📚lore-discussion

[river surge]

the nine in our dimension seems to be powerless

[hazy veldt]

She just dwelled in vex network and some crazy ass artefact drops on her from nowhere and makes her strong enough to kill one of the nine

Like man

I’m sure they could’ve came up with a better way of her acquiring this power

But what’s done is done

[river surge]

Maya unlike many characters in the lore had a super influence

[hazy veldt]

so?

[river surge]

From a scientist from pre collapse

Yeah but Maya is really insane

[hazy veldt]

So did and was clovis but he got reanimated into a robot and then got off-switched

[river surge]

Clovis is even more insane

[hard sigil]

using a paracausal artefact created in the death of another god

[hazy veldt]

Yeah this unbalanced af I’m not gonna lie

[hard sigil]

she's nothing without the echo of command, so it's good for us that it disagrees with her

if it continues down this road she will lose control of it entirely and get got by the vex

[hazy veldt]

iirc her echo is echo of noesis

[hard sigil]

it's the Qugu

[river surge]

Qugu

Yeah

[hazy veldt]

Oh qugu yeah

[hard sigil]

specifically Warden Te'Qal

[hazy veldt]

also there eramis is somewhere god knows where in space

[hard sigil]

she's heading back to Riis

[river surge]

Riis

[hazy veldt]

Allegedly coming back to riis yeah

To undo whirlwind

[hard sigil]

it's probably the best ending she could've got. Hating us SO much that she just leaves

[hazy veldt]

Because apparently echo of riis can do that

[hard sigil]

well it controls ether

which is native to Riis

it won't fix the planet but it'll make it habitable again

[hazy veldt]

Their atmosphere was made of it

That’s why eliksni didn’t have to eat or drink they were practically living off air

[trim grotto]

quwugu

[river surge]

Quwugu

[hazy veldt]

[trim grotto]

Well, they did have to do both of those things too.

[hazy veldt]

as an exotic form of entertainment?

[hard sigil]

as sustenance. Ether is necessary for survival and healthy growth but they still need like. nutrients

[hazy veldt]

oh I see

[river surge]

Also the echo of the navigator

What does it do

Cause I have never understood that

[hazy veldt]

yeah we don’t talk about that one

[hazy veldt]

well it yaps

[hard sigil]

tells you what direction north is

[river surge]

Wow

Wooow

No powers

Just yapping

[hard sigil]

yeah they didn't actually really elaborate on what it does

[river surge]

Oryx in my head

Wow

[hard sigil]

it just like. was Oryx

[hazy veldt]

mind probably top 5 strongest beings in the universe pre-collapse

[river surge]

Oryx was a chad

[trim grotto]

I wouldn't strictly say that the Echoes had to do something. They were fragments of power infused with memories. This one's "ability" might simply have been taking on a personality from a memory.

[hazy veldt]

turned into echo
power of diplomacy

[hard sigil]

yeah but the other Echoes have personality too

[hazy veldt]

All of them are sentient with personalities

[hard sigil]

the echo of command talks to Maya

[hazy veldt]

Echo of riis was choosing

Echo of command talked to maya yeah

[river surge]

Making her lose her mind

[trim grotto]

True, but it didn't take on the ideals of a specific person.

The Echo of Navigation became Oryx in some sense.

[hazy veldt]

Well it’s capable of disagreeing

So it does have some personality

[trim grotto]

Yes, their sentience is not in question.

[river surge]

Navigator, Navigating, our Navigator

The Navigator

Oryx

Aurash

Auryx

[slim girder]

It's not making her lose her mind. That's all her.

The echo is just not happy with her

[hazy veldt]

Yeah her insanity is her only redeeming quality so far

[hard sigil]

Te'Qal watching Maya kill a fourth dimensional being

[slim girder]

Maya saw it's power and used it. The being inside however did speak to her and when she killed III even they were just like "what tf have you done"

[hazy veldt]

All because III said “I can’t do that because I quite literally can’t do that”

[river surge]

Maya dosent know that The Nine can only alter the future but not the past

She basically went with that idea that The Nine can interact with time and interact with both past, present and future

[slim girder]

She claims it's just a rule they won't break

"You are a being who breaks all rules, why are you afraid of breaking this one"

[river surge]

Mhm

I mean I would be in that delusion too if I didnt know shit

[slim girder]

Think it's also worth noting the nine as far as I know can't actually fight back. So Maya was essentially interrogating III rocking them back and forth trying to make them do what she wanted.
Then at the end she simply used her power to instead make them go into the 3rd dimension killing themselves.

It's like making a fly go right into a bug zapper

[lofty badge]

Any theories on hostile cabal in red legion armor we still see around the system?

red legion remnants that somehow still keep fighting?

[sick yew]

Yes

That or theyre just gangs of Cabal that remain wearing the red legion colors but just do their own stick

[lofty badge]

yeah that makes the most sense, since makes sense not all hostile Cabal wanna bow to the Imperium either

cause they likly go "wtf you lead by a human?"

• Cabal cloning is a thing both among shadow legion remnants and the imperium

so why not red legion too

[sick yew]

Well theres the ex Red Legion aka warband cabal
Theres the Shadow Legion
Theres the Imperium fellas
And there are those Cabal loyal to Caiatl

[lofty badge]

aye

i kinda ask just cause its fun to sometime make up stories in your head when fighting like red legion cabal as to why they there and what they up too

[sick yew]

mhm

[slim girder]

Bit crazy to think about how the factions changed in D2
3 new enemy cabal factions, 2 new enemy fallen houses, the scorn and then finally the dread.

[hard sigil]

some might call them..... renegades

[sick yew]

Lightbearing Hive

Vex with pants

[slim girder]

Oh yeah the lucent brood lol

[hard sigil]

loadbearing hive

[river surge]

Tank bearing hive

[hard sigil]

I could stretch that into a sword logic pyramid joke but I won't

[hazy veldt]

so after listening to it

it actually adds up

most important bit is about "truth under luna" is there is no way they added it for funsies

of course one could say

that "shadows and whispers" are about new taken god but thats just boring

especially when all signs are pointing towards nezarec

[hard sigil]

I don't think it's nezzy

he comes in dreams and spaces of altered consciousness

[hazy veldt]

not really

he can influence anybody at any point

briar suffered a psychotic episode in broad daylight

its just his influence is strongest in dreams

as a darkness entity he couldve been attracted by taken experimentation

[hallow horizon]

I think I've been confusing Nezarac and Rhulk as the same person and now I don't remember which has done what oh no

[slim girder]

Rhulk. Tall and handsome dude in savathuns throne world.
Nezarec. Fat baby who is the king of nightmares

https://tenor.com/view/kisse-papa-roland-goe-goedulf-987-gif-27633889

^^^^
Rhulk

[hallow horizon]

What about the backgrounds? Was Rhulk the one who got thrown in the pit or whatever place that was

[slim girder]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-2-root-of-nightmares-lightfall-disciple-the-witness-gif-15714594593320992912

^^^^^
Nezarec

[meager coral]

Nezarec led the collapse and was the owner of the Lunar pyramid, he’s responsible for nightmares, the haunting of Neomuni citizens, his corpse was harvested by The eliksni and used as powerful artifacts, and his distilled darkness was used to cure Osiris. Nezerac was killed by savathun before being resurrected when the traveller blasted the witnesses ship.

Rhulk was the one from a wild/city society who was kicked into the abyss by his parents and turned the device that took power from his homeworlds twin suns into itself genociding the planet, ripped a rib out of the leviathan and took Xita into his pyramid to produce worms and power the upended. Rhulk was trapped in the pyramid by savathun but not killed until we hunt him down

[hallow horizon]

Thank you

Do we know stuff about Nezarecs background?

[slim girder]

Not really. Very little is known about him generally aside from the members that make up the cultists of nezarec

It's believed he has some attachments to the Psion species though

[hallow horizon]

Interesting

Thank you for this

[hazy veldt]

he could be made by the witness and i actually have a theory about it

its been told that world we live in is made of light, something physical

but there is another world beyond ours, world of consciousness, eris stated that collective meta consciousness exists within it, using info we found in lightfall, strand is main building block of this another world

this another world is effectively made of darkness, also its the world where witness hid its minds i think

actually let me pull this

precursors describe it as "sea of memory"

[hard sigil]

sounds like they're describing the astral plane

sea of screams

[hazy veldt]

maybe when first life began to rise, it gave birth to fear and other emotions

but when witness formed and started its chase after traveler, all the terror it had made

created an imbalance within this sea, fear had become a little too strong to the point of getting conscious

kind of like a chaos god from 40k

and later witness took notice of it and offered it physical vessel in exchange or service

it actually makes sense how he is immortal

because he is not physical being at all

[hard sigil]

eh it's an interesting thought experiment and might be partially plausible, considering the chimeral eyes that Nezarec's head has

but we do know he was a physical being first. he only became a psychic spirit due to his decapitation. he was a head on life support in a box for a long time

[hazy veldt]

nuh uh

when we freed dissenters in excision we had to give ourselves to darkness

you could call it astral plane

mindscape etc

[hazy veldt]

uh where has this been stated

guy was space-boogeyman all along

in death he was actually the weakest

[hard sigil]

we at least know he had a physical body before becoming a disciple due to the flavour text of Nezarec's Whisper

he is an immense psychic presence, strong enough to be felt VERY far, even by beings like humans who aren't especially psychically gifted

but there's no reason to believe he was a purely psychic being

it's just as believable, if not more, to say that he had a body

Created from Rhulk’s blueprint, Nezarec was the first Tormentor from which all others owe their lineage. Nezarec relishes in sowing fear and pain, feeding off the terror of sentient beings. He can induce nightmares across entire worlds.
you could take this as him being either created or altered using Rhulks DNA, but we really just don't have a definitive answer

if you ask me he was simply a very potent psychic alien who had enough of a presence to form cults not only among psions, but also pre-golden age humanity, who was then found by the witness, who enhanced his physicality with Rhulks DNA, leading to his designation as Prime Tormentor and strange proportions

[hazy veldt]

we could say that his vessel was designed after rhulks with some tweaks, and of course he had been given body before he was initiated into disciple-hood

[hazy veldt]

idk this just sounds boring

for a being of his caliber

like oh he's just some overpowered alien

[hard sigil]

I do like the idea of him being created out of pure fear of the witness but there's no precedent for anything like that

[hazy veldt]

thats why its a theory

[hard sigil]

I mean it's the same explanation for 90% of the villains

Rhulk is also just an overpowered alien

[hazy veldt]

not fear of witness in particular but fear in general, witness just tipped the scale a little too much by its actions

[hazy veldt]

sure but i have no complains on behalf of rhulk

top 5 fictional character if u ask me

daddy issues and groomed allegations couldnt bother me

[naive iron]

I just had quite a big enlightenment about the lore and the origins of The Nine.
Taken directly from the Book of Unveiling: Page T=0; during the fight between The Gardener and The Winnower:

"Our trampling feet made waves in the garden, which were the fluctuations around which the infant universes coalesced their first structures. The dilaton field yawned beneath existence. Symmetries snapped like glass. Like creases, flaws in space-time collected filaments of dark matter that inhaled and kindled the first galaxies of suns."

This exact paragraph describes the creation of The Ascendant Plane and The Nine. The creases and flaws in space-time are the pockets of The Ascendant Plane. And the collection of filaments of dark-matter is the origins of The Nine. One of those filaments formed into what we now know as The Nine and a billion gazillion more of those consciousnesses within just our galaxy (the Milkyway). As stated before, all celestial bodies have some sort of consciousness resembling The Nine, because they all have a gravitational pull and orbit that attracts dark matter into an orbiting cluster.

Hence the connection between The Nine and The AP.

[river surge]

Makes sense

The Winnower and The Gardener are basically the creators of this universe afterall

[sick yew]

Unveiling do be implying that
One could reasonably doubt its accuracy but then again I don't think we have too many other sources at all

[river surge]

Meh

I still think Unveiling had accuracy but not the in the way its interpreted

More realistic than fantasy

Although its full of metaphors

[sick yew]

It could for all intends and purposes be a fanfiction or propaganda piece written by the Witness

[river surge]

Was it actually written by The Witness tho

Cause if thats the case then I will change my way of perspective regarding it

[sick yew]

Considering that its the Witness who gave it to us thats the most likely

[river surge]

Oh

So then its most likely propaganda or fanfiction

[sick yew]

Back in Shadowkeep the entity back then known as "the voice in the darkness" whom we now know as the Witness gave us unveiling or rather Eris

[river surge]

See thats the thing

It always depends on who wrote it

Cause if The Witness wrote it

Then it fully explains why its all metaphors and facfiction

[sick yew]

We dont know for certain whether the Witness wrote it and even if it did how much of it is based on knowledge it had or if it was just an agenda piece

But its very possible, likely even

[river surge]

I mean who would know abt The Winnower or The Gardener back then rather than the Witness itself

That was the moment they debuted basically

Oryx

[sick yew]

The possibility is that the Winnower directly relayed Unveiling to the Witness as it happened
Alternatively either the Winnower or the Witness could have drastically influenced the tale

[river surge]

Fair

We havent seen any interactions with The Winnower and The Witness at all

Tho

[sick yew]

That doesn't mean much

The Witness talks of the Winnower and its will in Salvationd Edge

So theres that

[river surge]

Even tho The Winnower hated The Witness with passion

[blazing wasp]

Wouldn't say with passion

Just more of a "yeah this one's bit of a bitch"

[ember storm]

They made one spiteful comment once

“Beings who deserve no thought; they bore me”

[blazing wasp]

ye

i mean its funny that the winnower essentially called the witness a bitch but its nothing hateful

[hallow horizon]

so are the winnower and gardener the most powerful being in the lore or? I'd assume so

[blazing wasp]

maybe, we rarely see them actually demonstrate that

we dont know the extent of the gardeners strength and the winnower doesnt exactly do shit.

[hallow horizon]

why not? do they just not give a shit

also to me the gardener and winnower are both basically just names lol, no clue what they do, where they are or what they look like

should I know?

[blazing wasp]

creators of the universe

[blazing wasp]

well the gardener is a traveler so theres that

[hallow horizon]

wait what

[blazing wasp]

and the winnower is so confident in its eventual victory it wont do jackshit ever

[blazing wasp]

worth adding that unveiling is canonically questioned in its validity

[hallow horizon]

like our traveler or something else

[blazing wasp]

we can say with very high confidence the winnower and gardener exists

only one traveler

and its that traveler

[hallow horizon]

oh

damn

then what's the veil?

[blazing wasp]

also theyre like, really really alien

the winnower appears to think in a somewhat... understandable way

[hallow horizon]

other than darkness stuff

[blazing wasp]

but the gardener? real fucking doozy, no goddamn idea, nobody understands it

the traveler sure as shit doesnt understand us

[blazing wasp]

id answer if i knew properly, leave that part to mael or something

somebody*

[hallow horizon]

alr thanks still

[queen swallow]

Something something Conway's game of life but with flowers?

[blazing wasp]

oh god its been lurking

im always mildly terrified of this lore channel cause i know damn well my lore knowledge has gaps and flaws in it, and mael may be right around the corner to call me an idiot and reduce me to a sobbing mess

[hallow horizon]

also what does that mean?

somewhat understandable way

wait so the veil is winnower?

[trim grotto]

I'd have some minor points to address or add but I'm on my lunch break and on my phone so I'm not able to be as eloquent or sourcey as usual
So I shall return to lurking and lunching

[hallow horizon]

looking at destinypedia

[trim grotto]

I instantly return from lurking to add a very big be careful with Dpedia flag

Anywho bye again

https://tenor.com/view/dog-zlarb-gone-disappear-gif-15668282

[blazing wasp]

enjoy lunch

[hallow horizon]

oh why?

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-doge-dog-appear-doge-apear-apear-gif-21623218

[hallow horizon]

also why does traveler have an implied gender? wtf

[trim grotto]

Once cussed out Seth Dickinson after he tried to correct them on a definition he defined, for example

Also the gender thing is more of a perception thing don't overthink it

https://tenor.com/view/dog-zlarb-gone-disappear-gif-15668282

[hallow horizon]

okay wtf

[blazing wasp]

gender thing is based on some lore tabs where someone dreamt of the traveler who took the form of a female wolf, something along those lines

might be more to it but thats at least where it originated from

nothing thats like, crucial lore

could very much mean nothing

[dim minnow]

The Veil is heavily implied to be a missing piece of the Traveler (aka the Gardener)

It is basically the Darkness equivalent to the Traveler as well

It functions as a sort of cosmic collective consciousness

Of course, there are theories that the Gardener and Winnower were once one being that split apart and thus the Veil could be the Winnower though I do not necessarily agree with that one

[hallow horizon]

wait but aren't they specifically supposed to be separate? wasn't the final shape about somehow linking them together

[dim minnow]

The Final Shape is a calcification of the universe

The Witness just needed to form a link between the Traveler and Veil so it could get into the Pale Heart so it could enact it

After all, Darkness to shape a thought, Light to make it into reality

[shy remnant]

I’ve been having this crazy thought in my heads that the nine are like proto travelers

[hard sigil]

there's no real indication for that

they're two very different forms

[eager trout]

I wonder if the Traveler is massive enough to have a Nine-like being form on it🤔

[slow berry]

It doesn't have a gravitational pull I thought

[hollow drum]

why’s the praxic vault made of pyramid architecture

[slim girder]

It's not about size. The traveler isn't a planet.

[slim girder]

Just a placeholder really for a Jedi ish temple.
Don't pay much attention to it

[dim minnow]

the Praxics find these structures and claim them as their own

[slim girder]

Best case scenario the praxic just used the existing infrastructure

[dim minnow]

they even infuse their Light into it

[river surge]

They just simply find them and use them as their vaults

[river surge]

Nah it dosent have gravitational pull, also its made out of material that was stated to be part of the creation of the universe itself

Electroweak something something

Neutronium and other rare materials

Also the inside taste vanilla

[trim grotto]

electro weak? no, silly, electro strong

[dim minnow]

smells like vanilla

[river surge]

[dim minnow]

it's actually pretty funny that Bungie just casually confirmed that Fenchurch was not lying like that

[river surge]

Smells sorry

I just woke up

[dim minnow]

I have to send my psionic warriors to seal you within the Earth for that one

[river surge]

Oztot?

[fluid peak]

not if i lock you inside a pyramid on the moon first

[river surge]

Legend of the Acrius

Acrius was the first Cabal Emperor right?

[slim girder]

Yes

Seems in order to become emperor you must do something regarding a sun of sorts.
Destroying it or taking it

Ghaul attempted to destroy our sun so if he had succeeded that would've made him emperor

[river surge]

Crazy

[slim girder]

Rite of passage for the cabal emperor.
Send a sun into a supernova

[slim girder]

So I was going through some lore on the dungeon and I think I figured out what thorn is actually made of material wise since those scientists who studied it couldn't indentify what it was made of even though others had made replicas.
Hadium is a hive material that can store light and we used it in TTK back in D1 to make exotic swords.
In the lore for the dungeon this new dredgen Thahaaz talks about Dredgen Sere calling up a bubble of shadow that was "As dense as osmium"
So maybe thorn is made from a combination of hadium and osmium metal.
Hadium for the light feasting capabilities and osmium due to it being of hive nature due to the hive gods being from the "Osmium Dynasty"

Osmium generally seems to share the same value to the hive as things like Gold or diamonds do to us.
We call them precious metals and have used them in many ways of symbolism

[river surge]

Osmium kingdom, Osmium king

Osmium for them was like richest resource

I think

[slim girder]

Exactly. As I said they treat it similarly to how us humans treat gold, diamonds or other precious metals.

It's a very precious metal to the hive so my theory is that through osmium as well as hadium, replica thorns are made.

[river surge]

Thorn is a weapon of sorrow

Its actually interesting

[ember storm]

well none of the thorns in existence are

they're just copies with basic corrosive payloads

[eager trout]

I finally realized that the reason we had to channel the Traveler's Light through Ghost to destroy the Witness is because Ghosts resurrect people without their memories, so we had to "forget" the Witness.

[river surge]

Wasnt it the fact that we channeled pure light

So that we destroy it forever

[blazing wasp]

I think that's overthinking it

The forget part is to give people a fresh slate

I'm p sure it was just a "fuck you" beam after we exposed it by breaking the dissenters

[quasi ferry]

Need people on the desert perpetual, I have a fireteam up now if people can join please thank you

[blazing wasp]

;lfg

[candid inlet]

Looking for more players?
Check out #looking-for-group for links to our LFG channels, and further resources including:

• Fireteam Finder (in-game LFG, available in the Roster tab or when launching an activity)
• Destiny 2 LFG Discord
• Renegades LFG Discord (Requires Renegades DLC)
• D2Checkpoint
• Reddit's r/Fireteam
• Reddit's r/DestinySherpa

[blazing wasp]

Make sure to let people know you're new

I take it you are new to D2 if you're using LFG here

[eager trout]

Yeah, but through our Ghost, which seems kinda unnecessary unless Guardians just have a hard limit on being unable to do that

[blazing wasp]

Ghost was probably used as a lens

[river surge]

So

With Savathun and VI wanting to escape the "universe"

Aka the game

The Winnower and The Gardener are coming back for sureee

I 100% believe they wouldnt allow beings to become gods

And when I mean gods I mean real gods with the power to reshape the universe at will

[lofty badge]

Think Yirix and Otzot and their Psion Enclave are still controlling the shadow legion and Red legion remnants? And think they remain not aligned with the Imperium?

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah, it's just that bungie has as of now abandoned this plotline

The pieces are set and we KNOW who's controlling the shadow legion, just not the whys

But rn its Imperium time

[coral glen]

Did Savathun or Xivu Arath have any notable children like Oryx had crota

[jagged badge]

Dûl Incaru, the Shattered Throne boss, Savathûn’s daughter, is the only one who springs to mind tbh

Oh, Malok

He was somewhat important at some point in Destiny 1 I believe

[hard sigil]

I don't think Xivu even has kids

[slim girder]

Tried to take the mantle of taken king after Oryxs death.

[shy remnant]

I forgot did we grab maloks head at some point during season of the witch?

kinda disrespectful

killing him was also disrespectful

[shy remnant]

The potential psions

[trim grotto]

She does, but very few are named. I'll check HQ's lineage charts later.

[coral glen]

What determines if a acolyte evolves into a knight or wizard?

[dim minnow]

murder

[coral glen]

I mean like what decides if they become what one i know they grow through causing death but in the hive life cycle they become one or the other im just wondering if its random or if something determines it

[dim minnow]

maybe they choose what morph they want to take

[split aurora]

Question: do we know where the echo of riis is currently. I know spider has dialogue in renegades but where did we last see it

[dim minnow]

it's with Eramis, who left Sol

that's all we know

[split aurora]

Thank you

[quiet yacht]

Hey, is the dreaming city curse still active?

[dim minnow]

yes

[hallow horizon]

Isn't it supposed to be active forever

[river surge]

Not if u break it

[hallow horizon]

How we gonna go that tho

[river surge]

Who knows

maybe they have something in plan

Shattered Cycle is a type of name regarding The Dreaming City

But its gonna be about VI

[hard sigil]

that's if shattered cycle is about the dreaming city

[river surge]

Yeah

[slim girder]

Really depends what cycle is being shattered.

We are heading to Chicago soon so shattered cycle could have something to do with that.

And we have confirmation from the bungie narrative lead that VI is the alchemist so the expansion with the same name might be the one where we actually bind them

[fringe sundial]

i dont think we'll resolve VI that quickly

they definitely seem like an end-of-saga villain

[slim girder]

One of the nine is not going to take a whole saga to deal with I can say that much

[fringe sundial]

VI is the most outspoken enemy of humanity of the nine

i believe if we were to bind an outer orbit first it'd be VII

cause uranus has never been relevant in destiny

[slim girder]

All the outer orbits are. We only know what VI is doing.
But the others are still forming plans like VIII is causing disruptions on Neptune and worrying the neomuni in the cloudark

All outer orbits are on the side of black holes or opening tears of sorts to escape their dependence on the existence of others

IV based on the lore seems to be the one we could be binding first since they gave us coordinates that point directly to Chicago.

Adams and Wabash specifically

"The Labyrinth" as they call it

[hard sigil]

sculking through the subway tunnels will be fun

I wonder if they'll make it a nether-like activity where you take branching paths

[slim girder]

Could definitely be like that.
Or a rogue like activity

[hard sigil]

Destiny 2 Duviri update inbound

i know the body we're looking for is most likely someone we've never heard of

but I really don't know who it could be

[slim girder]

Lodi says binding them could mean putting them in bodies but I also wouldn't rule out the possibility that objects could house them as well.
IV is giving us coordinates so obviously that place has significance to the nine as a whole it seems.

The way it talks is like if you were bringing a key to a specific place.

[hard sigil]

I'm pretty sure he did specifically say we'd be looking for someone

and when he thinks about it he gets a similar feeling to channelling III, who's dead

[slim girder]

Lodi said something
He said something has been trying to reach out to him

And when he does channel them his vision is sideways and that he's clawing to get out or something

[hard sigil]

with a bunch of extra organs and whatnot

`He panics and bolts into the dark on all fours, all sixes, his many clawed paws ignoring the pull of gravity.

Language is gone. It is molten lava—it is a stretch of sandstone and the screech of apes and the hiss of natural gas. He opens both sets of jaws and cries whale song in search of meaning. He is alive, but he is wrong—he is Canidae Equidae Mantodea Acroporidae, the heaving shadow of every living creature. He's supposed to be somewhere else.

home

i need to go home

Lodi startles awake. He feels for each of his limbs, the planes of his own face, and gasps for air. A monster is trying to talk to him.`

actually I'm not sure if this is related it sounds more like something to do with Earth being messed up

[slim girder]

Yeah all of this is very vague.
Lodi is still going through a lot of the things an emissary does and neither him or us really understand it yet.
Though one thing I can gleam from this is that these are the messages that are giving him hints on where you go.

The nine are basically just throwing everything at him to get a single message across

[hard sigil]

"you're a weird lizard now go to Chicago already"

[slim girder]

They don't fully understand how to properly say something given how alien they are so instead just throw crap at the emissary to get the message across.
On the other side though VI despite wanting to escape into ascendant plane and use sword logic doesn't actually even understand death as a concept

It's like if you tried saying something in a different language but you had absolutely no clue how to say it.

[lofty badge]

Can the Tharsis reformationen vex create new Independent Vex as they want?

[slim girder]

Possibly. They have radiolaria supplies stored in cubes.

I'm sure they also know how to repair themselves so could probably create more of themselves

[lofty badge]

bet

[lofty badge]

does this mean some Cabal worships the same stuff as the Psions and thus is why some seemingly willingly serve Pison lead factions outside Psionic enslavement?

[hazy veldt]

I might have a theory that would explain the veil

or its purpose if it can be called purpose

taking into account existence of sea of memory, which isnt really a debate anymore regarding how many hints we've had to its existence

within which "collective meta consciousness" resides

not really clear either collective consciousness IS the sea or it just floats within it

we do know that this consciousness is built of strand

that is if i understand strand correctly

so, i think that the veil is a conduit/link between physical realm and the cognitive one

or a wormhole whatever

i think so because, first of all it practically shits strand, second of all because of interactions ishtar collective had with veil

afaik everyone who tried to make contact with veil instantly got braindead

every exo who tried, got zeroed

they didnt die because their cells bursted or anything but because their brains/whatever exos have simply didnt have processing power to grasp what lies beyond the veil

going back to sea analogy, id say that winnower isnt a being within this sea, but rather its the bottom of the sea

hence why hive call it "the deep"

[river surge]

We are cooking here

I love this

[hazy veldt]

also lowk a stretch but analogy with sea kind of lines up with veil looking like a jellyfish lmao

also after looking at it

one half is full, other one is transparent, full one looks like a body of water reflecting lights within in a weird way

btw precursors understood nature of light fully, only after finding the veil, almost as if they "communed with the deep" to gain this knowledge and used veil as a communication device of sorts

could also explain how it amplified nezarec's telepathic abilities

yeah i think im done here

I also have a schizo theory advancing from that one but nobody ready for this conversation

[river surge]

Also noted that the

Um

Brenches represent the fact that it was once connected to The Traveler

Also it represents the infinity symbol if u connect them together

[hazy veldt]

idk about that but they are hugging something spherical

[river surge]

• light and darkness

[hazy veldt]

and branches are brighter

[river surge]

And the center being prismatic

Also the Veil is probably made out of something older than the universe itself

The same way The Traveler

Is

[slim girder]

I wish Hawthorne would come back into the story.
I think she and Bael would have a pretty interesting conversation because all the way back in vanilla she definitely had a distaste for guardians.
Even made it a point to ikora that guardians had forgotten that the civilians had lived without the light all their lives. She is different now sure but still an interesting thing to think about

Old man devrims gotten more screen time and lore cards than her even

[lofty badge]

true and it would be cool

[hazy veldt]

Just thought about what nezarec would be capable of, if he actually had power over light and guardians didn’t kill him instantly after he popped out

Prior to collapse he could just pull a vecna on a scion whenever he wished so but I think psions were more endangered against nezarec than other species because of their profound telepathic abilities

[hazy veldt]

But what if he could just conjure up nightmares physically using the light

No dreams no hallucinations just deadass ghaul dropping on your head

[lofty badge]

are the remnants of House Salvation just darkness/witness Cultists and Outlaws?

[nova knoll]

What’s the website the has all the Destiny lore stuff in it? I am tasked with compiling all the stuff and breaking it down for a friend group.

Is it ordered Chronologically

[blazing wasp]

ishtar collective

ok sorry all the stuff?

or like, the basics? up to a certain timestamp maybe

[nova knoll]

Basically I need enough to break down the general history directly tied to the Guardian regarding who/what they are. With explaining their abilities, how strong they are, and their enemies.

[blazing wasp]

ah yeah thats a easier task

id recommend ishtar collective, and byf's megavideo of everything from the start up until (not including) the final shape

[nova knoll]

Yeah but I also need the sources.

[blazing wasp]

ishtar collective is literally just a collection of destinys actual lore tabs

[nova knoll]

Can’t quote a guy quoting a guy

Is why the videos - while good - need the main stuff

[blazing wasp]

well, ishtar is kinda your best shot then

maybe your only shot.

[nova knoll]

So was asking if it was organized chronologically or if it is sporadic

[blazing wasp]

by the timeline in universe? no

that would be a herculean task for the ishtar collective to do

by release? yea prob, lemme check

sure is

[queen swallow]

It has a chronological timeline but it's just short notes of events that happened

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/timeline/

[jagged badge]

It seems to cite sources that it has on the site though

[queen swallow]

For the timeline? Why wouldn't it? The things it links to are themselves sourced from the game or from relevant external content (i.e. the physical grimoire)

[hazy veldt]

just came to me that during the making on the witness, precursors used veil exactly as a link between physical realm and sea of memory so they could hide their minds in there, instead of just dying

it couldnt have been accomplished without veil, which further reinforces my theory about its purpose

[hallow horizon]

Is the veil smaller than the traveler?

That's what it seemed like to me during lightfall

[hazy veldt]

its hundreds of times smaller

ok maybe not hundreds but significantly smaller

[hard sigil]

well the size of the traveller is inconsistent at best

it goes from being about the same diameter as the city to being moon sized depending on the image and angle

[fluid peak]

the traveller adjusts its physical dimensions at will iirc

[hazy veldt]

dont know about that but its more than believable

knowing what that orb is capable of

[hallow horizon]

Oh that explains how they're supposed to fit together

[hard sigil]

that's only a theory anyway

[fluid peak]

It's the most plausible explanation other than "bungie purposefully keep changing how big the traveller is for cinematics because it looks cooler"

[frigid sparrow]

why that look like fear inoculum

[river surge]

It was already more than stated that it COULDNT because it couldnt actually

And also

I really like ur theory of The Veil being a sea of minds

and the deep is basically the point where The Winnower is the connector to urself with that sea

I would like to add the fact that Oryx when he used the Tablets of Ruin and he communed with The Deep

The Winnower spoke with him in a whisper tone

[eager trout]

Sounds more to me like the Veil is the connector

And the Witness species used it to access the sea and become one

[river surge]

Yeah sorry

I misinterpreted

The Veil is the connector to the sea

[lofty cape]

What is the most recent Seraph lore? more details the marrier

[jagged badge]

I can’t really imagine there’s been anything since Season of the Seraph

[lofty cape]

According to the wiki ash and iron

[jagged badge]

The only hit on Ishtar is that the seasonal ornament set is named “Vigilant Seraph”

Not any lore

[lofty cape]

Hmm maybe the wiki is wrong then

it does say mentioned only tbf

[queen swallow]

Are you referring to Destinypedia when you say “wiki”?

Because Ishtar is much better for that, though it’s a little less… accessible? than a wiki-like is

[fluid peak]

Destinypedia is great for some stuff and.. not great for others

As with anything on the internet take it with a really big grain of salt

[ember storm]

I’m like 99% sure they got chatgpt pages now

Tlaloc starts out as an average Scout Rifle with no unique properties. It is perfectly serviceable, but doesn't have much utility otherwise. However, given enough time, for the moment the player's Super is fully charged, Tlaloc's exotic perk, Overflow, starts to kick in.
Using this strategy, the weapon becomes a formidable killer of both minions of the Darkness and other Guardians in the Crucible.

[modern lodge]

Holy word soup

[frigid sparrow]

looking at the page history this was the kinda language used since 2018

[ember storm]

Can’t believe they discovered time travel to use chatgpt to generate the tlaloc page

[frigid sparrow]

plus it's a d1 gun so people probably just don't give enough of a shit to edit it into something more formal

[fringe zenith]

Tlaloc n Self Rez ❤️

[river surge]

Any clues on what Allison meant when she said

The Nine are the "Rules"

Is it related to the flower game

The rules The Gardener made so The Winnower never chose the meta again

And so he could always win

Or something different

[trim grotto]

If we're going by Unveiling, the new rule is suggested to be Paracausality.

[river surge]

Oh

I mean obviously yeah

But any clues on The Nine

[slim girder]

Given IIIs death has caused earth to change in very strange ways i'd say the nine being "Rules" pertains to how physics on those planets work

Instead of water being evaporated and dropping back down as rain we instead get shards of iron

The Andes turning to copper and pockets of oxygen changing to argon gas

[fringe zenith]

Watched about 20m of conways GoL truly amazing how it creates, resets, & stalemates

The flower game is essentially choosing any 7 of the 9 cells results in a final shape right? Or is there more im missing for starting the game?

Really it seems like the gardener had a problem with constantly playing the game huh

And how is it that conways GoL has infinite possibilities but the flower game doesnt using the same set of rules, maybe the 7 starters is the reason it always results in the same shape?

[solid oriole]

Do we know if Entry 3 from Sintering comes before the lore on Shrewd Survivor Gloves. I believe it’s the case but Ishtar collective hasn’t fully uploaded everything

[trim grotto]

Aye, that's because Ishtar pulls from the API, so you'd be waiting for the info to be made available that way.

[trim grotto]

The shape isn't the issue, per se, but the pattern. But, no.

[fringe zenith]

The pattern being creation, death and repeat?

[trim grotto]

The pattern corrected the errant flower effortlessly. The great flow went on unchanged.

The gardener got up and brushed their knees. "Every game we play, this one pattern consumes all the others. Wipes out every interesting development. A stupid, boring exploit that cuts off entire possibility spaces from ever arising. There's so much that we'll never get to see because of this… pest."```

If we take Unveiling as somewhat literal, we'd consider this pattern to be the Vex.

They who change all to be them. Convert all life, all matter, into Vex.

There will be nothing but Vex in an infinite span of the universe, given enough time...

Unless a new rule of paracausality is put into play.

[fringe zenith]

Woah thats sick thanks for the insight

[trim grotto]

[fringe zenith]

Is there a set definition of paracausality in like "rule" form or is it just undefined and "magic"

Or wait because both sides inserted themselves into the game they became the rule of paracausality meaning literally whoever wins the battle controls the outcome?

[ember storm]

They could also just shoot you or telefrag you

Turning people into puddles is not off the table

[trim grotto]

"A special new rule. Something to…" The gardener threw up their hands in exasperation. "I don't know. To reward those who make space for new complexity. A power that helps those who make strength from heterodoxy, and who steer the game away from gridlock. Something to ensure there's always someone building something new. It'll have to be separate from the rest of the rules, running in parallel, so it can't be compromised. And we'll have to be very careful, so it doesn't disrupt the whole game…"
In this, as the Gardener would have it, it is to be a carefully used tool that can only be provided by a special few. Inaccessible to most, parallel to physics. Not causality, but parallel causality.

We could consider the Traveler to be an example of this rule in motion. It provided terraformation and uplifting to worlds, and those worlds grew to know paracausality, even to manipulate it in some ways, like with the Sacred Splicers of the Eliksni.

But then, additionally, the Gardener and Winnower made themselves into rules of the game as well.

I looked at the gardener.

I looked at my hands.

I discovered the first knife.```
And they fought. And when they fought, their Garden of possibility was destroyed, and the universes - actual existence, not mere concepts of pre-existence - were formed.

[river surge]

Eclipse

[trim grotto]

Eclipse is something I still need to learn about. But as far as the rule goes, it was referring to paracausality. A parallel rule to physics.

[river surge]

Eclipse is anti causal

it basically nullifies both light and darkness and kills the user + the ghost on sight

[fringe zenith]

Shaxx said it best, THIS IS AMAZING

[trim grotto]

How delightful.

I imagine that it'd be something the Winnower would have an eye on. Darkness might be the other side of the coin to Light, but it is still paracausality at the end of the day - still that new rule.

[river surge]

Yeah

VI gave Bael the Nightfall Station which was powered by this Eclipse energy

if u watched the cutscene

u can literally see that every guardian + in the vecinity of Tharsis got killed

except Eido

because it only works on paracausal things

Also Premier Lume seems to be actually using it

[fringe zenith]

I reckon we'll come full circle and the final battle will be against the Vex before we lose and Destiny 2 shuts down 😭

[river surge]

but its very volatile

[river surge]

• ghost forgot to mention

[ember storm]

What if u shoot it with a big gun

Really big gun

Some kind of

War satellites

[river surge]

[ember storm]

Man the golden age had so many cool things if only there was something that wouldn’t die of old age that could manage them all

[river surge]

Actually

Golden Age very much had nukes capable of destroying planets

[ember storm]

has clovis done anything since seraph

[river surge]

Deep Stone Crypt proves that

[ember storm]

eh

[blazing wasp]

it was going to nuke the surface of a moon

[ember storm]

that was just the fact that the station itself served as the payload

containing multiple nukes

also europa is just ice

[river surge]

Why did I always thought he was going to nuke the whole planet

moon

sorry

[slim elk]

Don't forget the undisclosed paracausal weapon that Elsie was going to use on Europa

[river surge]

Europa is a moon

[ember storm]

it was just to kill off the entirety of eventide and destroy the DSC

[trim grotto]

You can't just blow a hole in the surface of Mars Europa

[ember storm]

it was a security measure nothing too crazy

[blazing wasp]

glassing the surface of something is way, way easier than exploding the entire thing up

modern day humanity cant even blow up our moon

[fringe zenith]

she better find some time to explain

[trim grotto]

Just a minor Exterminatus no biggie

[ember storm]

i could

[river surge]

I could

[ember storm]

but i dont wanna

[slim elk]

Exterminatus?

Let us introduce the killsat network known as warsats

[blazing wasp]

no

[blazing wasp]

ok well youre the exception

[river surge]

I could actually

[ember storm]

actually everyone could except uke

we've been lying to you for your safety

[river surge]

Not even the moon is safe around me

[blazing wasp]

:(

[trim grotto]

It was for the Vex portal they were using to invade Europa. Clovis said no since that'd mean no more Radiolarian Fluid. He said no using an Orbital Maser to detonate an antimatter bomb she was carrying on her person.

[blazing wasp]

also that emote was terrifying given old context

[trim grotto]

She ceased to be a person.

Grandfather of the Year right there

[river surge]

Ok but dead honest

When I first did DSC

[slim elk]

Also
Eclipse energy isn't just for destroying everything
The cabal leader has a Hive worm in him that the Eclipse energy keeps neutered... but retains the benefits

[river surge]

and I was learning it

my squad told me that

We are going to stop Clovis from blowing up Europa

and I always always went with that idea

lol

[fringe zenith]

How would one even encase antimatter without causing the collapse immediately

[river surge]

Liars

[ember storm]

well it was his idea

you now face godlike judgment etc etc

but taniks is the one pressing the button

[river surge]

So they were right a bit

[fringe zenith]

Maybe the vex milk is the secret

[trim grotto]

The scale of destruction is up for debate, but it's essentially correct. Just as a preprogrammed failsafe method.

[ember storm]

i mean its not the point of the raid

nobody knew he was there to begin with

and its not even what final encounter is about

[river surge]

The raid was out for 2 years btw 😭

[ember storm]

the nukes would've literally just killed you and taniks at the end

[river surge]

the info was already released when I first learned dsc

[ember storm]

also a bunch of salvation but nobody cares about them

[trim grotto]

Humanity learned to manipulate some minor degree of paracausality. Like Elsie's magic bomb. And Icarus Station.
It could be involved.

[river surge]

Elsie Magic Bomb

Mael

Tell me

!

[trim grotto]

Aaaahhhh fine alright BUT

[fringe zenith]

[trim grotto]

I'm going to get out of bed, make a cup of tea, and turn on my computer first

[river surge]

Take your time

[trim grotto]

Because this info is hidden in Clovis's Logbooks

[river surge]

Im dead curious about Elsie

and her magic bomb

[fringe zenith]

🙂‍↕️

[slim elk]

There was also some paracausal weaponization going on at Titan

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/centrifuse

[trim grotto]

I got caught up with house stuff
uno momento

[river surge]

Just like in the Interstellar movie

The Nine uses Gravity

to interact with us

Fucking genius move from Bungie

[trim grotto]

I visited the Jacob Hardy Trust, and with Willa’s help, I secured a topological thought. An irreal artifact of the Traveler’s Light. From that mote of paracausality, I have constructed a weapon that will crash every Vex system in 2082 Volantis. When the Vex are destroyed, you will be forced to cease exo production.

If I do not survive the construction and delivery of this weapon, I ask that you share the news of my death with Ana and Willa so they can make proper goodbyes.

I do this for them. Not for you.

Pray for grace, Grandfather.

Your estranged granddaughter,
—E```

Gonna be a text wall but hey ho welcome to lore

  MISTER BRAY MISTER BRAY THIS IS HANNU THIS IS HANNU
  EMPLOYEE BRAYELSIE IS ON NONSCHEDULED EVA
  EMPLOYEE BRAYELSIE INTENT ASSESSMENT
  -Armed (synballistic weapon, coherent boson weapon, tactical mite ecome, noetic shrieker)
  -Armed (strategic weapon, APEX: antimatter demolition device)
  -Armed (strategic weapon, T-genic, effect unknown: possibly T-genic noetic weapon.)
  -Armed (personal combat architecture, custom)
  EMPLOYEE BRAYELSIE INTENDS SABOTAGE (sitex::DEEPSTONE)
  EMPLOYEE BRAYELSIE INTENDS TRANSIT, UNAUTHORIZED (sitex::GATE->2082-VOLANTIS)
  EMPLOYEE BRAYELSIE INTENDS NOETIC ATTACK (2082-VOLANTIS)

  EMPLOYEE BRAYELSIE IS IN VIOLATION OF CLOVISBRAY/CLOVISROOT/IMPERATIVES-DEEPSTONE

  Request full lethal intervention authority.

  -intervene-nonlethal()
  Error: no nonlethal interventions available (target hardened).
  Error: no persuasive interventions available (target offline and shielded).

  -hold(30)
  Holding 30 seconds local real-time.
    //Voice transcript:
“Elisabeth. I know you’re listening. This is genocide, do you understand? Destroying that gate and the resources beyond means the end of human immortality. It means the loss of uncountable trillions of human—years of life.”

“Elisabeth, this process saved you. It could have saved your father. For his sake, for the sake of your sisters, don’t do this. Don’t make me stop you.”

“Elisabeth, this is your last chance.”

“You’ve always been my favorite, Elisabeth. Please…"

  -options(intervene-lethal)
  Recommend maser strike from Hannu awareness arrays.
  Warning: damage to organic target subsystems highly probable. Survival odds are four sigma.
  Recommend immediate medical intervention.

  -prognosticate(sitex:DEEPSTONE) attacker(brayelsie)
  Total destruction of sitex:DEEPSTONE by antimatter device. Nonrecoverable.

  -intervene(lethal)
  Authorization required for lethal action against employee brayelsie.

  -pkey(clovisroot) -hashword(live-connectome: clovisroot)
  Error. Connectome hash incorrect. Either you are not clovisroot or your brain state is in an anomalous configuration. Resend.

  -pkey(clovisroot) -hashword(live-connectome: clovisroot) -corrector(dismay)
  Lethal intervention authorized. Intervening.

  Maser discharge complete.
  Target destroyed.
  Secondary antimatter detonation detected.

  Closing employee file BRAYELSIE (conditions incompatible with life).```

[river surge]

So the whole purpose of the gun

was so eliminate the Vex in 2082 system

where Clovis opened the portal on Europa

bomb*

[trim grotto]

Magic Anti Vex Bomb

[river surge]

Danggggggg

Elsie got big stuff there

[trim grotto]

Jacob Hardy, bee tee dubs, was one of the original members of, ahhh... what's it called...

it is 7AM give me a second

Ares One

The astronauts sent to meet the Traveler on Mars in that original D1 cutscene cinematic

The very beginning of the Golden Age

Jacob Hardy, Evie Calumet, Ulysses Qiao, and M. Mihaylova.

[river surge]

OMG

THEY WERE

YO

[river surge]

If Bungie goes crazy with the narrative following the The Alchemist expansion and everything

I actually want that Interstellar insane scene where our Guardian enters the 4th dimension

and we interact with the time itself

to avoid extinction

[river surge]

I just simply love how The Winnower after The Final Shape was like

"I am winning, idc what u guys are doing, u will always do what I want, u are cooked"

[slim elk]

TBF... it is right
So long as Guardians are fighting, it gets the show and popcorn

[fringe sundial]

the winnower winning doesnt really affect us

it operates on such a huge time scale

its been winning since before humanity started

[solid oriole]

do we have a way to decipher baels timeline?

[slim girder]

Use the new lore book Sintering

You could definitely use entries from there to piece together where "Nazere" ends and dredgen Bael begins

[solid oriole]

Both events are before Bael

Or specially the in-depth needs of the timeline I’m looking for

[trim grotto]

I'm unfortunately a dash out of the loop at the moment, but I'd recommend asking a community like the Ishtar Collective or the Cryptarchy. The regulars of this channel, myself included, do know a lot, but it's always nice to reach out to a wider audience.

[solid oriole]

Can you suggest a link

[trim grotto]

There are some notable folks with interest in creating timelines as it is, such as MrDynoGames and others

[trim grotto]

Aye, uno momento

ah right silly me
server rules
one sec

May I DM them?

The links, to be clear.

[fluid stag]

yo guys in the final cutscene of rengedes, bael (the big bad) seems to take damage, did he die or did he survive the crash?

[dapper moss]

he is alive

[river surge]

It dosent but for Winnower its something that we cant understand, The Sword Logic itself is based on violence, everything that we do is heresy, so something is still at the center of it

[solid oriole]

Yea sorry, I was trying to ask for the invite but I didn’t wanna get anyone banned

[trim grotto]

It's alright if I get banned I'll just send @sick yew memes about Night In The Woods until he relents

[slim girder]

[river surge]

Huh

[dim minnow]

you can see his ship take off right after Drifter and the rest of our crew leave just before Nightfall Station explodes

furthermore, he has dialogue in Lawless Frontier

[slim girder]

Very curious to see what Baels next play is. Lume as well because we destroyed the eclipse core and that power is I believe keeping him alive by powering his cuirass.

He is literally wearing his life support

And Bael is now missing a hand

[river surge]

Bael 100% coming back with a robotic arm

100%

[dim minnow]

the Eclipse energy that powers his suit is nullifying the Darkness within the Hive Magic that wounded him

[river surge]

Not 100% more like 101%

[dim minnow]

Eclipse energy is pretty much anti-Paracausality

while the Nine can't control Paracausality directly, they can control the conditions that allow it to occur

[slim girder]

Oh yeah I know that bit but again it is still what's keeping him alive by halting that corruption. Without it he'd be consumed

He's pulled a tony stark arc reactor basically

[river surge]

The Nine using anti causality is 100% against the rules of the flower game

[dim minnow]

Bael came to the conclusion that the Barant Imperium was doomed long before we destroyed Nightfall Station

[river surge]

Its more like a new rule thats pretty much negating the rules that the gardener input

[dim minnow]

so he's pretty much bleeding it dry for the sake of his next plans, much to Lume's dismay

[slim girder]

Well him and Lume have different goals. We've known that for ages now

[dim minnow]

I have a feeling that at some point Lume will realize this and will likely turn on Bael

[river surge]

What was Lume goal?

Again?

Cause I forgot

[dim minnow]

reclaim Torobatl

[river surge]

OH

[slim girder]

Retake Torobatl

[river surge]

SHIT

I forgot these maniacs really want to take that planet back

I think every Cabal dream is the same

Reclaim Torabatl

[dim minnow]

one of the main problems with the Imperium is that they're divided

[slim girder]

He believes Caiatl has abandoned that goal and has ruined the cabal empire.
Blames us and Zavala

[dim minnow]

the only thing really keeping them together is spite towards Caiatl

[river surge]

See this is where the main difference comes in

Lumes Imperium is divided while we are united

[dim minnow]

but the reason's behind the Barant and the psions of the Imperium's spite towards Caiatl don't mix well

furthermore the Barant see themselves superior to psions

[slim girder]

Caiatls loyalists have also recently declared open war on the imperium

[river surge]

Thats perfect actually

Down with the evil cabals

[dim minnow]

which inspired the Totality Division (literally the Imperium's Intelligence Bureau) to work for their own interests

[slim girder]

The totality division as a whole is because of the imperiums position over psions

[river surge]

This sounds so Star Wars is insane actually

[slim girder]

Rao is actually a very interesting character that I don't think gets enough attention.
Riliks is busy crushing on Eido and Zephyrus is a good source of information but Rao has a lot more stuff going on in the background and has direct links into the imperium and what Bael is doing

[river surge]

Bael is more than likely trying to use Eclipse

[dim minnow]

there's also the potential future plotline of Bael forcing Lume to screw over the Totality Division

[river surge]

Or something like that

[slim girder]

He can't anymore. We destroyed it

[river surge]

Cant VI give him back?

[dim minnow]

there's already dialogue of Bael telling Lume to give him some of TD's territory to use as ritual sites

[slim girder]

Maybe but the eclipse core is the equivalent of when the nine gave drifter the haul

[dim minnow]

Eclipse energy is still a thing, it's just that we destroyed their means of weaponising it

[river surge]

Also

VI being The Alchemist makes the perfect sense

Since he is the only outer with that passion to change himself

This leads to the Alchemist theory when they tried to turn base metals into gold

Gold back in ancient times was considered the biggest value on Earth before diamonds

VI is trying to turn himself from that base material into gold so he could escape

VI is experiment his way to reach that physical existence so he could basically free himself

[dim minnow]

VI seems to be big on Sword Logic

[river surge]

He dosent understand it

The only way he could practice sword logic is if he is mortal

Thats how I view it

[slim girder]

Any being can practice sword logic. But it requires rituals and something to actually tithe to.
VI doesn't even understand what death actually is it just knows that it's the means to get what it wants

[river surge]

Yeah

I just wnated to point out that he dosent know what death is

But isnt it unfair for VI to be a 4D being practicing it?

Cause he is basically higher than every being in the universe

[dim minnow]

I think there's an entry where VI discovers the Sword

or something like that

might have been one of the Lawless Frontier armor set lroe tabs

[slim girder]

Being in the 4th dimension does not make you "higher" or more powerful than others.
Maya in the 3rd dimension murdered III.
We would probably also be able to harm the nine if we were to find the means

[river surge]

Maya with a powerful paracausal artifact

[slim girder]

The nine just exist in a different plane than ours.
Just like how the taken exist in the ascendant plane.
One is not stronger than the other based on place

[river surge]

Since u mentioned abt the Taken

In the ascendant plane

Is the ascendant plane a higher dimension or just another plane in general

[slim girder]

It's a realm that reflects our own as mara puts it.

[river surge]

So its 3D but upside down

Basically

[slim girder]

Basically yeah

It's how we could use the ascendant plane to sidestep defence we'd otherwise never get through

If something is blocking you Use the ascendant plane to just appear on the other side using your own power

[river surge]

Yeah I know I was just wondering if its just a higher plane

[river surge]

That actually seems broken if u tell me

[slim girder]

It is broken. But few can actually do this kind of thing

Mara is one of them

[river surge]

Mara

Oryx?

The Witness?

[slim girder]

Mhm. Eris as well

[river surge]

Eris yeah

Eris knows everything

[dim minnow]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/uncivil-discourse

it does seem like VI is getting into Sword Logic

[slim girder]

VI has always been watching and learning. Like we saw it say it had observed Oryx when he appeared as an echo back in heresy.
It doesn't fully grasp it yet but it believes an ascendant rift is the key to escape and that tithes/killing is the way to achieve.
It's why VI is so violent generally.

If being violent achieves that goal it will always do that but obviously it does not fully understand it

Even Lodi when channeling VI said that VI "Pushed him down"

Left Xur messed up as well

[river surge]

VI trying to be violent

[slim girder]

Though I guess after observing the hive for so long, a species born out of anger, violence and death I guess it rubbed off onto VI

[river surge]

proceeds to push someone down

[slim girder]

Well it's more like he was forcing Lodi to bow or something if that makes sense given VIs power conplex

VI is angry, shouts everything it says and if Bael is anything to go by, hurts anyone they come into contact with

[river surge]

WOW

VI pipe down brother

Bro thinks he is a pitbull or smth

VI is that one kid from school who always bullies anyone and hates everyone

[hallow horizon]

VI is getting into sword logic?

Isn't that kinda pretty bad?

[blazing wasp]

Given that it appears to be the main antagonist of the fate saga... Yea

That's pretty bad

[hallow horizon]

I didn't really get what the sword logic is I just know it's stuff that the witness wanted people to believe in or something

Right?

[trim grotto]

It depends exactly what is being referred to.

Sword Logic is simple. Might makes right, and if you die, you deserved to die. The strong survive, the weak die, and every death strengthens the universe. Sharpens it like a sword.

Then there's the ontological death feasting of the Worm Gods and the Parasite Worms. Death feeds them, makes them stronger. For the Parasites, they then strengthen their hosts. That's what the Hive do to get stronger.

VI being into Sword Logic isn't exactly good, because it means a member of the Nine is basically saying "killing is good, helping the weak is bad". But it also doesn't really understand death because it doesn't understand life, either.

[slim girder]

I don't think VI will be THE antagonist of the fate saga personally but they'll definitely have a big role to play.
It really just depends on who or what is the harbinger of that extinction level event.
We still have yet to meet our next witness level foe, the witness calls itself the "first" knife and the winnower has sent us a message after its death.

[river surge]

I personally think

Its The Lord of Every Nothing

Cause he is the ultimate sword logic user rn

Basically the main follower of The Winnower sword logic

And possibily the 2nd knife

[slim girder]

Still a lot to learn about them. Not even sure if they know who the winnower is since they kinda just popped into existence because the taken need a leader.
They managed to fool Oryx because it was doing the same things as the winnower which is already concerning because that means they could be a straight up usurper.

Having the same abilities as what is essentially one of the gods of creation is definitely something to be concerned about

[river surge]

Fr

I think The Winnower

Is using The Lord of Every Nothing to practice even more sword logic

[slim girder]

Drifter in renegades simply said "Futures full of knives and teeth, be ready"

[river surge]

Since Tloen has no clue abt The Winnower at all

[blazing wasp]

I don't think the winnower is doing shit for fuck

Genuinely

I don't think it's doing anything except watching

Its so utterly confident in it's views to the point it thinks itself as inevitable, no scheming needed on its end, no action needs to be taken, it will just happen.

[slim girder]

TLOEN isn't really practising sword logic it looks like.
The taken simply worship it and that was enough to give birth to it in the first place.
It even says that if that worship stopped the deed was already done and it would still exist

[river surge]

He is the founder of the sword logic rule, and we all basically follow it

Every being follows it it seems like because at some point someone or something will surpass infinity

[blazing wasp]

Well, we explicitly don't

Every time we've followed it it's been bomb logic in a roundabout way

[slim girder]

The winnower can't do anything. Goes against the rules of the game. It has personally called us a "difficult friend" so we aren't following it's exact plans but it's more than happy to just sit back

[blazing wasp]

We don't subscribe to the ideology

[blazing wasp]

Ye

It will very much sit back and yap though

[river surge]

But The Gardener can do

[blazing wasp]

It admittedly does very little

[river surge]

Well well well

[sick yew]

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/yes-night-in-the-woods-nitw-mae-borowski-mae-night-in-the-woods-gif-20479898

[hazy veldt]

fym he cant do anything, he doesnt need to

he wins regardless

final shape will be one way or another given enough time, 1 will remain and there is quite literally nothing anyone can do about it

he can do as much as gardener can do, add to that 90% of all taken are made by him, thats trillions of beings

all gardener did was spawn about couple million undying weirdos

[slim girder]

When I said they can't do anything i meant it in the sense that they choose not to, not that it's like all they can do is watch.
This would be massive hypocrisy if it tilted the scales to favour a certain species. Its whole ideology is that those who live in this universe do so because they fought for that right. Like we survived the stone age because we hunted, learned to make fire and cook meat, etc.

[hazy veldt]

i mean

creation of guardians who straight up shit at laws of physics

and death itself

i guess it can be called a balancing move against sword logic being a thing

[slim girder]

Ideology still applies. We still fight to live in this universe and have done countless things to circumvent threats that would have made us extinct.

[hazy veldt]

i guess

idk how we are supposed to antagonize winnower (if he is supposed to be antagonized)

[slim girder]

Give it time. They've done the same thing for eons but we are going to be that one thing that gives it problems

It's already said that it will be meeting us so I guess it depends how that interaction plays out or what happens before that meeting

[hazy veldt]

not sure they can twist him in a "evil" way

he kind of already visited us

on multiple occasions

i perceive him not as an individual being but as a force

a kin to great filter

winnower came to us during collapse, crota, oryx, witness etc.

[slim girder]

Don't think they're even going to.
Based on the messages we currently have the winnower comes at us in a very similar manner to calus.
No herald of destruction or something just a "Well done, you've caught my attention, be seeing you" type vibe

It's interested in us. No violent intent or anything

Yet

[hazy veldt]

yeah he enjoys us i guess

[slim girder]

When Oryx first communed with them the first thing it said was basically chillax and drop the sword, lets chat a bit

It's not a malicious force

[hazy veldt]

he doesnt have favorites except the game itself, he's willing to somewhat "aid" those he enjoys

that was oryx for longest time being

[slim girder]

But it's not going to stop beings interpreting its views in different ways like the witness did.

[hazy veldt]

yeah bc if witness enacted final shape

everything except itself would be calcified

thus leaving witness only thing standing

[slim girder]

"Gods forged us, but they do not tell the knife what shape to carve"

[hazy veldt]

right

[blazing wasp]

It is going to call it a bitch thout

Though

[hazy veldt]

not really

[slim girder]

The winnower isn't above that. It's even said it's not above being a little evil

[blazing wasp]

Well to be more accurate, it said it doesnt deserve to think

[hazy veldt]

if certain somebody emerges above everyone else

[blazing wasp]

Not because the winnower hates it

[hazy veldt]

it already kind of follows his doctrine

[blazing wasp]

The witness is just boring to the winnower

[hazy veldt]

it still was going to enact its vision of final shape

thus emerging on top

thus proving winnower right

which he is

[blazing wasp]

Everything would technically die

[hazy veldt]

except witness

[blazing wasp]

"ego" death is a kind of death

The loss of one's self, the you is gone, a hollow mimicry replaces it

[hazy veldt]

it would be more about calcification, i see it as removal of concept of motion

both literal and metaphorical

[blazing wasp]

It would give everyone the witness' interpretation of your favourite moment, on repeat, you will be made to like it

[hazy veldt]

not sure about that

[blazing wasp]

The campaign didn't exactly make it subtle

[hazy veldt]

it did lie a lot to trick people into service

[blazing wasp]

It didn't even tell this to it's disciples

[hazy veldt]

which could mean its a lie

[blazing wasp]

They don't actually know what the final shape was

[hazy veldt]

yep

[blazing wasp]

They just trusted the witness would fit their goals

And it's not quite wrong.

[hazy veldt]

wait hold on

hundred promises upheld

does that mean it had hundred disciples

anyways going back to winnower

i enjoy him much

[heady gyro]

Do we have any sort of idea how long it has been since the pre-golden age

[hazy veldt]

uh

my call would be like

3-4k years

wish it would be 6-7....

[west tree]

The only time I look here

I see a 67 joke

[hazy veldt]

looking here

rookie mistake

[slim girder]

I swear to god if a thatsis reformation vex starts saying 6 7 I will switch allegiance to the totality division

Hell I'll join the pikers even

[river surge]

The Winnower is boring imp

He dosent do anything

Just yapps

[heady gyro]

Really? Why's that

[river surge]

Cause why not

Our golden age was the smallest ever

The Traveler came in 2014

And it lasted for 2-3k years

Then Black Fleet came

And that was pretty much it

Wait no

200-300 years I think

Or 2000-3000

We need Mael here

[heady gyro]

I think the longest time the golden age coulda gone for would be 500 years

Then the collapse

Then the dark age for around 800 years if that whole thing with the iron lords + the post iron lord era is true

Maybe busting up to maybe 1000++

[icy grove]

So basically... I kinda missed this part of the lore so what were the episodes about?

[hard sigil]

the episodes regarded the three Echoes that were expelled into the system with the Witness' death. Fragments of their memory made into physical objects in the light

[queen swallow]

Episodes revolved around things called "Echoes" which were shards of paracausal power.

In Episode Echoes, we chase down Maya Sundaresh, who is The Conductor. She uses her Echo to essentially split off a section of the Vex and give them their own conscious.

In Episode Revenant, we fight Fikrul (for like the eighth time) who has been given an Echo. He wants to turn all Fallen into Scorn but is stopped by Mithrax and Eramis, who ultimately winds up taking the Echo away and leaves the solar system to create a new Riis, the Fallen homeworld.

In Episode Heresy, a/the third Echo recreates Oryx, the Taken King, from memories. I played this one the most but I recall the least of its story.

[hard sigil]

the main storyline was the hive goddesses (savathûn, xivu and eris) fighting over who gets to keep Oryx, who was mostly in a state of languid for most of the episode because he thought his being alive to be heresy (like the name!!), and he was disappointed of what became of his sisters

currently the only echo in the system is the Echo of Control, which is still in the possession of Maya. However, it's begun to disagree with her frantic tactical decisions and mission, which has led to it being less effective

[slow berry]

huh

no, quite the opposite actually

[hard sigil]

wait no yeah I'm misremembering

[slow berry]

it starts with oryx sort of wanting to explore his environment and figuring out what happened in the few thousand years inbetween him communing with the deep and right now (because it was only the memories of oryx up until just before the creation of the dreadnaught)

then by the end he realizes his very own existence is heretic, just like her sisters and eris morn, and allows himself to be killed by the guardian

while the lord of every nothing, xivu arath and savathûn send forces to try and stop us from doing that

[slim girder]

He didn't allow us to kill him. He was already captured by eris in her throne but was breaking free and was about to try and leave for fundament where one of the sisters would have been able to follow and claim him. Eris even said he is too powerful and destroying him was the only solution left.

[slow berry]

My personal reading of the situation is that it allows itself to be killed, or at the very least, chooses not to flee into any of the other options that would have it be captured or protected

[frigid sparrow]

he definitely had accepted his fate

his last words were "at least the stars will remember the shape I gave them"

he wasn't scornful, he wasn't irritated, he wasn't distraught

[ember storm]

This was a conclusion it came to midway through the last mission, for the record; the setup for it was literally the echo trying to wrestle control of the Dreadnaught to drive it back to fundament

[dim minnow]

if he was really still trying to go back to Fundament, why did he go to Trenchway?

just an interesting thought that maybe he had given up on doing that and decided to just have one last fight

[slim girder]

Only problem I had with heresys ending was that we didn't end up seeing Oryxs old throne room.

Fighting him as a echo in the same place we did at the end of TTK campaign would have been cool

[icy grove]

What was like the conclusion for the end of the episodes? Like how the witch queen showed the witness at the end

[slim girder]

The conclusion was us solving a chess puzzle and drifter telling us that something was calling out to us

[ember storm]

Well you need to understand they weren’t directly connected to each other

Episode Echoes just served to set up Maya while also acknowledging Failsafe as a character

Revenant tied up the loose end of Fikrul while also giving Eramis a bit of redemption

They weren’t the same impact or length as actual full on expansion stories

[dim minnow]

and Heresy is setting up for the future of the Hive gods and the new Taken master

[icy grove]

Okay so I just wanna summarize this so I'm making sure I understand. For edge of fate we get called to Kepler and we get there, find matter spark, see the nine stuff, meet Lodi, find out time is weird, something something black hole and people there contain it and we're trying to get the archon guy so far

Correct?

This is just like the first mission or two

[queen swallow]

Correct

[frigid sparrow]

pretty much

with matterspark/us being called to kepler/time weirdness/nine stuff all being intertwined

and the anomaly and archon stuff being related but a bit separate event-wise

[icy grove]

Wait, there was a guy on a frozen planet in eternity that we could go to, he was like floating and I think he was called an emissary? Is that Orin?

[frigid sparrow]

yes

[jagged badge]

Orin is a woman, but yes, she was the Emissary of the Nine. I’m not sure if you’re thinking of the early Trials of the Nine or the more recent Rite of the Nine but she was an accessible vendor throughout the game’s history

[icy grove]

Was Maya one of the people from the episodes?

[jagged badge]

She was introduced as a villain in Episode: Echoes but has existed as a character across lore since Destiny 1

[icy grove]

Was she the one on the cover?

[hard sigil]

cover of what?

because she's very vaguely on the splash art for Echoes, but if you're talking about Edge of Fate, that's Orin

[icy grove]

Okay yeah ty

Does Orin know Lodi? Or do they just talk weird

[hard sigil]

that would be hard to explain without spoiling certain things

[icy grove]

Hmmm

I just found out he's from || the past ||

[hard sigil]

yeah it'd be best for me to not say much. Orin does speak weird for a very specific reason though

[icy grove]

Alright, I'll take that into account