📚lore-discussion

[cloud glacier]

they took Titan too </3

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/snake-solid-snake-metal-gear-2025-old-gif-10510942087997367426

[fringe sundial]

io was my favourite planet until the throne world

then that was replaced by the pale heart

[cloud glacier]

what did you think of Titan?

[fringe sundial]

it was aight

[trim grotto]

Titan was my personal favourite location for the aesthetics and atmosphere. But, like. Five years ago. C'mon guys.

[hard sigil]

they took planets to analyse why the collapse didn't work. Nessus wasn't involved

[fringe sundial]

i thought the oil rigs on titan were kinda ugly

[fringe sundial]

i know theres lore reasons i just wish we kept the good planets

[cloud glacier]

there are two distinct zones in Titan

one of them is the Rig

[hard sigil]

I like the arcology aesthetic

[cloud glacier]

the other one is the New Pacific Arcology

[fringe sundial]

the arcology was great

oil rigs were ugly

io was beautiful all around

especially the pyramidion

[cloud glacier]

then seven years later people were mad that Bungie reused Titan buildings in Kepler

[hard sigil]

that's like getting mad at neomuna reusing Braytech assets

[trim grotto]

they were also mad about it on Europa but some of us appreciated the implications

[fringe sundial]

"grrr whys rhulks pyramid using assets from the other pyramids"

[cloud glacier]

I’m just like there’s better things to be mad about with Kepler than that

[fringe sundial]

"grrrr whys rivens lair using assets from the dreaming city"

[cloud glacier]

like, for starters, the fact that Kepler has zero strikes and lost sectors

[fringe sundial]

"grrrr whys the pale heart using assets from everywhere"

[hard sigil]

two campaigns a year makes up for that I think

[fringe sundial]

i dont have EOF but kepler looks like hot ass

[hard sigil]

it's actually quite similar to io

[fringe sundial]

that might be cause strikes are obsolete after portal

[cloud glacier]

fireteam ops are literally just strikes tho

[fringe sundial]

did you record this or is this byf

british people all sound the same

[cloud glacier]

I think the bigger question is whether Maelstronnar is Byf

[fringe sundial]

nahh surely not

lore daddy's got better things to do than converse with us peons

[cloud glacier]

Kepler is basically Io without the piss-coloured grass

[trim grotto]

The facts that we both wear glasses, are both interested in Destiny, discuss its lore a lot, and have similar accents, are purely coincidental. That said, I'm not actually British. I did live there for over half a decade, though.

[fringe sundial]

io's piss coloured grass was beautiful dont even start

[fringe sundial]

that is a huge coincidence

[cloud glacier]

isn’t Io literally just retextured Mars tho

[fringe sundial]

no

io came before mars

[cloud glacier]

like, wasn’t the Lost Oasis supposed to be a Mars location

[fringe sundial]

so if anything mars is retextured io

[fringe sundial]

it wouldn't really fit the warmind vibe

[trim grotto]

I believe I recall some talk about Io being re-contextualised older assets from D1 Mars, actually - but I can't quite recall the details.

[cloud glacier]

What

[fringe sundial]

i found some of the io lore really interesting honestly

like

[trim grotto]

*in D2

[fringe sundial]

the cabal were just

straight up drilling for light

[cloud glacier]

the Oasis was meant to be a Mars location in D1

[fringe sundial]

most cabal thing in destiny history

[cloud glacier]

heck, D1 even has a Crucible map that takes place in “The Lost Oasis, Mars”

[trim grotto]

And failing, as Asher Mir determined that synthetic Light was impossible to... synthesise. Even with this terraforming energy found within the crust of Io left over from the Traveler's presence.

Very cool, though.

[cloud glacier]

then when D2 was being worked on the Oasis assets were reworked to be Io

keep in mind that D2 was forced upon by contractual obligations

[trim grotto]

Quite.

[cloud glacier]

it was never on Bungie’s itinerary to make a D2 so quickly after D1

at least, if the whole ten-year stuff is anything to go by I don’t think it was initially part of the plan

[trim grotto]

It wasn't, from what we know.

[cloud glacier]

I personally think a D2 would eventually have been forced by engine limitations but definitely not just three years after D1 launched

[trim grotto]

We're sort of pushing that point with D2 now. Or at least, old Gen consoles are limiting it. Still, that's a conversation for a different channel.

[cloud glacier]

yea

anyway, back to lore

did Deep have an exotic mission?

[trim grotto]

Yesn't

There was a secret objective/different ending within Deep Dives that was the source of Wicked Implement

[hard sigil]

there was like. a cod zombies-esque series of triggers that lead to a secret boss fight

[cloud glacier]

I see

[hard sigil]

all that for such a bad gun

[cloud glacier]

meanwhile those who bought/grinded the season pass got a better gun (Centrifuse)

[trim grotto]

uuuuh

[hard sigil]

it does look pretty cool and has a cool name

[trim grotto]

Honestly out of the two I'd have taken Wicked Implement but neither were particularly... outstanding at the time

[hard sigil]

centrifuse wicked implement mid off

[trim grotto]

Centrifuse was more interesting, I'll give it that

[cloud glacier]

I think Centrifuse has a niche use case as a weapon you technically don’t have to reload at all

does Centrifuse have lore btw

[trim grotto]

Since Dr. Pell's breakthrough on methods of magnetic containment last year, we've successfully stabilized multiple ionic reactors. They have allowed us to expand our division's plasma technology work beyond research into development…

[Because] the Arcology's turbines have been generating more energy than the facility consumes, leadership has decided, over the objections of D.M. Korosec, to focus initial trials on force-multiplying technology. Ostensibly, leadership's hope is to supplement invasive and costly gene-splicing technology with power suits that could greatly extend our divers' uptime…

While the power suit initiative seems benign, [Arcology leadership's] insistence on controlled ionic emissions research is clearly geared toward weapon development.

Though I will, of course, give my full focus to our new directive, I pray these weapons remain prototypes, discarded and forgotten in the back room of history…```
Sort of.

[cloud glacier]

so from that we can tell it has roots in the NPA

[trim grotto]

It's flavour text fitting in with the overarching lore of Titan, but mostly just to self-justify its own existence.

[slim girder]

Centrifuses lore is like a two parter to lore on titan from the collapse.
The Dr Pell who created this gun was targeted by Rasputin in a horrible event where Rasputin to protect humanity shot down a colony ship because the prototypes were considered a threat and Rasputins directive at the time was about making sure humanity survived even if they had to take other human lives to do it

[cloud glacier]

interesting

that’s more lore than I expected from that gun tbh

also what’s the name of the part of the Black Garden we enter in D1

[trim grotto]

Frankly I don't recall if it had a particular designation

Let me check something

[cloud glacier]

D1 doesn’t label it

[slim girder]

The black garden doesn't really have "places" it's all just called the black garden really except for special places like riven and taranis lair

[cloud glacier]

I was hoping D2 would give that part of it a name

[trim grotto]

We've got names such as these but I wouldn't read too much into them

[slim girder]

Again the black garden doesn't really have named places like other places do given it's a whole separate dimension that is accessed through certain places

It's just a big garden that the sol divisive inhabit and presumably where the gardener and winnower played their flower game

That giant stump in the background also used to be a tree of silver wings

[cloud glacier]

also does anyone notice D1’s Black Garden has different lighting from D2’s Black Garden?

[trim grotto]

That's D1 to D2 in general. Overarching.

[slim girder]

That's just the upgrade really

[cloud glacier]

I mean yea

but it’s more than that

D1’s Black Garden uses more blue lighting

while D2’s Black Garden uses white light

[trim grotto]

I can't say I expect there's anything to it moreso than redesigned lighting, like literally every other reused location.

[ember storm]

owie

[vital linden]

what happened to eliksni ? why did their world collapse ?

[dim minnow]

like how humanity suffered through the Collapse, the Eliksni had their own apocalyptic event

referred to as the Whirlwind

you see, the Eliksni were visited by the Traveler before us

not sure if it was just before, or the Traveler made other stops along the way before reaching Sol

anyways, we aren't given an exact description of how it went down other than a few bits

we know the Pyramids were there and we have good reason to believe Oryx was as well

during the Whirlwind, the Traveler fled from Riis making many believe it was abandoning them

though it's very likely the Traveler onyl did this in an attempt to lead the Black Fleet away, giving the Eliksni a chance to survive

[hard sigil]

and unfortunately the eliknsi decided to follow the traveller, and when they finally caught up they were just in time for our collapse

[dim minnow]

more like they showed up right after

[silk nova]

if u think about it the eliksni are the ultimate stalkers

[sick yew]

Stalkers?

[hard sigil]

if your supposedly all powerful god suddenly left in the wake of a violent apocalypse that destroyed your utopian society, you'd follow it too

[vital linden]

why did humanity collapse also ?

[silk nova]

they stalked a ball for thousands of years

[blazing wasp]

Witness' black fleet arrived in sol

fucked shit up

[sick yew]

Just like us to be fair

[silk nova]

the pattern is that whichever civilisation is blessed by the Traveller, that civilisation will have a golden age before the Witness and his Black Fleet comes and causes a catastrophic collapse in his efforts to get hold of the Traveller

[blazing wasp]

Our main hunting tactic in the past was stalking prey for hours on end

we're absolutely stalkers that way

[silk nova]

thousands of years is dedication though

[blazing wasp]

was it really... thousands of years?

thought it was closer to hundreds

[silk nova]

actually its probably hundreds

[sick yew]

I mean collapse likely happened a couple thousand years ago aswell

[silk nova]

if Eliksni who witnessed the collapse can make it to Sol

[blazing wasp]

Eramis was there during the collapse yea

[silk nova]

then again im not too sure about Eliksni lifespans

[hard sigil]

the golden age was ~300 years or so I guess it took them a WHILE to show up

[blazing wasp]

yea

id put in the ballpark of like

700 years

[sick yew]

Considering there are a few Eliksni who have been around since the Whirlwind (Variks for example) they live for a long ass time

[vital linden]

is the witness weaker than the traveler ? it's why he waited all that time until the final shape to attack us ?

[blazing wasp]

Power scaling in Destiny isnt quite like dragonball

[hard sigil]

it took so long because the witness liked to use proxy wars

[blazing wasp]

The witness also did attack us

[hard sigil]

the black fleet didn't arrive back in sol until well. the season of Arrivals

[sick yew]

Yesnt
The Traveler itself doesnt really have a measurable strength because it doesnt really have destructive power in the usual sense
If you remember it beamed the shit out of the Witness' pyramid and did break it apart but only through the resulting growth of plants

[blazing wasp]

but the witness doesnt intent to just simply kill us

it wants us to suffer

[sick yew]

Meanwhile the Witness just casually floated through said beam

[silk nova]

The Witness got beaten off by the Traveller and kind of laid dormant for a long time until the end of the Red War when it noticed that the Traveller awakened and then it started moving towards Sol

[blazing wasp]

savathun also played a part

[hard sigil]

powerscaling also doesn't work due to paracausality's inherent nature as rule-breaking

[blazing wasp]

Power scaling very rarely works unless the power system is very generic and simple

doesnt mean the power system is bad

it just needs to be simple

D2's power system is not straight forward.

[hard sigil]

Light doesn't follow the laws of the universe and as such can't be conventionally measured

it's just the manner of application

[silk nova]

thanks to paracausality?

[blazing wasp]

even without paracausality, but it absolutely plays a major role

[sick yew]

Guardian powerscaling be like
Yeah so one guy can take out a shit load of enemies
Three Guardians are enough for armies
6 Guardians can kill virtually anything
12 Guardians will beat the shit out of the strongest God we've faced so far

They do be scaling exponentially

[blazing wasp]

a lot of people who do powerscaling in Destiny often forget we didnt kill shit like oryx because we're strong

[silk nova]

and then u have instances like an entire army of guardians dying on the Moon

[blazing wasp]

in terms of sheer, pure strength, we can at least conclude we're "weaker" than oryx

there's more to us than simple brawn

[sick yew]

To be fair that was a different time and they just threw Guardians down there expecting to brute force it

They were not prepared for the Hive and especially not Crota's power

[silk nova]

earlier Guardians made a few mistakes ngl

Vault of Glass and the Moon being examples

[sick yew]

Naturally to be fair

If you could come back to life constantly and had magical powers you'd feel pretty unkillable too

And likely dont think too much about that which can actually kill you for real

[blazing wasp]

the great disaster was a big fuckup ™ but i wouldnt guess what bullshit was hiding in the moon either

[hard sigil]

the only thing really holding any individual guardian back is their technique and skill

[silk nova]

didnt someone try to warn the ruling government or smth

i remember someone tried to intervene

[blazing wasp]

ye, but not even they understood the danger there

[hard sigil]

there's implications of some people like Ikora having a natural affinity or talent for wielding the light, but practise is what truly matters

[silk nova]

was it Shaxx or Saint-14 i remember it was one of these two

[blazing wasp]

hasnt it been stated ikora doesnt have that

she just trained a lot

[blazing wasp]

p sure that was shaxx.

[silk nova]

I need to let byf’s video play in the background again while i do work tomorrow

i’ve been away from D2 since Heresy

i’m getting some real culture shock from armour 3.0 and the portal

[sick yew]

The Great Disaster was indeed a massive miscalculation by the Vanguard

Simple as that

But Guardians as a whole have come a very long way since then

[hard sigil]

you might be right I think I'm misremembering the 5th sigma thing

[blazing wasp]

the only possible "natural affinity" would maybe be us, idk, we seem to have a good grasp on all the light and dark subclasses

but maybe thats not canon and we actually have a "main subclass" kept vague

[hard sigil]

yeah its just a measure of standard deviation not a measure of raw skill

[sick yew]

then again we are indeed The Player™ which imo still needs to be taken into consideration

[slim girder]

Ikora def earned her degree of mastery.

[silk nova]

we have the best kind of armour

[blazing wasp]

Humanity has excellent capacity to learn from mistakes

[silk nova]

plot armour

[blazing wasp]

times when we dont isnt due to a lack of ability to

[sick yew]

Now that I think of it
Did the Vanguard know of Dredgen Yor's story ahead of the Great Disaster?

Like did they know bro was corrupted by an artifact from there

Prob not

[silk nova]

where does that story fall into the timeline?

[vital linden]

what is that

[silk nova]

i thought it was post Great Disaster

[hard sigil]

using other enemies to fight us instead

[sick yew]

I dont believe so no
Rezzyl Azzir went to the moon before it was ever really explored

He was one of the first Guardians to set foot up there

it was early city age afaik

Post Six Fronts but pre Great Disaster

[silk nova]

i need to read that story back again cause now im thinking whether he warned anyone

[sick yew]

Because iirc Rezzyl was at Six Fronts which is where he made a name for himself (and then later in the Crucible)

[sick yew]

He didnt warn anyone cause he became Yor pretty fast

[vital linden]

why doesnt it just do it himself

[sick yew]

Noble Titan goes up to the Moon, gets baited into taking a hive artifact and puts it on his gun, gun and him get corrupted and he becomes Dredgen Yor with Thorn

And yes Rezzyl Azzir aka. Dredgen Yor was a Titan incase you werent aware

[hard sigil]

most likely answer? it couldn't. It needed the veil to conduct it's plan, and the veil was hidden from the black fleet by savathûn during the collapse

[slim girder]

Don't believe that the vanguard had truly been established at the time.
Like there were many smaller towns around during yors terror.

[silk nova]

yea i remember this bit

[vital linden]

so the witness isnt that strong

[slim girder]

The "city" was probably still forming itself

[hard sigil]

it's still the combination of billions of lifeforms with a strong tie to the darkness and still would have been our strongest enemy yet prior to entering the traveller

[sick yew]

Ah ok
Many people still think bro was a Hunter cause idfk hood I guess

[hard sigil]

it was able to remotely communicate through our own ghost from inside Nezarec's pyramid while not even being in the solar system, and also was able to give Joxer his final death with a single wave of its hand

cut him, his ghost, and his ship into very uniform slices

[vital linden]

then why did u say it couldnt beat us instead of using others to do it

[hard sigil]

like what has been said, its hard to tell with paracausality

you can't just put two forces that don't obey physics against each other and call it

but considering we beat a stronger form of the witness in final shape than what it would've been prior to parasitising the traveller, I'd say we could've beat it if it had come to that

[blazing wasp]

Thing is we didnt beat the witness by just... being stronger

Not to mention the witness was also pretty fucking busy struggling with the traveler, weakening it

[hard sigil]

it required several moments of direct intervention from the traveller yeah

and a lot of sacrifice

[blazing wasp]

We also repeatedly fucked with the witness' monolith during the raid

Effectively sabotaging the witness' efforts for the final shape

We're basically a bunch of rats crawling around in the witness' factory and eating all the wire and reprogramming the machines

[hard sigil]

anyway this cycles back to what I was saying with the proxy wars. we couldn't have done this because it kept throwing threats at us. hard to fight the witness when you've also got Xivu Arath and the Sol Divisive and the Taken breathing down our necks at the same time

[vital linden]

idk, it just seems to me like, the whole witness and everything is just like, the story telling me turn off my brain and it just works, we defeated it through the power of friendship and ass pulls, ofc i dont know much of the lore and i havent done excision so, idk maybe if i play that mission it will feel less of an asspull

[blazing wasp]

Excision is the witness on its last legs

Salvations edge damaged the witness so severely we could almost brute force it

a formidable enemy being reduced to brute-forceable is a really big deal

[hard sigil]

it took pretty much every guardian, and the entirety of the coalition forces (Earth, the Awoken, Neomuna, Savathûn's Hive,the House of Light and the Cabal Ascendancy) and the traveller itself to kill it

[slim girder]

That wasn't joxer.
Joxer was the one who flew into the portal voluntarily and ended up fused to their ship.

[hard sigil]

oh right yeah

got em mixed up

[blazing wasp]

yea we needed the traveler's sword to cut off the dissenters to expose the witness

without the travelers assistance we'd be decimated beyond belief

[hard sigil]

you know it's a hard enemy when it takes a campaign mission, entire raid, and 12 person activity to kill it

[blazing wasp]

we've also never needed as much help to kill anything as we did for the witness

[slim girder]

First we needed ahsa who told us savathun needed to be brought back, then we found an ahamkara egg and the 15th wish thanks to her, we then used that wish to send crow through as only he could establish a bridge thanks to his connection to mara, then we needed the dissenters help to even find where we could hurt the witness and then only after all that and the traveler gifting us a sword could we even wound it.

6 guardians then went into the raid to sever the witness from the traveler and then it took the whole coalition and more guardians to corner and finally unmake the witness which also almost cost us our ghost.

[silk nova]

Final Shape was truly D2’s Avengers Endgame

now we’re in the phase where D2 needs to find itself again

[slim girder]

I'm excited for destinys future lorewise. Though I feel like there is a much clearer idea of where we're going unlike back in vanilla where because of development hell and the old Activision contract the story of destiny was a mess.

[silk nova]

oh lorewise destiny looks like there is a direction

cant say the same gameplay wise

[slim girder]

Yeah it's def got a lot of work ahead to do.

I still enjoy the game tho. New event isn't really my thing so I haven't played as much but I'm still hyped for renegades.

Got my build made with all the new gear I wanted and I'm 550.

[silk nova]

i just came back but i picked up some level 300 gear from zavala so ill hold on to that until i start on Renegades

[slim girder]

Leveling is much easier now. Still a grind yes but you're not going to run into a wall and everything you get will be an upgrade of some kind

[fringe sundial]

yeah the witness was holding back the traveler with one hand and trying to enact the final shape with the other

salvations edge was like jumping a 7 foot 600 pound guy while hes in handcuffs and blindfolded

[ember storm]

What if I slapped golgoroth on his bulbous head

[dim minnow]

Have you even played the raid? You're supposed to attack the weak point on his stomach.

[ember storm]

it's for recreational purposes

[dim minnow]

smh these neophytes

[ember storm]

he needs enrichment

[slim girder]

Do we have any lore on cradles? I know they're where the traveler touched a planet and terraformed it but is there any reason as to why they're shaped like this?

Also it got me thinking where is earths cradle? If the traveler was on earth surely it would have done some kind of terraforming and created a cradle.

[dim minnow]

so far we only know of 2 cradles (3 if you count the recreation in the Pale Heart)

there shouldn't be one on Earth since the Traveler never terraformed it

[slim girder]

Well if we were thrust into a golden age shortly after surely the traveler did something to the earth to enable this.

[dim minnow]

all the Traveler itself really did was terraform 2 unspecified moons of Jupiter, Mercury, Venus, Mars, and Io to our knowledge

everything else was humanity's own doing

[ivory spindle]

damn, you guys are serious about this game

[slim girder]

Io had a tree of silver wings inside. Wonder if mars did as well and that's why savathun was posted over it

Also the shape of the cradles is still interesting.

Like why that maze like pattern?

[dim minnow]

the tree on Io was planted by Osiris

why Savathun put the Lure above the Cradle we never learned

I feel it could be related to how Savathun managed to ensnare the Traveler in WQ's finale

[dim minnow]

it's the lore discussion channel, you're going to see us talking about lore in it

[ivory spindle]

fine

[slim girder]

You don't sound pleased

Would you like me to recite the books of sorrow word for word?

[trim grotto]

Not directly, to be honest. As far as we can deduce it was largely a coming together of humanity, however unlikely it may seem. Earth was suffering a pretty serious pollution issue, but it's unclear if the Traveler was involved in clearing that up or if it was humanity itself - perhaps using learnings from the Traveler, like how we created Terraformation Engines on Venus ourselves.

[slim girder]

My idea was that the traveler through it's terraforming made earths resources "speed up" if that makes sense. Plants growing faster, minerals formed faster, etc

[trim grotto]

The Traveler did provide Luna with its new gravity, so there's that.

[slim girder]

Or the traveler was just providing perfect conditions of anything to grow.

[sick yew]

Pretty sure the same kind of shape also formed at the point where the Traveler beam impacted the Witness' pyramid

it might just be a natural byproduct of the light's teraforming power?

Looks very similar to me imo

@slim girder

Still kinda crazy just how utterly gigantic that pyramid ship is tbh, it felt like the entire thing was torn apart when running around in ron but compared to the whole thing its barely anything

[slim girder]

Yeah i looked at that as well. Make me wonder if "touching" a planet to terraform was just it getting close to the ground and then firing it's beam into a planet

[hard sigil]

probably

[silk nova]

Scale in D2 is kinda wild tbh

[sick yew]

I think the beam was just the usual teraforming amplified

[hard sigil]

the beam certainly terraformed the pyramid

[slim girder]

Well the beams terraforming was used offensively. It's like stopping a weapon by turning it into a plant

[silk nova]

like the whole Salvation’s Edge is just the Witness’ body

[hard sigil]

I feel like they could work with scale more. bungie loves it's skyboxes but I would love to see more Big Things up close

[sick yew]

"offensively"

[hard sigil]

but then again you lose the context of the larger whole when you close in

[silk nova]

We have a death star in the next expansion and i wanna see how big it is

[hard sigil]

it was acting in defence but I would certainly call a giant beam that puts a hole in a ship an offensive maneuver

[sick yew]

Well it didnt even put a hole into the ship directly

The beam itself isnt destructive but the resulting growth can be

So imo that counts as indirectly, sure the traveler intended for this but still

Its neat

[sick yew]

You ever s een the scale of the Kings fall raid?

Man wheres that one picture that shows how the entirity of KF happens in like a tiny tiny part of the overall Dreadnaught

[silk nova]

damn i wanna see this if u have it

[sick yew]

Im searching far and wide rn

[slim girder]

The leviathan takes place completely on the top of it if you exclude the underbelly but even that is still a very small section

[sick yew]

Okay so this isnt the picture I was referring to but this should get you an idea

That red circle is where the entirity of Kings fall happens @silk nova

[silk nova]

god is this the opening cinematic

that shit was hella baller

[sick yew]

I believe thats a screenshot from the original Taken King cinematic yeah

[silk nova]

kinda wild we dont have more cutscenes of space battles

[sick yew]

Also as impressive as this is, keep in mind any super large object in Destiny (traveler and larger) can be very inconsistent with their scaling

[sick yew]

Well there is the Revenant cutscene which is kinda dope

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8EHVpol2fE

This one isnt 1to1 but rather an artistic interpretation but it also gives a pretty good idea

(of the Reef Wars)

[silk nova]

i think the other space battle is the opening of Lightfall

thats kind of a small one but same idea

[sick yew]

Yup

[silk nova]

just finished Byf’s video on the Nine

they are a complicated group ngl

[sick yew]

The do be weird as hell

And we dont know everything about them yet either

[slim girder]

There are aliens and then there are ALIENS

The nine are truly alien to us

[fluid peak]

Destiny gets to cheat with it's physical scaling of some spaces because of the nature of the ascendant plane

The Dreadnaught is a great example of that actually

[silk nova]

thats what you get with extra dimensional beings with non sense of punctuation and capitalisation

[fringe sundial]

lightfall couldve been so much more than it was

i wish it felt like an actual war rather than an 80s exercise tape

in my opinion the greatest sin ever committed by bungie is fumbling the lightfall story after setting it up so incredibly well

[cloud glacier]

https://youtu.be/u7fqhlC6Ey0

this is the tragedy that is our current new player experience

[silk nova]

Ngl coming in as a New Light during Season of Arrivals was just the right level of introduction

there was a lot going on but

it was easier to sift through

[cloud glacier]

at least there was content to absorb it all bit by bit

[silk nova]

also im glad i at least got to play through Red War befoe it got vaulted

[cloud glacier]

also I hate how the weight of the whole Witness coming thing doesn’t really hit you until WQ with the current story experience

like, new players don’t get to experience the sheer gravity of Season of Arrivals and the whole four planets getting taken thing

[sick yew]

I mean the Traveler itself changes size like every cutscene its in

They take many liberties with the scale to fit the various scenes which I personally dont mind

Obligatory shoutout to the Shadowkeep splash art

Crazy how no one ever talks about that time the Traveler exited the last city to fly up into space and pose for the photographer taking sick shots from the moon

In other news fellas
Eversince the end of Final Shape have we had any lore indicating that the Traveler is still "active"?

Like is it still taking influence in any way shape or form? Or do we assume its still trying to heal itself internally and thus taking no interest in the happenings around Sol

[hard sigil]

thought it was catching it's breath still

[sick yew]

Wouldnt be surprising

[cloud glacier]

nah, it screamed too hard and blew out its respiratory organs

[sick yew]

Tough it out smh

[hard sigil]

should just cast restoration x2 on itself honestly

[cloud glacier]

smh the Shining™ Traveller suck it up we need you

[sick yew]

Just phoenix dive rq and itll be fine

Like whats the issue here

[slim girder]

It's still healing after the ordeal with the witness. But our efforts in the pale heart have helped it.
So for now all we can do is leave it be and defend it as we always have

[sick yew]

There aint exactly anyone trying to take a punch at it rn tbf

Or has been since uh Episode 1

[hard sigil]

breaking news: traveller is hurtling towards the earth's surface

[sick yew]

[slim girder]

Well that could change with this new superweapon that's being built. That is if it is designed to be shot at the traveler

[hard sigil]

I don't believe it is

[cloud glacier]

wouldn’t that cause the Traveller to break up into rings

[sick yew]

That hasnt happened yet so shush

[hard sigil]

its meant to be taking a back seat with this saga

[sick yew]

But yeah considering the traveler took how many years again to heal its outer shell its likely that we wont be hearing from big orb in a long ass while

[cloud glacier]

is the Traveller stationary or does it orbit the earth

[hard sigil]

it's stationary

[slim girder]

Stationary

[hard sigil]

locked above the city

[slim girder]

It orbits with the earth

[hard sigil]

or rather the city was built where it was locked

[sick yew]

The Traveler does not concern itself planetary rotations

[cloud glacier]

is that what paracausality is about

[sick yew]

Among many other things, yes

[hard sigil]

I wonder why it chose to hang out above South America of all places

[slim girder]

Mhm. Traveler does what it feels really

[sick yew]

Physics? Pure suggestion, a consideration at most

[hard sigil]

maybe it just likes the Andes mountains

[sick yew]

No particular reason id say
Prob just where it was chilling when the collapse hit the hardest

[cloud glacier]

probably because North America was political hell

[sick yew]

We know it was slowly moving across earth during the collapse so id say thats where it just decides to stick

[cloud glacier]

does the Traveller call itself the Traveller

[sick yew]

nah

[slim girder]

No.

[hard sigil]

we called it that

[sick yew]

I dont think she calls herself anything really

She just do be

[hard sigil]

because it. travels

[sick yew]

[cloud glacier]

but it also. gardens

[slim girder]

Eliksni call it the great machine, hive call it the sky,

[hard sigil]

I guess the gardener really was the orbs we met along the way

[sick yew]

Id wager if the Traveler calls itself anything its not a word that we could even understand

[cloud glacier]

unless you’re in Crucible

[sick yew]

With how cryptic it tends to be even in loretabs it actually speaks/we hear its thoughts I doubt you could guess a meaning off what it calls itself

[slim girder]

The name we mainly think it's supposed to be called is the gardener due to flower game lore but again it's never really called itself anything explicitly

[sick yew]

I wonder just how accurate of a representation Microcosm is to the Travelers thoughts
Cause if so then she do be a scientist

[slim girder]

Ergo sum is also about the travelers thoughts

[hard sigil]

well you'd need to be to understand how to create complex ecosystems using anime beams

[sick yew]

Yeah but im specifically referring to the scientific data mentioned in Microcosm

[cloud glacier]

can the Traveller still make Mercury a garden world if it wanted to

[slim girder]

The traveler is definitely a bio mechanical entity it seems from the different stuff we learned from it

[hard sigil]

if it was able to I'm sure it'd try to restore everything the collapse destroyed

[slim girder]

Probably not anymore. It's a far cry from its glory days

[sick yew]

Stuff like this

[trim grotto]

In its current state? Not entirely clear.

[slim girder]

The traveler is missing it's bottom and has a hole in it

[sick yew]

Well thats been there for a long ass time now

And it was still able to "easily" fire off that bigass beam that shreaded part of the Witness' pyramid in a crap ton of plant life

How its looking post Final Shape? Anyones guess really

[cloud glacier]

we know the Traveller is able to regenerate its own body parts tho

[sick yew]

I dont think thats definitively true

[trim grotto]

The hole has been there since the Collapse.

[hard sigil]

it's got a serious case of the Portal Face right now still

[cloud glacier]

isn’t it the “shard of the Traveller” or smth

[sick yew]

The debris of its shell was just floating around it for a bunch of years and it simply put itself back together

I dont think it regenerated inherently

[trim grotto]

Yes, in the EDZ. Corrupted by Darkness.

[slim girder]

Not the bottom it looks like. That whole part in its own words was a "cyst" or "infection that it shed"

[cloud glacier]

smh it should get rid of that, save us from the blight that is Portal

[sick yew]

Is it Darkness?

I thought the idea was moreso that its light has just over the many many years developed in a different way

Without the Traveler as a being keeping it in check it evolved uncontrollably

Not in a way thats inherently dangerous but just "different"

[trim grotto]

'tis Darkness
Remember Dusklight Shards?

[sick yew]

Ye

[hard sigil]

I member

[sick yew]

Still got a few thousand in my inventory

[cloud glacier]

the EDZ planetary material?

[sick yew]

mhm

[slim girder]

Traveler shards

A supercharged dusklight shard is what uldren dug out of the shard of the traveler by mag dumping ace into it

[sick yew]

So where does the Darkness part come in?

Or is it just cause its called dusklight

[cloud glacier]

btw imagine needing planetary materials to upgrade guns

[hard sigil]

isn't it just rock that was terraformed by the shard

[sick yew]

Imagine having like 5000 Seraphite because of that random ass Worldline quest back in the day

[slim girder]

Well remember that whole massive shard and general part of the traveler was corrupted and then "shed" by the traveler.

[sick yew]

I dont remember
I thought it just broke off during the collapse likely from some blow of the Witness/its forces

[hard sigil]

"The presence of the Traveler's Shard in the EDZ has changed this rock on a molecular level. Take this to Devrim Kay in Trostland to discover its value."
nothing related to darkness

[cloud glacier]

what does it mean to be “corrupted” tho

[slim girder]

It did break off during the collapse but not from a blow by the witness. It was more like it cutting off a piece of itself to stop the infection

[sick yew]

Where did you get that from

[hard sigil]

I'd check Ishtar to make sure but CloudFlare is down

[sick yew]

Yeah sadly

Internet be falling apart rn

[slim girder]

From the mini travelers in the pale heart

[cloud glacier]

and also wasn’t the Traveller partly made up of Darkness at one point through the Veil?

[hard sigil]

thats just a theory

[sick yew]

Huh I see

[trim grotto]

Perhaps, but it's still an in-universe theory.

[slim girder]

Not made up of darkness but connected to the veil as a single being

[trim grotto]

It's the whole reason the Shard was cast off in the first place. It was afflicted like a cancer. Some people thought it might have been Rasputin and the whole Abhorrent Imperative back in the day, but nay
as Deerset said I can't actually souce that for you right now haha

[slim girder]

TLDR.
It's like you get bit by an Australian snake and they amputate your leg to save your life

[hard sigil]

I should change my name back I only made it this to be relevant when tdp came out

[sick yew]

No source? Its fake then

[trim grotto]

[cloud glacier]

me when lore tab

what about bray.tech btw

doesn’t that also have some of the lore

[hard sigil]

oh wait Ishtar is back up

[cloud glacier]

lol

Cloudflare hasn’t been the best in terms of stability lately

[slim girder]

Y'all using Ishtar.
I get my lore from somewhere much more pristine.

The official destiny companion app

[cloud glacier]

no

we do not tolerate Ishtar slander

unless it’s about Maya

[hard sigil]

aand it's gone again

[cloud glacier]

Cloudflare really is having a bad day huh

[hard sigil]

well I found the transcripts at least now I just need to like. be able to read them

[ember storm]

enrichment

[shrewd ravine]

This is a weird question, but from the beginning of destiny 1 to current d2 what is the timespan? Like is it irl years lmao? Or is it unknown

[blazing wasp]

unknown

but its probably relative to hours

[jagged badge]

It’s roughly 1:1 with our timeline

[blazing wasp]

so we can safely assume what, 15 years?

[jagged badge]

Red War has timeskips for example, but the general idea is that it has still been 11 years since the Young Wolf was resurrected, as the game has been out for 11 years

[shrewd ravine]

Gotcha, thanks. I’ve always wondered if it’s like in a super short time or over like decades lmao

[cloud glacier]

did Variks ever rebuild his relationship with Eramis

[cloud glacier]

timeskip transitions haven’t been used a lot in D2

y’know, the ones with the Helvetica text that says “The Last City, Two Days Later…” for example

[warm zephyr]

how did humanity almost go extinct when they have siva? siva seems kinda crazy op

[dapper moss]

the black fleet is

pretty formidable

and even though he did die, so is nezarec

[jagged badge]

Humanity didn’t have to fight a war in the Collapse, they experienced all manners of natural/supernatural disasters

The Black Fleet stretched Titan like an egg, causing a tidal wave to cascade back down onto the world when it was returned to its normal shape. Freak plagues affected Earth

SIVA is just technology ultimately and would have no physical affect on the Black Fleet and pose no defence

Remember that after we restored Rasputin and his arsenal in Worthy, he attacked the Black Fleet in Arrivals and was completely shut down in a moment. Not a scratch or dent on any Pyramids

[ember storm]

I could dodge it

[dapper moss]

"yall acting like i would let this happen"

[slow berry]

if mark wahlberg had been on that exodus ship that shit wouldn't have gone down like that

[ember storm]

You know the witness is basically Robbie Rotten

[warm zephyr]

doesnt siva adapt to the things it fights though?

[jagged badge]

Again, it is just man made technology. It is limited in its efficacy against stuff like the Black Fleet. The Black Fleet that existed eons before the Earth even formed at all

I don’t think it was ever really used as a weapon before Rasputin during the Dark Age anyway

Another point, Rasputin shut down rather than try to fight the Black Fleet in the Collapse. If he thought SIVA would have done anything, he’d have tried. But it wouldn’t have

[warm zephyr]

siva seems like it has the potential to be a extremely strong wepon the technology i guess is just too young to be strong

[jagged badge]

SIVA is strong in most cases. So is Quicksilver, the more advanced nanotech the Neomuni use. Pairs of Cloud Striders successfully defended against the Vex for centuries, never dying once, with Quicksilver

But the Black Fleet is just simply another thing altogether that manmade technology will not effect

[warm zephyr]

ya too bad rasputin got shut down such a cool character

[frigid sparrow]

utimately, it's still a causal threat that requires insane output to be feasible

the fallen were thankfully the ones who got their hands on it and are easily the least destructive they could've been

except maybe the hive who probably just wouldn't care

but it'd be far more dangerous in vex/cabal hands

[hard sigil]

it's also important to remember that Siva wasn't a weapon, it was a construction tool. the only reason it became so dangerous is because it was given a very vague and dangerous directive

but yeah nanobots don't stand a chance against paracausal weapons like the black fleet

[slim girder]

We were put up against a threat that rendered everything we had useless. All people could do as we see in the lore is try to escape or hide but that was pretty much futile.

There was panic everywhere, infighting, colony ships on mass trying to take off only to be met by the black fleet once they reached outer orbit.

[cloud glacier]

how do we know Eris was the one who asked Mara to send the Awoken fleet to attack the Dreadnaught

ik there was like a Ghost Fragment card but the two people seeking help from the queen weren’t named

[slim girder]

At the end of that cutscene we heard her say "guide them my hidden friend" and at the end of the campaign in ttk we saw eris address mara as her queen.

Eris as a hive specialist had pretty rightly assumed the father of crota would come seeking revenge and the ahamkara bone she holds was even whispering to her about it

[little relic]

It's actually funny because The Ghoul appears in Destiny 1 but its past version appears in Destiny 2.

It's like reverse.

But it also makes sense?

Lore around The Ghoul is insane.

[slim girder]

https://tenor.com/view/fridge-dissapointed-no-food-my-excitement-for-food-is-now-gone-oh-nevermind-gif-17411460

It's just ghoul lore

[hard sigil]

what if it hits the point where the guardian BECOMES the Ghoul and then time travels backwards

the implication of all their interactions....

[little relic]

The Ghoul Retrospective video essay would go crazy.

[ember storm]

Spindle

[warm acorn]

Guys I need someone from destiny lore that represents law and order

[ember storm]

depends on what you're looking for

variks was warden of the prison of elders before he abandoned his post

[warm acorn]

Anyone else

But Variks is fire

[warm acorn]

I need a name for my dnd character lol

[ember storm]

randal

[dim minnow]

Well we know that the Last City doesn't seem to do death penalty

[ember storm]

only reason rahool is still around

[dim minnow]

They seem to prefer exile in the case of Lysander and his Concordat supporters

There's also an emphasis on rehabilitation

[warm acorn]

Yo Randal is a fire name lmao

[ember storm]

whats your character supposed to be

[dim minnow]

For Eramis, we tried giving her a therapist

[warm acorn]

Cleric, thinking order domain

Haven’t decided on a race yet 😢

[dim minnow]

Several of the guardians supporting Lysander were given a sort of re-education thing rather than exile since we couldn't really afford to lose many Guardians

[dapper kayak]

i think it even worked?

[hazy veldt]

just realised thats III from distance

[dim minnow]

Ehhh, not really

[shrewd ravine]

Is there any history on what like… the traveler is? What its origin is?

[hard sigil]

not really. we know it's uplifted quite a few species over millennia, we know it's a terraformer and a scientific mind.

[slow berry]

We have Unveiling which may not be entirely correct but its a general way of understanding it

the short of it being that the traveler (The Gardener) and the Winnower played a game that always ended in the same pattern (this game is a metaphor for all of life), so the Gardener decides to break the rules and try to break the pattern

[hard sigil]

it's a very unreliable source and it just straight up might not be true

[slow berry]

Yeah, but we know some of the general bits at the beginning are at least somewhat true

At the very least the Winnower does exist and it seems like the motivations for both the Gardener and the Winnower are the same as from Unveiling (with the Winnower believing what the Gardener is doing is meaningless because it'll end the same way)

My personal take on it is that some of it is altered and interpreted willfully by the Witness and its own conclusions, but we're ultimately informed that it is an allegory for the cosmology of the game and is still somewhat useful as a way to try to understand the motivations for at least those two beings.

[shrewd ravine]

I see, very interesting. I kinda have doubt we’ll get a real answer or conclusion

[dim minnow]

not really unreliable

more allegorical

[slim girder]

The earliest piece of history we know of the traveler was that it was found on the home planet of the precursors buried in the ground.
But we have no idea if that's where it started or anything.

Maybe it came from a whole different galaxy or even universe but despite the fairly large amount we've learned from it it's still an enigma in destinys lore

[dim minnow]

I mean, if Unveiling is anything to go by, it is the Gardener

[slim girder]

Yeah but that lore book is sort of in the same boat as truth to power. We don't have a real way to verify it.
I don't fully believe it's just a complete lie but I've always thought something just doesn't fit with it if that makes sense

There's also the use of gardener vs Gardener. That capital G is the only thing that seems to separate the gardener (traveler) from THE Gardener (cosmic entity)

[dim minnow]

the effect Clarity had on the Vex as well as Clovis noting that the Vex operate on "self repeating patterns" (on top of there pretty much being confirmation that the Gardener and Winnower exist) all strongly indicate to Unveiling being true

[dim minnow]

that could be because the Traveler is an incomplete Gardener

Unveiling states that the Gardener was cut down by the Winnower and we have multiple sources (dreams of Alpha Lupi, TFS Traveler visions, and Osiris' observations on the Veil) indicating that the Traveler and the Veil were once united

[warm acorn]

Who’s a character from lore who’s very connected to nature

[slim girder]

Probably Eva Levante. She loves colours and flowers iirc

[dim minnow]

ehhhh

she was the Guardian outfitter

and now runs the seasonal events

[dim minnow]

Devrim and Hawthorne are probably better examples

Cloud Striders also got a sort of meditation thing going on

[hard sigil]

spirituality is different from nature though

[warm acorn]

Hm ok ok

[dim minnow]

Uldren Sov is also a noteworthy one

[river surge]

More like eons

[river surge]

Also, it is very likely thats what happend when The Veil and The Traveler actually split cause they were once whole (Osiris believes), and it was also stated that light and dark were once whole

[shrewd ravine]

So is the winnower necessarily bad? Or just like the darkness where it’s not bad or good

[blazing wasp]

Its ideologies are in opposition, but it hasnt really done anything

its generally just an observer, talking to people at most.

[shrewd ravine]

I see

[trim grotto]

I suppose it depends on your point of view. To paraphrase it, is winter evil? No, but it is dangerous and a threat.

Or, y'know. It was, before central heating.

That said, Uke's right. It isn't acting, either.

[blazing wasp]

i think its unlikely it ever will act, but thats a personal belief, not a bad reason to think it will eventually act.

[hard sigil]

it probably still believes that the pattern will emerge once again

and so it doesn't need to do anything

[slim girder]

It's been so certain of itself for eons. But given our actions I do believe at some point it might actually decide to do something about it.
Not saying it'll come to directly oppose us but maybe it could start to tip the scales a bit to keep us fighting believing that eventually something will best us

Make us unintentionally prove its own logic

[shrewd ravine]

I thought the light and dark stuff was done ? Or does that not include the gardener or winnower lol

[hard sigil]

we don't know what the future holds, but for now, yes, the focus has shifted

[trim grotto]

The Light and Dark saga was done, but that doesn't mean they're removed from the story, y'know?

[slow berry]

i actually think it might act at some point in the future, but mostly because it found the light and darkness saga entertaining

going by some of the lore tabs

and i dont think it'd act in like an outwardly negative fashion

more like, this ought to be interesting

[slim girder]

Its first message to us ended with "be seeing you" so I think it's safe to say it'll be showing itself at some point but for now the shenanigans with the nine are more important.

We just dealt with a black hole almost taking Sol with it and got the message that we were on track for an extinction level event unless we do something that is extremely vague

[river surge]

Nothing, he is just there cause he has to be there

[river surge]

It is but these 2 entities are far beyond the light and dark, they are basically the creators of this universe lets say (althought I might be stupidly wrong)

[shrewd ravine]

And are the nine part of their creation? Or something else entirely, sorry if this is stupid to ask lol

[river surge]

We dont know it is still unknown

Someone actually asked if the Nine are higher in dimension than The Gardener and The Winnower

this was during an interview with lore writers

and they said that they might be at some extent

but again its still mystery

Theoretically they can interact with time

and space

and since they represent the fundamental forces of the universe light and dark they might be even higher

[shrewd ravine]

Interesting

[river surge]

the lore regarding them is very small

I still go with my personal stupid theory

The Gardener is The Traveler in our own dimension

and The Winnower remained shapeless because he represents the darkness

(dont ask me abt The Veil idk where to put that )

[slim girder]

The nine are most likely separate because despite their abilities they are still not considered paracausal like the gardener or winnower.
They just see whole timelines and are able to send things or people forward in time to a point it can rival paracausal forces

They've been around for possibly eons but I don't think they have any knowledge of these other beings and the only thing they've actually done related to the traveler at least was let the red legion capture it but this was them just trying to get rid of Orins ghost gol so she'd be prime emissary material to them

[river surge]

Remember they are bound to Sol

Any interaction with higher beings would indeed happen in Sol

[slim girder]

The witness came from outside the milky way. Higher beings absolutely exist outside of sol.
But ofc things are going to be attracted both to us and the traveler. And the nine will also be involved with these events considering a threat to sol is a threat to them possibly

[river surge]

Wait

Was there any lore regarding them helping us against The Witness

Or did they just accept fate and let us do the work

Or did they knew we would win

[slim girder]

They did not help us.
Though they did answer that question we asked back in the prophecy dungeon about the nature of light and dark.

They also told drifter to "keep playing the game"

Before handing him a coin with a pyramid ship on it

Other than that no. We didn't hear anything from them from season of arrivals all the way into heresy with the lore from the sidearm

[river surge]

Oh so they are frauds

We dominate the seas

[slim girder]

They were too busy fighting amongst themselves the whole time it seems as we learned just before EoF

And now here we are with III dead and the inner and outer orbit members being at odds

[river surge]

Thats crazy

The universe was about to end and they were having a beef

Nah

[slim girder]

They knew about the final shape and the threat the witness posed but after it was over they continued to argue. Calling the final shape the witnesses "unviable means of escape" and that even though the witness had been killed they were still bound to our existence at the end of the day

@river surge here's the lore entry if you'd like to read. https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/division

[ember storm]

Turn winnower around you get the minnow er

Interesting

[fringe sundial]

turns out the winnower is actually just some fisherman catching minnows

[shrewd ravine]

This is probably dumb, but since it’s been so long. Can someone explain what Neomuna is to me? Like where did it come from? Quick silver?

[ember storm]

Neomuna is a city on Neptune

They managed to hide themselves during the collapse and basically live unbothered up until a few years ago

Of course basically having the exact same people in power for all that time without contact with the outside world isn’t really great

Anyway quicksilver is just nanotech made possible with vex technology

Since they’ve never had Guardians their form of protection comes solely from defense mechanisms and mortal humans

Cloudstriders are cyborgs heavily augmented with quicksilver, which works fine enough, but the strain is so strong that it makes them expire in ten years

[dapper kayak]

it's vaguely similar to siva but it doesnt grow out of control iirc

[river bronze]

If shin malphur dies does he die permanently

[silk nova]

doesnt he technically have a ghost

i know its not his but

doesnt the ghost still do ghost things for Shin

[trim grotto]

As far as we can tell, yes.

[hard sigil]

it can't resurrect yeah

makes him hanging out in the crucible more crazy

[trim grotto]

We know that he does hang out with a Ghost via Jon Goff, but we don't really know what that entails.

That Ghost likely being Vincent

[little relic]

For a second I thought you said “That Ghoul”.

https://tenor.com/view/disappointment-gif-21343121

I wanted more The Ghoul lore being discussed.

[dim minnow]

stop trying to make the ghoul work it's never going to work

[ember storm]

https://tenor.com/view/flash-gif-8708188

[fervent sandal]

can guardians be corrupted by the flood?

[hard sigil]

probably. guardian physiology outside of the super strength and space magic is pretty much identical to a normal person. If their ghost was unaffected, they could most likely resurrect their guardian to their normal self if the previous body was too far gone though

[dim minnow]

I don't think the Flood can do anything about a Guardian igniting themselves with Solar Light though

[hard sigil]

true

[warm zephyr]

so whats make our solar system so special why do we have 10 gods does every solar system have gods inside each planet?

[dim minnow]

The Nine do kinda want to figure out if they are the only ones of their kind

we aren't sure yet as to why they exist, but the Nine are a sort of "keystone" species

in that their existence is vital to maintaining the laws of time, space, and quantum physics

[dim minnow]

also what do you mean by 10, there are 9 of them

unless you count the "stillborn" one that's bound to the Asteroid Belt

[warm zephyr]

pretty sure the traveler counts as one of the gods

[hard sigil]

the traveller isn't a member of the nine

[trim grotto]

The Traveler has potentially existed since the birth of the universe. It has travelled to countless solar systems terraforming worlds. We were simply the latest, and the one it took a stand in.

[river surge]

Again

The Traveler may actually be The Gardener in our 3D dimension that took the shape and the form of a ball of light

Since The Winnower always chose the meta, The Gardener simply said "no more"

So he decided to implement itself in the game as The Traveler

Basically changing the rules of the "game"

(My theory)

And I can pretty much add the fact that the Traveler literally has the power to reshape and destroy the universe

Its light can literally do that

And thats why I simply believe it is The Gardener in our 3D dimension

[trim grotto]

I was more referencing the electroweak material that partially makes up its shell

Not Unveiling

[river surge]

Oh ok

[dim minnow]

I don't think the Traveler alone can outright do that

[river surge]

It needs darkness

[dim minnow]

I wonder if it could do things Final Shape level if it were reunited with the Veil

[river surge]

Pretty much I believe

[trim grotto]

Though according to Unveiling, what the Gardener did was create paracausality as a new rule of the game. Being forced into the game was a side effect of the battle between the Gardener and Winnower after that action.

As was the creation of the universe(s)

[river surge]

Mhm

The thing is idk where to place The Veil in this equation

Im so lost

[trim grotto]

I find it easier to not dissect Unveiling. Book's more trouble than it's worth.

[river surge]

Its so complicated to understand it

Its all metaphor

[trim grotto]

True. And it's questionably valid at a generous best.

So, I usually ignore it. Little fruit is born from its discussions.

[river surge]

Maybe its time to let it go

And focus on The Nine

Maybe understanding the true meaning of how this universe was created is just pointless

[trim grotto]

It's moreso that Unveiling is not the way we're going to learn anything of use.

What did we learn? That the last message from the Winnower was pointless, that the story is a metaphor, that we can't rely on it, that the meta concept of the book isn't even sure if it's from the Witness or Winnower.

What we know is that the Traveler's shell contains electroweak material, a hypothetical material from the Big Bang

[river surge]

No wonder why they havent explained it all in light and dark only through metaphors

Cause it is indeed really just complicated for them and us

[slow berry]

i like to think of it as creation myth that is vaguely interpretable as adjacent to the creation of the destiny universe

like you know how we have people that reconcile that when god said let there be light that was the big bang, or other similar ways that people sometimes use to tie religion with the physicality of the universe

i dont actually think anything in unveiling happened (and unveiling itself tells us as much) but its a nice way to get a bit of a glimpse into the start of some of the concepts that come frome it

[river surge]

Unveiling was basically just a kids show to make us more entertained

But in reality it was far more complicated than that

[frigid sparrow]

the idea of "gods" is a bit of a questionable thing within destiny

because we interact with various cultures that worship different things

[river surge]

The Witness did in fact mention "gods"

[trim grotto]

Sure, but the idea is also fairly subjective.

[frigid sparrow]

the hive worms like xol and characters like savathun for example, are labeled as gods

[hard sigil]

we're kinda gods

a little

[frigid sparrow]

Aksis is seen as a god by the fallen of the devil splicers, despite being fairly low-ranking in the greater scale of things

[trim grotto]

Well that's exactly my point
Where do you draw the line?

[hard sigil]

it's a matter of perspective really. anyone who harnesses a large amount of paracausal power can be seen as a god by those who do not

[frigid sparrow]

The Traveler is seen as a god by both us and the Eliksni

Nezarec is considered a god, presumably due to Psionic worship, and we know the Cabal and Psions seemingly acknowledge other gods because of Umun'Arath

[hard sigil]

its an interesting thing to think about really because in a universe with forces like this, you just have to accept gods as existing. but they're not. not really. they're just strong lifeforms who wield things that you might not understand. it raises the question of what a 'god' is; any being that wields a power to bend reality to their will? a being from a higher dimension of existence? a fundamental part of the fabric of the universe?

[frigid sparrow]

the real answer is who can I powerscale the highest \

[slim girder]

We don't see it as a god. Even zavala says this to caiatl in one of the old battlegrounds

It's the source of our power and allows us to protect ourselves but we don't worship it

[hard sigil]

we also aren't the average civilian in the city

[slim girder]

Even civilians don't worship it. Considering it gave the hive the light

Not exactly something to worship a god over handing your enemies immortality

[river surge]

so there is not real god in destiny because we worship based on perspective

[trim grotto]

I suppose you could say that. But you could say that about real life, too. Everything's perspective. "God" is rarely a strictly defined term.

[frigid sparrow]

he's also spoken of the traveler as a silent god previously, and while he would renounce this later on, I think this is something that is simply a part of his internal struggle with the traveler as a concept

[trim grotto]

There have also been Traveler cults. Some people will view it as a god even if others don't.

[river surge]

Also the precurosrs worshiped The Traveler as their deity of life

[slim girder]

But even they renounced that as well after seeing the blessing of the traveler having no purpose

[warm zephyr]

thats why I said gods

[hard sigil]

anyway there's a high density of gods in the Sol system because most of those gods were actively chasing and trying to kill the traveller, which is in sol

but yeah the nine are a special case. we don't know if there's other dark matter beings

[warm zephyr]

each dlc from now on is probs going to be rather fighting one of each nine or getting info about them

[slim girder]

Tis is the fate saga

We'll interacting with them as we go forward. The context of that we don't know yet but so far we've only heard VI speaking in rengades

No idea about IV or V

[hard sigil]

makes sense we'd be using the beings who experience all of time at once as a narrative device around the premise of fate

[river surge]

Also Bind The Nine may actually mean to fully unite them

Our Solar System has been really wrecked by alot of cosmic beings and forces of mass destruction

In order to protect ourselves we need The Nine

Thats probably what III wants us to do

and avoid that mass extinction thats coming

Our fate lies within the system, thats why Bungie never expanded the outdoors outside the Sol System

[slim girder]

Well we don't actually know that yet. We still have yet to meet our next witness level threat or "knife" as the winnower might call it.
All we know is that IIIs death has set off a chain reaction that will lead to an extinction level event and that could mean all life on earth or all life in the universe even

[blazing wasp]

Forcing Mayas echo to ascend a really big rope into the fourth dimension

[slim girder]

I'm still holding onto my theory that she's going to pull a "If I can't have it, no one can" move at some story beat and cause her echo to implode along with her when trying to exert its power.

Downfall caused by her own obsession

[river surge]

Maya needs to go

She already stretching it too much tbh

I like her as an antagonist

But I want smth new

[dim minnow]

At this point she probably thinks the Echo is useless to her now

[cloud glacier]

it’s funny to think she literally summoned an entire legion of Cabal from another timeline and killed a literal god because the universe decided she couldn’t have her ideal Chioma

[river surge]

Maya Sundaresh the moment she realises she can pull The Witness from another timeline

[dim minnow]

Because she* decided she couldn't have her ideal Chioma

[slim girder]

Most likely but i'd expect her to still try because she's too stubborn to realize her echo is eventually just going to reject her entirely. It's the only thing that allows her to control the vex so she does still need it

[dim minnow]

we know she has "other tools" at her dispoal though

[slim girder]

Right but the echo is still important. Like it allows her to exist in the vex network as a single being. We stopped her from launching that warsat so who knows what else she might pull

Maybe more exo body shenanigans

[vale viper]

And that's how you kill what makes a story interesting by revealing the hero of the story has no final goal to achieve, like defeating a villainous antagonists with a god complex since there's no such thing, just misunderstood characters

[trim grotto]

Hardly. What's changed since D1? We had Hive Gods and Worm Gods and both were known to die back then, too.

The term of "god" is subjective and contextual and it is so in a lot of media.

That entire message of yours is subjective at a generous best

[river surge]

Lets be honest for a second

The Winnower is indeed a real god

But just simply lives outside casuality and makes moves by just existing

The whole sword logic agenda relies around him as a worship

[cloud glacier]

that sounds like the Greek god “Chaos”

[river surge]

I mean bro literally did nothing and made The Witness his own knife based on the precursors own agenda abt The Traveler

And The Witness basically produced a chain reaction to the whole events

[vital linden]

is there a place to find quest dialogue ? i fear i have missed some dialogue in a quest i was doing but i already completed the objective so i dont think i can do it again

or does it work if i abandon the quest and do it again ? but im kinda lazy to do it again...

[trim grotto]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqJlWJF0IucG7HXcEao78Cw

[vital linden]

thanks a lot broski

[ember storm]

i get MY information from the best source of all time

destinypedia

[slim girder]

Official D2 app still clears

[trim grotto]

Some of use the true GOAT. Tiktok.

[blazing wasp]

Actually my source is the traveler who sends me lore through dreams

[cloud glacier]

at the very least this isn’t like another vault I know

it isn’t a trash can at least

[slim girder]

Does star wars have any beings like the nine or just elder beings in general related to something such as the force?

Or is the world of star wars not really governed by that kind of thing

Just the force

[hard sigil]

there's like. force beings

but nothing so directly an analogue

maybe the force itself I giess

[slim girder]

I know there are people like for example Anakin who because of the mitochlorian in their blood they're more "attuned" to the force but that's it

[little relic]

It’s actually such a coincidence you mention Star Wars because it has a character named exactly the same as another character in Destiny that is so near to my heart.

[trim grotto]

Kinda forgot that was a real plot point

[tardy elbow]

Not necessarily as powerful as the Nine, but there's definitely a few beings that might sort of fit that description

There's the Father, the Son, and the Daughter (Mortis Gods) from the Clone Wars TV Show, episodes 15-17 of season three. The Son represents the dark side, the Daughter represents the light, and the Father represents the balance of the Force. They had a place separate from the rest of the galaxy that makes you forget your time there if you leave

I don't want to spoil too much (unless you don't care) but the Father believed that Anakin could succeed him as the "Keeper of Balance" of the Force

There's also the Mother who isn't fully canon (at least not yet) named Abeloth, who went insane after absorbing the power of something called the Force Nexus and became an embodiment of chaos. She was sealed away by her family but she tries to tempt people with the promise of power to free her. She existed in non-canon comics but there are also hints of her existence in the Ahsoka TV show

[slim girder]

I don't really care about spoilers. I'm just curious to see if there are any sort of higher beings similar to the traveler/winnower/nine/witness.
Not direct parallels but still similar places in that universe.

Beings that are able to have an effect on the entire universe or galaxy through their actions but aren't just ordinary people or anything

[tardy elbow]

The Force itself is mostly the main driving factor in Star Wars tbh, even though it's not the same as the Traveler/Witness it guides the universe, although the Sith are able to corrupt it to their will and make it unbalanced

Although that itself isn't really a being or anything

[slim girder]

I haven't seen the movies enough to understand but don't force "ghosts" exist in some way?

Not like spooky ghosts or destiny ghosts but just ghosts of previous Jedi

[tardy elbow]

Yeah, there are Force ghosts

It's been awhile since I learned that part of the lore but some parts of learning that ability came from the Whills, which are other Force Beings

Yoda had an arc with them in the same Clone Wars show, and it's how he learned how to become a Force ghost (I think Qui-Gon Jinn had also learned it from them but I don't really remember), and then Yoda told Obi-Wan about Qui-Gon being a force ghost, who presumably then taught Obi-Wan how to become one

[jagged badge]

Whom?

[slim girder]

ERIS NOOOOOOO

[little relic]

THE GHOUL

[hard sigil]

is there even a character named ghoul in star wars

[jagged badge]

I forgot this guy’s name

[little relic]

My attempt at humour would have flopped Eris if it weren't for you. You have my gratitude.

[jagged badge]

Yeah okay, consider giving it a rest though

Just kinda getting old and I don’t think anyone here really cares for it

[river surge]

force beings, the son the father and the daughter

they basically represent the dark side and the light side of the force

the mother sadly isnt cannon

[warm zephyr]

is the traveler light or does it just control light?

[river surge]

The Traveler is a paracausal thing made out of light

it has control over the light

but at some degree

not fully control the fundamental light

[warm zephyr]

and so the veil is the same thing except for darkness?

[river surge]

yes

[hard sigil]

ehhh darkness is more akin to natural phenomenon

the veil is closer to a conduit than an origin point

like a lightning rod

[warm zephyr]

and so everything is the travlers fault?

[hard sigil]

not necessarily

[river surge]

Nope

[blazing wasp]

Found the eramis alt

[warm zephyr]

?

[blazing wasp]

I jest

[river surge]

it was a joke lol

[hard sigil]

eramis blames the traveller for the whirlwind and subsequent downfall of the eliknsi

[warm zephyr]

rip sorry I didnt get the joke

[blazing wasp]

How dare you

[warm zephyr]

ah the ice woman that I forgot the name of

[hard sigil]

anyway the traveller didn't really do anything wrong other than run away from a force that wanted to control it

[warm zephyr]

I mean everything that went wrong with humanity seems to be the travelers fault

[river surge]

Basically everyone blames The Traveler

[blazing wasp]

Incorrect

[river surge]

Uh no

The Traveler has no fault in that

at all

thats where I wanted to come

[hard sigil]

it's blaming the victim for the threats that it was trying to get away from

[river surge]

Exactly

[blazing wasp]

If a serial killer only hunts down people with tax reductions is the IRS responsible

[warm zephyr]

if my child killed a bunch of ppl I would feel that I did something wrong bringing it into this world

[blazing wasp]

This... Is related how?

The traveler didn't bring the witness into being

[river surge]

Not like that logic

[hard sigil]

perhaps it's naïve of the traveller to keep stopping and uplifting civilisations while on the run but it's not a moral failing

[warm zephyr]

travler lifted up the civilisation that became the whitness

[river surge]

Yes and that civilisation basically didnt agree with The Traveler being what it is

[warm zephyr]

basically the whitness is more or less its angry child

[river surge]

it wasnt The Traveler fault at all

[blazing wasp]

That's like saying a ham sandwich made someone evil because they ate it to avoid starving

The traveler literally didn't cause shit

[hard sigil]

they came to their decision that life was meaningless by themselves

[blazing wasp]

The witness was just a bitch

[river surge]

The Traveler LITERALLY helped them

LITERALLY

And they went rogue abt it

[blazing wasp]

The witness is just an edgy teenager temper tantrum

[river surge]

They were edgy

[blazing wasp]

The traveler didn't do anything it's the whole point in fact

[river surge]

and very arrogant narcissistic

people

[blazing wasp]

The traveler does nothing except uplift

You don't blame the hammer store for hammer wielding intruders

You blame the intruder

[warm zephyr]

ya because they had no purpose the traveler uplifted a species too early into their life cycle they didnt have time to decide their purpose or what they wanted to be before they got incredible power and tech from whats basically a god

[river surge]

Its like buying a car that helpes u drive around but u blame it for being a car

[blazing wasp]

They had purpose

[warm zephyr]

its like giving a child a loaded gun

[blazing wasp]

They just weren't handed one

[hard sigil]

they couldn't understand that the complexity and beauty of life does not come with any explicit purpose tied to it and sought to use the traveller to remake the universe in a perfect still moment of order

[blazing wasp]

The civilizations main burden was not being mindless slaves.

[river surge]

They actually did but they didnt understand it at all

Thats the biggest issue in The Travelers travelling

[blazing wasp]

Their self obtained purpose by the sect that became the witness was that they wanted to fucking annihilate the entire world and strip everything of their free will

[warm zephyr]

ya because they evolved far too quickly and anyway once this happened the traveler should of killed the species seeing how much of a threat he created

[hard sigil]

like they say, guardians make their own fate. everyone has to decide their own purpose. the witness decide it's was to decide everyone else's for them

[blazing wasp]

The travelers biggest sin was saying no to that

[blazing wasp]

Also not what happened

I recommend reading up on the precursors

[hard sigil]

it still took them centuries to develop into the culture they ended up being

[warm zephyr]

and the traveler should of stopped that

[river surge]

Nope

[blazing wasp]

It couldnt

[warm zephyr]

centuries instead of melenia

[blazing wasp]

Again, read up on the source material

The traveler had two real choices and two alone

[hard sigil]

like it literally took them years to even dig the traveller up. they were already sentient and had civilisations by the time they found it

[blazing wasp]

Flee, or doom existence to a worse fate than death

No third option.

[warm zephyr]

and if it had never uplifted the species it would of had none of those choices

[blazing wasp]

It couldnt have known

[hard sigil]

then you're denying the traveller it's purpose. and hindsight is 20/20

[blazing wasp]

It literally just wanted to make a society prosper

And that's all it did

[river surge]

Thats a basic logic right there

how can u know something if u dont know it in the first place

[blazing wasp]

People using that prosperity for bad deeds isn't on the traveler

[warm zephyr]

its a big godly orb you expect it to know giving a developing species tech extremely fast is a bad idea

[blazing wasp]

By the time it actually became bad it was too late to even stop

[blazing wasp]

It wasn't extremely fast

Nor was it the cause of the issue

Again, source material, it's there, one book, give it a read

[river surge]

Literally stated "for eons they prospered"

[warm zephyr]

1000s of year instead of 10000s is pretty fast

[river surge]

thats alot of time btw

[blazing wasp]

nor was it the cause of the issue

Youre making assumptions that hinge on a lack of information

Ok maybe that was written a little mean spirted by me

Spirited

[warm zephyr]

im making assumptions that a big godly orb was smart

[blazing wasp]

Apologies

[blazing wasp]

Irrelevant

[river surge]

This subject abt The Witness and The Traveler intentions were always complicated to understand

[blazing wasp]

As per the source material

Look it makes sense if you just

Give it a read

It's pretty short actually

Shorter than the US constitution I think?

[river surge]

Exactly just read the lore book and u will understand things better

[hard sigil]

ok let's look at a smaller scale. it's not the travellers fault that the blessing it gave to humanity lead to clovis bray sending innocent civilians to die by the vex on Europa, yes?

[warm zephyr]

probably but its a big godly orb how could it not know giving power to random species would be a bad idea

[blazing wasp]

I yield

I've tried the basics of psychology, I've tried the basics of research

[river surge]

Listen, just listen The Traveler comes with good intention, if u think that intention is bad, then ur delulu

im sorry

[blazing wasp]

I have math homework anyway

[river surge]

Just go with that logic

The Traveler is a good giant ball

that gives u life

if u think that life is bad for u

then ur delulu simple as that

[warm zephyr]

good intentions dont rid you of guilt if things go badly

[hard sigil]

I'm also fairly sure the precursors were literally the first species it uplifted iirc

[river surge]

I mean

it all started eons ago

eons means billions of years

[hard sigil]

like they're the ones who found it.

[river surge]

Yeah

[low gyro]

I mean the traveler is not human, why would you expect it to have all the kinds of misgivings and thoughts that a human has

Maybe its just a force of nature that has mostly pure intentions

[river surge]

well not billions

[hard sigil]

it had no prior experience. it literally couldn't have known that the precursors would become nihilistic once they reached the end point of their society

[river surge]

Thats also a nice idea of interpreting it

[hard sigil]

and it's also important to remember that those with that philosophy were a very vocal but minor group

[river surge]

Also if we put the timeline together

[hard sigil]

most precursors followed in the traveller's footsteps. scientists, gardeners and terraformers

[river surge]

we can presume that The Traveler and The Veil split

The Traveler crashed into the precusors home planet

while the Veil remained in space

and thats when the events happend

they discovered it

and boom

[warm zephyr]

I just dont think good intentions rid the big ball of any guilt or responsibility for creating the whitness

[hard sigil]

and so?? what do you want from that? to throw it in big space jail?

[river surge]

Once again

The Traveler is not inherently evil AT ALL

[hard sigil]

to go "naughty traveller" and send it to its room?

[river surge]

Everything that happend with The Witness were the precursors fault

everything

[warm zephyr]

I never said we should do something about it I just said that all of the big things the whitness caused at the travelers fault

[river surge]

Then why isnt humanity evil?

Why cant we be like the precusors

explain

[low gyro]

So you want to basically blame the Traveler for being naive and irresponsibly giving powers to whoever it feels like?

[warm zephyr]

luck of the draw not every civilisation you uplift will be inherently bad but also humanity didnt have time to show if it would do evil stuff before it got almost wiped

[hard sigil]

is it the fault of the person at the gas station that the gas they sold to someone was used by that person to hit someone else with their car?

[warm zephyr]

ya

[river surge]

OHH so we do understand that,