📚lore-discussion

[slim girder]

I'd just like to see what a day in the last city looks like for a regular civilian.

[floral flicker]

Imagine ensurance during the Red War

They ain't covering a cabal meatball smashing my roof

[sick yew]

Lets think back to the days of Chosen for a moment

Had we failed the rite of proving
You guys think Zavala would have honored the deal?

[slim girder]

He prolly would have struck the same deal Saladin made to be on the war council.

Caiatl is smart. Even though she's Cabal I don't think she'd be able to cause as much of a problem as the red legion did.

Pretty sure at that point we had the cabal fairly outgunned and caiatl doesn't have an almighty or traveler cage.

[sick yew]

At that point in time tho?

Zavala always seemed even more opposed to Caiatl than Saladin as crazy as this sounds

He was ready to punch the shit out of her in Risen

[dim minnow]

But there was the Psion conclave who had reverse engineered a fragment of the cage into those small Ghost cages

[slim girder]

True but caiatl didn't have any involvement in it considering it was a traitor who fired it. She seemed just as surprised as us that Zavala had his light cut off and stepped in to save his life.

Then proceeded to execute the ones behind that stunt.

[dim minnow]

But if we did go into open war with her, then I'm sure the conclave would be able to convince to mass produce them for her soldiers

The only reason they were traitors were because at that point we were not going into war with her

[slim girder]

That's definitely a possibility. Idk caiatl is cabal but I don't see her as being as war crazy as someone like ghaul. Kinda like her father in a way.

She's absolutely capable of war and conquest but it isn't her first option.

[vast kiln]

In a Fanfic I wrote with a friend, Kelgorath was defeated in Season of the Lost with a simple bitchslap.

I think it is lore accurate.

[river creek]

Would the warsats actually have been able to destroy the traveler?

[river surge]

Yes

The Travaler can be damaged it was proven during The Collapse

And even possible to be destroyed

[frigid sparrow]

And, even if it didn't, the act of war would've empowered xivu enough to finish the job

[river creek]

what?

[ember storm]

Xivu planned on us gaining control of the warsats to kill off all her forces in the system

This is a supreme act of war, which due to her nature in the sword logic, would’ve given her a major power boost

[wheat flower]

Nvrmind

I didn't read it all

[frigid sparrow]

if eramis gets her attack on the traveler off, it either destroys or severely weakens it to the point where a powerful force like xivu could finish it off, and with collateral could probably institute as an act of war
if we keep control and use them, what waltz said
which is why rasputin completely shut down the warsat

[stoic juniper]

why do the guardians have to travel all over the sol system. why cant they just sit in the city and defend against things that want to fight. wouldn't it make sense for all the powerful people to stay in one spot instead of thinning out in such a large area?

[frigid sparrow]

that is actually an incredibly bad thing, but we've already consolidated into multiple areas

it's why we don't go to places like venus anymore, there's nothing for us

but we have places like neomuna under constant war, the vex on nessus constantly trying shit, clovis to keep watch on in europa, a throne world we don't want under savathun's control

if we allow enemies to regain and take ground, that allows them to attack us in larger, better numbers

as devrim puts it, "I'd rather fight a series of battles than a whole damn war"

[river creek]

oh

[worldly river]

That'd allow the enemy to gain larger beachheads from which to grow their own forces for an attack
Plus while we are spread out, so are they, if any given faction or Traveler Forbid multiple were to muster all their forces against us again... Well, its likely the only reason we weren't overrun at Twilight Gap was Mara intercepting the House of Wolves in the Reef

Hell even without the Witness itself, the Black Fleet and it's affiliated forces might've rolled right over us in a direct battle had much of its forces not either bypassed us or stayed behind to keep us busy

[modern lodge]

i have a question about exotic weapon ornaments

are they gameplay only?

[slow berry]

most of eververse is gameplay only

[trim grotto]

You could make the argument for certain ornaments that they could exist, such as with foundry produced weaponry like Hard Light, but some of our Exotics are one of a kind.

[ember storm]

nah see i totally went and paid tess everis to give my sentient taken worm god sniper a cool paint job

xol is very happy about the facelift

[pastel veldt]

Is this the game with the flood?

[celest kite]

i heard caitl is the new vangard becauase the crow is going to nuke the traveler and has been hiding the fact that uldren sov never died and the fallen are the chosen people and the traveler has been against us giving us constant problem. what will the traveler bring to us? more dispair. thats why its called destiny, because its our destiny to do the dirty work for the evilness of the traveler

[dim minnow]

No, but we have Vex which are kinda similar

[frigid sparrow]

Revision Zero can specifically be noted as a gun where the ornaments can be considered canon

[vital jackal]

I spy Grimm and Hank Hill, dangerous combo there 😂

[modern lodge]

i see it as customisation

like outbreak for example

the nantites could totally restructure the gun no?

[trim grotto]

you "heard" this huh

[trim grotto]

Perhaps, yes.

Either way, ornaments aren't really described in canon. Except sort of Revision 0.

[slim girder]

This is as nuts as the theory that our guardians don't talk because our ghosts pilot dead corpses which they funnel the light through to protect themselves

[sick yew]

Wdym my guardian absolutely spend billions of glimmer to get a custom shell for their legendary ace of spades so it has the funny chicken on it

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/drew-scanlon-white-guy-blinking-sunglasses-yeahhh-excuse-me-gif-12929296

[slim girder]

Yes this was an actual theory.
TLDR a ghost resurrects a guardian but the ghost is piloting the guardian and using them as a puppet. So whenever we hear a guardian talk this is actually the ghosts doing not the guardian and why our own guardian at the time always had ghost speaking.

[trim grotto]

[sick yew]

Based on what evidence??

[slim girder]

That guardians don't speak very often, ours in particular at the time and also going off even older theories that sometimes had the guardians painted as the bad guys because of pahanin touching a ghost flower and being called a "dead thing"
Again it was a crazy theory and didn't gain basically any traction but still funny to look back on.

One of the "what if we're evil" type things

[sick yew]

But there are plenty of lightbearers who talk a lot especially with their ghosts

People just be saying shit these days I swear

In other news tho, is it just me or was the Exile Archon one of the funniest characters we've gotten in a long time?
I aint even mad he never really got into the main focus of the story but every time bro started yapping some zealot shit I couldnt help but smile

[slim girder]

Yeah this was a D2 vanilla theory. So it is OLD. Back when we didn't have almost any lore in the game at the start.

[slim girder]

I swear he has an Australian accent when saying some words

[sick yew]

Is it the same VA as Fikrul?

I cant seem to find the name of the VA anywhere

[modern lodge]

The archon was funny

[sick yew]

Dude was playing his own game

Do we have like any lore on him tho?

Does he actually have some kind of foresight or visions or is the bro just crazy

Or both

[modern lodge]

I think he is just fucking nuts

[slim girder]

Think he is honestly just nuts. Seems both archons we've fought are nutjobs obsessed with prophecy and ascension whether it be via becoming a giant siva spider or throwing the body of an eldritch being into a black hole to give it enough to consume the solar system

[sick yew]

But there is some kind of magic shit going around with the whole speaking through other stuff no?

[modern lodge]

Definitely

Probably the dark matter

[slim girder]

Not too sure about that.
All we know is that it's the same thing we saw in vespers where "the white captain" was the main entity and could see through the eyes of every fallen we fought there

[modern lodge]

The white captain is probably atraks

[slim girder]

It's one of her copies. Not THE atraks though we don't believe.

[modern lodge]

No the original atraks is very much dead and my hunter has her skull

[sick yew]

skin*

[slim girder]

That doesn't mean you killed her, she already discarded her skin when becoming an exo fallen

[river surge]

Aksis The Spider

One of the best designs a boss could ever have ngl

[slim girder]

Again it does seem like fallen archons due to the ether needs start to go quite insane with godhood and "prophetic" abilities. Like I don't think Aksis was completely there as the big spider only that he was about to be one with machines. And then we have Levanzsk who is jumping between bodies and ranting about his desire to feed the singularity and ascend to make his house of exiles "House eternal"

Very Cthulhu esque bring about the end of everything to achieve enlightenment type stuff

[river surge]

Still peak design

[sick yew]

Dude was so out of his mind I almost wish we had gotten a seasonal narrative or sum just dealing with him

[slim girder]

Still not confirmed if we actually killed him though. He was upset we stopped him but it didn't feel like the kind of thing someone would say if they were dying. If he can jump bodies and scamper away maybe he might rear his head again to try something else.

[sick yew]

Id be down for that

[slim girder]

Yeah. We have quite the cast of psychos lol.
One is trying to use time travel and murdering celestial beings and copies out of rage.
The other is trying to ascend to godhood through a black hole consuming everything.

[hard sigil]

I'm interested in exactly how the dark matter ether is letting the archon do the possession

[river surge]

Idk but bring Aksis back pls

[sick yew]

Mans dead

Not a single raidboss we ever killed has survived now that I think of it

Actually no thats not true

Riven did

But thats it I think

[hard sigil]

technically Nezarec

through Mithrax and the curse

[trim grotto]

Riven did count as dead even in Wish, to be fair.

[hard sigil]

yeah that was a spooky ghost

[sick yew]

Nezzy is dead its just his spirit type shit or motivation that lived on via his artifacts no?

[sick yew]

Then yeah cant think of anyone who ever survived 6 guardians (Witness is arguable but they bailed so it doesnt count)

[trim grotto]

And died a day later anyway

[trim grotto]

It was... an aspect of Nezarec that could have become him once more in time.

[hard sigil]

counts in my book

[river surge]

😭

We kill peak so we remain with mid

Always happend in destiny

[slim girder]

Bros like cell. Just a thought or single atom of him is enough for him to return.

He is the literal god of nightmares though so it's not exactly something you can just kill off. Like the very embodiment of fear.

[hard sigil]

I think that was a title, not literal godhood

[slim girder]

Nah he is a literal god as in with cult followings and worshippers.

You can read about some of his followers in the RoN weapon loretabs

So long as there is fear in the universe he exists.

[hard sigil]

eh fair

[modern lodge]

That's not what I mean man, I mauled that FALLEN with parasite in dsc

[sand flint]

Did anyone else get a sympathetic soft spot for the hive during the wichqueen

[slim girder]

No. I only felt bad for the ghosts because their choice to join the hive was a lie and they were manipulated into reviving hive.

Went into the throne world out of curiosity and had the door shut behind them.

[sand flint]

The traveler did give savathun a ghost

[sleek matrix]

It wasnt the traveler directly in that way

More like a ghost happened to wonder

[sand flint]

Fair point in that

But the ghost wasn't tricked he chose her

Not only that the hive were lied to tricked into believing that there was a great cataclysmic event coming and the dark was the only thing that could save them. So yes I have a soft spot for them

[sick yew]

They were lied to sure but they do kinda still be monsters and shit

With their worm's endless hunger and their religion dictating not just survival but existence of the strongest it is a tough spot since they cant just quit but eeeh

[sand flint]

Humans would be no different

[sick yew]

If youre referring to the cutscene of Immaru resurecting Savathun that wasnt just coincidence, they had planned this for a long time

[sand flint]

If a higher power came to us and said to avoid extinction you must do what we say...we would

[sick yew]

Listen up everyone we got a mf bug sympathiser over here!!!

jk but yeah obviously a misguided humanity sucks too

Just look over at Warhammer and how humanity is doing there

[sand flint]

Right

[sick yew]

Immaru and Savathun worked out the chain of events rather precisely so it is assumed
They knew each other for a while before the WQ cutscene of Savathuns resurrection

I dont believe we know whether Savathun is the first lightbearing hive but if we assume so they took a pretty big gamble that it would actually work, if not it was just another step of the plan

[sand flint]

True

[sick yew]

Its very unclear if the Traveler 'programmed' the ghosts to only be able to resurrect certain species but not others, hell had you asked anyone if Hive could become lightbearers pre WQ it would have been a hard no

We only know of those who actually got resurrected
Maybe other races could too, Eliksni Lightbearers have been a fan idea for years

[sand flint]

So true

I wouldn't mind an eliksni playable race and maybe a new class for them

[sick yew]

If there really is no direct distinction between species for a Ghost then by all means we might have Lightbearing Vex in theory at least since there are some who obtained individual thoughts

[sick yew]

Lore wise? Sure
Realistically though? No shot

[sand flint]

You mind if I dm you for a sec

[sick yew]

By all means

[meager coral]

@west tree :(

[west tree]

BEGONE

BOT

[dense pike]

mxn.lmv has been banned!

[meager coral]

[river surge]

Savathun was different she saved humanity 2 times indirectly

so she deserved that light ngl

[river surge]

and the traveler

[sick yew]

Well yeah but she also pulled some not so great shit over her years

[river surge]

She is doing anything for her own survival

[sick yew]

Im sure Osiris didnt mind being mind controlled for a year

She just did it for her own survival yk

[jagged badge]

Keyword, indirectly

She never did anything explicitly for our benefit out of benevolence

[jagged badge]

Hive like Luzaku may eventually prove that the Hive could benefit from a second chance with the Light. But Savathûn consciously stole that second chance from most of her followers. In Risen she literally mentally enslaved them to follow her

[meager coral]

tbf didnt she ice nez and trap rhulk

not for our benefit, but for the traveller

the risen plot sorta confuses me too, since she seems happy luzaku found her own way, saying how thats all she ever wanted the hive risen to do, so why tf was she mind bending them?

[sick yew]

Luzaku mentioned!!!!!!

We love her

Did you know she actually has tons of dialogue with all sorts of characters if you rerun that lost sector?

[hard sigil]

she was proud of Luzaku for rebelling, but that doesn't mean she wants her army to disband.

she just found it nice that Luzaku was willing to go out on her own and forge a path different than the one laid out for her. much like what Savathûn did

[sick yew]

I have a feeling shes a bit more opposed to that now, post heresy

[meager coral]

her crashout was honestly fair

[hard sigil]

I dunno. that was a personal vendetta against us, and the city by extension

[meager coral]

we steal her sons head and kill her brother again

[hard sigil]

unless Luzaku decided to actively ally with us instead of just doing what she interprets as the traveller's will I think it'll be fine

[river surge]

Actually will The Traveler ever heal that portal?

on going inside the pale heart

or it will remain there untill Bungie decides to Sunset it

as part of the story

[jagged badge]

The characters suggest it will take a long time to heal

Which to me feels like narrative justification for the Pale Heart remaining as a place that can be visited in game

Which Bungie always generally tries to do

[river surge]

Thats why we need Destiny 3 as a reset

[slow berry]

Edge of Fate is the reset

Kinda

[river surge]

Lowest player count 😭

But hey maybe we will get that generational comeback soon

Lets hope

The story so far is good

[lofty badge]

i just want more solo ops man..

[frigid sparrow]

And functionally nothing would change

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah, I'd hope for at least 1 a location in Ash and Iron (barring ones like eternity), we've got places to reclaim everywhere

[lofty badge]

they could make so many solo ops but nooo only 7

or 6

[frigid sparrow]

Although, it's funny how the season is supposedly based on going to uncharted territory while it's also based on "reclamation" of lands we've already been visiting

[vital jackal]

As soon as i saw Iron and heard we were going back to the Plaguelands i got so excited 😎

[river surge]

Functionally a complete new game this time not anymore free and full of premium stuff

this time no more complains and actual gameplay yes

[frigid sparrow]

lol, lmao

[river surge]

Yes

[frigid sparrow]

Whether by choice or by actual ignorance, bungie would repeat multiple of their mistakes with a new game, whilst having already limited resources for d2

[river surge]

Can they for once learn from their mistakes and actually create something THAT no one would complain

[frigid sparrow]

That is going to be impossible

Everyone is gonna complain about something no matter what

[river surge]

I kinda wanna talk about this but not here on lore channel

[slow berry]

Are you memeposting d3 again

[river surge]

Again not here

[cursive sedge]

guys i just realized cabal are the space marines of destiny

[sick yew]

uuuuh

Minus all the hyper religion

But besides that I sorta see it

[cursive sedge]

like they have a bunch of army their huge and they have motives

yk what i mean?

just a thought

[eager trout]

I mean, their religion is violence

And they were kinda forced into a religion by Xivu

[sick yew]

Not even remotely to the extend of the Imperium of Man in Warhammer

[sick yew]

what

[dim minnow]

I don't even think Cabal have strong religious beliefs

Psions do though

[river surge]

Psions are the true wierdos of that faction

Also any reason or lore wise why was Taniks during DSC?

[ember storm]

its not really religion they just tied myth to their own history and make it their general philosophy

Acrius becoming the first cabal emperor because he like fought the sun or something

[river surge]

Cause I never truly understood that I only know Atraks was going and prepare the "body" which probably was Taniks

[river surge]

Fought the sun? What????

[dim minnow]

more like claimed it

it was protected by a large beast that had killed many previous challengers

[river surge]

Legend of Acrius

[dim minnow]

however, over time, these challengers kept landign blows on the beast until it was weakened enough for Acrius to take it down

[river surge]

What a cool anme

name

[frigid sparrow]

he's one of the most legendary fallen out there, and eramis needed backup plans... and what better than having one of the most notorious fallen revived as an exo?

[jagged badge]

He wasn’t revived as an Exo

[frigid sparrow]

well, it was the intention behind it

[trim grotto]

It was never described as such. Atraks got the Exo treatment, and Taniks was revived in a more classic Fallen fashion, though probably with Bray tech.
The use of Taniks was more for the benefit of a famous, powerful warrior who respected Eramis.

He might have become an Exo in time, as many of Salvation may have become if they succeeded, but there wasn't really anything suggesting he was directly tied to the idea, at least initially.

[eager trout]

War

[eager trout]

Wasn't that a metaphor?

[eager trout]

Taniks, The Immortal

He'll come back, trust

[uncut drum]

why is ikora bald?

[slim girder]

She's not. She shaves her head

[uncut drum]

oh

I thought the nine took her hair 😂

[slim girder]

On the battlefield I think hair like hers might be a lil impractical.

Back in Chicago she didn't have to worry about the extinction of all life in the universe

Just a chill mother living her best life in the DeO listening to chill beats.

[uncut drum]

what do you think happened to her kid after she got kidnapped by the nine?

[slim girder]

She wasn't kidnapped. She was killed by the nine to set up events that would eventually lead her to where we are today.

As for her kid i would imagine they were very sad but hopefully a grandparent or even her husband took care of them

[uncut drum]

It would be epic if they came back as part of the one house who revolted in the tower

[slim girder]

What?

House?

[uncut drum]

I meant like dead orbit and whatnot

ikora vs her children

[modern lodge]

?? Her kids are dead bruh

[modern lodge]

Remember the dark ages lasted for Fucking ages, the golden age also lasted for fucking ages

They say life span tripled so people lived to 2-300

During the golden age

[ember storm]

that'd be like over a thousand years period idk if the family name would even exist

[slim girder]

Back in Nellas and Lodi "Louis" time the traveler had been spotted but still wasn't in the solar system until 50ish years later. So those kids might have been there to witness it's arrival maybe but I don't believe they would have lived into the golden age. And this is assuming they are still kids at the time. They could be early 20s making sandwiches for their mother before work

[dim minnow]

well let's see, there's at least a 3 year timespan between when the Traveler first appeared in Sol and when the Ares 1 crew went out to meet it on Mars

and the Golden Age pretty much began right after that

so if they lived to see its arrival in Sol, then they could have lived to see the early part of the Golden Age

[slim girder]

That's possible. But they def would have been much older. Like maybe in their 60s or 70s when the golden age truly start moving

Not sure if as soon as the golden age happened lifespan tripled. Advancement is great but it does still take a while

[slim elk]

Definitely was great political upheavel

USA turned into the North American Empire

[lucid oyster]

what is a dredgen? i have seen the title in game but i dont know what it actually means. I want to know since in renegades we are chasing around a dredgen from our knowledge but i dont actually know what it is? is it a new type of enemy, a fallen or something else?

[sick yew]

Dredgens were a group of Lightbearers back in the earlier city age days who were among the first Lightbearers open to the idea of utilizing the darkness in some way

Dredgen as a title comes from the famous rogue lightbearer known as Dredgen Yor who used the original Thorn and killed a good few lightbearers over his time

[lucid oyster]

so would we be classified as dredgen if we use stasis or strand?

[hard sigil]

no

[sick yew]

By the way of thinking back then? Absolutely but these days Guardian culture has shifted a lot

So its fine now

[lucid oyster]

ahh i see

so we are going to be chasing a rogue gaurdian in renegades

[hard sigil]

modern dredgens are closer to a gang or cult

[sick yew]

Dredgens ranged from all sorts of individuals, people who just were a bit more open minded about the Darkness being a neutral force like we now know it is and also people who were just batshit insane and easily fell to corruption

The only two remaining Dredgens alive today (that we know of currently) are Drifter and Shin Malphur

But Dredgens rarely ever showed themselves as such cause it was more like a secret group kind of deal

Again, back in the day they would have crucified your ass for being open to the idea that the Darkness aint the ultimate enemy

It took until Beyond Light when Lightbearers were actually starting to use Stasis for this thinking to start shifting and even that was a rather rocky road, refer to Zavala in the Beyond Light campaign or the story of Shayura

[sick yew]

They always were that tbf

Edgy fellas who thought Yor was a cool dude and shit

[hard sigil]

and then drifter and shin kinda made the Shadows into an anti-corruption spy program

[sick yew]

You mean the Dredgens

The Shadows are the Calus spies

[hard sigil]

Shadows of Yor was the name of the group

[sick yew]

Oh right

[hard sigil]

Dredgen was the title of members

[sick yew]

Forgor

Also Shin actually founded the order so he could easily keep track of people he suspected either fell to corruption too easily (so he could blast em) or to help those with an open mind

Drifter was just a meme lord who took up the Dredgen name as a joke and started handing it out to people who were gambit regs out of spite

[hard sigil]

wonder if it's gonna be Teben in renegades actually

he was the other co-founder

[sick yew]

Honestly im surprised theyre bringing the Dredgens back anyway

Like that whole lore section is pretty old by now

Last time they were relevant was during the Forsaken year

[slim girder]

They are old but still very relevant. Just look at Osteo striga and the necrotic grips. Or the new lore tab for necrochasm when that came back. Even though we use darkness nowadays the dark weaponry of a dredgen is still quite taboo considering it's usually lifted from hive influence and the legacy of those weapons is one filled with (pun intended) sorrow

Dredgens are rogues and again while paracausal darkness is more common now those dark weapons still have corruptive properties and dredgens will want to try and tame them.

[sick yew]

Or fail

[slim girder]

Exactly. Just like jana 14 who i'm actually betting could be in renegades.

If the dredgens and weapons of sorrow are involved. Where better to hide than on mars in an underground empire

[sick yew]

Where is Shin when you need him smh

[slim girder]

I think i should also say a dredgen isn't a rogue as we in need to hunt them but rogue as in they seek taboo sources of power and generally work outside of the rules of the city.

They get their hands dirty to help fight threats

[sick yew]

Or they fuck up and become a problem

[slim girder]

Mhm

I really hope we see more of Jana 14 the serial killer guardian. I'd love to actually see in game what being corrupted by that kind of power look like, Like thorn and Osteo strige changed shape but does the guardian also start to shift in appearance?

[sick yew]

Unless its in a cutscene I highly doubt we'll get to see anything like this

But who knows

[cursive sedge]

alex i have a very good question

[blazing wasp]

You could ask away and someone will eventually answer probably

[cursive sedge]

guys so by lore the planets that are gone did the darkness or witness made them disapear?

[blazing wasp]

The witness, the darkness is more of a force of nature

It's not a force of bad, like how light isn't a force of good

[cursive sedge]

but why did the witness took the planets away was he like hungry? was it a must for the next step of the story ?

[sterile crater]

Like negative and positive charges or smth?

[blazing wasp]

Each destination held something of value

[blazing wasp]

More that light is about the physical, dark is about the mental and psychological

[cursive sedge]

what were the value

[sterile crater]

Wait what stuff was removed?

[cursive sedge]

too many

[blazing wasp]

Mercury's infinite forest, titan's Leviathan (the proto-worm god), the pyramidion and the tree of silver wings on io

[green cobalt]

Mars, Mercury, Io, Titan

[blazing wasp]

Oh right mars too

Mars was probably Rasputin

[cursive sedge]

bro the worm is still in the game

[sterile crater]

That ancient Ai?

[cursive sedge]

i did its quest

[blazing wasp]

Some of them have returned

They're weird, different

[cursive sedge]

so why didnt the planet return with it

[blazing wasp]

Lore wise they did.

[green cobalt]

ahsa is definitely not in the game right now

[cursive sedge]

does the game not follow the lore....

[green cobalt]

Mars returned with temporal instability

[blazing wasp]

We just can't explore all of them, those we can we can only explore in a limited degree

[blazing wasp]

Gameplay doesn't follow the lore in every single game with lore of any depth

[green cobalt]

there's no reason for us to go there lol

[blazing wasp]

Without a single exception.

[cursive sedge]

what about mercury

[blazing wasp]

Mercury ain't back yet I believe

[cursive sedge]

did osiris expantion happen in mars or mercury

[blazing wasp]

Mercury

[green cobalt]

Mars is in game after its in-lore taking in The Arrival and Vox Obscura and that's about it

[blazing wasp]

Enclave too

[cursive sedge]

ok what about the raid with the big ahh cabal sitting in his throne i forgot what its called

the first raid of d2

[green cobalt]

leviathan

[blazing wasp]

Leviathan

[cursive sedge]

yeah that

[blazing wasp]

It was on nessus, then calus fucked off and became a disciple to the witness

Then the Leviathan returned and crashed on the moon

Fucked around with some nightmares

[green cobalt]

it's parked on the moon since season of the haunted (s17) which involved Calus transfering his consciousness from the leviathan to the lunar pyramid

[blazing wasp]

Then he got his pyramid flagship instead and assaulted Neptune (lightfall dlc)

[cursive sedge]

and every loot that was in leviathen cannot be obtained anymore

?

[green cobalt]

right

[blazing wasp]

Correct

[slim girder]

It didn't crash.
And that is nezarecs ship which we stopped him from getting to.

[blazing wasp]

Actually there's a remade midnight coup from it

[blazing wasp]

I'm talking about the flagship he uses

[cursive sedge]

so the ship thats in the moon can u explore it

leviation

leviathen

[green cobalt]

no

[cursive sedge]

can you even see it?

[green cobalt]

yes

[blazing wasp]

Landed is more accurate

Than crash

[green cobalt]

it's a big part of the moon skybox

[blazing wasp]

It's not a "pyramid" but it's the same tech

[slim girder]

You said the Leviathan crashed on the moon.

[blazing wasp]

Crash is a bad word

Landed is more accurate

[green cobalt]

you could during season 17 but since it was seasonal it got removed once Lightfall came out

[blazing wasp]

The flagship I'm on about is the ship he uses in lightfall

[cursive sedge]

ok why did it land on the moon

[cursive sedge]

where did the ship go

[green cobalt]

to get calus to the lunar pyramid

[green cobalt]

it's there still

immobile

[cursive sedge]

ohhhh so the big ahh ship that has calus head its in neptune

[north hearth]

i might be wrong but i think the duality dungeon happens on the leviathan? the symbol to launch it is on the leviathan on the moon rn
can't explore it on patrol or anything though

[green cobalt]

the Leviathan is on the moon

[blazing wasp]

It sure does

[slim girder]

^^^^^^
It didn't crash onto the moon. You can still see it above the moon. It never made contact

[blazing wasp]

Yes.

I have corrected that twice

[cursive sedge]

ok then whats the ship that u explore and has statue of calus in neptune'

[green cobalt]

doesn't Duality happen in Calus' mind technically?

or memories of his

[slim girder]

It didn't land either

[blazing wasp]

Yeah but the entrance is in the Leviathan

[blazing wasp]

I didn't mean land as in made contact

[north hearth]

he got a new ship from the witness that he uses in the lightfall campaign, different one from leviathan

[blazing wasp]

Irrelevant semantics as we both agree on what the Leviathan did

And every participant understands

[green cobalt]

point being it's parked on the moon

like i said

[blazing wasp]

Yes

[cursive sedge]

guys isnt the leviathen bigger than a planet

[green cobalt]

don't think so

[slim girder]

No. It's big but not THAT big.

[blazing wasp]

Maybe a real small planet.

Smaller than Pluto for sure

[slim girder]

It breaks down planets more and then sucks the debris in

[green cobalt]

that's it

[cursive sedge]

it can munch the moon

[north hearth]

it was big enough to start eating nessus but nessus is much smaller than the moon

[cursive sedge]

okay the leviathen is RIGHT THERE i cant fly to it with my ship and do the raid?

[green cobalt]

no

[slim girder]

Because it's covered in egregore and no cabal are left there

It's nothing like the shiny golden ship it was before

[cursive sedge]

whats an egregore

[slim girder]

It is now a decrepit derelict

[north hearth]

it's because lore-wise there's no raid left to do, calus and im guessing also his robots are gone and all of the cabal who follow him have either joined our side with caitl or joined the shadow legion
gameplay-wise though it's because they removed the old raids and campaign from the game 🙁

[slim girder]

A darkness fungus that can store consciousness

[cursive sedge]

who are the shawdow legion exactly

i only know cabal

[green cobalt]

Calus' loyalists

[slim girder]

Cabal affiliated with the witness and Calus

[green cobalt]

they love him so much!

[north hearth]

the cabal who stayed with calus when calus joined the witness, basically cabal who follow the witness/darkness

[cursive sedge]

and the cabal who are with caitl are our allies?

[north hearth]

the cabal from the original game with ghaul were also a legion called the red legion, but from the original campaign and some season content they all got beaten so they're all now either dead, joined the shadow legion or joined caitl and are now our allies

[green cobalt]

yes

[north hearth]

yeah i cant remember what her opinion of us was when she first showed up but there was loads of missions you could play which were basically ritual combat between her champions and zavalas champions, and we eventually made friends

they showed up after the hive destroyed the cabal homeworld so now theyre just chilling in our solar system

[cursive sedge]

man i loved the redwar campaign man what a shame

when u said ghaul it brought me back

[north hearth]

i think some of those missions came back recently in the portal menu too, anything that starts with "battleground" is from that season story

[cursive sedge]

i played one where i fouight with her champion

in a tank

[north hearth]

oh yeah thats one of em

[cursive sedge]

ok does mercury EVER come back or does anything happen to it by lore

[north hearth]

dont think so, if you go to the lighthouse from winning in trials now you go to "lighthouse simulation" instead of "lighthouse" implying we cant get to mercury still

[green cobalt]

idk about the current state of the portal but there are multiple activities with battleground in their name from season of the risen and season of the seraph that have little to do with caiatl or season of the chosen

psiops/heist battlegrounds

[blazing wasp]

We don't know if it'll ever return

[north hearth]

oh my bad i didnt play those seasons oops, i just remember everything being called battleground back in that caitl season

[cursive sedge]

how do you feel about that

did u play the expantion?

[blazing wasp]

Yes

[blazing wasp]

Apathy.

It was uh

Bad.

Bad as practice but did not affect me negatively in the slightest

[cursive sedge]

how come

[north hearth]

i wish they'd atleast bring the old raids back or something atleast but the planets i could take or leave

[blazing wasp]

It was bad, small destination, the campaign was lacking in story and awful in gameplay, the post campaign content was just resource grabbing chores and replaying snippets of the campaign in the same area

The strike was at least cool

[north hearth]

only downside is without the original campaigns the experience for new players story-wise is horrible 😅

[blazing wasp]

And the final boss looked cool

[blazing wasp]

Reintroducing it now would do even more harm

[cursive sedge]

what about the rewards and the shi that they js vaulted and wont come back i think thats unfair too

[blazing wasp]

God awful rewards

Most of them were bad at their best

Now they'd be among the worst legendaries in the game

[green cobalt]

noooo not the bad static roll weapons! think of the new players!

[cursive sedge]

honestly bro i liked the expantion i but thats just me

[green cobalt]

rose tinted glasses i fear

[blazing wasp]

Some liked ot

It*

[cursive sedge]

uhhh no

[blazing wasp]

But so few did I shit you not when I say it almost killed the game

[cursive sedge]

ion wear glasses

[green cobalt]

people would not like it today

[blazing wasp]

It was possibly the worst state the game has ever been in

[cursive sedge]

cmon it cant be that bad

[green cobalt]

and not shadowkeep?

[blazing wasp]

Correct

[green cobalt]

damn

[cursive sedge]

id say 2020 was its worst

[green cobalt]

shadowkeep sucked so bad i was convinced it would kill the game

[blazing wasp]

Not a single expansion had destiny in a worse state than curse

In terms of the games health, curse is the worst dlc destiny 2 has ever seen

With little competition if any

We've had rough patches, but none as bad as curse

[cursive sedge]

i believe the patch that took everything off the game was even lower

[north hearth]

yeah on the first day me and my friend got the cutscene where you get into the pyramid, went "ok we've finally finished the busywork intro to this dlc let's get back on tomorrow and play the story!"

aaaand that was...the end??

[green cobalt]

the dlc that started the seasonal format too

[north hearth]

only reason i even played the game again after that story was because xbox game pass made beyond light free for a bit haha

[slow berry]

i liked garden progeny

[river surge]

I dont wanna sound rude but that expansion was fully made by Bungie

(I am not saying its their fault)

but it was their first expansion

made entierely by them

[green cobalt]

awesome it sucked

[river surge]

I cant deny this

[sleek matrix]

I started pre vaulting

[river surge]

BUT

BUT

[sleek matrix]

Best time in destiny

[river surge]

BUT

[sleek matrix]

Season of arrivals goated

[river surge]

Beyond Light was the expansion that truly killed the game

[green cobalt]

guys this is our first expansion we're making alone, let's make half of it public events and patrols

[sleek matrix]

It was the thanos snap of destiny 2

[river surge]

Yes

[sleek matrix]

[river surge]

and thats when they just

fucked it up

and thats where they cant deny

the introduction of DCV

truly killed the game

lore wise and fun wise

[green cobalt]

oops i forgot to include the nightmare hunts

[river surge]

They thought the game was too big

but guess what

[green cobalt]

SK campaign so good!

[river surge]

Warmind and Curse of Osiris were small as hell

Raids dont get that much of space

and

Red War was prolly the biggest one

[sleek matrix]

Its not even about what was lost

[green cobalt]

storage space is a bs excuse, they just didn't want to remake the content for their engine upgrade

[sleek matrix]

Its the principle

[river surge]

What I thought

in the first palce

place

and thats prolly the answer

[sleek matrix]

Cod is like 200gb

And its still on old gen

[river surge]

and its mid as hell

yes

Destiny couldve been the greatest game ever

[green cobalt]

the game is surely bigger right now than it was before they vaulted stuff

[river surge]

and i am not kidding

the story and the campaigns are insane

[sleek matrix]

Its getting to that size

[river surge]

Slowly its getting

but the truth is

[sleek matrix]

I would say its nearly there

[river surge]

2-3 expansions away

smth like that

my game size currently is 130 gb

[sleek matrix]

Its kinda crazy thou

[river surge]

not even close to 200

but still

its getting there

[sleek matrix]

Because that was only like 3 4 years of content

But were 5 years past

[green cobalt]

who could expect the ever expanding game as a service's filesize to get bigger as time goes on

unheard of

[sleek matrix]

We defo have gotten less content compared to when activision was here

[river surge]

They shouldve remake the raids past raids to this new engine that would attract more players

this is a MUST do

Not make a raid with 4 encounters and time gate the 5th for another content thats prolly gonna be worse

ngl

[green cobalt]

gone from multiple studios "helping out" to just Bungie with like half working on Marathon

[river surge]

Actisivion truly helped the game

and no one can deny this

[sleek matrix]

Yea i think ppl are gonna be shocked were gonna get way less content going forward

[green cobalt]

well yeah we already don't get seasonal content anymore

[river surge]

And rn the main reason is the game space

I 100% think they are worried for the game being too big

and not only that

but they are lazy to remake stuff from the past

with the new engine

[green cobalt]

sadly that wouldn't make them any money and only generate little engagement

[river surge]

From what I have seen people are more hyped about the past rather than the future

They always say the future is gonna be bad

[green cobalt]

if we got the entirety of D2 vanilla up to forsaken back nobody would care

[river surge]

so make the past come back

[river surge]

They had no reason to remove Forsaken ngl

Lore Wise that campaign was crucicla

crucial

[slow berry]

seen where, reddit posts from people who havent played since d2 launched?

[river surge]

Some dudes that have 10k hours in the game

and some that really played the game for a large amount of time

As someone who started during Beyond Light I cant just make assumptions

Maybe they are right idk

But one thing is clear, the game lore wise is prob one of the best ever

[green cobalt]

i might be delusional but i feel like Shadowkeep should have been the end of d2/the setup for d3

[slow berry]

people have said that for basically every expansion at some point

[green cobalt]

"we are your salvation" bla bla find out more in Destiny 3 coming soon

[slow berry]

including right now

[green cobalt]

if it was up to me the witness would have enacted the final shape and i would have shut down the servers a year later

[river surge]

😂

[eager trout]

When you think about it, first we fought those who wanted to impose a fate on us, then those who wanted to end all fate, and now we're fighting fate itself.

[visual scaffold]

Yo, bungie cooked with this expansion

Ikora and lodi knowing each other and the nine killing ikora in the late 50s so that she'd be a guardian over a thousand years in the future is crazy

[sick yew]

I still like to think that the Nine actually just wanted to punish Nella for running a red light

[visual scaffold]

I'm a sucker for pre golden age/golden age stuff and the fact that lodi got torn out of his time and threw into a unfamiliar place and not even knowing the world ended is so wild

[visual scaffold]

I still don't get why she ran out of the office like her house was on fire because of flowers

What was the emergency

[sick yew]

I dont think we entirely know but theories range from something relating to her daughter to other types of things the Nine could have planted in order to get her to leave early

[visual scaffold]

The sign at the intersection saying "nine" is so wild

I'd love for bungie to give us more pre golden age/golden age lore in relation to current events. They cooked with this and I love it

[sick yew]

It was pre good yeah

[river surge]

WE NEED

More about

Golden Age Clovis

I want another expansion regarding the exos I want another expansion that features Europa vibe

[eager trout]

Could have been that

[slow berry]

She got notified something happened at home, probably to her daughter

[slow berry]

The Ares One story is really cool

We might finally get some more info there

[jagged badge]

What more info do we need?

[trim grotto]

The flavour of the astronaut food they brought with them

[jagged badge]

Ah true

[slow berry]

Just the general geopolitical state of Earth at the time would be interesting imo

Like the entire traveler publicly sighted (not just by the DEO) to it finally arriving is a very cool period they haven't really dived into

Also Mihaylova cooking up Baby Rasputin

[modern lodge]

I'm curious about what happened to religions

[jagged badge]

There’s this interesting quote

[dim minnow]

we already kinda have practically all the context we need for Mihaylova and R. (expect for how Clovis Bray obtained R.)

[jagged badge]

Mia van der Venne is more than 200 years old. Change comes faster, these days, and you live to see more of it. Changes like Ismail being allowed to pray not in the real direction of Mecca but in the direction Mecca would be if it were transposed from Earth to Titan. Changes like the rise and fall and rise again of the Bray cult of personality. Like the new worlds the Traveler opens up to humanity.

It shows how religions survived and even adapted into the Golden Age

[modern lodge]

Correct me if I'm wrong but is Mecca the black cube stone? Or am I thinking about something else

Still interesting though

[jagged badge]

From a cursory Google search, it’s a city

[modern lodge]

Why put me on blast :(

[jagged badge]

Oh I didn’t mean it like that

I was more illustrating my own lack of comprehensive knowledge on the subject

[dim minnow]

I think Mecca is where the cube is

ok, so the cube is called the Kaaba, and it is indeed located in Mecca

[visual scaffold]

I wish there was a lore explanation why any enemies except the most powerful attack guardians on sight. It's literally suicide. They see us atomize their comrades with zero difficulty and decide to try and melee us lol.

We literally kill Gods and turn them into guns, if I was a thrall I'd steer well clear of something that could just say no to the laws of physics.

The vangard should be able to clear locations out by saying "get out or I'll send the guardian to kill everyone in here "

[dim minnow]

keep in mind that we aren't invincible

and a large amount of Guardians haven't even fully mastered one subclass

[trim grotto]

We're also glass cannons. Both we and our Ghost could die to a single Dreg with a sharp rock if the Dreg was particularly motivated.

Death and resurrection are more dangerous than gameplay can reasonably represent. Darkness Zones in game come closer, but still.

[slow berry]

you see your character nodiff a hundred bozos every solo op but consider that in reality guardians are much more fragile than that and enemies much more lethal

[trim grotto]

Plus those thrall might have a chance if they're facing a kinderguardian of the same skill set as the average matchmade Fireteam member

[slow berry]

always keep stuff like the great disaster in mind

the entire reason fireteams are teams of three and very rarely six at most is precisely because guardians got arrogant and thought they'd might as well go "kill everyone in there" and clear the moon out

[sonic forge]

Here’s a horrible idea: Faction War

Choral Vex vs Lucent Brood

Who would win?

[dim minnow]

Lucent Brood have the paracausal advantage

plus Savathun herself is no joke

hell, she'd probably trick the Nessian Schism into working for her

[sonic forge]

Don’t forget about the Conductor’s echo though

[dim minnow]

of course, all the advantages a Vex possesses without being held back by being a collective thought is dangerous

[sonic forge]

Especially after her most recent use of it

[dim minnow]

her most recent use left her weakened

[sonic forge]

True

Now that I think about it, how would the echo against something like Savathun?

[dim minnow]

of course Maya and the Echo is something the Nessian Schism have going for them

[dim minnow]

towards the end of Echoes, we can see that Maya can use it on Cabal and even non-exo guardians like us (assuming you're Awoken or Human) and Ikora

and later, a 4th dimensional being like III

if Maya manages to reach Savathun, she could use it on her, but it should be mentioned that Guardians are capable of overcoming the Echo's Command

[sonic forge]

She could try to command her ghost cease living possibly

[dim minnow]

though the requirements for managing such a feat aren't exactly clear

possibly, but we've never seen her use it on Ghosts yet

[sonic forge]

Yeah, and that’s a thought that’s concerning

[dim minnow]

as powerful as the Echo is, it should be noted that Maya isn't the best with it

recall, she lost pretty badly in EoF

and now even her own collective are turning on her

[eager trout]

Except Savathun always does a little trolling to avoid everything

[dim minnow]

exactly

[eager trout]

She lost without even doing anything.

Wait, what did she do in Edge of Fate?

[dim minnow]

Maya may be smart given her background as a scientist who worked for Ishtar, but Savathun can definitely outsmart her

[dim minnow]

she killed III (a month prior)
She tried to keep a quarantine over the Singularity (which we broke)
Every other minor move her Vex were doign on Kepler was pushed back by us
We cleared the remainder of her Vex from the Singularity in the raid

[sonic forge]

What if maya simply issues a “no more tricks” command against Savathun’s spells and illusions?

[eager trout]

I mean, what even was her specialty? Scientist is a very broad term

[modern lodge]

They should eat that rotten mongrel

[eager trout]

She could have told us to "stop fighting", or told her Vex "obey me"

[dim minnow]

I'm not sure, but she was studying Vex specimens back in the day

[modern lodge]

Also what happened to the good Maya and chioma copy after tdp?

[dim minnow]

I'm not sure

I actually haven't even done the raid yet

[modern lodge]

It's pretty fun and the loot is actually pretty good

[eager trout]

You know your plan is a mess when even the Vex start to question what you're making them do.

[sonic forge]

She also killed a vex that wanted to pursue art

I swear the more I get to know the conductor, the harder I want to tear that echo off her neck

[modern lodge]

Yeah she is just an evil copy

[eager trout]

Maya be like:
-Give the Vex free will
-Vex use their free will
-Kill the Vex for using their free will

[eager trout]

Isn't she a 100%-ish accurate copy?

[modern lodge]

Don't think so, in the raid there is a good chioma copy helping us

Sorry Maya copy

And also a chioma saying that isn't the Maya she knows

[eager trout]

Yeah, but it could be like a Guardian situation

[modern lodge]

I don't think that's how the vex network copies work

[eager trout]

Where the "copy" is simply the original but with different experiences, leading to a different personality

[dim minnow]

there is implications that the Conductor is our Maya after giving herself over to the Veil

[eager trout]

I don't think the Vex decided to make a copy of Maya and increase her evil level to 100%

[modern lodge]

So original crazy maya

[eager trout]

Which makes you wonder how

[modern lodge]

She was fucking bonkers no?

[eager trout]

And could explain her similarities to the Witness.

[dim minnow]

apparently there was some benefactor involved, though we do not know who

unless said benefactor is the Echo, but I'm not sure on that

[eager trout]

Involved in which part?

[sonic forge]

I say we take the echo from maya and use it to make her unable to remember her plans or chioma. Those memories will always on the tip of her tongue but she’ll be unable to remember. Then we destroy the echo right in front of her.

[dim minnow]

At least I am not alone here. My new ally more than makes up for the Vex's dreadful company. Their disposition is calming, reassuring—a welcome voice when I need affirmation and guidance. And such a fascinating origin! Such astounding variance in biology and culture. I look forward to our continued partnership.

[modern lodge]

The echo is way to useful to destroy are you kidding

[dim minnow]

These are problems my Vex can alleviate. Why take risks with AI when a more straightforward force may be utilized to facilitate a civilization's rise? Related… research with my ally has proven the path forward. Radiolaria remains easiest; its individual minds are simply so small, although they are multitudinous their connections make it simple. Other larger, more complex minds prove difficult for the time being… But I am not unfamiliar with the rigor of practice. I will delight in trial and error.

[modern lodge]

If we had it, it's a different situation than the echo of navigation

[dim minnow]

imma be real, we do NOT need that thing lying around

no matter what possible use it can be

[modern lodge]

While that is a good point I'm greedy and I want it

[dim minnow]

and it does have a mind of its own, though like the Echo of Riis, can't force itself away from its wielder

[modern lodge]

Who's the mind do we know? Navigation was oryx, echo of fucking what ever was Kell of stone

[sonic forge]

Understandable. I kinda wanted to convince the EoN to aide us in exchange for us testing his sisters.

[hard sigil]

it's the commander of the Qugu. can't remember their name off the top of my head

[dim minnow]

EoN?

[sonic forge]

I think it was the echo of riis or something

[dim minnow]

oh Echo of Navigation

[dim minnow]

not confirmed I don't think

[modern lodge]

Was that a light gifted race?

[dim minnow]

Qugu were more Dark aligned

[hard sigil]

Te'Qal was the name

[dim minnow]

but in a good way

[modern lodge]

Doesn't usually have a name based on its use?

[hard sigil]

they were wiped out by the pyramid fleet and Hive

[modern lodge]

It inversed things no?

[hard sigil]

it was just the echo of Riis

[dim minnow]

Riis was literally formed from the memory of the Whirlwind's victims

[modern lodge]

So witness and his fuckass cronies are so lame dude, so many cool species

[modern lodge]

Fair enough

[eager trout]

Why destroy the Echo when it's probably the one thing that can defeat the Vex?

[modern lodge]

That one cinematic was awsome

[hard sigil]

well they'd have the be. the echoes are the Witness' memories

[dim minnow]

we don't really know what the Echo of Riis' powers were

[modern lodge]

I thought we did, it was a reversing thing no?

[dim minnow]

it could turn living Eliksni into a new form of Scorn, it could cure Mithrax of his evil Dementia

[hard sigil]

it was just control over Ether iirc

[dim minnow]

I don't really see how Ether control translated to curing Mithrax

[hard sigil]

Fikrul manipulated the Ether inside living Eliksni to Dark Ether, which allowed them to be converted without dying first, and Eramis like. idk. cleansed the curse from Mithrax with paracausal ether magic

[sonic forge]

I think it had something to do with both the echo being a fusion of light and dark, and the person living inside the it purging Nezquik’s presence from Mithrax

[hard sigil]

I don't think there's a singular memory of a person inside the echo of Riis. it's the memory of an entire planet, and all its inhabitants

[sonic forge]

Maybe it involves the intent of the user?

[hard sigil]

considering they're paracausal, probably

[eager trout]

That sounds like it's more than one being. Could be the Echo.

[hard sigil]

but yeah I don't think we can define the echoes as memories of singular individuals. a memory of one person (Oryx) who the witness was in contact with for quite a while, the memory of an enemy (Te'Qal), and their entire armada, and the memory of a planet (Riis) brought to destruction. they can all be as equally present in the mind, and not necessarily 1:1 with the reality of those memories. and the abilities just seem rather nebulously tied to feats the memories have, or related to the events of the memory

[eager trout]

Unless it actually doesn't want to leave Maya.

[hard sigil]

judging by how she's losing control and resorting to threats to command her troops, I'd say it's disapproving of her tactics

[dim minnow]

from what I heard, the raid lore book shows that the Echo is not really happy with how Maya is doing things

[hard sigil]

and how she like. used the Echo to free a group of vex from the collective only for them to refuse joining her and tell her to come back to the network to be assimilated

[eager trout]

Variance in biology and culture...
Does variance mean the same as variety? Or does it mean that something varies from time to time?

[hard sigil]

just means difference

a fluctuating change

[eager trout]

Maybe the Echo of Command is made up of the memory of different species that were "commanded" by the Witness?

[hard sigil]

it's not

[eager trout]

So "varies from time to time"

[hard sigil]

we know that it's specifically Te'Qal and the fleet they commanded

[eager trout]

How?

[hard sigil]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-dynasty

this is the account of Te'Qal and the fall of the Qugu, from Echoes

`With the Pyramid's dying wail, Te'Qal feels the presence of their ancestors, not as a distant guide, but as equals. The Resonance wave washes over them, and Te'Qal hears voices as if echoing from a dream, "Noble Commander, do not fade. Take our hand and find Salvation."

They see the line of their people extend through them, through all Qugu, through Darkness, and death, and memory. All swept into an obliterating Echo. And then nothing.

They extinguish, together.`

echo is capitalised at the end for a reason

[dim minnow]

and it just so happens that this lore book is unlocked by completing each act of Echoes

[hard sigil]

and also like. Maya mentions them by name

The fall dissolves my body because I allow it. The radiolaria takes my consciousness into the network because I command it. I do not perish; I am not swept away by outside force; the waterfall accedes to gravity only upon my word. The lingering presence of Commander Te'Qal in my C2 vertebra understands the value of a tactical retreat.

[eager trout]

So...could that be her ally?

[hard sigil]

for now, yes, considering she has the Echo

[eager trout]

I mean the ally she mentioned

[hollow drum]

do the vex exist in like a bridge between being 3rd and 4th dimensional beings cause they technically exist all across time and regularly jump through points between their existence

[eager trout]

No

[hard sigil]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/viii-gloria-mundi?highlight=Te'qal
but it seems that their relationship is straining. Maya isn't listening to Te'Qal. (the text in :____: is the echo)

[eager trout]

As far as we know

[hard sigil]

their time travel is only across timelines (outside of the VoG)

they can't go forwards or backwards

[modern lodge]

It's like going left or right?

[hard sigil]

yes

[hollow drum]

is maya able to then because she’s able to summon descendants and past vex

[hard sigil]

they have stuff from what seems like eons ago in the solar system because they pulled it from a timeline where they were already there

[hard sigil]

we see her converting normal vex frames into descendant frames in echoes. she just likes what they look like (and it gives a visual distinction between vex and choral vex for the player)

[modern lodge]

Btw what does the actual vex force look like

Like the actual fighters

And big boys

[hollow drum]

i think the case is that calus was just full of shit and there’s no specific combatant force

[eager trout]

So you're telling me Destiny and the MCU have the same type of time travel?

[hard sigil]

we dunno. the whole "we only see construction frames" thing is a misnomer because all vex units are jacks of all trades but the Wyvern is one we've seen that's built for actual combat first

[hollow drum]

their construction units still do trick fighting so why make special fighting units

[eager trout]

I mean, it's true that the Vex we see aren't specifically made for combat

[hard sigil]

no because they were still able to go backwards to the past of a separate timeline. the vex can only access the present of any given timeline

they can switch tracks, but the train is always going forward

[eager trout]

What about the Wyvern in Spire of the Watcher?

[hollow drum]

probably directing whatever the fuck it is they were trying to do with the spire

[hard sigil]

like I said any given vex unit is capable of pretty much any task to a certain extent

[hollow drum]

it’s not like we see it guarding or fighting actively before the encounter started it was doing some wacky vex shit wasn’t it

[hard sigil]

it was a mind in a wyvern because it was probably expecting resistance

(us)

it's main job was to find, then erase all mention of, the Veil and Neomuna's location

[eager trout]

Wyverns aren't probably made for combat though

Exclusively

Their weapons are still named after tools

[hard sigil]

that's what I'm saying. no vex unit is exclusively made for one specific task. they can all do a lot. it's more efficient to make a tool that can do a lot than 20 than can do one thing

[eager trout]

But if they ever do make a combat exclusive unit it would be terrifying

[hard sigil]

but we definitely haven't seen much of the vex. we don't know how much of the universe is vex. could be any number

[eager trout]

Vex don't believe in if

They only know when

All cool until you die to a Vex one day and its weapon isn't named after a tool

[modern lodge]

They can get pretty big

[eager trout]

Imagine if Bungie decides to introduce an Imp Swarm boss

[modern lodge]

Like the cylinder ships are just big milk injectors right?

[eager trout]

The what ships

[modern lodge]

It'd probably work like riven eyes

[hard sigil]

there was a specific imp swarm that was named in one of dossiers

[eager trout]

It shoots Imps at you

[hard sigil]

the Vast

[hard sigil]

There is a particular Imp swarm, self-referred to as ‘Vast.’ Reports warn this swarm ambushes Guardian operatives in an attempt to consume their Ghost.

[eager trout]

Why would they do that?

And does that mean Imps could have been specifically made as a Guardian countermeasure?

[hard sigil]

an attempt to become paracausal maybe

Imps are the decomposers of the vex ecosystem

meant to swarm and rapidly assimilate matter

like ants I guess

[modern lodge]

Impa are kinda cute

[hard sigil]

what's interesting is that all the small ones are clones of the main unit

[modern lodge]

I kinda want one

Just give it a wack a few times though

[hard sigil]

so why don't the vex just. mass clone radiolaria is my question

[eager trout]

How do we know that?

[hard sigil]

the same dossier as the Vast thing

[eager trout]

Until they start flying at you like they want to tear you apart

[eager trout]

How do they do it?

[hard sigil]

Leading theory speculates that the Vex Imp swarm is one singular entity, ungoverned by a Mind. Preliminary tests suggest that each Radiolaria within an Imp is a copied organism—an imprinted replication of a host, or core body believed to be housed in the central Imp frame. Imps vary in behavioral drivers, but a shared function is that of a decomposer. Imps will break down and reconstitute any material to grow their swarm, both inorganic and organic.

[eager trout]

Considering the smaller ones go into self-destruct mode when you destroy the main one, it's likely they don't have much individiality

Imagine they make the Vast a boss and the last step before you win is fighting off or escaping the swarm when you destroy the main one.

[ember storm]

i mean

vex units are specifically built for their tasks

some of their tasks are more general

but stuff like the Martyr Mind literally only existed to kill Saint

[hard sigil]

I mean the frames themselves, not specific minds

[ember storm]

yeah thats different from a unit

a unit is an individual

a frame is just the kind of vex it is

[hard sigil]

yeah

[hollow drum]

can a have killed in their throne world be rezzed by a ghost

[ember storm]

a hive that's dead to be resurrected by a ghost doesn't have a real throne world anymore

Savathun's is just a physical location in the ascendant realm because she went and rebuilt it with light as it was collapsing from her mortal death

it isn't a respawn point for her anymore

if a ghost can't access a hive's corpse because they were destroyed in a throne world that doesn't exist anymore, there's nothing to even rez

[visual scaffold]

So how would a guardian power scale? In lore there are feats that guardians have achieved that put them on at minimum solar system level and potentially galactic or universal level

[hard sigil]

they don't. power scaling doesn't work with paracausality

[visual scaffold]

I mean golden gun is as hot as the sun, guardians are literally paracausal beings, we are called "deathless", warlocks can literally cast small singularities on our enemies like nothing,

[hard sigil]

it's literally by definition not applicable with cause and effect

[visual scaffold]

I'd need to research but there are some feats guardians have done that would easily make them as powerful if not more than many popular super heroes like omni man

[hard sigil]

yeah in general I'd just not try to power scale guardians

[trim grotto]

And yet, as I said, a particularly enthusiastic Dreg could kill us and our Ghost with a sharp rock.

[visual scaffold]

Maybe if we stood still and did nothing

But without either overwhelming physical force or paracausality ghosts can't be killed

Neither of which a single dreg has

And no guardian would just let a dreg kill us with a rock lol

[trim grotto]

That phrase has become a bit of a curse. Ada-1 killed Ghosts and Lightbearers with nothing but her rifle.

It's a misleading phrase at best

[hard sigil]

it's just easier with very large attacks

in the same way it's easier to kill anything with very large attacks

[visual scaffold]

I mean tbh the lore is kinda inconsistent with feats and weakness

[hard sigil]

purposefully so

[visual scaffold]

There's other parts where guardians just eat damage that would literally kill anything

[trim grotto]

I would disagree, to be honest. Guardians are rather consistently written to be vulnerable unless they're in control of the setting, such as Saint and his Ward.

The famous poise and bulwark nature of a Titan is in no small part to their physical armour, not just their Light, for example.

But even then, a well prepared enemy could take us out. The Psion Conclave very nearly succeeded in assassinating Zavala with the Ghost cage and ceremonial blade.

Honestly they could have just shot him at that point

[hard sigil]

we're very much glass cannons

but its like. tempered glass

[trim grotto]

Ana Bray, a legendary Hunter, was very nearly killed by a psychopathic Exo whos upper brain functions were nearly erased.

Now, Exo aren't simple humans, but it was just one being of nearly animalistic intellect.

Anywho I'm going to drive home now see you in 40 minutes

[slow berry]

the first step is to stop using the powerscaling wiki

the second step is to remember that anything and everything has weaknesses and the whole point of stories is the interaction between those weaknesses and character's strengths

[dapper moss]

powerscaling is dumb!

[dim minnow]

for instance, Wei Ning, a legendary Titan, was able to punch a mountain so hard it shuddered microscopically

still an impressive feat

and Ana Bray once fired two golden gun shots that traveled for Lightyears after Jinju overcharged her with Light (which was something that has never come up in the lore again)

[river surge]

Can my titan do that too?

[river surge]

Imagine being in a planet chillin and a golden bullet breaks ur head

[slim girder]

200 melee stat

[slim girder]

Adding to this.
Despite our paracausal abilities we aren't actually superhuman or anything like that except for maybe exos but even as robots they have to be as close to human as possible to avoid needing a reset so getting super robot strength wouldn't be a thing.
A guardian is still as vulnerable to anything as any regular human like breaking bones, radioactivity, fire, electricity, trauma, bullets, etc. But our armour and ghost helps navigate those hazards.

Being a bulwark and immovable titan is more a metaphor for how the wield light and dark abilities and is more to do with their values.

Same goes for a warlock who seeks arcane power and knowledge.
Or hunters who love adventure and risks.

[modern lodge]

I thought titans juice their strength with light

Also guardians are like way stronger physically from memory

[slim girder]

Not really. Yes we do hear about feats and there are definitely some noteworthy guardians who are known for their strength. But again we aren't superhuman.
Saint 14 headbutts everything but even he needed a few tries and more leverage to destroy a vex.

Cayde got beat up pretty bad by scorn and was held up against a wall by just 1 before stabbing it in the head with his horn.

Ikora in a final shape cutscene got pretty scratched up when defending the city from a vex incursion.

[river surge]

Yeah but can I destroy mountains?

[rocky shuttle]

is there any mention of where zavala or crow is in eof? or is this one of those, we were out on a mission with ikora and got sucked into this and crow / zavala is elsewhere doing their thing

[slim girder]

In solo ops it's told that zavala is still recovering from the fight with the witness and crow is trying to keep on top of everything on his end

[slim girder]

Unless you decided to thundercrash from the upper atmosphere prolly not. We aren't capable of that level of destruction.

[river surge]

WHAT

Thats a scam

We can kill multiversal enemies but we cant destroy a mountain with out OWN powers

[slim girder]

Those enemis have weaknesses to exploit. A mountain is just a giant piece of land mass

[river surge]

😭

One thing surely I can say about Destiny is how unreal it can become

[blazing wasp]

We've never really beat those because we're strong

Like oryx, we sabotaged his proverbial food storage until he was literally starving to death, then stole hos nuclear arsenal and blew them up in his face after stealing his bunker

[jagged badge]

They weren’t invited

[slim girder]

The witness we had honestly no way of beating if it wasn't for the dissenters telling us where to start

And even then we had to corner it by "cutting" it off from the monolith

[limpid blaze]

Saladin beat high ranking cabal in a 1v1 without using his light. I feel there has to be some level of superhuman guardians just have. Intentionally or not

Cabal are massive. Weapon or not a base human is not matching that

Whether intentional or poor writing for base powerscaling guardians have pulled off insane physical feats without using their light abilities.

[slim girder]

Saladin is a seasoned fighter with his axe. Also if you read how that fight went he always dodged or used his axe to "catch" and redirect strikes along with dodges. Cabal are massive yes but not at all fast unless aided by the jetpacks we see them use. "half committed strikes" "sidesteps" "tests of speed and range"

That wasn't a test of who is stronger but who is a better combatant

[limpid blaze]

And any human no matter their training isn’t winning a fight against other warriors that large

Not without some level of superhuman capabilities

Probably Unintentional but guardians display superhuman like feats when not using their light

[slim girder]

Again saladin is a seasoned fighter. He'd know better than anyone his opponent has him beat in pure strength but as you can see saladin is not challenging head on and instead using his axe to punish that cabal that tries to attack him. As i said there are guardians known for their strength but they are not superhuman. We've seen plenty of guardians get slapped around even with light but enemies smaller than cabal i.e cayde with the scorn or that dredgen drifter had a taken captain bat away.

Saladin is trained and extremely seasoned in combat and over centuries has faced many foes in the dark ages big or small

[limpid blaze]

Did you miss the “no matter their training” part. Weight and height are huge factors in a fight and that’s for human on human brawls. A cabal dials that gap to 11. A normal human is not winning that

It’s a moment of unintentionally making a guardian pull off superhuman level feats. Writers do this stuff all the time because writing a peak human level character is hard without accidentally just making them superhuman

[dim minnow]

Size makes a huge difference in a fight

[slim girder]

Saladin is much faster, again you can see he is sticking to dodging and redirecting or "parrying" attacks. Only once does he try to absorb an attack and he ends up with ahead injury.

Cabal are big but they are slow

[slow berry]

its also rule of cool

[slim girder]

Hell amanda holiday a normal human with just a shotgun held her own against multiple armed shadow legion

[slow berry]

saladin wins over the big guy bc he's just that banger

[limpid blaze]

Try redirecting a cabals attack and watch how quickly you get demolished no matter your training.

[limpid blaze]

Yes with a gun. We are on about a melee brawl

[slim girder]

You think those shadow legion didn't also have guns?

[limpid blaze]

You are missing my point

Amandas situation doesn’t matter for this conversation because it was a shootout. Skill and luck are what matters. A brawl against a cabal though means size gap is a huge factor

Amanda isn’t throwing hands or is in melee range combat. She’s shooting people

[limpid blaze]

It is rule of cool. I am just saying the writers have moments they unintentionally give guardians superhuman style achievements. It would be better to just roll with the idea guardians are physically just a little higher up than normal because it makes writing them easier. Peak human characters quickly become superhuman level because writing them can be difficult

[slim girder]

And saladin has the advantage being much quicker. Cabal may be strong but they are slow. Saladin has also told caiatl he is no stranger to fighting other cabal and even remarks that the only constant in them is death. And saladin fights primarily with his axe. He's killed possibly thousands of them and once again is a seasoned fighter having fought his way through the dark ages as an iron lord.

Do i think guardians are a lil stronger than most people? sure but they are still very fragile when sustaining a hit if not for armour

[limpid blaze]

Why are you going “once again” for a point i already covered twice. I didn’t miss the point. I am saying it doesn’t matter

[hollow drum]

is our regular kinetic melees imbued with light or something

cause if not titans are just straight up beating them to death in varying amounts of punches???

[blazing wasp]

given how we crush ghosts with our bare hands like stress balls, yeah

shaw hand actually goes into it briefly

[dim minnow]

Guardians themselves are paracausal beings

And by that virtue, our weapons and armor are made stronger in our hands

[ember storm]

Well I’d hope so, salad without seasoning is gross

[frigid sparrow]

For the most part yeah, some guns like arbalest are very much "this is a gun made to be a gun that can theoretically be used by anyone" whereas new/no land behind is undoubtedly imbued with our light to give it greater power (guns do not typically make things explode.. like that). You can also take into account perks like osmosis or firefly

Chaperone was also used by Amanda and it got her to the last city as a kid, so

[slow berry]

got her mom, didn't it?

[slim girder]

Mmmmm balsamic salad dressing

[hollow drum]

does combatant damage actually deal light elemental damage or is it just gameplay

[slim girder]

Both kinda. It's not light but it is still an energy type.
For example void light and void energy are different

[dim minnow]

With the right measurements Light can be measured

It's just that Guardians can manifest Light out of thin air

[severe pine]

the graviton spike has no lore tab? Intentional or accidental?

[jagged badge]

Known bug I believe

[severe pine]

I hope so

[grand jungle]

So in the infinte forest and a coffin who was in it ?

Or was it corridors of time

[slim girder]

Us. That was our grave and it was supposed to be the events that would happen after our fight with the witness

[grand jungle]

Oh fr?? They planned it that long ??

[slim girder]

Not exactly. It's left vague but saint says we died during "that final battle"

At the time we didn't know what that meant but now we could def say it was a battle with the witness.

[grand jungle]

so we dead lost our ghost n we got put in a coffin

god dam i love this games lore

[ember storm]

Anyone who brings Bastion to SE/Excision deserves to fall in battle tbh

[slim girder]

Couldn't be me in that coffin. I'm not using bastion

[slow berry]

making the sword ergo sum is some incredibly banger writing also

[hard sigil]

I'm trying to compile some notes on every method of time travel available in universe, both "true" time travel and other concepts that are vaguely related. so far I've got the Nine being able to bring things forward, Vex timeline hopping and simulation engines, the Sundial, and Deepsight. I don't know if I'm missing anything

[slow berry]

Elsie's loop, though she's out of it

[ember storm]

For now

[slim girder]

I hope one day we get a proper hive and vex season or expanison. Big eternal stalemate type vibe if both those races ended up colliding with each other and I don't mean like taken vex I mean like hive trying to break into vex strongholds or vex experimenting with worms or something

[frigid sparrow]

Who knows, maybe we'll have the vex that were ferried into the dreaming city try and understand the loop going on there

In attempts to get a more solid grasp of actual time travel

Then again, I would hope that the vex aren't just sidelined to be "the other destination enemy" like they've been for... Uhh pretty much every location they're in lol

Since shattered cycle is almost guaranteed to be focused on savathun

[slim girder]

Sadly bungie kinda wrote themselves into a corner with the vex generally. Like the flood from Halo or Tyranids from Warhammer, they don't exactly have "leaders" or personality and all they have is that goal which they stop at nothing to achieve. Maya has been the only one to give the vex a voice possibly for the first time ever outside of people like Asher mir or captain Jacobson hijacking harpies

[frigid sparrow]

I could see a Quria return in the future

And although they're taken, still have some vex shenanigans

But yeah most dlcs the vex are in just sorta have them doing stuff on the side

BL, lightfall, forsaken, shadowkeep...

Even EoF to an extent since Maya was literally only doing shit in the background

[slim girder]

They're a resident "pest" almost. Like you go out on your morning patrol and you see vex just doing their own thing. Unlike other forces with agendas and plans.

[dim minnow]

At least in Undying the Vex were doing something, but that season never really had the most intricate story

[ember storm]

Ikora having a giant vex apparatus built behind her inside city walls nodding along going "yeah this is cool"

[dim minnow]

I remember seeing a funny picture of someone standing next to her while their name was "thisisabadideaIkora" or something along those lines

[eager trout]

Changing your name just for a joke is dedication

[ember storm]

It was way more forgiving way back when

[gray lagoon]

if the sieve happens after the main storyline y does the drifter talk about the haul and the black hole as if nothing happened

[slow berry]

the nine gave it back to him

they show this on-screen, he talks about it

[gray lagoon]

but he says stuff like "as much as id like to scram i wont" and "u better get there quick"

[river surge]

How can Bungie get rid of something for plot

Sunset

[fresh zephyr]

Will the Black Fleet ever return

Playing Mass Effect again, makes me wish we had more time with the Witness and the Black Fleet. Do you think the Nine plot will have a bigger payoff?

Could honestly see something Vex related happening

[frigid sparrow]

they'll probably be integrated into the lord of every nothing's taken forces

but as of right now anyone they would follow is dead

Kerrev got killed, Fikrul was killed, Oryx was killed, Xivu is a heretic, and the Psion Conclave (Yirix and Otzot) are using what they can get

[slim girder]

Don't think so. We might still see them lurking around as the ships are like the taken and missing someone to guide them.
Maybe now with the witness dead they'll just decide to remain wherever they're stationed and not move be that on a planet or just floating around in space.
And we don't have any reason to investigate them anymore either.

[fresh zephyr]

Is there anyone more powerful than the Witness? I hear people saying Maya, but I can’t see it with the lack of aura she has. Is it possible someone could snatch her Echo?

[frigid sparrow]

power is relative. the witness oversaw the destruction of thousands of planets through its dark forces and nearly saw the end of the known universe through the final shape. maya killed what is essentially a godlike being, and while having expended a lot of energy in doing so, still maintains some power. but the witness left behind a notable gap that has still yet to be filled. it's just a bunch of smaller, weaker threats now.

so far we've eliminated potential threats (Kerrev, Fikrul (and Skolas?), Echo of Navigation) whilst others still remain (Maya, Savathun, The Lord of Every Nothing, Yirix and Otzot, to a lesser extend Levaszk)

[fresh zephyr]

Lord of Every Nothing is the one to watch

[slim girder]

Not at the moment no. Maya has the scope to see a terrible event come to pass but she's not looking to end the universe like the witness was. And the witness wasn't even a person, just a civilisation melded into a single idea

There's still a power vacuum in the universe and we can't forget that the winnower themselves has said they'll be seeing us some day.

[fresh zephyr]

Oh! I thought the Winnower was like neutral

[slim girder]

It is neutral but its view on the way of the universe is one that involves our extinction at some point.

[fresh zephyr]

Sounds like Destiny 3 to me

[slim girder]

It enjoys seeing us struggle and fight constantly as that is its logic. For us to simply prosper and grow without fear of other bigger threats would go against that logic and it would lose that flower game it has with the gardener