📚lore-discussion

[hard sigil]

lukaku

[blazing wasp]

in essence, sword logic is an ideology. You must prove yourself to the universe that you deserve to exist
you do this by besting something else, proving youre better than it, if youre not better than them you dont deserve to exist, so you die

best way to demonstrate this? kill things

[hard sigil]

her names Luzaku

[blazing wasp]

for the hive, the worms feed on the logic, and actually empowers them

the hive who has the worm grows stronger, and the worm also gets hungrier, needing more and more tithes

if they dont tithe, the worm eats the host to live

[icy grove]

Okay hang in

It's too early for me to read this fast

[blazing wasp]

take your time

[icy grove]

Define tithe

[hard sigil]

I'm gonna say it before Mael comes back, the sword logic is just the religious structuring that the hive built around the worms, which actually function off of Anthem Anathema, the same paracausal concept that Ahamkara use

[hard sigil]

tithe is a synonym for "offer" or "tribute"

[slim girder]

Tithing is like giving a donation of sorts.
Like tithing blood to a hive god

[hard sigil]

a tax

it's a tax on the kill credit

[icy grove]

Why the fuck di they have worms in their body 😭

[slim girder]

For power

They weren't always called the hive

Before they were called the krill

[blazing wasp]

i recommend giving "the books of sorrow" a read once

it explains a lot.

[hard sigil]

the power of the sword logic comes from the Worm Gods, the worms that each hive house are their children, and it prolongs the life of the hive as long as they feed it the Anthem Anatheme that sword logic creates

[icy grove]

Wait

So the hive need to tithe

[slim girder]

Yes. Otherwise they will die

[icy grove]

But savathuns don't?

[slim girder]

Savathun has the light

[hard sigil]

Krill, the species the hive evolved from, had a life span of about a decade

[icy grove]

Ohh

And ghosts right?

[hard sigil]

the lightbearing hive don't

[slim girder]

Savathun had her worm removed through a ritual done by mara sov

[blazing wasp]

ye, savathun has the light via a ghost

[icy grove]

Dude witch queen might be my fav dlc

[hard sigil]

but the regular hive in the Lucent Brood have worms

[icy grove]

I wanna be a lucent hive

[hard sigil]

I find it funny that there's really no reason they have classes outside of making fun of us

[icy grove]

Well

True

Maybe they fell into social norms just like us?

[hard sigil]

sure but there's no reason for it to be the exact same ones we did

they copied our homework

[icy grove]

Well I imagine it's easier

[hard sigil]

yeah

[icy grove]

Like imagine you get super powers and instead of reinventing the wheel you just roll with it

Bars

[slim girder]

Savathun learned about the light through us via impersonating Osiris a warlock. So seeing the classes would have definitely been part of her research while spying on us

[hard sigil]

I really like the Anthem Anathema and I appreciate it being convergent evolution among both worms and Ahamkara

[hard sigil]

and I'm sure the ghosts who defected would've had insight

[slim elk]

Worth noting that per lore the Guardian archetypes came later on to help "define" abilities

[blazing wasp]

the hive also have a rather lengthy history with guardians

[hard sigil]

Great Disaster.png

[slim elk]

Shaxx warned everyone we should study our enemies

Nobody listens

[vague jacinth]

Punchy punch!

[slim elk]

Remember
Shaxx is a Titan

[vague jacinth]

I am too.

[slim girder]

Shaxx has taken the head off an iron lord

Like full decapitation with a punch

[vague jacinth]

I punch higher beings.

[hard sigil]

Wei Ning has the cooler punch feat

punched a mountain so hard it shook on a molecular level

"So I ask Wei Ning: What about the Darkness itself? What then? And she says: I'll punch it too."
she's awesome

she's also had such feats as beating an Ahamkara to near death with her bare hands and subsequently wishing for it to not die so she could keep hitting it (granted this was a plan to draw out other Ahamkara in the area)

[hazy veldt]

strand is not about string theory if i remember correctly

[vague jacinth]

Idk, I just shared the pic.

[river surge]

Any clues on The Nine extinction?

IX gets killed and The Sun explodes?

Another universal type extinction

We leave the Solar System

we kill The Nine

The Witness comes back

VI destroys our system

TLoEN takes us

The Traveler gets blown

WE DIE??

[slim girder]

My guess is due to the nines effect on the celestial bodies of the system and the outer orbits adamant drive to create a singularity I think this extinction event might involve a black hole actually being allowed to grow before we can deal with it.

We still also haven't met our next witness level threat and if the nine view a whole timeline then maybe III or the others have seen a being appearing at some point.

The winnower, TLOEN, Another one of Bael and the dredgens schemes or something else entirely is possible.

[river surge]

The biggest threat on the system currently

Is

Tloen

Bael and his Dredgens are not a single problem to us

Literally

Its either VI or Tloen

Bael will get destroyed before he even tries to do anything stupid again

If The Winnower steps in

Bungie

Take my money

Idc

I will be there

[slim girder]

That's the issue though. He might not be a danger as a person himself but it's what he can do that poses danger. He did recently just massacre dozens of guardians through use of a weapon he was given.
If VI wants to they'd happily sacrifice Bael to cause that extinction event.

Make Bael a martyr

[ember storm]

I could stop it

[slim girder]

I already religiously use thorn so I could always sever the other hand now that I know thorn can do that to someone

[vague jacinth]

Thorn was that cool revolver, right?

[hard sigil]

hand cannon but yes

[vague jacinth]

Isn‘t that the same thing?

[slim girder]

Yes.
Thorn is also a huge deal to dredgens generally as well given the very first dredgen, Dredgen Yor used one that could kill guardians permanently

[vague jacinth]

Crazy.

Without killing their ghosts?

[slim girder]

A thorn is part of a persons change into a dredgen normally.
Though the new breed of dredgens seemed to have abandoned this part of the process

[slim girder]

The original thorn "eats" light so no they could not be ressed.
Dredgen Yor was also known as The Devourer because of it

[hard sigil]

ehh it's complex they technically use different mechanisms but are essentially the same thing

[vague jacinth]

Ahh.

Is Dredgen a title?

[hard sigil]

in game it's the gambit title

[vague jacinth]

Like Kahn?

[slim girder]

@vague jacinth Thorn was a weapon that before was a hand cannon called Rose.
TLDR The original owner of Rose grafted hive bones to it as a trophy and those bones through a hive wizard began to whisper to him, changing him and his weapon. Eventually the guardian a titan named Rezyl Azzir became Dredgen Yor and his Rose changed to Thorn
Thorn became known as weapon of sorrow from that point.

[hard sigil]

but it's also just the title given to those who followed in Yor's footsteps

[slim girder]

Dredgen translates to "Abyss"
And the title comes by undertaking what's called the unmaking where you "Unmake" youself and give yourself a new name

Dredgen is the title that goes along with that new name

[vague jacinth]

Crazy, I have both.

[slim girder]

We had the original thorn gifted to us at one point.
We cleansed it in light and this is how we got the hand cannon Lumina

[vague jacinth]

Crazy, I have that too!

I‘m so tuff.

[vague jacinth]

Thanks for killing my boredom.

[slim girder]

Np

I am a huge thorn nerd

[river surge]

Big question

Why were the witnesses species so human

[queen swallow]

Why can't they be?

[river surge]

All the species we have encountered were so Alien in fact

They were kinda like us but bald

and pale

😭

[river surge]

Was Yor the strongest dredgen in the lore

Or was there someone even stronger?

[trim grotto]

Dredgen Yor is the only Dredgen of his era we know of. All others merely followed in his footsteps.

[hallow horizon]

Wait did dredgens have some special abilities or something?

I still don't quite get the whole picture

[sick yew]

The Dredgens were an order of mostly Lightbearers who followed in the way of one Dredgen Yor one of the first Lightbearers to fall to corruption back in the early-ish City Age

Long story very short, Noble Titan Rezzyl Azzir decides to go to the Moon (during a time where it wasnt considered safe to patrol), he gets into a fight with the Hive there and leaves with an artifact that he puts onto his gun, except the artifact was a trap by the hive wizard and it corrupts Rezzyl making him evil and making his gun evil too, it becomes 'Thorn' a weapon that can sever the connection between a lightbearer and their ghost aka a weapon of sorrow aka a weapon that can kill Lightbearer

[trim grotto]

TL;DR, Yor had the Guardian Killing Gun

[sick yew]

Exactly

He was The Guy with The Gun

[trim grotto]

Dredgens after that were basically following in his footsteps, seeking forbidden power through Darkness.

This is where Drifter came to know them, and realised they were schmucks.

[sick yew]

Basically a club of jokers doing the things the Vanguard said was too edgy

[trim grotto]

It's why he's known as Dredgen Hope

[trim grotto]

yeah haha

Anyway Shin was like "ay lmao this is kind of a good idea but these guys are dumb. drifter, dawg, let's get the guardians using darkness but in a not stupid way."
and thus was born Gambit

And for the old Dredgens who were like "naw we WANT corruption and too much power", Shin set up the Shadows of Yor - the super edgy fanclub for the edgiest fellas.

and then he killed 'em

[sick yew]

What about that fella who Drifter actually kinda liked but Shin was like nah fuck him and literally turned him into a mural in the ascendant plane

[trim grotto]

oh no Callum was totally in on the bit

he went full martyr

[sick yew]

Wait fr?

[trim grotto]

yeah it was a fake ghost his actual ghost is fine

[sick yew]

Lmfaooo

[trim grotto]

still staying dead though

sells the "Man With The Golden Gun" thing

[sick yew]

Thats hilarious

Is Bael the only Dredgen we know that isnt a Lightbearer?

[trim grotto]

I don't know of any non-Lightbearers prior to Renegades, UNLESS we assume Dredgen Yor himself wasn't one any longer.

While Vincent still lives to this day, Yor forced him to leave.

[sick yew]

Well yeah but he started as one so it counts

[river surge]

So he was unique

To that era eh

[icy grove]

What's the deal with bael?

Enlighten me but try not to spoil... I don't remember the beginning cutscenes

[hard sigil]

Dredgen who appears to have a member of the Nine on his side. that's pretty much all I can say without spoiling anything

[icy grove]

What's a dredgen

[icy grove]

Also is he a guardian or no

[hard sigil]

no

[hard sigil]

cult that follows the teachings of a corrupted guardian

[icy grove]

I have that title on

Is it like... Bad? Or is it just another thing

I'll like social group

[hard sigil]

it's a cult

[icy grove]

Oh... I see

[hard sigil]

(the Shadows of Yor are secretly a sting operation run by Shin Malphur, intended to control how much access potentially malicious guardians have to corrupting material, or worst case, draw them out so Shin can kill them if they're too far gone)

the reason bael wants the drifter is because he used to be a Dredgen

but he left the organisation after realising they were weird freaks

and that's also why Dredgen is the gambit title

[trim grotto]

Don't worry too much about that. Us using the title was in an attempt to reclaim it for the Guardians.

Bit of a long story haha

[icy grove]

Bael of drifter?

[hard sigil]

drifter

he went by Dredgen Hope

he's a man of many names and pasts

[icy grove]

Fitting

So

How did we meet aunor? Did she just show up

[hard sigil]

she's been a background character in the lore for a long time

but this is the first time we've seen her in game

generally we haven't really had to directly interact with the Praxic order because the vanguard like us

[slim elk]

Technically we even worked with her before to investigate Drifter (if you choose to do so)

It's one of those odd cases where it's a character we should have seen directly but was relegated to lore tabs

Like Mithrax and his Fireteam with Zero Hour. Briefing gets skipped over entirely

[ember storm]

Little known fact, your wavering loyalty to the vanguard has not gone unnoticed

[trim grotto]

While we hadn't met Aunor directly until Renegades, we'd been interacting with her since Season of the Drifter years ago. As a Praxic Warlock, she was investigating Drifter for his dealings with Darkness, and we had to choose whether to work with her or Drifter.

[icy grove]

Man praxic people are lame

Well were

They're changing right

[slim elk]

Hang a big "maybe" on that question

[trim grotto]

Slowly. They're the most zealous faction of the Guardians, dedicated to outright destruction of Darkness, so it's taking a while.

[ember storm]

I mean depends on your definition of change anyway

They’ve been pretty one note for a while

[icy grove]

She kinda bad tho

[slim elk]

When it takes someone breaking into their temple and using their artifacts to maybe get them to change views...

[ember storm]

Anything different from the status quo is going to be pretty slight considering

[trim grotto]

It's not entirely unreasonable to see things as they do, though. While we know a lot more about the nature of Darkness now, their faction was founded in a time of ignorance, where Darkness was seen as the purely malevolent force that drove us to Collapse and corrupted Lightbearers.

[ember storm]

I think we just need to accept that humanity sucks ass at security measures

Remember zero hour letting an entire small army of fallen just set up shop in the old tower

Including multiple walkers

[slim elk]

Not wrong
We literally had no security on Immaru at all.. when we have specifically designed device's to restrain Ghosts

[ember storm]

there was also the smuggling of the Rhulk corpse samples

Yknow what maybe Bael is right we just gotta go

[slim elk]

The villain has a point.
We didn't even start discussing the ability to bring back the Consensus after we offed the Witness

[ember storm]

The witness had some solid points let’s try it again

We can start with neomuna

[slim elk]

They are probably already just a step away from creating a new Witness actually

Everyone's in the Cloudark

[ember storm]

We can put an end to capybara hour once and for all

[slim elk]

Heck
We really should have some sort of liason between groups

We got the Awoken under Mara, the Neomuna population, the Aionans and House Light

[ember storm]

Has neomuna been relevant at all

I haven’t played since heresy

[slim elk]

Bungies ignoring its existence entirely despite it having very revelant info

[trim grotto]

Neomuna makes the whole "we don't know what year it is" even sillier than it already reasonably is haha

[ember storm]

Things never change

[slim elk]

See Lodis rant about no one knowing the date or how long it's been the collapse lol

[ember storm]

not to mention the looming time limit of Nimbus’ expiration date

[trim grotto]

Yes, how close would they be to that now, anyway?

[ember storm]

Well Rohan was pretty close to retirement wasn’t he

[trim grotto]

Quite, yeah

[ember storm]

There’s only ever two Cloudstriders while the old one mentors the new one right

So I’d assume nimbus is relatively fresh

now the real ticking time bomb of Colonel

[trim grotto]

Let's say four years passed since they pick up one halfway
It's been three years since Lightfall
So Nimbus probably has three years left?

[ember storm]

Chickens at most only live a decade

[slim elk]

Even assuming Nimbus started the day we showed up.. they don't have long

[ember storm]

Hm

Assuming Cloudstriders don’t usually get atomized like Rohan, would they be eligible for resurrection

Would it be their original human body

[trim grotto]

I assume so. I mean, Exo can be resurrected.

[ember storm]

actually Ana still has some implants doesn’t she

[trim grotto]

On the same note, I expect they'd keep an augmented body.

[trim grotto]

The eye things were contacts

So I'm not sure if she does

[ember storm]

daw

[trim grotto]

Either way I expect Cloudstriders probably could be resurrected, with implants
But they're also self-destructive, so... maybe not.

[slim elk]

Lorewise the Cloudstrider process appears to have never been perfected since the first one emerged from an accident

[ember storm]

yeah Neomuna sure does love its happy accidents

[slim elk]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/mikaela-julaha#book-cloud-strider-legacies

[trim grotto]

Very odd for centuries of progress. You'd think they'd at least be able to produce a more stable, if less effective, method.

[ember storm]

Do you think Savathun foresaw all of this or just chose Neptune arbitrarily

[trim grotto]

I think she chose Neptune simply because the planetary storms were perfect to hide things in.

Plus, who'd expect the stolen End-Universe-McGuffin would be kept in the same system as the thing it'd end the universe if connected to?

[slim elk]

Lightfall Era writing sucks as always

Even worse with the obvious solution of it being "intentional" by the local evil scientist wanting an unaware population to experiment on

Seriously
Maya winning would explain practically everything

[ember storm]

I still find it funny that the witness wasn’t like searching around for anything since the collapse

It literally just parked the car out on the sidewalk and waited

[slim elk]

Cant blame it for watching a good show TBH

[icy grove]

Is strand an allegory for connection between all of us or consciousness that we all have

Or both...?

[trim grotto]

The Weave is a connecting thread of consciousness that all sentient beings have. So, both, sure.

[icy grove]

I wanna talk about the hive again

With the tithe thing

They need to do that

But like

Van they just choose how to tithe?

[trim grotto]

Yes, pretty much.

Insomuch as it has to be death, with few exceptions.

[icy grove]

So like, if an acolyte wanted to go chill in the tower

Could it just go kill vex and be friendly?

[slow berry]

if it could find enough vex to kill to not starve to death, sure

and enough time inbetween killing to "chill"

[trim grotto]

Uh, yesn't. Assuming it was left to live, it could do so until the exponential growth of the Worm Parasite hunger outgrows what the Acolyte can feed to it.

[icy grove]

What happens then?

[trim grotto]

The exception is with the Lucent Hive, as the Wellspring and Light floating around their Brood is feeding the Parasite Worms.

[trim grotto]

Oh, they die. That's why the tithe system was crafted in the first place.

The Worm consumes them if it cannot be fed.

[icy grove]

So is that the hive version of aging?

But

Aggressively

[trim grotto]

I suppose so, sure. It's their weakness and their strength.

Oryx was so powerful because he was the head of his brood's Tribute network. It gave him strength. But when we systematically dismantled it by killing Crota and Oryx's Court, we essentially starved him out, allowing us to kill him in the King's Fall Raid.

Without a Tribute network at all, Oryx would have died millennia ago.

Funnily enough, I'd argue the very concept defies their beloved Sword Logic, but the Hive's existence being antithetical to that which they devote themselves isn't a new topic.

[icy grove]

Okay

Sword logic

Remind me

Also, this doesn't apply to the light blessed hive right? The light feeds them?

[trim grotto]

Sword Logic isn't inherently a source of strength. It's a belief system, and the ontological nature of the Worms simply grew parallel to it.
The Sword Logic itself is simple. Might makes right. Those that die deserved to die. With the death of the weak, the universe is stronger.

The Hive believe relying upon others, or helping others, goes against the Sword Logic. It means you're weak or they're weak, and the weak deserve to die.

Ironic, since the Hive need their Tribute network to live.

[icy grove]

So the opposite of communism

In a way

[trim grotto]

This is true insomuch as it feeds the hunger of the Parasite Worms, yes. They still follow the Sword Logic regardless, because it's a culture to them.

[trim grotto]

I suppose so, in a rather extreme way.

[icy grove]

The hive did not take the red scare very well

So the sword logic is culture

Tithing is a lifestyle

[trim grotto]

If by lifestyle you mean necessity, sure. And any Hive who selfishly keeps Tribute without Tithe will be killed if caught.

[icy grove]

Wait

What?

Wait

Okay

Run me down on like what EXACTLY tithing is

I might have made a mistake

[trim grotto]

Acolyte Jim Jimly kills an Eliksni. Let's say this generates three (3) tithes. (Tithes aren't an actual unit of measurement, but hey ho.)

Acolyte Jim Jimly sends two (2) tithes to his superior, Knight Hivebo Baggins, and Jim Jimly keeps the one (1) remaining tithe to feed his Parasite Worm and get a bit stronger.

Knight Hivebo Baggins is getting Tithes from multiple Thrall and Acolytes, as well as earning some of his own. Like Jim Jimly, he keeps some, gets stronger, and sends the rest up the chain.

Eventually, this gets to the leader of the Brood. Oryx, for example. Oryx has the biggest hunger and needs the most Tithe, so the giant pyramid scheme is needed to sustain him.

[icy grove]

How do you like... Keep some for your self or send them up?

[slow berry]

hive magic

we don't exactly know how it works (eris probably does)

[trim grotto]

Not really something we can explain, honestly. The Hive bond with the Parasite Worms and the Worms consume the... concept of death.

Basically it's just too alien to say "here's how"

[icy grove]

Is there like

An opposite

Of the praxic order?

Like a group of people who like teach the darkness and say it's chill

[dapper kayak]

i don't think so

[icy grove]

Making one

[dapper kayak]

would be cool

id join if i had an actual name for my guardian

[trim grotto]

Informally. Elsie, Drifter, Eris.

It's kind of the whole vibe of Gambit.

[icy grove]

Well

I feel like three people is a bit different from an entire order

[trim grotto]

Yes, well, Darkness has only been endorsed in the last four or so years.

It's spreading, though. Ikora, Zavala, Osiris, many random Guardians

[icy grove]

I got this

I'm gonna use eye of another world

signifying sight into the truth about darkness, how it's not malicious and we should make the most use of out of it we can

Am I cooking or what

[slim girder]

Dredgens would be the opposite. Morally grey guardians who experiment with darkness and in some cases even turning completely to it

The shadows of yor was an organisation of dredgens who while still good learnt to walk that fine line and control darker powers.
Though the ones who did take it too far were put down permanently by shin malphur.

[icy grove]

Lumina

So

It started as rose

Turned to thorn

Then to lumina?

[hard sigil]

rose -> thorn -> rose -> lumina

it was purged of darkness and then imbued with light

[icy grove]

Is there like a notable armor piece or set used by dredgens

[trim grotto]

Yesn't

We've got... four generations of Dredgens.

G1: Dredgen Yor.
G2: The Dredgens formed in Yor's footsteps, + Shadows of Yor
G3: Us, via Gambit
G4: Bael and co

[slim girder]

The necrotic grips exotic was made by a rogue warlock researcher named Jana 14 who was experimenting with a thorn replica and was "tempted" by it's corrosive powers to the point she went rogue and created the osteo striga

[trim grotto]

Dredgen Yor's look isn't singular and isn't really pinned down.

The G2 Dredgens didn't have a uniform, but we do know of the specific look of one of them.

G3 Dredgens, us, we've got Gambit armour. Gambit Prime gear specifically, I'd argue.

[icy grove]

Went rough from the vanguard or from the dredgens

[slim girder]

The temptations of the thorn replica she was experimenting with.
She watched as it infected live animals and even killed one of her colleagues and eventually she became much more interested in it to the point people were expendable in a way

[trim grotto]

She wasn't a Dredgen per se, she was a Vanguard Warlock researcher. Like Thorn corrupted Rezyl Azzir, it also corrupted Jana-14.

[slim girder]

Thorn and other weapons of sorrow have this ability to whisper to people in proximity to them. And it's hard to resist it for a lot of people

They are also hungry weapons designed for violence alone.

Jana 14 kills innocent civilians and feeds their bones to her osteo striga to sate it's hunger

She even views it as her own child.

[icy grove]

Interesting...

[slim girder]

The original thorn was always whispering to dredgen yor and he murdered many guardians and civilians just to feed his thorn with their light

That's where he got his name The Devourer from

Our thorns are just replicas. Still possessing the corrosive powers and some level of dark temptation/hunger but not able to permanently kill guardians or anything.

[trim grotto]

Hence why it's legal in Crucible haha

[icy grove]

So osteo striga is off brand thorn

😭

[slim girder]

Osteo and necrochasm are different weapons of sorrow but thorn was the the first one

[slim girder]

Funny that the vanguard urges guardians to destroy red death and crimson on sight though

[trim grotto]

Sort of. It literally consumes bones, though.

[icy grove]

I thought weapons of sorrow were hive

They're darkness?

[slim girder]

Weapons of sorrow are human weapons twisted by hive magics to make something new and more powerful

[trim grotto]

And Hive rituals draw on Darkness.

[icy grove]

So it's hive darkness

[slim girder]

Yes.
Again they are human made weapons that have been changed and twisted by hive magic.
That is the key component of a weapon of sorrow

Thorn originally was human made hand cannon called Rose.
Necrochasm was originally just an Auto rifle but was then twisted by the hive into something else which we then made into the necrochasm

Osteo striga is presumably a Veist SMG that through the feeding of bones by Jana 14 changed into what we see it as

[icy grove]

So my title being dredgen, using darkness, and weapons of sorrow with necrotic grips... That just all happened to be together without me knowing any of this 😭

I'm not kidding either

I've been running osteo and necrotic grips forever

[slim girder]

The current weapons of sorrow in the game rn are
Thorn
Osteo striga
Bad juju
Touch of malice (Kinda)
Necrochasm.
Though in gameplay necrotic grips only works with thorn, osteo, ToM and necrochasm

[icy grove]

What is the book of sorrow?

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/books-of-sorrow

[slim girder]

It's like the hive bible.
Books 1-6 are about the history of the hive written eons ago.
But 7-8 are much newer forms of it written in the not so distant past.

[icy grove]

Hiveble

Okay

[icy grove]

Yo is that image moving or am I tripping

[slim girder]

Might be time for you to sleep

[trim grotto]

You appear to be tripping.

[icy grove]

Hang on

I'm making build

Are there any weapons of sorrow that aren't exotic

Besides the husk

[hard sigil]

nerp

[icy grove]

The thingy on mars

That lets you craft stuff

The relic

[slim girder]

What about it?

[icy grove]

What's the connection there with the hive

If there is

[trim grotto]

None with the Hive, specifically.

It's no coincidence it was found on Mars. When the Witness stole the various celestial bodies, it was scouring their individual timelines, seeking out information from the Golden Age in an attempt to find the Veil.

Mars was stolen from the Witness by Savathun before the job was done, which is why the time scars still cover the surface. The Mars Enclave/Relic was the key to this.

[hard sigil]

the strongest connection is that we used the same aspect of darkness, Deepsight, to help us navigate the throne world and do some snooping around with savathûn's memory

[trim grotto]

That, and a particular entry regarding Titan's own timeline scouring.

[river surge]

I have learned something interesting

During the Long Drift

The Eliksni found tetrahedral ship (Pyramid vessel) that was much older, destroyed and looked different

This was where they found the um, conversation between HNW and RS

And how HNW did a "final shape" to a system

the whole system was destroyed

So in theory this might be the oldest record we have ever found ever

Besides the Unveiling

Well all of the records regarding the precursors that were found were old asf

But this one was the oldest

[slim girder]

Are you talking about the lore found in the CE for the final shape?
The one where Eido was able to decrypt conversations from the precursors?

[river surge]

Yup

[slim girder]

Honestly no clue about the precursors tbh.
In the CE we did see conversations about them but as with most things in Destiny a timeline is completely left out to avoid complications.

[river surge]

I just found them super interesting

Based on what I read

HNW seemed to be RS "friend" or "disciple"

They were working together

Towards the "final shape"

However they both had different opinion and ideas

In the end they went full Witness style

[slim girder]

The precursors were split into groups. Ones named "The Penitent" seem to be the one who would eventually enact the ritual to create the witness while the others, willing or not joined them

[river surge]

Ik

[pseudo pebble]

Is this generation of Dredgens the weakest

[river surge]

Also also

RS escaped

The Witness

Meaning he may still be alive

[pseudo pebble]

Bael, Sere and Harrow

[river surge]

Not really

All of them had unique opportunities that eventually failed

Also HNW was the one who went with the um Penitent

[hard sigil]

they're not true dredgens and they're not lightbearers, so in that regard yes. but they do have a member of the nine and seemingly much more advanced control over taken energy

[slim girder]

They do have a lightbearer though. But based on lore it seems they haven't actually earned their new name and title yet.
But they watched what Sere could do.

[hard sigil]

oh yeah that one student

isn't she ghostless

[pseudo pebble]

she should leave those frauds

[slim girder]

Yes. Thahaaz.
Her ghosts name was beetle and she was a ghost who wanted to befriend the hive. Her race isn't stated so we don't know if she's similar to Luzaku and broke away or if they were just a human lightbearer who's ghost was just really interested in the hive.

[hard sigil]

a Dredgen hive lightbearer would be interesting

full circle

[slim girder]

She crushed her ghost so she doesn't have the light.
So I guess she is holding onto hope that through the dredgens she can learn new powers

[slim elk]

Given the name and the description of Beetle? Thahaaz is Hive

You already got it

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/arid-rambler

Chitinous shell and wanting to befriend Hive

[slim girder]

But wouldn't a hive shell already be friends with the hive? Again we don't have any confirmation except some descriptions.
And ghosts can still be good and wear chitinous shells.

[slim elk]

You can play semantics all you want

[slim girder]

If she wanted to befriend the hive then Thahaaz might've been a guardian who spent a lot of time on Luna or around areas like the Skywatch

[slim elk]

It's the The Law of Conservation of Detail

Why mention the "befriend the Hive" if not relevant?

[slim girder]

Some ghosts are unique like that.
Beetle and her having that kind of shell would absolutely be something a person would do if they wanted to try and befriend someone.
Also wouldn't a cabal faction immediately try and tear the hive apart considering it was them who took Torobatl?

A hive guardian showing up in a room full of cabal with no light would be like throwing yourself to wolves

[slim elk]

Another factor be that name
Doesn't exactly fit the naming conventions for humanity and Awoken

So a name that doesn't fit typical conventions
A Ghost interested in Hive that was crushed with a chitinous shell

The description matches the Hive Lightbearers

[slim girder]

This is destiny. Naming is very different than normal already.
Zavala, ikora, Osiris, Uldren/crow, Mara, Petra, etc.
The only people who seem to have normal names are Amanda, Ana/Elsie and Eva

Ada as well I guess though I personally have never met an Ada IRL

I don't deny Thahaaz is hive but I also don't think we should just make an absolute confirmation just based off a couple descriptions that are still quite vague and can be interpreted differently

[slim elk]

My question is, why be so pedantic about this when you yourself admitted the possibility?

[slim girder]

I said it was possible. You said it was without a shadow of doubt but you can't actually confirm that.

[slim elk]

The evidence leans towards it with the extra details from Beetle.

Plus your argument is heavily flawed. It's not the Imperium in that lore tab. It's the Dredgens themselves

Sere weeding out a bunch of potential apprentices.. including several Barant (Cabal)

[slim girder]

The dredgens are part of the imperium.
Aunor calls them the imperial dredgens. Their leader is Bael who is also the leader of the Barant imperium.

[slim elk]

And you know from all the other lore Bael is using the Imperium as a means to an end. A convenient source of cannon fodder

It's already breaking apart

[slim girder]

That still doesn't change the fact the dredgens are still a part of the imperium.
We literally have a cabal dredgen with Harrow and in the lore we have many more cabal trying to become dredgens.

[river surge]

Harrow did in fact look very dredgen

[slim girder]

Some may be different races but generally it does seem like Bael is recruiting dredgens in the imperium

[river surge]

I think I have already said this but Bael is using the imperium, everything he does in the background is on his own and his own agenda

[slim elk]

Yep. I already pointed that out

Heck the Totality Division is their whole intelligence agency and Rao works with us

[slim girder]

Oh yeah I don't deny that. But as I said the dredgens are still apart of the imperium. But once they are bigger I'd fully expect them to split away even

[river surge]

Yeah

I dont deny that

[slim elk]

So.. you undercut your own point?

Dredgens got their own agendas seperate from the Imperium

[river surge]

I just connect this to Star Wars and they way the Sith operates and how Bael operates its very similar

[slim elk]

Indeed

Betrayal is the way of the Sith

[river surge]

Yes

[slim girder]

You can still be apart of something while having a different agenda

But they will still do what the imperium needs.
At least for now

[slim elk]

Yes
But your trying to say the Imperium has total control over a Dredgen recruiting bit

[river surge]

Darth Sidious was the emperor of the galactic empire while in the background he was doing a whole cloning thing

[slim girder]

I said Bael is recruiting dredgens through the imperium.

I never stated they had control

[river surge]

I know what Retro is trying to say

[slim elk]

Hmm?

[river surge]

but its hard for me to connect

xd

[slim girder]

Bael chooses the recruits and Sere seems to also be a person who "tests" them

[river surge]

I personally think Bael choose Sere to help him then betray him

[slim girder]

We still don't know too much about Sere. He's also dead now to so I'm not really sure we might ever get more on him.

[river surge]

Bael own agenda is far beyond the Imperium and Dredgens its far obvious he dosent care abt this at all, but he does indeed recruit dredgens in the imperium so he can gain more "allies" furthering his own agenda

Thats what I would do personally

in the end betraying them

[slim elk]

Yep
And logically be open to Hive.. since Dredgens are all about following the Darkness

[river surge]

Yes

[slim elk]

Thus the lore tab being evidence that is taking place

[river surge]

Shadow and Order is gonna be abt us taking over Hive weapons or smth like that

after hearing from Byf

so dredgens are gonna be there too

[slim elk]

We do got a brewing civil war going on as well

With Sere Bungie finally broke the "no shooting humans" bit

[river surge]

I never understood the "no shooting humans"

there has to be casualities in such a way

They fr need to break that

[slim elk]

Given the civilians are arming up in the city and Bael openly addressing the dictatorship going on?

Good chance for it

[river surge]

100%

[slim elk]

Nightfall was explicitly going to spare all the Lightless

I guess Bungie just forgot the lore regarding the Awoken and Exos connection to paracausal forces though

[river surge]

LOL

[slim elk]

Am I wrong?

[river surge]

NO

Thats why I said LOL cause its really wierd

how they forgot abt that

[slim elk]

Exo? Reliant on vex milk exposed to Darkness
Awoken? Mix of light and dark

[river surge]

Yeah

[slim elk]

Granted
It's not the first epic blunder they made recently

Remember Lodis rant about no one knowing how long its been since the collapse?

[river surge]

I think Allison said in an interview that they prefer not give dates or years

[slim elk]

Yeah. Bungies just ignoring the whole cyberpunk city that has continuously archived their history

[river surge]

since they might forget in the future

[slim elk]

Neomuna

[river surge]

How tf did the The Anomaly (darkness artifact) arrived on the moon before the Collapse

wait

before the Traveler

sorry

Bungie knows

[slim elk]

If you pay attention, decent amount of hints that Sol was a trap by the Witness

[river surge]

It was before The Traveler actually

[slim elk]

It actually managed to corner the Traveler after all

Planted artifacts to corrupt the local species

Nezarec had a cult...

[river surge]

Oh shit

WAIT

Nezarec that might be answer

but how did they get on the moon tho

[slim elk]

"Paracausal nonsense cares not for logic"

[river surge]

Destiny

[slim elk]

But yes

Remember Clovis Bray managed to experiment with Stasis during the Golden Age

[river surge]

He went to this

artifact

and it told him to go Europa

in search for immortality

yes

[slim elk]

And while it may be a hated fact. He was the man basically behind a lot of shit in the Golden Age

[river surge]

Yeah

[slim elk]

So corrupt him, make him listen to the Witness...

The trap springs

[river surge]

Clarity Control was a dissenter

Maybe The Witness placed Clarity there especially for Clovis

[slim elk]

Indeed

Since those statues seem to double as a way to spread and control darkness

[river surge]

Also the one in um Europa Clarity

seemed to be far more sentient than the others

cause we know it killed Clovis crew

researchers

so The Witness didnt care a bit abt the others only for Clovis

[slim elk]

The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world...

points to Clovis plan to hijack or destroy the Traveler in Seraph

[river surge]

I might be dumb

but why would The Witness tell Eramis to destroy the Traveler

if they needed it for TFS?

[slim elk]

A pawn. Nothing more

[river surge]

But what if it actually shoot the Traveler xd

and The Traveler went boom

no more TFS

[slim elk]

Probably wouldn't kill it entirely lol

But wound it again

See how long the Traveler resisted

[river surge]

It did in fact

The Traveler ran so much from them and yet they survived

I wonder if RS is still alive tho

[slim elk]

Be lot harder to resist if your bleeding out after all

[river surge]

Probably not since he is billions of years old

[slim elk]

Yeah
So Sol appears to have been a gambit by the Witness to trap the Traveler

Place the artifacts
Corrupt the local species..

[river surge]

Okay

The Precursors

had some sort of Obervatory that could predict the future

what if The Witness about Sol

so thats why they did all of this

[slim elk]

Predicted where the Traveler would run next..

[river surge]

Oh

[slim elk]

Remember
It worked

[river surge]

Yeah

it did

[slim elk]

Savathun had to save the Traveler

[river surge]

Mhm

Also the glass minds were the vex no?

[slim elk]

le shrug

[river surge]

I personally liked The Witness as a villain, and everything regarding it, down to its backstory and arhitecture and more

I wonder what VI will offer

[slim elk]

The main failure regarding the Witness is Bungies failure to properly foreshadow it

[river surge]

Indeed

The Witness didnt exist till Witch Queen

it only existed as a cloak

[slim elk]

Would have been nice for Ahsa to talk with us all those years on Titan lol

[river surge]

She was shy back then

xd

[slim elk]

Or even better
Use Neomuna as an example of humanity inadvertently following the path the Witness did to create itself

[river surge]

Also how did Ahsa knew so much about the precusors?

[slim elk]

"Reasons"

[river surge]

Bungie...

[slim elk]

Put it this way
The Cloudark sounds like even more of a bad idea when you remember what the Witness actually is no?

[river surge]

Also

Precusors were bald

Bungie

why are we making everything in Destiny bald

[slim elk]

Hair physics are expensive

[eager trout]

I suppose that didn't happen because you can't really accidentally do something with the Darkness unless someone else was pulling the strings. Even if the "Matrix" was made using the Veil, the reason for its creation wasn't for the purpose of fusing people. In a way, what the Witness species did was twist the Veil's natural capabilities to become something that shouldn't exist.

[eager trout]

Ultimately the purpose was different. The Witness requires unity of mind, while the Cloudark is just for connection of separate minds that still retain their individuality.

[river surge]

Maybe that theory of sea of minds is actually real

[icy grove]

So, to poorly summarize the witness wanted stagnation yes?

[slim girder]

Calcification.
An end to all life and death in the universe.
Preserved in a perfect stillness

[river surge]

What Retro said

✌️

[icy grove]

Hey

Why hasn't anyone said anything

[queen swallow]

No one's had any lore questions or theories

[icy grove]

I have a theory

Savathun

Yeah

Bug

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/fascinating-mr-spock-henoch-star-trek-the-original-series-gif-23404763

[trim grotto]

Please do not the hive god of lies and deception

[vague jacinth]

Real.

[river surge]

Oryx

Big SMASH

The Witness

[river surge]

Cause Io needs to return from the Ascendant Plane

[fading light]

what is the lore reason ammo drops from enemies

[blazing wasp]

afaik, its not a thing in lore

[slim girder]

It's just a video game reason. Gotta take some liberties with lore

[blazing wasp]

a lore heavy video game like Destiny cant really have all the gameplay stuff translate into lore.

that would get restrictive

[river surge]

I hope Bungie will bring back the dark fantasy style with The Shattered Cycle and that monster

I just want to see pile of dead guardians while going into that monster lair

[icy grove]

Enemies use guns, they drop ammo

Def

[trim grotto]

There's some rather obscure D1 vanilla information about Ghost synthesising ammunition from scavenged components

Similarly to how Ghost was the one who fashioned our freshly rezzed "armour" from surrounding material

[fading light]

oh thats cool

ok thx

[little relic]

Man I got so excited but instead it's just about The Ghost.

Damn.

https://tenor.com/view/triste-gif-27628801

[dim minnow]

stop trying to make the Ghoul work it's never going to work

hell everyone already forgot about it

[little relic]

I've long since stopped talking about The Gh*ul 🤮.
I'm sad they were talking about The Ghost 😔

[hard sigil]

for what it's worth I liked the ghoul

[river surge]

The Ghoul

[hard sigil]

wall torn goggles

[river surge]

Ok bro Clovis HAD to go

That man was evil

💀

Well not go

That still big head is there

Lets hope he dosent return cause this mf caused so much trouble

🙏

[vague jacinth]

The Ghoul from Fallout?

[river surge]

Nah

The Ghoul from Destiny

[trim grotto]

don't ask

[vague jacinth]

What‘s up with the Ghoul?

[trim grotto]

It doesn't exist. That person's been trying to push it for months.

[queen swallow]

Chicago, 1971, The Incident ||I have no idea what I’m saying||

[hard sigil]

elaborate joke to convince their friend into believing in a character that doesn't exist

which I can appreciate

[river surge]

the Ghoul is a fictional character introducted in Destiny by a guy, however The Ghoul in reality is just a title

But I do like the way he always brings him up, I personally think its funny

[vague jacinth]

Does he use a Chicago Typewriter?

[river surge]

Kinda

The Ghoul and Clovis were once friends in the Golden Age

They conducted experiemnts on patients using Clarity

They gave them pills to nurse them for years without eating

ended up in a disaster

[river surge]

Also why tf was there a pyramid vessel in Qugu planet?

[vague jacinth]

Earf.

[river surge]

This Witness had the power to implant things remotely where ever he wanted

[dim minnow]

the Qugu had ties to Darkness, but in a chill sort of way

maybe the Witness was trying to cultivate other species with Darkness kind of like what the Traveler did with the Light

of course the Witness probably was disappointed that the Qugu weren't total assholes and let the Hive knock them off

[river surge]

Well they did in fact hold them for a good

but The Witness betrayed them

The Pyramid literally shattered the whole planet

[dim minnow]

I do wonder though, it was Savathun specifically who attacked them and stole their Pyramid

then when the Qugu waged their final stand Oryx pulls up and starts 3rd partying which gave them an opening for the suicide charge

[river surge]

See

No wonder why an echo had a memory of the Qugu

Te'Qal did in fact do everything he could to destroy the Hive but The Witness got impatient

Also the same echo that Maya has

Echo of Command

[slim girder]

Weirdly enough in those final moments of that charge apparently the witness reached out and offered him a discipleship or place in the final shape.

[river surge]

They probably saw something in Te'Qal

[dim minnow]

"Oh hey I guess you guys aren't that helpless after all"

[hard sigil]

to be fair it probably saw a bit of itself in Te'Qal

a mind, using the darkness to connect to a much larger whole

[river surge]

Maybe the echoes are actual memories on The Witness and his own belief in those civilisations, imagine an Echo containing a Rhulk as a memory of Lubrae

Same as the Navigator

[sick yew]

Except Rhulk wouldnt be a bro like Oryx

[river surge]

Rhulk the chad

Bro would do anything to kill us

[sick yew]

Except actually try until its too late

Bro would rather sit there and talk shit until we literally walk up to his cocoon and beat his ass

[river surge]

Rhulk was a big narcissist

he always believed everything he said to be right

After he got uplifted by The Witness he only did wrong things that he believed to be right

[fluid peak]

The whole mentality is pretty narcissistic tbf

'i am the bestest ever and I shall prove it by slaughter. Now no-one can disagree with me!!'

[blazing wasp]

the sword logic is just a manifestation of the people who talk about physical violence to conclude an argument or disagreement

[river surge]

So the ball at the end of Shadowkeep that The Witness gave to us, leading us to the Black Garden and learning Unveiling so happend to be on Riis too?

Cause from what I have heard rn, The House of Rain from Riis recovered something similar from a "pyramid vessel" that showed the Kell the vision of the future of Riis

But the Kell didnt understand and threw it in the forest

and an animal from Riis got infected with it

and started attacking Eliksni but ended up being killed and when it died this ball similar to the one from um Shadowkeep was dropped from it

So the Black Fleet had already influenced Riis

[hallow horizon]

Oh wait the conductor killed the nine 3?

I wasn't following AT ALL during EoF

[queen swallow]

She killed III, not all of the Nine

[river surge]

III

[hallow horizon]

Fuck me

Yeah obviously

I was thinking about 3

No clue why I said the nine LMAO

[icy grove]

Lame, the story was goated imo

I know people didn't like it but it was genuinely one of my favs

[past shard]

hey everyone! im new here!

does anyone think marathon might scale off of destiny's cosmology from being paraversal?

I know the physics alone in the destiny universe are hard established and high complex for any other known fiction. Infinity x infinity levels of large and I was wondering if marathon would share. just wondering is all

[dim minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-the-witch-queen-vow-of-the-disciple-vow-caretaker-gif-25077494

[past shard]

i always thought his reaction to us was funny

bro was locked in

[queen swallow]

"physics ... are hard established" someone gets domed in the head by a rabbit embryo because some black matter wanted to make a person a queen and we throw strands of memory at people to make them float.

If anything, Destiny has scaled off of Marathon given Marathon came first.

[hard sigil]

Marathon is more grounded than destiny,as far as I know

no space magic or paracausal beings

obviously it's still sci-fi but I don't expect anything on destiny's scale of weirdness

but that being said they did turn Deimos into a spaceship in marathon

[dim minnow]

Hive do the same to moons

[past shard]

I meant more so when the laws of physics are not being violated LOL. Like The Vex structures. I would agree with destiny scaling off marathon but I don't know how to properly analyze it when destiny came in with metaphysics and converging timelines on frame 1. Would marathon have anything of higher magnitude to give destiny in terms of scaling?

[queen swallow]

Maybe in terms of Artificial Intelligence? I remember that kind of being a big thing in the original game but it sounds like they've done away with that in the rework. Destiny's really only got one (1) AI

[past shard]

That is particularly why I wanted to stick to destiny's scientific side of the spectrum. Its vast and isn't magical at all.

[hard sigil]

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -Arthur C. Clarke
works in inverse too

all the magical aspects of destiny are grounded in science

just happens that most of the time it doesn't necessarily abide by the commonly accepted laws of science

[past shard]

Rasputin is intelligent enouph to know if he is a simulated copy. Though this confuses me because vex simulate things with no deviation and 100% accuracy if it isn't paracausal

[hard sigil]

the vex aren't ai

but that's besides your point actually I misread that

[past shard]

True. At the same time though, at least from my POV,

Para-casuality fits the idea of magic the most. Doing something that is fundamentally impossible.

Although People sometimes say that to be dismissive of what the characters are doing. They might say “space magic” even though it’s much more than that, or smaller depending on perspective.

How do we scientifically explain ascendent realms though? That should be legit unachievable as far as I’m concerned. (It actually would be but para-causality being an established rule in the universe makes it possible)

[hard sigil]

well there's not really any telling either way if there is a realm defined by the will of beings

[past shard]

real

[trim grotto]

The upcoming Marathon, possibly not. But 1, 2, 3, and PiD (same universe)? ...possibly. Marathon 3 in particular did a lot of work with alternate timelines, and AI had a huge part in it, with the steps of rampancy and Durandal's journey. Then there's the apparent creation of nightmare dreams from the Pyramid below Earth's surface.

[hallow horizon]

Found it hard to follow

[river surge]

So Destiny multiverse is real

Also

The Dark Future might actually happend

[trim grotto]

It did, among countless others. Elsie personally experienced all of her timelines.

[trim grotto]

Marathon and Destiny are more of a... well, to borrow the term, paraverse. There is a minor level of connection, but they're inherently different in many ways.

But... MIDA.

MIDA Multi-Tool and MIDA Mini-Tool are explicitly from Marathon

[river surge]

More like a collab between games

in a short minor lore term

destiny rising seems to take on the idea of it being an alternate timeline, but thats only if Bungie decides so

[blazing wasp]

the paraverse exists but isnt "important", its not something bound to become a plot point

[trim grotto]

Yes, exactly.

eye em oh, anyway

[icy grove]

That tends to happen when you skip the cutscenes

[hallow horizon]

Never skipped a single cutscene I haven't seen in my life

Say whatever but the truth is that the story just wasn't easy to follow, not for me at least

[trim grotto]

it's cause you kids these days are always on your damn phones

[hallow horizon]

Low-key I understood house of leaves better than the story of EoF

[trim grotto]

where were they leaving to

[hallow horizon]

[hallow horizon]

Anyways it's probably because I usually don't focus on the dialogue when doing missions because I'm using something that's bad enough for me to need to lock in

[trim grotto]

to be sealed away, even

[icy grove]

What I'm saying

[hallow horizon]

?

[hard sigil]

house of leaves? wouldn't it get blown away by the wind?

[hallow horizon]

[river surge]

Are we ever gonna witness Eliksni Lightbearers?

Or its too late cause The Traveler already gave them a chance?

[jagged badge]

I’m not saying they can’t or won’t ever introduce the concept, but from a current story perspective, my thinking is why would the Eliksni get Lightbearers?

[river surge]

I find it cool, + I believe they fit better than the Hive tbh

[jagged badge]

Making humanity Lightbearers was a last resort for the Traveler. Allowing the Ghosts to choose Hive was an attempt at grace and redemption given their circumstances. But the Traveler doesn’t have a reason to involve the Eliksni into being Lightbearers, and does it really benefit the Eliksni either?

The living would see their dead come back with no memories of their friends and family, obligated to now fight forever against whoever

Not involving the Eliksni in the whole Lightbearer thing is kinda sparing them really

[jagged badge]

We’ve seen the negative effects of this in examples such as Bael and his mother

Conversely, examples like Uldren/Crow and Ana reconnecting with Elsie are exceedingly rare

[river surge]

I was about to mention Uldren/Crow and Ana

lol

[jagged badge]

Their stories and abilities to regain their memories or be able to research their past and connect with surviving family is not common against the majority of Guardians

So I’d imagine stories like Bael and his mother are far more common in the population of Guardians

And is that really something the Eliksni should go through?

I don’t think being able to become Lightbearers benefits the Eliksni at all

[river surge]

Well it depends who gets risen now

Fikrul would be a bad idea for example

[fluid peak]

And frankly they were (are) able to take advantage of the light and dark just fine with or without ghosts

[slim girder]

The eliksni fit the role of light "weavers" better imo.
Even mithrax told stories about how the eliksni were blessed with light and then certain members of their species could weave and manipulate that light into tonics

Ixis and Eido are apothecaries who can use light in the creation of tonics. One of those light infused tonics is what killed fikrul

[odd otter]

The traveler gave them light but not the ability to weild it like a guardian or hive lightbearer and since theres probably still unpaired ghosts we can expect some ally eliksni to be chosen but wouldnt count on that

[frigid sparrow]

It's also why the echo of Riis can reverse the polarity of ether

There's that certain attunement to the light that's associated with their history (and thus, their memory)

[odd otter]

Dibs on colonel

[trim grotto]

Alas, friend, the Colonel has already become the Pigeon Lord

Saint has been taking care of the Colonel for some time now

[ember storm]

Chickens also only live a maximum of 10 years so

She’s only got a couple left in her anyway

[frigid sparrow]

hooking up colonel to the light prime servitor like ra's al ghul and the lazarus pit in arkham knight

[slim girder]

Cayde always was a master of tax evasion

I really wish we got a number on those debts

[odd otter]

If shin malphur worked with jaren's ghost doesnt that mean the ghost was still alive to revive jaren? Why just go on an adventure with shin?

[sick yew]

Jaren couldnt be revived

Because he was killed by Thorn

[slim girder]

The OG thorn permanently killed guardians

[sick yew]

Thorn literally severs your connection to the light, if you shoot a lightbearer theyre no longer a lightbearer afterwards

[slim girder]

It ate their light

[sick yew]

Thats why the gun was so feared

Yor didnt kill Jarens ghost but killed Jaren in a way where he could no longer be resurrected after, but cause his Ghost was still alive she just teamed up with Shin as a companion

[slim girder]

Pretty sure bungie said in an interview like a year ago that shin and jarens ghost were like 2 friends brought together through loss.

[sick yew]

Thats pretty much how the lore went anyway no?

[slim girder]

Correct but it was more in the context of if we saw them again what would be the dynamic in the current day of destiny if that makes sense.
Like would it just be shin? Or jarens ghost? Or both.

[odd otter]

"Yeah ill fight something that counters immortality its a good idea"

[slim girder]

He was trying to save people.
Dredgen Yor was a murderer.

[odd otter]

Lowkey would save myself first

[sick yew]

Dredgen Yor was feared among the guardians almost like Saint was for the Eliksni
Jarren was a good man with a sense of justice so he tried his best to stop Yor regardless

[odd otter]

Players killed in pvp by a thorn user should be perma banned ngl

[sick yew]

The Thorn we use isnt the real one

Its just a replica

[odd otter]

😔

[sick yew]

We did actually have the real Thorn but we purified it into Lumina

[slim girder]

Our thorns are replicas. Toxic and hungry yes but no perma death kinds of power

[odd otter]

I use ace of spaces as my main weapon

[sick yew]

Fair

[odd otter]

And colonel's lament as a ship

[slim girder]

Aces buff has made it very solid in PvE I've seen

[sick yew]

Shin gave it to us back in like idk Forsaken I think or around that time so we could do good and turn a weapon of horror into something good

[odd otter]

Meta this meta that i use it cuz i like cayde

Adidas cloudfoam shoes truly are the forbidden hoop kicks

[slim girder]

I use thorn because I've loved it and it's lore since D1. Not in PvP though. I don't like PvP.
I even have a whole thorn collection. Just need a pin to finish it off

[sick yew]

Stop flexing your cool shit bro

[odd otter]

Cayde is forever my goat

[slim girder]

[odd otter]

Warlock allows me to use the ace armband too

[slim girder]

All the cayde class items have an ace on them

[odd otter]

I meant im happy warlock has one too

Its 4 degrees outside lets hope the outdoor court is empty

[slim girder]

You should buy a replica DMT

[sick yew]

Certainly

They probably pricey as shit tho

[odd otter]

@slim girder i have a metal ace of spades in my wallet

[slim girder]

I'm sure bungie might add it to the armoury collection eventually.
They don't do replicas so those plaque versions are the next best thing and they aren't insanely pricey thankfully

[slim girder]

Isn't that also just a bottle opener?

[odd otter]

Dw about it

Its my lucky charm

To gamble

[sick yew]

As a German I can say everything is a bottle opener if you are German enough

[odd otter]

As a french i can say even an infant's head is a bottle opener

[slim girder]

As an Aussie I get that completely.

[sick yew]

Certainly

[odd otter]

I went to cologne before

[sick yew]

Nice city

Was there earlier last year for a concert

[odd otter]

Too clean

[sick yew]

Depends where you were at lmfao

[odd otter]

Quite some time ago i was there for new year

[odd otter]

Idk but everyone had a dog smh

[sick yew]

Its also packed as hell around the dome

[odd otter]

Idk there was some christmas event with kyosks

[sick yew]

Probably the christmas market

[odd otter]

Ye bu wheres that

[trim grotto]

north pole

[sick yew]

Considering the size of Köln theres probably multiple

[odd otter]

I live in paris

[green cobalt]

i forget, is it ever explained why the praxic order "forgot" to protect their vault (or one of their vaults idk)?

[fluid peak]

not explicitly

[sick yew]

They probably have a whole bunch of them so its not possible to have 24/7 security for all of them no?

[fluid peak]

i always assumed they arrogantly thought no one would look for their stuff on europa

[sick yew]

Or that

[green cobalt]

much less a lightless man i guess

[fluid peak]

yeah bael wandering into the europa stash and getting stasis and a blade out of it is bad enough

[sick yew]

Thats where he got stasis from? I thought he got it because of his "contract" with that Nine fella

[fluid peak]

but sere and/or harrow taking over their venus temple is not a good look for the guardian's internal affairs guys

[green cobalt]

he got stasis from the vault?

[fluid peak]

iirc he first meets vi in the vault

which helped him get stasis

[sick yew]

huh

[green cobalt]

[fluid peak]

idk i could be wrong

[green cobalt]

so how did he know to get to the vault

[fluid peak]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

connections via tex, i'd guess

[green cobalt]

maybe true, stay tuned for 10 more years of this saga to find out!

[trim grotto]

I redownloaded D2 this week so I guess I'll find out when I catch up to it haha

[green cobalt]

uh-oh

[sick yew]

Ayo Mael on D2

[trim grotto]

Though I'm having major framerate issues and audio lag piling up

[sick yew]

What is this

[trim grotto]

Like audio cuts out and then audio bombs me all at once, including layering dialogue

[green cobalt]

don't get spoiled now

[sick yew]

Sounds like a skill issue

[trim grotto]

not to mention dropping from 60 to 15 fps in my menus let alone gameplay

which is partially why i stopped playing for a while

[sick yew]

Definitely a skill issue

[green cobalt]

on the topic of spoilers ||is Sere a lightbearer? he shoots arc stuff but then he doesn't have a ghost for us to kill or steal like we did with Immaru||

[slim girder]

He is not

[sick yew]

What is he anyway

Like species wise

[green cobalt]

damn i guess nothing matters anymore

[slim girder]

Human presumably.

His size is due to the amount of power he has. There's even a lore card showing him physically getting bigger

[green cobalt]

sword logic real or something

[trim grotto]

oh god are we going back down the long abandoned "cabal get bigger with ego" thing but in a different way

[green cobalt]

[slim girder]

Channeling shadows as they call it.
So you know how the dungeon mechanic involves stopping cabal from using that taken AOE move?
That is the "bubble" or shadows Sere and the other apprentices are trying to harness.
In the lore one apprentice stepped forward to show they could harness it but failed so Sere used his own power to show what it really looked like, growing in size and in the process hollowed out that apprentice and dropped his corpse on the ground

[green cobalt]

new darkness taken subclass real

2027

[slim girder]

Sere isn't a lightbearer sure but the giant arc reactor he's fueling a throne world with allows him to manipulate that arc energy.
That's how he's got Palpatine tickle fingers

[green cobalt]

oh ok

[trim grotto]

Remember the Proving Grounds? Ignovun can control those fireballs due to a Psion crafted helmet.

Otherwise he's just A Big Fella™

[green cobalt]

could psions rise up and overthrow the cabal?

[slim girder]

Many psions have been in contact with Sere and based on lore they are extremely afraid of him in a psychic sense. His power can kill them very easily so they wrote messages to Rao about what he was doing

[slim girder]

That's what yirix and otzot are trying to do iirc

[green cobalt]

yeah but now that we're allied with Caiatl their enslavement is completely fine

[trim grotto]

I suppose it depends on which Cabal. The Cabal Ascendency, Caiatl's blue ones, aren't enslaved any longer, they're free to leave. The Shadow Legion are... well, half of them are mindless. Other 3rd party Cabal are independent these days, so they're basically pirates. I don't know about the new folks.

[green cobalt]

oh alright

[trim grotto]

Back in Ye Olden Days I think the actual Cabal empire was just too strong for the smaller Psion population, too

So they probably could in small scale cases

[green cobalt]

fair

[slim girder]

No spoilers but they are a much more "traditional" cabal legion. And when playing you'll definitely see those older traditions coming through.

[trim grotto]

Ghaul style? Classic military Cabal?

[slim girder]

Pretty much yeah.

[green cobalt]

if you've seen the Renegades trailers you'll know

[slim girder]

Marching formations, mass weapons, scary intimidating leaders, etc

They really sell themselves as an empire

[trim grotto]

I actually haven't haha

[green cobalt]

[meager coral]

I mean realistically the psions don’t even really need to overthrow the cabal they could just leave if they wanted probably

The imperium is structured but isn’t exactly well led, and caiatl’s legion is stretched pretty thin, but there’s no real value in war when they equally could just leave

[trim grotto]

Like I said, depends on which Cabal.

Psions of the Ascendancy can just leave.

Caiatl explicitly told them so

[river surge]

Sere was a failed Palpatine clone

[green cobalt]

Sere Skywalker 😔

[ember storm]

So who’s the glup shitto of renegades

[slim girder]

?

Explain

[ember storm]

Glup shitto is a term originating from Star Wars discussions where a background character inexplicably gets super popular despite basically zero screentime or even a speaking role but still has like a decently long page on fandom wikis

[slim girder]

Probably the british shank next to spider.

Or that one totality division cabal with a soft spot for war beasts

[river surge]

Randal The Vandal

Rick The Door Technician

[ember storm]

Randal deserves more respect than glup shitto status

He is a hero

[river surge]

😂

Taniks The Immortal

[ember storm]

Sorry I’m currently being accosted by two wretched beasts

[river surge]

OMGGGG THEY SOOO CUTE

[green cobalt]

Lume probably, he was one of the cabal npcs i think in season of the haunted when we confronted Caiatl's nightmare of Ghaul or something

not so much a glup shitto but he used to be, i guess

[slim girder]

Huh?

I don't think Lume had even been conceived at the time of season of the haunted

[slim girder]

Holy shit i did not know this

It's baby Lume

[green cobalt]

Caiatl mentioned he defected iirc

[slim girder]

"Honorable discharge" due to wounds through hive shrapnel.
It's why he uses eclipse energy in his cuirass now

There's a lore tab somewhere saying that surgeons did try but couldn't remove it so he was just removed from the front lines.

[dim minnow]

Yeah, his Eclipse-powered suit is needed to suppress the Dark Hive magic that eats away at him.

[odd otter]

When you look into the lore you realize how absurdly broken guardians are

[blazing wasp]

theyre both broken and also really weak, its very funny

[odd otter]

Depends on who

But if we take the player for example

[blazing wasp]

the lore accurate guardian is probably weaker than in gameplay if we look at "good players" as the metric for gameplay

[odd otter]

Strand.

[blazing wasp]

we're not "strong", just clever, adaptive, good at fighting dirty

[blazing wasp]

thats like saying Cristopher colombus is really strong because he discovered America

we just got lucky

first at the scene

[odd otter]

We still have the power tho

[blazing wasp]

we do yes

doesnt make us unique because... we're not unique in having strand

[odd otter]

Strand is borderline reality manipulation

[blazing wasp]

we were just the first

[blazing wasp]

incorrect

it is

its not borderline, its like stasis, solar, arc, and void

it breaks the laws of physics

[odd otter]

And dont get me started on stasis

[blazing wasp]

we're not exactly unique in these aspects, guardians arent even unique in these aspects.

[odd otter]

Its basically locking someone perfectly still in timr

[blazing wasp]

only thing that appears to make us stand out is prismatic

[blazing wasp]

i mean its kinda in the word

stasis, the real word.

[odd otter]

Our affinity to both light and darkness isnt common

[blazing wasp]

affinity to both isnt super uncommon
affinity to our degree is