alien they are.

[lofty badge]

ah i see

[lofty badge]

Can weapons of Sorrow keep Scorn perma dead and from being brought back?

[slim girder]

No. Even the original thorn probably couldn't keep scorn dead.
Scorn come from the use of dark ether.
The only reason the original thorn could kill guardians was because it devoured their light

[lofty badge]

makes sense

[slow berry]

The Nine do get sad fwiw

They mourned Theia and IV in particular is very peeved about what happened to III

[slim girder]

Ngl I completely forgot about Theia. My mistake.
As for IV i always thought it wasn't sadness and saw it more as them saying "They killed my neighbour so now I have to do whatever it takes to stop the outer orbits from winning"

[lofty badge]

ah

[slow berry]

III also was sad over us as it died iirc

From Submersion's lore tab

[lofty badge]

is the Pikers gang currently one of the most powerful Eliksni factions in the system, given they have both Imperium tech and paracausal strand and Stasis weaponry?

[slim girder]

They're strong but definitely not to the extent of say house light or salvation which iirc are the 2 biggest eliksni houses rn.

The house of exiles also had strand and stasis weapons

[lofty badge]

even tho House Salvation atm are just shattered bands of cultists and outlaws?

[dim minnow]

plus, the Pikers are kinda being held back by the fact they're contending with the other two syndicates and whatever remains of the Imperium

Salvation is pretty much done with

[lofty badge]

true and seem to be focused on just certain parts of two planets and one moon

[dim minnow]

since Eramis left the system with the Echo

[lofty badge]

and yeah

we still have Fallen criminals wearing house of dusk colors, but that house is also defunct

[dim minnow]

it would be funny if the Pikers were secretly controlled by Levazsk

[lofty badge]

lol

[slim girder]

Salvation isn't any kind of shattered outlaws or anything like that. They're just with Eramis now. Most likely out of Sol by now

[lofty badge]

true, but i was thinking about those who might still linger on Europa

around Riis Reborn

[slim girder]

Nah they all left with her

In the current lore

[lofty badge]

damn Bungie for letting world not evolve 😔

[slim girder]

As cool as it would be if bungie updated the world to match the lore then Europa would just be empty

[lofty badge]

unless they just gave all the House Salvation fallen dusk's colors

but yeah in that case atm the major fallen players are, House of light, Exiles, Pikers and House of Dusk pirates and the remnants of other houses

like it is easy to assume fallen in Old russia are devils and King survivors in EDZ

[slim girder]

Those houses are completely dead now iirc

[lofty badge]

yeah but former members still lingering as just house of dusk outlaws or what ever u want to call em

but then yeah Dusk outlaws, house of light, pikers and Exiles, unless i missed something

[slim girder]

House of kings got turned into scorn and they are who we fight in warlords ruin

[lofty badge]

high chance we will see Revenant Scorn again with a now undead Skolas?

unless we perma killed him again in Prison of elders?

but i read he just fled via revenant totem

[dim minnow]

yeah, if you stay in the room after killing him for a while, he revives

[lofty badge]

ah okay so yah high chance we gonna see him again

[slim girder]

Yeah. Rn though he's just kinda this "boogeyman" in the old prison. And from what we can tell he has no memory of who he actually was before.

He can't die conventionally and the only thing he responds to is the challenge of the elders.

[lofty badge]

ah okay

[dim minnow]

there might be a semblance of his old self, but if it truly was him, he'd want us to put him out of his misery once again

since back in D1, when he got access to the Vex gates in Venus, he discovered his role as a mere pawn for the Nine and wanted nothing more than for it to end

[lofty badge]

Think Shadow and order will be more of a season type with a new Activity?

[slim girder]

Supposed to be like ash and iron. But the big thing is them bringing tiered loot into all RAD content along with the next pantheon event.
We also have this blurb from a while ago that was on the timeline

Presumably an exotic mission on Luna based on lore from the dungeon

[slow berry]

<@&1019968308973416448>

[rigid fiber]

thanks

[lofty badge]

true

[frigid sparrow]

We already know that there's likely to be a new activity regardless of the delay

Just like ash and iron with reclaim, and we'll also be likely to get an exotic mission pertaining to the hive weapons foundry

And while it may be possible they'll try and expand on the storytelling format, it might still be too close to release for any active changes considering voice talent and whatnot

[dim minnow]

<@&1019968308973416448>

this is a new one

[slim girder]

Guess the crypto scam wasn't fooling enough people

[trim grotto]

They should probably update this one if it's still using the Twitter name and symbol

[queen swallow]

That would require them actually being smart though

[dense pike]

mirak2177 has been banned!

[crimson sand]

This is a Subclass/Update that i made
Non cannon

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13o-WYqmSfupweYlLG5yE2Z7CSldJeIL0hqoTZRHQxKM/edit?usp=sharing

[crimson sand]

Feel free to give feedback and suggestions

[trim grotto]

well the first thing i've got to say is that "soiled" is a term that will absolutely be abused by the community haha

Embedded is literally Stasis's Slow. Slow disrupts accuracy too.

That's pretty much word for word the same effect

Crushed is... Void Suppression plus Void Weaken

[crimson sand]

All fair

Not noticed by me but still fair

[trim grotto]

Stagnant will get you kicked from teams if it slows ability regen; it's core to a lot of builds. What do you define as "more reliably"?

[crimson sand]

I have no clue, honestly I wrote this like a year or 2 ago

[trim grotto]

I assume Fragment of Lodebearing is for an Orb of Power? This is nitpicky, I'll admit, but it hasn't been Orbs of Light since Beyond Light six years ago.
it also hasn't been Light Level since D1 but that isn't listed here it's just my pet peeve

[crimson sand]

That is what I meant, good catch

[trim grotto]

Fragment of Rupture's downside... doesn't affect Hunters.

So that's pretty free for them

Actually it wouldn't affect that one movement effect for Titans either; but nobody uses that

Anyway this has been blabbing about the balance and terms
If we're looking at the actual lore foundation I'm inclined to point out that Light and Dark, the foundations of our subclasses, tend to manipulate energies. This does actually include Stasis, as it's essentially forming Perfect Crystals by removing the energy from the area.

Earthquake Catalyst: I would be remiss not to mention that Overshield was repurposed into a Void term. It does exist outside of Void, but typically as an exception or a holdover from ye olden times.

I like the Cleansed effect

Hunter's Grasp is... yeah, that's the Void melee again but actually melee instead of a Smoke Bomb. Except like a Smoke Bomb it'll slow enemies, so... close range Smoke Bomb. It's Void again.

Earthen Ambush is nearly entirely Stasis's Slow dodge but with added DoT

Predator's Mark makes Divinity redundant; albeit requires a weakspot hit in the first place, so there's that

Increased Mobility whilst airborn is... well, Mobility doesn't exist anymore, but that would be literally functionless. Mobility buffed walk and strafe speed but not sprint, and base jump height, not double jumps, so... you'd get a second or two of the dodge cooldown and nothing else whatsoever. It also just applies Void Weaken again via Grenades.

PvP Scout, ad clear/support Rocket, auto rifle applying Stasis/Void/Strand debuffs all at once

step aside Prismatic

Effect: After crouching for a short period, gain a significant increase to handling speed and critical hit chance. Crit hits don't exist

ahh here we go, lore
sooo... funnily enough the Lumethines could work. Toland suggests the Hive made the Moon their home before Humans ever made it there, so in the funny alt-history Earth we've got, it wouldn't be totally awry to suggest something else also dug into Earth

That said, the Hive are... well, they're xenocidal. They wouldn't terribly much care for secret keepers that weren't Hive if they could not defend themselves. And the Hive have been "corrupted" ever since they left Fundament, their origin.

The thing about the Staggered Roots could work if redefined. It's sort of conflicting with the Nine, specifically III, but a bit of twisting could combine the two together.

In fact, given the upheaval produced by III's death and the natural disasters wracking the land, I'd say it's the ideal crossover.

As funny as a talking Screeb is, they're the least sapient of any of the Scorn. They're already zombies, but exploding bomb zombies resurrected one too many times wouldn't make for a very good conversationalist.

oh shit i made a cup of tea like an hour ago where did i leave it
it'll be cold now
heck

[jagged badge]

You silly sausage

[trim grotto]

😔

[trim grotto]

get 'em ewis

got 'em ewis

[jagged badge]

Fuck I got the wrong person

I was aiming for you

[trim grotto]

[jagged badge]

I’m actually so paranoid of doing a Dkay when I’m doing a banscam thing and accidentally doing someone else’s user ID somehow lmao

[ember storm]

hurh

[jagged badge]

Dkay accidentally banned the wrong person this one time

[ember storm]

can you demonstrate

[queen swallow]

Oh to be finally free of this prison

[dim minnow]

what if you banned someone who wasn't actually scamming but they were instead just doing a bit?

[jagged badge]

They can appeal the same way as someone who was genuinely banned but recovered their account at a guess

[velvet hawk]

Ive been out of the loop for a bit as in I haven't played consistently for a few weeks

Could someone like give me an update or like a list of the current nine members

???

Which one was the one that helped the kylo ren dude ?

[blazing wasp]

how long ago is "a few weeks", and what do you wanna know, like updates on the plot in regards to the nine?

[blazing wasp]

Six, or VI

[queen swallow]

Sun (IX), Mercury (I), Venus (II), Earth (III), and Mars (IV) comprise the Inner Orbits and generally like us.
Jupiter (V), Saturn (VI), Uranus (VII), and Neptune (VIII) comprise the Outer Orbits and generally dislike us.

[velvet hawk]

Mhmmmm kay

Earth or 3 is dead tho right ?

[queen swallow]

Yes

[velvet hawk]

Killed by miya cause it woulnt submit to her, so she ripped it from the 4th dimensional mind plane area thing and killed 3s consciousness

Yea ?

[blazing wasp]

well, technically yes

[velvet hawk]

Okie and 6 did what exactly ?

[blazing wasp]

it didnt "submit" the way you wont "submit" to someone demanding you perform magic

you cant do magic

Maya killed III in a hissy fit because III couldnt do what she asked

[blazing wasp]

we're not 100% sure but it involves killing the traveler and/or humanity, and the taken.

Its fucking around with sword logic

[velvet hawk]

Ans that's when 3 set in motion passed events to give us fbe best chance

Killing ikora

Pulling lodi forward

3 did all that to put us in the best position

[blazing wasp]

well, no and yes

[velvet hawk]

Yea see this is why the renegades story and or ending makes no sense to me

[blazing wasp]

it dramatically oversimplifies how nine's time travel works because you're seeing it through the lens of someone who thinks in the third dimension

and the nine dont do that

[velvet hawk]

The nine see all events at once

[blazing wasp]

If time is like a book, we're reading one word at a time, one page at a time, and the nine have access to the entire book at once, every page and every word, and they're not even opening the book.

[blazing wasp]

made perfect sense to me

[velvet hawk]

Explain

Bael was a dredgen who was contacted by 6 like lodi and 3

Yea ?

[blazing wasp]

yes to the first half

3rd half no, your source of confusion stems from not understanding the edge of fate campaign, rather than renegades.

[velvet hawk]

Ehhh

[blazing wasp]

anyhow

Cabal empire rose quickly because of time manipulation and assistance from VI allowing the empire to form quickly

[velvet hawk]

Yea

[blazing wasp]

bael became a "dredgen" though its not quite like the other dredgens we've known

[velvet hawk]

I understand that, explanation of how there js a new faction

Like the cloning of the shadow legion

[velvet hawk]

Huh?

Dredgen is just a faction no ?

[blazing wasp]

no

its more like a religion.

an ideology

[velvet hawk]

Fair

[blazing wasp]

and up until recently its only been guardians

Bael isnt really a "proper" dredgen so to speak, he's a different kinda dredgen

Its like a clone trooper becoming a sith without having any ability to use the force.

[velvet hawk]

Because he aint a guardian?

[blazing wasp]

he doesnt have a ghost, no

never had the light

[velvet hawk]

Ohhhhh yea you dont need guardian status to use Darkness

I forgot