📚lore-discussion

[slow berry]

I think the Winnower has a link to Darkness in the same way the Traveler is implied to have had at some point

they were at some point the two things that existed

[slim elk]

What is clear is the Darkness is much more freely used then the Light

Hence how Stasis-Strand use is possible

[slow berry]

kinda sorta?

[slim elk]

Meanwhile the Traveler will as far as self destructing its own Ghosts to stop the Light being used

[slow berry]

as it stands only humans have ever been able to use both light and darkness

[slow berry]

fwiw the light from ghosts does appear to come from the traveler

[slim elk]

As a result of a conscious act by the Traveler to restrict it.

[slow berry]

while the darkness simply exists as a physical element of the world we have come to discover and understand (though in both cases incited by external forces)

[slim elk]

It's not some biological thing.. we see that with the Lucent Hive

[slow berry]

wellllllll

the reason the lucent hive don't use darkness is biological

[slim elk]

End of it all
The Traveler does tightly control who can use the Light

Darkness has lot more artifacts people can find and utilize

[slow berry]

wellllllll

It does depend on what do you mean "use the light"

It tightly controls who it gives the light to in the sense of like what we call "Lightbearers" but then like, all the civilizations she enlightened she did through the Light

[slim elk]

Simple
You need a Ghost to start throwing around paracausal powers

Darkness you just need exposure apparently

[slow berry]

i.e. Arc, Solar and Void energy

[slow berry]

the reason for that seems to boil down to the fact that darkness is everywhere as it comes from how consciousness interacts with eachother vs the big capital L Light only coming from the Traveler, at least in the paracausal sense

even then both times we had very specific circumstances that lead us to interacting with Darkness that we had to then dilute and spread to others

[slim elk]

So as said.
Makes Darkness use actually far more "common" compared to the Light where you need direction interaction with the Traveler to use Light

Which tracks with the species the Hive annihilated that used darkness

[slow berry]

you can learn stasis without communing with a pyramid, but before we ever got to that point we needed people to get the ability from the pyramid

same with strand and the veil

hell, may be very well have been the case with stasis, given that we get it from a pyramid, and the witness had the veil

[slow berry]

its more "common" in the sense that like

it came free with your fuckinnn' consciousness

even to the precursors who have the oldest consciousness knownn to mann

[slim elk]

Heck
Both the Ecumene and Qugu were heavily implied to use it

[slow berry]

yeah bc like

it's just part of the universe

just like how anything else is

i don't think we actually know if any one person using darkness is even paracausal?

in the same way the traveler's light is

hive magic is paracausal but not all forms of light is

[slim elk]

It's just part of my annoyance with Heresy.

There's clearly a lot of places in the destiny verse beyond Sol and that was looking to be our best ticket out

Now we are back to "humanity is doomed"

[slow berry]

the problem is that this was never going to be the future

throughout all almost twelve? at this point years of destiny the idea has never been to leave earth

the recurrent narrative has been that of a gentle city, ringed in spears

and that's what the story is building up to

the last city of humanity standing as a triumphant rebuke to the sword logic and the idea that one single thing will stand at the end

bomb logic vs sword logic

collaboration and aid instead of conquest

[slim elk]

Again
I would at least be satisfied with the idea that with the Witness dead we could really begin to reclaim the world.

We don't need to hide behind walls anymore. We could look up at the stars and wonder what awaits us. Find others we could talk and collaborate We destroyed the Witness. "Won the argument"

[slow berry]

that's why we've held alliances with our former enemies or members of our former enemies throughout the years

[slim elk]

Now it's earth self destructing

[slow berry]

there's infinitely more to recover on earth alone (even before the death of III) than anything beyond the solar system

[slim elk]

Bingo. Yet we are still stuck in one Last City

[slow berry]

like a huge reason why we never got around to recovering all the golden age technology is that we just did not have the manpower and it was too dangerous

[slow berry]

yes, that's like

that's not gonna change

not for a long time

[slim elk]

And that's the issue

[slow berry]

it's not an issue that's just the setting

there have been smaller outposts throughout the world but the last city has been a massive collaborative effort throughout hundreds of years

we can't just go "hey lets build another one" for no reason when the last city itself still has myriad issues

destiny has never been a story of expansion and victory

[slim elk]

Less that. It's more how any progress gets "reset"

Now we got the Earth itself becoming hostile to human life

[slow berry]

what progress lmao

we had never made any progress thats kinda a noted point throughout the game's lifespan

[slim elk]

I point to the trail of dead gods threatening us and making allies with former enemies as progress

[haughty stump]

Maybe it’s hive nature to be complex. If the founding gods can’t stick to it, why should anyone else? Obv it’s a philosophy to accompany the worm feeding, but honestly the hive being light bearers makes more sense for them anyway, oryx was just desperate as fuck to save his civilization.

[slow berry]

even this doesn't change a lot because it has always been hostile to human life simply because its a dangerous place full of dangerous shit in it, hence why humans don't generally live outside of the last city

[haughty stump]

Oryx then disowns his son 😭

[slow berry]

all that's changed is that we have a new threat facing on the last city which like

yeah buddy that's

that's every day bro

it's every day

[slim elk]

If you can't say us making friends with Caital and Mithrax is significant progress.. don't know what to say

[haughty stump]

Stop I’m tearing up again 😭

[slow berry]

we're still allied with caiatl's forces and the house of light though?

we even have a tacit alliance with eramis whenever she reaches a planet to found riis-II

[slim elk]

Remember
How long did we not have that?

[slow berry]

what's your point here

where is this progress being reset

[slim elk]

I'm pointing out that's progress right there beyond hiding behind a city wall

[slow berry]

we have had several years of storylines talking about why we can't just go to torobatl again, and why the house of light resides in the last city rather than beyond it

[haughty stump]

Bro needed therapy not death. I wonder why savathan doesn’t use a ghost on oryx’s body on Saturn

[slow berry]

they are setting plotlines to go off-system at some point with both riis 2 and torobatl but they're clearly well in the future

[trim grotto]

Go do Ghosts of the Deep

[slim elk]

They tried.. literally exactly that lol

Oryx doesn't want to get back up

[slow berry]

maybe they shouldn't, so oryx actually returns

[slow berry]

even if III hadn't died we are simply in no place to go walking up to xivu arath and going "yo 1v1 me"

[haughty stump]

Everybody wants a final pattern 😭 witness, vex, hive.

[slow berry]

there's issues in the last city that we can't just solve by shooting someone in the face as well

[slim elk]

That's more from Xivu hiding in a corner all the time

[haughty stump]

I haven’t bought it20$ for a dungeon is a scam

[slim elk]

She likes to make noise. She's too much of a coward to even show her face in Hersey

[haughty stump]

Damn😭 do hive have a heaven of sorts?

[slow berry]

xivu is being a bitch about it but we like

we have absolutely zero recourse against her

which is ultimately why her being a bitch about it is going to be her eventual downfall

[ember storm]

basically the body isn't technically dead so a ghost wouldn't do anything

[slim elk]

You see. I rather doubt that logic with her slowly starving and having gotten kicked out of her throne world

[ember storm]

his soul essence was slurped up so it's just a big flesh paperweight

[slow berry]

but like, guardians operate exclusively through direct violence even on a ludonarrative level where guardians approaching every issue with a gun in their hand is genuinely how it works in the game

[ember storm]

they have a "next realm" that's mentioned in funeral practices

[slow berry]

you do know how xivu arath works right

[slim elk]

Worm

[slow berry]

her tithe is combat

if you fight her she feeds on you

[slim elk]

They always want more

[slow berry]

if you fight her

at all

she feeds on you

while she's fighting you she's also using her battle song to take over you

[ember storm]

do you think Mario & Luigi could beat the witness

[ember storm]

invest in good earplugs

[slim elk]

It works both ways though Lith.
She needs to fight us eventually. Otherwise her worm will devour her alive

[slow berry]

no but kirby could, genuinely

[slim elk]

So she needs to make a move

[haughty stump]

Still kinda shocked that we’ve never even seen her yet 😭 like bro give me a cutscene

[slow berry]

1.- theres a million other places to go kill people on instead
2.- she wins that fight

[slow berry]

you're gonna flip out when you find out about the cutscene that has xivu arath in it

[haughty stump]

Isn’t that all hive?

[slow berry]

no

for all hive it is killing

[haughty stump]

Im not talking about that black and white drawing, I want like the real Xivu Arath

[haughty stump]

Ohhh

So her sword logic is fundamentally different in a sense

[slow berry]

for oryx and his sisters they all picked a job basically

[haughty stump]

Or it can be

[ember storm]

so

[haughty stump]

Take, deception, and war?

[slow berry]

savathun feeds off of deception and lies and tricking her opponents

[slow berry]

navigation

for oryx

[slim elk]

And anyway
We also have the "jump the shark" moment with eclipse energy perfectly countering both dark and light
Perfect anti xivu weapon

[haughty stump]

Navigation?!

[ember storm]

in terms of class analog, Oryx was hunter, savathun was warlock, and xivu was titan

[slow berry]

they do call him the navigator!

[slim elk]

Exploration indeed

[ember storm]

oryx charted the course and explored

their hive god status has nothing to do with oryx becoming taken king

he just did that later

[haughty stump]

astral projection is nice. But idk I wanna see her full body like in taken king I straight up see Oryx look at the stars.

[slow berry]

it counters paracausality*

actually yeah this is like

a good point here about our discussion on the paracausality of darkness

because surely it would've killed bael if he had paracausality simply as a result of channeling the darkness

[haughty stump]

Really? The most genocidal maniac, is a simple astronomy lover?!

[slow berry]

yup

[slim elk]

Bit different with Xivu since worm

Plus the embodiment of war and all

[ember storm]

you gotta know where to look for planets to conquer

[haughty stump]

Bro communed with the darkness, knew his whole logic was a lie, and believed it anyway?! And it’s not even to feed his worm cause he FEEDS OFF EXPLORATION?! Ight nvm fuck oryx bro did this for the love of the game 😭😭

[slow berry]

oh ofc

i'm just talking on the whole thing about it being freely available

anyhow like

eclipse aside

how exactly do you expect us to like

use that

i don't know if you remember but that's us

also preparing weapons of war empowers xivu arath

lol lmao

[slim elk]

It's also as if we have a bunch of non paracausal allies that can safely use it

And Xivu can still lose wars. After all she's been stalemated

Even a clear loss with getting her ass kicked out of her own throne

[slow berry]

xivu will die at some point

it's not about that

its the fact we don't have a narrative reason to go there at the moment

even caiatl knows this

which is why ash and iron has mentions of them still gearing up and preparing to go back, but not being ready yet

[slow berry]

achieved not through war, but through surpassing her in sword logic

which is not something that's achievable to us at the moment

these things need and will get setu9p

but its gonna be a while until then

[slim elk]

I just get annoyed at Xivu being treated as an invincible villain that has everyone fall before her might

When she's clearly cowardly and won't show up in a fight unless she's sure she can win in

[slow berry]

i wouldn't expect it until a potential destiny 3 realistically

[slow berry]

well yeah

she has no reason to

we walk in and she fucking kills us for free

we wait and she recoups strength and walks in and kills us for free

[slim elk]

She's so cowardly she won't even show up for family reunions

[slow berry]

she did send an envoy but lowkey that was kinda hella far for her to come and join ngl

[ember storm]

she's waiting for her main man kelgorath to be available

[slow berry]

like savathun is chilling in the system already

[ember storm]

cant do it wihtout him

[slim elk]

Even Savathun showed her face.
She's the one who doesn't like to be seen lol

[slow berry]

savathun loves being seen

being seen means she's drawing attention

[haughty stump]

Envoy ?

[slow berry]

theres a knight called voice of xivu arath that shows up during heresy

xivu arath talks through it

[ember storm]

do you think that knight has any idea whats happening when it shows up

does it pretend not to hear to avoid the family drama

[haughty stump]

I see it now

[slim elk]

I think what sums up Xivu best
We had the "ultimate battle for the fate of the universe"
She's hiding in a corner and not helping

[slow berry]

the facetime of hive

[slow berry]

she would not be on our side lil brother

[slim elk]

Yep

[slow berry]

also like

[ember storm]

half the guys in Excision were really just there for no reason

wtf were the sol divisive doing there

[slim elk]

Just pointing she missed the ultimate fight

[slow berry]

what is she supposed to do, the witness didn't invite her

you can't just walk in

[ember storm]

i mean

[haughty stump]

“First navigator who is a deity of exploration,inquiry, and understanding” I don’t get it bro, he didn’t even need to be who he was, if he wanted to be strong😭 why is bro’s biggest trait understanding but he can’t understand why he would love A SON?!

[slow berry]

worm

thats the tragedy with the hive, again

they have the worms

they took the contract

they need to kill and cull

[ember storm]

skill issue tbh

be loud n proud about it

[haughty stump]

But I thought his worm can be fed through exploration? Via tithes

[ember storm]

the sentient parasite demanding blood in my chest is chill

[ember storm]

theyre seperate things

[haughty stump]

Ohhh

[ember storm]

he still just got regular kill tributes from his underlings

but adhering to his own nature as the navigator also helped

[slow berry]

honestly oryx was kinda chill with it

[ember storm]

my goat

we reached an understanding

let the family dog try and kill us for the fun of it

[haughty stump]

So he was greedy? He did the killing and the navigating?

[slow berry]

iirc the killing tithes were significantly less strong, and more or less just served as sustenance whereas practicing their actual chosen role empowered them much more

[ember storm]

no he needed both

it's a pyramid scheme basically

those higher up have more power but need more and more tribute

Oryx would not physically be able to keep up with his worm's demand on his own

[slim elk]

Yeah
So Sword Logic is not just straight murder
It's pretty much anything that can be conceived as "competition"

So you know.. even racing

[ember storm]

Savathun got greedy with the dreaming city curse

[slim elk]

Climbing up a mountain. Etc

[ember storm]

so her worm became a real fat bastard

[slow berry]

savathûn's dreaming city curse was an attempt to circunvent the worm tithes by doing a time loop so the worm could just feed off of what was an infinite cycle of murdering

but uhhh

it caught on

didn't want no stale souls

[ember storm]

i like the idea that it was just so much food 24/7 that it literally just got so fat it was even more hungry

[slow berry]

i mean thats the thing with the worms right

the implication is they just keep asking for more and more

[ember storm]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-worm-dance-gif-23697519

what you dont think this guy is good at self control?

[slow berry]

savathun just took it to the extreme wagering that her infinity murder was larger than whatever appetite the worm could have

but as that one guy says

some infinities are larger than others

[haughty stump]

If he communed with the dark, wonder why stay loyal to the sword logic, I mean hating it doesn’t hurt you anyway? You just do it, and if Savathun showed him a chance. Well idk ig he doesn’t like being loyal to anyone.

Well hold up

[slow berry]

he communed with the winnower

[haughty stump]

His dreadnaught is his throne world

[slow berry]

who like

is the actual source of the actual belief that there's a final shape

[haughty stump]

And we kill him in the ascendant realm

[slow berry]

a real final shape

he genuinely believed in it

[haughty stump]

So we never killed him outside of a throne world,

[slow berry]

the dreadnaught is his throne world

[haughty stump]

The end pattern

[slim elk]

Honestly just say he became suicidal after realizing that he got lied to by the worms
Oryx is the one who pushed the deal with them

[slow berry]

he turned it inside out and carved it out of a worm god's corpse

[slim elk]

Savathun got thrown off guard by it she exposed herself

[slow berry]

the dreadnaught is his throne world in the physical realm

[haughty stump]

I thought the throne world was like the place your soul teleports to after you die, and then you can come back

[slow berry]

throne worlds are traditionally in the ascendant realm, but oryx inverted his and grafted it over the dreadnaught into physical space

[haughty stump]

What did he gain from doing that? Made him mortal straight up.

[slim elk]

Vex invaded his previously

[slow berry]

he did it after crota left the front door open and a fuck ton of vex invaded his throne world

so he was like

[dim minnow]

it made it more difficult to attack as it was made mobile

[slow berry]

fuck iti

i'm living in my minivan

[slim elk]

He figured it be more secure

[haughty stump]

I thought throne world and ascendant planes were two separate things?
Ascendant plane is oryx’s special place because of his ability to Take
Hmm interesting, idk I would have kept the realm back there

That way you have to kill me regulary, my throne world, and me after I take myself.

[slow berry]

anyone can access the ascendant plane

[dim minnow]

plus he had the superweapon on the Dreadnaught which could wipe out entire fleets

[slow berry]

it's just a plane alongside the physical world

[slim elk]

Throne worlds are "places" in the ascendant plane

To oversimplifiy it

[slow berry]

oryx wasn't suicidal (the echo of navigation maybe), he was fully at peace with what he had done

[dim minnow]

accessing the Ascendant Plane isn't that easy

[haughty stump]

Then, if we kill him in the throne world the first time, why do we kill him again? What happens when he takes himself?

[slow berry]

also i'm p sure it was savathun that lead them to the worms

[ember storm]

i could do it right now

[slow berry]

well its the whole ratatouille thing

[slim elk]

Yes.
Lead them. Oryx took the deal

[ember storm]

end of the campaign is him not dying

[haughty stump]

Def not at peace at seeing the other blade of his logic, bro loved crota way too much.

[ember storm]

he physically TAKES himself away to run and recuperate

Kings Fall the raid is the only time we actually kill him

[haughty stump]

So he just teleports?

[ember storm]

yeah that's basically what Taking is

[slow berry]

it wasn't out of love, crota was like half of his tithes and he needed to recover them

[ember storm]

you just take things somewhere else

turning things into Taken is a seperate process after

so like he just didn't do that part to himself

[slow berry]

we have a good number of reasons to believe he wasn't super fucking with crota

oryx constantly shat on him ngl

[ember storm]

https://tenor.com/view/oryx-taking-himself-destiny-oryx-taken-king-gif-17498021

look at his smile

he so handsome

[haughty stump]

Ok the tithes was a cope imo, he was sooo fucking pissed about his son, and te echo acknowledges it was sentimental revenge or sttachement I forget the speech

[slow berry]

including but not limited to crota asking for one of the tablets of ruin and oryx going "lol lmao i'm gonna give it to the dog instead and if i catch your ass stealing it you better start swingin"

[ember storm]

it's worth noting

the point at which oryx kicks crota out of the house for being a nepo baby

and the point at which we first encounter Crota in D1

is VERY much different points in time

[slow berry]

i dont think they ever spoke again though

[ember storm]

we're never shown Crota being angry at Oryx for this decision, in fact the tough love was exactly what he needed

he still dedicated an entire shrine to his father

[haughty stump]

I mean, crappy father for sure, but like…. He still loved him I’d say. I wonder why he couldn’t with the other son, necromancy isn’t that diffeeent from what oryx does.

[ember storm]

and also emulated his parenting techniques with his own daughters

so alls well that ends well

[ember storm]

i mean Oryx definitely just didnt fw Nokris

[haughty stump]

Wasn’t just tough love, bro had a blast massacaring guardians😭😭

[slow berry]

Crota's title being "Son of Oryx" is such great characterization and also excellent at hyping up oryx

[ember storm]

Nokris was a heretic through and through, no "well from a certain point of view" nonsense

[slow berry]

they don't do shit like that as much anymore

[ember storm]

he was really just a freak

[slim elk]

An infamous quote
"Father will tear out our souls"

[haughty stump]

Oh so maybe it wasn’t just necromancy, he also prob denied the logic overall

[ember storm]

unfortunately out of all his kids Nokris resembles dad the most

irony

[slow berry]

oryx doesnt really do necromancy? at all?

[ember storm]

hive aren't supposed to do necromancy

[slow berry]

the hive gaslit themselves into going "well if you have a throne world its because oyu're stronger than people that dont have a throne world"

[ember storm]

it's why the Echo lost its shit at Savathun being a lightbearer

[slow berry]

which is why dying just isn't that big of a deal

[slim elk]

He does
Hive love to be hypocritical. They just don't like being called on it

[slow berry]

you're not actually dead until you're full off of every realm in existence

[ember storm]

having a throne world is proof you're so epic you can will yourself to self rez

[slow berry]

sunsinger,,,,,

[ember storm]

necromancy is just some guy waving his hand and bringing back a bunch of dead slackers

very cringe

[haughty stump]

I heard he did

[slow berry]

he does not

[slim elk]

Yeah
It's an early encounter where he killed both Xivu and Savathun to power himself up

[slow berry]

the closest is doing an act of trickery and an act of warmongering to bring back savathun and xivu arath from their throne worlds, but as mentioned above, being in your throne world is not being dead

its simply being in the ascendant realm and weakened

[slim elk]

I believe it's how he managed to kill a worm God to learn how to take?

[slow berry]

and he didn't bring them back, they brought themselves back after having given said tithes

[haughty stump]

Thought communing is what taught him?

[slow berry]

entirely differetn thing

[slow berry]

he communed with the winnower using the worm god corpse

[ember storm]

Oryx actually discovered his throne world when Savathun and Xivu murdered him

like not hive duel stuff they just killed him

none of them expected him to come back

[haughty stump]

Interesting, ngl he would have done better under bomb logic. Exploration, “spaces between the stars” like bro THE TRAVELER IS RIGHT THERE! It is a damn tragedy.cant wait for them to bring him back in D3

[slim elk]

A nice parallel with Eris

She expected it but wasn't sure

Cue massive evil grin when she finds out yes she's still immortal

[slow berry]

i dont think she expected it at all?

specially given she couldn't actually like, do anything in it

[slim elk]

She literally became a Hive God a year before that happened

[slow berry]

and then rejected the hive logic in an act of heresy to remove xivu arath's throne world and lose all of her godhood

[trim grotto]

Two dungeons.

[slow berry]

ghost of the deep is so long it's gonna feel like four

[slim elk]

Your still subject to Sword Logic even if you deny it
Hence how a certain Worm God binded itself to us as a gun

[trim grotto]

Bomb Logic isn't a source of power. Technically, neither is Sword Logic. They're belief systems, trains of thought.
The power source is parallel, the Worm hunger.

[slow berry]

well no

eris doesn't have a worm

she's just constructed through alternative means

[trim grotto]

Besides, Oryx and the Hive are stuck. Feed the Worm or be consumed by the Worm.

[ember storm]

how can i be subject to logic if i'm stupid

checkmate

[haughty stump]

Yea ik, like as a religion I mean.

[slim elk]

She did actually
The one on Titan

[slow berry]

this is what the dread are doing basically

[haughty stump]

Savathun could have fixed that

It’s oryx’s fault

[slow berry]

not eating her intestines, no

[trim grotto]

She didn't figure out how until the last few years, shortly after Forsaken.

[ember storm]

its canon

[slim elk]

And besides
We already seen you don't need a Worm to have a throne World

You may wish to see the Queen of the Awoken as an example

[ember storm]

it is worth noting Savathun didnt care about the killing billions of innocents to stay alive part

she just didnt like it being inefficient

[slim elk]

Mara Sov has her own throne world

[ember storm]

its more like a room

[trim grotto]

Wish Magic is a rather heavy exception.

[slow berry]

the anthem anathema is a whole other can of worms

[trim grotto]

All of Shattered Throne. The thing you're speaking of is just a regular place.

[slow berry]

bitch why is it all the fucking worms with great power in this universe

[slim elk]

Alright then
Hiraks the Mindbender

[trim grotto]

Who studies the Hive and the Worms

Presumably a Worm was involved

[slow berry]

question, great sage

if we shatter the time loop in the dreaming city can mara sov recover her throne world?

[trim grotto]

It's possible with time she'd be able to repair it, assuming that we shatter the loop and also win. The third week is very very heavy on the Taken infestation.

As it is, it still works for her

[ember storm]

legally speaking Dul has squatter rights now

[trim grotto]

She has died and returned via it since the loop

[slow berry]

i really want a scene where we break the loop and we just like

[ember storm]

and that one patrol corsair still dies

[slow berry]

use coming up on eight? years of the time loop to just no-sell dul incaru

like yeah move over again please

[slow berry]

yeah but like

you can tell she wanted it to be pretty

[slim elk]

There's an easy way to break the loop we won't ever do

[slow berry]

it'd give her a good project

[slim elk]

Let the Hive "win"

[slow berry]

bit of a fixer upper at this point

[slow berry]

wellllll

i'm p sure that'd just loop again

[ember storm]

i dont even know what that would do for her at this point

[slow berry]

its wish magic

[ember storm]

fuck is she gonna do with that

[slow berry]

home theater

[trim grotto]

The loop was the win anyway; it's how Sav got enough 'fuel' to change to Imbaru.

[slow berry]

yeah we lost the second we killed riven

[slim elk]

Maybe we should dump a bunch of eclipse energy and dump it in the Dreaming City

[trim grotto]

Nullify the paracausality of the half light half dark beings

[slim elk]

Honestly though I don't think Bungie really thought that one out.
Logically it would kill both Awoken and Exos from latent paracausal nonsense involved in their creation

[slow berry]

mael do we know what's going on with the ahamkara babies

or what we're expected to like

do about that

[slim elk]

Darkness infused vex milk for Exos and the Awoken whole nature

[slow berry]

they'd still be ahamkara babies and they'd still be trying to like exit the universe maybe?

would they be a clean slate since all of the other ones are dead

[slow berry]

as i mentioned above simply having darkness or light doesn't mean you're paracausal

[trim grotto]

I doubt it'd kill Exo. Clarity already transformed the material, removing Darkness doesn't make it not Alkahest.

[slow berry]

bael uses stasis and facetanks a blast

[trim grotto]

We're not expected to do anything. Mara's taking care of them.

[slow berry]

okay not us but like

has anything come up with that since then

[ember storm]

i could tank it

[slow berry]

also mara with a bunch of wish granting babies sounds like the world's most volatile situation

[trim grotto]

Not that I'm aware of, though I've been out of the loop.
I expect she'll try to raise them to be like Taranis.

[slim elk]

Remember
The Great Hunt was us killing them all over the possibility of what the Wish dragons can do
(And Mara wanting sole access to them)

[trim grotto]

She did it once with Riven. Truth be told, it was very successful until Oryx arrived.

And she's planning to do it differently this time

[ember storm]

when will she let me omelette that one egg she kept hidden

[slow berry]

i had an idea at some point of giving the guardian one of the ahamkara babies and then it can be like an in-universe explanation for giving the player access to older gear thats gone

[slim elk]

Maras a lot better then her "Queen Bitch of the Universe" days at least

[slow berry]

you tell your baby ahamkara what you want and once you desire it enough (by clearing activities) you get a drop

this trains the ahamkara

[slim elk]

Seeing the Witness really shattered her ego

[slow berry]

also let me name my baby ahamkara noodle

[trim grotto]

Shaw Han's accidental Wish to some bones is what gave him his fire team.

And we all know what happened to them

For all Mara is, she is the ideal candidate to safely take care of Ahamkara

[slow berry]

yeah but i'll be feeding the baby ahamkara some banger cryogenically frozen cow meat so it'd love me

[trim grotto]

Perhaps
But Mara knows the secrets of the Cow Thing

[slow berry]

and totally not take advantage of when i go "i wish this fight was over already" to kill me

[trim grotto]

Anyway I'd best get back to work

Ciao

[ember storm]

play balatro on company time

[haughty stump]

Didn’t he crack a hive?

I lowk don’t fw the racism Spider was having about the brood

Bro called them all sorts of fucked up shit 😭

[ember storm]

they do canonically smell like dirt

[slow berry]

the hive did like

you know

eat their entire fucking planet

so

[haughty stump]

It’s the reef. I mean everything is shit

[ember storm]

nah i love my morally grey king

[haughty stump]

Who?

[ember storm]

the fat one

[haughty stump]

Spider?

[ember storm]

hes my fat fuck king

a few people theorizied it was some kind of ether gorging but no

[trim grotto]

Truly shameful that he hates the beings that exist to slaughter all life they encounter.

[haughty stump]

A big bodied person reading this: 👁️👄👁️

[ember storm]

he's probably just jealous

Hiraks found someone who loved and appreciated him

[haughty stump]

I mean the fact that the hive wizard chose to create life instead of killing him says something

So it can’t all be true

[ember storm]

i mean

they also used their children as bombs

[haughty stump]

Compromises

[haughty stump]

So what I get hungry too

[ember storm]

pack a snickers

[trim grotto]

He wasn't called the Mindbender for nothing

He literally mind controlled the brood

[haughty stump]

So the brood would have killed him if he didn’t control them?

Sad ig

[haughty stump]

I prefer Twix

[slim girder]

Yes. But he was also getting a lil freak deaky with the hive brood queen

[fringe sundial]

yeah hiraks lowk not morally good

[jagged badge]

Who could’ve known

[hidden pebble]

does shax have any family?

[dim minnow]

he has well over thousands of spouses

[trim grotto]

Not that I'm aware of, though Guardians typically do not. Zavala and Fenchurch and Ana are exceptions, for the most part.

but yes The Vow exists

[dim minnow]

if you own the Legendry bow, The Vow (from the Crimson Days event) then you are married to him

[slow berry]

im his third cousin

[trim grotto]

I suppose it's possible Eris Morn still has living family in the City too, actually.

She was City-born.

[slow berry]

She wouldn't know, right?

[hidden pebble]

i vaguely remember something saying “Warlord. Father. Crucible handler or something idk”

[dim minnow]

in terms of Shaxx having actual blood relatives though, no

[slow berry]

Since its vanguard policy not to look into previous lives

[dim minnow]

I think you're referring to Shaxx's Into the Light description

[trim grotto]

Well, sure, but that's a bit harder when you live in the same City. She even has an apartment down there.

[dim minnow]

Titan, Warlord, Husband. He has many titles, but you can call him Shaxx

[hidden pebble]

that just may be it

[queen swallow]

So then he has a wife?

[trim grotto]

He has thousands

The Vow!

[queen swallow]

Right

[hidden pebble]

reinstalling the game as of now

what’s his description in the tower?

[queen swallow]

I thought the apartment was because she'd been ostracized because of her appearance or something or rather didn't want to deal with the Tower

[slow berry]

thats

thats just where she lives, dude

[trim grotto]

She also has a grotty little place on the Moon, if I recall.

[slow berry]

she has a few camps here and there

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/iii-trust

[trim grotto]

For the record, it's pretty normal. Sloane had one too, and she was/is the Deputy Commander.

[wraith kernel]

Soooo what's up with the yellow Arc and that anomaly thing in Vesper? And what's that message all about?

[slow berry]

The message was foreshadowing for Edge of Fate, and I think its believed to have been the device the Nine used to contact Lodi

The other end of the phone Lodi picks up, if you will

[dim minnow]

the weird yellow arc was never really fully explained

however, the message we found was seemingly a distress call from Lodi

not really sure what the Corruption had to do with it though

[trim grotto]

"Overcharged" Arc.

Pretty sure they just thought it looked cool, honestly.

[wraith kernel]

hmmmmmmm

my mental ill head was hyping myself up thinking "OHHHH DARKNESS ARC" type shit

anyway, so what IS this corruption spider-web thing?

[slim girder]

The running theory is that it is something from the nine that corrupted a whole eliksni crew in order to make them buid the giant device we see in vespers host

A way to get us to hear Lodis distress call from kepler which is on the very outer edge of the solar system

Same kind of corruption that the house of exiles on kepler have been afflicted by where only the Kell or in vespers host case captain is the only one who still has their mind and uses all other eliksni as vessels for itself or "puppets"

[wraith kernel]

hmmmmm and all those wires are just that, wires?

[slim girder]

Yes. Eliksni machine crafting gone crazy due to them never stopping

[haughty stump]

Lowk the witness got some valid points

We are literally immortal

The fuck we gonna do for eternity?

[queen swallow]

Support those that are not

[slim girder]

"We die over and over so that others may live"

[haughty stump]

Ah yk that is fair

But in essence we only help when we need to kill something. At some point what would be the meaning of our existence past that?

[queen swallow]

[We] do that because that is how the game is made

[haughty stump]

This is lore discussion man I’m obv talking at a deeper level within it. Idk I don’t support the witness at the end, because to grow is to be human. But he got a certain view point I can see

[slim girder]

Everyone has their own interpretation of how the universe should operate. The witness isn't completely wrong in what it wants, it just fails to realise being calcified and everything in the universe being brought to a halt isn't something everyone wants.

[haughty stump]

Like religion!

Everybody has their own, and they aren’t wrong to seek a higher purpose, but not everyone wants it like they do or one at all

[slim girder]

But even we can have holes in our way of thinking.
Like we are immortal warriors with untold levels of power and we have seen many instances of that power being turned on innocents and other species who really didn't actually do anything wrong to us.
Saint went on a crusade and crushed fallen houses, this meant he even went so far as to exterminate innocent eliksni hatchlings and according to mithrax even go so far as to torture eliksni before killing them. Innocent or not an eliksni to saint back then was an enemy.

[trim grotto]

We might live forever so let's end the universe?

[haughty stump]

It’s not ended? We all get our perfect reality

[trim grotto]

Brother that's the biggest fall for propaganda I've heard thus far

[haughty stump]

No need to grow or live just a constant moment

[queen swallow]

idk being cubed is not my idea of a perfect reality

[slim girder]

Yeah I'd also prefer not to be melted by radiolaria either. Or butchered by a hive knight

[trim grotto]

Ace it's literally freezing the universe
An infinite standstill, a perpetual eternity of a frozen frame

The universe is functionally ended

[slim girder]

No life, no death. The universe becomes the equivalent of a snow globe

[trim grotto]

If you're that concerned about your own fate then put yourself in stasis or shoot your Ghost and then yourself but taking the entire universe down with you has some mild moral connotations

[haughty stump]

Well ofc I’m not supporting the witness. I just like complexity and I don’t like the whole good vs bad 100% of the time. You get what I mean?

[trim grotto]

We've had a variety of morally complex villains, but you'll have to be working pretty damn hard to find the good in the universe ender.

It was going to finalise all of existence because it couldn't control the Traveler's "chaos" and couldn't find it make its own meaning

[haughty stump]

Yea but it’s not like im just staring as a statue, his putting me in a constant feeling of idk euphoria?

[trim grotto]

Tell that to the Qugu, stuck in a psychic cry of eternal pain from the torture of the Witness.

You've fallen for the lies, friend.

Just like how it told Calus he'd be the last in existence

[haughty stump]

So the witness geninuely does not care about us?

Is it literary just for his benefits

[slim girder]

Just like the Grim. Who's memories are now permanently gone to the point we only know them by the winged dread we relentlessly kill.

[haughty stump]

Like he just felt the universe was too loud and alive and wanted it all to HUSH?!

[slim girder]

The witness felt the traveler placed unnecessary pain upon the universe. So they decided enough was enough. What they don't understand is pain in the universe is just another part of nature

We all feel it and that's what makes us alive

[queen swallow]

The Witness lied. Like, a lot. It even does it in the campaign, trying to convince Zavala, Crow, and eventually us, to "join" it.

[trim grotto]

Too chaotic. No meaning. Full of pain.
So it wanted to end it all. Finalise it.

[slim girder]

Manipulation is easier to it than fighting. One of the races it subjugated it didn't even cause any kind of violence. It just slowly took over them all and they folded.
As for any civilisation that was touched by the traveler however it would go all out and destroy everything in anger and hate.
Our collapse was a prime example of this hate and it's goal was to make it so that when we looked at the traveler and saw it do nothing we'd be easier to fold

[jagged badge]

The Witness watching the Traveler do something for the first time in eons in the Collapse

[slim girder]

Straight middle finger to the witness.

I like these new humans more

[ember storm]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-2-the-final-shape-the-witness-darkness-pale-heart-gif-5868788825429096951

[haughty stump]

I swear forsaken, Witch queen and lightfall don't point to me to doing the raid at all during the campaign

With the final shape I can easily understand

With beyond light I can somewhat understand

Lowk don't understand shadow keep either

But like bro how are these raids connected to the campaign?

What business did we have killing riven? We were there for cayde

What business did we have going back to the garden? We wanted to know what was the pyramid doing on the moon ( which btw if anything the root of nightmares raid should have happened during shadow keep)

Also
No one told us or the vanguard the nightmares were happening to Neonuoma people

[dim minnow]

There was some post-campaign story stuff mainly pertaining ot us accessing the Dreaming City where we would find out about Riven

there was, of course, the final boss of the Forsaken campaign who was the "Voice of Riven"

for Witch Queen, there was dialogue from the Wellspring activity that indicated the Scorn would get access to the Sunken Pyramid which we needed to deal with.

because Savathun died, the Wellspring was left weakened and its hold over Rhulk's pyramid was gone which allowed him to challenge us

as for Lightfall, during the campaign, we learn Nezarec has risen once again, and in the days leading up to the raid, we could hear dialogue from him during certain activities like Terminal Overload and the Thrilladrome lost sector

and the reason Nezarec was revived in the first place was because the Traveler shot a terraformation beam at the Witness' Pyramid at the very start of Lightfall.

now as for Shadowkeep, we go to the Black Garden because the mysterious orb we recieved from the Lunar Pyramid at the very end of the Shadowkeep campaign sent a signal that led there

so we followed that signal until we sent inside the giant stump where we found a veiled statue which would then kick off the events of Season of Undying

[dim minnow]

also, there was actual reports of these nightmares from the Neomuni so we did know something was up

the relevance the raids have to the campaigns are pretty clear

[slow berry]

The only one that isn't directly relevant is Vault of Glass, which is simply us being sent to check it out I think

A previous fireteam had gone in and only one of them survived (a common fan theory being that six people went in and we only know of the three that weren't erased by the Vault) but even that was years before we go in there

I will say besides obviously The Final Shape, Forsaken is the most tied to the story given that it was required to continue the post-campaign story with the curse on the Dreaming City

[trim grotto]

uhm akshually!!!!

"At last, the Heart of the Garden has been destroyed, its stranglehold on the Traveler released. Our Light brightens. But the power of the Vex is not broken. Look into the Vault, Guardian, for it is said to hold powers the Progeny were meant to bring forth." - The Speaker

[frigid sparrow]

Eater of Worlds and Spire of Stars also aren't related to the dlcs and are just calus calling on us for some mercenary work. Leviathan itself was Calus introducing himself to us due to our work in taking out Ghaul, his former exiler, and Crown of Sorrow was during the season of opulence, which... yeah lol

[slow berry]

yeah but the speaker was just saying shit fr

i interpreted this more in the sense of like "now that you're free can you go check this out"

[slow berry]

i deadass forgot leviathan existed i'm ngl

thats my bad

[frigid sparrow]

Riven was the one behind Uldren's corruption, and the use of wish magic that led to the creation of the scorn. Alongside the general post-campaign stuff in the dreaming city, her death is a necessity.

Root of Nightmares actually DID have some dialogue within the campaign, with the most overt being inside the part of the campaign where you do the strike, with Nezarec directly speaking to us and I think Nimbus going "welp that's a problem for later!" however, other dialogue did exist post-campaign with some rare occurrences during the terminal overrides and on the news from jisu calerondo, and some little secrets whenever you were holding nezarec's equipment in certain areas

[trim grotto]

The Sol Progeny, of the Sol Divisive, are tied to the Vault of Glass by this quote. I actually made a post/theory about this some time ago.

One of the few reddit posts I've bothered to write haha

It culminates in a reason as to why the Vault was never replicated, and how it even came to be

[slow berry]

oh, is there an actual reason as to why they didn't re-attempt the vault besides the vex not replicating experiments (and also people showing up to the vault twice a day to throw garbage at the templar)

i know from house of wolves that the oracle technology still exists and works within the vault, at least as of that one time

[trim grotto]

I'll preface this by emphasising it is a theory, but I'm quite confident in it given that I haven't really seen any rebuttles or alternative theories.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/uoz2ox/amorphous_blobs_and_ontological_robots_a_theory/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Don't worry, it's quite short.

[slow berry]

I see what you're getting at

[trim grotto]

I'd like for it to be a more fleshed-out theory, but there's honestly so little to work with in the first place.

[slow berry]

There was also that bit about the Vex baiting us back into the Vault so we could take care of their little Taken problem, right? which i think is the only time we get to walk past the atheon boss room and into the hallway

[trim grotto]

Yes, they did invade the Vault. Though I actually didn't consider those implications at the time of writing this.

[dim minnow]

one of the few times they weren't outright hostile towards us

[slow berry]

iirc the implication was that they needed something paracausal to deal with it

[trim grotto]

Makes sense. The Taken are paracausal by nature themselves, and we all know how the Vex handle paracausality.

[slow berry]

They seemingly didn't have this problem before we invade the vault and thus before we destroy the black heart, so it could possibly genuinely be that they did have some form of paracausal ability to deal with it at the time

[trim grotto]

Well... the Taken also weren't around at that time.

[slow berry]

Well, yeah, but its the vault and its the vex

Wibbly wobbly, timey wimey

My idea is that while the heart existed, assuming it did grant the vex some access to paracausal forces, they could deal with these issues in the vault even if they occured in the future, because they still had those abilities, but destroying the heart means they're back to being tied to reality of cause and effect

the doylist answer is that they just wanted to reuse the vault and the taken didn't exist at the time so obviously they couldn't have been there` but it would make sense

[trim grotto]

Mm. Either way, the loss of the Black Heart - acting as the source of the power of the Vault - explains and answers a lot of the questions we've experienced for years. Primarily, of course... why not just make another Vault? Why's it even in the Solar system in the first place?

The only pushback I got when I posted this theory - apart from it just not getting much traction - was folks saying the Sol Divisive are... well, divisive, and don't work with the Vex Collectives as a whole. Which... was only ever partially true.

A modern comparison would be the Nine, perhaps. Ultimately, they largely all sought and seek the same goal. But they approach it in very different ways.

[haughty stump]

Ok fair enough

[haughty stump]

The what now?but nothing within the campaign

[haughty stump]

We do? Weird I finished lightfall but can’t remember, although my lightfall was weird in the last mission, when they say “we’re too late they found the veil” I didn’t get that cutscene .

[haughty stump]

Oh in that cutscene?!

Wait no I’m confused
So nezarecs pyramid was on the moon, I thought that was his body while his head was on the witness ship, but since the witness attacked the traveler at the start, then one,
Was the witness on the moon?!
And two how did Nezarecs ship end up on Neptune?

[slow berry]

The witness was not on the moon

nezarec's pyramid is still on the moon

the raid takes place on the witness' pyramid, near the traveler

you can see the traveler in the distance during the root of nightmares raid

(and also a crucible map)

[haughty stump]

What?! So half of Nezarecs body is still there?!

[slow berry]

we supposedly collected the parts of his body during plunder

[haughty stump]

Huh that is interesting, and weird cause why I open the raid on Neptune?

[slow berry]

and used it to make the nezcafe

[haughty stump]

Oh I remember that! Not from doing the season cause I was broke

[slow berry]

because the director is a flawed system and makes each destination the de-facto place to access any of the content from that expansion

theoretically you'd expect it to be somewhere in open space but then you'd go "where's my raid, huh"

see also how garden of salvation is on the moon

[haughty stump]

Real dawg! It should be like how the timeline is, not even gonna lie, and when you click on the expansion opens up it’s like on D1 where you see the whole track of missions. And then ends at the raid

[slow berry]

there's been discourse on that

i'll reserve my thoughts for the moment

[haughty stump]

Well I think the director and better tracked missions can coexist

Similar to d1

But!

[slow berry]

(A screenshot from a youtube video where you can see it in-game rather than an art concept)

you can track it throughout the raid and see how you move relative to it, pretty cool

[haughty stump]

Well maybe there could be a campaign tab in the quest section, but instead of just tracking it, opens up timeline of missions and lets you play them ig. Idk these are small annoying issues that if you say you don’t care that much you get downvoted like hell

Btw fuck destiny 2 Reddit community, all I’ve seen is just a dozen posts about how they fucking hate everything!

[haughty stump]

Nezcafe?

Also his body parts don’t rot?

Wait what was his sin anyway?

In nezarecs sin

[slow berry]

no

[slow berry]

they made tea out of nezarec's body parts

so they could wake up osiris after savathûn left his body

[slow berry]

"He is that which is end. That which covets sin. The final god of pain—the purest light, the darkest hour. And He shall rise again. When the guiding shine fades and all seems lost He will call to you. Fear not. All He offers is not as dark as it may seem. For Nezarec is no demon, but a fiend, arch and vile in ways unknown. He is a path and a way, one of many. And his sin—so wicked, so divine—is that he will never cower when dusk does fall, but stand vigilant as old stars die and new Light blinks its first upon this fêted eternity."

not to be like that but it's literally in the lore tab for nezarec's sin

[haughty stump]

lol my fault, I didn’t read that far,the description a I read stopped at and his sin Is so wicked

Also how is that sinful

[haughty stump]

Wait purest light? Bro has the light?!
Also what is bro offering?

He is such an interesting concept

Why would bro who is so immortal

Listen to the witness?

[slow berry]

the implication is that nezarec's sin is never dying, never leaving

always being an intrinsic part of the universe

as the final god of pain, this in turn implies suffering will always exist

[haughty stump]

Also if the witness ends the universe, wouldn’t that kill Nezarec? I get Rhulk dude killed his own world and just wants to prob end the universe, but him?

[haughty stump]

So he will manifest himself

Forever

It’s like in jjk where cursed energy will always make cursed spirits

For as long as humanity has negative emotions

Who gave bro this power 😭

Had to be the winnower

No way

It’s not

[haughty stump]

It’s funny cause we be immortal too just without that weird suffering stuff

[slow berry]

nezarec is interesting in the sense that he appears to be a genuine, un-stoppable universal force, or at least is extremely adept in abusing this universal force

(My money is on the latter, since Nightmares appear to be our third Darkness element)

[slim girder]

You can't kill nightmares. Only banish them. That's the best defence against nezarec because killing his physical body isn't enough and he can never truly die

[slow berry]

no he was like that before that

lol lmao

[haughty stump]

I wonder if this works for lust, envy, etc

[haughty stump]

Bro what?! He was there like even during the garden shit?

Destiny’s powerscaling in gameplay is so wack

How tf are we able to kill Rhulk and Nezarec?

[slow berry]

nezarec wasn't around before the universe started i don't think, but nightmares were maybe probably

[haughty stump]

And how could we kill Savathun in the campaign if she could kill Nezarec at the height of his power?

[haughty stump]

Wait he isn’t the creator of nightmares?

[slow berry]

rhulk we kill because he's arrogant and only actually starts fighting in the last ten seconds of the fight, otherwise he just wipes us

[haughty stump]

Bro needs to get laid so he can let go of hatred

I wonder who he has to hate

[slow berry]

nightmares appear to be an intrinsic part of the universe and have been strongly implied to be the third darkness element

just like strand and stasis

[slow berry]

nezarec we kill because we literally catch him brand new in an unstable body

[haughty stump]

Nightmare… hmm how does that fit into “same” and shit? Cause darkness is weird

It’s meant to be the mental/emotional state opposed to physical
But strand freezes cells to absolute zero (physically) and strand does both,manipulating string theory that binds our consciousness or something ( does that mean when we use strand we are fucking up someone else’s brain?)

[slow berry]

stasis does not freeze anything actually

it's a rather interesting thing

it's not ice

let me see if i can find the bit

it's about your perception of the world iirc

things freeze because they are frozen from your perspective and you force that on the world

[haughty stump]

There is no way dawg 💀💀 years of lore and the best Bungie comes up with is “ he got !!cocky”. Omg it makes sense I get it, but it still feels lame man 😭, what could have happened is we find a way to imitate being the witness and make Rhulk depressed to THEN catch him lacking in between phases but like lmao 😭😹

[slow berry]

i mean the entire raid is that

he's trying to invite you and check you out and you keep denying him

in the end he gets angry and starts swatting at you until near the end when he realizes you're an actual threat

he then apologizes to the witness for being failing him

[haughty stump]

Ik it wasn’t tha, but I thought it was a state of entropy. “Stillness” is what darkness wants, which

1. Wdym darkness wants anything? It’s like light, maybe the veil and traveler want stuff but not the forces themselves. Unless… the forces come from the beings 🤔
2. Why would something mental and emotional focused give a shit about stillness

[slow berry]

he's also one of the few raid bosses where you do damage while actively fightiing him

[slow berry]

darkness doesnt want anything

[haughty stump]

Perception?

[slow berry]

youre operating on real destiny 1 lore

darkness is just part of the universe, like light

light pertains to physical matter while darkness pertains to consciousness

[haughty stump]

Yes but isn’t the winnower the origin of the darkness? Same with Gardener? Cause does that mean the traveler isn’t the origin of the light?

[slow berry]

light and darkness exists in the universe regardless

the traveler and the veil are also implied to be connected somehow

[haughty stump]

Yea but some people say the winnower isn’t the veil

[slow berry]

the rule the traveler introduced wasn't light, it was paracausality

[slow berry]

it isnt

[haughty stump]

But the gardener is the traveler right?

[slow berry]

we generally assume it to be, probably

[haughty stump]

The what now? Wait it made a rule?

[haughty stump]

So kill the traveler and the veil, would light and darkness naturally make a replacement? Like how killing Nezarec means nothing as he naturally comes back?

[slow berry]

light and darkness dont come from the traveler nor the veil

they just exist

[haughty stump]

Yea. I get it, I don’t like it though, sure I come off as judgemental and I have no qualifications to do so but I wish it was handled in a certain way, considering savathun is the GOD OF CUNNING it would have been nice to use her logic on a being like Rhulk.

[haughty stump]

Yes but the traveler and veil come from light and darkness right? Which is why killing them would be useless

I’m jus trying to pass logic

[slow berry]

Why do you think Rhulk is stuck on her throne world inside a swamp, lmao

[slow berry]

no

its 1am tho i cant really continue this and im not the best for it anw

maybe someone else can go into what we know about the traveler and unveiling

[haughty stump]

That’s Alr thank you so much so far

Every answer learned opens two more questions

I love this game

[haughty stump]

Tricked yea.

Also it’s just funny

Bro didn’t realize we were a threat until it was too late

I’m shooting rockets at you bro, how are you not feeling any pain until you get to 1 HP😭😭😭

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/s/Wr2o8SyDTR

This is just funny

I’m guessing they think the winnower was the witness

Also they say Rhulk is coming back

Which ig ?

[slow berry]

He could've had, but the guardian carrying his remains has a crash and Rhulk starts taking over him

So he detonates his sparrow, ending them both in a small nuclear explosion.

[haughty stump]

Yea but then he can come back again anyway?

Ngl the traveler lowk a fraud, bro should have made disciples like the witness,

Like bro Rhulk could destroy worlds barehanded

Fuck a guardian gonna do 😭?

[slim girder]

Something not that. We're not supposed to be planet destroyers and war crazed people like the hive. Yes there were people like the warlords, dredgen yor and the other dredgens but we are supposed to protect the weak.

The traveler/Gardener wants life to blossom.

As for "Fuck a guardian gonna do" we have literally beat the hive so hard we turned their own logic onto them and are even better at it.
Eliksni is all but down to 2 main houses with one them being our allies.
We beat Caiatl in her challenges and secured an alliance with her.
And more recently we destroyed the witness, a being which so far has been the most powerful being we've seen in the universe

Even the vex know it's better for their survival to avoid us unless we start going into their domains.

[haughty stump]

Ig you right but I mean for the travelers protection

If he had people like Rhulk Nezarec, savathun

Maybe not calus

😹

Would he have to constantly run away?

[haughty stump]

Took an army of us against an army of them .

Lowk Mithraz should have the light

[slim girder]

Rhulk, nezarec and calus were all killed by us along with their leader so safe to say we are more than enough in terms of protection for the traveler.
Just 6 of us in a raid was enough to beat Oryx as well.

[haughty stump]

He deserves it

[slim girder]

He does to an extent. It was him who distilled that potion that cured Osiris.
He can manipulate these energies and that's what the eliksni did when they were blessed by the traveler.
Not everyone who has the light gets it in the same way as us

[haughty stump]

Ok but
Rhulk was beaten due to arrogance
Nezarec we got lucky cause he was fresh
And calus just a bitch.
Lowk never realized how we were able to defeat Oryx either 😭 but my point is that in terms of powerscaling these beings mog us so damn hard

[haughty stump]

Ohh I see

[haughty stump]

And this is from the witness mind you

Not the winnower

( oryx an exception)

so it’s like all these powerful people not even the traveler equivalent has.

Also all those alliances came from the vanguard we did all the work.

[slim girder]

That's the point. They all were arrogant and we have time and time again shown that we're a lot more powerful than they realise.
We beat oryx by freeing light that he himself had corrupted. And detonating them.

Using what's known as "bomb logic"

[slim girder]

Again the traveler has all of us. And all the ultra powerful beings the witness had whether it was through luck or not are still dead. We still fought every one of them.

[haughty stump]

I thought bomb logic, is strength through combination and emergence of ideas? Not actual bombs lol

[haughty stump]

Ohh I see it, one guardian is not equal to one hive or fallen, it’s like 10,000 so having thousands of guardians rather than the witness who has like 10 strong asf people and much weaker everybody else, we still have the same scale of power

[slim girder]

Bomb logic is the idea that multiple things coming together be they people or objects will create something powerful more powerful than any one thing like the sword logic believes.
It took 6 of us and purifying the corrupted light oryx had to kill him.

[haughty stump]

Ig bomb logic applies here cause our new ideas from everyone together which is what the traveler intended to do is what beats out the sword logic

It’s funny cause the witness says we are like the sword logic cause we just have this never ending cycle of killing foes for more rewards

[slim girder]

Bomb logic can also work against us as well.
It was 6 of us, riven and a wish that cursed the dreaming city.

[haughty stump]

But isn’t the witness also an example of the sword logic? Through strength wants to impose a single idea on the universe

[haughty stump]

Is that curse gone yet? I mean Tbf that’s just ahamkara doing what ahamkara wants, I’m pretty sure if Oryx did the same thing, then said curse would happen again

[haughty stump]

Hmmm very true

[slim girder]

Curse has been there since it started.
We still have not found a way to get rid of it and the awoken there have been suffering ever since. Forced to repeat events over and over.

[haughty stump]

It’s a time loop?!

[slim girder]

It's been theorised the shattered cycle might have some ties to the dreaming city curse but we won't know until we actually see it

[slim girder]

Yes.

[haughty stump]

I thought it was just more taken pop up

How was Petra at the last stand against the witness I wonder when

Then*

She should be stuck

Also can’t vex technology do something about that

[slim girder]

She and also Mara are different.

[haughty stump]

They are badass true

[slim girder]

No. Again we currently have no way of stopping this curse for now

[haughty stump]

I’m just theorizing and trying to make logical connections 😭🙏

My apologies

[slim girder]

Everything we can think of has been tried but only savathun would possibly have a solution.
Again people have theorised that shattered cycle might give us a way to finally break it but we won't know until we see it.

[slim girder]

That's fine but sadly this is just one of those things that doesn't have an answer yet because it has been written or anything

The story isn't there yet

A solution won't appear until bungie is ready for it to appear

[haughty stump]

You are right for sure. But we beat the shattered cycle dungeon right? So what did that accomplish?

[slim girder]

Shattered throne. All that did was remove a taken threat but they will never permanently die because of the loop.
The whole cycle was really a "murder battery" for savathun to feed her worm through.
By putting a whole city into a endless cycle of violence through deception she would gain power

Savathun when she had her worm grew in strength through deception.

[haughty stump]

Holy! So it comes back again and again ?!

The dungeon I mean

And that weird witch

So riven was acting on orders from savathun

[slim girder]

Yes. And it has been since it started. The curse resets goes through 3 phases each week and then resets.

[slim girder]

Yes. When oryx died by our hands savathun made her move and bargained with Riven.

[haughty stump]

And if we kill the witch before the reset it merely resets it right then and there

[slim girder]

It'll reset regardless of what we do. Believe me we've tried everything

[haughty stump]

I wonder how as soon as taking Riven he couldn’t make her get rid of the traveler?

Like oryx is super smart and a stratigest

[blazing wasp]

Imagine how unbelievably fucking pissed the witness would've been if this happened

But also there's limits to an ahamkaras power

[slim girder]

Oryxs wish was to "take" riven. But when he died Riven regained her free will while still being taken.
Also savathun is a lightbearer now. If there was no traveler then she wouldn't be able to get the light

[haughty stump]

I’m confused if we kill the witch on day 2 will it come back by end of week 3 or will the curse reset on day 2 and then reset ( if we don’t kill the witch) back in 3 weeks from day 2?

[haughty stump]

“Riven wish the witness to be dead”

Boom

[haughty stump]

I meant oryx.

Once you take riven

You can do whatever you want and not face any repercussions of what typically ails people who try to wish from an ahamkara right?

What did oryx ever do with Riven once he had her?

[haughty stump]

Yea I figured, now lore wise what kind of limited

Limits*

[slim girder]

Not possible

As Uke said there are limits to this ability.

The craziest use we've seen of this power was cayde being brought back to life inside the traveler due to crow unintentionally wishing he could see cayde again "No ghost, no Light" and that's exactly what happened

[jagged badge]

If it were that simple, we wouldn’t have faffed around with using Riven’s wish to enter the Traveler at all

[haughty stump]

Ofc not which is why I kinda wanted to know how the limits of ahamkara wishes go

[haughty stump]

I see well
What did oryx do with riven after she was taken

[jagged badge]

I don’t think he really got a chance to. We kicked his ass pretty immediately

[dim minnow]

the implication is that Oryx did make a wish to her as their agreement

Riven said he could "take whatever he wanted" as long as he made a wish

and whatever the wish was, Riven granted which did end up screwing Oryx over in an unspecified way

[jagged badge]

Oh I see

[slow berry]

Mithrax has some degree of the connection with the Traveler the same way the Speaker or Micah-10 do as well iirc

helps communicate the visions from the traveler in the pale heart

[slow berry]

The Ahamkara use energy to create the wishes then feed on the difference between what is granted and the wish

The way I personally understand it is feeding on the difference between language and reality, this "space between words"

The bigger the wish, the more energy it requires, and thus, barring self-sacrificial circumstances, Ahamkara need to both have this energy and, unless they're fixing to die, twist the wish well enough to get some nourishment on the backside

Now the Witness was

a big fucking deal

And we did sort of kill every single Ahamkara, and the one we had access to was a ghost

[slow berry]

IIRC what happened there was that Oryx wanted to take Riven, but Riven knew she would then be under Oryx's will. Therefore, she says to him that that he can take her, as long as he wishes for it. The wish, then, is for Oryx to take Riven, and the space-between-words is that she's Taken, but maintains her will.

[slow berry]

The Nine were worried about this and, indeed, the implication was that it would be a Really Big Fucking Deal

so they killed all the Ahamkara children they had

It appears to be that they did this like, immediately after Riven was taken, as well.

and the Nine were really banking on those Ahamkara

And the Nine are more than willing to put the universe at risk to reach their goals, so it does make you wonder just really how bad it could've been if it made all of them go "holy fucking shit dump it all NOW"

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/reextinction

[slow berry]

Besides what other people have mentioned, we defeat Oryx by starving him, basically

In the leadup to King's Fall, we slowly destroy his entire tithing system

Starting with Crota, slaying most of his Court in the Court of Oryx activity in the Dreadnaught, then in the raid killing the Warpriest, Golgoroth, his daughters, and finally himself.

[haughty stump]

I see

[haughty stump]

Ohhhh that makes sense for sure

[haughty stump]

I wonder why oryx didn’t kill riven then after being tricked

[haughty stump]

Yea definitely, these guys suck

[slow berry]

What for? He got what he wanted

Oryx and Riven both knew what was going on, and laughed about it

[haughty stump]

What? What about rivens eggs?

[haughty stump]

Which was what? He couldn’t control riven, he gained nothing from taking her

[slow berry]

They had baby Ahamkara, not eggs.

Chicken eggs are not chickens, after all

[slow berry]

Access to the dreaming city iirc?

For all the good that did

[haughty stump]

Oh I see, ew

The nine are fucked

[haughty stump]

Bruh 😭, Tbf Oryx prob just did for his sword logic thing

[ember storm]

he did control her while he was alive

it's the entire reason Taranis had to hide their eggs, Oryx spoke through Riven like a puppet trying to get to them

Riven only regained her autonomy after Oryx died

[haughty stump]

interesting

[ember storm]

and ultimately having a small army of taken Ahamkara would've done a lot for him, plus he just really wanted to

[haughty stump]

yea i'd imagine

he loved taking

also isn't taht kinda against sword logic?

cause why are you using weaker

enemeis?

when they deserve extinction>

[ember storm]

subjugating enemies to bend to your will and wielding them as your own weapon is perfectly in line

sword logic isn't just killing

it's proving that you're suprior, basic hive just do that by killing alot bc they have to for their worms

Xivu has her own unique entire system to drive crowds insane and wholly dedicate them to her war efforts, too

[slow berry]

its the culmination of the sword logic actually

shown to him by the winnower itself

it's not mere possession, its taking the knife and whittling away all your imperfections

[slim girder]

"Victory is not in the unmaking of an enemy, but in the remaking of an enemy into your sword"

[haughty stump]

interesting i see

[haughty stump]

wait the winnower fucked with the sword logic?

well

ig

it makes sense

[slim girder]

It's one thing to kill something to prove you are superior. But to then bend their will and turn them into a weapon you can wield is a step further.

[slow berry]

the sword logic is an imitation of the winnower's principle

[haughty stump]

yea i'm seeing it now

[slow berry]

the idea that a single pattern will exist eternal at the end of the universe

[haughty stump]

i thought it was the darkness's principle.

[slow berry]

"the darkness" isn't a thing

again

[haughty stump]

interesting

[slow berry]

there's no "the darkness"

[haughty stump]

yea it's a force definitely

i'm not saying it's someone

[slow berry]

its not a force

it's not a consciousness or anything

darkness is just consciousness

the stuff inside your mind

what you can think

[slim girder]

The darkness is just a neutral force in the universe. But paracausal beings can manipulate it in certain ways.

Same with the light

Our universe is made of both but the traveler and witness are beings using both forces with agendas

The winnower is also like this

[slow berry]

The Winnower was not like this until very recently fwiw

It didn't give a fuck and only chatted with Oryx because he communed with it directly and genuinely believed in what the Winnower proposes

The Winnower didn't really have an agenda, though, because it simply believes its right.

[slim girder]

Our defeat of the witness definitely has its attention now and might even threaten that logic.

[slow berry]

Its not really threatened

It just thought it was all quite fun, and wants to have some fun as well

The Winnower did not like the Witness at all, notably

Did not mourn its death and did not much care about the whole bastardization of the concept they had going on

[clear abyss]

What exactly is or what was the collapse?

Like what even happened ?

Specifically

[ember storm]

humanity's collapse due to the black fleet

nezarec causing death and destruction bc hes the god of pain

[slow berry]

we dont have details on what specifically happened

we have some events

[ember storm]

plagues, earthquakes, biblical disaster stuff

also some black fleet stuff just hunted down ships the old fashioned way

like some entity (theorized to be an unknown disciple, afaik) just latched itself onto ishtar's ship and stuck a weapon onto it

also Titan had its ocean stretched like an egg

[slow berry]

they were just out there killin' people

deadass

[ember storm]

he was in it for the love of the game

[slow berry]

oh wait

we do have a short visual from the collapse

[ember storm]

Witness just had the literal God of Pain in its pocket and let him run loose

[ember storm]

just some inkblot nonsense

destinypedia also incorrectly listed it last time i checked

[slow berry]

no, from edge of fate

[ember storm]

oh

[slow berry]

lodi's visions

[ember storm]

i didnt do that one

[slim girder]

Solar system surronded, planets sundered by the witness, humanity driven to extinction with fire, monsters, natural disasters everywhere.
Titan was literally "pulled" into a shape of an egg by the black fleet and then released causing a cataclysmic tsunami.

[slow berry]

https://tenor.com/view/lodi-strange-trip-insane-fall-the-nine-lodi-destiny-2-gif-8809621704668342891

[clear abyss]

Wtf

[ember storm]

also the hive were like

just hanging out on the moon

it wasn't part of the plan they were just there

slaughtered the K1 crew and all but they were kinda just fucked anyway so

[slim girder]

Not to mention Rasputin was operating on its "Twilight Exigent" directive where to ensure human survival it would even kill other people it deemed as threats

Like on titan Rasputin shot down a whole colony ship to kill one scientist.

[ember storm]

i could solo

[slow berry]

idea: what if in the future we help the tharsis reformation with some stuff in the future and they reward us with a gun but they go "we sent it to the past btw so its been with you for ten years lol" and its vex mythoclast

[haughty stump]

i see that makes sense, light and dark have no practical use until a paracausal being comes along, so in essence i wonder how paracausal beings come into existence then.

i swear tiktok edits make you cry of the tragedy of the Hive in a whole another way

putting Savathun's speech with Radiohead's All I Need, is foul 😭

[slim girder]

Darkness is different. You don't have to be paracausal to use it. As demonstrated by Elisie bray and most recently Dredgen Bael

The problem in their case though is safety. One wrong move and they can't come back if it consumes them

Same for zavala now that he doesn't have a ghost anymore

[haughty stump]

what? i'm kind of confused now ngl

[haughty stump]

well, i take it, being a battle of the mind and requireing immense focus, maybe for the light stuff ( solar, arc, void), you gotta buff or something, to handle that

[slim girder]

Light and dark are tangible forces in this universe. Paracuasal beings just have an easier time utilising them it seems like guardians who are born through the light of the traveler.

Light is a bit more exclusive it seems though compared to darkness which is all about the mind

[trim grotto]

One of the themes is Light Is Given (by the Traveler*), Darkness Is Taken.

*sort of usually

[haughty stump]

oh yes i see, stasis, and strand come from the winnower not the veil, but i wonder then if light is a tangeible force, is the traveler in control of it? like a monopoly on this force? or could another paracausal being come along utilizing the light, and bestowing it as it sees fit?

[slim girder]

They don't come from the winnower. Again as Mael said darkness is taken. You think Bael, Elisie or even Eramis asked for permission from the winnower? As for the Veil strand doesn't come from it but it's more like the veil disrupts the web around it to a point people such as guardians can see pockets of it in real space.

[haughty stump]

i mean, both are always, right there as principles of the universe or something, i kinda just wonder does the ability to utilize the dark, require a strong mind, regardless of your body?
so in that case to utilize the light you gotta be physically powerful for it, regardless if you have a sentience or brain,.

[haughty stump]

mb sorry didn't mean winnower, but the deep, i forget bro there are so many names for different things 😭 , and different names for the same thing.

wait so, in that case

the winnower is *not * in control of utilizing the darkness?

wait hold up

maybe the winnower isn't physcailly a being in a way

maybe through someones emotions, and perspecitves, it mentally comes to them

like a mental manifestation

Dredgon wants to force his perspective, so maybe thats why he utilizes stasis

[slim girder]

Doesn't come from there either. Light and darkness are just neutral forces of the universe. They don't have "sources" in that sense. The deep is most often associated with taken power. THAT power is currently considered the power the winnower uses.

The winnower is the one who gave the ability to take to Oryx

[trim grotto]

To quote the Speaker, Light is everywhere, in all things. One could assume the same to be said about Darkness, as they're innate forces, simply parts of the universe.

[haughty stump]

ok, but the light and dark, are the source of lets say the balance of the universe?
in which case paracausal beings can utilize these forces
Traveler(gardener), and the winnower, mayube the veil
so far we've seen the only being having the "monopoly" on light is the traveler, but lots of people have been able to use the powers of darkness,
so ig my question is
could we see another paracausal being use the light without the permission of the traveler?
or are they representitives, that come out of the fact that these forces exist and ig have consequences on the universe?
( Traveler being a physical being, phyiscally gives light to who it chooses
winnower being a represnetaive of the darkness, ( which is consciousness, is perhaps within all sentient and strong minded beings, and allows you to take from the "not so physical" thing)
^ this part is kind of a theory idk

[trim grotto]

right okay i can talk now (i was in a call)

[haughty stump]

just in time Mael

[trim grotto]

Technically speaking, we have seen groups utilise Light outside of the Traveler's direct influence.

The Icarus Station from the Golden Age converted solar energy into Solar Light.
The Sacred Splicers utilised their Splicer Gauntlets to manipulate the ambient Light of the universe to aid with their technological manipulation.
Elsie once took what was essentially a paracausal bomb to Europa in an attempt to stop the Deep Stone Crypt and the Vex of Volantis.

And of course there's whatever the Awoken have going on

However, this has never been on the same level as wielding it as Guardians do, not by a long shot.

Because the Guardians aren't just using Light, we're using The Traveler's Light; via the connection that are the Ghosts.

[haughty stump]

yea ig the other drink from a straw while we bathe in a pool of clean water

the traveler is on a whole another scale

which

hold up

stasis doesn't come from the winnower

ok

wait

stasis came from the witness, who must have learned it from the winnower right?

maybe veil came from winnower too

idk

just a thought

[trim grotto]

The current leading theory from Osiris is that The Veil may once have been part of the Traveler. But we don't know anything about the origins of the Traveler beyond the electroweak material suggesting it's been around since the Big Bang, or... the stuff that Unveiling says. But that's propaganda and inherently untrustworthy and self-described as a metaphor to boot.

As for Stasis? Well, not strictly. The Witness had been in possession of the Veil for billions of years, essentially just as long as it has been in this form. Realistically, nothing else tangible had mastery over the Darkness like it did until we discovered Strand largely by accident.

It had time to learn, in other words.

[haughty stump]

" But that's propaganda and inherently untrustworthy and self-described as a metaphor to boot."
this is actually funny to me dawg 😭 destiny straight up gives us fake lore

or not fake