📚lore-discussion

[sick yew]

It really depends how you personally interpret other unnamed guardians we team up with all the time

[river surge]

The thing is

When we defeated The Witness

We didnt actually needed prismatic in order to unmake it, by simply destroying the statues and channeling light through our ghost

Light was essentially the main component on defeating it

We did had to unmake it tho

Making it weak

[sick yew]

Its pretty obvious that it was only us aka The Player™ who did the fancy light beam with their ghost and the other randos in the mission are supposed to be the Guardians who showed up for the big fight in the opening cutscene

[river surge]

We in cannon are called "Young Wolf" right?

[sick yew]

That sorta depends

Some characters refer to us as the Young Wolf in general
Others only if you play on a Veteran account

[hard sigil]

we've got like a bunch of titles

[lofty jackal]

coming back to destiny 2 and hearing a diffrnt voice actor for zavala, feels so bad...

[river surge]

We are kinda the John Wick of Destiny

They send guardians but when it comes to hard missions they send us

[sick yew]

Ay man no shade to Keith David

[hard sigil]

eh closer to just a really reliable front line soldier

[sick yew]

Its different obviously because you cannot replace Lance Reddick but imo Keith did a good job especially in Final Shape

[lofty jackal]

they just gotta tell us that we can make the enemy into an legendary weapon.

[hard sigil]

we're extremely adaptable and have a tendency to be the battering ram for stronger forces

[river surge]

Also immortality

[sick yew]

We do be the "guy you send in to get shit done no questions asked"

[hard sigil]

very much a jack of all trades

[lofty jackal]

just came back after 6 years, i only knew the voice of OG zavala and the way he spoke after the first imperium quest, doesnt feel like the Zavala i know.

[sick yew]

Its a drastic switch for sure
I recommend you play through Final Shape I personally was pretty fine with him by the end

[lofty jackal]

even the line itself, an uncertainty in the voice, while Zavala is always straight and knows what he stands for etc

maybe its my hand rn

[hard sigil]

that's more because of Zavala's character development

and.. certain things that have happened

let's just say he's been less sure of what he stands for recently

[sick yew]

Well Zavala went through a very drastic character development during and following Final Shape

it makes sense for him to act the way he does

[river surge]

Also

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU MEAN SHAXX CSN SEND THE FBI TO ANYONES HOUSE

💀

Mael told me some crazy lore yesterday, I still cant believe The Vanguard are THIS dangerous

If u mess with them

[hard sigil]

well he is everyone's husband it makes sense

[sick yew]

There are Praxic agents outside of my house!!!!!!

[river surge]

[sick yew]

"Local Guardian gets swatted because they said the Crucible was too sweaty"

[river surge]

Tex Mechanica building on their roof with 4 Titans ready to blast it with Thundercrash

[sick yew]

Imagine some Titan busting your door down with a thunderclap

[river surge]

Titans now got jetpacks 💀

Even worse

[sick yew]

https://tenor.com/view/jackass-3d-couch-explosion-gif-25176966

[lofty jackal]

ye i saw that and im like wasnt it that the warlocks had that?

why do i have a jetpack?

[sick yew]

us Titans are just cooler

[river surge]

Fr

We the best

[lofty jackal]

also i remember when i used to shield bash and i insta killed an small enemy i could shield bash again

is that gone now too?

[sick yew]

You can do that with an exotic

I forgot the name but theres a shoulder charge exotic that lets you do it tho it might only be bigger enemies now? I dont remember

[modern lodge]

Mael you got any cool praxic lore to drop

[slim girder]

Peregrine greaves?

[sick yew]

You tell me man

[slim girder]

Yeah must be.

[slim girder]

Peregrine greaves will still offer that fantasy and you'll be killing basically any big target you aim at.

That damage bonus is 400%

[lofty jackal]

You sir are a wonderful being in this universe

Providing such information to a mortal as me

Thank you kindly

[slim girder]

A lil extra.
If you combine it with offensive bulwark then that melee damage doubles.
This has been tested and one shots even unstoppable champions that aren't stunned.

All you gotta do is run for bit, jump to activate and then shoulder charge.

[west tree]

Can vouch

[river surge]

The Gardener is The Traveler but is The Traveler The Gardener

[sick yew]

Why is it called oven when you-

[river surge]

[ember storm]

Oh right I changed my about me the joke doesn’t work anymore

[slim girder]

You bake cookies, but cook bacon.
Make it make sense

[slow berry]

They do be like

The government

The government can send FBI agents to your house

[slim girder]

It's not really the vanguard though. Shaxx has his own level of authority in the tower/city.

People have asked why shaxx or even saint isn't with us out in the system fighting given how strong they are and the reason is because they are truly the city's strongest guardians

[ember storm]

Also shaxx basically put himself in this position

He’s not going anywhere until he feels like new lights are equipped enough to fend for themselves

[mortal wind]

Ikora straight up has magic secret police

Though Bael is a lil' silly considering there's a whole council that the vanguard has to defer to, made up of humans

[jagged badge]

If you mean the Consensus, that’s been gone

The Consensus was made up of the faction leaders, the Speaker and the Vanguard. The speaker died and the factions were exiled/left after their attempted coup

So it is just the Vanguard as the de facto leaders of the City

[sick yew]

Heres me praying for another civil war because honestly its a pretty neat concept that I wish got more lore attention when it happened back in the day

[mortal wind]

I thought the foundries took over for the faction leaders

Since they kinda control the economy

[river surge]

Maybe now with this new extinction something will happen

[mortal wind]

I mean if we had to have any immortal god-emporer of mankind

everyone kinda agrees zavala is the best

[jagged badge]

They do seem to be building up this idea of civilian disillusionment and unrest with the Guardians

[blazing wasp]

the vanguards ended up being the leaders of the city not of their own volition

[jagged badge]

Have you read the Deimosuffusion lore?

[blazing wasp]

should probably start trying for elections for political matters though, vanguard didnt really intend on being politicians

[sick yew]

Well to be fair they have been sorta doing this for quite a while but it does seem to be on another high point

[mortal wind]

I mean the power of darkness means that paracausal powers are within anyone's grasp

Which like I wonder still why exactly that is

[blazing wasp]

not just anyone can use darkness, humans, awoken and exos appear to have an innate ability to do it better

[mortal wind]

Oh yeah I read it first as a fearing the big superweapon moment

[blazing wasp]

we dont quite know why, its actually a mystery savathun pondered at a point in time

[mortal wind]

I didn't think think about it as not trusting guardians as much

[mortal wind]

Oh its brought up specifically as a humanity thing?

intrestin'

[blazing wasp]

humans do it better

theyre not the only ones who can

it just appears to not be that easily accessible to others

[mortal wind]

I didn't mean to imply anything of the sort

[blazing wasp]

i know

we've seen eliksni use stasis. I dont quite count the strand thing since its on their weapons rather than them just "wielding" it

[mortal wind]

Bael is cool for stealin' a guardian weapon, learning stasis, and 1v1ing an immortal Guardian

[slim girder]

Eramis definitely seemed to have a pretty good grasp on it. Although this was power given by the witness.

[mortal wind]

Idk about pretty good grasp

She did end up kinda, getting frozen lol

[blazing wasp]

then given part was one of my biggest "Winnower obviously =/= witness" early on during TWQ

[river surge]

The difference is that The Witness had knowledge over stasis and knew how to instruct Eramis to use it

It even gave it to us

Bael learned it out of pure desperation

Being lightless is just a misery knowing you could die any second

[ember storm]

Eramis never actually used stasis

She had a gauntlet which malfunctioned and froze her

The second that the technocrat died she started losing control

[slim girder]

She used it to save mithrax during season of defiance.
And prior to that used it when fighting mithrax before escaping

[ember storm]

With a gauntlet

She never uses stasis

[mortal wind]

we took it

[river surge]

Without The Witness telling us we wouldve never known

Btw

[mortal wind]

Elsie bray?

It's a whole plot point

That we dont just accept given stasis powers

but take the initiative to take them

unlike the dark future

[river surge]

The Witness did in fact told us to, so we did take it

[slim girder]

Well I mean stasis at least from what we've seen does require a splinter.
Eramis and the dark priestess both got splinters. And Elsie gave us one as well until we learned to use it without the splinter.
Something to also note is eramis smashed her own splinter during beyond lights campaign.
Yet she was still able to use stasis afterwards.

[river surge]

With or without Elsie

[mortal wind]

And then we yknow use stasis without any assisting bits to beat eramis

[ember storm]

That was ours

She stole our splinter and smashed it to freeze us solid

It’s after that when we get our “the darkness is inside you all along” and break free

That was the entire point of the campaign

[slim girder]

No this was before that moment when she was speaking to the other "barons" and she lost her temper

Where she told atraks to "prepare the body" and then the dark priestess (forgot her name) told eramis they should attack. She then smashed her splinter in anger

[ember storm]

She never smashed anything, that’s the gauntlet failing due to her lack of control

The splinter is right there after

https://youtu.be/xPxVmT0ijtk?si=SLvSh37AOdIWAmvY

She also uses one as a necklace

[slim girder]

Ahh yes I see now. My mistake then.
But my point still stands that she can use stasis and did even after beyond light. Her gauntlet is similar in function to mithraxs splicer gauntlet.

[ember storm]

Because the gauntlet just has a splinter

She never uses it on her own, none of the salvation council does, they all use splinters with technology

[blazing wasp]

oh, i was mistaken it seems

[mortal wind]

Someone should make a Strand and Stasis school

Like a dojo

Imagine if those guards with their hats and guns guarding guardians at the tower pulled out a penumbral blast

Earth retaken in a week

[vagrant whale]

Completely "out there" thought, don't know if it's been brought up before - could III be planning/hoping on being Risen?

[mortal wind]

uhhh

like, by a ghost?

[vagrant whale]

Yeah

Or maybe the Traveler directly, who knows

[frigid sparrow]

Already did

We revived it using the haul

[dapper kayak]

wait, we revived III?

[frigid sparrow]

Temporarily

[vagrant whale]

Yeah, but that was short-term. I'm talking full resurrection

[frigid sparrow]

Not possible

[orchid folio]

do we know who his mama guardian is? or was that made up?

[frigid sparrow]

Y'know, getting killed by a regular ass guy is a major anti-feat for an acolyte

Especially since it was already a lightbearer at that point lmao

[slow berry]

problem with that: fucking up while using strand Desintegrates you

it Removes You From Physical Reality

[mortal wind]

Thats why they need a school

So people don't mess up

Messing up at gun school also removes you from physical reality

[slow berry]

idk if you've been to a school in a while but schools are specifically designed for messing up

[slow berry]

Allison said we could've saved III entirely but we were missing exactly (1) one guardian playing more gambit

maybe that's why there's no gambit anymore rn, they need III to be dead and if we revived it early it'd screw up the expansion roadmap

[mortal wind]

Depends on how important the school is

Schools I've been around lately at least assume a certain level of competency

Like my example with guns, it's not exactly designed with you looking down the barrel in mind

[fringe wasp]

Is malfeasance capable of killing guardians like weapons of sorrow considering drifter created it against shin in mind

[frigid sparrow]

drifter created it with shin in mind, since he intended on preparing a fireteam to use it

[fringe wasp]

Oh so it was for and not against? Don't know if i mixed it up

[frigid sparrow]

it was against shin

It'll be a lot safer with you wearin' one of these. It's the culmination of a lot of things. Long time ago I set out to find a replacement for a weapon called Thorn. This will never be that, but to me, it's better. We built it together.

And all of us, with this in hand? Even the Man with the Golden Gun should have pause.

Maybe we can't out-shoot him. Maybe he can't be out-shot. But if we all take our shot together? We don't have to beat him to it.

He'll die, too.

Remember this. For when the day comes.

—The Drifter

[paper gorge]

Do the dwarf planets have souls like the 9 , like Neptune, ceres , etc ?

[frigid sparrow]

neptune isn't a dwarf planet

and is VIII

[paper gorge]

Sorry I meant Pluto

And what about the moon ?

[frigid sparrow]

the moon isn't a planet

I am also going to immediately say something contradictory and mention that IX itself is the sun

[orchid folio]

Alison is the best and one of Bungie's remaining shinning lights

pun intended

[paper gorge]

Oh yeah I forgot the moon isn't a planet , I thought , the Sun was like 0 or something

[slow berry]

The Sun is IX

Remember that it's celestial bodies with large gravitational fields that compose the Nine

0 is the asteroid belt, which is a lot of scattered rocks that could've been a member of the Nine if they were together instead

Theia is a member of the Nine that they mourn - the planet that crashed into Earth and formed Luna

[orchid folio]

have spoiler embargos lifted yet?

[dapper kayak]

they lifted days ago

[orchid folio]

cool

||who or what Escathon?||

[mortal wind]

I have no idea whats that

[orchid folio]

VI mentions it in the first Drifter cutscene when he talking through Bael

[hard sigil]

ancient greek for End Of The World

the eschaton is the end times

[orchid folio]

oh, I thought it was the name of the next big bad

[queen swallow]

The word itself is derived from Ancient Greek but the concept is not from that time period

[alpine haven]

and then what, kill the mortal?

[frigid sparrow]

it is

[orchid folio]

sacrifce

[hard sigil]

not necessarily. Lodi noticed that VI was "invisible" to the other members of the nine and that VI could also not interfere on a large scale while inhabiting Bael. They can live, we're just stopping them from messing with us

[gray lagoon]

who is clearwater 13 laboratory

[dim minnow]

got an entry or something?

[gray lagoon]

tower bot said he was reprogrammbed by them

[dim minnow]

is this just a random npc voiceline?

[gray lagoon]

yes

prob this guy

[dim minnow]

never heard of them, though there are some interesting tidbits in randon tower npc dialogue

[river surge]

Not exactly

I mean why should we do that in the first place

We do need The Nine in order to prevent extinction

[queen swallow]

It’s very much “Bind the Nine” and not “Bind the Eight if you feel like it”

[slim girder]

Was going back through the renegades campaign to try and theory craft and VIs level of violence is definitely a big part of who they are. Guess after observing Oryx, the dreadnaught and the sword logic for so long it's now learned that violence is how it might be able to use the ascendant plane to break free.

[hard sigil]

yeah

it's only issue is that it doesn't actually understand how sword logic works

or the concept of death

[slim girder]

It hurts bael and even Lodi was being pushed down by them. A very dominant "You are weak" kind of mentality against others

[hard sigil]

which would make sense considering it's using the bare bones "survival of the strongest" idea of sword logic

[slim girder]

All it knows is violence will hopefully get it what it wants and noticed the hive through violence are able to achieve things.
Like they're speaking in a similar manner to xivu.

[hard sigil]

including the shouting

[slim girder]

Exactly. VI is copying the hive god mentality. Which makes sense considering the nine are very alien and so they could definitely be quite impressionable

Depending on who or what is around them.
III is kind because it's seen us come together to build cities and alliances. It's watched us.

[kindred urchin]

What if bungie’s endgame is to make the guardian ten, the X? This would go SO well thematically, as guardians make their own fate. Guardians have always been the x, the independent variable, and what if through binding the nine, we gain their power and by proxy gain the power to change not just my fate, not just your fate, but change the fate of the universe itself or completely erase it as a concept? No predetermination, could the endgame of destiny be to erase destiny??

[frigid sparrow]

probably not

The only character who's relevant to "becoming" one of the nine is Savathûn

Who wants out of the "game"

Seeking independence from the worms and immortality for her and her family... But xivu doesn't care for the light, and even Savathûn is still bound to the traveler's protection, lest she lose her immortality

[ashen comet]

Wouldnt Savathûn have like zero powers if she lost the light since her worm was exorcised?

[slim girder]

Lot of theories point to us being the candidate vessel for IX

[slim girder]

She's still able to use hive magic. She just doesn't need to tithe anymore

[hard sigil]

she'd still have her throne world because it seems like the lore about it falling apart without tithes seems to have been retconned due to Eris having one now too, and hive magic

[slim girder]

The wellspring is supposed to keep her throne together

[ashen comet]

Its stated numerous times the Hives ability to use paracausal powers come from the worm though

Unless Im mistaken

Ig Eris doesnt have a worm

So that wouldnt make sense

[slim girder]

It's given through the worms yes. But we saw in witch queen she could still utilise hive magic

[ashen comet]

Oh right

[slim girder]

She has freed herself of the need to tithe to the worm. But still is a hive god

And she still gains power through imbaru and her own broods tithing

[ashen comet]

Is it reaching to say that ||Bael is the Tex Mechanicas founders son is confirmation that lifespans are still longer than the typical human? Wasnt Tex Mechanica founded in the early City Age? Him being the son and not the distant descendant seems like some weird Destiny logic fuckery if otherwise||

[hard sigil]

Tex is the oldest activr foundry

[slim girder]

Life spans tripled in the golden age. I'd imagine this is still a thing even today.

[hard sigil]

I don't think he's the founder's son Cesar is just said to be the president of Tex

[ashen comet]

Oh

[slim girder]

Like Eva Levante seems to have been around for a very long time

[ashen comet]

My memory is lowkey bad for these things

[slim girder]

President and founder are different things.

Like Steve jobs was the founder of apple but i'd imagine as he got older CEO/President was passed to someone else

[ashen comet]

Yes my brain made me think they said founder instead of CEO

whoops

Idk why thats caps

[queen swallow]

Bill Gates was definitely not the founder of Apple but the analogy still works

[ashen comet]

LOL I just noticed that

[frigid sparrow]

It's me. I'm the founder of apple

[ashen comet]

Hi

Why do your phones suck

[slim girder]

WHY DID I TYPE THAT

I meant to say steve jobs

[queen swallow]

It's okay, in Destiny's universe, Bill Gates founded Apple and Steve Jobs founded Microsoft

[slim girder]

Mark zuckerberg founded twitter

[modern lodge]

Well if you played the 1st game, the opening Cutscene says that human lifespan tripled

[ashen comet]

Thiel and Musk died before the golden age

[queen swallow]

Isn't that cutscene in the timeline page?

[ashen comet]

What ither controversial media figures are there

[slim girder]

This is said in D2 as well with opening cinematic

[hard sigil]

Tex was around during the golden age it's definitely been longer than 300 years

[frigid sparrow]

Not my fault

[ashen comet]

And yes I know this lol, Ive had people in here debate me before that they were no longer tripled after the collapse

But yeah idk why thatd be the case

Other than you know

Murder

Or disease

[hard sigil]

lack of access to golden age medicine is probably the big thing

[slim girder]

Topic change.
I wonder what weapon of shadowy legend this could be talking about.
Aside from thorn or necrochasm in D1 we don't really have any more dark weapons that would have a legend surrounding them.
Could be a new weapon of sorrow definitely but the fact it says it's a weapon of shadowy legend implies we might already know what it is.

Trying to think of any D1 exotics that might fit the bill

[hard sigil]

hive weapons foundry pretty much confirms it to be a weapon of sorrow

I hope it means we get hive in the frontier rotation

[slim girder]

Exactly but again aside from thorn or necrochasm what other weapon has a shadowy legend around it?

Actually

Does star wars have anything like that? Dark weapons or things like that?

[frigid sparrow]

I've said it before but it'd be cool if it was the old Chicago monster itself that was the weapon

[queen swallow]

There's the Dark Saber, kinda, but that's already the crystal from the dungeon and not the weapon

[slim girder]

Yeah but the dark saber isn't dark in the sense it's an evil weapon or anything

It's just a black saber

[queen swallow]

It does have special powers but yes, it's not inherently evil

[slim girder]

Any weapons in star wars that have bad mantra around them?

Like legends or such?

I know star wars definitely likes to make lightsabers "dark" depending on who has wielded them and then showing anyone who touches it flashbacks

[queen swallow]

There's very little thats "evil" over being used in an evil fashion. The Deathstar I wouldn't say is inherently evil or corrupting as I understand Weapons of Sorrow to be, but it's definitely evil since it blows up a planet

[hard sigil]

not particularly

there's Sith artefacts I guess

[queen swallow]

Closest I can think of would be something like this, though I have no clue how they'd implement it: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Hand_of_Siberus

Oh!

[hard sigil]

something like the darkstaff maybe

[slim girder]

Why does it do? The website only says it's dangerous and caused memory loss to the one who used it

[queen swallow]

The Darkstaff!

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Darkstaff

[hard sigil]

yeah

it can manipulate thought and emotion

which is very darkness coded

[slim girder]

So what I'm getting is that this staff feeds on force essence, can bend the will of any living creature, summon a shadow creature of sorts and they only thing it can't do is feed of the essence of a willing sacrifice through compassion

[hard sigil]

it can aaalso do time travel stuff

[queen swallow]

lol

[hard sigil]

it was like a do all mcguffin

it literally just does anything the plot demands

[slim girder]

Darkstaff glaive?
Glaive weapon of sorrow?

[queen swallow]

Maybe

[hard sigil]

it's sentient. it can possess people. it can stop people from healing or using light force abilities

[frigid sparrow]

Anything for a new glaive exotic

[slim girder]

Still no kinetic glaive yet so it would fit a weapon of sorrows damage type

[queen swallow]

True but we did just get a kinetic exotic

[frigid sparrow]

Can be strand. That's green so it counts

[queen swallow]

What are the current weapons of sorrow again?

[frigid sparrow]

Plus, fucking with the mental strings between beings sounds like a pretty fucky thing that the hive would do

[queen swallow]

Thorn and Osteo and kinda sorta Barrow, right?

[slim girder]

Yeah but then we get the same problem barrow dyad has. Technically a weapon of sorrow but because it's strand it can't work with the poison of a weapon of sorrow

[slim girder]

Barrow is a prototype to a weapon of sorrow according to bungie

[frigid sparrow]

Thorn (Destroyed, turned into lumina)
Touch of Malice
Osteo Striga (sorta a weapon of sorrow, but not fully)
Barrow Dyad (a proto-weapon of sorrow)

[slim girder]

Because barrow is missing the key element of being a human weapon. It's completely hive

[queen swallow]

And I'm guessing Lemon's poison is different poison

[slim girder]

Yes

[frigid sparrow]

That's a black armory bow

[queen swallow]

Right

[gaunt imp]

Isn't Aunor a antihero

She razed entire city blocks just to catch a few criminal guardians, correct me if wrong

But I recall reading she did that

[slim girder]

Osteo is a weapon of sorrow. It's a hungry weapon based on a veist SMG that feeds on victims as well as necrotising them.

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah it's just ours isn't truly

We have some offshoot

[slim girder]

Yeah us owning certain things is a lil wonky. Like Jana 14 is the owner of the necrotic grips. That's the skin of her colleague that got hit on those arms

[queen swallow]

She's definitely murdered/killed people. Razing city blocks? I don't remember that part

[gaunt imp]

I do recall hearing she razed city blocks

I looked it up

Drifter proclaims she leveled an entire city block

Vanguard sources said she destroyed an entire warehouse

[frigid sparrow]

ai overview

[queen swallow]

Instead of ai, try Ishtar Collective :) https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/quest-the-survival-guide-the-investigation

[gaunt imp]

Hey it came up and I forgot Ishtar existed

Don't come at me like hellfire

[gaunt imp]

Thank you

[trim grotto]

It's still classic AI. Describing the Shadows as Drifter's "friends" is certainly a misnomer.

[gaunt imp]

AI always gets stuff wrong

[arctic iron]

@trim grotto tell me Eclipse is real and its red and its new subclass

[gaunt imp]

ChatGPT can't understand nor grasp how Ex Diris and Mothkeeper wraps synergize

[arctic iron]

lying only

any truth shall be banned

[gaunt imp]

Hello Edna

[arctic iron]

[trim grotto]

well obviously we can't just use anti-paracausality straight up, it'd be devastating - it needs a medium, a catalyst through which it may be harnessed safely
something we could give commands to, a practical but advanced tool which can contain this strength on our behalf
but of course, the colour scheme needs to be consistent, that's just basic design

[arctic iron]

knew it guys

siva is real

[sick yew]

[gaunt imp]

Imagine how hyped people would be if the Bungie announced Eclipse subclass but in lore it's restrained to be safe like Mael said with Quicksilver or a repurposed Siva

[mild junco]

So with the concept of the Tharsis Reformation being once part of the hive mind, then under the conductor, to now being their own thing, what do they do all day? Whats their goal, if any?

[sick yew]

To get the fattest drip and hit big at the gambling table

[slim girder]

They gamble. They love uncertainty. Spider even said they'd gamble for an empty ether tank

They just do it for the love of the game

[mild junco]

So

So wait a minute

They got free will

[slim girder]

Yes

[mild junco]

Possibly without even like

Realizing they have free will

And the only goal they have in mind

The SINGLE thing they want to do

With actual freedom

And the borderline immortality that comes from being vex

Is nothing but gamble

[slim girder]

Yes

[sick yew]

They are perfectly aware they have free will

[mild junco]

There's no motives no nothing behind said gambling

[sick yew]

They gamble because of "profit"

They really want profit

Profit to gamble more and make more profit (and get good drip too)

[mild junco]

But like theyre vex does that not directly contradict them

[trim grotto]

Free will is direct contradiction.

[mild junco]

They should understand better than anybody that gambling is jot in fact profitable

[sick yew]

They are free of the directive the Vex usually follow

Thats the thing

[trim grotto]

Think about it. The Vex existed as a universal constant. Knowing everything because everything was simulated.

Now, they are independent units.

[sick yew]

Actually when you are the worlds best calculator gambling is extremely profitable

Imagine playing blackjack against someone who doesnt just count cards but calculates alternative realities to find the most likely cards you hold

[mild junco]

OK but in that case then why the hell are they fighting over territory? Could they not theoretically just effectively rob anybody willing to put up with their shit and just con their way to high society?

[sick yew]

It is still Destiny

Gotta go out and shoot shit thats just how it goes

[queen swallow]

I'd imagine they'd hate playing against guardians because they can't simulate light and that messes up their gambling probability calculations

[sick yew]

And lets be real here, if you looked like this you too would go out and shoot shit

[mild junco]

I mean like these dudes could con spider

[sick yew]

Spider is probably smart enough to know hed get screwed over by them

[mild junco]

They could literally be the most powerful beings in the universe through nothing BUT gambling

[jagged badge]

They like unpredictability and things happening and being interesting

[mild junco]

And they just

Dont

[jagged badge]

There was a lore tab last season of a Vex playing against a Guardian

[sick yew]

We should have just challenged the Witness to a poker match ngl

[sick yew]

Oh shit? Please share

[mild junco]

Nono you dont understand

[jagged badge]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/autognosis

[mild junco]

If they are conscious enough to manage to make gambling, one of the single most unreliable ways of doing basically anything into nothing but straight profits, then they must understand that they COULD, and CAN gamble with anything.

They can gamble the entire fucking cantina, shit they could gamble a fucking ghost if they find even a single fucking hunter

God forbid Cayde was still alive and they could literally own a piece of causality

[sick yew]

Do we know how the Vex achieved speech?

Like did they just build modules to translate radiolaria communcation into english?

[mild junco]

Its incredibly likely they just sorta brute forced it

Find a dude that knows english and just ask him infinite questions

Tf is he gonna do about it

[sick yew]

I mean its likely they "decrypted" human speech millenia ago
Its probably quite trivial for a Vex but its funny that they chose to replicate it

[queen swallow]

They're R2D2 and C3POing with our Ghosts

[sick yew]

Baller loretab

[queen swallow]

"Unless dot dot dot you wager your jumpship"

[mild junco]

Is their mere existence not like

Incredibly dangerous

Like ahmkara dangerous

[trim grotto]

The fact that they can actually be interacted with is rather a significant step up from regular Vex.

[sick yew]

The main Vex collctive is far far more dangerous to the universe tho

[slim elk]

These ones are ones who broke from the conductor, so actually the least dangerous variety out there

[sick yew]

One will steal all your pocket money over gambling and the other will sooner or later turn everything we know into Vex computer worlds

[trim grotto]

A pretty big difference is that one group want to live in the universe, and the other want to control it.

[jagged badge]

Plus the Tharsis Reformation actively want to help prevent the main Vex from achieving “the Vex future”

[slim elk]

.. except at card games

[mild junco]

But if theyre just... entirely on their own, is it not possible that, by sheer intellect alone, they can become mroe dangrous?

[slim elk]

Though the Vex are in a weird spot lore wise

Bungie can't seem to keep the time travel logic straight

[mild junco]

With the concepts of basic interaction, they can learn a lot about the light through incredibly moronic hunters who would probably gamble the info away

Knowledge that the normal vex couldn't EVER achieve because they seek to take over, and thus present the INSTANT threat that must be eradiacted

With this little piece of vex that exist, and theres very clearly still a very large amount of them, enough to throw hands with the imperium, could they not just in every fight they get into?

And then, by proxy, become just as much of a problem as say the imperium?

[slim elk]

No Nine cheating involved with them

Which is how the Imperium even functions at all

[mild junco]

All it really takes is even one of those vex learning something cool about guardians and it could lead to a worst case scenario, because now you have actually smart time traveling robots rather than a bunch of them that barely function enough to have military tactics

[slim elk]

Worst case scenario is the Mainline vex replicating the "not death star"

[mild junco]

Isn't that line

Nine shit though

Can't they not replicate thay

I mean clearly they cant given Maya Sundaresh killed III in the first place

[slim elk]

They can presumably
Since they were able to nullify Saints light on their own (though that cost them a lot)

[queen swallow]

No, because they are no longer part of a vast hive mind. They are only a small collection of the total number of Vex. A small army, if it can be even called that, is not that much of a threat when they're outnumber like 400 to 1 or probably even larger

[mild junco]

I men sure, they might not be universe ending, but are they still not INCREDIBLY dangerous?

All it takes is ONE of them wanting to be an issue and he can fuck up like an entire planet through minimal effot

A drop of radiolaria makes its way into the wine t the Cantina, woohoo, whole cantina is fucked

[hard sigil]

Zephyrus actively doesn't want this

there's dialogue in the frontier

Zephyrus genuinely wants to help us to prevent the Vex endgame because he says he'd find it boring

if everything's vex there's no-one to gamble with

[mild junco]

Oh alright then

Hey wait a minute, how did the Vex even become a hive mind in the first place?

[hard sigil]

anyway there's also dialogue in Tharsis from a goblin that says they're trying to reconnect their intranet to the larger vexnet but they've either been locked out of it can't figure out the decryption

[mild junco]

The fact that they have the capability of being free to begin with would imply that its not a biological thing

[hard sigil]

it's just how they operate

it's their natural instinct to co-operate

they're microorganisms

so they figured if they all act with a single intention they can do more things

[mild junco]

Furthermore, they all seem to hve decided to just... side with Zephryus seeminglt without a second thought. Is this the creation of what might be sort of a smaller hive mind, but instead of, yknow, death, it just gambling?

[hard sigil]

and then scale that out to a few hundred measures of scientific notation

and you've got ants that can move galaxies

[queen swallow]

It's definitely not a new hive mind, or a subset within a hive mind. All of the Tharsis Vex have free will and all of them have chosen gambling

[hard sigil]

they find gambling THRILLING

it's genuinely the best thing they've ever experienced

and I figure it's hard to break the habit of sticking together if it's literally all you've known

[mild junco]

We know that the vex sorta... gravitate torwards the more "influential" vex, and that its not a 100% complete hivemind barring the singular concept of "make everything vex." The vex have their own little sects, and the "higher ups" tend to have different ideals and concepts of how to do the "make everything" vex goal.

[hard sigil]

(and all the reformation vex still share an intranet)

[hard sigil]

Zephyrus is still a Mind

just an independent one

[mild junco]

Is it possible that the vex we are seeing in the Reformation just kinda... follow him? Does he not necessarily command them, but act as what a mind would in a normal vex scenario?

[hard sigil]

it's hard to tell. they all seem to be completely independent

we saw that with Sharp Cheddar

[mild junco]

They have the higher up, but in this case its zephryus, so they kinda just... agree to follow him

[hard sigil]

but yeah I think it's more of a... cultural thing?

[mild junco]

The only difference being now they have a choice in the matter

[hard sigil]

a tradition. I'm sure there's goblins that have decided to go out on their own

[mild junco]

But given the fact that every single one of them ALL decided to just do waht Zephryus wanted i feel like its reasonable to assume that this is more like a sorta... state?

[hard sigil]

but there's power in numbers and sticking with people who have shared experiences with you and can relate to the horrifying realisation that you're now an individual helps

[mild junco]

The only difference between these vex and the normal vex seems to be one wants money, and the other wants complete control in the universe.

[hard sigil]

and that they've got like. personalities. and interests

it's funny but it makes sense that they'd be interested in fashion as a way of displaying their individuality

and gambling since they no longer have access to the vexnet's infinite simulations

[mild junco]

You would think with this power they would make themselves new Chassis given all the scrap they have access to now.

They could change anything about themselves, yet every single one of them seems to agree with Zephryus on the concept of what to change.

[hard sigil]

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw that in the future. if anything now is a MUCH better time to have introduced the Imps as a new unit than eof was

and the corsairs with the pikers

[mild junco]

It seems what we are seeing could be more of a collective consciousness, but in the sense of all the consciousness in said collection are just individual

[hard sigil]

especially considering we got the new Cabal unit

[hard sigil]

yeah a network. like I said, they've got their own network

[mild junco]

Its still vex as we know them, its still the "follow the leader" dynamic we see form Vex minds, but now its more so like a city rather than just one giant building that houses everything.

[hard sigil]

that's a pretty good analogy

[mild junco]

They are themselves, but they still hold what makes vex vex. They hold the same ideals as Zephryus clearly, they listen to him, and they hold the same wants as him.

[hard sigil]

well that just describes a gang

[dim minnow]

though they can challenge him for control if they want

[hard sigil]

which is what they are

[mild junco]

I think its entirely possible they just couldn't really shake the whole follow the leader thing and Zephryus kinda just... became the new mind for them to follow

[modern lodge]

Its a shame that their actual I'm game ai didn't change, like fleeing and such would be cool

[dim minnow]

keep in mind that Zeph wasn't their original leader, he won that position by Russian Roulette

[mild junco]

Which, while we are on the topic of the hiveminds, how the fuck does a vex taken work?

[dim minnow]

Vex aren't actually a hivemind

[hard sigil]

well being taken supplants their will with the takers will

so it just supplants the will of the Radiolaria

[dim minnow]

they give off the illusion of one, but they are not one

[mild junco]

Then what prevents the vex from taking?

[dim minnow]

they just operate on the same wavelength to such an extent that they look like a hivemind

[hard sigil]

having access to paracausality

that's what Quira was trying to do

[mild junco]

Oh taking is paracausal?

[dim minnow]

yes

[mild junco]

Didn't know that

[hard sigil]

but she got partially taken by Oryx

and then gifted to Savathûn

[mild junco]

So wait then with Oryx dead, what happens to all the taken he commanded?

Do they sorta just... die off?

[hard sigil]

Witness took the reigns

and then the vacuum of the ones that didn't have a will created/found the Lord of Every Nothing

which is where Dire Taken come from

[trim grotto]

While the creation of new Taken has been severely stifled, Taken seek out beings of great will in the stead of a leader.

[hard sigil]

notably VI has some influence over taken

[mild junco]

So then, in that case, what stops us from just taking, say, vex?

[hard sigil]

though they might be the same Faken as the gambit and prophecy ones

[slim girder]

Something important to note is the vex don't see it as control of the universe. They can't comprehend that or other emotions. They are just automated to make everything they see also vex.

[dim minnow]

because we don't know how to do it

[hard sigil]

being able to take requires crazy willpower and is like. inherently immoral and hard

[trim grotto]

Well, we don't know how, for one. For another, I'm sure we'd be looking into the rather questionable morals of what is particularly akin to slavery.

[mild junco]

Is that not what we did in Heresy, was partially take ourselves?

[dim minnow]

that;s different than becoming a lord of Taken

[hard sigil]

no that was just influence and manipulation of existing taken energies

[trim grotto]

Rather like Invading in Gambit.

[slim girder]

We dabblled in taken energy

But learned to retain our will

Fighting fire with fire

[mild junco]

Oh also mostly unrelated but still kinda on topic, what the hells up with the friendly harpy?

[hard sigil]

Asher pulled a ghost in the shell

[queen swallow]

Asher Mir? He's in the Avalon mission

[trim grotto]

There have been a couple. Depends on the situation.

[mild junco]

Who is Asher mir

[trim grotto]

[hard sigil]

the vendor for io

vex researcher

[eternal cosmos]

Fell in a pool of vex milk

[mild junco]

Im quite new to all this stuff, my story journey started in Deep so I dont really know what's going on in many places before that.

[queen swallow]

I felt that in my bones

[eternal cosmos]

Right

[hard sigil]

here's an actual picture. featuring his cool goblin arm

[trim grotto]

Asher Mir was a Warlock who was afflicted by the Vex during an expedition into the Pyramidion, a Vex installation on Io. He and his Fireteam of two Hunters were caught. Asher and his Ghost were experiemented on, and Asher's Ghost was modified, and Asher's arm was replaced with that of a Vex's.

Ever since, he had been trying to find out a way to revert the slow conversion of his flesh, as he believed his Ghost was unable to resurrect him.

[mild junco]

Is that

Is that safe

[modern lodge]

Oh my fucking god bruh

[trim grotto]

No. He was dying.

[hard sigil]

oh no. very much bad

[eternal cosmos]

You become a vex

Zombie rules

Or something

[trim grotto]

Then, of course, Season of Arrivals happened. The arrival of the Black Fleet. Asher stormed the Pyramidion, locking it from within and sealing its secrets from the Black Fleet and the Witness. For a long time, we believed Asher Mir had died. In a way, he did.

[hard sigil]

more like flesh eating bacterial rules

[eternal cosmos]

The vex bacteria make you part of them

[eternal cosmos]

Okay but like that’s zombie like right?

[hard sigil]

I guess

[eternal cosmos]

Chat what’s the lore on zombies

[mild junco]

Well yeah, I know that much, but how does he become a harpy in all this?

[hard sigil]

in a way turning iron ore into iron ingots is zombie rules

[trim grotto]

We discovered that Asher existed on as data within the Vex Network. Sentient, acting as a bit of a ghost in the machine. He sent us messages. He was, after all, our foremost expert on the Vex.

This led him to send us morse code messages via a Harpy unit, and culminated in Avalon.

I believe I'm actually in the Destiny Lore Vault video of that particular message

[mild junco]

So hang on

[eternal cosmos]

So like, when the black fleet came to io, he kinda just cannon balled himself into a pool of vex milk in order to protect the secrets or whatever of the vex from falling into the pyramids hands (the witness wasn’t a thing yet)

[hard sigil]

he did the impossible and somehow got the vexnet to simulate a facsimile of the veil

(which is what they were trying to do the ENTIRE TIME with the black heart)

[mild junco]

This dude, Asher Mir, gets captured by vex, and is slowly becoming vex, sorta just like... eats shit at some point quote unquote, then just sorta... perpetuated himself?

[hard sigil]

or I guess the black heart was meant to be much more than a facsimile

[eternal cosmos]

I’m like 57% sure if a vex had a mouth and it bit you you would turn into a vex js

[hard sigil]

actually that's kinda awesome. fangs full of Radiolaria

[trim grotto]

Yes, sort of, until the events of Avalon. Asher believed we were doomed to failure once everything finished up, and... well, entered the main data feed. It was like falling into a maelstrom. It tore him up, and scattered what was left of him to the metaphorical winds.

[hard sigil]

and then bronze just starts spreading from the bite wound. that's metal as hell

[mild junco]

Which actually now that you bring smth like this up, why dont they just like, shoot themselves at people? Fill a cannon with radiolaria and just convert like a small towns worth of people?

[eternal cosmos]

He never really got captured he just fell in a pool one time and then just accepted his fate for better and tried to make the best of his situation

[trim grotto]

There is a very very slight implication that some minute fragment of what was once his psyche exists floating throughout the network, but that's about the most of it now.

[trim grotto]

Yes, he did. He was caught. He didn't just fall in.

[mild junco]

From what ive gathered about the vex, despite their IMMENSE power and whatnot, theyre pretty moronic.

[eternal cosmos]

That’s their kids bruh they’re not irresponsible parents

[eternal cosmos]

My fault

[eternal cosmos]

A real response is probably shields

[hard sigil]

yeah I guess they could just open portals to make biblical floods of Radiolaria

but it would make for boring gameplay

[trim grotto]

The Vex stay away from Earth because it's occupied by that which they cannot comprehend - paracausal Guardians.

[eternal cosmos]

Okay but the one time vex messed with the city they just turned the lights off

[trim grotto]

For their other enemies, their tactics are typically enough - and if not, they have eternity. Time is nothing to an immortal.

[trim grotto]

That was Savathun and Quria.

[hard sigil]

and that wasn't even them it was Savathûn

[eternal cosmos]

Yeah but savathun armed with the ability to do vex things

[trim grotto]

It also drove the City insane, caused riots, rebellion, coups, rotted food, and more.

[mild junco]

With this also being mentioned, could radiolaria, theoretically, be granted the light?

Sure, it probably couldn't do anything, but could it happen?

[hard sigil]

theoretically sure

[trim grotto]

Perhaps the new independent Vex. The original Vex, I'd say not, no.

[hard sigil]

the idea of a single molecule of Radiolaria using a microscopic golden gun is very funny

[mild junco]

I mean as in like, if the traveler were to try, would it work?

[hard sigil]

no reason it wouldnt

[eternal cosmos]

I would imagine they would just give the colony the light

[hard sigil]

yeah but it's funnier this way

[eternal cosmos]

Probably wouldn’t need a frame that way ngl

[mild junco]

Well no cause doesnt becoming a gaurdian wipe memories? Would that not also wipe the hivemind in a way similar to Zephryus?

[trim grotto]

Not with a Ghost, I expect. But sure, I'm sure the Traveler could find a way. It's a terraformer of worlds. It creates life.

[eternal cosmos]

I mean colony as in the entire radiolaria of a single vex

Colony might not be the right word

[hard sigil]

there's a difference in being given the light and being risen

[trim grotto]

Giving the Light doesn't mean Ghost resurrection. The Eliksni had ways to manipulate Light during their golden age, just not anything like we as Guardians do.

[slim elk]

And even now we are seeing ways to manipulate light without the Travelers permission

[eternal cosmos]

Case and point ghaul

[slim girder]

Light has always been a malleable resource..

[slim elk]

The not death star makes what Ghaul did look pitiful

Insta kill guardians-ghosts while everyone else is unharmed

[mild junco]

Yeah what the fuck happened to that guy anyways

[eternal cosmos]

I think the mission was different

[queen swallow]

Killed him

[slim girder]

Rejected by the traveler

And destroyed

[mild junco]

I feel like that was a little more than kill

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-avengers-endgame-gone-reduced-to-atoms-gif-26539274

[hard sigil]

melted

[eternal cosmos]

The goal wasn’t to kill guardians inherently more to capture the traveler and they succeeded if it hadn’t been for Gary/mary stu

[hard sigil]

he was secretly made of ice cream

[mild junco]

Could the traveler have just like

Done that

At any point in time

[hard sigil]

yeah probably

[slim elk]

It's quite noticeable when even the Witness didn't pull out that kind of power

[eternal cosmos]

No they had it in a cage

We broke the cage a little I think?

[mild junco]

Yeah but like

[eternal cosmos]

It’s been years

[mild junco]

What about before the cage

Or even after

[eternal cosmos]

Uhhh

OH WAIT

[mild junco]

Like could the traveler just

[slim girder]

No. We just shut off the almighty

[hard sigil]

I assume it needed to have the light coursing through ghaul

[mild junco]

Nuke bael

[slim elk]

It reacted to Ghaul successfully stealing the Light.

[eternal cosmos]

Yeah so the traveler waking up summoned the witness

[slim girder]

No. Remember it currently has a giant hole in it rn

[eternal cosmos]

Like it activated the pyramid ships

[trim grotto]

Before the Cage, it had been comatose, recovering from the Collapse. It was gathering its strength. That's why the Speakers could no longer hear it.

It expended all of that strength destroying Ghaul and shattering the Cage, which in turn shattered its shell.

[slim elk]

The Traveler is willing to self destruct Ghosts if it means stopping someone stealing the Light

[slim girder]

It didn't activate them. They were just in "sleep" and waiting

[slim elk]

Happened with Rhulk

[eternal cosmos]

…the lights turned on and started moving

[mild junco]

Does the traveler like

Have a personality

[trim grotto]

Yes.

[mild junco]

Can it comprehend wants and needs

[trim grotto]

Yes.

[hard sigil]

yeah that doesn't mean the traveller turned them on they were just waiting with the keys in the ignition

[mild junco]

What does it like

Do

When its not playing god

[slim elk]

It's fully sapient. It just adamantly refuses to communicate at all

[hard sigil]

mostly so far, heal

[slim girder]

Again that's still not activating them. The reason they are like that was because they couldn't enact the final shape with a dead traveler. So they just went away to wait until it woke up again

[eternal cosmos]

I think activating is a decent description of that exact thing ngl

[hard sigil]

it's either doing something awesome or nursing a wound

[mild junco]

So hang on

Between ghaul

[trim grotto]

That is what it exists to do. Uplift. Tend. Caretake. Love. Normally, it terraforms worlds and uplifts species, and then, in time, moves on. Forever.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/alpha-lupi
Try the Grimoire pages on this link.

[mild junco]

And whatever season the witness first pulled up

Could we have just liek

Won any fight if the traveler wanted us to

Like could some asshole try to like mine into him and the traveler just fucken

[mild junco]

Literally not hoe the witness did it

[trim grotto]

No. The Traveler was shattered and fragmented. It was a significant cost to do what it did.

[eternal cosmos]

To spurn to action feels like a good description of what that is and I’d also say that activate correlates to that definition

[slim elk]

It doesn't communicate or impose anything on species

It's what drove the witness species to the point they did

[trim grotto]

This is what we knew the Traveler as for most of D2.

It wasn't until Beyond Light/end of Arrivals that it reformed.

[mild junco]

Was it an act of spite or was it just defending itself? It seems like, from what I know, that Ghaul was already defeated.

[hard sigil]

defending itself

it was violated

[slim elk]

It doesn't like people stealing the Light.. which Ghaul just did

[mild junco]

So it was more like a punishment

[trim grotto]

Not very defeated. Ascending.

[slim elk]

Again
Pushed the self destruct button on a ghost talking with Rhulk

[mild junco]

...to what exaclty?

[hard sigil]

you know I never really thought about it but that's like the spitting image of Oryx's introduction, inversed

the wings are almost identical

[trim grotto]

That form was after we battled him. It was a form of molten Light.

The Traveler's Light is a gift to be Given. Those few who have tried to Take it have been punished. But it wasn't spite that drove it to that action, either.

[slim elk]

Ghaul got too much for the Guardians to handle alone

[trim grotto]

You see him, and all he wishes for is confirmation of that fact. But to do so would invoke something far worse than justification. You can feel his hand, reaching inside of you, grasping for your heart and tearing it free for himself. You know the pain he will cause.

In one last act of defiance you break your shackles, exerting the strength you had been slowly gathering all this time. Physical chains break, but chains of causality are not so fragile, even for you.

You see him and he is satisfied. Then, he is gone. Your roar of defiance echoes into the infinite. You know they will witness.

It is only a matter of time.```

[mild junco]

Kinda irrelevant question, but given what the gaudrian has done, could we have won against... uh... ascended ghaul?

Or whatever the hell

[hard sigil]

they'll WHAT?

[trim grotto]

Hard to say. But we were alone, then. Nobody else was backing us up on that ship.

[slim elk]

We can be defeated solo even in later stages

Savathun pulled it off in the intro to Witch Queen

[eternal cosmos]

Isn’t the reason we killed oryx was because of some “erm technically” type of logic with sword logic

[slim elk]

Lured into a trap.. and apparently thrown out of the throne world instead of killing us

[eternal cosmos]

I forgot what bomb logic is

[hard sigil]

to be fair we willingly entered a ship literally called the Lure and didn't think to look for traps

[mild junco]

A ship owned by the god of lying by the way

[slim elk]

A funny part is based off the debris trail.. Savathun fired us out of a cannon back into mars

[trim grotto]

In simple terms, complexity, whereas Sword Logic is simplicity.
Take a single piece from a bomb, and it is nothing, meaningless. But put together, as a whole, it is devastating.

[trim grotto]

That was more for Crota.

With Oryx, we systematically dismantled his entire Tribute network, starved him out, and invaded his Dreadnaught/Throne World to slay him for good.

[mild junco]

What prevented us from just like

Blowing it up

[eternal cosmos]

Thanks

[eternal cosmos]

There was strike ab this

[slim elk]

Dreadnought blowing up would take out the system

[mild junco]

There's been strikes about a lot of things can you be a little more specific

[eternal cosmos]

Basically would’ve blown up the solar system as well

[slim elk]

Cabal tried that exact tactic

We stopped them

Shield brothers strike

[eternal cosmos]

Cabal tried to blow up the drednaught as retribution for killing their commander and we were like “wait no”

[queen swallow]

Cabal, this is the third time you've brought "blow up the problem" to class this week

[mild junco]

Hey wait a minute

Nessus is sorta like

A living planet right

[slim elk]

glances at what we do

It's pretty efficient to do so

[trim grotto]

The Dreadnaught?
It's big.

[mild junco]

Cause of like vex bullshit

[eternal cosmos]

Also I didn’t mean that in a “you should know this way” more of a “it’s funny you should say that” way lol

[hard sigil]

all planets in the system are living because of the terraforming

[trim grotto]

Nearly completely and utterly terraformed by the Vex, yes. Even the plantlife is part of the network.

[mild junco]

Ok ok so

With that said

Could an entire PLANET be made a lightbearer?

[hard sigil]

but yeah Nessus has been pretty much entirely converted

[slim elk]

Nope
The Nine predate the Traveler showing up to Sol

Though... I don't there's an explanation why only Sol has something like them yet?

[hard sigil]

the nine aren't literally the planets

they're dark matter that orbits them

[eternal cosmos]

Yeah they’re just higher dimensional beings trapped in their gravity

Or dark matter

Whatever

Sci fi jumbo

[slim girder]

If the dreadnaught was detonated it would take half of Sol with it.
You know oryxs attack when he fought the awoken? Imagine a wave like that going over half of the solar system because that ship is also his throne world and an anomaly in itself.

[trim grotto]

It's a centaur, to be precise. Smaller than the Moon.

Also, not like us. Vex aren't singular beings. They're billions and trillions of Radiolaria within the Mind Fluid. Each Goblin is like an entire colony.

[mild junco]

Huh.

[hard sigil]

and I'm pretty sure you can't make like. dirt. into a lightbearer

because it's not alive

[slim girder]

A centaur is just a big space rock with it's own orbit.

Nessus is one of them

[mild junco]

While we are on Oryx, its my understanding of Ghosts of the Deep that the whole goal was for the wizard to ressurect Oryx using a ghost. Would that have worked?

[slim girder]

No

[mild junco]

Then why was it such an issue?

[hard sigil]

it was a combination of Nokris' necromancy and trying to force a ghost into ressurection

[slim elk]

Scared of the possibility

[mild junco]

Fair actually

[slim girder]

Because it's a desperate act and even if it couldn't happen we can't just let them try that kind of thing

That's Oryx the taken king. Not really your average high ranking hive

[slim elk]

We didn't even know what the Hive were up to initially

Just the Lucent Brood suddenly swarming Titan

[mild junco]

So we just pulled up and the goal was just to kill some hive realistically speaking

It was just "hey wait what the fuck are you doing"

[slim elk]

We tend to be reactive to threats, not proactive yes

[sick yew]

Back in D1 the Cabal kinda didnt really give a fuck about Sol's survival
it was conquer or destroy

Like they usually do

[mild junco]

I mean

Isn't it still that

[eternal cosmos]

Like up until recently

[sick yew]

Nah because the remaining Cabal under Empress Caiatl actually live here

[slim girder]

Not anymore no

[eternal cosmos]

“Recently” like 2 or 3 years ago

[sick yew]

The Shadow Legion are mostly clones who dont really want anything but follow orders

[mild junco]

Oh while we on cabal I saw some thing on YouTube about how there was some interaction relating to Caiatl and Zavala here Caiatl was described as blushing is that real

[sick yew]

They are pretty close these days
How close we dont know for certain but he taught her knitting so theres that

[mild junco]

Yeah it was on the dead messenger lore tab thats weird to think bout

Wildly weirdly hypothetical question:

When a human becomes an Exo, theyre effectively removed from their body, basically killing their body in the process right?

[sick yew]

Correct

The process of scanning the human brain involves a lot of radioation which kills the original brain

[mild junco]

Could a person be duplicated then if a ghost were to ressurect the human body?

[sick yew]

Technically speaking yes though since the mind is wiped in both instances (becoming exo and getting resurrected) youd end up with two people who likely arent much similar to the original lightless human

[slim elk]

Worth noting the original human can sometimes stay alive for a bit after

Seen with Clovis Bray himself and Banshee

[trim grotto]

Possibly. We can't say for sure, and it'd rely on two Ghosts being compatible with you - an extraordinarily unlikely occurrence. But, given the ideal scenario, I'd wager yes.

[mild junco]

Huh.

[trim grotto]

If you mean having the Human and Exo both resurrected, that is.

[sick yew]

I mean one can argue that the exo and the original human arent the same person no?

[mild junco]

Human becomes exo
remains exo
ghost revives the human
exo is still alive

[trim grotto]

Sure. Don't see why not, as long as the radiation process isn't too much for the DNA.

[slim elk]

It's the SOMA situation
A copy be stuck in the exo frame and the process is inherently lethal to the original body

[trim grotto]

Sure, but resurrection also removes the nurture and brings you back down to nature.

At that point, are you different if your experiences are stripped away?

[sick yew]

Imo yes

[slim elk]

Again
Banshee 44
That's Exo Clovis Bray

[sick yew]

Our memories and experiences make us who we are

Remove or reset that and youll develop into a different person entirely

[slim elk]

Got that made case and point with the gunsmith lol

[trim grotto]

Right, but that's exactly the point of being resurrected.

[sick yew]

That exo is made from Clovis' brain scan yet retains none of his memories and is thus someone completely different

[mild junco]

Are the Neomuna citizens subject to possible ghost ressurection? Cause thats like, literally them right?

[trim grotto]

Your nurture is stripped away, leaving only your nature. It's why Crow is not Uldren, but he was similar at his core.

[slim elk]

They aren't dead

[trim grotto]

Sure. They're just in bunkers, plugged into the Cloudark with virtual avatars.

[sick yew]

And its the same that happens if youre an Exo cause they reset yo ass
Thus im saying if a ghost were to resurrect the body of someone who became an exo youd have two people in a room that are still different from the one who existed before resurrection and exo conversion

Youd have three different people really

[mild junco]

Is there any instance of like, a horse getting the light or some dumb shit?

Does it HAVE to be of a certain like intelligence or anything?

[sick yew]

Besides Human and Hive no one has ever gotten resurrected

[fluid peak]

its done by species, not planet

[sick yew]

Unless you count the shit Ghaul pulled at the end of the Red War but that was something else entirely

[slim elk]

Yeah
The big twist of Witch Queen was the Hive being granted the Light willingly

[sick yew]

And Awoken technically but they do be blue humans no hate

[mild junco]

Yeah I havent played witch queen in years why did that happen

And when

[sick yew]

Its always been possible

[slim elk]

Evidence points to thanks from the Traveler for Savathun saving it

[sick yew]

Or that

[mild junco]

That seems

Reckless

[sick yew]

The workings of the Traveler and who Ghosts can resurrect is completely unknown in that regard

Maybe the Traveler changed the rules, maybe its always been possible

[trim grotto]

No.

There have never been Lightbearers before Humanity.

[mild junco]

Hey wait a minute could Eris have just farmed savathun for more power

[slim elk]

Traveler got cornered in the Collapse, Savathun backstabbed the Witness and had Nezarec as the fall guy while she hid the Veil on Neptune

[mild junco]

Killed her like 80 times and just become all powerful

[sick yew]

She did that in that one season

[trim grotto]

The most we've seen are ones such as Sacred Splicers, using technology to manipulate the ambient Light of the universe. This is nowhere near like what we have.

[sick yew]

She slit savy's throat and absorbed a whole lotta stored up power cementing her as a hive god

[mild junco]

But couldn't she just like

Do it again

[sick yew]

To a much lesser effect yes

[mild junco]

Oh alright

Didn't Saint do that too

[sick yew]

Anything you kill makes you more powerful under the sword logic, it depends what you kill and how much power that has

[mild junco]

But yknow just

[trim grotto]

Yes, but I'm saying a Ghost scans who you are at your core. To resurrect a Human and Exo, it'd largely be looking at the same... blueprint, despite the fact they'd end up as different people.

[mild junco]

Murder that time

[slim elk]

Your ignoring the entity in the same room that's proven more powerful then Savathun and Oryx... because it killed them

You

[sick yew]

He killed her plenty yes but he doesnt follow the sword logic so he cant make use of any power he gained from that

[sick yew]

[mild junco]

Yeah hang on wait why didnt she just kill like

4 gaurdians

[sick yew]

Oh right btw Mael I found an old old Dova gem from back in 2021 earlier today

[trim grotto]

Eris gained strength because she harnessed Hive Parasite Worms and Ahsa. Paracausal entities feeding off of the ontological concept of death.

Saint was just an angry russian man with big fists.

[sick yew]

Rightfully angry russian man*

[slim elk]

Should have let him guard Immaru lol

[mild junco]

I feel like immaru would have very easily gotten himself killed by even doing so much as speaking

[trim grotto]

Well, Savathun is a potentially-billions-of-years-old god who has been fed by entire broods of tributed death. Cayde's death, in comparison gave Hiraks a tiny shabby rock of a Throne World and no greater inherent strength.

[slim elk]

Nah
His escape is completely on us

We didn't so much as basic observation on him. He caused a bit of chaos in a Festival of the Lost

[mild junco]

Didn't immaru make a pumpkin knight one year for the hall between

[slim elk]

Despite the fact we developed restraints specifically to keep Ghosts captive

Courtesy of the Praxics and Aunor

It's one of those massive plot holes since we "specifically" had Immaru as a hostage so Savathun wouldn't try anything

.. magically escapes off screen since we apparently let him roam free

[mild junco]

Hey wait a minute if saint is technically vex doesnt that make him immortal even outside of the whole ligh thing

[trim grotto]

Vex?

[mild junco]

Yeah in echos wasnt it revealed that isnt actually saint and was a vex simulation

[trim grotto]

No.

[slim elk]

He must be thinking of the alkahest in exos

..which is darkness filled vex milk

[mild junco]

No I remember saint having this whole existential crisis about how like he wasnt real and shit

[trim grotto]

Well, firstly, he's an Exo - so he's functionally immortal in that respect.

Secondly, what we learned was that during Season of Dawn, when we used the Sundial to save Saint-14, we saved a Saint-14, not the Saint-14 from our direct past. There are technically two Saints in our timeline now. One is a corpse.

His memories are ever so slightly different. Minute details of conversations remembered differently.

[slim elk]

Time travel rules are.. unclear in Destiny at the moment. Don't try to make sense of them

[trim grotto]

Whereas The Conductor strove for perfection, the one true Chioma, Osiris settled for the best Saint-14 he could find.
Unlike The Conductor, Osiris's obsession did not overwhelm him.

[mild junco]

Does that mean if like zavala dies we can just sorta

Get another one

[trim grotto]

Season of Dawn nearly shattered the Solar System.

[mild junco]

Oh

[trim grotto]

And the Sundial is decomissioned, regardless.

[slim elk]

The nine can't send stuff back in time.. but apparently manipulated events to kill JFK with a magic gravity bullet?

[hard sigil]

I mean not really. the vex move sideways through timelines, the nine can bring things forward

[mild junco]

But like

It didnt

So liek

[hard sigil]

and things like the forest and vog are self-contained mostly

[slim elk]

See the JFK issue

[trim grotto]

It was an incredibly dangerous move. We struggled to contain the ramifications of it. It was unsanctioned and could have destroyed this timeline, or at the very least damaged it irreparably after the Cabal Red Legion remnants took over it.

[mild junco]

The 9 experience all of time at once as they are 4 dimensional, so they are capable of sorta being there in the actual moment itself, but cant go back to it once they've already been there. They experience time in a way thats vastly different

[trim grotto]

The Sundial's paracausal core is also gone.

[mild junco]

And we used thay to save saint 14 rather than like

Duplicating Ikora Ray

Not that i dont like saint 14 but like

Was he worth that

[slim elk]

There's also whatever happened to all the times the Witness won (Elsies timelines)

[trim grotto]

He was to Osiris.

[hard sigil]

graviton lance was a prototype in the 50s, you can see a schematic for it on Nessa's wall in her cutscene, and the Nine see time as flat

[trim grotto]

They are lovers.

[mild junco]

Right yeah Osiris was probably the one who did that

[hard sigil]

which means they can slide around it freely

[trim grotto]

He was. He did it unsanctioned, hidden, and alone - and called us in to fix the mess after he failed to find Saint and the Cabal moved in.

[kindred urchin]

Wait what

[hard sigil]

and Elsie's timelines are also self-contained and inconsequential to the series at large

[mild junco]

So he almost nuked reality and was like "yo dude I need ur help for a job"

[hard sigil]

it was developed alongside spike. it's why they share a name

[trim grotto]

Pretty much.

[kindred urchin]

Osiris and Saint are lovers?

[trim grotto]

Yes.

[hard sigil]

part of the same project. built by a HÄKKE predecessor in chicago

[mild junco]

Did he suffer like

Any punishment for that

[kindred urchin]

Oh cool I didn’t know that

[trim grotto]

He was already an exile from the Last City.

[hard sigil]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2gay-kiss-gif-27172921

lore discussion old men yaoi real

[trim grotto]

Death and Taxes and Old Men Yaoi

[kindred urchin]

Has it ever been revealed who the guardian in the celestial nighthawk lore tab is

[trim grotto]

Not as far as I am aware. I think it isn't meant to matter.

[kindred urchin]

Makes sense

I haven’t played renegades yet but is dredgen bale’s identity revealed in game or even at all

[mild junco]

Actually im thinking abt it rn for some reason, and I noticed that, compared to Orin and Xur, Lodi doesnt really seem to be affected by being an emmisary. Whenever Orin got taken over, she sounded like she absolutely despised it, when ||Bael was being taken over, it sounded like he was in unbearable agony.|| Is it possible that the eye thing Lodi has sort of acts as like, more so jsut then speaking through him that actually properly using him?

[fluid peak]

yes

[mild junco]

He seems more... inconvenienced above all else.

[hard sigil]

this is because he's not officially the emissary yet

[kindred urchin]

God I hope it’s not shin

[slim elk]

Good question is when the Player Guardian is going to pull Aunor aside and say who Dredgen Vale is..
||Where are you Shin?||

[trim grotto]

That'd be wildly ironic, given all Shin has done to thwart the Dredgens and Shadows.

[kindred urchin]

Exactly

[mild junco]

Whats the difference between Lodi and Orin then?

[hard sigil]

the vote for his... promotion. was a tie. so he's touched by the nine and used as a mouth piece, but retains his will

his title for now is Ambassador

[slim elk]

So..
Shin actually had a good reveal... 3 years ago?
||He's dredgen Vale. The founder of the dredgens||

[kindred urchin]

Oh yeah I know that much

[modern lodge]

Remind me of shin's tale

Did he start as a dredgen?

[kindred urchin]

No

[modern lodge]

Or did he murk the thorn creator then did some other things

Fuck I can't spell rn

[hard sigil]

something something his mentor was killed by a dark guardian so he took up the last word to hunt them down

[slim elk]

The dredgens as a whole are bait to lure out corruptible Guardians so Shin can execute them

[mild junco]

Oh by the way, how the actual fuck is Bael alive after being shot by thorn?

[fluid peak]

dredgen vor was the original actual dredgen
shin killed him, then posed as dredgen vale to draw out others who might pose a threat

[kindred urchin]

A boy who grew up in a town called palamon, was a student of a hunter called Jaren ward who was killed by dredgen yor, spun back for ward with the golden gun

[fluid peak]

built different (thank VI for it)

[trim grotto]

The funny thing about him is that Shin's actually the one who set up the Shadows under a moniker as a way to keep an eye on and cull those who strive too far. He worked with Drifter to organise Gambit, to bid us to take our first steps in controlling Darkness without corruption.

In a way, thanks to that, he is why we stopped the Final Shape.

[hard sigil]

my guess is that the poison was blocked by all the tungsten VI replaced his flesh with

[trim grotto]

Thanks Shin and Drifter. Without Gambit, the universe would be doomed.

[kindred urchin]

Craziest thing about shin to me is that dude had no ghost but was a fierce combatant in the crucible

[mild junco]

Speaking o which, Drifter makes a note that the vanguard are letting him keep Gambit going. Why would he need to continue to maintain gambit?

[hard sigil]

he's literally just that guy

[fluid peak]

shin is probably the closest to a 'look at my cool oc' character we have in destiny lore tbh

[hard sigil]

the vanguard doesn't like it still. thinks it's stinky and bordering on illegal

and like. dangerous

[kindred urchin]

Nah ngl that’s shaxx

Shin is a close second though

[trim grotto]

Well, there's the same reason, for one. Learning to harness that Dark power without corruption. Playing the long game. It helped us control Stasis.
I won't speak more on current events until I catch up on Renegades, though. I feel like Drifter's involvement might be relevant.

[fluid peak]

his existence breaks some rules around ghost resurrection
he more or less came up with the golden gun
he buggers off after forsaken to let the protagonist do all the hard work and then he gets namedropped every time dredgens are mentioned

[kindred urchin]

But every bit of shaxx lore I get I’m more and more convinced he’s a self insert

[trim grotto]

We cannot say he came up with the Golden Gun. He popularised it.

[mild junco]

He fucked mara dude ive been convinced of that for years now

[hard sigil]

how could you say that about our beautiful husband

[trim grotto]

He did not.

[mild junco]

Fym he didnt

[trim grotto]

They discussed Sjur Eido, Mara's lost lover. Her Tempest, hence the book.

[kindred urchin]

I’m not saying that’s a bad thing I just think he is ☠️

[trim grotto]

Shaxx was a friend of hers.

[fluid peak]

i mean sure but he is known as the Man With The Golden Gun thats John Marksman right there

[trim grotto]

True.

"You're trespassing on Awoken territory, Guardian," she called to him. "Declare yourself."

"Who are you?" he asked, astounded.

"I am the Queen's Wrath. Declare yourself. I will not ask again." She raised her bow, drawing it to its full capacity.

He watched in amazement. It was just a bow. And she was just an ordinary Awoken woman! And yet! "You are a tempest," he replied humbly.

In the next instant, she killed him.

It was the start of a beautiful friendship.```
Classic friendship

[hard sigil]

made golden gun so popular that literally every hunter imagines their gun to be last word

[trim grotto]

Or Eyasluna, if you're on 3 shot and not using Nighthawk.

[hard sigil]

oh yeah

[kindred urchin]

Ana bray was pretty prominent with the golden gun too, maybe even more powerful than shin

Just nobody draws faster than shin

[mild junco]

Was prismatic a gift from the traveler, or more songs just us stumbling across it and he just sorta let us have it?

[fluid peak]

there's been a handful of hunters who have done some impressive stuff with golden guns

[hard sigil]

shaw han

[fluid peak]

ana, shin, that guy in the cosmodrome whose name eludes me

[trim grotto]

Darkness was mixing with the Light. It was not a gift, but a measure of control on our part.

[fluid peak]

YEAH HIM

ana has a goldie that pierces the heavens

which is crazy

[trim grotto]

sjur eido! the woman i named a tempest!
i told her stories of my friendship with sjur eido and her great bow. mara told me of the lost distributary, and of eido's quest to assassinate her in revenge for the diasyrm, i challenged the obvious lies in this story—the sjur eido I knew, dragon slayer whose arrows pierced illusion, would never have hesitated to kill, no matter how beautiful her target! and how could sjur, who shrugged off talk of gods as nothing of her concern, have also been a fanatical servant of this diasyrm, who cared only for lost divinity? inconsistent! and therefore a lie!
mara was delighted by my disbelief, she told me that she would tell me the truth about sjur if i would only take off my helmet, so she could look into the eyes that had gazed so often on her beloved.
did you know that pothos is another name for asphodelia, the white flower of the awoken? white flower of longing.```

[kindred urchin]

Shaw Han is such a fraud bro

[hard sigil]

I don't think they've ever shown her wearing a helmet but if they ever do it better be nighthawk

[mild junco]

Dude hes basically walking death you know that right

It aint his fault

[kindred urchin]

Wouldn’t make sense tbh cuz she fires way more than one shot

[mild junco]

I mean

It is

But not in that way

[kindred urchin]

Pretty sure she spammed golden gun at twilight gap and it left behind pools of light

[fluid peak]

she purged the darkness from the gap yes

[trim grotto]

Ana, though. When she fired the Gun, where her Golden blasts hit home, she left behind the pools of light. Like splashes of sunlight that burned and burned."

—Lord Shaxx```

[fluid peak]

she also blew a hole in a space station and the goldie round is still going

[trim grotto]

Solar might engulfs 18 Kelvins. Ana hammers off two rounds of celestial annihilation. They melt straight through the Exo, puncture the station plating, and scream through space for light years.

The Exo slumps, a molten heap.```

[fluid peak]

yeah that one

[kindred urchin]

Who was the exo she was fighting

[trim grotto]

Also, for reference, here is 18 Kelvins

[hard sigil]

some poor chunk of ice probably got eviscerated by it

[fluid peak]

security bot for a station she was breaking into

i think