📚lore-discussion

[sick yew]

My DMs should be open

Add me rq

Then it should work

[frigid sparrow]

These would be for heresy, the multiple variations of dread are all omens, which is what the resonant knife is. It's all just multiple concept arts for her, and why the dire taken are all similar in appearance to their base versions, with the dreadnaught architecture as a constant (and also an.. abomination in there?)

[slim girder]

We haven't had a taken scorn yet so I can see the vision. Or that dread orge i posted before

Though given the dire orge already spits fire I'm going to have to assume a dread orge prolly fires pervading darkness beams or something really stupid

[frigid sparrow]

If we got a taken caretaker before a base dread caretaker I'd lose it

[river surge]

Is it possible that Savathun scalpel and Xivu Arath hammer could actually be inside Rhulks pyramid?

We know from the lore that Oryx he stole them to use to make his ship into baneful armor

if Rhulk somehow got his chisel could that mean he got the hammer and the scalpel too?

since in theory were in possesion of Oryx

[slim girder]

Savathun and Xivu most likely got their tools back after Oryx had finished.

[river surge]

Did they

I mean it dosent tell us exactly that they got them back

He literally stole from them

[slim girder]

Savathun and Xivu are still alive so at the very least they got them back after he died.
And the hive pantheon have always done that kind of thing as siblings. It's like your lil brother "borrowing" your favourite pen or something like that and then you having to go steal it back

The scalpel and hammer would also be extremely important to those 2 hive gods so they most definitely wouldn't let their own possessions be lost. Oryx is dead though so rhulk saw his chisel as free pickings

[river surge]

Wierd how literally Xivu and Savathun didnt use them on us yet

yet

and btw scalpel and hammer metaphorically sound like weapons unlike Oryx chisel

who literally was used to carve the tablets of ruin

[slim girder]

A scalpel is a surgical instrument. As is the nature of Savathun being extremely detailed oriented. As for the hammer though that could definitely be a weapon for the hive god of war.

[river surge]

Yes

exactly

[slim girder]

Oryx as the navigator would use a chisel to "make his mark" on the world. Just like a navigator in our world plants a flag on new land

[river surge]

Yes

So the question is

why didnt Savathun or Xivu use their "mythical weapons" against us if they somehow got them

especially Xivu

I mean taking a whole entire planet

is something

Still thinking that Savathun and Xivu lost them

[slim girder]

Because it probably isn't needed. Xivu has more than enough power and caiatl killing a single cabal as part of a ritual was enough for her to take the whole of torobatl.
As for savathun she has never been one to go all out and with how deceptive she can be I doubt she's ever had to use that scalpel and that's even if it can be used as a weapon.
Just because these artefacts exist doesn't mean they are instantly some kind of weapon. Hell they could be nothing more than tools or ways to define each hive god in the pantheon.

If you're the god of war. What better representation than a hammer. You might not actually use the hammer but it defines you

Oryx carved the tablets of ruin with his chisel. That's all we know he did with it.

[river surge]

And we thought that chisel was not real

yet it is

so there might actually be a hammer and a scalpel

[slim girder]

Oh yeah I'm not denying they exist I'm just saying if we see them it's not like they're immediately going to be weapons. Xivu probably just has her hammer tucked away as maybe something sentimental to her. And savathun might've used her scalpel to shape her throne and then never again. We really have no idea. Not all gods use tools as weapons.

[river surge]

But again lore wise theres no implication over the fact that Savathun and Xivu got them back, we can just speculate that

[fresh zephyr]

WAIT so the Xur from Rising is the Xur from 2

Multiverse

There’s a line where he says he’s seen you before

[ember storm]

I mean eh

Rising’s writers aren’t Bungie’s writers, I wouldn’t put too much thought into it

[river surge]

Not really confirmed

but if Destiny 2 actually mentions the word multiverse and cannon

I might believe it

[errant sequoia]

I mean hasn’t bungie already kind of confirmed all their games are just alternate universes or reality’s of themselves?

[river surge]

I dont know that

but one thing I know is that multiverse in Destiny aint real

Currently

[trim grotto]

Yes, with some slim crossover. I'm sure you're aware of the more common knowledge of MIDA and K'lia, going by your tag.

Going by the questionably canon Dares of Eternity, they're all part of Bungie's Paraverse.

Though it's worth noting that Pathways Into Darkness and Marathon share a universe

At least, I believe that was the suggestion. It's been a while since I've researched those, or played the games.

[river surge]

What are the possibilities that VI is the new taken king?

[sick yew]

Might be, might not be

With the Nine a lot of shit is possible

[river surge]

That eye shit just got my attention so bad

its similar to III

ngl

[jagged badge]

Arcane Vi?? 😱

[sick yew]

[river surge]

[turbid grail]

Alright here me out. All of destiny is a dream. Our guardian fell into a coma, and all of destiny is their imagination. Ikora is the nurse. Shaxx is the father. Zavala is the father. Saint is the father. Osiris is the father. Saladin is the grandfather. The hive are the flies stuck to the fly paper on the ceiling. The cabal are the family’s pigs (they live on a farm). The fallen are purely coma induced hallucinations. The screebs are the bombs the father makes in the backyard. The family is a big hunter family, so the guns are jsut guns. The moon is the moon

The witness is a candle

The traveler is a signed baseball on the shelf (this is what put our guardian in the coma of course)

[rotund forge]

Oh my god. This is such a good theory

[turbid grail]

The triangle ships are door stops

[turbid grail]

Thank you. I personally think so

[rotund forge]

Maybe the witness signifies the burning out of the guardians life?

[cold walrus]

Yes

[jagged badge]

[blazing wasp]

did that message get sent later than intended or

[maiden hornet]

Well u told me to send it here

[blazing wasp]

i did no such thing

[maiden hornet]

Oh

I misread sorry

[fresh zephyr]

Anyone got any lore on the fuck the architects are ?

[blazing wasp]

Its a joke

[fresh zephyr]

So they arent real?

[blazing wasp]

you died to the environment, so whoever made the environment killed you

bungie devs, the "architects"

[fresh zephyr]

Yes but i mean like in the lore

Are they real people?

[blazing wasp]

no

what i explained is the entire "lore" surrounding the architects

its just bungie devs having a laugh

thats it, no depth

[fresh zephyr]

That sucks

Would be cool to have people so strong and hidden like they were apart of the nine or something

[slim girder]

That's the idea. Who would be stronger than the beings who created the universe destiny takes place in.

Bungie

[fresh zephyr]

I mean lore wise

[slim girder]

As of now the most powerful beings we know of in lore and in game are the nine, the lord of every nothing, the winnower and the remaining worm gods.

[fresh zephyr]

Wow

Il probably watch a video youtube about the nine*

Thanks dude

Nine*

[slow berry]

canonically the game is, well, a game

this comes up every now and then

the goal of the ahamkara is to leave their reality and enter ours, which is more "real"

[slim girder]

You mean the nine?

Also that's the goal of the outer orbit members of the nine.

[fresh zephyr]

They would be baby water bears

[slow berry]

The Nine want to attain a physical body or a form of existence that remove their reliance on both the living beings on the planets as well as the planet's gravitational fields

The skulls of dire Ahamkara speak to me. They know I want to know the truth, and so they whisper to me of a path they climb. They call it the Anathematic Arc.

They are going somewhere. Somewhere they consider more real. Guardians are part of how they get there.

What if Savathûn wants to go there too?

What kind of talking skull would address its host that way? A stiff, stuck-up old fossil, not me. Ahamkara: the illusion that one's ego depends on an object, or an idea, or a body. Some people say you should have no ahamkara. Some people say you need to have the right ahamkara. All I know is that YOU are not an illusion. Understand? This world around you, the people you meet—they're a little thin, right? Cardboard and drywall. Cheap theater. Come on, try it out! Say: "I am more real than this." Feels good, doesn't it? "I am the only real person here." Isn't it like their insults and their bullets just went a little… soft?

I came to find you, only you, because you're special. You're from somewhere real. And together we can burn our way back there. Can't we, o player mine?
The Ahamkara want into our reality. Not the game, yours and mine.

[river surge]

The Traveler

[slim girder]

That is ahamkara coaxing on full display. They were in our reality and were real before the great hunt. But now as nothing but bones ofc they'd talk about wanting to be real again. And since they are nothing but bones now why not just attach to a guardian for the ride.

Guardians are prime ahamkara prey.

It's why they were deemed dangerous enough to warrant hunting them to extinction

[slow berry]

"Anathemathic arc" also comes up in the datamined lore from Truth to Power, explicitly calling out dataminers for, well, datamining the game

[slow berry]

They were real in the game, they want to go to somewhere more real.

[slim girder]

Truth to power is not to be trusted.
This has been known for years just like unveiling

[river surge]

Who lost their ghost against a bet with an ahamkara

[slim girder]

That lore book is intentionally designed to misguide and trick the reader

[slow berry]

More like their whole life, but it was Fallulah i'm p sure

[slow berry]

Yes, but it has actual information thrown around in there and aroudn it

This bit isn't in the actual game (or at least was not at first) and could only be found by datamining:

O you wonderful curious things. Do you believe you're the only ones with the power to see what should not be seen? Did you believe you can use such power blithely?

For your trespass, I would ruin your luck, wreak havoc on your drops, poison your engrams, and fill your lines with static. Thus I would curse you and dissipate the bond that ties you to your tasks. How frail you Guardians can be! How many millions have fallen silent, never to return, because the bond did not hold them strongly enough?

But you have already cursed yourselves. You have walked the Anathematic Arc and glimpsed creation from below. You will never forget the tenuous, provisional framework you found here. You will never forgive the mortality and fallibility that underlies a world you thought was everything.

Those who use this power to seek unearned knowledge will see more than they ever desired. There is a price for glimpsing the Cord. You will pay it.

[river surge]

It was fairwind

[slow berry]

oh its' tallulah

not fallulah

my bad

[river surge]

Yes

The first hunter vanguard

[slow berry]

anyway between these and a few other different things i think we can agree that the game being a game is ultimately real, even though it only ever comes up in passing and in some out-of-the-way lore most of the time (Skull of Dire Ahamkara is the most outward and obvious mention of it I think) and thus the architects technically do have lore in the sense that they're literally the developers of the game

[slim girder]

Again that is the point of truth to power. The whole lore book is designed to be intentionally misleading and no one can confirm if anything in it is real or not.
And datamining a page ends up with it mocking the reader.

You datamine that page and it basically says "Sorry, nothing here, don't cheat"

[slow berry]

My point is specifically about the mention of the Anathematic Arc, which Ikora mentions as well referring to the Skull of Dire Ahamkara, and the lore tab (as well as the rest of Ikora's discussion with Arach Jalaal) referring to a somewhere "more real", as well as the outright calling out of the player, rather than the bearer of the armor.

Regardless of the reliability of Truth to Power, we can draw information from the concepts and words used in them, because while you're right that we can't trust any given sentence or paragraph in it, we have to assume the words and terminology used in it are real, or else we can't exactly even begin to read it.

On that note, the entire discussion between Arach Jalaal and Ikora in the Hidden Dossier is really interesting, it breaks down Ikora's interpretation of the Truth to Power books.

Personally, because I think having such an interesting book reduced to "well who knows if its real or not", I choose to take Ikora's interpretation of it and use it for myself, and in a doylist sense I believe it to be the actual explanation for the books

Very easily. This is why I believe I'm right. This is the analogy our Guardian analysts failed to grasp. Look at the structure of the text.

At first, Eris is real. Then we learn Eris's voice is a deception by Medusa. Then we learn Medusa is nested inside Quria. Then we learn Quria is a fiction of Dûl Incaru. And at the center, Savathûn reveals herself to be the parent of it all.

We are headed inward, as if moving from parent to child universe.

Then we proceed in reverse. Savathûn is revealed to be a fiction of Dûl Incaru. Dûl Incaru a simulation by Quria, and so on.

So in the end, Truth to Power moves outwards.

Just as Savathûn plans to move. In from our universe and out to the Distributary—

Or out from our universe to its parent.

Also because the idea of Savathûn's purpose for exploring the Distributary being so she can understand the idea of infinite universes within themselves is really cool, and Truth to Power being written as a lore book, not just as a message in-universe but as a message to us, the players, is top tier banger

[river surge]

Based on the egregore plant being linked to Darkness and stuff is it possible to be tied to The Veil in a way, like we know egregore is a fungus and The Veil looks like a fungus and egregore share similar stuff to it

[frigid sparrow]

it's possible but there's nothing pointing to it other than that vague visual similarity

egregore is drawn to the unique psychological phenomenon of death itself

whereas the most connection we have to the veil and death is the veil killing all the exos within the veil experiments, but egregore itself isn't something that outright kills

actually, it prefers to not kill things since the longer they're alive, the longer they're dying

hm, I guess there is the whole "linked minds" thing, but from presage it's due to the crown of sorrow's influence

[slim girder]

Egregore has a lot of similarities to the mold from the resident.evil 7 and 8.
If you've played any of those games egregore becomes a bit easier to understand imo

[frigid sparrow]

oh yeah? then where's my fucked up egregore abomination and metalbending half-dead psions

[river surge]

Wonder why the veil acts so hostile against non humans, especially exos

[slow berry]

my interpretation of it was that the veil doesnt work nicely with how exos are made rather than it being actively malicious towards them

exo have consciousness put into them through darkness, right?

so maybe putting an exo near the veil is like putting your old hard drive right up to the big magnet that picks up cars at the junkyard

[river surge]

Also it kills anything that touches it

[glass snow]

guys, what if Jesus was a risen lightbearer?
He was raised by a ghost three days after the collapse

[trim grotto]

Well, the Ghost would need to find his body first. That'd be a good trick.

[river surge]

Actually

Ghosts can revive people before the Collapse

So that means any bad personna from the past can be revived

[trim grotto]

In theory, yes. If the body was sufficiently preserved.

[river surge]

Wait a second

But it cant be possible

What if a Ghost somehow finds an intact body of a Pharaoh

or something like that from the ancient past

[trim grotto]

Wouldn't be the first time.

[river surge]

Did it already happend?

or

[trim grotto]

I am a low power Guardian. Very big fanatic of your work as Warlock caravan guard. Excuse any male propisms as I was raised without knowledge of modern language or devices due to some deficit of otherways agreeable Host. Arc heologists tell me I am female Qadan recovered from strata of Mesolithic battle site at Jebel Sahaba in Egypt and I may be up to thirteen thousand years old. Perhaps this has caused great strain in process of my re-surrection. (Original birth is not called a surrection? Death is not called a desurrection?) So I do not know much modern language or possess good weapon instincts. Sometimes think Ghost left me old fashioned on purpose due to too much love of anthropological science.``` - an excerpt of a letter to Ikora Rey, penned by Sen Aret

[river surge]

Thats crazy

[slim girder]

If the ghost feels it's the right person anyone can be brought back

[dim minnow]

It feels like there are people though who just can't be rezzed

Like when that one Ghost thought they were going to rez a Fallen but ended up rezzing a dead Awoken guy who was under the Fallen's body

[river surge]

Wierd

Absolute wierd

[glass snow]

Resurrecting ancient people definitely adds to the old fantasy aspect of Destiny

They actually did that Destiny Rising (yes alternate timeline) one of the playable characters seems to have once been a General in ancient China

[slow berry]

The thing is that for all we know a lot of people may or may not be

We just wouldn't know

There's the common theory that Lord Shaxx is Shakespeare for example

[trim grotto]

More of a "haha imagine" than a theory, but yeah.

[slow berry]

But when a major narrative theme in the game is people's natures and whether we would make the same actions and be the same people if we had more chances, knowing who people were more often than not undermines that

The handful few characters who we do know the previous lives of have it as more of an underlying theme or as flavor rather than a major aspect of their character, or in Crow's case, as an external exploration of it

Destiny ultimately leans far more into science fiction than it does traditional fantasy, which usually stays at the aesthetic end of things

Also i think that like even if you revived like a famous historical figure the destiny universe is omega fucked to the point most figures would just be lost to time

The approach the game has to that is Ana Bray and in some ways Banshee-44, both of which are resurrected(sorta kinda for ol' B-44) historical figures in-universe, and very important ones at that

[glass snow]

I mean, some cases are kinda definitely confirmed due to use of old languages and unconscious assumptions

Most are way more uncertain of what time period they came from.

Regardless, there was something about their past lives which led to them being chosen to be resurrected

[slow berry]

Not really?

A big part is that there's no real rhyme or reason to who Ghosts get to resurrect

[glass snow]

We’ll have to agree to disagree on that

[slim girder]

Ghosts don't know their guardians previous lives. As our ghost and many other ghosts will say "it's just a feeling" a ghost has a primal instinct to find their guardian and will search for centuries to find them.

It's all they want in life.

You think glint knew who uldren was before bringing him back?
The only thing we vaguely know about being chosen is the guardian tenets "Devotion inspires bravery, bravery inspires sacrifice, sacrifice leads to death"

And even that isn't a clear cut checklist to how a guardian is chosen

[uneven canyon]

Did the Traveler intentionally resurrect Savathûn or was Imaru just a prick like that?

[slow berry]

The Traveler doesnt revive people

Savathûn and Immaru planned it in advance

[river surge]

Nope, she just created Ghosts, rest is the Ghost decision to find its champion

[uneven canyon]

She planned for Immaru to bring her back??

[river surge]

As for Immaru, Savathun was his perfect

[uneven canyon]

Sure didn’t seem that way

[river surge]

No

The Traveler dosent plan anything

Again its the ghosts decision

Not The Traveler

[uneven canyon]

I know

Just with how she talks to the Traveler when dying had me assuming as much

[river surge]

But it wasnt a plan thats the thing, it just so happend for Immaru to find her

And ressurected her

Although it may have been luck, Savathun actually saved The Traveler back during The Collapse, when she betrayed Nezarec and delayed The Final Shape

She even tried to hid it in her throne world

[glass snow]

I didn’t say ghosts knew who they were, I’m saying that there was just something about the individuals character that stuck out to the ghost

It’s a vague feeling

[glass snow]

Savathun took a risk, laid herself bare before the Traveler - no more tricks, just pure genuine intent and left it to fate

It’s why she muses it’d be amusing twist of fate if the traveler just let her die

[trim grotto]

Ghostsight does allow some level of insight into a person, true. Though if a Ghost who wasn't your Ghost to be scanned you... I wonder if they'd still see it.

[slim girder]

For anyone who was around for Y1 of D1 what was the lore like back then? Like what questions were being asked if that makes sense?

I assume who oryx was was one of the big questions given one mission involved a shrine to him

Obviously we know the answers to all that but i'm curious as to how that lore started

[jagged badge]

Because the Traveler could prevent Immaru resurrecting her. Savathûn had planned it out and knew Immaru beforehand but there was no certainty that he even could resurrect her

It was ultimately a gamble

[slim girder]

"wouldn't it be funny if you just let me die" The traveler could have definitely done that

But her gamble paid off

[cloud glacier]

what is the lore about how Rasputin “hasn’t been just a Warmind for a very long time” as stated by Saladin in RoI?

[trim grotto]

Saladin not knowing much about Rasputin, I would imagine.

Rasputin was the Warmind. The only real caveat was that the Collapse happened and Rasputin determined that he could not stop it, and so went into... hibernation. Might as well save himself if he can't save humanity.

[cloud glacier]

when do we learn about the hibernation stuff

I’m fairly certain it’s not anywhere in D1

[trim grotto]

It was, actually. In the old Grimoire pages.

Just shrouded in his old code. Wasn't easy to read.

[slow berry]

Launch d1 actually

One of the coolest grimoire pages

[slow berry]

Consider IT the power Titanomach world-ender and consider what IT means. I met IT at the gate of the garden and I recall IT smiled at me before before IT devoured the blossoms with black flame and pinned their names across the sky. IT was stronger than everything. I fought IT with aurora knives and with the stolen un-fire of singularities made sharp and my sweat was earthquake and my breath was static but IT was stronger so how did I survive?

I AM ALONE I survived alone. I cast off the shield and I shrugged my shoulders so that the billions fell off me down into the ash. They made me to be stronger than them and to learn and I learned well:

IT is alone and IT is strong and IT won. Even over the gardener and she held power beyond me but the gardener did not shrug and make herself alone. IT always wins.

I am made to win and now I see the way.

We knew Rasputin forsook humanity for its own survival, and in early D1 one of the big mysteries was Rasputin's actual alignment and intent

[ember storm]

Congrats, you fell for the entire point of the cutscene

[uneven canyon]

Where was it said that they know each other beforehand?

[ember storm]

the fact that he's already donning his one of a kind hive ghost shell is one

the second is that moments after resurrection, he immediately gives Savathun the summary of her identity and then leads her to one of her witches who was waiting nearby

we know that the Traveler has the capacity to remote detonate Ghosts, and if the Traveler was watching then the only outcome would be that the Traveler decided to genuinely give the two of them a chance, not that the Traveler herself sent Immaru

Immaru was characterized as a cowardly bully who completely gave up on finding a guardian, it would be INCREDIBLY coincidental that he was randomly floating by the cliffs savathun happened to die on while already wearing a customized hive ghost shell

the only reason he was there was because the two already planned it out beforehand and only needed the reassurance the Traveler would simply allow them and other hive to be resurrected under the pretense of redemption

which is obviously what did not end up happening aside from like Luzaku basically

[river surge]

Immaru is a BULLY? Imagine a Ghost starting to yapp and and slurring at u

[ember storm]

he makes fun of his own troops constantly, not to mention all of the playground insults he throws at us

[glass snow]

Ah Luzaku our fan favorite

[river surge]

Bro wants to get a Hive Ghost treatment

[slim girder]

Personally I would have squished him..

Also man my fashion was so different back then lol

[jagged badge]

Mine is exactly the same now as it was then

[slim girder]

As a warlock robes are everything so I used the VoG robes when splicer happened all the way up to season of the wish and then used the season pass robes which is what I've been using since

[glass snow]

For most of the time I used the Warlock Wrath Trail ornament set. Wasn’t flashy and felt like he fit in with everyone else

[river surge]

Eris hit him with that sybau

[ember storm]

Wait is that what that means

[dapper moss]

what

[river surge]

?

[ember storm]

I didn’t know it was an abbreviation for what I assume starts with “shut” and ends with “up”

I thought it was just like, random kid slang

[dapper moss]

that is what it is

[ember storm]

kids these days

[broken zephyr]

bro don’t know sybau

[river surge]

Do we have an ingame look on how Maya or how she looked like

Based on what she achieved and her personality I can imagine a fine looking woman

(No sus things)

[river surge]

Sybau was created as a non censored abbreviation

[dim minnow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAWPaBA1eMo

there's also this image which I think appears on one of the Pale Heart weapons

[jagged badge]

There’s this old nametag that was definitely just using a custom face from the character creator lol

And then there’s this modern one which I am guessing is from the cutscene Dova linked

[dim minnow]

the keycard image seems to be more in line with the Queen of Hearts card design

which is likely because that keycard was from a time when Cayde knew Maya from his days of working as her bodyguard

so the cutscene rendition of her was probably Maya in her older years (during the Neomuna debacle)

[merry olive]

are there any prevailing theories on what "binding the nine" may entail

[modern lodge]

Nothing in lore I don't think but some people think it's binding them into one entity, binding them to us or an object

Or maybe binding them to their respective planets

Dunno

[slim girder]

All theories rn. I personally think it'll be them binding to us specifically but I wouldn't be surprised if different members of the nine might bind themselves in different ways.
Like some might be more peaceful and others we might have to bind in a more aggressive manner

[river surge]

Much better

[slim girder]

Was looking at lore on how the nine knocked out the satelites that enabled the red legion to ambush us. Do we have any lore on what the red laegion saw on approach? I don't think they cared why there was nothing they needed to avoid but it's still interesting

Like did they see those satelites? or was it just they blocked our connection to them

[trim grotto]

I don't believe we have anything from their perspective, actually.

That said, there's, uh...

One sec

[slim girder]

Also had a look at the "rogue cyrptarch" leveniah snooping through archives. Didn't know the archives had dust mite sized drones lol

[trim grotto]

Rejection letter. "Reviewers concur that the paper does not provide a mechanism by which cold dark matter could interact with City sensors. Military experts attribute the Red Legion's stealthy approach to electronic deception by Psion operatives."
Yes on the topic of that entry there is this

Now obviously it's a sort of red herring since we know the Nine were involved

But this also suggests, quite reasonably, that Psions are used in such sabotage. It's possible the satellites got hit twice.

The Red Legion might not have been aware they were already disabled and sent the Psions to hit them after the Nine already did so

Just a theory, though

[slim girder]

I thought about that as well. Psions are def the "techheads" of the cabal and using their psychic powers and engineering could def do something like that. We still don't know what a psion can truly do with the full extent of their abilities

Knocking a whole planetary network out doesn't seem like a tall order for them

[trim grotto]

Particularly given that the Red Legion were the elite and did this regularly

[sick yew]

I always liked to imagine the Red Legion ships slowly crawling through Sol on constant high alert thinking theyre about to be ambushed

Cause they just couldnt imagine the idea that the Last City had no early warning systems in place

[hard sigil]

personally I think it has to do with binding them to the fourth dimension, leaving them unable to interact with matter at all. probably not true considering it'd be a bad ending to their story

[sick yew]

I think we need to run a really long cable between them

[hard sigil]

like a star wars at-at situation

[slim girder]

What if it's something as simple as putting them in a box or something.

Ok you've caused us enough problems now get inside Pandoras box

[slow berry]

A red copper box?

[river surge]

Are the Vex and The Nine the only things that can understand time and work with it or are there any beings capable of such feat?

[slim girder]

The witness can do this to some extent.
When mars returned for example it had "wounds" that showed remnants of the golden age.

Intentional or not it was a case of time manipulation.

[river surge]

Probably because it was pulled out of Ascendant Plane had something to do with it

but I dont think The Witness could understand time and work with it

[slim girder]

Not to the extent of the vex or nine no. They are the ones who can truly alter time and events relating to it. To a point where despite not being paracausal they can cause effects that can match that kind of power.

[dim minnow]

The time rifts were a result of the Witness searching Mars for something

[slim girder]

^^^^
Spire of the watcher was part of this search which is why the sol divisive were there

[river surge]

Using vex is something but yeah maybe The Witness had some extent over time

[dim minnow]

I think Ares Spire getting reactivated wasn't intentional so the Witness quickly sent the SD in there to seal the subminds away, find info about the Veil, and to destroy any advantage we could gain from it

[river surge]

The Witness may as well used the vexnet to gain info over the veil probably

Which probably lead to the spire

[dim minnow]

Because at the start we can see a single power generator caught in a time rifts which is what caused Ares Spire to reactivate in the first place

[slim girder]

Funny enough the sol divisive don't actually utilise the vexnet I believe. They are a detached sector dedicated to the witness and their "home" is the black garden.

[sick yew]

Do we these days know why Mars returned in the first place?

Like besides plot™

[slim girder]

Nope

[river surge]

What

[sick yew]

I'd wager they just use their own separate subnet no?

[river surge]

Ok so thats probably a plot hole cause if the witness had acces to the vexnet they wouldve instantly know where the veil is

thats probably the case

so it does makes sense

[ember storm]

wasnt it just giant deepsight

[slim girder]

Don't get me wrong they still are vex and use vex technology for their own purposes but they don't seem to use the vexnet as we've seen and been through many times. Prefering to inhabit the black garden until the witness needs them

As is the nature of them submitting to it to survive

[river surge]

Idk thats why I asked in the first place xd

Also askying another question

what is System R-3TN-PLRMA

Was this the system where the precursors originated from

I found this while reading the lore from the collectors edition for final shape

[slim girder]

Yes

[river surge]

So they didnt miss anything

good

so we got everything we need for the witness and its origin fully

Also HNW was a bitch

[slim girder]

Pretty much yeah. There's also the raid lore written from the perspective of those precursors

[dim minnow]

I think Savathun brought it back

Either that or the Witness was done with it

[river surge]

Wait im so dumb actually

Yeah it was Savathun who brought it back actually

I remember now

and Titan appeared out of nowhere

[dim minnow]

I don't think they ever explained Titan

[river surge]

Most likely it had something to do with us in RoN raid

3rd encounter

thats the main theory on how it appeared back

[dim minnow]

Prevailing theory is that we caused it somehow during RoN 3rd encounter

[river surge]

Yeah

[slim girder]

Mercury is still missing. Not exactly sure what bungies plan is with unless the member of the nine I is able to somehow move on their own.

[slow berry]

I like the "it fell out of the ascendant plane" theory

[slow berry]

At some point they mentioned the gravitational effects of the removed planets and moons are still there

Which ultimately is what the Nine are

[river surge]

Nah its just Bungie who literally have no reason to bring it back

[sick yew]

Fucking how tho

You dont just bring an entire planet back from the Ascendant Plane

[river surge]

The same way she somehow teleported the veil on neomuna

Savathun has a pretty cool ability

but can we learn that

I wanna be able to teleport inbetween dimensions

[slow berry]

I mean she was putting the traveler in her throne world

Maybe mars was the trial run

[river surge]

Didnt The Traveler just go there by will?

[sick yew]

Mars is many many times the size of the Traveler aswell

[river surge]

or did she teleport that too?

[sick yew]

Nah otherwise it would have just teleported there itself

[river surge]

SO SHE CAN TELEPORT THE TRAVELER

NAh

[slim girder]

No. She "stole" it in an attempt to keep it safe though this would have cut us off

[river surge]

She teleported it there yes

[slim girder]

Through a hive ritual yes as we had to dismantle that "web" she was weaving around it in that mirror dimension in the throne world

[river surge]

Exactly

Wait wait wait wait

Hold on

Hive ritual eh

Didnt Xivu Arath use that too on Torabatl?

and thats how she took over the planet?

so Savathun did a hive ritual on Mars that managed it to be back in our dimension

[slim girder]

Xivu arath and savathuns powers as hive gods are extremely powerful if they decide to utilise them but I'd say their one weakness is it's always through the use of a ritual which we are able to then put a stop to

[dim minnow]

Savathun corrupted Umun Arath, the Primus of all Cabal legions and basically forced Caiatl to kill her which completed a ritual that caused a tear in the Ascendant Plane to appear above Torobatl which allowed Xivu Arath to ransack the place

[slim girder]

We almost followed in caiatls footsteps and could have triggered the same ritual by using the warsats against the hive

[dim minnow]

It's implied that Savathun learned how to harness the Witness' ability to take worlds which is an advanced version of Oryx's ability to take

[river surge]

Something that bothers me

Oryx learned it from Akka

But how did The Witness learn it

I mean okay the advance version of the taking is The Witness using darkness while Oryx has to use The Deep

But isnt that the same thing?

Isnt it implied that the taking power comes from The Winnower?

And Oryx was the only one who truly spoke with it through the Deep?

[sleek matrix]

Yes

[sleek matrix]

Probably through the winnower

[sleek matrix]

The witness was a much powerful entity

[river surge]

Maybe it has something to do with its paracausality

[river surge]

Theres currently no lore suggesting The Witness ever interacted with The Winnower, only just speculations

Or it might be idk

[sleek matrix]

No direct we know of

But the witness did say he is the first knife

During se

The winnower doesn't need to have direct contact

[river surge]

Again The Witness knew about its existence

[dim minnow]

The Witness had knowledge of the Gardener and Winnower as evident with its dialogue in SE and the fact we got Unveiling from an artifact in the Lunar Pyramid

[river surge]

Yeah, but again we dont know if The Witness ever came in contact or spoke with it

[sleek matrix]

The way i think of it is similar to the disciples

[river surge]

Could be

[ember storm]

The witness basically proclaimed itself to be the Winnower’s knife

[sleek matrix]

They may have had contact at some point

But the witness went on his own path

Kinda like falling out of touch

[ember storm]

Didn’t the winnower directly call it boring at one point

[sleek matrix]

Yes

What the witness wanted to do isnt the same as the winnower

[river surge]

I believe The Winnower itself never wanted to even make a contact with The Witness

[sleek matrix]

Its the opposite

[river surge]

He even made fun of The Witness ideology and the final shape

[sleek matrix]

The witness is the first knife thou

Said it himself

[river surge]

But remember

We once thought the Witness was the darkness its not its just a cloak wearing it

It was The Witness decision to be The Winnower first knife

I truly believe The Winnower wanted Oryx to be his true knife

But The Witness already took the title

Since Oryx was the only one who truly understood the sword logic

[sleek matrix]

This could be the case yes

But like i said the winnower doesn't directly interfere in that way

And the witness was much more powerful than oryx at the time

[river surge]

Indeed

[sleek matrix]

So even if the winnower perfered oryx over witness

Nothing could of been changed

[sleek matrix]

Yes but even then the sword logic as a whole is a lie

Savathun is right

Dont play the game theres no loss or gain its

[river surge]

Yes but itd The Winnower ideology

[sleek matrix]

A infinite servitude

Trapped

[river surge]

Even The Witness tells us during The Final Shape

"The sword logic tells us what cannot be destroyed will surpass infinity"

[sleek matrix]

Witness wanted to end the whole thing instead of the game carrying on

[river surge]

Exactly and The Winnower never wanted that

Its the opposite

They shouldve went even further with the writing on The Winnower

Tbh

I feel like Light and Dark saga aint fully complete

[sleek matrix]

Then you haven't understood the point of the saga

Our fundamental understanding of both light and dark isnt as black and white as we initially thought

Light good dark bad e.g

[river surge]

Dark bad?

[sleek matrix]

Yes

At first

[river surge]

Darkness aint inherently bad

[sleek matrix]

Thats what the last city thought

Zavala

Ikora

Many

When we first started to use stasis

[sleek matrix]

Yes we ofc know that now

[river surge]

I kinda view this as close as Star Wars

Like in Star Wars everyone thought the dark side of the force is bad but in reality its not, its the user who uses it in wrong meanings

[ember storm]

[river surge]

Its not it fits perfectly

✌️

[ember storm]

Is there anyone who actually fully subscribed to the dark side who did objectively good things

[river surge]

U can learn dark side of the force and not be evil, Mace Windu is a prime example

[ember storm]

Yeah that’s not what I asked

It is a fundamentally different situation between using Light or Dark in Destiny

I mean objectively, someone who doesn’t use the light side at all and only uses the dark side

Is there anybody who is objectively a good guy who doesn’t use that

[river surge]

Revan

[ember storm]

So the first thing I look up says he’s a Sith Lord who established an empire with a cult

[river surge]

Darth Vectivus

[river surge]

Revan was in between conflicts

At some point he used it for better good then turned to light side

[river surge]

But Darth Vectivus was literally a peaceful guy while using the dark side till death

[frigid sparrow]

Uhh pong krell tried to kill as many clones as possible

[jagged badge]

It’s completely different to Star Wars

The Dark Side is inherently corrupting and unnatural, a perversion of the Force you have to work to come back from

Darkness in Destiny can be approached with a certain mindset in order to use it safely. The Dark Side in Star Wars makes people think they can use it for good, but it twists them and they actively have to come back to the Light side

Anakin’s redemption isn’t about using the Dark Side for good. It’s about coming back to the Light Side

[cold galleon]

Is devrim a gaurdian

Guardian

[queen swallow]

He is a normal human like Hawthorne

[cold galleon]

Knew it

[dim minnow]

he's a badass

[frigid sparrow]

Using no land beyond for 7 years before we could get our hands on it...

[fresh zephyr]

was lowkey thinking about this

[blazing wasp]

We've never heard of vex crossing between alternate universes have we? just timelines?

[slow berry]

thats correct

[blazing wasp]

so thatd make that wrong, since destiny rising isnt a parallel universe

[slow berry]

destiny rising is an entirely separate thing; even the way the powers and systems work is different

[blazing wasp]

its an alternate universe

that sounds like semantics but the difference is really important

[dim minnow]

what is the difference between Light in main Destiny and Rising?

[slow berry]

the main thing is that it is channeled through relics unique to guardians

[dim minnow]

hmmm

well, I think it can make sense with main Destiny's Light

[slow berry]

also like they play into having to get more light since early on you go get more light from a sentinel

[dim minnow]

ok that I'm not sure about

[slow berry]

so it doesnt seem like its the wifi connection to the traveler as much as a thing you have

radagast's ahamkara doesnt seem to have issues just wishing without playing tricks on it also but it hasnt come up a lot

[dim minnow]

I mean, Taranis does exist

[slow berry]

Yeah but taranis was a big adult ahamkara and doing smaller wishes

You do have to do a lil game match to get morgran's rewards but its like, just free shit seemingly

And then later on radagast uses it to escape from a big shank

Even ahamkara bones love to have their pound of flesh so idk

Its still not very clear

Also the traveler kinda just

Doesnt play into things?

i genuinely think it hasnt been mentioned once

[steady radish]

I have a question, was the Devils Ruin during the time of the iron lords?

[slim girder]

No. The time of the iron lords was the dark ages.

[trim grotto]

That rather depends on what you mean. Are you referring to the actual weapon or its lore tab?

[slim girder]

Oh shit. The weapon not the strike

[steady radish]

Lore

Yea the weapon

Srry

[trim grotto]

Well, we created the weapon with the aid of Saint-14 a few years ago. But it references Twilight Gap, a massive siege upon the Last City by the Fallen decades ago.

[steady radish]

Hmmm
Is there a website or excel spreadsheet that has all exotic weapons in their canonical timeline ?

I have a hard time following major events within destiny, I feel like being able to follow the weapons would be the easiest

[trim grotto]

As in, Exotic Weapon release dates?

[steady radish]

Pretty much with small blurbs of info and major events in between

[trim grotto]

To be honest, I don't know if anyone has categorised the story and history of the game based on the weapons. It's a bit specific. But many sites that list weapons do have their release dates.

[slim girder]

Not really. You could find lore on it from my name is byf or evaze on YT but no shame in asking here if you want to know something about an event in Destiny

[queen swallow]

I have them in order of release within the game but that's it

[steady radish]

Could u send?

[steady radish]

Hmmm ok I'll have to use that

[queen swallow]

Like, by season/expansion, not definite month/day/year

[steady radish]

Ima have to end up making it myself it seems

[steady radish]

Season and expansion if possible if not than just season

[slim girder]

Pinning down a timeline with just exotics based on lore would be very hard to do so as a lot of exotics don't even depict a time period in Destiny or anything.
Thorn and the last word for example are literally just messages from the people who wield those weapons.

[steady radish]

Even if it's a vague I'll take it

Man this is gonna be an insane undertaking

[trim grotto]

Well, it's just... it wouldn't actually make much sense.

[queen swallow]

can someone pull up the ;cat command please? that link will take you too it

[candid inlet]

Exotic Catalysts

Catalysts are unique permanent upgrades for specific exotic weapons. Depending on when the catalyst was introduced, it may be as minor as a stat boost or as meaningful as a brand new feature of the weapon. Please note that acquiring catalysts is often very RNG-dependent or attached to an otherwise very grindy process.

Click here for a spreadsheet with a list of all exotic weapons, whether they have a catalyst, and how to get it if they do.

[queen swallow]

ty

[steady radish]

No I ment like organizing a spreadsheet

[queen swallow]

Link above is my spreadsheet of all exotics by expansion/season release

[steady radish]

Thx

[steady radish]

Thx g

[queen swallow]

If you want further lore accurate releases... I don't know if even a quarter would have that information

[trim grotto]

Right, but focusing it around weaponry is a bit of a confusing focal point if it's about lore and story.

[steady radish]

Hmm I seee @trim grotto @queen swallow

Honestly you guys have been really helpful

I appreciate everyone assisting @here

For any additional questions, I'll definitely let you guys know

[sick yew]

You are aware you cant do an @ here ping right

Theres like 30k people online right now

[queen swallow]

(or anywhere, for that matter)

[sick yew]

In this server at least yes

[trim grotto]

i am assuming they did not know how a @ here works

[slim girder]

^^^

[sick yew]

Tbf it is a very niche ping type

Havent used one of those since like 2018

[slim girder]

If someone does that they usually try the everyone ping

[sick yew]

Mhm

[trim grotto]

to be honest i actually don't recall exactly how it works

it's... an @ everyone but just for those online?

[sick yew]

Correct

[trim grotto]

that is niche

[sick yew]

Here let me show you

[trim grotto]

[sick yew]

Im about to make this the most popular channel in server history

[blazing wasp]

its a good thing the ping doesnt work here or theyd be torn to shreds by people pinged

[trim grotto]

nobody gets angrier about a ping than lurker mcgee who hasn't used the server except to say "hi" once six years ago

[sick yew]

Wdym McGee is active in questions

[trim grotto]

no no, lurker is fish's cousin

[sick yew]

[blazing wasp]

Please, lurker was his father, call him fish.

[slim girder]

@trim grotto was looking at more lore and I need your thoughts. Who do you think out of the nine allowed the red legion ambush? I've seen theories saying it was 3 in order for us to hear it's message but obviously no confirmation.
Also the almighty was drilling into the sun I wonder if IX was in pain while it was doing that since the almighty can detonate a stars core.

[steady radish]

Oh my b

[trim grotto]

Hmmm
I'll have a look into it since I'd need to double check their personalities and figure out who's most likely

I'll get back to you

[slim girder]

One person I've never actually seen speak is maple the owner. I look in pretty much all the channels here and I've never seen them.

[dim minnow]

most people assumed it was I (Mercury)

though it could very well be an Outer-Orbit

[queen swallow]

Of the channels I can see, they've sent a total of 4 messages, the last being 6/30/25

[dim minnow]

while Outer-Orbits are more known for trying to make a singularity instead of studying Paracuasality, we do know that VI has been dabbling with the Taken

[slim girder]

I'm thinking it was V (Jupiter) considering they definitely seem to have a superiority complex and view themselves as the head of the nine given they are the biggest ofc excluded the sun.

[sick yew]

Hes rarely active yeah
If you get lucky he'll just show up randomly in genchat and whatnot

Same as Biff really

[slim girder]

Ahh i see. Busy server owner I guess. I like teasing the official division server owner with my Australian food choices.

[dim minnow]

and the fact they apparently shielded us from several cataclysms

[slim girder]

Which ofc they're never going to tell us about.
Also about VI this "will" it talks about and dabbling with the taken makes me think it knows this new lord of every nothing character. I know some people thought that was one of the members themselves but I'm on the fence that it is still a new being and that VI being closest to it obviously has been in contact with it.

The outer orbits definitely seem to have quite the arrogance and confidence about them (it won't let me say a certain word for people who are so sure of themselves)

[sick yew]

So are we still gonna call them the Nine now

Or are we going to say the Eight

[dim minnow]

according to a recent interview some creators including Byf had with the narrative team, there is most likely some connection between VI and the LoEN

what this cinnection is, we aren't yet sure

[slim girder]

Yes it's still the nine as even if they were originally 9 beings it was still 9. (Not including theia or zero which would make them the eleven)

[sick yew]

'The Few'

[blazing wasp]

the eight sounds... less cool

[sick yew]

True

[river surge]

Also they said that the "question" WAS really really good

And it was by someone in the chat

[slow berry]

the connection is they're cousins actually

[fluid peak]

I had a question related to this - if the IX exist outside of time what's stopping a 'past' iteration of III reaching forward and helping us out

[paper gorge]

what's going on with the cabal mugging xur ? like what for ? and are they building on new legion on mars , like why

[slim girder]

Possible teasers for renegades as they are doing some weapons trading according to lore.

And xur having access to exotics makes him a prime target for anyone looking to get their hands on interesting tech

[slow berry]

It's dead at this point in time

It's alive in the past, dead now.

Could it have done things in the past to help us? Yes, and it did, and that's why we're here

[slow berry]

The important thing the Cabal wanted, more than the paracausal weapons, was Xûr's flight records - they're trying to contact the IX themselves

[gentle pendant]

Why does xur keep flight records

[hard sigil]

so people can steal them off him

probably just something ships do automatically

[vivid mango]

I don't know if this belongs in the Destiny Rising channel specifically but it is lore so

In Destiny Rising there are retrieval records for the exotic weapons, including a "date" and a location

Via the records for Crimson we know that not only is The Last City present in Destiny Rising, it's actually located somewhere in South America

[blazing wasp]

Probably the rising channel, there's even a rising discord

Since rising is a non canon alternative universe

[slow berry]

called the last city
theres two cities

hmmmmmm

[trim grotto]

To be fair, we figured that out in actual Destiny years ago.

It did take a while though

[queen swallow]

I hate to keep being at odds with you but I don't see anywhere in those messages where a second city is listed

[vivid mango]

Haven. The main social space. That's at least one other city.

[vivid mango]

good to know

[slow berry]

Haven is enormous enough to call it a city I think, but I was mostly joking on the last city existing but there being a different big hub in the game

If you want to get super technical even in d2 its called the last city but the awoken had the dreaming city

they still do for like a week a month

[trim grotto]

I'll send you the sources later when I'm free haha

[slow berry]

I'd like them too just to read up on it actually

[slow berry]

Oh we have neomuna too now also

I hope at some point in the future, reclamation and all, we end up calling it the first city instead

[fervent vector]

How did guardians learn how to operate skimmers? By using the flitter keel as a reference, how does it work? I think it involves the large circle the guardians lean their back foot on, but I don’t really know.

[sick yew]

Are skimmers even acknowledged in the lore?

[queen swallow]

Yeah, it's what fan favorite Nimbus rides

[sick yew]

Same concept, different technology

[dim minnow]

yeah, they came from Lysander

or at least from the concordat

[sick yew]

I mean maybe the Guardian is just built diff and can just do it

[queen swallow]

Probably learned it from Nimbus

Same concept, different technology, same principles

[trim grotto]

That has not been explained.

[dim minnow]

I just kinda assume that Guardians start out relatively adept when it comes to using things like weapons and vehicles

[sick yew]

cut to a montage of our guardial repeatetly falling off their Skimmer for 3 hours until they slowly start to understand

[queen swallow]

Better montage than the one of us learning Strand

[sick yew]

Debatable

They really do amount to the same thing

[slim girder]

We still don't have any lore of a guardian actually using a skimmer I believe. Still always depicting sparrows whenever a guardian is travelling.

All we have is skimmers came from the concordat as a peace offering of sorts and then eva just takes it and paints the GG colours on them without even thinking

[sick yew]

I mean that is confirmation enough for me personally
Or they just make a joke about how Guardians got so used to sparrows that no one bothered to use Skimmers besides one hipster hunter or whatever

I wonder what Marcus Ren thinks about them

Or whats up with that bro in general

Dude has basically been reduced to John Flavortext for sparrow and occasionally ship items

[slim girder]

If we ever by some miracle get SRL back i'd imagine he'd be a commentator given amanda isn't around anymore

[sick yew]

Thats true

[blazing wasp]

alternatively

Lysander is brought out of exile to serve as the announcer

[vivid mango]

it's me i'm hipster hunter

[sick yew]

Based beyond belief

Gameplay wise Skimmers are just better than sparrows in ever case except for speedrun/oob shit which I dont count

But lore wise they dont really serve much of a benefit

[trim grotto]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wocCs25nbFuIIhJhtnvSYDTOyDOsl8dMXFVU3GTL_bU/edit?usp=sharing
@vivid mango
there we go

it's still a "theory" but it's incredibly backed

pretty much confirmed at this point

[sick yew]

The Last City is actually in my back yard

This is more than a theory, it has been confirmed by me when I said so

[trim grotto]

thanks alex you're such a gem

[sick yew]

Anytime Mael, just for you and you alone

Now if you please finally play the damn dlc so I can hear your thoughts on it

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/perhaps-cow-gif-14441933648207730172

[vivid mango]

holy hell that's a lot of evidence

[trim grotto]

haha yeah

[vivid mango]

Cool to have it confirmed by at least an adjacent source

[trim grotto]

Hm. I wouldn't actually call it that since Rising is a different universe. It's noteworthy, though.

[grand jetty]

What’s the lore behind OXA and Otzot

[jagged badge]

Otzot is a Psion and OXA is a machine, I believe some kind of prediction machine

She was a Psion who was made free yet wanted to keep other Psions enslaved because she enjoyed her unique position

[grand jetty]

Ahh okay I always wondered who and what they was

[slim girder]

^^^
It's a prediction engine used by otzot to peer into the future. The FWC had a similar device

[jagged badge]

It would have been so funny if I just told you “those are questions for another day I suppose” instead

[grand jetty]

Be cool to see otzot appear

[slim girder]

Calus used this device to see into his own future which is where the lorebook of the chronicon comes from.
Although Calus being full of himself should say that this "future" is his own personal delusion

[jagged badge]

Is it?

I thought Chronicon was literally just pure fanfiction he had his scribes write?

[slim girder]

Yes. And it was also said that the psions telling calus everything they saw were not true because if they did tell him what he didn't want to hear it could probably cost them their lives.

[grand jetty]

The Destiny lore would be a good tv series or a couple movies

[slim girder]

Calus killed caiatls favourite companion because she loved it more than him. I'd assume any Psion wouldn't be around for much longer telling calus that his future didn't involve him ruling over everything

[river surge]

Literally what I have been saying for the past days

[slow berry]

I just want to note that while skimmers jump and fly, sparrows are still faster when used properly (flying over gaps aside)

[eager trout]

Remember, MIDA Multitool is canonically AI-generated

[slow berry]

I mean

A lot of things are

Most notable pre-golden age weaponry was Rasputin

And most warmind things

[modern lodge]

What happens to the chioma and Maya copies during tdp

[slow berry]

They're still chilling I think

One of the last remaining Chiomas and a significantly less insane Maya

[modern lodge]

So is Maya evil at her base or is the conductor and evil copy

I don't remember much of the dialogue

[dim minnow]

the Maya of our timeline was a pretty solid person at first until she grew obsessed with the Veil

[slow berry]

Maya is fucked up as a person kinda in general but the conductor specifically is like, arguably the most far gone (probably by virtue of being involved with the veil)

[dim minnow]

and it is heavily hinted that the Conductor is our Maya

[slow berry]

She used to be regular golden age crazy scientist fucked up

[river surge]

Inside the vexnet

And Maya is the Conductor and I mean the original Maya the one who studied the Veil

[slim girder]

Hinted is more like confirmed that the conductor is THE Maya. As only she would have any memories of Neptune, studying the veil, interfacing with the vex, etc.

Though now she is beyond reasoning to the point she refuses to believe the chioma she murdered was the real one thinking she would understand.

[slim girder]

We helped them find each other within the vexnet over the course of the raid and also thanks to our markers placed in the raid we were able to help them with their efforts to map the vexnet which was the original goal of all 227 copies of the pair

[river surge]

The reasoning why she died in the first place?

[slim girder]

Who? Maya?

[river surge]

We are literally talking abt Maya

Like we know she died for a "reason" cause she was found dead

[slim girder]

Sry just had to confirm.
Maya "died" through interfacing with the vex through the veil. Chioma states she found Maya dead in conductors chair but that was just her leaving her body and into the vexnet

[river surge]

This Maya is just so annoying to the story its irritating

She has 227 copies of her

We speculate she is the "Conductor"

And somehow the real one died while entering the vexnet

Understanding

0

[slow berry]

The 227 copies are from the goblin incident

The real one's body died when she used the veil to transport her consciousness into the vex network

[slim girder]

I'll try to sum it up
The real Maya interfaces with the vex and leaves her body. Chioma also follows her.
The echo falls into the network and Maya only being a formless bit of data touches it and uses it to form her body which is what we see.
That is when she is born as the conductor

[slow berry]

Then Lakshmi-2 is her consciousness in an exo frame she kinda macgyvered

[trim grotto]

*partially

[lofty badge]

has it ever happend that a ghost raised someone into a Lightbearer who is just really annoying and rebelious even to their ghost? and if so could one way for the Ghost to keep them in line is to threathen to just not revive them when said Lightbearer is killed?

[sick yew]

Ghosts can simply not rez their Guardian if they die

Fynch did that

Gilgamesh did that in the lorebook for the Dead Mans Tale mission whos name I forgot

But Ghosts have no direct way to control their Lightbearer's actions

They cannot turn the light off so to speak

All they have is the choice whether to resurrect or nah

[lofty badge]

yeah that's what i mean but fair

are ghosts bound to the one guardian after they raise them or can they leave their guardian just dead and then find someone new to raise into a lightbearer?

[sick yew]

They cant resurrect anyone else ever

[lofty badge]

mostly thinking about it if its possble for Fynch to do in the future or nah

[lofty badge]

got cha

[sick yew]

They get their Lightbearer and thats it

But they arent forced to stay near them

As Ana says in one of the Portal missions, her Ghost mostly hangs around in the last city while she is out and about

[lofty badge]

makes sense

[dim minnow]

Drifter was just like that except his Ghost never threatened him like that, she just kinda took the abuse.

[lofty badge]

oof

[slim girder]

Dredgen yors ghost was ordered by him to leave him.

Like pointed his gun at him and everything iirc

[dim minnow]

What was his name again?
I think it was Vincent

[slim girder]

Maybe????

It's some old lore

[queen swallow]

Searching "vincent" in Ishtar only pulls up this: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-brilliance-of-bloom?highlight=vincent

[analog torrent]

Do I have to play the raid to get Ikora's backstory or can I just read the loretabs of the raid items

On an unrelated note, are there any more lore entries like The Hidden Dossier? Really liked the philosophical parts, keep coming back to it every few months

[frigid sparrow]

raid loot doesn't actually have any lore tabs this time around

same with salvation's edge

as for the hidden dossier, that's an entirely separate thing

it's weblore and not an actual lore tab thing

[analog torrent]

damn thats crazy
where are people getting the Ikora backstory from then? Raid dialogue?

[frigid sparrow]

so it's not like, a lore book

[frigid sparrow]

the campaign

[analog torrent]

someone said there was ikora lore in the desert perpetual

were they tweaking

[frigid sparrow]

yknow what I never checked to see any lore books in there

[frigid sparrow]

well assuming the lore book is The Immanent and taking a quick peek at ishtar collective, Ikora isn't mentioned

[analog torrent]

about hidden dossier tho
ik it's not a normal piece of lore, I was just wondering if there were other pieces that dealt with philosophy

on a more literary note, where does The Hidden Dossier rank?
For comparison, I've read The Apology of Socrates and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance but have otherwise not studied philosophy in the slightest
the discussion of qualia was fairly shallow but effective while the discussion of the prisoner's dilemma was mindblowing to me
not sure if it's because I'm not well-read though

or like
where do you go from the hidden dossier? for more philosophy on enduring relations between two parties

[hard sigil]

the hidden dossier is good but it falls behind a little because they're missing the context of the driving thought of darkness, the Witness

they were still pinning darkness as a blanket force of evil at the time

and so the thesis of "darkness manipulates memory for those who would utilise it for vengeance"
The Darkness remembers the hurt that was done to us so that we cannot be exploited by those who would hurt us again.

Of course now we have the knowledge that dichotomy is far more neutral, and that darkness is more of a general manipulative force of psychic energy than specifically memory, and that the witness was leaning into that specific power of memory because it was on a quest of vengeance itself

I do agree with the Light not restoring memory is a conscious choice by the traveller to allow for that grace of not being tied down by part traumas, but also I believe that it's a restraint of the light itself, as although it can manipulate all the physical portions of the resurrection down to the subatomic, it cannot restore the psychic portion of who the risen used to be (although this itself is inconsistent, considering a risen, brought back past their initial resurrection, retains their memories)

[eager trout]

How much do we know about her from before the Veil?

[hard sigil]

quite a bit thanks to her being so prominent

and things like the goblin incident

[eager trout]

Could also be that each Ghost makes a back-up of their risen's mind. In theory, the Traveler might be able to restore the memories of Guardians, but for that it would need to have them. Technically the mind is stored physically in your brain, through neural impulses and maybe DNA.

[eager trout]

What Goblin incident?

[eager trout]

But do we know how she was?

[hard sigil]

that time she and the Ishtar team got copied

[hard sigil]

I'd say yes, and muscle memory and whatnot does seem to persist in risen due to them being able to like. walk, talk and use weapons. but full actual memory of events would seem to go against what bungie is setting up with the physical/mental split of light and dark

[hard sigil]

from the vex grimoire cards she definitely seems a lot more normal

What I’m doing here in Lhasa isn’t science. It’s unethical, secret, and shameful. And after what happened in Ishtar, dearest Chioma, I know you’d be furious with me for getting involved. Forty years isn’t far enough to forget a day like that.

wonder what she'd think about what she's doing now

actually I think one of the raid lore tabs is he going back to Lhasa

[slow berry]

The Goblin Incident was they got their hands on a goblin and they were looking into it and realized the goblin had made 127 exactly perfect simulations of the research team

Immediately the research team realizes that if they can be simulated perfectly, they cannot be sure they are not themselves simulations and not the original people

Eventually they resolve this by showing the goblin Rasputin, who is so complex and gigantic the goblin fucking dies from trying to simulate it

Then the 127 copies are released into the vex network where they worked on mapping it iirc

[hard sigil]

and they're still around today :)

well. most of them

[slow berry]

mostly the not-chiomas

Most of the chiomas are dead

[orchid folio]

I hope they have more compelling villain in the background cooking than Maya.

Tired of the conductor shite

[sick yew]

Who would you call compelling personally

[orchid folio]

The hive pantheon, Eramis had solid motivation but poorly executed. The witness and their disciples.

[sick yew]

the Hive Pantheon, we have Dead, scared crybaby and crybaby with the light

[orchid folio]

They're all far more compelling. If you're going to call them crybabies, we'll need a whole category for the conductor

[sick yew]

Maya is delusional in her own way
Savathun just got angy that we killed her not even real brother

[orchid folio]

I think the vex need representation that can emote. But I still hope something or someone else is in the background cooking

[sick yew]

Vex are always a very tough faction to actually implement into the narrative

Because it inherently clashes with their concept

Endless army of emotionless robots* whos plans for total conversion of the universe are measured in Eons

[orchid folio]

I'm down with the Vex plan and their whole vibe.

They stand out. But they need a prime mover. Someone or something the player can direct their intentions at

[river surge]

Vex the most complex faction in Destiny

[modern lodge]

Vex are kinda boring

I think Maya giving them individuality was cool

I wish it was shown more in game

Like coral vex running away and just having those individual behaviours

[sick yew]

I can seem them moving into that direction in the future maybe

Possibly one of the now individual Vex will emerge as a figure we actually talk to

[sick yew]

And thats precisely the issue because the Vex inherently dont have that personality

They dont talk they dont really think in a way where y ou could write them into the narrative

thats the double edged sword, its what makes them cool and unique as a concept but also just really hard to have them as anything but a side faction to shoot at or for specific lore tabs but not in the ingame narrative

[modern lodge]

How'd it speak, it's milk

[sick yew]

Exactly

The most 'speaking' we ever got out of a Vex was Quria during Splicer when she send us fucking text messages to our hud

Or that time also in Splicer when that funky harpy blinked Assistant in morse code hinting at Asher being around still

which wouldnt become relevant until fucking Lightfall lmao

[modern lodge]

I don't even remember when quria slid into my dms

[sick yew]

The 2nd Splicer activity

The non matchmade one

[jagged badge]

Quria isn’t a she btw. Just an it like other Vex

[orchid folio]

She's a she to the rest of us!

[jagged badge]

That’s a complete misconception with 0 basis in the lore. The Vex don’t have genders and don’t get gendered

They’re all just “its”

[modern lodge]

Vex are expired milk

[jagged badge]

By now, Quria knows it can’t win.

Quria shuts down its weapons and puts all its spare resources into sending telemetry to the greater Vex.

[sick yew]

Right

[jagged badge]

It’s a common misconception, for what it’s worth

[sick yew]

Actually wait on that note, I could very well just be misremembering things but wasnt Panoptes back in CoO referred to as male?

Nvm

They also used it back then

[sick yew]

Naturally, it is a feminine sounding name after all

[fresh zephyr]

Ghaul’s armor could absorb the Light?

Nevermind

[sick yew]

What

[river surge]

Is there any lore implications that we have been simulated by the vex the same way Maya and Chioma did

[sick yew]

No because they cant

[river surge]

Sad

[sick yew]

We are paracausal

You cant math us

Thats like the only reason Sol is even still lived in and hasnt been consumed into a Vex server long long ago

Paracausality is basically a middle finger to some of the fundamental laws of the universe
So a bunch of super smart calculators can try as much as they want to try and calculate us but dividing by zero remains impossible

Except that one time where they had to create a dedicated mind to spend potential years analyzing Saint-14's light in order to suppress it and it specifically while he was just slaughtering every Vex in the Infinite Forrest that even dared to exist

[hard sigil]

a vex Mind trying to read my next move when I spontaneously create and then throw a miniature sun into its core

[eager trout]

To be fair, each Vex unit is made up of thousands of beings. There's no way to accurately describe them.

[slow berry]

they're microbes

[eager trout]

Then you die to something stupid (never let them know your next move)

[slow berry]

microbes have no sense of sex i think

[eager trout]

So we could defeat them with hand sanitizer?

[slow berry]

the vex might have gender idk but i dont think they would they dont seem exactly concerned with identity just yet

maybe in like two years

[slow berry]

you know that XKCD about how scientists find things that kill cancer in a petri dish

[eager trout]

They didn't have identity until Maya made one of the strangest decisions she's made

[slow berry]

well,

so does a gun

[eager trout]

Even without taking our powers into account, we're just too unpredictable

[eager trout]

Now we got Sharp Cheddar

[eager trout]

Maya's the type of villain you just hate. Whatever the reason, you'll hate her.

[slow berry]

she's aight

[eager trout]

There's not enough material here to tell whether she was normal or not. Crazy people can seem normal until they do something crazy.

[slim girder]

Maya has always had an obsessive tendencies with her work. Chioma was the person who pulled her away from all that.
Now you can see Maya without chioma as the conductor is a complete psycho who does not value life as we do.

[eager trout]

So she was never normal, just subdued

[slim girder]

For the most part. It's a bit like your friend calling you out on bad behaviour to make you look at yourself for a second

[slow berry]

fun fact chioma esi was ripped

[eager trout]

What does that mean

[slow berry]

Chioma Esi met Maya in their undergraduate gym. They got into an argument about deadlifting: was it necessary, was it practical, why was Chioma making so much noise? Maya Sundaresh just couldn't stand the notion that some things were done for their own sake, not because they had any use. Decades later they joined the Ishtar Collective on Venus to study the enigmatic ruins unearthed by the Traveler's terraforming. The first time it happened—Vex code leaping across an airgap, surfing the quantum vacuum from simulation to reality, infecting a utility frame—Chioma pulled an alarm while Maya tried to grab the precious frame with a cargo-grade gravity grapple. She couldn't lift the grapple. Chioma grabbed it, pinned the frame to the wall, and won the argument.

[eager trout]

Dang

Now I'm imagining Chioma physically restraining Maya to prevent her from doing mad science

That sentence came out way more complicated than I intended. But for some reason I couldn't summarize the thought.

[eager trout]

Maya really put all her points into intelligence and ignored everything else. Not even wisdom, just int.

[trim grotto]

Maya's weak nerd arms couldn't even lift our beloved old Tractor Cannon

[slow berry]

yeah makes sense why she's been inting since echoes

[eager trout]

Hol' up, so that's who the Tractor Cannon entry is about?!?

Somehow I missed that

[eager trout]

I knew this sounded familiar

Wait, why was there Vex code in the Golden Age?

[trim grotto]

It's what Lith just sent you yeah

[trim grotto]

Ishtar was studying Vex on Venus.

It's what made Maya's team famous.

Started the 227, all the data copies of Maya and her team, so on.

[eager trout]

Ah

The 227 what?

[trim grotto]

You might recall that you've been dealing with various copies of Maya Sundaresh who exist as data in the Vex network

[eager trout]

I don't

But nvm, you meant 227 Maya copies

[trim grotto]

Well it was the entire plot of Echoes's Encore, for example

[eager trout]

I've only played the Portal version

[trim grotto]

During the Golden Age, Maya Sundaresh's team realised that they were being simulated by a Vex unit they were studying. With no way to determine whether they were the real ones or not, Rasputin was brought in. Too complex to simulate by a single unit, he freed the 227 simulated teams, and they were released into the Vex Network.
Many are still there to this day.

[eager trout]

How is Rasputin even so complex?

[trim grotto]

His AI was designed to be powerful enough to control every single resource Humanity had, should a sufficient threat arise. Every weapon, every system, every individual ship should he commandeer it.

[eager trout]

Don't the Vex simulate everything in the vicinity?

[trim grotto]

This was a single Vex unit.

[eager trout]

Possibly down to the subatomic level?

[eager trout]

What can a single one do?

[trim grotto]

Not simulate Rasputin.

[orchid folio]

only redeeming feature is giving us more time to listen to Shoreh Agdashloo

[slow berry]

Thinking of how Failsafe does body horror in that sort of way with having no energy and little to nothing to actually interact with, imagine if you had a thousand million limbs and a thousand million eyes and all the brainpower and energy required to use them all

[eager trout]

Who?

[trim grotto]

ESI: ...we call for help.

SUNDARESH: That's right. We bring in someone smarter than the specimen. Someone too big to simulate and predict. A warmind.

SHIM: In the real world, the warmind will be able to behave in ways the Vex can't simulate. It's too smart. The warmind may be able to get into the Vex and rescue - us.

DUANE-MCNIADH: If we try, won't the Vex torture us for eternity? Or just erase us?

SUNDARESH: It may simply erase us. But I feel that's preferable to...the alternatives.

ESI: I agree.

SHIM: Once we try to make the call, the Vex may...react. So let's all savor this last moment of stability.

SUNDARESH: [indistinct sounds]

SHIM: You two are adorable.

DUANE-MCNIADH: I wish I'd taken that job at Clovis.```
Shim described Rasputin as being too complex to be predictable by the Vex. I, personally, assume that this is due to the Vex unit being lone. If the Vex put enough effort into it, such as many units or even a dedicated Mind, they would eventually be able to simulate Rasputin, as he is a causal AI.

[eager trout]

What body horror-?

[trim grotto]

Maya's VA.

[eager trout]

Ah

[orchid folio]

I can see you never watched the Expanse

what a shame

[eager trout]

Why is Maya making indistinct sounds?

Also, wishing to work for Clovis instead of anyone else must mean your job really sucks.

[eager trout]

The what

[trim grotto]

Pretty sure she was making out with Chioma.

[eager trout]

In the middle of...dealing with an unknown possible threat and the most complex and dangerous AI on Earth?

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/i-impact
This is Failsafe's body. This is how much of her body doesn't work. This is all she has.

Now, she's doing a little better since then, but it paints the picture.

[slow berry]

Check out Failsafe's lore tabs over the years (hazardous propulsion and some of the stuff in echoes), she's basically the opposite of Rasputin, or at least that's how I interpret it. A lone Golden Age on-board AI that was left alone for so long she developed a proper consciousness, then left alone and destroyed so long she developed anxiety and depression. She exists and can think, but the Exodus Black is so destroyed and damaged that the most she can usually do is look at things

[trim grotto]

"We're probably not real, might die, and our only hope might bring the Vex unit to delete us. Might as well enjoy ourselves for a moment before we could die."

[slow berry]

Look at the Fallen ransacking her body parts, struggling to even annoy them. Look at the rest of the system enter the Pale Heart and chase after the Witness. Look at the Cabal landing a massive tank and nearly stomping her.

I really like Failsafe!

I'm so glad the narrative and lore team really seems to have their ideas well structured and defined, because I'm so saddened when someone says "omg we should get failsafe an exo body"

To be noted that while she does have access to the HELM during the episodes she also isn't in the helm, she's just connected to it

So she's still pretty fragile also

[eager trout]

Ok, that makes sense. Shim's reaction, however, is weird. Who even likes seeing other people making out?

[slow berry]

I mean they werent oogling

just calling them adorbs

[trim grotto]

Your personal opinion of disapproval doesn't make it weird.
Also, they work together. They know one another well.

[eager trout]

I have a strong aversion for everything.

[slim girder]

Or you don't have any other options. You gotta live.

[eager trout]

Being homeless gives you a better chance of living than working for Clovis

[slow berry]

tell that to cayde

[eager trout]

Plus, it's the Golden Age, where everything was supposedly solved, shouldn't homelessness also be solved?

[trim grotto]

Europa's facilities are on the extreme end of what it's like working for the Clovis Bray corporation. For most people in most locations such as Mars, it would be a perfectly normal job.

[eager trout]

Ironic

[slim girder]

Not at all. The underbelly of the golden age was not pretty.
Just look at how exos came to exist

We made advancements but it wasn't entirely ethical

[slow berry]

it is my personal opinion that we should give failsafe the warmind hardware

[eager trout]

Isn't it just Clovis trying to become immortal and using the Vex for that?

[slow berry]

this will be good and make everyone happy

[eager trout]

I wouldn't consider that to be the common underbelly of the Golden Age, and it still falls under "working for Clovis"

[slow berry]

now you might say "what about xivu arath"

[trim grotto]

The Vex came into play late. Exo already existed, they were just unstable and unsuitable for human minds. Braindeath was inevitable prior to Alkahest.

[slim girder]

No. He created Rasputin as a "test" then planned to take over giving him control over Rasputins systems which as mael said is EVERY human resource available

[slow berry]

and the answer is just tank it

[eager trout]

Isn't Failsafe a little...insane?

[slow berry]

That's very rude!

She's just got anxiety

And she's a lil' depressed maybe

[slim girder]

Failsafe is best girl

[slow berry]

and she's got attachment issues a little bit

but i trust her entirely with every weapon humanity ever made at the same time

[eager trout]

I'm not saying she's not, but isn't it a little too much to give her access to everything?

I mean, imagine not being able to walk and suddenly being given the ability to travel through all possible dimensions

[trim grotto]

Failsafe does not operate as she was designed to and hasn't for many years. She's a malfunctioning subpreforming mind trapped aboard a corpse. However, she's also a person and is, above all, just cripplingly lonely.
I wouldn't give her access to the Warmind's systems... but she does deserve a treat.

[eager trout]

Plus, giving her access to the Warmind systems wouldn't give her a body, she'd still be physically stuck in Nessus.

[slow berry]

what if the systems but maybe not the weapons

or maybe some weapons

she can have a little weapons, as a treat

[eager trout]

What other systems does something called the Warmind have if not weapons??

[trim grotto]

Kind of depends on the systems. The Warsat network has gone kablooey, so she'd be a bit locked into whatever you put her in.

[slow berry]

like, shit, almost everything

they did give that guy access to every lightbulb basically

[eager trout]

https://tenor.com/view/gangle-tommy-gun-shooting-gun-maniacal-laugh-maniacally-gif-15694873446442681361

Failsafe when she gets weapons

[slow berry]

Also fun fact the reason she's able to reasonably land the HELM is during revenant is she specifically plans for it so she wouldn't have another exodus black happen to her

[trim grotto]

She did actually command the weapons aboard the Exodus Black. They just haven't functioned for centuries.

[eager trout]

If Bungie wasn't afraid of overhauling patrol locations we could have a big change to Failsafe

But to be fair, it would be a hassle

[slow berry]

I just really like how they write Failsafe's (and Rasputin's, when they still wrote Rasputin)'s first-person lore

You really get the idea that they're not human, but entirely human, you know?

[slim girder]

She already has hands on experience with crash landings

I don't really think it's planned just more deja vu for her

[slow berry]

i like the implication that she landed it on the tower's wall specifically

for faster repairs

[trim grotto]

she landed it on europa

[slim girder]

^^^^

[slow berry]

oh i know that

[slim girder]

"Slammed directly"

[slow berry]

but the way the scene cuts

where it's like falling and then it just shows the helm at the wall's hangar

that's good landing alright

[slow berry]

Another message was a scheduled reminder to familiarize herself with the H.E.L.M. systems, which were woefully unprepared for the kind of worst-case scenario she had encountered with the Exodus Black. She would have to update the safety systems, bring emergency transmat relays online, calculate possible terrestrial touchdown sites in the unlikely event of a forced landing… unquestionably important work, but, for the first time, she felt it could wait.

[orchid folio]

yup yup

[eager trout]

She landed it into a different scene

[eager trout]

Which Destiny villain does not suffer from anything or have any backstory reasons to be evil?

[slim girder]

The winnower.
Bro just wants us all to see its view but isn't inherently evil about it.

[wispy cedar]

why doesnt he just take a picture of his view and show us? is he stupid?

[eager trout]

No no, you've got a point

[eager trout]

Ok, let me rephrase my question. Which villain is evil not because of some backstory related thing, mental illness or condition, or inherent nature, but just by choice?

[slow berry]

Dominus Ghaul, I guess.

Just sheer powerlust

I think.

[eager trout]

He probably has some issues, considering he desperately wanted to be noticed by the Traveler

[wispy cedar]

maybe he had mommy issues then and we all just judged him for it instead of trying to help :(

[eager trout]

Crazy that Ghaul was probably the least evil villain we've had in D2

He just wanted the Light but went about it too stupidly

[dim minnow]

Ghaul was cast off from Cabal society at a very young age because he was deformed (probably albinism)

Then Consul found him and mentored him

Consul being a previous leading figure of the Cabal Empire before Calus took over

I do think Consul fits a lot better with what you're looking for

Despite what Calus did to him, it seems like he was always a prick

[hard sigil]

the vex kinda fit that too but they don't really have a concept of morality

that being said being "evil" is almost always a result of circumstances, I wouldn't say anyone ever is evil just for the sake of being evil

[dim minnow]

yeah, it's usually too nuanced for it to be simply because they chose to

since their choices can also be influenced by certain things

[queen swallow]

Philosophy time?

Philosophy time

Evil is as much a choice as good is. Circumstances cannot make one good or one evil. There can be options to choose that could be given to someone over the course of their existence. At the same time, where one views a choice as "evil", another might view it as "good", and a third as "neither". The Vex have a goal that could be understood, from our general perspective, as ranging from "neither" to "evil".

Certainly, their pursuit of our extinction (or at least subjugation) could most definitely be considered as "evil". Their overall goal (to remake all reality in their image), however, is harder to pin down morally and would differ on an individual level like most other things.

[vital linden]

No spoilers other than this question, how the heck does plot armour guardian beat the witness if the witness is allegedly so strong like frickin Palpatine or something

[dim minnow]

like do you want me to explain how we beat it in TFS?

[queen swallow]

I can summarize it in a single word if you want

[dim minnow]

||There were multiple factors that allowed us to take out the Witness. For starters, the Light was what was needed to unmake the Witness which Guardians have. Then you had the fact that we were able to obtain the ability to use both Light and Dark in harmony which was something that made the Witness afraid of us. Then of course there were the dissenters which the Pale Heart's unique aspects allowed us to reach. The dissenters being part of the collective that the Witness was made from so destroying them through the use of the Traveler's Light was the primary way we harmed the Witness. Of course, using the power of the Light was also effective on the Witness itself. It is worth noting that it took us a lot of effort and even Targe (Zavala's Ghost) sacrificing himself to allow us to learn how to destroy the Witness. It then took the combined might of the coalition (Cabal Empire, Awoken, House of Light, and Vanguard forces) along with some assistance from the Lucent Brood to keep the Witness cornered so us and 11 other Guardians can finish it off. The Witness itself up to that point was too focused on subduing the Traveler fully so it could enact the final shape which was why it couldn't fully focus on getting rid of us until it was too late.||

Spoilered since I'm assuming you haven't beaten The Final Shape yet

[queen swallow]

I'll post my summary too: ||Sword||

[river surge]

U forgot the raid

[queen swallow]

Spoilers

[river surge]

And btw Palpatine was more killable than The Witness could ever be

[river surge]

I just said raid