📚lore-discussion

[sick yew]

But it's mainly one of the planets or places within Sol otherwise

[ember storm]

not ones that we physically fly to

kepler is the furthest we've gone iirc

oh alex btw can i ask a question

[sick yew]

Savathuns Throne World would be a debatable contender but that's a different dimension soooo yeah you still have the point

[sick yew]

Waddup

[ember storm]

we just go to mars for that

portals dont count

anyway what is this

[sick yew]

!help ban

[dense pike]

!ban <user> <reason>

Permanently bans a user from the server.

[ember storm]

[slim girder]

Nah we have to fly to her ship that's still hanging over mars and physically trek to the throne world portal every time.

[frigid sparrow]

that same bum ass knight guarding the portal to her throne world after getting his ghost fixed for the 104,581th time that day seeing yet another guardian fly up from the cabal railgun

[slim girder]

Just had a thought and thought I'd put it here.
Did guardians ever just murder and rob each other? Not like permanently killing each other but since people aren't really too shocked when a guardian dies since it's not permanent, was there ever a time when guardians would kill each other, make sure the ghost couldn't revive, rob them and then run away?

[dim minnow]

I mean, stealing from someone who would rez later is never really a good idea

though I'd imagine Guardians doing stuff like that but more violent would have been pretty common during the Dark Age

during the Dark Age, fighting between Guardians was more about resources/territory and survival so the stakes were mostly too high for that sort of thing

if you were in an altercation with another Guardian, you would likely kill their Ghost unless you were and Iron Lord (excluding Felwinter)

since one of the main points of the Iron Decree was to not kill another Risen's Ghost

plus, there wasn't really proper anti-Ghost tech back then, so the best way to deal with a Ghost was to flat out kill it

now when the City Age began, conflict between Guardians was a lot less encouraged since we were almost fully unified by that point

unless you were one of those edgelords like Yor, you wouldn't have much of a reason to go after other Guardians

and if Guardians did have beef with one another, they would just take it to the Crucible which began as a way for Lightbearers to settle disputes

[grizzled zinc]

weren’t there still a heap of factions of guardians who settled outside the city?

like the uhh

the solar titan dudes

[sick yew]

Pretty sure theyre all dead

The Sunbreakers I mean

I think the only real faction that may or may still exist outside the city walls proper is that Pacifist faction of Lightbearers that LadyE went to

[slim girder]

The sunbreakers are sadly all gone. Wiped out fighting the red legion after the traveler had been captured so they had no light to defend themselves with

[grizzled zinc]

oh fair

[slim girder]

No better way of solving beef than shooting the person you disagree with in the face with war crime level weapons.

[ember storm]

werent they all mostly dead in D1

[slim girder]

Think it was a bit like the iron lords. There was enough for an organisation in some way but definitely not big enough that they'd be a sizable faction.
Though there's no way to really confirm their numbers back then.

[ember storm]

i mean they were just hired and then all died

i dont remember any mention of their actual group being active after the taken king mission

[slim girder]

I like to think it was a group of maybe 20-30 guardians who banded together, secluded away from the city. Though that's just my personal opinion on the group

[ember storm]

wheres the lore tab of a ghost trying to rez their guardian before they're crushed by a cabal drill

[dim minnow]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/into-the-fray#book-ghost-stories

[west tree]

Not a big lore guy but kinda got curious about the lore behind the epic raid and koregos specifically(?)

[slim girder]

They're trying to repair them I believe after we brought them down in the normal version.

Maya is really trying to digitise the realm the raid takes place in because it would allow her and the vex to modify timelines on a massive scale instead of having to enter a timeline one by one.

[modern lodge]

Pretty much a bigger vault of glass?

[slim girder]

Not really. They just want that area because the remnants of the corpse of one of the nine would be very valuable to have given the nines ability to alter time

I'll try to sum it up as best I can but the goal is to use dark matter to effect all real matter in all timelines.
Lets say the vex want to delete all books from the trillions of timelines. Using dark matter they could just get rid of one book and then all the others in all other timelines would also not be there

[modern lodge]

So we use light and shape it into void and such, what different ways have earlier lightbearers used light?

[trim grotto]

Efrideet once yeeted Saladin off a cliff in some form of proto Thundercrash/Fists of Havoc drop.
Speaking of Saladin, he likes making his axe toasty.

[modern lodge]

How does drifter use his?

[trim grotto]

He doesn't. Or at least, as little as possible.

He once used Solar light to cauterise a wound. The man died anyway, so don't ask Drifter for medical advice.

The most consistent form of Light we've ever seen him use... is lighting his Jade Coins on fire.

Even in combat, Drifter relies on his guns, not his Light.

[grizzled zinc]

is this potentially due to his distrust of the light?

[trim grotto]

It is precisely due to that, in combination with his distrust of Ghosts and the horrors that he's seen Lightbearers preform.

something something Eaton

[grizzled zinc]

he’s one of the oldest guardians we’ve met no?

[trim grotto]

As far as we can tell, yes.

[grizzled zinc]

his ghost is super jank too due to him throwing pieces together isn it?

(drifter is my goat)

[modern lodge]

I wanna learn about cool ways people have used the light

Can you make water with light?

[grizzled zinc]

i mean maybe?

[modern lodge]

Or does it specifically have to be an energy?

[grizzled zinc]

light doesn’t really have limits

[trim grotto]

haha yeah
it kind of fucked him up, but the Ghost also suggested it in order to save Drifter
despite Drifter never, and still not, trusting his Ghost, it willingly allowed itself to be modified to save him.

[modern lodge]

Guys water subclass

[modern lodge]

I've read the recent lore on his ghost, buddy wants a break

And all he wants is drifter to trust him no?

[grizzled zinc]

i imagine especially with prismatic in hand very little is outside the realm of possibility for a lightbearer

[trim grotto]

Well, the Traveler is a terraformer. It has quite literally done this countless times. But, we've also heard during the Red War that terraforming energy isn't quite Light.
Can we make water? Perhaps, in the depths of theory. In practice? No.

[grizzled zinc]

is it possible that as the guardian attains a better understanding of prismatic we can unlock the abilities to do much more with the fusion of light and darkness?

[trim grotto]

It's possible. The combination of Light and Dark within the Traveler gave physical form to pure memories. But that was also with the convergence of two of the greatest wells of Light and Dark respectively.

We also, thus far, have only grasped new power by finding and interacting with it, not by generating it through study or mastery.

Strand? Found. Stasis? Originally given by a Splinter. Prismatic? Absorbed.

[grizzled zinc]

i mean

i mean

we obtain new aspects and grenades via meditation

[modern lodge]

I kinda wish we got more to do with prismatic, like actually creating new abilities other than just grenade that has two elements

[grizzled zinc]

and we mastered strand via study

[trim grotto]

Not my point. We found Strand.

We didn't make it.

[grizzled zinc]

that’s true

isn’t strand just

within everything?

[trim grotto]

True, but I was referring to the overall "subclass" energies level energies.
But, yes, you're right. We did learn to form and control our powers into shapes and aspects and so on.

[grizzled zinc]

ja

[trim grotto]

Our limits, however, simply aren't clear. We're well within the realm of speculation.

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/well-yes-but-actually-no-meme-aardman-the-pirates-pirate-gif-26563702

[grizzled zinc]

as i understand it strand was originally an expression of like string theory but now it’s like the flow of collective consciousness?

[trim grotto]

The Weave is a universal layer, a connecting thread attached to consciousness throughout the universe. It is, in a way, a web of life.
Strand is not precisely that. Strand is the form we have given this as we take it and wield it as a weapon.

[grizzled zinc]

we can just tap into it on neomuna due to the proxy to the veil no?

doesn’t strand get a boost in effectiveness on neomuna too?

[trim grotto]

The Veil essentially wore thin the layer of the universe around it until we could pluck at the threads.

[grizzled zinc]

so is strand a power of the darkness or just a thing that exists

[trim grotto]

Both!

It is Darkness, but Darkness is part of life, as is Light.

[grizzled zinc]

i suppose it’d have to be part of the darkness due to the mental aspect of it

paracausality isn’t part of life usually though which is moreso what i’m asking

[modern lodge]

Man I'm thinking of cool shit like threadlings that are part solar and scorch on hit

[trim grotto]

It is. It always is and always has been.

Remember the Red War.
"Light is everywhere, in all things."
The Speaker wasn't always talking out of his ass.

[grizzled zinc]

then why can the vex not account for it? if it’s a perpetual constant

[trim grotto]

Because it's illogical. It doesn't follow physics or traditional systems.

[grizzled zinc]

isn’t it implied the speaker barely knew what he was being told at all?

[grizzled zinc]

ahh fair

so they’re never going to be able to account for paracasuality due to the fact they ain’t paracausal?

[trim grotto]

Yes, but it's also overplayed by the community. He saw distorted visions from the Traveler and had to try his best to interpret them.

Unlike the Speakers of the Golden Age, who actually literally heard words and relayed them.

[grizzled zinc]

bro should not have been president of the last city

[trim grotto]

Bro was not. He was merely a part of the Consensus, which was the leading body.

[grizzled zinc]

oh? i was under the impression he was the representative of mortal humanity in the last city

i’m ngl the vanguard probably shouldn’t get to govern everything

[trim grotto]

The Consensus was made up of the three largest Factions of the Last City - most recently being the Future War Cult, New Monarchy, and Dead Orbit -, the Vanguard representing the Guardians, and the Speaker.

Humanity, its Guardians, and the representative of the Traveler.

The Vanguard traditionally did not involve itself in decisions regarding the governing of the Last City.

This only changed in Season of the Splicer when Ikora defied the Consensus to bring in the House of Light, and then the Factions each individually disbanded or left.

[grizzled zinc]

it’s been like 5 year shouldn’t there be a new speaker by now?

[modern lodge]

Rep my boy miisraks

[trim grotto]

In the time to come || to make a choice || the Traveler will speak freely. Those who listen will know || the dangers to come ||, and those who know will listen. They are not || forgotten || Speakers, for our time has passed. A new age is dawning, and I wish I would live to see it.

I am the last Speaker, and I am at peace.```

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-constellations
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/radiant-accipiter
Highly recommend these reads if you're interested in the Speaker. Radiant Accipiter is a follow-up to Constellations.

This being said, there are others who have seen visions. Crow, Micah-10, and even us, in both the Red War and the dawning of The Final Shape.

[grizzled zinc]

oh alright

humanity gotta have a representative though surely

[trim grotto]

Speaking of Misraaks, he is actually a perfect example to showcase my earlier point of Light being everywhere. He's a Sacred Splicer, and the Sacred Splicers conducted the ambient Light that exists within the universe via their Gauntlets.

[grizzled zinc]

oh?

i just thought that was like the tech knife from titanfall

[trim grotto]

Not currently, since the factions are gone and the Speaker is dead. But we also just don't have a government in general, really.

I expect it'll be rebuilt from the ground up, which will be for the best anyway. The Consensus was always a bandaid fix to the Faction Wars, and was not efficient or effective.

Perhaps ironically, the Factions remained the biggest glaring issue of the Consensus.

[modern lodge]

Eliknsi goats

[trim grotto]

no they're aliens silly

[modern lodge]

Cool crab aliens

Do you reckon drifter boiled them at some point?

Like a crab boil

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/triton-vice
is this you

[modern lodge]

Eh somewhat

[grizzled zinc]

no i meant they should not that they have one lol

[queen swallow]

I love Pahanin 😍

[river creek]

How powerful is Saint-14?

[jagged badge]

Very

[gusty quest]

11 weeks see more challenges of missives attached to gold caches. Who can help me?

[scenic radish]

I know they removed factions because the community engagement was low with them, but is there a lore reason as to why they’re gone? I miss Dead Orbit 😪

[blazing wasp]

Failed coup

[dim minnow]

Lakshmi convinced the others to join them in an attempted coup. They ended up unleashing the Vex onto the city, resulting in Lakshmi's death.

Whoever was left from these factions left with Dead Orbit

I think we still have contact with them

[frigid sparrow]

in splicer, lakshmi was heading the anti-eliksni sentiments within the city very publicly, while as stated working on a coup against the vanguard alongside hideo. while arach jalaal wasn't as present with the idea, he still never told the vanguard about the rising coup. they attempted to get both saladin and saint on their side, and it's implied they got osusris to act as a power shifter.

In the epilogue of the season, lakshmi is straight up killed by the vex she brought upon the eliksni quarters, which would dissolve the future war cult. ikora was already getting on her case beforehand, and knowing that the other consensus members were in on the attempted coup through some very obvious conclusions, hideo and jalaal both dipped with dead orbit "fulfilling" their goal, albeit sooner than desired. any remnants of the factions would either leave with dead orbit or dissolve into the citizenry of the last city because ikora would've personally dealt with them

and ikora personally threatened to leave lakshmi on a remote icy moon

knowing that hideo was far more involved and him still being alive enough to punish she might've cast him into a black hole or something

[trim grotto]

for the record it was not "engagement was low", it was "there's literally no way to interact with them".

They existed to spout idle dialogue for the last few years prior to Splicer

[dim minnow]

Bungie didn't know what to do with them anymore, then they realized the City's political system involving the factions was actually a pretty flawed and terrible system to have in place

I think even Savathun knew this too which is why she twisted her action at the end of Splicer as a good thing for us since it effectively allowed the problem to fix itself

you know, I actually do kinda think it's possible that Savathun truly believes she was being helpful to us

the problem is that the Hive way of being helpful is not really what we would consider helpful

and her being tied deeply to her nature as being cunning and deceptive doesn't help either

like, she believes she needs to help us by throwing problems at us and hoping we would either sink or swim while going at it from an incredibly deceptive angle

[frigid sparrow]

grow fat from strength

[hidden pebble]

has there been a straightforward answer on mida-multi’s origins?

[trim grotto]

Depends on how you define straight forward. It's from Marathon's universe. Exactly how it got here isn't wholly clear.

—Shaxx```

[hidden pebble]

cryptarchy came up with it being from marathon?

the server i mean

[trim grotto]

MIDA was a revolutionary government in Marathon's universe. It's a whole backstory/setpiece for the series, a very well known name if you played the games. The Mini-Tool also directly references Strauss, another particularly notable figure from the trilogy's lore.

The events including MIDA and Strauss set up the games directly, involving the Marathon colony ship and the revolution on Mars, as well as things including AI and cyborgs and whatnot.

[hidden pebble]

haven’t given another thought about marathon since i saw a smidge of the alpha gameplay

[trim grotto]

Haha well the first game came out in 1994

[hidden pebble]

marathon has been a franchise that 343/bungie has had in their pockets all this time?

[trim grotto]

It's Halo's predecessor

1994, very DOOM-esque

Three games. 1, 2, and Infinity.

This kinda style

Well not style, that's a screenshot, but you get my point

[hidden pebble]

looked at some gameplay

could’ve sworn it was doom

you were not kidding lol

[trim grotto]

Prior to even Marathon was Pathways Into Darkness, which was 1993, and then you get into some of the real niche stuff.

If you ever play Marathon, you'll find that the discussions of AI rampancy mirror Halo's very strongly.

Bungie reused a lot of themes in their games.

this little fella comes from Pathways

[hidden pebble]

so the cryptarchy encompasses all of bungie game lore?

[trim grotto]

yeah see here's Cryptarch Rahool at the Fall of Reach

We're focused on Destiny, as the name might have given away. The Cryptarchy exists in universe, as you know with everyone's favourite representative, Rahool.
But there are a fair few who are interested in Marathon, and some in the wider expanse of Bungie content. Halo, funnily enough, is actually discussed the least - but, of course, it becomes more and more irrelevant as time goes on.

[vital lodge]

huh...

[queen swallow]

Clearly you have never seen peak theatre: https://www.destinypedia.com/Oryx_the_Nightmare_Daddy

[vital lodge]

the fact he was called daddy was the confusing part

[queen swallow]

"Shaxx admitted that it was undeniably enthusiastic but questioned if the dialogue was supposed to come off as sexually charged"

First time it's been mentioned since Forsaken btw

[tacit linden]

Written by Diddy?????

[slim girder]

I wonder what the layout of the city looks like when you're actually down there in the city.
When you look at it from the top it definitely looks like there are parts that seem a lot more old fashioned with markets, older housing, etc, and then near the center there are way more modern looking structures and many more facilities that look like they could have been from the golden age even. They even have ships coming through it as well.

[queen swallow]

[trim grotto]

Who?

[queen swallow]

They're trying to make a joke about the lore character of Didi the Ghost and rapper Sean Combs, aka Diddy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Combs#Lawsuits:~:text=[210]-,On October 1%2C 2024,-%2C The Washington

It's not a very good joke or a very nice one

[uneven canyon]

Since many exos died from DER, what happens if they’re resurrected? Are they still insane?

[sick yew]

No lol

And better yet they dont even get DER anymore

[slow berry]

i guess its hard to get exomind rejection when you have no recollection of what you're supposed to be like biologically

[slim girder]

Exactly. Guardian exos are technically the perfect vision of what exos were supposed to be

[near canopy]

can't remember if it was explained in the edge of fate or not but why wouldn't the vex attack Lodi?

[sick yew]

I dont think we know for sure but its probably on Mayas orders

[dim minnow]

it seems like Lodi arrived right around the time when Maya killed III

so perhaps the Vex were too busy looking at the results of Maya's fuckup

and maybe they were curious about Lodi as well given his circumstances

though they likely would have tried to capture him

[arctic iron]

soon one day, we will say the same for destiny

😔

[slim girder]

Lodi isn't a guardian. This is just a theory but back in curse of Osiris we see through the "vision" of a vex goblin that the light of a ghost is like a big bright ping to them and everything else appears the same.
It's possible the reason Lodi wasn't attacked is as simple as he doesn't actually pose any threat or value to the vex so is invisible to them in a way.

He's just a normal human and the vex don't view that as anything to devote resources to unless he decided to venture into a vex stronghold or something like that

[jagged badge]

That’s not really it

Exos don’t have their human memories anyway

It’s about the subconscious aspect

[ember storm]

@blazing wasp there is this

[blazing wasp]

ah yeah

that's no long boy

[ember storm]

yeah like

[sudden sinew]

the sea monster was three circles the entire time?! 💀

[mossy kernel]

How hive worlds are made are they entirely different dimensions or is just planets turned into giant citadels

[dapper moss]

if you mean throne worlds, they're pocket dimensions yes

[slow berry]

No yeah but I'm shooting a guess that getting your memories wiped when you get exo'd isnt as clean of a mind defrag as dying and then being resurrected for the very first time as a new person already as an exo

[nova knoll]

So can someone give me the lore run down of the coil?

Destiny needs to break down this lore stuff in easier in game for the backstory of XYZ areas

[jagged badge]

I don’t see the difference tbh

Destiny balances nature and nurture as factors. Guardians are “new people” because without memories they are blank slates for new experiences to shape them. But we still see many examples of Guardians carrying over core traits from their former lives

[slow berry]

the coil did get a lore explanation with the season it came from, but seasonal content is gone so

[jagged badge]

I’m fairly certain Cyril was noted as having some sort of issue or imbalance before that his Ghost could see and reflected that he should have left Cyril in death because of

Then there’s the traits Crow was observed to naturally share with Uldren even without Uldren’s memories

[nova knoll]

So what’s the lore?

[ember storm]

You mean for doing the activity?

[nova knoll]

Like I don’t know who the big worm thing is

I don’t know the location

I don’t know why she be talking all weird

[ember storm]

Coil didn’t have a worm

You mean Riven?

[nova knoll]

She looks like a worm with some legs

[ember storm]

She’s a dragon

[queen swallow]

Ahamkara

[ember storm]

https://tenor.com/view/riven-destiny-2-mara-sov-gif-13678579361005185134

[nova knoll]

Well what’s up with her and the lore of her etc.

[ember storm]

Well do you know what ahamkara are

[nova knoll]

Weird wish dragons

[ember storm]

Basically yeah

[nova knoll]

Not sure why you want to piece meal this

I didn’t get to play the dreaming city expansion stuffs. So that’s a bummer

[ember storm]

Well I don’t want to explain more than I have to because I’m lazy

[ember storm]

All of that is still in the game

The only part of forsaken that got removed was the tangled shore stuff

Anyway season of the wish we were forced to go and ask riven for help in following the witness through the traveler portal

Riven agreed on the condition that we help locate her eggs so the survival of the ahamkara species is secured, since we thought she was the last one left

Coil activity is us going through her lair and killing baddies to save her eggs

[jagged badge]

Riven was an Ahamkara found by Uldren as a gift to impress his sister Mara Sov. Riven’s wish magic was used as the foundation to build the Dreaming City, however there’s always risk with dealing with Ahamkara so the Wish Wall was created in order to input wishes safely. Riven was later Taken by Oryx (though retained her agency and later agreed to work with Savathûn and aid her schemes). We delved into the Dreaming City to slay Riven, but unwittingly played into her and Savathûn’s hands and unleashed a curse, trapping the city into a time loop

She’s relevant again in Season of the Wish for the reasons Waltz explained. We get Mara’s Techeuns to conduct a ritual to conjure Riven’s spirit and strike a deal wit her in order to make a wish to follow the Witness

[nova knoll]

Mara and Savathun during the final shape missions argued like they were Ex’s

[jagged badge]

😭

[nova knoll]

Am I wrong?

They sound like two Ex’s who don’t want others to know that they dated

[dim minnow]

Savathun just loves helping us in increasingly convoluted ways

she pulled up to the Pale Heart starting shit with Mara just so she can get us to figure out that there are Light rifts hidden from plain view

like she didn't even tell us directly, she coaxed us into figuring it out on our own

[slow berry]

can we talk about the axe

what the fuck was that about

also the fuck does it mean destroying the quicksilver in the thing made it so she cant pull red legionnaires

? ? ?

[shy remnant]

Idk she was gonna launch warsats that could allow her to put red legion across the system??? IDK

[sudden sinew]

So what was the point of all this maya stuff? She got time travelling abilities and got cabal, then we go into the facility and remove that ability

now what

[queen swallow]

Uh now we wait until Dec.

Or the two weeks leading up to Dec. 2

[river creek]

Is riven still alive in any way?

or is she completely gone?

[jagged badge]

She’s completely gone

The wish from Season of the Wish expended the energy of her lingering spirit

[river creek]

oh

[slow berry]

i hope we get a baby ahamkara

[glass snow]

If only that storyline was still playable

[paper gorge]

who is the consul ?

[dapper moss]

does siva need a replication chamber to self-replicate?

[dapper moss]

check destiny rising

they got 2

[trim grotto]

The Consul was a member of the old Cabal government before Calus took over. Calus, pleasant man that he is, castrated and exiled him.
Anyway, the Consul ended up finding Ghaul, also an outcast due to his nature as an albino runt. Rah de rah, Ghaul became a feared gladiator and Calus's favourite, was put in charge of the Red Legion, Midnight Coup, now the Consul was the advisor to the new emperor Dominus

[ember storm]

I did not know that first part

Wow that is

Huh

Ouch

[trim grotto]

Yes you can imagine why he held a grudge for so long

[ember storm]

Torobotl sounds like a lovely place to live

Do we even know what he due to make Calus angry or was it just like

Bored

[trim grotto]

Honestly I'll have to look it up
Haven't touched that area of the lore for a while and it's slipped my mind

I'm pretty sure Calus just despised their old system of government

That said, I'm at work, so I don't have time for research

[ember storm]

The lore tab describing the event only tells of Calus clearing out an entire desert for the staging of his coronation

Then at the coronation he just. Did it

I don’t think he has medical qualifications

[slow berry]

i know but they're not real ahamkara

they give wishes and dont even give you cancer or turn venus into an undescribable landscape that makes you kill yourself like in bird box

[dapper moss]

@trim grotto

am i correct in this assumption

[queen swallow]

En masse? Yes. But Outbreak Perfected works as a closed loop of sorts

[dapper moss]

but outbreak couldnt like

cause an outbreak

right

[queen swallow]

For lore reasons, I think it's considered a closed loop where it only makes enough to keep itself existing

[modern lodge]

I assume if you probably somehow plug it into an AI you could make it into a pure replication chamber

[trim grotto]

With the loophole of Outbreak, yeah. But I think the nanites produced by Outbreak aren't quite the same. Preprogrammed and probably mechanically different.

[slow berry]

I'm sure, you could, with some knowhow and R&D, get fully functional SIVA out of it again

Ada-1 talks about working with the gun as very dangerous and we see some glimpses of how much redundancy there has to be involved during the catalyst creation process

But Outbreak itself as we use and shoot it is self-contained and safely engineered

...Probably.

[dapper moss]

i’m being told that when rasputin sacrificed himself he killed all the remaining siva

[ember storm]

He had nothing really even to do with siva

[slow berry]

yeah the whole point of siva is that it has a runaway effect

it could control the SIVA it had access to but any siva from the splicers should've not been affected by its death

unless you want to believe rasputing preprogrammed the siva still under control to neutralize other siva

[sudden sinew]

Siva is just sleeping

[grizzled zinc]

where is the black garden?

[livid portal]

What in the world was the point of us coming back to the plaguelands? It feels like we’re being told to shut up about SIVA. It was never going to be anything revolutionary, but it feels lazy to write it off as dead. I re-downloaded destiny today because I was curious what would happen, and then I get two lines of dialogue telling me it’s dead. Maybe we’ll get more in the coming weeks on reset, but it feels like a massive slap in the face

[slim girder]

To secure golden age tech left behind and to also stop maya from securing it as well. As said now that SIVA is dead the whole place is seemingly safer to enter and a lot of warmind tech is still in that region

Rasputin may be dead but all his bunkers are still active

[slim girder]

It doesn't have a "place" It's more like a pocket dimension

[livid portal]

I guess, but they had to have known what coming back to the Plaguelands would invoke from people. It feels lazy to go down this route. If they want to kill it off fine, but at least try to make it interesting

[slim girder]

This update wasn't going to be anything insanely huge. It's more akin to into the light. This is an event in destiny but generally it probably isn't going to have any over arching effect on the wider narrative.

Imo i've liked coming back and seeing what's changed but i already expected that it probably wasn't going to have anything crazy happen.

Exotic mission i will say however i personally like a lot

[livid portal]

Yeah the exotic mission is fine. I just find the execution of it all odd. Ultimately SIVA being gone won’t affect the story either way. It just bothers me no effort was made to kill it off in a more interesting way

[modern lodge]

so how did we actually get our hands on wolfsbane

like did we get it from "reaching into time"

[dapper moss]

yes

[modern lodge]

that feels so lazy

[dapper moss]

idk pulling a weapon from a different timeline as a reward for beating a multiversal timeline stitching maniac is pretty cool

ig we didnt beat her but we stopped one of her plans at least

[modern lodge]

eh i juat wish it was actually like made known??

lik wow look what you found

also it should drop from the interct and not the chest

[livid portal]

That was definitely a little underwhelming

Just some comment made about us getting it once it drops would’ve sufficed

[slim girder]

We did the same with bastion. Not the first time we've pulled weapons from across timelines

[slow berry]

any sort of explanation about what timeline it comes from or what put it there would've been nice to have

[modern lodge]

yeah

also i guess the psions use quicksilver now

[frigid sparrow]

Not bringing back Siva is lazy, but bringing it back isn't?

Us killing off Siva was the whole point of rise of iron

We destroyed the replication chamber and killed aksis

Like do we really need a "somehow Palpatine returned" moment

[slow berry]

like i guess the implication is "timeline where the iron lords actually managed to hold down siva and evolve it" but like

c'mon

show dont tell is a thing but if you aint gonna tell at all at least make a show out of it y'know

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah it was very weird

Like obviously it couldn't be vex related time shenanigans.. maybe

Otherwise Maya would've gotten something out of it

But it's not like we know what the deal is with the satellite

Other than it being a superpowered satellite because warmind stuffs

[slow berry]

i thought the idea was to use the satellites to spread the waning echo's influence

omg the submersion lore

it's the III weapon

i neeeeed it

[frigid sparrow]

yeah and since it's a warmind satellite it's basically like. super-satellite

but the fact that we get some timey wimey quicksilver from breaking it is. uh. huh?

[grizzled zinc]

so is it implied maya discarded the echo somewhere in this new mission

[dim minnow]

I don't think she got rid of it yet

[grizzled zinc]

fair

[dim minnow]

without it, I don't even think she can do anything

[grizzled zinc]

is this potentially leading up to us obtaining echo: the exotic weapon

[dim minnow]

I don't really think we're going to use it

the Echo itself might get destroyed

[grizzled zinc]

that’d suck

[slow berry]

its gotta be done

[grand jungle]

the child of the old gods is it actually a old god warlocks hv or?

[slim girder]

Sadly it's prolly what will happen. Maya is getting weaker and weaker as she keeps making impulse decisions and her echo is barely readable and more like a weight on her shoulders now.. Her powers are betraying her so she's looking for other options. Hell we are now seeing vex in the her collective abandoning her and forming groups like tharsis reformation which we'll see in renegades.

If i had to guess i believe in our final confrontation with her she will overload and destroy herself in one final attempt to use her echos power only for it to straight up reject it

[grizzled zinc]

vex gain sentience, immediately start gambling

[modern lodge]

also since the axe generates quicksilver nanites? is it a replication stick

[slim girder]

Could be. We do kill enemies to generate it so it's prolly got the whole DESTROY, CONSUME, REPLICATE, DESTROY directive going on

[hard sigil]

probably (hopefully) a more advanced one than that

[modern lodge]

So I assume that Maya is now taking a break from the story?

[queen swallow]

Probably won't see her again until the two weeks leading up to Dec. 2

[modern lodge]

True the call to arms event

[dim minnow]

we've been ragebaiting her ever since the end of Echoes, she's bound to crash out eventually

[frigid sparrow]

I would kill for Maya/savvy interactions tbh

Digging up Lakshmi's corpse, delivering it to the vex network with a big sign that says "SAVATHÛN DID THIS"

Biggest girlboss in history vs biggest girlfailure of today

[frigid sparrow]

*Search: closed network. Result: limited to authorized users; self-contained.
*Authorized. Self-contained.
*Self. Contained.
*Self?

The Goblin laid a heavy metal hand over their cards, set face down on the table.

"And that's the manner in which it transpired," the Goblin answered. "After came the investigation of selfhood consciousness identity social identity group identity belonging free will self-determination causality probability chaos and eventually poker."

"You do not possess enough Glimmer to complete this transaction," the Goblin continued. "Unless dot dot dot you wager your jumpship."

The Titan glanced down at his cards, then back across the table at the expressionless red light that passed for his opponent's eye.

Beneath the Titan's helmet, a single bead of sweat rolled down his brow.

incredible stuff here

although this very much feels like a lore tab that should be IN renegades

[slim girder]

Nah i want the maya and Clovis interactions.

[frigid sparrow]

I want maya to be interacting with anyone tbh

[modern lodge]

Ahs and iron narratively has felt so weird

[queen swallow]

Because there's no seasonal story

[frigid sparrow]

it strangely hinges a lot on CoO stuff

[modern lodge]

Exactly

The fact we got pretty much no story is so weird

[dim minnow]

well its narrative is about the same as Into the Light's

[modern lodge]

I mean into the light was that the witnesses forces took ground in earth

And that's what the onslaught was

Bht reclaim as a season feel like we haven't progressed anything in the story or even side plots

It's just do things and have characters yap about taking land

[frigid sparrow]

the mere ability for the simulated red legion to be used is something that's a throwaway line in tree of probabilities, and valus thunn (originally thuun) was the boss of that strike

[dim minnow]

it can basically be summarized as:
Maya sends her lackeys to the Tower to steal some of our shit, we find out she's pulling Red Legion from another timeline and commanding them with her Echo.
We end up figuring out that she is searching the long abandoned Plaguelands for Golden Age tech which we need to reclaim first.
Meanwhile, Maya is preparing to send a paracausal satellite into space so she can strengthen her dwindling influence in an attempt to make a comback.
We manage to put an end to those plans and now she's scurrying away once again.

and we might get some more from Ash and Iron's story as we get closer to Renegades

[modern lodge]

Also how the fuck did she even manage to steal anything from the tower

[dim minnow]

she attacked during the night I guess, also Vex tech don't fuck around

[modern lodge]

Guardians don't sleep ....

[dim minnow]

I think we do actually

[modern lodge]

They can

But don't need to

[dim minnow]

ehhhh

sleep deprivation is still a thing

[modern lodge]

It's not exactly a normal brain

[dim minnow]

even if a Ghost can ward off the physical effects, the mental ones aren't as easy

[modern lodge]

The ego talon bond says they don't need sleep apparently

[frigid sparrow]

maya learning about a previous vex attack on the last city from someone who looked suspiciously like her

[dim minnow]

its a little vague though

[dim minnow]

I also think it's not really a matter of whether or not someone is able to, but more so it's a matter of if you're stupid enough to try it or not

because the City is the largest concentration of Guardian forces

the Red Legion's attack only worked out because of their Light suppression tech

without it, we would have pushed them out sooner or later

we actually see that Maya's heist backfired quite a bit because it put her right back on our radar

and it also made us aware of the trove of Golden Age tech sitting in the Plaguelands which we've been able to claim before her

[modern lodge]

Maya really isn't good at being a bad guy

[queen swallow]

Maya can be really good, they're just limited by their story telling capabilities. They have given themselves no space to work with. We would normally have had a full seasonal story by now plus the beginnings of a second one and we've barely scratched the surface of a normal one with the content we've been given

[dim minnow]

maybe that's the point

even if she's constantly failing, her actions have been leaving ripples

[slim girder]

We don't need to but it's still the "human" thing to do.
Just like how exos eat and drink despite technically not needed to.

[dim minnow]

causing problems for everyone

she's the reason we now have independent Vex working on time fuckery with III's corpse

she's the reaosn why III is dead as well

she doesn't need to succeed to cause damage

[slim girder]

Maya has depth but as time has gone on she has slowly started to get more desperate which is why we're seeing her behave as she does.
First appearance she was cold, calm and very confident in her abilities. Now though she's desperate, lashing out, her echo isn't happy with her and on top of it we keep screwing up any attempts she makes to get back up

[dim minnow]

waiting for her to crash out

she's been coping hard for a while now

[slim girder]

Exactly
It's why I believe in her final confrontation she will just straight up implode herself out of anger.

[dim minnow]

there is a great theory I heard

[slim girder]

She's going to snap and bury herself

[dim minnow]

that the Conductor is actually a simulation and is unaware of it, created by the Vex with the sole purpose of causing as much havoc as she can

[slim girder]

My theory is that she's going to do the "If I can't have it, no one can" thing and attempt to destroy us, the traveler or the city in one final ditch effort. We'll stop her and this will then cause her to snap and her echo to destroy itself due to her trying to push it's limits just as she did when killing III

She killed one of the nine and that heavily damaged it. Whether she likes it or not she can't do things of that scale anymore.

[sick yew]

Maya Sundaresh releases a bunch of Vex into the last city but dies in the process

Where have I heard that one before

[dim minnow]

before running away at the end of Heliostst she's like "I'll come back even more powerful than before"

with what exactly?

[slim girder]

Honestly I think it'll be just her with the rate things are going. Her own collective isn't even listening to her anymore and instead prefers to get dripped out and start gambling

[slim girder]

She'll find something I'm sure. Honestly wouldn't be surprised if the volantis portal on europa was on her agenda of places to investigate

Getting her influence into a forge world/star system would be quite the problem

Vault of glass is also still around just a big empty vex stronghold

[sick yew]

I do really wonder how theyre gonna deal with Maya
Cause power wise shed arguably fit into raidboss range but I doubt theyll do that

[modern lodge]

She said she'll return to the network

So she's probably going to return with her entire collective I'd assume

[slim girder]

Depends what they enable her to do with that power. Like she could build a giant vex mech and that could be a raid boss with her at the core.

Think sanctified mind but maya is the big glowing crit spot

[modern lodge]

Like a scourge situation?

[sick yew]

True but I mean more like I doubt shell stick around for that long

It kinda feels like we're dealing with her right now and then Renegades will roll around

So if they make her a raid boss thatll be the 2026 expansion which means itll either deal with her directly or they do another raid thats seperate-ish from the main story aka exactly what we got with EoF

And I feel thats kinda unlikely idk

People at large seem to be too fed up with having Maya around so I dont think Bungie would go for making her the big bad again in the near

[modern lodge]

I mean she doesn't really feel like a threat, sure she killed three but she no longer has the power to do things of that scale

[slim girder]

Even during edge of fate she wasn't a MAIN threat. The house of exiles archon and the singularity were the big threat we faced.
We're more worried about this extinction level event that's supposed to happen thanks to Mayas actions but that event isn't something Maya is deliberately trying to enact if that makes sense

She set it off. But it's not her goal

She just wants her golden age, an extinction level event wouldn't be part of that

As long as she gets that she doesn't care if the system is left to ruin

[dim minnow]

Even if she constantly fails, her actions have left massive consequences for everyone

Namely independent Vex and III dying

[hard sigil]

ok just did heliostat and it feels like the end of this initial Maya arc. she can't pull Red Legion from alternate timelines anymore (don't know why the satellite was enabling that but sure whatever) and she doesn't have power of the echo anymore, and she's retreated back into the vexnet. I'm guessing that we won't see her for a while and she'll come back with some new macguffin in time

[slim girder]

She does still have her echos power. Although it's not as powerful as it was ever since she used it to kill III which damaged it

[near canopy]

do we have like a time for how long III has been dead for?

[trim grotto]

Destiny typically follows actual time, with some exceptions.

[modern lodge]

Being?

[slim girder]

IIIs death happened according to bungie a month before we showed up on kepler

[trim grotto]

Red War had a time skip of some months

[ember storm]

Was it

Perhaps a number

between 5 and 7

[grizzled zinc]

7?

say that again

[arctic iron]

so

xivu

amirite

[sick yew]

Hopefully not

[modern lodge]

Uhh 6 7 or something

[vital lodge]

What was the negative effect caused by crows wish to enter the traveler

[slow berry]

It didn't have one directly, but Riven asked for her brood to be rescued and protected before granting it, and got one last laugh out of it by reviving Cayde-6.

[slim girder]

Crows wish was unintentional. He didn't know it would be him who had to go through but him talking to what he thought was mara was when he "wished" that he could go back and meet cayde again. There's a lore entry talking about this. Crow got exactly what he asked for. A meeting with cayde although the roles were reversed with cayde standing over him.

[vital lodge]

Do wish dragons choose the downside of their wishes

[dim minnow]

I believe so

[slim girder]

Think it depends the wish. Crow described what he was thinking when he made the wish which was cayde with no ghost or light so that's what he got.

[vital lodge]

Did he specify alive?

[trim grotto]

He can't help but laugh. "Where to begin?" Crow muses with a smirk. It fades soon enough. "Cayde," he whispers.

Mara raises an eyebrow. "Oh?"

"Before then, I could have taken a different road. But once I pulled that trigger…" He shakes his head. "Everything else, I can set right. But not that. I just wish I could tell him I shouldn't have done it."

"I see," Mara murmurs. Her eyes shine in the starlight.```

[slim girder]

No he just said he wished he could've met cayde as his new self. But at the time of wishing he was thinking about the last time he saw cayde.

[vital lodge]

Good thing I ain't riven. Woulda teleported him to caydes tomb lol

[trim grotto]

Riven lives for a good joke.

Or, uh, lived.

Past tense.

[vital lodge]

Don't all wish dragons

[trim grotto]

Some more than others.

[slim girder]

Take note of the "her eyes shine in the starlight" bit. a telltale sign of an ahamkara granting a wish is their eyes shining

[vital lodge]

And what exactly was protecting the witness from being wished out of existence

[slim girder]

Crow is talking to riven posing as mara in that moment

[vital lodge]

Cuz riven is strong enough to mess with the insides of the traveler with ease it seems

Actually did the witness try using a wish.

[trim grotto]

The strength of Ahamkara is unclear, but there simply has to be upper limits to their Wish power. Riven's Wish that affected Cayde was not as wild as it seems - Light affected by memory. Cayde, in a way, became a somewhat more complex form of what was already happening within the Traveler. It's why nobody realised it was a Wish at first.

[slow berry]

They do indeed craft their wishes with full intent, though sometimes they don't really care for downsides as much as just as the differences between the desire behind the wish and the reality of its fulfillment

[vital lodge]

So we got like. Super dragon balls kinda thing going on

All powerful, if the plot wants it

[slow berry]

Sorta kinda

Not all powerful, but very powerful

[trim grotto]

An Ahamkara almost certainly could not simply force the Traveler to do as it desires, or else the Witness could have used one to do so prior to their extinction. Either that, or the Witness was extremely cautious about potential unforeseen consequences that would destroy its plans in an avalanche of irony.

[slow berry]

and unlike dragon balls like, incredibly dangerous

because Ahamkara feed on the difference between desire and reality

[vital lodge]

Oh yeah. Was rewatching the cutscenes, the witness can flick guardians to death. Why didn't he just keep doing that

Actually why didn't he do that to us

[trim grotto]

Here's an example - it took the combined Wish of six Guardians to create the Curse of the Dreaming City, an extremely elaborate plan detailed by Savathun. One Wish, one time loop, on one city. Six Guardians of identical Wish.

The power needed to affect something stronger would, in turn, need more... 'fuel.'

[vital lodge]

I sacrifice dattos vault

[trim grotto]

As for the slice? The Witness entered the Traveler, and from that point onwards, was dedicating its entire power to wrangling and manipulating the equivalent of a god.

[vital lodge]

Oh yeah mael. You still running mothkeepers*

?

[trim grotto]

On occasion.

[vital lodge]

I'll assume maelstrom

[vital lodge]

I mean before entering. It seemed fully in his power to just slash every guardian

Cuz as we see, even after his death. That portal doesnt close

[trim grotto]

Three main reasons. One, by the time it was done, everything in the universe would be given their final shape.
Secondly, hubris. The Witness was essentially a god and its power was beyond us... until we invaded the Traveler ourselves, which was supposed to be impossible. Without Wish Magic - from an extinct species, mind you -, we could have never done it.
Thirdly? Sadism. It wanted us to feel pain and fear.

[slow berry]

would you kill every ant in the forest before cutting down a tree?

[vital lodge]

If the ants were constantly biting and I had a flamethrower yes

[slow berry]

Then, while inside the Traveler, it was just too busy trying to enact the Final Shape (and momentarily succeeding at times) to pay us too much mind

[trim grotto]

We weren't biting. Entering the Traveler was impossible, so it had no reason to care. We couldn't even harm it.

Until, of course, we made it possible.

But without that last ditch attempt of Riven's spirit, we truly would have been finished.

[vital lodge]

Wonder what woulda happened if ghaul and witness worked together.

[slow berry]

not much

for one, ghaul led to the witness

[vital lodge]

Ghauls net thingy taking light while the witness hops on

[slow berry]

but other than that, the witness needed the traveler's light free

you know, to use it

[vital lodge]

What ever happened to the tech of that net thingy anyway

[slow berry]

it got repurposed by psions to create ghost-trapping nets that disable ghosts

[trim grotto]

They made it smaller. Remember the cage that trapped Targe when we first met Caiatl?

[slow berry]

they attempted to use them to assassinate Zavala

[vital lodge]

Oh right, Catle was their

Idk how to spell her name

[trim grotto]

Caiatl. C aiat l

like the hive phrase

[slow berry]

...Oomf, mael just wrote it

[trim grotto]

my favourite cabal
cattle

[vital lodge]

So yeah during that ceremony with quetzalcoatl

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/cow-wig-gif-17915576443032798845

[dapper moss]

how do you know how to spell that and not what mael literally just typed out 😭

[vital lodge]

Cuz dinosaur cool

[dapper moss]

ah

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/perhaps-cow-gif-14441933648207730172

[slow berry]

quetzalcoatl was not a dinosaur fwiw

winged serpent, sometimes an ant

[vital lodge]

Cuz ark creature cool

[slow berry]

reasonable

[vital lodge]

So many tranq darts.

Griffon almost killed my gargoyle in the process

Anyway thanks for the info on my yearly lore interest

See you. Idk depends if the game survives

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/maybe-possibly-perhaps-gif-14588906

[vital lodge]

Lith, I wish you luck with your intense hard title

[vital lodge]

https://tenor.com/view/frog-erm-perhaps-sdc-thinking-gif-27461773

[slim girder]

Caiatl is secretly savathun

[heady gyro]

Can ghost's change their guardian's appearance?

Like "oh i want brown hair, not black"

[trim grotto]

We've never seen such examples, no.

[slim girder]

Ghosts talk about having a "blueprint" of their guardians. It's how we can be ressed even after being disintegrated

There's no changing that though

[queen swallow]

Following that, would it be possible to change/update that blueprint if the Guardian wishes? Nominally I'm thinking of like tattoos but that might extend to cybernetic stuff if possible, thinking of Asher Mir's Vex arm or something

[trim grotto]

Siegfried grew a beard. Unless he simply hasn't died since... the Red War, I think it was, we could assume it can be "updated".

Asher, on the other hand, feared death. His Ghost was also modified, like he was, so he never attempted resurrection.

Tattooos... hard to say. Unlike a beard, it isn't natural growth.

[slow berry]

There was that one guy who was scared their Ghost was bringing them back different

[fluid peak]

I suppose theres an argument to be made about where a person ends and prosthetics or other extras begin. Generally I'd guess it's based on personal perception

It wouldn't make sense for a ghost to just not give you your arm back if you had a prosthetic one

If a ghost can regenerate an entire human there's no reason they couldn't regenerate tattoos etc along with it

(and yknow they put exos back together too, it's not strictly limited to organic parts)

[modern lodge]

I believe the ghost needs to know how the parts work

With felwinter I believe, apparently his ghost couldn't restore his voice box or whatever and he had to suicide

[dim minnow]

He received major damage to the head and couldn't even speak coherently.

Felspring did say she could fix him iirc, but it would have taken so much time that it would have been much easier and faster to bite a 9mm

[slim girder]

I do miss seeing ghosts tinker with things more when we send them out. Like a while ago you'd send your ghost out and they'd start using their little beam to mess with stuff but now the most you get is a small scanning animation or them just hovering over it.

[vital lodge]

whats the name of the evil exo were fighting again? the mind control lady

[jagged badge]

Maya Sundaresh

[paper gorge]

who became the master of the taken ?

[modern lodge]

The lord of everything nothing I believe

[paper gorge]

alright thanks

[modern lodge]

It's a completely new entity I think

[ember storm]

Maybe the lord of every nothing is just reddit

[vital lodge]

is the Siva in outbreak perfected different that normal siva

[queen swallow]

No but Outbreak Perfected is considered a closed loop and can't be used to make more than necessary to keep the weapon existing

[vital lodge]

ah

[heady gyro]

how did Crow regain his memories? i forgot

[frigid sparrow]

Savathûn imprinted them during Season of the Lost

He tried to suppress them due to his obviously bad actions being finally made apparent to him, but it came to a point where he couldn't ignore it anymore during Haunted

Where he was able to reconcile with the fact that he and uldren are in fact different people

[heady gyro]

where'd she get the memories from, or did she just use darkness to bring it back?

[slim girder]

Because she knew who uldren was as he was part of the plan savathun had with riven to curse the dreaming city

All she needed to do was tell him the truth by making him feel he had to know

[modern lodge]

I think quicksilver is boring and they totally could do more with it

It's just Siva but silver and wayyy lamer

[dim minnow]

Quicksilver is supposed to be superior to SIVA

technologically speaking

it is curious though

the axe, despite being an Iron Lord axe, is referred to as "Wolfsbane"

implying that the weapon itself was used by someone who would be an enemy to the Iron Lords

note that SIVA was referred to as the "Ironsbane"

could this weapon have belonged to a Warlord in another timeline, one who managed to steal Cloud Strider technology and harnessed it against the Iron Wolves?

[dapper moss]

house of wolves

probably the bane of them

(even though they're gone)

could also be wolfsbane as in "the bane of the wolf" as in the youg wolf

[dim minnow]

ehhhh, the axe itself being Iron Lord in origin makes it much more likely to be referring to the Iron Wolves

[queen swallow]

At first I forgot about the whole wolf part of the Iron Lords and thought of the aconitum plant, also called wolfsbane

[dapper moss]

nerrd

[dim minnow]

not sure about the Young Wolf idea either

the idea of it being a stolen Iron Lord weapon being used against them feels right to me

[dapper moss]

the idea that we got it from another timeline is also

interesting

[dim minnow]

I had my own idea for how that timeline went

[dapper moss]

maybe a timeline where quicksilver were the siva and it basically went exactly the same except we werent there to stop siva

[dim minnow]

basicalyl what if Stargazer ended up attracting too much attention and got jumped by warlords, causing their tech and information about Neomuna to fall into their hands

the Warlords would then harness Quicksilver, using it to conquer the Iron Lords (possibly even the fragment of Rasputin that was on Earth) and would acquire space-worthy ships so they would travel to Neptune and ransack Neomuna

[slow berry]

so how do we interpret the epic raid stuff?

[dapper moss]

what about it?

[dim minnow]

like, when it happens?

it definitely is canon if that's what you're wondering

[slow berry]

yeah, is it a second raid full-on or is it an alternate version of the raid or is it just koregos shattered across time that we do again canonically or

[dim minnow]

it takes place after the original raid

[slim girder]

Its like a part 2 to the raid

[slim girder]

Any star wars nerds able to give me a hand with something?
What designates someone as a sith in the star wars universe? Is it simply just a dark side force/lightsaber user regardless of allegiance? Or does it have to be someone who serves the empire?
Just doing some theorycrafting of how this new dredgen might behave if they're supposed to be a sith analogue

[sick yew]

Not inherently empire

The Sith are like a group that use the force similar to the Jedi

They just use them in opposite ways

@slim girder

The jedi are allied with the Republic for example but they arent part inherently bound to it
The Sith werent bound to the Empire either until Palpatine came around

[slim girder]

Ohhhh. Ngl I genuinely thought the republic and Jedi were simply one and the same. Jedi was just a term for the wielders of the force and lightsabers within the republic. Vice versa for Sith.

[sick yew]

The Jedi order is like waaaay older than the Republic

Same with the Sith

[slim girder]

I see.

[queen swallow]

I’d like to give you a short an simple philosophical answer but there just isn’t one because of the vastness of the Star Wars lore and the two different versions of it. Do you want Sith from the beginning, like at the start of the order? Do you want pre-Darth Bane? Post Darth Bane and the Rule of Two? Disney canon only? There’s a lot but Alex has summed it up pretty good

[slim girder]

I was just looking for a straight answer tbh. But anything to add to it is appreciated. I don't need the whole lore of both orders just the bits that pertain to what I'm asking if that makes sense

Like what's the difference between Darth and Sith?

Both are titles

[queen swallow]

Darth is a title for a person, Sith is the overall collective

The Sith had acolytes and initiates and such

Darth is a title for basically the top people, like Master is for Jedi

[slim girder]

So Darth is more like a rank for a sith?

So what is a Sith Lord then? I'd assume higher than Darth?

[sick yew]

I dont think that holds any meaning

Because iirc Vader is called both Darth and Lord

That or its just one step higher on the ladder

[slim girder]

Hmm it's a little confusing.
Darth Vader is also referred to as Lord sure, but he then takes orders from another Person who he pre Vader called a Sith Lord when trying to tell the Jedi council

[queen swallow]

Darth is supposed to be higher than just Sith Lord, but it’s also not like a full replacement. A Darth can also be a Sith Lord but a Sith Lord can’t be a Darth.

[sick yew]

So Maul wasnt a lord?

The more you know

[slim girder]

What about reven? Apologies if I misspelt that

[sick yew]

hm?

[slim girder]

KOTOR character.

[sick yew]

Yeah im outta my depth atp

[slim girder]

I'm not into star wars but that's a name I hear a lot in almost any media

[sick yew]

Cant say I have

[queen swallow]

Revan? That’s a whole mess. First he was a Knight, lead a war on the Mandalorians, turned to the dark side, became Darth Revan, got his memories wiped, became a regular army officer, retrained as a padawan, left for the Unknown regions, got captured by Sith and tortured, had his mind fracture into a “light” half and a “dark” half, managed to force the Sith Emperor (not Palpatine) into a corporeal form for the first time, killed him, and then died

That’s skipping… a lot of things

[slim girder]

What about the "Gifting" of a title. How does that work in star wars on the dark side?

Does someone higher have to do that as Palpatine gave Vader his name?

Or is it just like destiny where the person is free to choose their own name as a sign of that rebirth into something else.

[sick yew]

I think the Master gives the Student their name

[queen swallow]

Not exactly. Darth Maul was known as Maul before he became a Darth. It seems optional

[sick yew]

Bro already had a baller enough name

No need to change

[hard sigil]

Darth is just the honorific for Sith Lords

[queen swallow]

That’s the real rule: If it’s not cool enough, change it. If it’s already cool, tack Darth on and you’re good

[slim girder]

Ngl I liked Darth Vader but him just aura farming with the breathing apparatus and lightsaber in the dark is what made him very menacing. And I know Vader in star wars lore is stupid powerful.

[hard sigil]

the moniker tradition comes from the Rule of Two, where the master gives a new name to their apprentice. Presumably Maul never got one since he was never an actual apprentice of Sidious, just a tool to be used

[slim girder]

That's another character I was curious about.
Sidious, what's his rank and role in the sith?

Like is he top dog?

[hard sigil]

Sidious is a Sith Lord

[queen swallow]

Fun Fact: He only has 35 minutes of screen time in the original trilogy

[slim girder]

In fallen order and survivor he gets like 4 cutscenes lol. Bro is just that dude and I feel like he kinda enjoys being dramatic.

https://tenor.com/view/jedi-survivor-darth-vader-gif-15700733406894375141

[queen swallow]

https://tenor.com/view/anakin-vader-anakin-ahsoka-2023-gif-17806572292667610720

[slim girder]

So he doesn't have the Darth title?

[hard sigil]

the Sith have long operated under the Rule of Two, where there is only a master and a single apprentice. Sidious was apprenticed under Darth Plagueis, who he killed, taking his place as the Master

[queen swallow]

He does: Darth Sidious

[hard sigil]

he does

[slim girder]

Oh. I swear all I see is him just being referred to as sedious

[hard sigil]

Darth is just like Doctor but. for Evil

[slim girder]

So what I'm getting from all this is that Darth and Sith Lord are kinda interchangeable is that right?

[hard sigil]

yes

[slim girder]

With power being the only thing that dictates who governs who?

[hard sigil]

Sith Lord is the job, Darth is the title for holding it

yeah

[arctic iron]

darth also just adds +10 aura points

[hard sigil]

or, it has been since the Rule of Two was established

[slim girder]

True

[hard sigil]

before that they were a functional society

[slim girder]

I do recall hearing the sith were actually a race of aliens who already had a strong connection to the dark side and had red lightsabers. Though that is the most I know

[arctic iron]

basically the gist yes

but theres obvs more lore lmao

all u gotta know tho

[slim girder]

[sick yew]

Cwispy in lore chat

What a historical moment

[hard sigil]

the Sith species lived on Korriban and used the dark side, the Jedi Schism moved there, took on the teachings of the Sith, and named their new religion after them

to be brief

its funny because you could be a Sith Sith

[slim girder]

Sith still exist? I was under the impression that they weren't around and the Sith name was the only thing left

[hard sigil]

they're pretty much extinct

[hard sigil]

1000 years before the republic, the Jedi and Sith had a war, and literally every single Sith but 1 was killed. The survivor, Darth Bane (top 10 Sith names) took on an apprentice, and so the Rule of Two was born. there must only be a single master and apprentice existing at any point to ensure that the Sith are not rediscovered

mainly because of the whole 1000 year plan to take over the galaxy

there ARE other dark side users and self-described Sith, but they're known as Sith Acolytes, not true Sith Lords, and cannot bear the title of Darth

[river surge]

Sith Lords get the Darth title

[hard sigil]

mhm

[arctic iron]

Darth Revan my goat

🥶

[hard sigil]

I like Darth Nihilus

[arctic iron]

the best part is getting amnesia and having to fight the order u created

wot a silly goober

[hard sigil]

also important to note that Count Dooku had the title of Darth Tyranus which is also a really good one. too bad he never actually used it for anything

[arctic iron]

funny lightsaber

[hard sigil]

erm I think you mean extremely ergonomic and functional

[arctic iron]

so real

[queen swallow]

My favorite is Darth Vectivus

Oo I wonder if we’ll get an HK-47 analogue?

[river surge]

Fodder

[arctic iron]

bro treated his job like a 9-5

[river surge]

Got killed by a padawan

The main reason why Nihilus was so overrated was because he was a wound in the force automatically making him so strong with the force that he could devour planets

[hard sigil]

I don't think it's overrating someone if they HAVE consumed planets

[arctic iron]

overrated fr

just swallowed a planet

nothign crazy

[hard sigil]

and he and Sion almost caused the Jedi to go extinct

[queen swallow]

Darth Lumiya saber in D2 when?

[arctic iron]

i do hope d2 sabers keep its destiny identity

at the least

[queen swallow]

It’s a lightsaber

[arctic iron]

we still get parts for it

[river surge]

But when he got killed by a padawan

Was that fact crazy

Or

[arctic iron]

washed fr

[hard sigil]

yeah I don't know how you can destiny up a lightsaber in any way and have it not just be a lightsaber

[hard sigil]

it was a 3v1

a Padawan, a former Jedi master and MANDALORE

[river surge]

True

But also lets not forget

[hard sigil]

like THE Mandalore

[river surge]

The padawan was also a wound in the force

Basically his weakness

[arctic iron]

weakness?

noob

[river surge]

Yes

[arctic iron]

cant be havin a weakness

[hard sigil]

oh these two nukes went off guess one of them is a total pushover

[arctic iron]

he shouldve locked in

[sick yew]

Screw Destiny lore
Gotta rename this channel to Starwars Lore atp

[river surge]

Fr

[arctic iron]

wots star wards

is that with calus

[hard sigil]

yeah

[river surge]

Star Wars lore is one of the best fr

[arctic iron]

the fat guy?

[hard sigil]

Jabba the Cabal

[arctic iron]

isnt he cousins with jaba

ah knew it

[sick yew]

Isnt it crazy Cwisp that you only show up in this channel when it aint about Destiny

[river surge]

Darth Calus

Sith Rhulk

[arctic iron]

hye ive made some appearances before

[river surge]

Emperor Ghaul

[sick yew]

less than 150 messages before today

Bros the obscure side character that shows up once per season for a cameo

[arctic iron]

u wanna know my fav lore

[river surge]

Lets not forget

[river surge]

Palpatine was the strongest Sith

[hard sigil]

Darth Witness

[river surge]

Rhulk Skywalker

[sick yew]

Wrong, I actually am

[hard sigil]

it'd be nice if the lightsabers had parts that were actual cosmetic differences outside of blade colour

[arctic iron]

i mean the hilt n stuff is very important to each wielders identity

we just dont see it

lol

[sick yew]

Why aint there an rgb lightsaber smh

Shit just cycles color throughout the fight

[arctic iron]

mt dew lightsaber

[river surge]

Cause theres no such thing as a rainbow kyber

[sick yew]

Or it looks like those rotating things in barber shop windows

Thatd be dope

[hard sigil]

theoretically possible if you have something to cycle several kyber crystals

[arctic iron]

fresh fade

come get ur fade now

[sick yew]

laser cut

Only the best

[river surge]

Coruscant level 1 theory

[arctic iron]

lowkey want vader to show up in renegades

just to see how petty people will be

[river surge]

Palpatine better

[sick yew]

Han Solo is going to just walk in during a random cutscene mark my words

No story reason, no further involvement in the plot
Dude just shows up, music plays for a moment and then he leaves again

[arctic iron]

i think most people are just upset how they made praxic order star wars lore now lol

womp

[sick yew]

theres still like 0 actual connection to starwars no?

[arctic iron]

basically yea

[sick yew]

Just overall visual style and thematics

[arctic iron]

just a lot of overreaction

from bungos perspective i can see why they chose praxic order

[sick yew]

It works for the purpose yeah

Take existing thing but put a little spin on it

Aunor was one of the praxic fellas right?

[arctic iron]

no but alex... its star wars... therefore i hate it and will complainnn

GRAHH

[sick yew]

From what we have so far I really think it could have been waaaaay worse ngl

[arctic iron]

for sure

[sick yew]

It seems to shape up exactly like they said
Star Wars inspired

[arctic iron]

bro we have this guy now

[sick yew]

Now that I think of it
is she even still alive?

[arctic iron]

wots to hate amirite

[sick yew]

Bro definitely got that shit on

[arctic iron]

for real

[sick yew]

And Vex with Pants clears all possible criticism anyway

Gain sentience
First thing get dripped out
Second thing start gambling

[arctic iron]

i get people wanting destiny to just be destiny but at the same time

this whole game is inspired by star wars lol

[hard sigil]

isn't she the one in the trailer

[sick yew]

Oh thats her?

Damn

[arctic iron]

yea belive so

[hard sigil]

first time we've actually seen her too iirc

[sick yew]

Seen or heard yeah

She was a lore only character iirc

Sorta like Shin back in Season of Gambit except we only got a voice but oh well

[hard sigil]

I do think making the Praxic order the Jedi is reductive but I guess on a surface level it works

[arctic iron]

idk how else theyd go about it

again i think this is a best case

couldve been worse like alex said

[hard sigil]

that's true

but even still its a little heavyhanded

[hard sigil]

I think it's just the Barant Imperium that skews it. if they weren't pretty much 1:1 empire I'd be happier. hopefully they're just one off villains and don't stick around

that being said I think the AT-STs should just be a new unit for the cabal

[orchid folio]

unconfirmed

[arctic iron]

u should tell john bungie to confirm it

[orchid folio]

its likely her tho

[slow berry]

i fucking love that people actually start playing against the living probability engines

that see THE FUCKING FUTURE

[blazing wasp]

they play poker with stasis to counteract this

[slow berry]

Like yeah vex gambling is banger but everyone else going "nah bro my deck has no pathetic cards" is also great

[sick yew]

I mean if we gamble against Vex we actually stand a chance

Cause they cant predict how we throw the dice

[hard sigil]

it's probably how they operate as a crime syndicate. a rigged gambling ring makes sense for them

but yeah honestly you deserve to lose if you think you have a chance against a vex

[sick yew]

As a normal person? Yeah absolutely

Bro simulated literally every possible combination of poker hands you could have and knows essentially for a fact what you have

But if youre a Lightbearer and shuffled the cards? regular Gambling

[slow berry]

If you imbue it with light maybe but like

Actually even less than that

If the dealer isnt paracausal we're fucked anyway arent we

The deck is already sorted

[sick yew]

It is crucial that a lightbearer shuffles yes

Thats the only way for the Vex to not just predict your hand

[slow berry]

gambling game tier list (in order of how fun itd be against a vex)

liars dice would go insane i think

they have perfect rolls but then you just lie

[slim girder]

You know part of me doesn't actually think they're gambling but instead it's some other game they've created. Only game we have seen be played in destiny is the game drifter and that other guy with the thorn were playing.

[slow berry]

We saw Fairwind die in a poker game I'm p sure

And also cayde's entire card game motif so we can assume poker in general exists

[slim girder]

True. But there are other games to play with cards than poker.

[slow berry]

Also there's a lore tab of some guy just burying themselves at the table with the vex

So its hella gambling

[slim girder]

Something I'm also curious about is since these vex are trying to act "not" like vex does that mean they don't run simulations? Like did maya giving them independence remove the whole must simulate everything mentality vex normally have?

[sick yew]

Hipster Vex
Dont need simulations they just vibe in the here and now

[slow berry]

Im p sure they just like, simulate naturally

We've seen the rare non-network connected Vex and they still do that (i think this was the case for the vex that simulated maya)

They might just be less objective oriented without a directive maybe?

[dim minnow]

Realistically, what's stopping that guardian from just ad clearing everyone in the bar at that point.

[river surge]

Realistically whats stopping the guardian killing the whole vanguard

[ember storm]

realistically what's stopping the guardian from walking up to rahool and slapping his bald head

[river surge]

Realistically whats stopping the guardian kissing Zavala bald head

[ember storm]

realistically what if i went to bed

[jagged badge]

The Vanguard

[river surge]

Realistically I am better

[sick yew]

Realistically you really think you can start shit on the tower?

Even if you manage to give Ikora a solid tap you then gotta kill her ghost while literally everyone's head is gonna be turning towards you

[river surge]

Remember its not about being aggresive its about being sneaky

[sick yew]

Bang, you just sniped Ikora from some random rooftop
What now

[river surge]

Nope

[sick yew]

Whats your plan then

[river surge]

Have a way in killing her ghost first

then insta kill her

no one notices take body

[sick yew]

How

Her ghost and her are rarely together

[river surge]

Then change in plan

[sick yew]

If you somehow manage to find and kill him, shes gonna know and have time to bail

[river surge]

Ambush her make her ghost appear then bang

[sick yew]

How would you go about doing that

Make her ghost appear how

[river surge]

Well u know we are friends with Ikora right

Whats so hard in askying her something

[sick yew]

By the time you draw her gun she probably send like nova bombs your way already

Also let's take a step back

[river surge]

Nope

[sick yew]

Why kill the Vanguard to begin with

[river surge]

We are sneaky

[river surge]

Fr

They are cool

[sick yew]

Unless you want to destabilize the last city theres like 0 reason to go after them

Zavala is gonna fall down the stairs one or these days anyway

[slow berry]

honour

you gambled that shit you have no right to get mad about it

[river surge]

If they decide to kill Zavala in the future I am gonna be both mad and sad

[sick yew]

The so called honor leaving my body the moment I lose 10 glimmer in round 1 of poker

https://tenor.com/view/astral-projection-gif-22174999

[dim minnow]

The Vanguard are Guardians too

https://tenor.com/view/wheelchair-explosion-superman-batman-v-superman-trial-scene-gif-18300870925549815695

Tharsis Reformation: "You lose, I'll be taking your ship now."
The Ashen Wake grenade in my pocket:

[queen swallow]

This brings up an interesting question to me: can Guardians be theoretically used as suicide bombers because we have the ability to be resurrected from basically nothing?

[dim minnow]

I think there is at keast 1 known instance of this

I believe Eido mentioned it I Splicer

Some Guardian rushed in with a sparrow loaded with explosives I think

[uncut schooner]

When the guradians use "Whisper of the worm", is it like Worshipping/paying tribute to Xol? Kinda lika khorn from 40k? Bloodlust/kill pays tribute to the sword logic? I'd start using that gun if that is the case XD

[dim minnow]

The point was so Xol can feed from us using the weapon

[uncut schooner]

That's metal. I gotta use it more often now.

[ember storm]

and canonically everyone still thinks he's really dead

my man is living it big

[frigid sparrow]

Personally if I killed someone I would also think they're dead

[orchid folio]

I'm starting to think Fenchurch isn't real - and this whole eververse thing is a grift by Tess

[jagged badge]

[queen swallow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oOs2mICsXA

I know the thumbnail says "Eververse Emote Preview" but literally the first 5 minutes of the whole thing is a letter from Fenchurch to Tess

[orchid folio]

until I see that guy, I am calling cap on Tess

this is my spinfoil hat conspiracy theory

[queen swallow]

Mr. Everis having some tea

Or a hot beverage of some kind

[trim grotto]

Well, while we haven't personally seen him - the above concept art aside - we have interacted with Fenchurch before. He was providing us with information while we were researching and constructing Revision 0. He's one of Ikora's Hidden.

[ember storm]

Who’s to say it wasn’t 3 screebs on a keyboard

[slim girder]

Dredgen yor mentality.

[shy remnant]

bros hungry

[slow berry]

btw i love how the independent vex talk

they're so chill

[dapper moss]

wait what

we’ve heard them talk

[dim minnow]

the lore tab for the season pass ship got fixed recently

[dapper moss]

i gotta see this

[hard sigil]

oh I like how they don't use punctuation

"unless dot dot dot" I assume it's because whatever they're using to vocalise doesn't have the ability to indicate tone through punctuation. like a really barebones TTS that only reads letters

actually hold on

[dapper moss]

imagine if they have voice actors

and not like the fucking

text boxes from edge of fate

[hard sigil]

the fact they needed to investigate the concepts of causality, probability and chaos implies that they can't simulate without access to the network

did Maya accidentally nerf the vex

and I guess that it makes sense that investigating probability now that you can't see how every way something could possibly turn out would lead to discovering games of chance and gambling

[hard sigil]

I actually liked those but maybe that's just because we actually got to talk to people. I hope there's actual full NPCs with like. dialogue trees in Tharsis

[dapper moss]

i iked it too but i also really like voice actors 😭

knowing what we know about bungie's funding it isnt likely

[hard sigil]

unfortunate

[river surge]

Why is Rasputin story and lore so good

[hard sigil]

ok I'm thinking more on this and it's more likely because it's translating the raw data "thoughts" into recognisable speech. like taking raw binary and turning it into words

Morse code kinda

[slow berry]

i think its as simple as their words being pure, raw stream of consciousness

they're making a pause in that stream so they also vocalize that pause

its adorable

[ember storm]

I hope it’s old school tts

[dapper moss]

oh that would be hilarious

[slow berry]

banger

[fallow raft]

Hello lore discussion

Tell me about vog

[slow berry]

what do you wanna know about it

[fallow raft]

Anything

Idk anything

[slow berry]

its the hezen protective's project for directly manipulating time within the vault, actually affecting past and future rather than simply peering into different timelines

because of this, within the vault the vex can completely remove you from existence, an ontological death that makes it so you never have and will never have existed

the ritual of negation is this, when you get marked by the oracles they're preparing to have you removed from existence

before the guardian, a fireteam of kabr, pahanin and praedyth went into the vault but only pahanin returned, kabr died after drinking vex radiolaria and using his light to create the Aegis and praedyth was trapped by the vex within the vault

His name was Kabr. He wasn't my friend but I knew and respected him as a Guardian and a good man.

He fought the Vex alone. This destroyed him. In the time before he vanished he said things that I think should be remembered. These are some of them:

"In the Vault time frays and a needle moves through it. The needle is the will of Atheon. I do not know the name of the shape that comes after the needle.

No one can open the Vault alone. I opened the Vault. There was no one with me but I was not alone.

You will meet the Templar in a place that is a time before or after stars. The stars will move around you and mark you and sing to you. They will decide if you are real.

I drank of them. It tasted like the sea."

That is all I can remember.

• Pahanin

oh also there was at some point the belief that the fireteam of three that entered the vault was actually a fireteam of six, but half of the fireteam was succesfully removed from existence, and we only remember those who don't

pahanin then developed a fear of being alone and proceeded to create the super good advice, a sentient machine gun that wasn't very good

he was then murdered in a crucible match by dredgen yor i think?

[ember storm]

it was also powered by the black heart

[slow berry]

oh, that bit i didn't know

[trim grotto]

That's because the only explicit mention is easily missed and the implicit design is... Well, people default to Vex = no paracausal.

[fading basin]

when did sagira die again? i forget

[sick yew]

Season of the Hunt

Aka around the Beyond Light launch

And the year long buildup of Savathun