📚lore-discussion

[frigid sparrow]

it will mever not piss me off how toland was one of the characters used for martian missives and bungie has continued to sit on their ass with this character

[slim elk]

They haven't gone into it. But the whole Earth situation proved Dead Orbit right
Earth is literally becoming uninhabitable

Far as we know every other star system doesn't have a weird dark matter conglomerate

Not a bad idea to find anywhere else to live on

[lofty badge]

I want npc human enemies

[hard sigil]

well you've got sere

[queen swallow]

And Bael

[dim minnow]

Sere is quite literally the first of his kind ingame

sure there was the Rise of iron final boss fight, but they were more like corpses puppeted by SIVA

[queen swallow]

The Conductor?

[dim minnow]

we don't realyl fight Bael or Maya though

though they are enemies to us, Sere is the only one we've actually fought ingame

[lofty badge]

That shows up among unnamed mobs

[queen swallow]

I’m assuming you mean unnamed race?

[dim minnow]

unnamed apprentices

[lofty badge]

No basic mobs we fight all the time lol

[dim minnow]

Sere is deadass the final boss of the dungeon

[trim grotto]

Nah. This is Bungie. The last human enemy we fought was that one singular corrupt police officer in Halo 3 ODST, and before that, it was BOBs from Marathon, who aren't even human - just mimics.

[lofty badge]

Ye

[trim grotto]

Marathon being '94, bee tee dubs

[dim minnow]

I guess the idea is that average humans on their own tend to be that much weaker than even lesser enemy units

[lofty badge]

True

[river surge]

Cannonically speaking they cant afford to make Bael or Maya fight us cause we may kill them there

and they dont wanna aford that so they keeping for future projects/expansions

[dim minnow]

Maya at least has Vex fuckery to fall back on

though Bael would need some very good Nine fuckery to justify duking it out with us

[river surge]

We literally annihilated all her peak arsenal in Desert Perpetual

she can throw at us colony size minotaur and we still kill it

[river surge]

Imagine if he comes back with Eclipse

and starts using it against us

we are fucked then

we have no counter against that literally

cooked

[dim minnow]

she probably won't get any unless the Outer Orbits want her to

I do like the idea of Bael going around and gathering more allies like the old Factions that left after Splicer

[river surge]

Also Pikers are the best

no joke

[trim grotto]

more like
stinkers

[dim minnow]

while it would be interesting for him to recruit Maya, I don't think she would join him unless she suddenly turned rational and realized it would probably be her best bet at this point

[dim minnow]

Falcon is goated

[river surge]

Maya wont join him at all

[dim minnow]

and Maya being rational would be out of character for her

[river surge]

Maya will literally suffocate that Echo until it literally will overdrive and explode

[echo brook]

"Sere can't be a human because he only has 3 fingers!!"

[slow berry]

theres a lot of humans with three fingers aint 'em

[river surge]

On my life I see 5

Or is this supposed to be a joke?

cause I am literally just not okay rn

My back hurts like crazy

[echo brook]

people are claiming only 3 fingers

but obviously haven't even looked at the boss :p

[river surge]

Nah bri

He has 5

[sturdy patrol]

I’ve been exploring the new locations and found the same taken tendrils that were found on the dreadnaught. I’ve found them on Mars and Europa, but not on Venus. Anyone know why they’re there? (Sorry if the pictures are low quality, I’m on console so I took them from my phone)

[river surge]

They are taken tendrils

Mars as we know had taken anomalies

And also VI has taken abilities that he took as examples from The Lord of Every Nothing

Basically wants to understand and learn sword logic

Thats why we find them in both Europa and Mars

And there are probably some on Venus too, we just didnt find them

Both of them are basically linked to the dire taken

[modern lodge]

Suddenly turned rational :)

[cloud crag]

Do you think a guardian could cut themselves off from the light like the force.

Cutting themselves off from its sources not completely but sort of turning off the Valve like Ghaul did with the trap.

[slow berry]

yeah it's called killing your ghost

alternatively, a less violent solution are the light trapping cages used on zavala's ghost

alternatively alternatively, Darkness Zones are places where light doesn't reach well enough to provide resurrection

[ember storm]

“Hm I want to cut myself off from the light”
“Guardian what are you-“

https://tenor.com/view/dr-manhattan-gif-18899941

[cloud crag]

Yea don't think destroying your ghost is a good idea

[ember storm]

I mean it’s a viable option

[cloud crag]

But yea just wondering if there's ever been an example of a guardian stopping their use of light

[ember storm]

Efrideet and her pacifist colony would count I suppose

And also Dredgen Yor

[cloud crag]

Also we have a new war noted in lore

[eager trout]

Speaking of Maya, I can't express how much I dislike her

[eager trout]

Panic Response is an appropriate reaction to that

[eager trout]

Chioma deserved better

[slim elk]

Good question to ask is when it went all wrong

Had a copy of Maya helping out in the desert raid

[eager trout]

No idea, but from the little lore I know about them, their entire relationship is basically just Chioma keeping Maya from being a total psychopath by being hot.

Considering how single-minded the Conductor is, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out she was originally a copy of Maya that the Vex reprogrammed to investigate the Echo, but that ended up going rogue.

[hard sigil]

the copies of Maya were sourced from when she was working at Ishtar, which is decades before the collapse, and the real Maya's discovery of and experiments with the Veil. She became obsessed with it, which (alongside the apocalypse) led to a very serious decline in her mental state

[mild junco]

Is Bael technically an Emmisary?

[dim minnow]

he's a faux emissary

he was made as one while not posessing the traits necessary to be a viable Emissary candidate

well, he's probably more like a counter Weapon

in terms of what his purpose is

but he does seem to be used by VI as an Emissary

[dim minnow]

and as a result, we can see that his body is sort of falling apart

he lost an eye, his nose, even his liver

[queen walrus]

Oh no, i just realized the title for the dungeon is “Praxic” im ruined i am obligated to get it but i have no idea if i have the skill for soling that last boss. Nor friends for the feats part.

[slow berry]

it's a pretty easy dungeon, specially compared to the past couple

[queen walrus]

certainly im still having trouble with that last fight though. Then again i could swap to not solar and have an easier time. Just run prismatic or somthing.

[frozen pawn]

can someone explain Bomb logic for me :<

in a way that a useless potato can understand

[queen swallow]

Bomb Logic?

[frozen pawn]

yep,
the Hive has Sword Logic while Mara keep talking about Bomb Logic or something like that

wat is it

[queen swallow]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/9q5umq/comment/e8734fo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[frozen pawn]

read this earlier...

I'm sorry I'm a useless potato T^T

[slim girder]

Bomb logic is the idea that many things together will be the strongest thing in the universe. Like how a bomb is made of many things

Sword logic is the idea that only one thing will be the strongest in the universe

[frozen pawn]

hmmmm
So...
Sword Logic = fight untill you are the strongest.
Bomb = gang up on your enemy?

[slim girder]

Basically yeah

Sword logic is kill until only you stand proving you are the strongest

Bomb logic is similar to our own mantra of stronger together

[frozen pawn]

hmmmmmmmmm

thank you

[slim girder]

Would you rather be a Tharsis reformation Cyclops or fanatic?

Can't walk or having your only purpose be to explode

[fringe wasp]

What would make lume think he could win against us when he probably knows we cleared literally gods before him 😭 is it blind confidence?

[hard sigil]

and the engine generating anti-paracausal death ray that's replaced his heart

[fringe wasp]

Ah fair enough

[river surge]

As The Witness said

The Sword Logic teaches us

that what cant be destroyed

will surpass infinity

[slim girder]

The witness is stupid. Bro put his undoing in the pale heart

[river surge]

How fraud can u actually be to waste 6 months trying to reshape the universe

but when we came inside the pale heart that was the moment where it decided

to do it

[blazing wasp]

It was constantly trying tbf

[river surge]

The Traveler was resisting

but still

[blazing wasp]

It just happened to get to the end when we did the raid

[river surge]

I think it was fully aware of the fact that we know how to unmake it

so it fully tried that time

[blazing wasp]

Which ironically was lucky for us, it'd be bad if we came earlier

[river surge]

I still think The Witness was trying to hurt The Traveler rather than making The Final Shape

[slim girder]

Not exactly. If mataidoixia is anything to go by the first thing it did was immediately start torturing the traveler out of pettiness and hatred. It was wasting time.

[blazing wasp]

Ah

Right yeah

That does add up

[river surge]

Yeah

[blazing wasp]

Funny enough, not relevant to the SE mechanics

[river surge]

SE mechanics was the music right

[blazing wasp]

Resonance, were fucking with it trying to enact the final shape

[hard sigil]

the square goes into the circle hole

[blazing wasp]

Delaying the process and sabotaging

[river surge]

Oh thats right

[blazing wasp]

Its like entering a factory and messing with the production line, that's what we did

[river surge]

Also Verity was supposed to be our final shape

[slim girder]

The witness despises the traveler. No way would it have just gone right away with the final shape. It made us suffer during the collapse, It really wants anything related to it to die horribly

[river surge]

basically The Witness enacting it

on us

[river surge]

Bro waste so much time trying to hurt it and when we came inside it realised that it was all just a non sense

add that with the fact that we know how to unmake it

it literally decided to go fully to enact it

and we stopped it

lol

The Witness arrogance was on another level

[river surge]

Fast Strat Verity

be like

3 possibilities 2 moves

1 key

[lofty badge]

i hope we get a patrol zone next expac

[warm zephyr]

what exactly was the colapse like i know the darkness like almost wiped out humanity but how

[river surge]

The Black Fleet came

caused natural disasters all over the system

came to Earth

caused nearly all of humanity to go extinct

all of that using natural disasters created by the Black Fleet

Acid Rain, Earthquakes, Tsunami, any type of bad phenomena

[warm zephyr]

why did the black fleet ever leave then

[river surge]

The Traveler caused a huge wave of light pushing it back + Nezarec got killed by Savathun

The Veil was lost

the whole operation failed basically

[warm zephyr]

the whitness?

[river surge]

The Witness was outside the galaxy

waiting

well not waiting

they thought the Traveler was dead

Until Red War

when it came back

[warm zephyr]

why did it take him so long to get back once thr traveler awokend

[river surge]

Literally said

it was outside the galaxy

Red War final cutscene shows that

[warm zephyr]

in the scale of space traveling gods being outside the galixy doesnt seem very far away

[river surge]

Its still a really big distance

also by the looks of the cutscene

u can see that it was really far away from the galaxy itself

and also it took The Witness like 2-3 expansions before reaching Sol

again

really big distance + a really big time

[jagged badge]

By the metric of normal space travel time, the Witness arriving in just a few years is pretty quick

I don’t think Destiny really has or often uses any kind of hyperspace or slipspace or whatever excuse other sci-fi uses for bypassing space travel time

[queen swallow]

Then why colorful light tunnel when traveling?

Yes, solar system small compared to universe but it's still pretty big

[river surge]

Also we dont know how fast these pyramids are moving

we just only know they moved throughout the entire galaxy following The Traveler

And there were quite catching up tbh

The Traveler sometimes couldnt even fininsh the uplifting before they were there

[queen swallow]

They must be slower than the Traveler, since they were only ever catching up to it, not matching speeds with it. From the Lodi files, we could estimate how fast the Traveler was moving before it reached humanity. The Black Fleet catches it, Traveler decides to fight instead of flee for once. It "dies" and the Black Fleet leave, either by some mechanism/power of the Traveler or because they think it dead dead.

[river surge]

power of The Traveler

It created a shockwave that pushed them back I think

before it "died"

Just like the one from Red War but I think much much stronger

and bigger

Also we know The Witness wasnt there

it was outside the galaxy

With the rest of the fleet

we can presume Nezarec was sent with not the whole fleet but rather a portion of it

[slow berry]

The closest star to Earth that isn't the sun is 4 light years away

Space is very, very large and very, very empty.

Even the distance between the Earth and the Moon is enormous

[river surge]

365k km btw

which is ALOOT

not even my dads car has 365km

Not even MY car

WAIYT

WAIT

WAIT

I need a lore guy here RIGHT NOW

Is it true that

VI told Bael

about that future where we died

and he looked into the grave

Cause if this true THEN THIS MIGHT BE HUGEE

I saw this after watching Aztecross video watching Dankke

[summer depot]

So how do guardians make the praxic blade come back? Just generic light abilities or is there something in the lore that explains in more detail?

[slow berry]

magic

[river surge]

Nothing lore wise regarding that

but my personal theory regarding that is the fact that praxic blades do come with a special thing inside them that can literally return the blade to its user

kinda like a boomerang but far more sophisticated and advanced

MERCURY IS BACK

WHAT

I MISSED SO MUCH MAN

WHERE ARE THE LORE EXPERTS I WANNA TALK

So that means only IO remains to be back from the ascendant plane

[fringe zenith]

Thinking about renegades and equilibrium would Calus recruiting us into the Shadow ranks be related to the shadow ranks in EQ?

[warm zephyr]

to space gods far isnt very far like takes light 4 years to get to the nearest system to us but to a space god thay could be traveled in minutes or seconds

[dim minnow]

It's possible that VI showed him a future where he wins

Could be bullshit, could be legit

[river surge]

Looking so forward

Literally

Also Mercury is back

[dim minnow]

Yeah

[river surge]

I also wonder if Io is back too

[dim minnow]

Last we checked, Io was in the Ascendant Plane

[river surge]

Dang

[dim minnow]

This was back in Heresy

[river surge]

So it aint back yet

[dim minnow]

Unless it returned in the past few months

[river surge]

Maybe just maybe if we learn that power to move worlds

The Witness learned it

Oryx learned it

We can too

[ember storm]

That’s just the power to take used to it’s fullest potential

Which Oryx did not do

Savathun did it to get the traveler in her throne world but why would she ever do anything for us

[river surge]

I was wrong

Yeah Oryx never learned that

Only to take

Which he did when he communed with The Winnower and became Oryx

[ember storm]

Oryx was like the fakest navigator there was he got a good family and then just fucked off

[river surge]

The Witness had that

Power

[ember storm]

Never left his room like a chud

[river surge]

Ngl

The Witness had every single power in the verse except the light

Bro could literally do anything

Us using taken in heresy was cool tho

[ember storm]

Oryx is basically just like how Satan was portrayed in that one smiling friends episode

He did literally nothing

https://tenor.com/view/smiling-friends-just-what-i-wanted-exactly-what-i-wanted-actually-exactly-what-i-wanted-what-i-wanted-gif-1515945456237546617

[river surge]

Oryx slander

[ember storm]

I’m the biggest antagonist slanderer there is

[river surge]

What about The Witness

[ember storm]

The only one without flaw is my beloved emperor Calus

[ember storm]

Ugly

[river surge]

What can we about that abomination

[river surge]

[ember storm]

Angry design was fine but it didn’t do enough imo

Like they never actually went into detail about how the witness created taken

[river surge]

Same way Oryx did

[ember storm]

It’s supposed to be the original master but all it did was basic resonance blasts which the pyramids did

Could’ve had something like this

https://twitter.com/bioluminosity/status/1589036325071900674

bio ➡ bsky (@bioluminosity)

Inverted Witness
#Destiny2

X · Nov 5, 2022, 11:25 PM

[river surge]

Canonically speaking he never communed with The Winnower

He just knew it was there

And was moving like it was his knife

But in reality he was just clueless

The Witness more than likely learned how to make taken with the current knowledge from the ascendant plane

Also he The Witness could actually take The Traveler into the ascendant plane

But that guy is such a fraud

He left it in orbit

But yeah The Witness being the original master of the taken and having no lore implications in how he got it is actually wierd asf

[river surge]

Okay I saw a confirmation that Bael is ugly asf

Good thing they kept that mask on

[slow berry]

Okay but if you're gonna go "well they could've done it faster" what tells you they didn't just do it as fast as they could

They traveled in the ballpark of twenty seven thousand light years in a single year

[ember storm]

i could beat it

[eager trout]

He is the greatest and biggest Cabal emperor

Really though, other than politics and not following Cabal culture, why was Calus considered a bad emperor?

[slim girder]

Exactly for that reason

[ember storm]

well for his coronation he renovated an entire desert and castrated consul

[slim girder]

Consul says he infected the cabal with his greed

[ember storm]

so there's that

[slim girder]

Also murderd Caiatls pet in cold blood and jealously because she loved them more than him

Even had a poor servant do the deed

[dim minnow]

before Calus ruled, the Cabal were lead by a supposedly corrupt military elite known as the Praetorate

[ember storm]

The first act of my coronation was to have the Consul kneel at my feet. He was a pathetic figure, stripped of title, rank, and clothing. He would never wield power again, and would beget no heir. I made sure of that personally.

[eager trout]

Did what to who-?

[ember storm]

yknow i dont think he's medically qualified

[ember storm]

remember ghaul's mentor

yeah

[slim girder]

Guy in the red war who was at ghauls side

[eager trout]

I don't

[ember storm]

he just like

did it

thats not right

give me a second

[eager trout]

The Cabal probably perform surgery with the butcher knives and military grade lasers

[ember storm]

ugly guy

[slim girder]

If calus personally saw to it he prolly just cut off himself

[hard sigil]

the canon scheming eunuch

[eager trout]

With this and the Consul thing that's...two bad things he did.

[dim minnow]

I mean, Consul probably deserved it

[ember storm]

he had a slight disagreement with ghaul at the end nothing major

they're close friends

[dim minnow]

this is true actually

despite what happened towards the end of the Red War

[eager trout]

I mean, hedonism isn't that good either, but it's not like he neglected his duties because of it.

[ember storm]

what duties

going to piss scarf banquets

[hard sigil]

he has everyone do things for him

[eager trout]

He's not a good person, but not a bad emperor either.

[ember storm]

actually i feel like being so petty you have your daughter's dog disembowled on her bed is a bad sign of your objective fairness

[eager trout]

I said he wasn't a good person.

[ember storm]

anyway glory to emperor calus

[dim minnow]

a lot of the reason why he was deposed in the first place was because his close friends didn't really like what he was doing to the empire

[ember storm]

my one true love

i will gladly let the universe die so you get to say "i told you so" to your daughter who wants you executed yessir

[eager trout]

He was petty, greedy, and lazy, yet somehow did more than many.

[dim minnow]

you know I wonder, how much of what Calus believed the reason why the conspirators did was just him being delusional

[hard sigil]

he pretty much just spent a lot of money on "look how cool I am and how much money I have" projects

[dim minnow]

like was he really too popular with the people to be killed?

[eager trout]

He was probably just so unpopular no one cared if he was gone

[eager trout]

Such as...?

[dim minnow]

he claimed that the conspirators quickly threw him in the Leviathan and sent him into exile because killing him would cause too much problems, but Ghaul seemed fine with ending him had it not been for Caiatl telling him not to

[hard sigil]

multiple pleasure worlds

the leviathan

[eager trout]

Elaborate

[slow berry]

Caiatl wanted him to suffer, basically

Calus was a decadent, exhuberant ruler that hogged resources for pleasure and entertainment

So she condemned him to one million years of no phone

[hard sigil]

it's not elaborated on in universe but he literally just had planets designed and terraformed for his entertainment. garden worlds, museums of everything the empire comes across. live menageries of interesting species

[slim girder]

Imagine exiling someone on a trillionaires yacht

[ember storm]

you know a pleasure boat is just like something you go on for easy fun stuff

that but planets

[eager trout]

Better than putting him on something that would make him want to go back and get revenge.

[hard sigil]

and the "client species" of the cabal (totally not slaves guys they're just clients. the emperor treats them so well it's a privilege to serve under him)

[slim girder]

Oh he did want revenge. Being there at the fall of the universe would be that revenge

[eager trout]

That doesn't sound so bad (save for whatever happened to whoever lived on those planets), unless he was the only one allowed to go there.

[eager trout]

Didn't Calus free the Psions?

[slim girder]

The heartshadow sword is the sword calus sent with every assassin tasked to kill his daughter

[slow berry]

The ship was purposefully basically deprived of any actual controls or services and just sent to drift slowly through space

[hard sigil]

I don't know how to explain to you that using the amount of resources it does to turn an entire planet into a monobiome for the sole purpose of making it look nice for one guy and his rich friends is not a good thing

[slim girder]

I know it's just that would be the IRL equivalent

[eager trout]

So not everyone could visit them?

[slow berry]

it'd be more like a raft in the ocean

[slim girder]

It's all aboout image. You visit it and know it was the great and mighty calus

All of it is calus

Calus calus calus

Worship calus the golden emperor

[hard sigil]

easy enough to say they're free. like Rao says, psions are free but they are not equal. The Psions in power keep the rest down to keep their privileges

[slim girder]

Psions are important for the psychic abilites

[eager trout]

Which is not really Calus' fault

[eager trout]

Ok, yeah, that's bad.

Though did he do any good things?

[slim girder]

Nope. All about the lavishness

"grow fat from strength" is something he says a lot

[hard sigil]

he's an incredible narcissist

he turned the Cabal empire into a shell of its former self, gutted their traditions to push his own agenda, and killed anyone who disagreed with him

[slim elk]

Turn it to an endless party uncaring of the actual sustainability

Thus going to such extreme as destroying planets to create wine

(No that's not exaggeration. Calus was still doing it with the Leviathan)

[hard sigil]

he killed caiatls mother and her warbeast because he wanted her affection for himself

he claimed that life's sole purpose was pleasure and that literally nothing else mattered

[hard sigil]

that was his plan for Nessus specifically

[dim minnow]

do we even know anything about Caiatl's mother?

[hard sigil]

we don't even know her name

but we know she was of "unfit station" for Calus

[dim minnow]

when did we hear anything about Calus killing her though

[slim elk]

There's a possible name when we kill Calus

He coughs up a random name that doesn't have anything attached to it lore wise

Cemaili

[hard sigil]

`"Your father chose it for your mother's sake. Out of love." I remain at attention. I do not look at her. "So she's dead."

The Evocate-General looks sharply at me; I can tell by the motion of her [drink. server doesn't like this word] shrub in the edge of my vision. "He never told you?"

"No."

"Well." She sounds genuinely shocked. "Then. It's not my place."`

it's more of an implication

[fringe sundial]

otzot is one of the biggest assholes in the entire lore

[fringe sundial]

he did make a pretty peaceful age for the cabal pre-midnight coup

but he was a terrible person

[tropic sorrel]

How much time passed between the Guardian's revival and the events of Renegades?

[trim grotto]

With some minor leeway, Destiny's timeline is largely 1-1.

Give or take a few months.

So, eleven years.

[tropic sorrel]

Fair enough lmao

I was expecting something like "It's been a hundred years" or "A year ago"

[trim grotto]

If it had been one hundred years, I would really have to hand it to folks like Devrim and Eva for their skincare routine

[hard sigil]

iirc it was specifically 5 months between EoF and Renegades so it's fairly consistent with real time

[trim grotto]

The primary exception is that the Red War lasted for a period of "months" and our own travel time from the Last City to the Farm took quite some time too.

[slow berry]

to make up for this they made sure literally fucking nothing at all happened for the first year of destiny 2

that way the timeline just sorta fell back into place

[river surge]

Is it true that lore wise The Traveler can disrupt or unmake universe phenomenon like black holes, neutron stars and other things

Cause we know from The Harmony lore

That The Traveler somehow unmade that black hole accretion disk

Or smth like that

[jagged badge]

HARMONY. When the Traveler passed across Harmony, it lied to the orbits of ten worlds. Now they orbit the black hole. The Traveler lied to the accretion disc, so that it would give warm light to these worlds.

[river surge]

So it does in a way

[cobalt sonnet]

how was the traveler created

[jagged badge]

We don’t know the Traveler’s origins beyond it being found on the Witness’ homeworld

[hallow horizon]

not sure if this is a stupid question but why is scorn in savathun's throne world

[jagged badge]

They’re the forces of the Witness, sent to interfere with whatever Savathûn was planning after she turned on the Witness

For example, they constantly attacked the source powering her throne, the Wellspring

[hazy veldt]

Is koregos single strongest vex mind we’ve seen so far

afaik it’s only mind that can rival atheon if not outperform it

[ember storm]

My heart goes out to Brakion

[hazy veldt]

Was he really all that

[hallow horizon]

oh they're forces of the witness? that explains it

[jagged badge]

Mhm. Some Scorn were under Fikrul but others fell under the Witness’ control

[hallow horizon]

Interesting

[uneven canyon]

Can Ghost’s resurrect you differently? Like make edits to your body?

Can you tell a ghost to keep a scar or something?

[slow berry]

There's something or other in the DMT lore tab about this, actually

[hard sigil]

`"You know I literally tune myself, right?" asks the Exo Hunter.

"Why? You're immortal."

"And you're not?"

"I know, but I'm… slower. I feel slower."

"Uh huh."

"Just not like what I used to feel like. Not… spry. Not up here either." I tap my helmet.

"Tragedy. I feel for you. Have Gilgamesh tune you then."

I chuckle. "Yeah… he'd love that."

"You two having issues again?"

I shake my head in a stiff, narrow lie. "You think we come back the same every time?"

"I do. Straight from the manufacturer," Gaelin-4 says.

"Sometimes I get the feeling… something's different."

Gaelin stops and squints at me.

I dip my head and let my hood fall forward. "Nothing I can put my finger on, just little things. Adjustments."

"You think he's changing you?" Gaelin's voice sounds more serious than surprised.

I wait too long to answer. It's not because I don't know my answer, but because I want to feel like I still doubt it. I raise my head. Gaelin meets my eyes and looks up to the canopy.`

ok maybe that's a little too big of an excerpt

but generally yeah if you wanted to keep a scar I'm sure your ghost would be able to leave it alone

[eager cairn]

Does anyone else agree that the witnesses ideology was correct in the aspect of fixing life without purpose

[slow berry]

he, uh, he didn't fix that though

it just fixed the life part and made up an arbitrary existence as a purpose

[queen swallow]

“Fixed” your lack of purpose by making your purpose into square

Your purpose now goes in the square hole

[slow berry]

also the witness was not really about fixing life having no purpose

it just believed that life, having no purpose, could only lead to needless suffering, and that the Traveler was being cruel by giving people life and potential for no reason, leading to that suffering

its basically the universal version of the "giving birth is bad because i didn't consent to be born and have to suffer"

[lofty badge]

no

[river surge]

The Witness was the biggest ragebaiter and delusional ever

[lofty badge]

"I will end suffering
Proceeds to cause death and suffering to untold thousands of speices

[dim minnow]

the entire point of TFS was that the Witness is wrong

[trim grotto]

The only reason the Witness swayed half of its Disciples to its side was because they didn't even know what the Final Shape was. They had their own beliefs and ideals. The Witness's true Final Shape was naught but stagnation, a universe preserved in amber, still and silent and forever and dead.
Immaru: The final shape, the way we think about it? It's the winner, the one who's so smart or strong that they beat everybody else. The final shape may not be the most interesting or best looking or whatever, but it's the one who makes it to the finish line, again and again. It's the best at what it does. The Witness' final shape isn't like that. It's just... flat. It's static. It's... a forced ending, like winning a game by turning it off. Forever. Ugh, gives me the heebie-jeebies.
https://youtu.be/S77o5eqHrlU?si=LjfVmliIPrXIOd0R

[lofty badge]

Ye

älso

do most of the mortal humans that is part of the anti guardian stuff not really think about how they need guardians to not get super murdered by forces worse than the vanguard?

like i agree the vanguard should not be in charge of the city

but wanting to kill all guardians cause of that is not really wise

[river surge]

But can they survive without the Vanguard

do u ever questioned that urself?

The main reason why humanity is still alive is because of The Vanguard in general

[trim grotto]

The Vanguard never intended to be in charge of the City, to be fair. They were simply a part of the Consensus, and decisions affecting the City internals were decisions they largely abstained from.

[trim grotto]

Also, sort of? They're aware of threats, but are also ignorant in some ways. The Vanguard withhold a lot of information from people.

Plus, Dead Orbit was one of the largest factions in the City before Splicer, and their entire plan was to abandon the Traveler, thinking it to be the beacon that drew threats to the solar system. Guardians kind of go hand in hand there.

Then of course some people are just stubborn.

[lofty badge]

that is what i mean

[lofty badge]

yep

i just read up on some lore about people arming for a rebellion but like

that won't fix anything <-<

[dim minnow]

the problem is that it's far too easy to convince enough people to do something stupid like that

Bael's gathering non-Lightbearers and anointing them as dredgens

while we defeated Sere and Harrow, they were formidable

Sere seemed to have a similar connection to VI as Bael did

[lofty badge]

true

[dim minnow]

I wonder if the Vanguard has been keeping knowledge of Stasis and Strand away from the city or at least severly limiting it

like, I doubt civilians are unaware of Guardians using Darkness subclasses

but perhaps the Vanguard are keeping info on how to learn them away from the general public

[lofty badge]

possbly ye

but i wonder if we will be fighting mortal humans using Darkness n stuff in a misguided rebellion under Lysander or Bael <-<

[dim minnow]

Lysander would probably be against Bael

given what little info we have on the Concordat

[trim grotto]

Aisha used it in the middle of the City once, if I recall. Plus, Crucible is televised.

[dim minnow]

yeah, that's why I think the fact Stasis and Strand exist is generally known about

but it's likely that the Vanguard doesn't want civilians to actually harness it themselves

[lofty badge]

True Lysander did try and bribe guardians, not kill their ghosts

[hazy veldt]

Witness was fundamentally wrong by assuming that life has to have a purpose in general, before becoming the witness, precursors were so advanced they practically deemed themselves gods (which they were to be fair), they thought they had authority to dictate laws of universe and when they were denied this power they went apeshit

Truth be told I think life conceptually has a purpose in destiny

If we take take winnower and gardener into the equation, final shape is the purpose, it’s just that precursors thought they could define final shape themselves

when true meaning of final shape is only known to g and w

[slim girder]

Looks like VII is up to something.

Pretty sure even IRL dark matter can cause electromagnetic issues

[hazy veldt]

I wonder if VII can interact with the veil

[hard sigil]

it is studying it and the traveller

seemingly to figure out if it can use them to reshape the universe into one where they're free

[hazy veldt]

Not light nor dark can pull that off

The idea that sword logic tithe can bring VI into 3rd dimension is a stretch honestly

I guess dark can theoretically shove one of the nine’s consciousness into a human or other sentient being thus “freeing it” from 4d existence

[hard sigil]

it can

it's essentially just a variant on the final shape

[hazy veldt]

how do you even envision that

[hard sigil]

and the idea for VI was for it to form and then orbit a throne world

not bring itself into the 3rd dimension

[hazy veldt]

It wouldn’t be free then

What’s the point of the entire thing

[hard sigil]

their goal is to be untethered from their dependency on life in the solar system

[hazy veldt]

Yeah but bound to someones throne doesn’t sound better to me idk

[hard sigil]

like that's the Nine's overarching goal as a whole

[hard sigil]

it's VI's own throne, not someone elses

[hazy veldt]

So it wants to migrate into ascendant plane

[hard sigil]

mhm

[hazy veldt]

So uh, why don’t we just find a middle ground and let VI get its tithe by genociding remains of the hive

[hard sigil]

lets it get away from the system and allows it to not have to be bound to the consciousness in the sol system

[hazy veldt]

So it can chill in its throne

And not bother anyone

[hard sigil]

mostly because VI doesn't care

it doesn't like us

and a couple thousand guardians is a lot more efficient than the hundreds of thousands of Hive it would take

[hazy veldt]

Idk weak plot point honestly

Prejudice against humans because why not

Like we have vex and hive practically being our neighbours for last thousand years

[slim girder]

It's not really about that. Since IIIs death is effecting earth so much, what would happen if one of the nine separated from their linked planet? For all we know Saturn's rings could fly off into the other planets in Sol

[river surge]

Why are thinking negatively

Lets say that they fly inside the planet

since the whole planet is made out of gas

using the gravitational theory

all those rocks could combine inside the planet and create a core

[slim girder]

Would also like to point out a guardian is worth a lot more when making a throne world.
The mindbender got a fairly sized bit of land just from caydes death.

Hive tithe to each other all the time.
Snuffing out light however appears to give a much bigger tribute

[hazy veldt]

Savathuns brood looking real nervous right now

[river surge]

Who was Sere trying to commune with

The Winnower or Tloen?

[frigid sparrow]

More than likely Tloen since it's more directly related to the taken

The winnower as far as we know isn't really as easy to commune with, it talks to us, not the other way around

[river surge]

Fair enough

As far as my knowledge

The Winnower only speaks to beings he is interested in

[river surge]

Also any chance for Aunor to be Bael mother?

I just simply find it too Star Wars like

To be actually true

[blazing wasp]

Unfeasible

[slim elk]

Remember:
It's the father whose secretly the main villain of Star Wars

[meager coral]

Bael’s mother is like a very new new light iirc

[dim minnow]

I think it was with VI

[river surge]

I fucking forgot that she got ressurected recently

[river surge]

No it couldnt be

[dim minnow]

Bael was trying to get more Dredgens who can bear a fraction of his pain

[river surge]

Since the voice was so strong it destroyed that psion mind

And that voice was also "a whisper in the darkness"

And who else is a whisper in the darkness

Either Tloen or Winnower

[dim minnow]

Bael tried to have psions connect to his mind, but VI's influence was too much for them

[river surge]

Yeah but Sere cant commune with VI at all

My biggest bet is that Sere made a connection with the Ascendant Plane and somehow got in contact with Tloen

Wasnt it stated that The Nine can commune with people that they desire to choose

Or through people

(I might be seriously wrong and I dont wanna continue 😅)

[gray lagoon]

so wuts the story behind xur's corner... did the vanguard finally notice his precense and make him a special place to chill or did he ask

[hidden pebble]

What’s Chrysura Melo’s lore about?

What song do the Corsairs need to worry about?

[trim grotto]

Savathun's Song.

It's an indicator of her influence

[hidden pebble]

I assume it’s nowhere on Spotify or Youtube?

[trim grotto]

It's more of a leitmotif. Remember the Witch Queen intro music? Or the funny meme song from Dawn? "I'm on the Moon... It's made of cheese."

We've heard it on and off for years. The most ominous case, in my opinion, was when the rioters and coup-attempters incorporated it into their chants during the Season of the Splicer.

[cobalt sonnet]

why does the traveler give ghosts to creatures that want to harm it?

[trim grotto]

You're referring to the Hive? Because the Witness stole their second chance from them in the past. Let me see if I can forward one of my older explanations rather than rewriting the whole thing on mobile.

The Traveler is a being of hope and grace. It's fallible, too. It can make mistakes. But it cares for those whom it tends to.

It also believes, above all else, in free will. This is why it never speaks, so that it will not influence us. It is why we are free to do as we wish, to support or betray Humanity and the Traveler as we see fit.

It is why the Lucent Hive can do this too.

[hallow horizon]

who are the hidden?

[jagged badge]

Spy/intelligence network set up by Ikora

Deal with internal City/Vanguard affairs and also with reconnaissance and gathering intel on our enemies to aid the Guardians will be the frontline when the threat comes

Ofc the Hidden are notably in the game in Witch Queen investigating the Enclave and then Savathûn’s Throne World and the Pyramid

[slow berry]

to be noted that the traveler didn't give ghosts to the hive, rather, bc of the traveler's ideal of influencing a little as possible, ghosts have their own free will and it was independent ghosts (specifically Immaru) that planned and carried out savathûn's death and resurrection

the traveler only did not stop it

[hallow horizon]

and then the hidden are also in possession of Oryx and other important stuff like that?

[hard sigil]

they recovered it for the Vanguard

[dim minnow]

I do think the Traveler has a say in who can be rezzed though

[hallow horizon]

finished the 10 hour light and darkness saga (before tfs) by byf now

"because you, are destiny" man that was fire

[slow berry]

i don't really know about that but independently of it, she could have had immaru remote detonated in a quintillion pieces if she wasn't fucking with it regardless, so she did give her tacit approval

[slim girder]

The traveler does have a say but we only have one instance of it doing this with Rhulk

That's the one time it has directly intervened

[slow berry]

petra has a higher count of ghosts remotely detonated in a violent explosion than the traveler

[cobalt sonnet]

if the Traveler values free will so much, is it willing to accept being destroyed as a result of that choice?

[trim grotto]

The Lucent Hive never tried to destroy it, only contain it, locking it within the Throne World of Savathun for themselves. Whether it would have acted... whether it could... is unknown.

The last time it acted in defiance of one so brazenly acting upon it, its shell shattered.

That said, a popular theory from Season of the Seraph was that it left the skies of the Last City and ascended into orbit so that, should the Warsats fire, the Last City would survive.

While unproven, it isn't without merit. It once shielded the Last City from the debris of the Almighty.

I imagine in an ideal scenario, one that wasn't within our Solar System, it would simply flee were it to be threatened directly. It fled from the Black Fleet for eons in much the same way.

[coral glen]

Is malfeasance considered a weapon of sorrow?

[slow berry]

Humans have been the closest to destroying the traveler and she hella did nothing about it with the warsats shining down on her besides, as Mael says, rising up a little bit

[queen swallow]

No

It doesn't do the poison

Like Thorn and Osteo Striga

[coral glen]

Neither does touch of malice if im correct but thats considered a weapons of sorrow

[trim grotto]

It technically does, just quite inefficiently.

But, no. Malfeasance is not a Weapon of Sorrow.

[coral glen]

Damn i thought it was

[trim grotto]

The Weapons of Sorrow are a strange bunch of weapons with a definition both extremely vague yet annoyingly specific - weaponry of Humanity afflicted by Hive curses, or minor variations thereof.

Malfeasance doesn't quality. It is fuelled by Taken power, but was constructed from scratch by Drifter/Shin/Us/3rd era Dredgens

In my personal opinion, I'd say the biggest factor of what makes a WoS a WoS is... hunger. They're almost alive in a way, and wish for death. Osteo Striga literally consumes bones.

[dim minnow]

hunger...

do you think there's a link between Elcipse energy and Weapons of Sorrow?

[trim grotto]

I have no idea, I've been too busy with work and holiday stuff to play Renegades.

[coral glen]

Ima be real i thought shin was dead

[dim minnow]

he's kinda retired

but it's believed that he will come back to respond to the Dredgen fuckery bael is trying at

[trim grotto]

Nah, he's just retired. He actually worked alongside Drifter to get us to begin Gambit, make Malfeasance, Thorn, use Darkness without corruption.

Leading to Stasis, to Strand, to Prismatic, to saving the universe. Gambit wins again.

[dim minnow]

it's gonna be pretty funny if Shin and his gang pull to only to get mogged on by Bael's guys

[coral glen]

He’s always confused me to my understanding he wasn’t actually a guardian yet bro goldies dredgens for giggles

[trim grotto]

He was. Well, he was resurrected by a Ghost, anyway.

Not a "Guardian" per se insomuch as he isn't directly of our faction, but he is a Risen.

[coral glen]

Wasn’t he a fetus inside of a woman who got resurrected?

[trim grotto]

No, he was a baby who was resurrected.

That's never happened.

[coral glen]

Nah bro that’s messed up

[trim grotto]

Not within context. Would you like the story? It's quite touching.

[coral glen]

Id love to hear it

Honestly if i was a ghost id rez oryx for entertainment

[hard sigil]

well Savathûn's brood... tried tht

not very successfully

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/confession-of-hope-part-one
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/confession-of-hope-part-two

[coral glen]

Well im pretty sure they were trying to force a ghost to do it i could be wrong

[trim grotto]

Yesn't
'twas a Hive Ghost so it probably wanted to do it

It's frankly unclear whether it could have. It was an entire ritual of necromancy and Light. Personally, I'm not so sure, but we damn sure didn't want to gamble on it.

[coral glen]

If i couldn’t rez mr oryx id try junior that would be funnier eris would cry

Id choose chaos

[trim grotto]

No dice. Crota's very soul essence is gone.

We sort of disrupted his "funeral".

[coral glen]

Damn maybe we are the mean ones

[blazing wasp]

I'd say it was pretty justified of us-

[trim grotto]

Crota was responsible for a few hundred dead Guardians. And... y'know, many many xenocides.

[coral glen]

Yeth however im pretty sure we have killed alot more hive

Maybe they just upset

[trim grotto]

For a Guardian-to-Hive ratio, sure. But once you factor in the trillions of other species...

[dim minnow]

ok, go walk to the nearest thrall and try and have a civil conversation with it

I'm sure it'll end well

[trim grotto]

"Spot of tea, sir?"
"RAAAHGAHHGAWGHGHAGAHHG"

[coral glen]

Thats like trying to speak to a todler can i at least talk to an acolyte or knight/wizard😭

Tbh

We need more hive like Luzaku

[dim minnow]

you'd get a similar result

[coral glen]

I wanna be the hives friend is that to much to ask

[blazing wasp]

We haven't

We could multiply our kill count by a billion and it's probable we'd have less of a kill count.

Its important to emphasize crota is old, and has wiped out solar systems

[coral glen]

Whaaa-

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/deafening-whisper
Admittedly, they're smarter than Thrall, but

wEaPoN

[blazing wasp]

The hive aren't strangers to Xenocide

Its more like a 9-5 for them.

[coral glen]

Question

[dim minnow]

probably 52

[trim grotto]

42. Honestly, Dova.

[blazing wasp]

I'm with mael here

[coral glen]

In your opinion which of the three is arguably the nicer one oryx xivu or savathun

[dim minnow]

that's a hard one

[coral glen]

Oryx in navigator version seemed chill asf

[dim minnow]

neither are particularly pleasant, at least not from our perspective

[blazing wasp]

Towards us... Maybe savathun, not that she's nice

Just... Nicest?

[coral glen]

I think Xivu is straight up the worst she’s got issues

[trim grotto]

Nicer?
Auryx was originally, but that was long long ago.
Savathun by technicality, as she cut herself off from the need to feed off of death, and instead lived off of trickery. Her interactions weren't... immediately deadly.

[coral glen]

How about most morally green

Who would you let baby sit your dog

[trim grotto]

They die if they don't commit murder or if their network of death tribute falls apart.

Savathun aside.

Like, morality is, uh

Dead

[blazing wasp]

Is neither an option

[coral glen]

LMAO

[blazing wasp]

I mean all three are kinda dipshits

Just a different style of horrible people to us

[coral glen]

Yeahhhh i just think theyre dip shits in different ways

[trim grotto]

Sav's the kind of person to return your dog but she also cursed it to change your wifi password and also explode when you first bring a date home

[coral glen]

Xivu would just eat it

There is nothing i want more than to see Xivu in person and throw hands

[dim minnow]

Xivu is also kinda the Hive God of Love

[coral glen]

…

[slim girder]

Savathun is that friend who rage baits you everyday.
Xivu is the person who breaks stuff you lend them.
And Oryx is the guy who borrows your car and then when they give back there's no petrol left.

[coral glen]

Love…

[dim minnow]

since to the Hive love and war go hand in hand

again, you gotta keep in mind that Hive morality is VERY different from ours

[trim grotto]

by an extreme technicality

[slim girder]

I love you so I will wage war on you so that you become stronger

[trim grotto]

"What is love? Baby please hurt me"

[coral glen]

The hive have always been my fav faction since the very first time i got jumped by thrall in d1

[dim minnow]

now see, I actually do think that from Savathun's perspective, she was genuinely being helpful

[slim girder]

The siblings have a rivalry to them and always have. Both have killed each other many times over

[slim girder]

Savathun has never seen what she's doing as wrong though. Her actions against us she even thinks are right.

[coral glen]

If we never killed Crota do you think he could of surpassed Oryx?

[dim minnow]

eh, Oryx was kinda allergic to having his own family one-up him

didn't mean he didn't want Crota to try though

[slim girder]

Oryx wouldn't have let him.

Hell I'd even go so far as to say Oryx might've even "took" crota for him to grow stronger

[trim grotto]

Maybe. But I doubt Oryx would be so ignorant to his child trying to usurp him. He had a long time of dealing with his far stronger siblings.

That said, Crota did also command a large part of Oryx's Tribute network.

[coral glen]

Bro am i dumb i though Oryx was the strongest of the three

[dim minnow]

I think he was, at the time

but killing him effectively allowed his siblings to grow even further

[trim grotto]

There was a time where that was the case. But it was a scheme between the three of them to slay Akka.

[slim girder]

There isn't a "strongest" one really. It's all a bit technical

[trim grotto]

Also true. It depends on the... battlefield.

[slim girder]

And Oryx was but only as part of a plan

[dim minnow]

Oryx did cripple his sisters' tribute networks

[slim girder]

Oryx did kill his siblings to forge the dreadnaught as well. They have helped each other through their own deaths

[coral glen]

The more questions i ask the more i realize how wack of a family they got

They should just sing Christmas carols and be happy

[slim girder]

The hive siblings have always had a very weird relationship not just with each other but the universe in general even

And this all stemmed from that pact they made with the worm gods

[trim grotto]

Well, if Xivu doesn't commit herself to War, or if her network system of death fails to feed her Worm Parasite, that Parasite will consume her.
So it was for all the siblings and their natures, until Savathun changed the nature of her tribute and eventually exorcised the Worm, leading to her death and resurrection.

And until Oryx died. Obviously.

[coral glen]

Ive always been a more gameplay focused person and not really lore person so sorry if this question is dumb but as long as they aren’t killed in their throne they keep coming back right?

[trim grotto]

That's right, yes. Though it isn't always a simple matter, it takes ritual.

Oryx's Throne, if you're wondering, was the Dreadnaught. He inverted it from the Ascendant Realm into real space to keep it mobile and defended, after Crota was tricked by Savathun into cutting through a dimensional barrier and allowing the Vex to invade it, causing a war only ended by Oryx's own return.

[coral glen]

Can any hive technically obtain a throne if they feed their worm enough or is that a unique thing to the big three and their direct children

[slim girder]

Correct.
This makes hive gods extremely resilient.
And savathun especially is considered the most resilient character in Destiny rn due to her also having a ghost

[trim grotto]

Any could, in theory. Hiraks the Mindbender even had one - one of the Scorned Barons who slew Cayde-6.

[slim girder]

Any hive can do it but it requires a massive amount of tribute. And many already do but nothing like the gods throne worlds

Kelgorath has a small one I believe
Toland the shattered has whats basically a throne world version of dumpster

[coral glen]

Is it a unique thing to hive or practitioners of the sword logic in general?

[coral glen]

This answers that

[trim grotto]

Sword Logic is not in-and-of-itself a source of power, it is simply a system of belief.

[slim girder]

Not exactly.
Mara sov created one through other means

[coral glen]

Damn where’s my guardians throne

We be killing everybody lmao

[trim grotto]

First, consume a Parasite Worm and make peace with the fact that if you cannot sustain its increasing hunger, you die.

[slim girder]

No worm to give tribute to

No throne world

[coral glen]

Maybe our throne is the people we put in guns along the way

[slim girder]

Savathun and mara sov are the only ones who managed to circumvent this rule

[coral glen]

Mara is a cheater

Smh

[slim girder]

Mara had Riven

[trim grotto]

Sword Logic is not a source of power. It is a system of belief, a simple beast of might makes right, and those who die deserve to be dead.

The Worm Gods, and the Parasite Worms, are the direct source of the Hive's power - feed the Parasites with ontological death, and they grant the Host with ontological power.

[slim girder]

A creature who could bend basically anything to its will

Wish magic is dangerously powerful

[trim grotto]

If the simple act of believing yourself superior generated a Throne World, we'd be the gods of the Ascendant Plane by now.

[coral glen]

If i was in the destiny universe as a guardian i wouldn’t last long the praxics would kill me so quickly

[trim grotto]

They typically prefer to detain, these days.

Or, uh, they are told to detain.

They do not prefer it.

[coral glen]

Another thing of lore that has my interest fully peaked is whatever is under Chicago

I hope it’s something hive related

[trim grotto]

That's just Dova
He gets cranky without coffee

[slim girder]

It's just Lodis old cat

Or a giant sewer rat

[trim grotto]

Some rogue ROUS

[coral glen]

From what i saw in a byf video whatever it was scared the crap out of Shayura

It hunted down fireteams one by one

[trim grotto]

never heard of him

[slim girder]

I saw that video. Not to put byf down but I think he slightly misinterpreted Shayuras fear if this creature.
It wasn't the creature itself but it was because in that moment they were hunting the creature ghauls cage cut off the light.

[coral glen]

Yikes

What crappy timing

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/howlers-den-gasp-shock-star-trek-gif-498338148729931701

[slim girder]

She was afraid because now she genuinely could have died as did the fireteams that creature picked off

[trim grotto]

byf misinterpreting? oh my

[trim grotto]

something something forgotten the fear of death

[coral glen]

I still like byf cause i have a hard time reading so having someone else do it for me in sort of story format is nice then i can form my own opinions from that

[slim girder]

Even Shayura says it was frightening going from hunters to hunted. The creature was already smart but now her and those fireteams had no light and no way to defend themselves

[coral glen]

I hope the next dlc bring us to Chicago i wanna know what it is so bad

[trim grotto]

she car go? well, only if she can't plane go

[coral glen]

Shayura obviously knows what hive look like so it cant be hive i just don’t know what else it could be

[slim girder]

Well it does look like we'll be going there very soon. Either the next expansion shattered cycle or the one after. The Alchemist

[coral glen]

I wonder if it’s something man made cause isn’t the exact place it’s under where graviton was created

[slim girder]

Well it's probably very dark in those crypts or labyrinth as IV called it.
It could definitely be hive not doubting but if it can talk to Lodi and the nine know of it, it's definitely something unique

Lodi has seen through its eyes as he puts it

He's seen it trying to claw its way out or something

[coral glen]

I wanna turn it into a gun

[hard sigil]

saw a Reddit post theorising it's a dinosaur the nine pulled forward

which would be very funny

[slim girder]

Chicago gator

Gotta be

[coral glen]

I feel like multiple fire teams would shit on a dinosaur faster than they would a above average hive knight

[hard sigil]

nah it's like a cool mutant paracausal dinosaur

[coral glen]

A dinosaur with a hive worm

[slim girder]

We'll just have to see. All we know is it's intelligent, is related to the nine somehow and it lives or is trying to get out of the crypts below Old Chicago.
Also has been given the nickname The Chicago King.

Props to the ghost community theatre.
Bael has also been researching it

[hard sigil]

she car go king? why does she need to see the king?

[slim girder]

[trim grotto]

well she can't just walk up to the king, there's protocol

[coral glen]

Bael is a stinker

[hard sigil]

my guess for the actual thing Lodi is talking about is a dead body. He said it feels the same as it did channelling III, who is also a dead body

talked about stiff joints and whatnot

[coral glen]

What even happened to three

Why is bro dead

[slim girder]

He did say it was clawing though. Like he's "sideways"

[slim girder]

Maya killed them

[coral glen]

Who put poison in his cereal

[coral glen]

Thats rude

How did she manage that

I refuse to play edge of fate

[hard sigil]

what happens when you try to compress a human being down so they can live inside a two dimensional plane?

[slim girder]

Maya wanted III to switch places of earth from the golden age with the earth of today.
That is impossible but Maya doesn't take no for an answer so in anger she murdered III

[coral glen]

Well im no expert but ill have to say not great things

[hard sigil]

you ever read flatland

kinda like that

[blazing wasp]

Have you ever played lugis mansion

[slim girder]

@coral glen i know you said you didn't want to but playing EoF would make a lot of this stuff clear

It is the beginning of the whole saga after all

[trim grotto]

loogy

[coral glen]

I tried bro i hate it so much

[blazing wasp]

Fuck

[slim girder]

Why? Couldn't have been that bad

[hard sigil]

anyway a more eloquent way is how Lodi describes it; "Like trying to live in a painting". the Nine are fourth dimensional beings In Maya's attempt to force III to her will, she pulled it into the third dimension, killing it

[coral glen]

I just despise matterspark and the planet design

[slim girder]

With all due respect matterspark ain't that bad.
I know it's not popular for some but it's not like matterspark is a reason to hate the whole expansion

[hard sigil]

some people just can't rock it in the hamsterball

[slim girder]

I'm probably in the minority but I had a lot of fun with matterspark

[hard sigil]

my only issue with matterspark is that it's too slow

[slim girder]

I like being ball

[hard sigil]

I want it to be as fast as a sparrow

[coral glen]

Ill finish eof eventually it’s just a slow process

[hard sigil]

if we're a ball of sentient arc energy I wanna feel electric

[slim girder]

I think part of my love is also because I love lightning surge.

I'm used to transforming into a lil lightning ball

[coral glen]

Its past my bedtime but thank you all for all the insight and lore i must sleep now cause it is 6:40 in the morning

[slim girder]

Gn

[fringe sundial]

mayas actually so infuriating

i have never hated a destiny villain as much as i hate maya

except maybe clovis

[slim girder]

Then she's doing her job as a villain

[fringe sundial]

i know

[slim girder]

She is a ruthless vision driven psycho who is willing to murder cosmic entities to get what she's after

[fringe sundial]

shes a lot more human than the witness

which i think works in her favor

cause a lot of the villains we've had are like

cosmic forces of nature

with very limited character

[slim girder]

She has depth like Bael since she is just a person albeit empowered by another force

[fringe sundial]

i havent played renegades

so idk about bael

and i dont want to

[slim girder]

No spoilers but Baels backstory and drive is very interesting

He is still def a bad dude though

[slim girder]

We don't have any lore on how engrams were made right?
For the longest time I always thought engrams or programmable matter in general came as a result of golden age research into the vex.

[hard sigil]

they are programmable matter

but they're Braytech tech

[slim girder]

Considering they are also capable of "digitising" things.
Scientists must have replicated it in their own way and engrams and glimmer came to be.

[slim girder]

I knew that part.
Again it's just something I've always thought that we studied the vex digitising things and then through that managed to make our own version of it.
Engrams and glimmer

[hard sigil]

yeah I imagine if the collapse didn't happen we'd have reverse engineered the vexnet

[river surge]

We'd become even more immortals

[river surge]

The Witness was not meant to be human at all

It was simply a driven force of Darkness that was meant to be the end of all suffering

With a single purpose

Nothing else

No thoughts, nothing

[queen swallow]

The Witness very much had thoughts

[hollow drum]

what actually is the praxic vault and why is it made of pyramid architecture

[high knot]

I thought it was weird that the praxic vault uses pyramid architecture as well

[hallow horizon]

So who were all the disciples of the witness?

I know Nezarac and Rhulk and that's about it

[blazing wasp]

We don't actually know

We know there were several

[hallow horizon]

Wait what

That's kinda surprising

[blazing wasp]

We have had a lore tab about an unknown disciple

Where it ponders the final shape

That's about it?

[hallow horizon]

I wonder if we'll ever know

[river surge]

Unknown how many they were but we know Rhulk, Nezarec, and a lore tab of a disciple that attacked Mayas team

Which made them crash on Neomuna

[hallow horizon]

Wasn't Calus a disciple or nah

[river surge]

And Calus

Yeah

Well Calus was more like a replace

Rather than a disciple

[hallow horizon]

Ah

[river surge]

Rhulk was the Witness best disciple and strongest

Imo

He is top 5 strongest enemies we have ever fought

In Destiny

His arrogance was the main reason why he died in the first place

In the last seconds when he realised he is dying, thats when he tried to kill us with full intent and that full intent couldve been our main downfall

[fringe sundial]

the one from winterbite

[frigid sparrow]

we don't know exactly what it was

[fringe sundial]

fair

[rigid flower]

Just read Heirloom's lore tab and now I'm curious.

Are Harrow's Praxic blades considered Weapons of Sorrow?

[hard sigil]

apparently so

which kinda calls into question what quantifies a weapon of sorrow

generally they were originally just weapons that were modified with hive magic in various ways

[rigid flower]

Well, I assume he modified the Praxic Blades he had with taken energy no?

Not sure how that ened up making them void weapons.

And if Oryx's words are flexed, the Taken magic I guess could be considered Hive magic?

[queen swallow]

Uh new sunless cell dialog from heresy would be relevant

I think

Something from Heresy about how all the Taken are Hive?

[hard sigil]

that's more oryx proclaiming that the taken are an extension of him, and he is hive, making them hive too

[dim minnow]

Taken power is distinct from Hive magic, it's just that Oryx was a large practitioner of it

[hard sigil]

it seems harrows blades are just powered by vague darkness that manifests into void energy

might be a hive spell powering them?

our blades work by using the dark matter crystals as a focusing lense for light and dark energies

[rigid flower]

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about the fact that they're dark matter.

[hard sigil]

so by projecting void energy through it I guess its feasible

[rigid flower]

Something that also catches my eye is the fact that it states the blades were solar before he "bled" them.

[hard sigil]

there's also the distinct chance that it's more larping and they're just calling them weapons of sorrow

bael just read about dredgens using weapons of sorrow and decided it's a title to be given to a weapon

[rigid flower]

I don't think it's larping. They weren't called "Blades of Sorrow" in dialogue.

[slim girder]

Bael has adopted the title but he does still know what a weapon of sorrow actually is. Harrows blades fit the bill. Human made weapons twisted by darkness

In this case the blades changed from a solar yellow to a void purple

[hard sigil]

yeah I know I'm just speculating on what exact mechanism caused that change

[slim girder]

I would assume taken power. Many references in the lore that the dredgens are currently experimenting with it. Sere going so far as to create a mini throne world. And these "shadows" they talk about a lot

In harrows case it was using those shadows and taken energy to corrupt his blades taken from 2 praxic order members

[hard sigil]

yeah I guess if it can give sere sparky hands it can do that

[slim girder]

I think the main point to take from all this is the dredgens are evolving. Bael is just the one who started that chain and with the help of VI has built an army and is recruiting/teaching new dredgens

Obviously this is a star wars expansion but outside of renegades they could def do a lot more crazy things

Create new weapons of sorrow, gain new powers, etc and now we have cabal dredgens

[hard sigil]

makes me worried that the hive foundry they're trying to find is going to let them mass produce weapons of sorrow

[slim girder]

That's the theory of what Bael is looking for on Luna

According to Sere he's looking for hidden "truths"

So it could also pertain to the Luna pyramid still there. Also the temple of crota/hellmouth is still a massive complex that we haven't fully explored yet

Would bet money that weapons are crafted inside some areas of it

[eager trout]

when you realize one of the Equilibrium encounters is basically a Star Wars hallway scene

[slim girder]

Mhm

[dim minnow]

The entire dungeon is just a hallway scene from the Rebels perspective to the Imperium

Like, imagine you hear your ground crew got annihilated so you send your ship into NLS hoping to get away only to find they got on your ship

[frozen pawn]

*raise hand

For the Sword Logic, if we apply our guardian case, shouldn't we on the top of the food chain by now?

Or It only applied for anyone who actually follow that logic in the first place? -> this part kinda confusing for me

[slim girder]

A lot of our enemies have posed the idea that we follow that logic.
However us defending others who can't, making alliances and also being able to come back from death is considered heresy to the sword logic

Sure we could definitely be the top of that "food chain" but we don't mindlessly kill to prove our strength in the universe.

[hard sigil]

like mael has said a few times over the last couple days, the sword logic is a philosophy, the actual power that comes with it is derived from the Worm Gods and Anthem Anathema

[frozen pawn]

ohh

[hard sigil]

if we applied it to ourselves and had a worm god who could power it, yes

to answer your question

[frozen pawn]

wait, does Eris have a Worm God O_O?

[hard sigil]

Eris attained her Hive Morph and ascended to godhood through a binding pact with Ahsa, but doing so put a heavy strain on the protoworm

[frozen pawn]

oh

[hard sigil]

we do technically participate in sword logic whenever wielding the Whisper of the Worm because it fuels Xol's technical existence

[frozen pawn]

isn't he the weakest one

but yeah

I almost forgot that we have Ahsa on our side

ty

[river surge]

Xol aura farming for us killing Oryx 100 times with Whisper

[river surge]

She a good girl, I wanna make an aquarium for her in the last city can we do that?

[frozen pawn]

she's too big for an aquarium

xD

[slim girder]

Prolly not safe if the great lakes have been acting up. Who knows what might be going on in the ocean

[river surge]

Godzilla

[river surge]

I kinda want something that we actually save The Last City

From something

From Earth

From the ocean or something

A monster of some sort

[frigid sparrow]

maya sundaresh came from earth

[river surge]

Shes an abomination

[frigid sparrow]

and we stopped her invading the tower

[river surge]

That dosent count

Maya Sundaresh can go back to Neomuna and study the Veil

I want something better

[coral glen]

Do we know who the original owner/creator of hawkmoon is

[river surge]

I am not expert in lore weapons but I think its related to Crow

It belonged to a Guardian but we never know who it is

[meager coral]

I want to tame the old Chicago monster as a pet

[river surge]

And that monster is somehow Mahoraga from JJK

💀

Eh we Guardians can one shot him

A single nova bomb and he is gone

And I think that our only win condition

[trim grotto]

The original one? No.
The modern one? The Traveler forged it for Crow.

[river surge]

So I was a bit right

[slim girder]

Hawkmoon originally was a PS exclusive weapon so making it big in the lore probably wasn't going to happen

Hawkmoons lore really began back with crow and season of the hunt

[hazy veldt]

https://youtu.be/NSCLOPqruyQ?si=G398iLRVqbv7g2Vu

I’m tired boss

don’t give me hope

[river surge]

Nezarec was always meant to be back tho

I mean he is immortal

[hazy veldt]

He is but

I’m praying that if he’s ever back

please don’t do him dirty again

[river surge]

Nezarec was never done dirty

First time he was betrayed and killed

[hazy veldt]

character with 2nd biggest build up in d2 history

[hazy veldt]

Done dirty 1x

[river surge]

Second time he simply just came back with a whole new body and new powers that he wasnt aware of

[hazy veldt]

Then he got resurrected and insta-killed as an infant in weakest raid (I’m not counting raid lair shit)

Then he got inside mithrax (he was kinda there since plunder afaik)

[river surge]

Savathun style

[hazy veldt]

And aborted by echo of riis

Done dirty 3x

Boy never been shining since pre-collapse😭 😭 😭

[river surge]

Yeah but

He literally outlived The Witness

Nezarec will always be there

Dirty or not

[hazy veldt]

Hell if I knew I’d be done like that every time I re-surface I wouldn’t be happy to live

[river surge]

He enjoys that tho

[hazy veldt]

As I have already said before nezzy is most neglected character lore-wise

[river surge]

Maybe he was never meant to be relevant at all

Just a side character in our way to save the universe

[hazy veldt]

how can you have title like “the purest light, the darkest hour” and then get infanticided

😭 😭

[hazy veldt]

mind u maya killed a GOD

Literally season villain at best

[river surge]

Maya had a tantrum

Lets not forget

If u bring them in our 3D plane

They are mortal

Meaning they can be killed

[hazy veldt]

yeah except

It’s by no means an easy feat

[river surge]

Well, uh