📚lore-discussion

[slow berry]

You might get some flavour text on some armor maybe

[sick yew]

Has there been like any lore on how Neomuna has been holding up in this current day and age

[slim girder]

Not really other than them letting Caiatls psions play with quicksilver

[sick yew]

so Nimbus remains the sole Cloudstrider?

[frigid sparrow]

There's some anomalies in the cloudark due to the golden age AI's reuniting

[sick yew]

Which ones are those

[frigid sparrow]

Soteria and astraea

We sent astraea into neomuna during the side quest for heliostat

Since soteria is part of the cloudark/occlusion

[sick yew]

Isnt one of those the Ai in Heirarchy of needs?

Or am i confusing the names here

[frigid sparrow]

Soteria, yes

[sick yew]

Ah okay

[frigid sparrow]

Astraea was vesper station

[sick yew]

aaaaah

so those two are chilling in the CloudArk now?

[frigid sparrow]

Maybe

Implies they're in the process of looking for one another

And it's causing problems within the cloudark

[sick yew]

Damn

[frigid sparrow]

"citizens fear for their digital integrity" is uh

Kinda really fucking bad!

Guardians causing an accidental mass slaughter of another human civilization

[slim elk]

Oh no!
They have to get out of the metaverse and live in reality!

[sick yew]

Make a Raid set in the CloudArk and itll be fine

[frigid sparrow]

https://tenor.com/view/bungie-marathon-new-marathon-nu-marathon-bungie-marathon-gif-2701323247976763654

[sick yew]

Lmao

[sick yew]

Send Guardians to Tau Ceti 4 and theyll get that shit done in a day

[frigid sparrow]

Digitalized consciousness in clean bright cities with fascistic undertones and the original planet's environment creating a harsh distinction between itself and the industrial areas oh yeah

[slim elk]

Well
The corps hiring you in Marathon lean more antagonists

[blazing wasp]

They all seem like shitters in one way or another

At least Traxus doesn't beat around the bush

[dim minnow]

skin 1 billion runners

[slim elk]

Arachne would utterly love the Guardians senselessly slaughtering each other

[dim minnow]

this message was brought to you by Arachne

[blazing wasp]

They're very upfront about you being a disposable asset to them

[slim girder]

She's on her way there. We launched her from Earth but it's gonna take a long time to get to neomuna

[dim minnow]

she's already there

[blazing wasp]

Nucal values itself so highly it doesn't even properly register you
Mida actively tried hacking you and seems... Unhinged.
Arachne.
Sekgen is basically just Chat GPT-3

[slim girder]

Already? Damn warsats travel fast lol

[sick yew]

Lemme hop in my jumpship and fly circles around her purely to be annoying

[slim elk]

Meanwhile UESC
"Stop trying to poke the space-time anomaly you idiots."

Considering what the corps openly showcase? Ain't blaming them for being trigger happy

[frigid sparrow]

MIDA's real as hell though

[frigid sparrow]

It's not like you should even mind this tbh

Like we're fully aware of our conscious state being the way it is and runner shells being as disposable as they are

Throwing bodies onto the pile doesn't make a difference when the resources are infinite and the job will get done

Nona and sekgen are definitely freaks though (for wanting me to do outpost quests)

[slow berry]

my read of the MIDA thing is that they were hackign you for the same reason they do anything

disrupt, y'know

if you cant take a DDOS can you even do activism

[slow berry]

i'm p sure shells aren't actually very disposable

they're expensive, to the point traxus only bought a few thousand shells

its just that sekiguchi likes the data we provide and is willing to have us debt-finance their research

[frigid sparrow]

oh they're very disposable

[midnight rivet]

wasn't calus dying by season of the haunted

i remember reading somewhere that he was bound to a wheelchair in chosen, and he was in a life support sarcophagus by haunted

[frigid sparrow]

his body was physically decaying through what we learned in presage

however, we conversely also learned that he was looking into egregore fungus and its mind transferring properties

which is how he manifested his mind into the leviathan ship in haunted

and his physical body would later be brought to the witness and reshaped

[midnight rivet]

i think it may have been old age, because the oldest cabal's bodies ossify

hell it happened to his mother

[topaz jolt]

got a lore question about scorn whould their creation be considerd as some form of Necromancy?

[slow berry]

i mean

yes

so would guardians and a handful other things

[slim girder]

The scorn originally are dead eliksni brought back to life through the use of dark ether and wish magic thanks to fikrul.
But in episode revenant fikrul was able to gain the ability to turn a living eliksni into a scorn.

Big part of what makes a scorn is that dark ether. The "polarity" of it.

[dim minnow]

While the methods are different, I do believe Savathun noted that they are very similar.

[acoustic finch]

I miss Nokris

[slim girder]

He's with Oryx and Crota now

[ember storm]

I like to think they still ostracize him in the other realm

That or oryx begrudgingly accepts him since he did technically earn his own throne world during the strike

[fringe sundial]

same

[fringe sundial]

is it stated anywhere what the general eliksni population think about the lucent hive

[frigid sparrow]

not anything specific, when we had a direct intertwining of both during seaosn of the plunder there was more focus on the family drama there

(during the pirate hunts specifically I mean)

[fringe sundial]

that barely counts cause the hive were an afterthought

bungie only put them in specifically because they had to find something to do with them

[slim girder]

Not true. But to answer your question there hasn't really been any eliksni hive relations tbh. The eliksni know the lucent hive are enemies and they help us whenever their skills are needed

But when it comes to hive stuff generally Eris is the go to person for that

[slow berry]

Oryx did kinda eat Riis so

[ember storm]

Whatever negative preconceived notions they had about guardians misusing the traveler’s gifts would actually be entirely accurate when looking at lucent hive

[spark pawn]

Was felwinter stronger than ikora?

[ember storm]

He gaslit a bunch of people into thinking he was using Titan abilities

He was just that guy

But also I think Shaxx decapitated him once

And Ikora kicked Shaxx’s ass

[blazing wasp]

power scaling between guardians is literally stated in lore as a fruitless endeavour by Ikora herself

but we can reasonably assume Ikora is probably a stronger guardian?

[ember storm]

I could beat her

[spark pawn]

Is she the strongest?

[blazing wasp]

see the message above

its not something possible to concretely answer

with the exception of Waltz Avatar, of course, who easily defeats any guardian.

[acoustic finch]

We the strongest

[ember storm]

No it’s me

[acoustic finch]

We

[queen swallow]

Nah, it's Waltz

[hollow fern]

I'm realising I have forgotten seva lore 😅

Could someone sum it up for me please

[spark pawn]

Who is that?

[hollow fern]

They are making a jjk reference

[trim grotto]

...SIVA?

[hollow fern]

Yeah 😅

[trim grotto]

Well, it's a nanite developed by Wilhelmina Bray. Its primary purpose was as a construction tool for colony construction on new worlds, to be loaded upon the Exodus Program ships for the ship AI to command.

There was talk and experimentation regarding body augmentation, with the ultimate goal of immortality as an alternative to Clovis's Exo, but that didn't come to fruition.

After the Collapse, Rasputin used it as bait to draw in and slay Felwinter, and the Iron Lords were essentially collateral in the events of the Ironsbane at Site 6.

It pretty much laid dormant from then on until the Devil Splicers took command of it back in Rise of Iron, and was largely rendered inert after we destroyed the Replication Centre.

[hollow fern]

Thank you

[jagged badge]

!banscam 664211207619870741

[dense pike]

Could not find that user in the server, banning anyway...

Banned!

[jagged badge]

???

[queen swallow]

Yeah that seems like it happens every once in a while where they get banned but not all of the messages get deleted too

[ember storm]

Was it a good deal

[jagged badge]

Oh yeah I’m making good use of it

Only reason they’re banned is so I can gatekeep it from y’all

[ember storm]

[fringe sundial]

what do you guys think its gonna look like when we enter the 4th dimension and 1v8 the nine

and then we stare them down and say

"heh. this is your destiny too (shattered cycle annual pass edition)"

and then VI says

"i guess guardians make their own fate after all... this red war has forsaken us, we need to keep these shadows and go beyond the light. i am the queen of witches and i will make your light fall into a final shape!"

something something edge of fate renegades

[trim grotto]

[slim girder]

Some shit shaw han would say probably

[fringe sundial]

he has said this

[tall radish]

Hmmm

[jagged badge]

Hmmm?

[trim grotto]

Hmmm...

[fringe sundial]

phlegethon I and eunoe are the best lore book entries in either game

theyre so peak

[ashen bolt]

Hmmm

[frigid sparrow]

doesn't matter because shattered cipher beats everything

[slim girder]

Truth to power is clearly the best lorebook ever.

[fringe sundial]

rubicon better

[stoic glen]

What’s the reason for doing The Desert Perpetual raid? Like for SE we fight the witness because he is a big threat, what are we doing in Desert Perpetual?

[slow berry]

There is a bit of text in the quest that has you do Desert Perpetual that explains why we go there at all (its literally just we find out maya is going inside the singularity and we dont want that happening)

As for what is actually happening, Maya is attempting to digitize Unknown Space to understand how the IX control and interact with time

Then iirc the normal version we stop her and in the epic version she succeeds (or we are too late to do anything about it) but we turn back time to make it so it hasn't happened yet and we stop her before it does

[dim minnow]

I think in the Epic version the Vex there are acting on their own

[slim girder]

The main threat posed by the vex in the raid is that maya wants that unknown space purely because of it being made of dark matter.
If vex were able to harness dark matter they would be able to change trillions of timelines simultaneously by only interacting with one timeline if that makes sense.

[stoic glen]

Cool beans

[fringe sundial]

vex with 4 dimensional capabilities bad so we wanna stop them

[stoic glen]

I thought it was made a point that no tech/nobody could turn back time in the campaign. (Could be wrong)

[glass snow]

Curious to see if they can give Vex aura like they’ve done for the other factions

[slim girder]

This is a fact yes and the reason Maya killed III out of anger.

She doesn't like being told that something isn't possible

[stoic glen]

Oh I didn’t know she killed III, thought III was dead for a bit

[slow berry]

The Vex were experimenting with it (which is something the Vex don't normally do) and seemingly succeed in some manner

Enough to have a pyramidion inside Unknown Space

You only go back like

Two minutes

[stoic glen]

Gotcha

[frigid sparrow]

Koregos literally raised itself from the ground you stood on and started shooting orbital lasers that's raw as fuck

Massive fucking seraphim looking quartz harpy

[slim girder]

It's a cutscene from the edge of fate campaign. You see it happen

[frigid sparrow]

This was also my impression, the vex seem to be doing their own experiments in staying alive inside the unknown space/utilizing dark matter properties for their own gain/seeing how other collectives and dimensions are affected by dark matter. Maya is noted to have retreated into the vexnet, and she "proved to the vex that the nine can be used." Which implies a break off point. And also Maya's failing power of her echo not allowing her to control koregos and the other vex.

Maya already killed III and could establish her vex inside its corpse, but by the time we've driven her out and foiled her plans she couldn't regain her strength and resorted to the satellite operation

[glass snow]

Cool raid, but yet to see Vex have interesting campaigns

[sick yew]

Cause how do you make an interesting narrative about a non-verbal faction that thinks entirely different

Renegades made the Vex more interesting than ever and it came at the cost of making them more human which kinda also takes away from their concept

[dim minnow]

I feel if they really lean more into the fucked up shit Vex can do then maybe

the chaos Maya caused could open doors to more interesting Vex characters

[sick yew]

If they made a character similary to Lodi or the Emissary aka a translator/interpreter of sorts for the Vex it could work

[frigid sparrow]

Oztot.. surely..

Or hey maybe quria since they're technically allowed to be alive still a ha ha

[sick yew]

They are?

or you coping

[frigid sparrow]

We learn from the mini dialogue in Enigma Protocol that taken don't truly die, they just go back to the ascendant plane and eventually make their way back. Quria got a couple mentions as well, with the taken infestation causing purges of information, seemingly including that involving Quria. We also don't know what's controlling the taken at this point, since TLOEN wasn't formed yet, and there's nothing connecting it to Savathûn or Xivu

//COND: Asset Query: The Taken.

//COND: Reference file: Blade Transform.

//CORRUPTED: …DATA DEGRADaTION CRTTTICAL…

My biggest spinfoil theory is that Quria ended up becoming uplifted into the Lord of Every Nothing

(in the event of it being something we previously knew)

It is supreme copium but it is TECHNICALLY not out of the question

My beautiful creature..

[trim grotto]

[dim minnow]

Savathun is gonna pull up to Quria who is chilling deep in the A-P and ask if they are up for one final job

[sick yew]

Yoo BigQ remember that time you ran an op for me?

[glass snow]

Or Sovereign the Reaper of Mass Effect

https://youtu.be/R_NAoNd4YyY

[sick yew]

I need to tell you now that I know literally nothing about Mass effect

Like I know it exists but I couldnt tell you a single character name or plot related detail

[glass snow]

Reapers are an ancient robotic race and the primary antagonist of Mass Effect, they come off as largely unemotional but are intimidating af and have really interesting story

[ember storm]

I still love the interpretation that Savathun was genuinely not expecting Quria to go down like that and just went “oh fuck they’re early” and had to scramble to get Lakshmi killed as a cover to escape and contact Mara

Because like it was a bunch of drip feed manipulation for months and then all of a sudden “Lakshmi here is a vex portal go kill all fallen refugees”

[dim minnow]

It did seem like Savathun was preparing for this. The factions were already on their way to staging a coup which she was helping with before Quria was killed.

[frigid sparrow]

It also helped in how sudden it was. She could get away with it because of the supposed safety after defeating Quria.

[slim elk]

From her reaction and talk of capturing Quria beforehand it seems likely she got caught off guard by us just killing it

So her Plan A was to try and subvert the city itself and have indirect control over the Guardians

[frigid sparrow]

her goal was always to shift the status quo into vanguard control to diminish trust within the civilian classes (give or take)

either quria demolishes the city through the endless night, or savathun takes it upon herself to begin the coup

[slim elk]

And plant people she can influence into the Vanguard.
Boom. She gets to point out who we kill next

The conspirators were sounding off on Saint and Saladin to see if they were susceptible

[grand jungle]

Cannon lore wise what class is the strongest

[slim girder]

Warlock

But ofc this is debatable

[frigid sparrow]

hunter

[trim grotto]

Can't really divide it by class, to be honest. Some could argue the Warlocks have the most flashy examples, but it really comes down to the individual person, and a lack of equal references to point to doesn't mean the other classes are less capable.

Tl;Dr
No answer

[ember storm]

it's me

[lofty badge]

so..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_vd1DUIOB4 can we just have a rebel faction of vanguard hating humans and guardians now?

[blazing wasp]

evaze

Could be spot on, could be outright misinformation

Take it with not a grain of salt, but enough salt to crush a man

[lofty badge]

but is he not outright reading from new lore tabs ingame?

[blazing wasp]

Didn't watch the video, the guy just has a reputation and its funny to poke at em

His infamous "calus will return as the witness which is the winnower in lightfall" video has done irreparable damage

[frigid sparrow]

So, there's a couple of things to note

One, a lot of the characterization we see from the guardian games is a bit dramatized to fit within stereotypes

[dim minnow]

yeah, those Titans in particular are known to be very...

stupid

"it wouldn't be confidential if we weren't confident"

[frigid sparrow]

Titans are jocky dudebros, warlocks are nerdy without much street smarts, and hunters are total edgelords

Now, this does still slightly align with previous lore, both guardian games and otherwise

There has been a dissenting force within the tower- however, that seems primarily made up of civilian forces, not guardians like the hunter group

[dim minnow]

Guardians aren't very likely to actually side with Bael

though if this whole Civilian revolt happens, who knows how many Guardians will react to it in a rather unsavory way

[frigid sparrow]

However, there is the faction of the Concordat, who's been having consistent guardian games lore mentions... With no real implications as of yet

That faction IS guardian aligned, albeit with minimal information surrounding it, and no major actual plot threads aside from some allusions and nods

[slim elk]

From what's been gathered, the implication is they wanted Guardians to rule over the city with no say from other factions

...which pretty much fits the current city TBH

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah, it's implied that they did want a sort of "vanguard supremacy"

I think there was a lore tab somewhere relating to how the vanguard being the defacto leaders of the city post- splicer aligned with their beliefs

[slim elk]

City itself has a lot of its dogma purged as of late

Even the Praxics seems to be forced to accept darkness use (even as they are dragged kicking and screaming as they do so)

Not much real reason to keep the Concordat in Exile when their beliefs are in de facto effect already

(Would be a good reason to kick off the civilain revolt but Bungies current state leaves that doubtful)

[frigid sparrow]

It's something that can't really be translated too well into gameplay unfortunately

Sere is the first outright human we've killed, with Uldren being way long ago, and both have their means of plausible deniability (sere being robed and masked, uldren being an awoken)

Having a human faction doesn't really fit well since the current human characters are fitting into roles with paracausal methods of fighting, and no highly established faction that would translate to gameplay

The closest relative "scrappy" faction is the eliksni, who... They hate, lol

[dim minnow]

@fringe lantern

[slim girder]

<@&1019968308973416448>

[dense pike]

/join NaturedSpider50#3409 has been banned!

[dim minnow]

sigh Calc never answers my calls anymore...

[slim girder]

Might be time to let go Dova.

[ember storm]

[slim girder]

Was watching some old D1 TTK stuff and even though Oryx was definitely a bad guy at least he recycled.
Broke down his own troops into chitin for his ships.

[fringe sundial]

oryx was also very progressive

he considered everyone equal as long as they were either
a. taken
b. hive
c. his killer

[frigid sparrow]

I mean bro changed his gender and everyone was cool with it

[queen swallow]

Someone at Bungie: What if we make one of the coolest villains of all time a transman
The rest of Bungie:

[zealous nebula]

I should make a trans oryx emote

[ember storm]

i'll do it for five bucks

[trim grotto]

Honestly I think that entirely comes down to Seth

He wasn't afraid to get creative with his writing and strictly speaking it doesn't actually affect the game, so he probably had free reign

[slow berry]

Xivu Arath is a knight also right

[trim grotto]

aye

[trim grotto]

I'm fairly sure I remember Seth once saying Oryx wasn't written to be a human trans analogy per se, but thought it was pretty cool that trans folks were like "hell yeah, sick-ass villain rep"

[frigid sparrow]

god damn it there was a funny post I saw of oryx with a trans flag he/him pin on his chest and I can't find it

[slow berry]

im sure it was at some point to be a bit of insect biology but its incredibly cool to have him be a trans man

[trim grotto]

yeah exactly

[tawdry wigeon]

So I’m playing d1 for the first time it’s sick but when is the vex going to the moon and why are lunar hive on earth?

Also taken as well

And I’m talking about the cosmodrome

I’ve played d2 already I kinda know its lore already

[dim minnow]

1. Vex don't appear on the Moon until post-Garden of Salvation raid in Shadowkeep when we pissed them off
2. The Hive in the Cosmodrome were an invasion force that came from the Moon.
3. Taken first appeared in Sol with Oryx's arrival in The Taken King

[slim girder]

When the hive secured the moon they did have incursions onto earth. The collapse also saw them coming down on earth to

Taken were first discovered on phobos when we caught a cabal signal and found the whole place under attack and cabal fleeing which is something caba would never do normally

[tawdry wigeon]

Oh gotcha so the vex came then. Are vex at all in d1? They are like my fav thing and i really wanna see if they are in this game

[cobalt sonnet]

who are the 3 astronauts walking on mars at the start of destiny 2

[tawdry wigeon]

Gotchaaa

[slim girder]

Jacob Hardy, M. Mihaylova, and Ulysses Qiao

[dim minnow]

Jacob Hardy, Qiao, and Mihaylova

they were part of the Ares 1 mission

[cobalt sonnet]

what’s their lore

[slim girder]

The vex in D1 at the time were still a fairly unknown force in Sol. The first time they appear in D1 is on venus

[dim minnow]

you're better off reading it from the Season 3 Eververse armor lore tabs

ever heard of Ishtar.net?

[tawdry wigeon]

Right I haven’t been there yet but I remember them when playing early in d2

With the portal iirc

[dim minnow]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/

[tawdry wigeon]

Or was that up

Io

Hmm

[slim girder]

Their most famous stronghold the vault of glass is also on venus and has so far still been arguably the most powerful we have ever seen the vex

True control over time and everything that enters the vault

[cobalt sonnet]

nope

[tawdry wigeon]

Got it okay. I really feel like playing d2 again after some time but idk if it’s playable without getting the last dlc

I wanna jump in some stuff

[slim girder]

Not at all. You can still play it just fine without the current DLC

[tawdry wigeon]

Really? Last one I got was the Kepler one

[slim girder]

All other expansions are still avaliable and you can get the whole collection insanely cheap some days

Just wait for a sale

[tawdry wigeon]

I got them when they were expensive unfortunately back when they all released

[slim girder]

I see. Then again you'll be just fine and you're not missing out without the atest DLC

You have the whole light and dark saga

[tawdry wigeon]

Sure sure

I wanna go and visit the vex stuff again if possible I missed that faction lol

[slim girder]

Vex in D2 didn't have too much plot imo. There were of course some plot but in the course of the light and dark saga it us us against the forces of the witness with the vex acting more as a general threat we'd need to deal with from time to time in seasonal stories. Since vex don't have "leaders" or talk it's very hard to give them depth which is why Maya "The conductor" is adding that depth by giving the vex she makes independent thought and turning them into more of a community than a collective.

[tawdry wigeon]

They need a lot more lore imo

Like they feel like filler

The current post light dark saga shouldn’t exist imo

They should have focused on them

[slim girder]

Again Vex are hard to add depth to. They're robots who sole purpose is to make everything else into vex and that is all they do and can even think about. But again Maya in this new saga is adding that depth which is important as this whole new saga was supposed to open new stories and mysteries, one of which ofc being this sort of civil war happening rn within the vex collective thanks to Maya

The Vex are getting that focus they needed now

[tawdry wigeon]

I get the whole not enough depth thing but it’s fiction and if the writer wants it the plot will work just fine

Not saying they are doing a bad job or anything

Since now they’ve gotten some attention

[slim girder]

Not really no. We already have established rules in destiny over the last decade so big changes don't come often. The vex have been they way have for presumably billions of years and only now thanks to maya and her echo are changing. Vex NEVER change because they're not capable of thinking like that.

It's taken an artefact made from light and dark fused together to cause this change

[tawdry wigeon]

Maya did lose control and we have independent vex no?

[slim girder]

Not entirely. She damaged her echo when killing III with it but still commands some vex. But as I said there is now a civil war of sorts happening within the vex with some of mayas vex breaking away and forming the new group tharsis reformation in renegades and the other main collective actively telling maya to "Get lost"

The vex are in a weird period of change and are broken. Even the Sol divisive in the black garden are still mourning the loss of the witness whom they worshipped

[tawdry wigeon]

So basically a messy situation

I could see how their involvement could be introduced at least for one of those groups if they aren’t already involved

I haven’t played since the Kepler stuff so I may not know some new stuff

[slim girder]

Yes but this situation is adding the depth to them people were asking for. And it's not just the vex. The taken now called the "Dire taken" have a new leader named the lord of every nothing who is growing in the ascendant plane bit by bit.

[slim girder]

All of this started in episode echoes just after the final shape was over.

If you're looking for a start point to it all

Heliostat is the most recent update to what maya has been up to with the vex. And in Renegades tharsis reformation are an interesting vex faction who like crime, dressing up in clothes and gambling..

[tawdry wigeon]

Got it okay

I missed the fire taken thing

Plus the renegades stuff

Thankss

[slim girder]

The Desert perpetual raid also gave us some insight on mayas plans. The plot of the raid involves us stopping the vex from digitising the decaying space made from the dead body of III. If they succeeded they would be able to use dark matter to change trillions of timelines simultaneously.

[tawdry wigeon]

Oh right something else, winnower wasn’t actually the bad “guy” right? What’s up with them cuz i feel like not much was told about them

[tawdry wigeon]

Ahhhh gotcha okay

Right right

Dark matter and eclipse and stuff

Oooof

[slim girder]

The winnower is still a bit of a mystery. Not inherently evil but its views go against the things we fight for.
If you're interested in the collections in a ship named Nacre which has a lore tab containing message from the winnower themselves sent to us after the defeat of the witness.

There was also a lore tab from the artefact during episode heresy where the winnower called us a "difficult friend"

Since then though we haven't heard anything from them.

[tawdry wigeon]

Hmm okay thanks I’ll look into it

Idk I feel like we have yet to see some deep darkness stuff

Like the nightmares and nezarecs power

[slim girder]

Nightmares and nezarec were touched on in final shape with reports from Eris saying they could be an untapped source of darkness. But that's the most we've heard about it.
As for nezarec his influence was a big plot point of episode revenant as Mithrax was starting to lose control and nezerec was slowly corrupting his mind with him becoming more violent as time went on.

He was cured through the use of the echo in that episode but nezerecs influence is still locked away in mithraxs mind.

[tawdry wigeon]

Hm I’m coping but I hope we see something related to that as a new subclass

Ngl since prismatic the gameplay has been boring ash

[slim girder]

Everytime something red appears in destiny people ask if it's the new subclass. We just had this debate when eclipse energy got introduced in renegades.

Even though coming into contact with it violently kills guardians permanently people stil want it as a sublcass

[tawdry wigeon]

Idc about the color or whatever I just wanna see something interesting. When I saw the matter thingy in Kepler I thought it was gonna be sick until I played and god it was repetitive

[tawdry wigeon]

I saw that ofc it’s not a thing and will never be

Anyone believing it sounds ridiculous

[slim girder]

Kepler abilites were more just us using dark matter to augment ourselves and our paracausal ablities but it was never advertised as new subclass stuff or anything. Just a new way to interact with a world and imo i liked it.

[tawdry wigeon]

Ni it wasn’t but I thought it would offer something more

Being a ball the whole time isn’t exactly fun

[slim girder]

I like it. But I do believe a lot of its hate comes from control schemes rather than the ability itself

[dapper kayak]

i hate that it's just the ball and relocator

[slim girder]

What about mattermorph?

[dapper kayak]

ah

i will still make this point but add "and mattermorph"

cause they dont meaningfully change

[fringe sundial]

imo we will never see the winnower

[slim girder]

One of the first things it said to us was "Be seeing you" after congratulating us on defeating the witness.
It's definitely on its way. As for what form a being of that significance takes that's a complete mystery

[fringe sundial]

its gonna stay in the background

[ember storm]

wouldnt that be one of the last actually

[fringe sundial]

iirc in that same lore entry it was talking about how it was content to play the long game and knew it would inevitably win

[slim girder]

Meeting destiny's equivalent to god is definitely an event that would need a lot of buildup towards.

[slim girder]

Meant first more in the sense it was from the first message sent directly to us.

[slim girder]

The winnower has always been like that. But our actions have caught it's attention. It won't tip the scales but it definitely wants to meet the beings who prevented the end of the universe. All it said was that we'll meet it at some point but again in what form is a mystery and probably won't happen for a long time. But it will happen either way.

[ember storm]

do you think the winnower would like playing stardew

[slim girder]

Probably. Whole universe is its game board

[fringe sundial]

it spent eternity pretty much playing stardew with the gardener

[ember storm]

would it be a fruit or mushroom cave user

probably mushroom actually that's where egregore comes in

[fringe sundial]

isnt egregore a witness thing

not a darkness thing

[ember storm]

i mean the veil itself looks like a giant darkness mushroom so

[slim girder]

It's a darkness "fungus" of sorts. The witness has used it but it's popped up in other places like the leviathan and glykon in presage.
TLDR it's able to store consciousness and meld minds and memories together

[fringe sundial]

no its a tentacle vase

[slim girder]

Veil is a jellyfish

[frigid sparrow]

it's a sort of "element" the same way nightmares and resonance are tied to the darkness, yet are typically associated with individuals.

our first introduction to egregore in presage taught us a few things- one, it's drawn to the concept of death itself, which is why the scorn were used as test subjects. being both tied to the darkness and undead beings, the Locus of Communion would become a vessel for Calus to commune with the Witness prior to the leviathan's disappearance into the mars anomaly. as such, it DOES have ties to the witness, albeit it's likely more of a telephone line than anything- reaching out within the darkness "network" to find the witness on the other side.

when we revisit the leviathan upon its arrival towards our moon, Calus ended up using the egregore to meld his mind with the leviathan and everything inside it- he was both the ship itself, and all of the enemies we fight. the scorn were linked due to their death, and the loyalists were linked due to them being clones, basically planting the fungus within them before deployment. This was just a natural aspect of the darkness and utilizing its ability, not necessarily tied to the witness.

afterwards, it's not really a major element in the story. we use a fossilized coral version of egregore that spawned presumably from the titan anomaly during its sunsetting, which fuels ahsa and allows memories to form of the witness' past. then it's just some vague "oo scary darkness thing" in the pale heart and when it's everywhere during revenant.

however, it is also tied to the veil.

[E-Morn//Link: NM-O01]

[Msg-Archive//00192410]

E-Morn: Your findings are consistent with mine. The egregore festers where the Veil touches, as if it projects a field across Sol. I could feel it when I took my tithing. Do you mean to map it?

NM-O01: I could, but the egregore only shows us where the Veil's influence has marked our plane in that past. The areas where the Veil's influence currently holds sway are not so easily identified. This does progress some working theories, however.

[cobalt sonnet]

what do we know about the first ever guardians

[dim minnow]

well let's see, during the end of the Collapse, the Traveler cut away small fractions of itself to create Ghosts which was part of the reason why it became dormant for a while

so the first ever Guardians showed up during the very early Dark Age

back then however, they were referred to as "Risen"

now these Risen weren't quite as dedicated to the protection of humanity as the Guardians of the City Age

several Risen just went around doing whatever to survive

although, there were many who became Warlords and used their power to cut out territory that they ruled often with an iron fist

eventually, a group of Risen would form a group known as the "Iron Lords" who dedicated themselves to fighting back against the Warlords and protecting the Lightless

eventually, in the later stages of the Dark Age, a small encampment would begin to form in an unspecified location below the dormant Traveler

as news of this encampment's existence spread, there would be another group of Risen known as the "Pilgrim Guard" who were dedicated to bringing civilians there. Iirc it is suggested they were kinda the inspiration for the term "Guardians"

when the Dark Age started to come to a close, the encampment started to form into the Last City, the Warlords had either been killed off or reformed, and most of the Iron Lords would be killed by SIVA unleashed upon them by Rasputin

it wasn't too long after that the term "Guardians" was adopted

[slim elk]

Risen has made a come back in recent years due to the presence of the Lucent Hive

[torpid flint]

Ahh, time for my yearly reinterest in Desinty 2 Lore.

I was rereading the Clovis Bray Lab notes and a good portion of Beyond Light lore again. I know this has probably been answered, but have we, in the modern day, seen a case of DER again in Exos? Or did the reactivation signal for the exos just kinda... get rid of that issue?

[trim grotto]

Yes, DER remains an issue for Exo without Ghosts. It's an inherent issue with their Exominds and Exobodies.

[slim girder]

^^^
We just haven't seen it first hand in the current setting.

[torpid flint]

Why is it not an issue for Exo Guardians? Is it something to do with the light and "clarity control"(darkness)?

[trim grotto]

It's not entirely clear on the exact nature of it, but we can reasonably suggest it's due to the stabilising and healing nature of a Ghost. Alternatively, yes, it may be a direct result of the Light.

[torpid flint]

I see. Appreciate it.
Is there any lore books you guys would recommend reading to get a grasp of what's now going on? Last time I played was uhh..
I think 2021 was 5 years ago... so i understand WQ and Lightfall somewhat

[slim elk]

DER is muddy and may be on a individual level

Got no less then 3 active Exos that basically were active right before the collapse or directly afterward

Lakshmi, Elsie Bray and Ada-1

None of them got a connection to the light

[dim minnow]

and they're special cases

the original Lakshmi died from the Veil then Maya used it to put her mind into her body

and this copy of Maya's mind was described as child-like which could have helped in getting her used to the exobody

Elsie's body was custom-made to resemble her original body

oh, you also forgot Banshee-44 (aka Clovis)

I believe his body was custom made as well

also the severe memory issues that came from too many reboots

as for Ada, she became an exo when she was a child

we also know her exo frame in particular was unique

[torpid flint]

I think his amount of reboots will forever make him a special case. It is possible that with too many reboots, DER becomes very rare to onset. Considering what happens to Banshee, don't know if it should be called a cure considering the downsides

[torpid flint]

Did we ever get an update to the... ghost fish?

That Elsie Bray had in the cutscence?

[dim minnow]

the Pouka

they seem to be native to Neomuna

and they appear to be some sort of therapist species

like they help you see memories and such

[trim grotto]

We cannot reasonably attribute the number of reboots to stabilisation, given the scenario in which they occured. It's more likely the stable state of Banshee is due to the quality of his Exobody, topping even Elsie Bray's.

[trim grotto]

Take a gander around Neomuna
There's a bunch of them near the main landing zone at the Pouka Pond

[slim girder]

The whole hall of heroes also has them flying around the cloudstrider monuments

[torpid flint]

The higher quality also explaining how Banshee could have so many reboots(i believe 43 before he forgot entirely), unlike the 20 recommend by Clovis?

[trim grotto]

That number was an estimate, according to the Concierge. I believe they hadn't actually had a subject with that many resets at the time.

So perhaps, perhaps not.

[slim elk]

Also a lot of those apparently occured in a relatively short time with Elsie and banshee fighting in Europa

[haughty stump]

Ngl there is so much lore never played through

I was mentioning in #✨destiny-discussion message

how id like to see a massive prequel from everything before the traveler

[trim grotto]

...on Earth? That's just alternate universe modern day. Or do you mean before the existence of the Traveler? Because there's a very strong chance it's always existed since the Big Bang.

[slim girder]

Funny you mention that. The traveler was discovered in 2014. Bungie iirc meant for the in-game story of destiny to begin in 2014

[trim grotto]

heavy asterisk on that

it's vaguely set alt universe modern day

the pre-release trailer had 2014 but nothing else has; and lore of the time has unexpected tech for 2014

[slim girder]

Oh yeah I'm just going off the math from the DEO documents stating the traveler would arrive in 50-60 years which would place it's arrival in Sol around the 2010s

[jagged badge]

And unexpected levels of global cooperation lmao

[trim grotto]

Ah true there is that

[slim girder]

I think 2014 was the year it entered Sol. But it was mostly likely many years later that the Ares 1 mission was launched. Not to mention how long it probably took to get a rocket to mars considering humanity didn't have NLS travel

Humanity sees presumably alien object, they drop everything to innovate and create a method to meet it at mars

[trim grotto]

So I just read the full comment in discussion

Not quite what I anticipated by "before the traveler"

I think the only thing we can reasonably find "playable" is the Dark Age.

The Collapse was a lost cause wherein not even the Warmind could damage the Pyramid Fleet, we simply lost over a period of months to gravitational anomalies and plagues and more.
The Proto-Hive/Krill... there were petty squabbles between the kingdoms, and harvesting of Stormjoys, but not much else until the siblings made their deal. I guess there was the uprising and slaughtering of the Ammonite, but at that point it's a game about the actual Hive.
The Shadows of Yor were fabricated, entirely tricked, and slowly assassinated by Shin, so there's not much to say there. It was a tight-knit operation. It's a very interesting story, but pretty enclosed.
And... the Golden Age was a time of peace.

[slim girder]

Also worth noting the DEO were the ones who came up with the Ares 1 mission as we learnt finding a piece of it on Kepler.
So if they had seen it they would've had 60 years to come up with a way to get to it rather than waiting.

[haughty stump]

Yea my fault on earth starting from when they split from the veil and then yk fundament
Then proto hive then elikniski then golden age, then collapse and dark ages

[torpid flint]

I mean if we hypothetically did play in the golden age, we would probably only be fighting vex tbh.

[slim girder]

Humanity in the golden age didn't really fight vex. We studied them sure and in the lore the most we were able to gain was things like a vex goblin to examine.
But we had no idea of their biggest threats.

Maya and Chioma discovered their ability to simulate hundreds of copies of them.
And Clovis utilised their radiolaria along with very unethical and messed up methods to create exos. Even capturing a vex goblin to make it build a portal which is the portal we see in the glassway which leads to the vex forge world called Volantis 2077

[jagged badge]

Yeah the only thing you could really do for a conflict would be the Vex-Exo war but

That does not make for a whole game for Destiny players

[torpid flint]

Yeah my comment did leave out some of the context. Was referring to what you referenced below. It would really only be Maya's Vex shenanigans or as Eris mentioned, Exo-Vex war.

Neither of which is really a lot to make a whole game out of. Maybe a season, but I don't think it would be more than that.

On the other hand, the golden age as a City Skylines style game would be interesting imo

[torpid flint]

To be fair, Clovis and moral are two words that really don't belong in the same sentence.
He really only practiced empathy when it benefited him, judging by the logs

[fringe sundial]

he didnt practice empathy at all

[ember storm]

Hey don’t forget he politely offered Ana a breath mint after she watched her dad die on an experiment table

[fringe sundial]

as evil as he is

clovis is so funny i cant help but like him

[ember storm]

He’s basically just like a test on media literacy

I find him entertaining as a character but if someone tells me he’s like a good role model or something

[fringe sundial]

yeah hes the personification of the worst of humanity

arguably the worst person to ever live

in destiny lore

[torpid flint]

A decent amount of people would believe him to be a good role model.
"The ends justifies the means", is what i hear Clovis defenders say

[torpid flint]

I gotta say, his AI's gift ideas were hilarious in his logbook

[jagged badge]

Bro asked BrayGPT

😭

[fringe sundial]

but his ends are just him becoming god so they arent even good

[torpid flint]

"Personal apology, unpracticed"
" Research endowment,
psychological (loss of father, family
trauma)."

[torpid flint]

BrayGPT roasted him instead lmao

[slim elk]

Clovis be an asshole
But hes single handily responsible for a shitload of stuff in the Golden Age

[slim girder]

Progression without morality.

He made advances at the cost of so many people.

[haughty stump]

Apparantely I already beat witch queen

Man d2 campaigns don’t have that hardcore memory as d1

Cause I couldn’t remember anything about it

I’m in the timeline watching the cinematic to understand everything better

One thing im confused about is nowhere in the witch queen campaign lore wise it told me to do the Vow of the Disciple raid

[trim grotto]

Raids are typically caused by, but tangential to, the campaigns. The buildup to the Raid began shortly after launch.

I'm sure you saw the Pyramid in the distance the whole campaign

Some of the post campaign was also related

[dim minnow]

there's also dialogue from the Wellspring activity

which most players would have been running before the raid launch

Lightfall was a lot more blatant with it though by having Nezarec taunting us for a few days

[trim grotto]

Gotta say though, Witch Queen was very memorable for very many players. Seeing Lightbearing Hive was a wild experience.

[haughty stump]

It was, but the ending was different, at least cause we didn’t see Savathuan physically run away

[trim grotto]

Well, no, since she was dead.

[haughty stump]

No see I’m trying to do play destiny 2 through the chronological order, but I don’t know between which missions do we do the raid? Cause I tried starting perseverance mission or quest, and Mara says Rhulk is dead so like when did that happen?

[trim grotto]

Hard to run away when you're deceased

[haughty stump]

Shoulda saw her ghost at least. Idk the same with shadowkeep the ending didn’t feel wrapped up.

I can easily remember the endings for the other expansions

Osiris back

Ana crying happy

Uldren dead

But shadowleep is like talking to Erin I think

And witch queen was confusing

I found myself wanting more from each one

[trim grotto]

Preservation is post raid. Most of the other post campaign missions are pre-raid.

We did.

God damn it discord

[trim grotto]

We did

[haughty stump]

Btw Mael is there a website or something where I can see every single quest, mission, raid all played canonically through chronologically? From d1 to d2?

[haughty stump]

We saw him running away?

[trim grotto]

Yes

[haughty stump]

Bruh we dumb😭

We had no problem killing ghosts until then

[trim grotto]

Uh, not really. We've got a lot of lore resources, but not exactly like that.

[trim grotto]

Immaru isn't the only Ghost we missed. Besides, he transmatted away.

He's got a better sense of self preservation than the others

[haughty stump]

I see. Well how did killing savathan teach us that the traveler chose her?

[haughty stump]

So does vow of the disciple raid happen after we kill her?

[trim grotto]

Yes, all raids happen post campaign.

Typically as a result of said campaign

Sorry I'm on mobile and in my car I'm responding slowly

[haughty stump]

OH REALLY?! oh man I had no idea, okay

[haughty stump]

No it’s no problem in fact you can leave if you want to

But damn

Alright this will make it easier

My plan is to go back to d1

Replay everything

Finish rise of iron

Come to d2

[dim minnow]

you can also reasonably assume that the time between expansion release and raid release is canon in-universe

[trim grotto]

It ties into her memories. I'll see if I can find one of my older writeups to save me the time

[dim minnow]

though the Red War campaign is a bit of an exception since it is stated to take place over at least several weeks

[haughty stump]

I don’t remember but how big of a difference is that?

[haughty stump]

Yea I see

[dim minnow]

at most like a week plus a few days

[haughty stump]

Also does the final shape happen RIGHT after nightfall

Lightfall *

[dim minnow]

it's established that Cayde died a year before Shadowkeep, so for the most part we can assume that the time between expansion releases is also canon in-universe

[trim grotto]

Check the message I'm attaching to

[dim minnow]

though they did state that Renegades was like 2 months or so after Edge of Fate which does go against that

iirc

[haughty stump]

We go through all that within a week? And Zavala doesn’t worship us yet? Bro we killed atheon, the black heart, crota, kell of kells, oryx twice, aksis, etc you get the point, and how come no one acknowledges us for this? Are we not in the canon?

[trim grotto]

No, about a year later. We had Season of... Defiance, then Deep, then Witch, then Wish, then Final Shape.

[haughty stump]

Edge of fate first mission was confusing, why did we meet that guy twice

[dim minnow]

Lodi?

[haughty stump]

Yea

First us and Ikora meet him

He says like see you around

Then we chase after him

And be like Ilona we found him like bro

What?

[dim minnow]

he was introducing us to the Aionians as well

[haughty stump]

Yea but you would assume from the first cutscene that we woulda done some stuff , before we jump back to back meeting him again

[haughty stump]

I mean lore/canon wise

[trim grotto]

Yeah so do I

Like Dova said time is largely 1-1 between in game and in universe
We spent those four seasons basically trying to figure out how to follow the Witness into the portal

[dim minnow]

and Cayde dying on a Tuesday is canon, so you can also assume that events are tied to the exact day of the week

[trim grotto]

Defiance was simultaneous with Lightfall, Deep was learning about the Witness through Ahsa, Witch was dealing with Xivu to make a deal with Immaru and Savathun, and that lead us to Wish, wherein we bargained with Riven's spirit to Wish our way into the Pale Heart.

[dim minnow]

which is why the Red Legion got the drop on us because nothing ever happens on a Wednesday

[trim grotto]

Oh shush you

[haughty stump]

how does this show the traveler stole their second chance? It’s not like it harmed them before it did that, or promised to show up to them

[dim minnow]

the Nine themselves prevented Guardians from foreseeing the Red Legion through bullshit, that bullshit could include us noticing that shit mostly goes down on Tuesdays, therefore the Nine delayed their arrival by a day

[trim grotto]

The Traveler didn't steal it, the Witness stole it. The Traveler was going to uplift them once it was done with the Ammonite, but the Witness and Rhulk caused the Worm bargain, dooming them to a life of slaughter and war.

[haughty stump]

You’re TELLING ME THE WITNESS WAS INSIDE THE TRAVLER FOR A WHOLE YEAR?! How did it not already win?

[dim minnow]

the Traveler was constantly fighting back

[trim grotto]

Their Golden Age was stolen from them, so the Traveler, now that the Worm was exorcised from Savathun, tried to give the Hive a second chance through the Light

[dim minnow]

it wasn't until the start of the TFS campaign that it was finally starting to falter

[trim grotto]

Well, it was wrestling with a god, essentially.

[haughty stump]

Yea but during the collapse it was always implied as soon as the black fleet would get to the traveler then humanity would be cooked

[trim grotto]

Alright I've got to drive home I'll be back in 40 minutes
And I'll be able to actually type fast and provide sources and references

[haughty stump]

Imma shower and go to bed, but I need to ask, those books by bungie

[trim grotto]

Well sure
Rasputin with all of Humanity's guns couldn't even harm a single Pyramid
Doesn't matter how long it'd take the Witness

[haughty stump]

The girmoire books

Are they a good source to use?

Cause rn I’m just going through destinypedia

[dim minnow]

the grimoire anthologies are mostly lore entries you can find ingame

[haughty stump]

You ever thought about making an entire illustration of the entire lore of design?

[trim grotto]

The Grimoire pages are typically just lore pages from the D1 era. The physical books are simply lore collections by subject, with one of two unique entries per.

[dim minnow]

though they do have a few exclusive entries depending on which volume you have

[trim grotto]

That's about 11/12 years of lore, so... No, can't say I have

[haughty stump]

Yea I mean the books you can buy from their irl store

[trim grotto]

Yes, so do I.

[haughty stump]

They are just pages from d1 era?

Hmm

[trim grotto]

The later ones have some D2 era lore as well.

[haughty stump]

Exclusive?

[dim minnow]

Ishtar Collective is basically an archive for all Destiny lore (excluding the lore from physical media like anthology-exclusives or Collector's Edition books)

[haughty stump]

I see, well thx tho

[dim minnow]

as in lore entries that are only in those books and aren't seen ingame

[haughty stump]

Ohh interesting

[haughty stump]

And that’s better than destinypedia?

[dim minnow]

way better

[trim grotto]

I might also recommend r/DestinyLore's Reddit pages, as Dobby put a shit ton of effort into collecting lore by topic if you look at their "wiki" tabs.
It's also direct references, unlike the mess that's Dpedia.

[trim grotto]

Dpedia's infamous.

[haughty stump]

Hmm I see

[dim minnow]

Destinypedia tends to have... opinions

rather than facts

[haughty stump]

Woweww

Damn

Glad y’all told me

[dim minnow]

Ishtar Collective is just the lore itself

[trim grotto]

And Ishtar is just the direct lore itself straight from the API
It's just actual pages, pure and simple

[dim minnow]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/

[haughty stump]

Like twins

lol

[trim grotto]

But yeah if you want to go by topic, try Dobby's stuff
I'll find you actual links later

Anyway ciao have fun me drive now nyoom

[haughty stump]

Ok so this is great stuff
Ishtar
The Reddit

Byeee

[haughty stump]

Thx goat

[haughty stump]

Oh can I ask you some

How accurate is “My Name Is BYF”?

[dim minnow]

in general he's decent

but not infallible

he does have really long videos that go over the timeline and such

[trim grotto]

My voice clone

[torpid flint]

Is there some more lore on, well, what the Nine actually are or is it still a mystery?(by this i mean, not a theory but confirmed lore)

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-dust

[dim minnow]

they are essentially sentient clouds of Dark Matter that are bound to the gravity wells produced by the planets and Sun of Sol

but Dust is a good read in terms of an early look at what the Nine are and what their motivations were

[trim grotto]

Dust good book
Read Dust

Anyway time at the servo is over back to driving

[torpid flint]

I don't think discord and driving is any better than texting and driving so good choice

[torpid flint]

Ya know, the fact that sentient clouds of dark matter isn't the weirdest thing about the lore is uhh interesting

I give the weirdest thing to the Garden tbh.

[dim minnow]

they are also later described as a "keystone species" by Bungie during an interview

nevermind that the Awoken exist because a man was killed by a rabbit embryo

[dim minnow]

what this means is that their existence is important to maintaining the laws of quantum physics and such which is why Maya killing III was such a bad thing

[torpid flint]

I... what? I thought it was because the colony ship getting caught in a (for lack of better phrasing) bubble of darkness and light

[slim elk]

The weird part of the Nine is Apparently they only manifested in Sol

[dim minnow]

better phrasing would be singualrity

[slim elk]

They don't require sapient life either given they were around far before anything could develop in Sol

[dim minnow]

and yes that is true, but Mara was an important part as to why that led to the Awoken being created

[torpid flint]

According to who? The Nine? Is that really a reliable source?

[dim minnow]

because she was the first and made the others in her image

[slim elk]

Notice we have no mentions of anything like them anywhere else in the entire verse of Destiny

[dim minnow]

as far as we know, it's just them, even they aren't sure if there are any others like them

[dim minnow]

and the reason why she was on the Yang Liwei in the first place was because she witnessed a man get domed in the vacuum of space by a rabbit embryo

[dim minnow]

of course, it isn't hard confirmed that the Nine are the only ones of their kind, but we haven't seen any indication of there being more of them

[slim elk]

Granted Bungies done some clear retcons with the Nine
Originally the whole Red Legion blinding was on the part of Mercury who got punished for it.

Now that turned out to be a "lie"

[torpid flint]

I mean if they are just dark matter clouds, they should be well, everywhere

[dim minnow]

they're bound to the planets and Sun

the gravity wells is part of what allows them to think

the life that exists on these planets is what gives them life though

they NEED us

they do not really want that

[slim elk]

We also got Lodis whole background conflicting with golden age lore given the Travelers arrival came as a suprise....

When now Apparently the USA knew about it in the Cold War and never told anyone

[torpid flint]

I get that.

But who's to say that the conditions weren't enough for a Nine-like entity to exist with say, the Fallen?

[dim minnow]

I mean, given what we know about Ares One, we were pretty prepared for it

[slim elk]

Which runs into the simple fridge logic of them existing before life formed

So that was another "lie" Apparently

[dim minnow]

well they don't exist on Riis anymore, not after the Whirlwind

[slim elk]

Since you know.. III is Apparently the reason why Earth was even habitable in the first place

[dim minnow]

not exactly, they could think, but they weren't "conscious"

[torpid flint]

So, do they just need sentient life and gravity wells? Or do they need the Light as well?

[dim minnow]

we don't know if there's a special sauce to it yet

that mystery hasn't been revealed to us yet

[slim elk]

III be responsible for life even being possible on Earth

As I said. It's clear someone over in Bungie is taking an ax to old established lore with retcons

(Or at least making it overly complicated)

[torpid flint]

Is Riis even around any more or is it similar to what happened to Venus in BL?

[torpid flint]

That's just Bungie tbh. I mean, look at Halo Lore

[slim elk]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iLuAXYHwhoU&pp=ygUXRHJzdGlueSB3aGlybHdpbmQgZGlyZ2U%3D

[torpid flint]

We have super soliders in one corner and then eldritch horror in another.

[dim minnow]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-nine#book-dust

this basically explains it, the Nine did exist before life began on Sol

however, they weren't "awake" until then

it does also state that their reach is pretty far

they can reach all around the galaxy seemingly, but their heart lies in Sol

[torpid flint]

Ah well... yeah that... puts it in stone pretty well

[slim elk]

We last saw Eramis running off towards whatever is left of Riis

Granted she'll just be trouble down the road

[torpid flint]

Hopefully they make that a D3 thing..
If they make a D3 of course

[slim elk]

The logic behind letting her go makes no sense of course

Then again. We didn't even put an arc band on Immaru

[trim grotto]

I was parked to be fair haha

[torpid flint]

Still? Really?

[slim elk]

Yep
Just threats of being put "in the box"

Had enough freedom to try and sabotage a Festival of the Lost

And casually went back to Savathun offscreen

[torpid flint]

Also, I thought 5 or 4 of the Nine are content with life and the other 5 or 4 are not content with life

[trim grotto]

Our absurdly lax treatment of Immaru will never fail to confound me.

[torpid flint]

We (basically) killed off all the scorn(in all honestly, if it wasn't for Calus or the Dreaming City, they probably wouldn't be a thing) for one dead hunter vanguard.

But Immaru helps kidnap the traveler, and we just... let him wander around?

[trim grotto]

Our work was not quite so thorough on the Scorned Barons. Fikrul resurrected regularly and the Scorn were spreading through their Dark Ether rituals.

But yes, it's a bit silly.

[slim elk]

Remember we even have specialized Ghost restraints easily accessible and utilized by the Praxics for the express purpose of non lethal restraints

[trim grotto]

And anti-transmat tech exists

[slim elk]

Bungie writers can be pretty stupid at times

[torpid flint]

And frankly... he should've just been killed during WQ. We had more than enough time

[dim minnow]

that one stupid lore book I hate pretty much said that all they did to contain Immaru was leave an open cage with a note telling him to go inside

[slim elk]

Not the first time we had a moment like that
See the instance where we were literally in the room with Eramis who was attacking Mithrax

... we just watched

[trim grotto]

Gonna be honest Dova it's the one bit of lore I just flat out refuse to believe is canon

That book
Did damage

[dim minnow]

I would too, but my lore-absolutism mindset prevent me from doing so

which is why I recognize the 30th anniversary stuff as fully canon

[torpid flint]

I mean, Bungje is known for just saying "RETCON ALL OF IT"

Halo Reach(Game) vs Halo Reach(Book)

Granted that's not as... horrible as this but they have a pattern

[torpid flint]

That was peak cannon. Xur canonically is a game announcer... an unwilling game announcer, but one nonetheless

[trim grotto]

Hardly comparable. There are few staff left over from that period of time, particularly writers.

[slim elk]

This ain't even a retcon
It's "as the plot demands" lol

[torpid flint]

Wait what?

[slim elk]

Despite every reason to restrain Immaru as our express deal with Savathun was him as collateral-hostage

[dim minnow]

not really Retcon, more like they didn't really have a concrete plan

[torpid flint]

You're kidding me right?

Please send me the Ishtar link

[trim grotto]

It was a Halloween event "funny" lore book.

It's... Unpopular.

[dim minnow]

The room Eris had stuck Immaru in was minuscule. There were no windows to watch the hours and days pass by. No electronics to hack. Just containers of decommissioned armor stacked against the far wall, and one small, empty crate in the middle of the room, adorned with a handwritten sign that simply said "YOU" and an arrow pointing menacingly downward. It was placed there as a warning, after he was caught lurking around the more sensitive areas of the Tower. Ikora had confiscated his Shaded Shell disguise and placed a Hidden agent somewhere outside to report on his every move. She did, however, leave some blank crossword pages for him.

Tales of the Forgotten Volume 1 was amazing
Volume 2 was not quite as good, but still decent enough
Volume 3 was pure unfettered ass
Volume 4 was peak though

[torpid flint]

...

Goddam it really is that stupid

[torpid flint]

I wonder why

[dim minnow]

the only issue I had with Volume 4 was that it didnn't quite lean into the scary story stuff the first two volumes had

but it did fit well with the main theme of the event really well

[torpid flint]

Im sorry, Eris would never do that. I cannot ever see her character not just traping him in some arcane artifact, not putting a sticky note on a cage

[slim elk]

You understand the annoyance many have

[torpid flint]

Roller coaster of lore quality

[slim elk]

Doubled when Immaru casually goes back to Savathun offscreen

[torpid flint]

Dova, sometimes you gotta take the warhammer approach

Its only cannon if you want it to be

[dim minnow]

Tales Volume 3 and Martian Missives are the only two lore books in the game so far I would call objectively bad

[slim elk]

Seriously
Just contract Spider to stick the same bomb in Immaru the same way he did with Glint

[dim minnow]

but all MM really did was be a complete waste of time and lore resources better spent on other topics

Tales V3 just flat out does not belong in the game's lore

[slim elk]

Boom. Explosive leash and still let Immaru wander around

[torpid flint]

Thanks for giving yet another solution to this problem

[frigid sparrow]

martian missives giving toland relevancy for once and it turns out it's savathun fucking around

[dim minnow]

the problem is Destiny is a franchise that hasn't been going on for more than 1 decade and its writers, for all their faults, are not nearly as clinically insane at times

[dim minnow]

"Hey did you know Osiris is a traitor?"
"Holy shit really?"
"No, go fuck yourself, dumbass..."

[frigid sparrow]

okay but osiris being a traitor would've been lame

toland is simply goated

I need that succulent voice ringing in my ear again

[dim minnow]

yes it would, but it wasn't just the fact it was utter bullshit

[frigid sparrow]

Will you be prepared? Or will you be... Boring?"

[dim minnow]

"Oh also, no books of rememoration for you (or anything of actual substance regarding this campaign)"

[torpid flint]

Yeah, like the Winnowner and Gardener is a, while confusing, really good piece of lore

But that lore entry purely, abysmal dogshit( not the gardener, the Immaru Cage Entry)

[dim minnow]

like, there was NO point to any of Martian Missives

it's just r/lies

and we could have had something containing actual relevant information

like maybe whatever the hell Savathun was doing between Lost and WQ

[frigid sparrow]

sometimes I forget that toland is voiced by fergus from wolfenstein

[dim minnow]

but no, that stuff was all crammed into the exotic glaive lore tabs

honestly, this alone should make MM the worst book in my eyes, but Tales V3 was just so bad it takes the spot

[torpid flint]

Thanks for that reminder. I really hate when exotics become the only place to get main progression lore.

Like Lament was cool because it unraveled a seperate mystery but the glavies were a uhh... interesting choice

[slim elk]

All that wrathborn lore stuffed into armor when could easily fill a book..

[torpid flint]

Im gonna take your word for it because that Immaru reference gave me a lobotomy.

[slim elk]

That's about what the Traveler has right now lol

[torpid flint]

Just a small one of course

[torpid flint]

Either that or the lore entry connects to a grimore card from D1 with one extra paragraph

[slim elk]

It's just a comedy when we have the solution to the whole "Earth's whole ecosystem is being turned into realitys plaything" in literal orbit

[frigid sparrow]

it's not that unreasonable, lore about savathun's memories from weapons born of memories

[torpid flint]

I much prefer the entries and books. But to each their own

[haughty stump]

Lowkey shouldn’t have added fate saga to d2 but rather d3

[torpid flint]

To be fair, wouldn't be the first time in the lore

[haughty stump]

Who?

[torpid flint]

Savathun's Ghost

[haughty stump]

How were we lax? We almost killed him muiltple times

[torpid flint]

.

[haughty stump]

So he was imprisoned ?

[torpid flint]

WQ fight is also a good example

[haughty stump]

I was just talking about that, that ghost transmated before we killed him

[torpid flint]

That's a... generous term for it.
He looked at a box with a sticky note that said YOU with an arrow on it

[frigid sparrow]

because it was "almost"

[torpid flint]

Loony Toones levels of "almost"

[slim elk]

Honestly my initial read on the situation was the Traveler pulling Immarus ass out of the fire

[torpid flint]

Maybe not that bad, but certainly comical

[slim elk]

Since our Ghost was suprised he escaped

[torpid flint]

So, the traveler just said fuck those other ghosts we smashed in particular?

[slim elk]

Definitely kept the thematic of "Traveler is not loyal to humanity"

[haughty stump]

What else can you do with a ghost? Maybe make him watch red pill YouTubers

[haughty stump]

Dudes cunning

[slim elk]

It's letting Savathun kill a shitload of human guardians and displays blatant favoritism before

[trim grotto]

This happened quite some time later. Savathun essentially... Gave him to us, as a token of trust while we were figuring out how to enter the Portal.

[frigid sparrow]

he calls us neon nerds

he's not cunning he has the intellect of a 6th grade bully

[trim grotto]

The Traveler had nothing to do with it.

Immaru simply fled.

[torpid flint]

Was referring to Freak's theory but most likely this

[slim elk]

It just felt like a solid conclusion to Witch Queens whole message

[haughty stump]

Fair

[torpid flint]

I think Nimbus is more cunning

[slim elk]

Since we assumed Savathun stole the light... nope. Traveler gave it

[haughty stump]

After we kill savathan she sides with us?

[frigid sparrow]

they were able to manage getting us an orbital laser inside the traveler like yeah

[trim grotto]

Enemy of our enemy. We both opposed the Witness, and the Witness was about to end the universe.

[torpid flint]

I mean that was kinda revealed anyway in the Hymn cutscene(goated track btw) so doesn't really make sense there

[slim elk]

On paper there really shouldn't be any hostilities between Lucent Hive and us now

[haughty stump]

Wasn’t Eris hive

What happened

With that

[haughty stump]

So lucent hive don’t have sword logic?

[frigid sparrow]

except

yknow

destroying the echo of navigation

[trim grotto]

By defying her 'nature' in severing Xivu's connection to her Throne World, instead of satiating her bloodlust and taking revenge, she abandoned her power and form.

[frigid sparrow]

and grabbing malok's head

[torpid flint]

What that do?

[haughty stump]

Was it end? What was he trying to do merging them together?

[frigid sparrow]

memory of oryx given physical form

[trim grotto]

Sword Logic is a belief, not a force. That said, their culture is... Slow to change.

[haughty stump]

Xivu lost her throne world?!

[torpid flint]

Oh. Yeah that may cause issues

[slim elk]

We still had to kill Lucent Hive while working with Immaru to handle Xivu

[frigid sparrow]

that savathun wanted because she wanted to give him the perspective outside of the sword logic and the false promises of the deep

that we ended up destroying

thus pissing her off at the end of episode heresy

[haughty stump]

I thought it was both? Like that’s why sword logic leads to throne worlds and shit

[trim grotto]

The Witness was trying to enact The Final Shape. An end state of the universe, a finality. A form the universe would forever be locked in. The end of the game, as it were.

[slim elk]

Even worse when Oryx himself was fully willing to let us use him in the Echo

[trim grotto]

That's the power of the Worm Parasites, a tangential framework to the belief of Sword Logic.

[trim grotto]

Indeed. She is vulnerable now.

[slim elk]

We really just destroyed a gamechanger just.... because?

[haughty stump]

I thought that was Xivu’s thing too? Like it was a chaos, and she while savathun didn’t want Xivu having it, she also didn’t want it destroyed

[haughty stump]

How?! We have never seen her 😭 is she even in our sol system

[torpid flint]

A good way to think of it, the final shape is ultimately entropy to us. Im probably oversimplifying it or misinterpreting it admittedly

[haughty stump]

Oh I see, but they don’t have worms

[haughty stump]

Funny cause the witness accused us of the same

[trim grotto]

The Lightbearers do not, but the others of the Lucent Brood still do. The Light is satiating them. Nevertheless, it's a billions-year-old culture.

[frigid sparrow]

both of them didn't want it destroyed because they saw it as their brother(?) and wanted its power
savathun didn't want it destroyed because she believes she could help disprove the intrinsic ties to sword logic and show the lie of the dark that the witness gave
xivu didn't want it destroyed because she believed it could embolden her armies and bring oryx back to power as the taken king

[trim grotto]

Alright I'm on my PC let's try this now

[trim grotto]

With our aid, and the slaying of Savathun... again... Eris basically became more powerful than the Hive Gods. She was an ontological force, an immense display of power, and she abandoned it all to cut that tether in a ritual.

We didn't have to actually see Xivu for this to happen.

[torpid flint]

So basically, we made both of them hate us even more. Nice

[frigid sparrow]

the echo of navigation rejected both of them, however. both because it was a devout follower of the sword logic. for savathun, he refused to see the lie within sword logic that she wanted to disprove, claiming her a heretic. for xivu, he believed that if he had died, then he should stay dead, as sword logic dictates, and that she was a heretic.

[haughty stump]

Yea but I wish we did

Kinda annoying

Cause Xivu was over our head for liken a year

[torpid flint]

Wait, what were you doing before?

Discord and Driving gotta be its own ticket

[haughty stump]

We did that not her though, and hold up if she became that powerful couldn’t she had waited till after idk the witness to do it? That kinda ally would be nice

[haughty stump]

Tesla prob

[trim grotto]

Typing on my phone. No, I wasn't driving at the time.

[haughty stump]

Interesting, and they didn’t realize we were trying to destroy it?

[frigid sparrow]

they did and tried to fight us themselves (or through their emissaries) prior to its destruction

[trim grotto]

She was at risk of losing herself to the power; becoming monstrous. And it was Eris - she had made the pact with Ahsa, and we were feeding her the death.

Except slaying Sav. This time was actually Eris. She cut Sav's throat.

[haughty stump]

I’m surprised savathun didn’t try to convince to negotiate with us

[frigid sparrow]

she told us to fuck off earlier

then we stole her son's head

[haughty stump]

Wait what

[trim grotto]

She straight up demanded we do not get involved. It's one of the few times her emotions got the better of her critical thinking.

[haughty stump]

I see

[frigid sparrow]

early on in the episode, she says that we need to go away since these are family matters

[haughty stump]

Yea dumbass witch we putting yo brother on a t shirt for the 3rd time ✌️

[slim girder]

She's tried negotiating for years.
Our most recent interaction involved her "Having enough" and after destroying the memory of her brother she is now fully out to destroy us

[haughty stump]

I seee

[haughty stump]

So she sided with Xivu I presume

Oh hell naw

[slim girder]

Not exactly just now she is actually fully out for us now

[haughty stump]

What

[slim girder]

She has threatened to destroy us personally instead of just using us like she normally would.

[haughty stump]

Who was Ahsa? And she cut sav’s throat?!

[trim grotto]

Savvy was basically toying with us in the past. Now we pissed her off.

[slim girder]

Eris did.
Ahsa is a "proto worm" from the season of the deep.

[trim grotto]

Eris did, yes. With a sword.

Ahsa is a Proto-Worm. Very likely the only one. What the Worm Gods were before... becoming what we know them as.

[haughty stump]

So maybe that’s why she wasn’t fully gone

[haughty stump]

Yes I get that, so now I predict she’s going to work with her sister now, because they both hate us

[slim girder]

Not really no. Xivus ideals are very different to Savathuns.

They've argued time and time again

[haughty stump]

That big ass whale is a worm?!!

[frigid sparrow]

savathun is also kinda the reason why xivu was severed from her throne world

[slim girder]

^^^^

[trim grotto]

Proto-Worm.

[slim girder]

Eris killed savathun, took her power, used it to then sever Xivu and savathun then resurrected and escaped

[haughty stump]

My fault

[trim grotto]

As opposed to a Worm God

[frigid sparrow]

with this also being savathun's laid-out plan

[haughty stump]

And we didn’t know that she was a ghost?

[slim girder]

She's had a ghost since witch queen. Immaru was in our custody for a long time

[haughty stump]

For a “god” they lowkey bums.

[frigid sparrow]

gods are relative

[trim grotto]

Savathun's life was part of our deal. In return for allowing her resurrection, she showed us the secret to enter the Portal. That led us to Season of the Wish.

[haughty stump]

Wait this was after which queen?

[slim girder]

Yes. Season of the witch

[trim grotto]

This was after Lightfall.

[frigid sparrow]

both of these are gods

[haughty stump]

THATS MY GOAT RIGHT THERE

I ❤️ AKSIS

Yea I see wym , both are gods but in a fight Aksis would solo Xivu like it’s nothing

[slim girder]

Eris is canonically now the new hive god of vengeance thanks to that power she gained from savathun even though she rejected it

[trim grotto]

Xivu was a big fan of hers for a short while.

[slim girder]

She didn't know at first though and after being killed she was surprised to see she had her own throne world

[haughty stump]

Ohh so I see, and no one was tracking savathun post witch queen until she pulled back up with a deal?

[trim grotto]

Immaru made the deal. We had kept Savathun's corpse the entire time.

[frigid sparrow]

no we had her body lmao

locked her up so immaru wouldn't rez

[haughty stump]

Oh after which queen we captured immaru? Bro i wish i could replay with queen and find this out

[trim grotto]

No, Immaru was leading the Lucent Brood in Sav's absence. It's why he's speaking so much in the Patrols on the Throne World.

Go do some, you'll hear him.

[haughty stump]

That makes sense now that I hear about it

[slim girder]

@haughty stump We kill savathun, her ghost escapes, we secure her remains until season of the witch where through a deal with immaru allow her to be brought back.

[trim grotto]

Anyway Sav being returned to life in Season of the Witch led to this amazing bit of lore
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/proportionality

[slim girder]

Oh yeah Saint 14 got some revenge

Some very satisfying revenge after what Savathun had done to Osiris for so long

[haughty stump]

Yes that was confusing me okay. So then eris kills her, takes out throne world, and then now here we are, did savathun know she was agreeing to get rid of the throne world for Xivu?

Also how was eris able to do that?

What kind of freaking ritual

Let’s you rip someone’s throne world when they are a million miles away?

[slim girder]

Lemme find it

[trim grotto]

Well, she's the greatest expert on Hive Magics apart from the actual Hive Gods themselves, at this point.

[haughty stump]

Like bro we the guardian have had to pull up to the worlds themselves to destroy the world

[trim grotto]

And she was more powerful than the Gods when she conducted the ritual

Strictly speaking, she didn't destroy the Throne World. Just... snipped the thread.

[slim girder]

@haughty stump here. This is all the important cutscenes from that season which will show you how it all went down. https://youtu.be/DPrwuAJOx6s?si=yBuVo6dACB0XXGGg

[haughty stump]

Yes I get that, and maybe through combat I could see this, but it’s like.. yk what you’re right I’m not gonna question it

[haughty stump]

Damn so the seasons were actually worth something important to the story, ngl they shoulda just made seasons free.

[slim girder]

That's literally what this archive is for lol

[trim grotto]

Always have been. Until this year.

[slim girder]

^^^^

[haughty stump]

Yea it’s funny I thought it was just like some rise of iron shit, new problem happens we save the world, Zavala doesn’t acknowledge us for shit and then it’s rinse and repeat until dlc

[haughty stump]

Btw what does ontomologic mean?

[trim grotto]

RoI is an exception. And... Zavala constantly acknowledges us.

[haughty stump]

Enemy of my enemy no?

They hate us more than each other

[slim girder]

Ontological means something that attacks your soul.
Vex gorgons wiping you from time itself to the point you never even existed and no one remembers you is an ontological weapon

[trim grotto]

It's... to do with the nature of existence. Point is, the Worms feed on death itself, the very concept of it as it happens.

[haughty stump]

You would think every time we feel like something is up he would stand up straight and listen to the guy who destroyed black heart, Atheon, crota, oryx, aksis, witness, calus, etc etc

[haughty stump]

That is so weird, but ig it ties into how the darkness operates?

Based on emotions?

[trim grotto]

We don't exactly have much of a personality, but they do, yes.

[slim girder]

I wouldn't put so much faith in the player guardian.
We have the initiative of a brick

[trim grotto]

Paracausality is a road to many strange concepts.

[haughty stump]

But rn in renegades Zavala, he said he not worrying about the cabal, or that drifters vision

[haughty stump]

The what now?

[slim girder]

In renegades he is doing it not because he doesn't believe it but because it would cause the city to panic

[trim grotto]

Paracausal forces. Y'know, Light, Dark. Wish Magic. That kind of thing.

Literally, parallel causality.

[haughty stump]

Oh, dude how have the vex not won? They have time on their side

[trim grotto]

Also paracausality. They literally cannot comprehend it.

[slim girder]

That kind of thing is only possible in the vault of glass

^^^^

Vex can't simulate us or light/dark

[trim grotto]

They cannot predict us, cannot effectively defend against us, cannot fully account for us.

[haughty stump]

Who says they have to know? I mean just invest some resources or stuff to help us, some ships, some guardians,

[haughty stump]

I’m confused,

1. So vex don’t control time but simulations?
2. How were we able to kill atheon?
3. Ik mael mentioned speaker just told us to go down in the VOG but there had to be something more than that right? Like how did he know someone was making experiments

[haughty stump]

Who says they have to know? If they lost a battle, go back In time then reprepare, unless you mean to tell me that there’s no guarantee that the same battle would occur.

[haughty stump]

Hmm

So to go through time, they have 100% understand what they are teleporting to? Like from the very biome to the metaphysical forces

[dim minnow]

from the looks of it, they can't really travel through our own timeline

at least not backwards

[trim grotto]

Vex time travel's a bit of a weird one. They can't exactly go back and kill someone as a baby, as the trope goes. There's timeline hopping, but largely they work with simulations, foreseeing the future through incredibly complex predictions.

[haughty stump]

I see

Well that’s good

[trim grotto]

As for the Vault of Glass, it's long been a known legend amongst Guardians.
"At last, the Heart of the Garden has been destroyed, its stranglehold on the Traveler released. Our Light brightens. But the power of the Vex is not broken. Look into the Vault, Guardian, for it is said to hold powers the Progeny were meant to bring forth." - The Speaker
Basically, The Speaker got pretty freaked out by the Sol Divisive and the Black Heart, and wanted us to go check out whatever the hell else was going on with the Vex.

[dim minnow]

and we find out the Vex were trying to do what the Witness was trying to do with the Veil and Traveler

essentially gain total control over reality

[trim grotto]

Their own form of the Final Shape. Convergence.

[haughty stump]

A known legend?! Vanguard knew about that shit for this whole time?! Omg Zavala you are a FRAUD!

[trim grotto]

Well, we didn't know the working parts. Just that it existed, and Bad Shit™ went down there. Guardians straight up erased from existence itself.

[dim minnow]

we knew there was something up with the Vault, Guardians have tried raiding it in the past

but with the BGH destroyed, we figured it was the best time to turn our attention towards the Vault

[haughty stump]

That’s horrid

[haughty stump]

And so because we were able to destroy the heart. The speaker chose us!

And then we discovered ATHEON!

[trim grotto]

He fought the Vex alone. This destroyed him. In the time before he vanished he said things that I think should be remembered. These are some of them:

"In the Vault time frays and a needle moves through it. The needle is the will of Atheon. I do not know the name of the shape that comes after the needle.

No one can open the Vault alone. I opened the Vault. There was no one with me but I was not alone.

You will meet the Templar in a place that is a time before or after stars. The stars will move around you and mark you and sing to you. They will decide if you are real.

I drank of them. It tasted like the sea."

That is all I can remember.

Pahanin```

[haughty stump]

And what was he doing

[haughty stump]

So he got past templer?

[dim minnow]

Pahanin managed to escape

[trim grotto]

In their ideal world, the Vex would extend the ultimate power they wielded within the Vault; without the Vault.

[dim minnow]

as far as we know, no one got past Templar

[haughty stump]

Ohh wow

[haughty stump]

Okay, alright but what are the specifics of that ? If I’m being annoying you can just tell me to fuck off and I’ll read up on it, but I wanna know the type of experiments Atheon was doing

[dim minnow]

Vex lore tends to be vague sadly

[haughty stump]

Luckily that means more content for D3

I’m starting to feel like we’re nearing the end of the destiny franchise in terms of story

[trim grotto]

Well, think of it this way. A Guardian Raid team consists of six members. We only know of three from the first VoG team, and one of those three was forgotten by Pahanin, the only one who even escaped.

Everyone else never existed, and nobody even knows they ever did.

[slim girder]

The templar, gorgons and Aetheon are still some of the most powerful vex we've faced even today.
Close to them would be beings such as Panoptes, Quiria or Koregos

[trim grotto]

That is the power of the Oracles and the Gorgons

[haughty stump]

Yooo that’s trippy

How?!

[haughty stump]

OH

That’s how

WTF ARE THOSE THINGS I thought the gorgons were just some security measures

[trim grotto]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/uoz2ox/amorphous_blobs_and_ontological_robots_a_theory/
I'll also take this moment to shill my own little VoG theory post, because hee hee haa haa, I can do that.

[haughty stump]

Holy

[trim grotto]

anywho i'm gonna go cook some tortellini

yum yum

[haughty stump]

Hmmm interesting but if that’s the case, and the witness gave the black heart to them why didn’t he use this awesome power against us?

[dim minnow]

the Vex did that stuff with the BGH on their own

[trim grotto]

TL;DR, the Black Heart was an attempt to create a new Veil.

[dim minnow]

plus, the Witness considered the BGH a failure

[slim girder]

That's what I meant by ontological weapons attacking the soul.
If you are killed by a gorgon or anything of that nature you aren't just killed.
You were never born
You never existed
No memory of you remains
Nothing is left

[dim minnow]

Ontological weapons are the most sure-fire way to kill a Guardian

[trim grotto]

second only to Big Rock straight to the Ghost

whap

[slim girder]

Ontological doesn't require you to have the ghost out either iirc.

Like if that hits you not even your ghost survives as they are part of you.

[dim minnow]

O-weapons just cut straight to your death

no draining your Light or killing your GHost needed

[slim girder]

You are retconned out of existence

[fringe sundial]

which is why techeuns are unironically more powerful than most raid bosses

and one of them is a strike boss

[dim minnow]

we only really see Taken ones do that

also only Kalli and Shuro Chi

Sedia and the one from Lost never did that

[slim girder]

Sedia seemed more "out of control" if that makes sense

Like she was dangerous but didn't have those types of powers

[torpid flint]

Reminds me of Retcon Man from Rick and Morty

[haughty stump]

That’s insane why do they have that power?

[ember storm]

well that's the point of VoG

they were workshopping it

i think it's meant to be powered by the black heart but idk how much of that holds up now

[torpid flint]

If only all guardians were the same power level as The Young Wolf or Ikora

[trim grotto]

Ikora actually has an entire essay on the subject, which in short explains that anybody can be.

I'll fetch it for you some time when I'm not busy at work

Unless Dova or Retro or someone beats me to it

[torpid flint]

So realistically, the main bottleneck is getting, well

Guardians to not die before the long study time and effort needed to become more powerful

[trim grotto]

That's the short of it, yeah

Remind me in an hour and a half and I'll grab you the uhhh
Actual source

[torpid flint]

If you have time of course

[trim grotto]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UDF2gZFAVhn6vXjVdgWXO5P1Fdb6VFSMRTyx88Im0es/edit?usp=drivesdk

Here's the first half of the Witch Queen Collector's Edition lore, the Hidden Dossier Pt. 1. Ikora's bit is the last section right down the bottom.

And yes, it does have to be a Google Doc. Ishtar doesn't do physical editions.

[haughty stump]

who was this guy

[frigid sparrow]

Ecthar, sword of oryx

[haughty stump]

ohhh i see

bro looked cooler in the cutscene

[frigid sparrow]

he had a unique sword and shield and was simply used in game for an exotic quest

[haughty stump]

wow lmao

talk about a fraud

[frigid sparrow]

however he got rezzed into one of the lucent brood and became the shield of savathun