📚lore-discussion

[ember storm]

parts of the tree are corrupted toward the bottom there

like what happened over the course of arrivals

[sick yew]

mhm

Yeah it does check out

[ember storm]

the big wall with the guardian symbol and all the hands reaching out is collectively zavala and ikora's

which then leads to his cabin

[sick yew]

Yeah the area around Zavalas place is earth themed with the trees and shit

And then comes the snowy Cosmodrome which relates back to us

And after that is the Witness area

[eager trout]

Why did the Witness look so big when it opened the portal to the Pale Heart but so small here?

[sick yew]

The Travelers actual size shifts around a lot depending on scenes

Also I mean the Witness can change their size

Just compare these two shots

The funniest one by far is the Shadowkeep promo image

Where is bro chilling wth

[empty fern]

Orbiting

[plain sequoia]

Is soteria still aware and like a full ai in hierarchy?

[sick yew]

iirc only a small part of her was saved on the bow

[plain sequoia]

Damn that sucks

Are any warminds that we know of left?

[sick yew]

Well yeah

Sorta

Remember Season of Seraph?

When we visited all those bunkers in the battlegrounds

The subminds in there ig count

Malahayati for example

Well they are subminds only so idk if you count that

[plain sequoia]

I wonder if it would be possible to combine then together

Or atleast have something to look over them

Seeing as the sub minds still have a use

[sick yew]

Thats what we did in Seraph, collect Rasputins subminds to bring back the big red himself

hmmmmm

[hot cypress]

do the awoken have their own language?

[plain sequoia]

I didnt play during seraph but i do know about all the submind stuff

[hot cypress]

considering they have like names like petra venj or mara sov

[sick yew]

Pretty sure their magic chants are in their own language but I dont believe they formed a unique language

[plain sequoia]

So technicaly theres a chance warminds still exist just deactivated or inoperable

[ember storm]

those are just like

human names

[hot cypress]

oh

[sick yew]

The question is whether there even are other "Warminds"

[hot cypress]

i feel stupid

[sick yew]

Depends on your interpretation ig

[ember storm]

they're literally all descendent from normal humans

its not like the original generation completely forgot what they were

[hot cypress]

i mean yeah but i thought that maybe they would forget or something

[plain sequoia]

Some did

The leap or black hole they fell into im
Pretty sure cause alot of stuff to happen

[hot cypress]

so they only have a language only for magic chants but not for speaking in general

[sick yew]

The speak normal English for conversation yeah

[hot cypress]

i thought that was only ingame for gameplay reasons

[sick yew]

Again why would it
They were all ordinary humans before the collapse

[plain sequoia]

If i recall they did have their own language when they where in the pocket universe or whatever

[sick yew]

Where would that language come from

[hot cypress]

probably evolved from english?

or someplace else?

[ember storm]

mara spoke english

[plain sequoia]

Well the awoken had a dedicated translator for a reason

[sick yew]

No real reason to
Maybe they had their own slang and shit but that'd be about it

[ember storm]

they were on a normal exodus ship

so like

pobably about what you'd expect

[plain sequoia]

Yes but said ship fell into a wormhole or whatnot

[ember storm]

again that doesnt make them new people

they did not start from literal scratch as a new species altogether

they retained knowledge and such

they didnt have to invent a new language on the spot

[sick yew]

The Neomuni don't have their own language either and they've been to themselves for a long while too

[chrome fog]

Well wait weren't they compiled into the remnants of Rasputin that survived teh retribution of the Pyramid ships in order to for him to reform into a funcitonal state?

[ember storm]

subminds werent at a warmind level at all

[hot cypress]

well they were kinda isolated from humanity for quite some time, not saying it did happen but i guess i kinda expected them to change a bit at least culturally

[ember storm]

at most they'd be comparable to like arcite or failsafe maybe

[sick yew]

Yeah that's what I touched on like two messages after that

It depends on one's definition of a warmind

[chrome fog]

Oh I misread that part then

[ember storm]

rasputin is THE warmind

[chrome fog]

No I know this Waltz

I just was contesting the subminds' continued existence

[ember storm]

subminds were made as a retcon to other warminds existing

[sick yew]

If you take Raspy as the baseline there straight up just aren't any other Warminds but if you included ones that functioned on their own, submind or not the list widens

[ember storm]

nah we specifically salvage them in the heist battlegrounds

they're essentially taken apart to rebuild rasputin

[chrome fog]

YES THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN SAID

[ember storm]

i should say more

[sick yew]

Except the one on Europa prob cause Clovis Ai would have gone down the drain in that case

[ember storm]

that wasn't a submind

[chrome fog]

I swear I feel my grasp on reality wanes the more time I spend conversing on Discord

[sick yew]

We still cleared out the place to get some data for big red

I do hope we get to do shit with Clovis Ai again
Cause I'll be sure to unplug his ass once and for all

Bla bla he's not a threat he's just ignoring us KILL HIM, KILL HIM FUCKING RIGHT NOW

[chrome fog]

A sledgehammer stRAIGHT TO ONE OF HIS EYES

He stays alive solely to suffer now

[sick yew]

Download his ai matrix directly into my Parasite so I can switch between launching savathuns worm and Clovis' dumbass at my enemies

Put him onto an USB and hastily start putting it in and out of a computer so he slowly but surely dies along with the hardware

I had hopes we would get him as a DSC themed dungeon boss but since that turned out to be Vespers Host....

[ember storm]

Load him into a potato battery, a toy for children

Make him live in it

Just before it rots away you put him into a fresh one

Rinse and repeat, while forcing him to spectate freelance trials matches

[tough badge]

so who has this new echo? i thought that augmentor (whatever the name is) was the guy with it

[chrome fog]

Connect Failsafe directly into his framework so that 1) Failsafe gets to escape her painful wreckage of a body and 2) let’s Clovis suffer

[chrome fog]

No one, as far as I know, it controls itself and is an Echo of Oryx, who himself was once titled the Navigator; thus, Echo of Navigation

[eager trout]

Watching clips from Red War and Forsaken helps me understand why people like Cayde so much.

[empty fern]

But does anyone remember cayde in d1
The goof

[chrome fog]

Stealing Eris’ ship was the funniest thing

[trim grotto]

Borrowing it.

...To destruction.

[low gyro]

I wonder if Clovis would laugh at the primitiveness of a USB port

[low gyro]

I remember people complaining that cayde from red war was flanderized MCU style, no?

[bleak crow]

So if we’re talking in lore

what the fuck are engrams for?

like are for like storing guns and stuff?

I always imagined they were some kind of a storage system

[jagged badge]

Basically yeah

Data and even physical items can be stored and engrammised

[ember storm]

they're zip files that can work on physical objects

[bleak crow]

That’s pretty epic

[torpid flint]

Ya know, the best way to kill a guardian would be a nuke yellow engram. An actual nuke btw

[ember storm]

you could also just like

shoot them

usually works

[torpid flint]

Most times, yes. But for those more extreme scenarios, nuke engrams

I'm guessing they have a limit, considering we don't have nuke engrams or other more powerful weapons. I'm guessing engrams can't store some types of materials?

Or has an upper limit on mass?

[low gyro]

They're probably like Dragon Ball capsules or something

[chrome fog]

You get a space ship in some of them (maybe)

[next bobcat]

Hey bro

Play grasp of avarice

It’ll blow your freaking mind

[dim minnow]

the riches in GoA weren't exactly bombs

they did explode, but it was only if they were left on the ground for too long

and they didn't even damage you

though they do kill you via withdrawal

a better comparison would be the Trickster from back in Forsakem

you were able to pick up explosive Exotic engrams and throw them to destroy things

[plain sequoia]

I wonder if luzaku will play a roll in the future

You cant drop a bomb shell of which a hive lightbearer turns to aid us and just not have me obsess over it

Same goes with her and fynch ever meeting

My boy fynch has been forgotten

[torpid flint]

Good pun. But the reason i don't mention those is they aren't really WMDs. Good way to punish selfish guardians, yes. But WMDs they are not

[eager trout]

Could Toland be controlling the Taken?

[eager trout]

Who was the Trickster?

[slim girder]

No. He doesn't have that kind of influence.

[slim girder]

A scorn baron

Made fake exotic engrams that acted like bombs

[sleek matrix]

Enough power to carve paths that the winnower should?

No chance

Its more than likely a new entity

We have never heard or seen

[chrome fog]

Toland is considerably pathetic despite his efforts to become integrated into the system of the Sword Logic as he has no body, all that’s left is his soul which is the tiny light you’re familiar with him being

[slim girder]

He has a small piece of land which is a pinprick compared to the massive throne worlds of other beings

[sleek matrix]

10 years since we refused the throne there always has to be a taken king

[slim girder]

This new entity might be stepping up to it. But honestly my thoughts are that this entity doesn't really care about the title instead just wants the power that comes with controlling the taken, no sword logic or honouring oryxs wishes or anything

It's shown already that it can create taken even.

[sleek matrix]

It also the fact the taken have been praying for a new master

They want it and the ascendant plane has different rules and laws

If there is enough will its possible

The inversion anchors the tentacles and the dire taken is all because of this new entity

[slim girder]

We have no clue. If I had to guess the finale of act 2 will give us our first peek or at least some kind of clue as to what is going on in the background..

[sleek matrix]

This is actually the first time we have no clue at all

Usually when theres a big entity we have more to go off

[slim girder]

I know.
We just know something is....

There

But nothing more

[sleek matrix]

Its actually good we dont know anything

[slim girder]

Mhm and this is supposed to be the prologue to frontiers where we'll see our new purpose and focus in the story.

[chrome fog]

As fun as something that's potentially at a level to intervene with the Winnower's plans, I do hope we get a bunch of other villains/enemies that are just Some Guys and not another Pantheon to topple

I am wholly for starving out powerscalers

[olive juniper]

LMAOO

ONE

HO

HP

HOWWW

[blazing wasp]

the lore of atheon?

[olive juniper]

yes

[blazing wasp]

do you want the long or short version

[olive juniper]

short

[blazing wasp]

Scientist feller who is able to converge timelines and mess around with them, making them be able to retroactively erase someone from time, only works inside the vault and they are trying to make that not the case

[olive juniper]

ohh

so that’s why…

[chrome fog]

I have some notes but that's kinda correct

[olive juniper]

share here

I know that kabr sacrificed his life for the shield

relic

[blazing wasp]

its a very short version

[chrome fog]

Atheon's more like the CPU or whatever computer part is in charge of telling the rest of the computer to do stuff, and all the Vex within and the Vault of Glass itself are connected to connect to Atheon via the Vex Network

[olive juniper]

and the warlock died

[chrome fog]

The Vault itself was a specific portion of the Vex Network that was dedicated to editing the timeline of the space it occupied, and their goal was to continue expanding so that eventually it would overtake the universe and then the Vex could edit the reality within to always have been taken over by the Vex

It's also important to note that this is not something inherently possible to Vex, the VoG utilizes some of the Paracausality generated by the Black Heart in the Black Garden (a whole other mess to explain)

Vex without any sort of paracausal can only create simulations and trap you within it (probably not actually open up alternate timelines but also who knows)

This is honestly the best demonstration of what the Vex could do without being empowered with Paracausality (ignoring that this is outside of the Destiny universe; still a good example I think)
https://youtu.be/ylH8HZSNYvA?si=x6BVlsTvuJcSOdkF

(Also ignore the russian it was the only clip I could find that was long enough and gave enough explanation to really demonstrate the point)

[empty fern]

Lmaoooo

Russian atheon lore

[chrome fog]

Overall with the Vex, it's very weird trying to extrapolate the potentcy of their abilities regarding timelines because, theoretically, you can do time travel via conventional means if you can survive the physical strain going past the speed of light (if it is at all possible) and they have demonstrated the ability to have portals that translocate individuals across long distances, which is equally theoretical as Time Travel, but. Just.

It's all weird

And also who's to say how much of their bigger projects are utilizing the Paracausality from the Black Garden, allowing them to bypass some of the limitations of conventional physics?

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Always assume any Vex nonsense is being amplified with some paracausality

[slim elk]

The mechanics of time travel in Destiny not being exactly clear doesn't help matters either

[chrome fog]

Yes. Because the only ones doing Time Travel is the Vex and Elsie somehow

[ember storm]

Long story short, vex aren’t fully capable of comprehending paracausal power and replicating it from scratch, but if they have a source at their disposal they’ll exploit it as much as they can

the sundial was powered by a seed of silver wings, iirc? or maybe I’m wrong

All I remember is drifter saying it whispered

[chrome fog]

Yes, specifically Drifter was involved with its construction

[ember storm]

Unless we get an explanation on Elsie’s Groundhog Day we’ll probably never know for sure

Which is something I’m ok with tbh

[slim elk]

Don't forget we also apparently did a stable time loop with Saint

[chrome fog]

Oh hey neat maybe accidental prior association of Darkness with 'Memory of a place as it used to be' before Witch Queen

[ember storm]

The moment you definitively explain how time travel works in its entirety is when shit hits the fan

[chrome fog]

That'd still fall into Vex weirdness

I think

[slim elk]

Paracausal shotgun antics lay ahead

[ember storm]

It was specifically because all the relevant events were on Mercury with the sundial and infinite forest yeah

[chrome fog]

Does the Infinite Forest use any paracausality like VoG in any way?

[ember storm]

We were never at risk of the red legion genuinely rewriting history to make themselves the victors, but their repeated attempts was just destroying the fabric of reality itself

[chrome fog]

Neat, also fuck

[slim elk]

From my memory? Nope. Just brute forcing predictions through all the simulations

[ember storm]

The infinite forest is just the vex putting all their simulation eggs into one very big basket

They just devoted one of the most powerful minds exclusively to running simulations

[chrome fog]

eeeuuugghhh

[slim elk]

Osiris caused the issue with the Sundial just by leaving a genuine time travel machine laying around

[ember storm]

I find it funny that the plot of Dawn wouldn’t have ever happened if Osiris just like

Filled out the paperwork to have it decommissioned

Sent a team with some cranes and shit

[chrome fog]

Oh! If that's the case then bam! Continuity with Parcausal bullshit being involved with any genuine impact the Vex simulations have on reality

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/happy-birthday-gif-24132029

[slim elk]

Osiris caused a lot of problems because he was too lazy to clean up after himself

Even back in Curse a whole strike was because he couldn't help himself from resurrecting a Vex Mind we killed lol

[ember storm]

Mf never heard of a kill switch smh

[slim elk]

It was pretty telling to me Osiris couldn't figure out a basic "connect the dots" investigation with us

Saint saw us on Mercury and predicted us offing Crota among other things..
But apparently Osiris never bothered to ask how we pulled the Mercury stunt

[sleek matrix]

Well i guess that is it for act 2

[chrome fog]

Yeah

[hazy veldt]

panoptes my beloved

[empty fern]

Panoptes got the crota treatment

[dapper moss]

panoptes got crotered

croted

[hazy veldt]

they need to bring back mercury ong

[chrome fog]

Woe upon you, seasonal destination

(I am totally for this cause it really was a tiny space even compared to the other 3 that got removed post-Arrivals)

[oak dawn]

Is it just me who feels like we are throwing our weight around as the guardian

Like genuinely what was the reason behind what we did in today's story

[blazing wasp]

Insurance if resistance is met

[jagged badge]

What does that mean?

[chrome fog]

Ok now I need to play this Act when I get time tomorrow

[oak dawn]

I feel like we are just doing stuff as the guardian for the sake of doing it

[oak dawn]

Against Xivu, sure. Savathun just wants her brother back

[blazing wasp]

which is really bad for us

we're here to make sure the ritual actually wont get fucked over

and we were indeed needed for that

we're consistent, reliable, adaptive

[oak dawn]

How is Savathun getting her brother back a bad thing?

[blazing wasp]

cause savathun is an active existential threat

[empty fern]

Oryx’s faith wavers

[jagged badge]

Savathûn is not our friend, and the Echo is a source of immense power

[blazing wasp]

savathun has her own interests in mind, at our benefit or our cost she does not give a rats ass

generally, its been at our cost.

in our benefit... once?

[oak dawn]

She may not be a friend but she isn't inherently an enemy in my eyes either. Of course she has her own interests in mind, the same way WE do.

[blazing wasp]

the difference is that her interest do not care about our well being, and often our demise is what furthers her goals

she tried to perform a genocide by proxy on us at least once

she even gloated about it to our face, and tried to gaslight us that its the right thing to do

[oak dawn]

Was that before or after learning about their history with the witness

[blazing wasp]

both

she learnt of the witness thing mid combat, threw a hissy fit, continued to attempt a full blown genocide on all of humanity and everyone within sol

this isnt even mentioning psychological warfare on the entirety of the last city (season of the splicer)

bodysnatching a high standing member of the tower (osiris) and using him to infiltrate and sabotage

[oak dawn]

I mean the fit is understandable. Found out that thousands of years of their lives has been a lie, that they were destined for greatness and were robbed of it

[blazing wasp]

yes but i think thats something that was brushed off by many because if we didnt stop her there, we were dead

[oak dawn]

It it a guaranteed fact that had she taken the traveler, we all would've died?

[blazing wasp]

earth would be utterly defenceless, the witness would swoop in and kill us
and the witness does not kill civilizations blessed by the traveler swiftly, it intentionally prolongs their suffering

[oak dawn]

Hell even the traveler seemed pretty content with going along with her

[blazing wasp]

How in the fresh bell air of prince fuck would we even defend against the witness without the light

cause if the ritual concluded, thats what would happen to us

[blazing wasp]

Misconception, intentionally made during the witch queen by savathun

by implying that the traveler gave savathun the light for one

[oak dawn]

Did it not? Did we all not watch the cutscene of imaru floating down to her?

[blazing wasp]

the traveler has never directly revived anyone, ghosts did, she doesnt controll ghosts

she doesnt act, its her whole thing

she acts if people "break the rules", like taking the light (ghaul, implied to with rhulk too)

[oak dawn]

But then that contradicts the whole "If the ritual happened, we would've lost the light"

Would she have not stopped that? If that's what was happened?

[blazing wasp]

the traveler actually fucked off the very instant she was allowed to

additionally, savathun wasnt stealing the light

not really "breaking the rules" here

she was just trapping her

when we got to the throne world in the final mission, the traveler was already in "chains"

[oak dawn]

No but do we know for a fact that had the traveler been brought into the thrones world it would've taken our light

Like flat out stated

Or is it just assumption

[sleek matrix]

Yes

It would of cut us off

[blazing wasp]

not if she was brought into it, but if she was sealed, we can make a educated guess thats as reasonable as "the hive are probably not good people"

[sleek matrix]

Thats why we had to stop it

[blazing wasp]

lemme explain: ghosts act like bridges between a guardian, and the traveler

[oak dawn]

I know that

[blazing wasp]

if the tie from ghost to traveler is cut, light is lost

same with ghost to guardian

trapping the traveler in the throne world, and sealing the throne world off with zero entrances, the ghost-traveler thing is cut off

it'd be reopened again probably if the witness breaches the throne world going after the traveler but

by then, its too late.

[chrome fog]

I think it's more she sees us as an existential threat and thus it would be in her better interest to find a back-up plan eliminate us should the need arise

[oak dawn]

Thats true

[blazing wasp]

Oh she absolutely does so too

[chrome fog]

However it's still more useful to direct us towards her problems and make them our own

[blazing wasp]

its a two way street

if we leave her be, she will abuse it

likely to our own detriment

we cant really go into direct war with her either, since we dont need to

[chrome fog]

Should we directly face her we are more likely to play into her hands and less likely to eliminate her; not to mention she is to an extent reigning in the Lucent Hive

[blazing wasp]

a cold war is the best strategy for now

[oak dawn]

We learned that the hive were lied to and still treated them like hostile forces. We've has our guardians go out and slaughter people just for following after the traveler (the eliksni)

[strong tendon]

Drifters little dialogue about savathun sounds more like it’s teasing her having a role later on than it does this episode which is exciting because she’s cold af

[oak dawn]

Like we aren't all good either

[chrome fog]

Yea we're the Best Jobber around, the Grunt to out Grunt them all

[blazing wasp]

oh no we commited like... let me think

4 acts of genocide?

[oak dawn]

So I wanna know why we feel as if we have the right to play sheriff when we don't even act right

[sleek matrix]

I think it means the next act

[oak dawn]

Doesn't make sense to me and that's why I feel it isn't our place to determine who needs to be stopped

[blazing wasp]

we dont have that right, we dont go around playing goody two shoes, because we cannot afford to

[oak dawn]

WE need to be humbled if anything

[chrome fog]

This would be more a case of individuals acting against the orders of the Vanguard in regards to any actions against House Light

[oak dawn]

And I hope that humbling comes soon

[blazing wasp]

we're fighting gods, eldritch monsters and worse on a nigh' daily basis

we dont consider ourselves good

[strong tendon]

Next act is gonna be so weird. A strike as the main seasonal activity is gonna be interesting

[blazing wasp]

we're not the "good guys", we're guys trying to survive

[chrome fog]

We lost Targe and almost lost all of existence, I think we've gone through enough hell

[oak dawn]

Not enough

[chrome fog]

Bruh

[oak dawn]

Our ghost should've stayed dead at the end of the final shape if you want my opinion

[blazing wasp]

we lost one of our closest friends, just about every single one of our friends has been through severe psychological traume to varying degrees

[blazing wasp]

bad idea narratively and financially

[ember storm]

So what

Next time you wipe in a nf your character gets deleted

[chrome fog]

Like we're not imposing anything onto anyone save for restrictions that prevent our immediate extinction, I don't think we've made any moves to imperialize anywehre

[sleek matrix]

Our ghost being dead means the game ends

[blazing wasp]

its the worst corner possible to write yourself into

[oak dawn]

And yet we still go around playing judge jury and executioner against other races

[chrome fog]

We're at a good neutral spot

[blazing wasp]

not because we believe thats our right

[sleek matrix]

They came to sol first

[chrome fog]

Like

[blazing wasp]

or that we're in the right

[sleek matrix]

??

[chrome fog]

What do you want

[sleek matrix]

We were here first

[blazing wasp]

its because those races are actively seeking our annihilation

they want us dead, or worse

[sleek matrix]

Yes

[blazing wasp]

its not good vs evil, its survival, we want to live

[sleek matrix]

Its be killed or kill them back

There is no right or wrong

[blazing wasp]

and our enemies are not blunt that they want us dead, given the chance they will kill us

we've had one exception to this i can know of, where a combatant was not seeking the end of humanity

[chrome fog]

And in addition, we've taken Olive Branches extended out to us when there's no reasonable chance of betrayal

[blazing wasp]

the first half of the first WQ mission

[chrome fog]

Like House Light, and the Cabal Ascendency

[sleek matrix]

Caiatl mistraks

[blazing wasp]

we're not needlessly brutal and hostile, yeah

[oak dawn]

Eliskni were abandoned by their god and when they sought after it to understand why we sent saint after them, who btw slaughtered innocents and guilty alike

[chrome fog]

Savathun to an extent, but we have more a cold war

[blazing wasp]

We didnt send saint after them first of all

[sleek matrix]

They were killing babies too

[chrome fog]

.... This is such an awful misreading of the situation

[blazing wasp]

additionally you can literally use this exact same argument to justify saints killing of fallen civilians.

[sleek matrix]

Ur mis reading the fallen war for sure

[blazing wasp]

which is not good reasoning, i want to add

[sleek matrix]

They followed the traveler to sol

[chrome fog]

They burned down all of London

[blazing wasp]

saint was very much in the wrong

but the reason for it is understandable at the time

[sleek matrix]

The fallen were war mongering

[oak dawn]

Nothing of value was lost

In all seriousness tho

[blazing wasp]

a group of people just waltz up to your only bastion of life and they try to breach your walls and slaughter your entire people

you dont know why they're here

[chrome fog]

Ah yes, the incineration of an entire city of people. We should not retribute in any way to this attack.

[blazing wasp]

they never bothered with an explanation, or peace talks

[sleek matrix]

We will strike down anyone who opposes us

[blazing wasp]

and they almost got in

[sleek matrix]

Its just that simple

[oak dawn]

Ah yes

Very good argument

[sleek matrix]

And it doesn't matter if its right

[blazing wasp]

so, scared this will repeat itself, you have the power to embark and completely break these people to never even try to do that again

[chrome fog]

This is technically right but not the right intonation

[blazing wasp]

and so, you do

[sleek matrix]

Not when it comes to survival

[oak dawn]

Looool

[chrome fog]

We will defend ourselves but that would require resonable threat be taken against us

[sleek matrix]

You think oryx would hesitate?

[blazing wasp]

saint ended up being in the wrong, but given his situation and the context he had? most would've done the same

[sleek matrix]

Hell nah

Ppl when they see character development

[blazing wasp]

the eliksni arent allowed to kill off humanity because the traveler fled, trying to divert the witness' forces

[sleek matrix]

[blazing wasp]

even if they were, nobody really knew about this at the time

[ember storm]

Oh boy what Eliksni do we in fact fight in game

[sleek matrix]

And its not like its our fault the traveler left them

[ember storm]

I wonder what house salvation is up to

Surely it’s entirely altruistic

[blazing wasp]

also yeah we're not exactly fighting against saints either

the nicest people we've fought against are house dusk

[ember storm]

Judge jury executioner implies we’re running around like the punisher in established communities

All of our patrol zones are literally war zones

[sleek matrix]

Its past martial law

Like way past

[blazing wasp]

aye, d2 and d1 takes place in a multi-century old war

[ember storm]

What innocent civilians are running around on the moon exactly

[sleek matrix]

The poor thrall

[ember storm]

In actuality I think killing hive is morally correct

[sleek matrix]

The sword logic?

[chrome fog]

Going back to this original question, we are acting to collect this Echo and fend off both Hive and Taken forces because neither of these enemies have any understanding of "peace" as they in their different ways are directed towards unabashed violence

[blazing wasp]

i mean its morally correct in their eyes too.

[chrome fog]

The love language of the Hive is Killing Each Other

[oak dawn]

Interesting

[blazing wasp]

seriously killing hive is the least morally questionable thing

which sounds really weird

but it is correct

[sleek matrix]

They have killed so many species

[ember storm]

This means thanatonauts really love themselves

[sleek matrix]

Its not even funny

[oak dawn]

Didn't someone sat we committed 4 genocides

[ember storm]

They’re the pinnacle of mental health and positivity

[oak dawn]

Wr aren't ones to judge

[ember storm]

It is factually incorrect

We have only committed one

And Rhulk killed literally everyone else on his planet

[nimble cloud]

Taking down hive leadership?

[ember storm]

So we are the good guys

[sleek matrix]

And the hive have committed billions of genocides

It doesnt compare imo

[ember storm]

We have only committed literal genocide on one individual in particular

[sleek matrix]

No where near

[ember storm]

Rhulk of lubrae

[blazing wasp]

i say this in the definition of "attempted", going by humanity as a whole, and highballing the number

[ember storm]

All lubraens are now dead

[sleek matrix]

[nimble cloud]

So are the hive the biggest killers?

[ember storm]

And I am happy about it

[sleek matrix]

Yes

[oak dawn]

^

[blazing wasp]

and the source for most of this being like

one or two statements

like sloane saying "i'll be here when the hive are extinct"

[sleek matrix]

[ember storm]

Your face is extinct

[blazing wasp]

i was severely stretching it

[blazing wasp]

No its just ugly.

[oak dawn]

Noted

[ember storm]

[blazing wasp]

the only arguable attempt we have of a genocide is maybe the scorn?

[ember storm]

Why are you ignoring Rhulk

[sleek matrix]

The scorn are technically already dead

So it doesn't count

[ember storm]

He is literally the only actual act of genocide we’ve committed

[blazing wasp]

oh

[ember storm]

Riven doesn’t count anymore since all her children are still alive

[blazing wasp]

ooh

right

true

[chrome fog]

We only did 1 for the sole reason that for anyone to speak their wish to an Ahamkara, it would potentially risk the entirety of our existence

And for good reason as no Ahamkara should ever be trusted to uphold the exact spirit of the wish, they will always try to do a Monkey's Paw and fuck over the wisher

Taranis was the only exception, which even moreso speaks to the danger of reality-shaping devil dragons that actively want to harm you freely roaming around

The elimination of any Eliksni Houses or brood of Hive would not count towards these supposed "genocides" commited by the Guardians, as these are literal enemy factions who were conspiring to do us harm

[blazing wasp]

telling a wish dragon to not do a monkey paw is like telling a cat not to eat food, ever

[chrome fog]

Again, to reiterate, We have not unjustly imposed any sort of rule or sovereignty over any other species save for the Ahamkaras, and in their case it was reasonable to make an exception as our safety could be easily and drastically compromised solely on their own whims irregardless of who's wish they grant

We still only have our one city, the Last City

Any human establishments off of Earth and even some on Earth are nigh derelict and abandoned, save for one which had been hiding from the rest of the universe since the total Collapse of Human Society as the other species invaded the solar system and began attacking us solely because we had benefitted from the Traveler (a bit oversimplified but the majority of the other species' attraction to our little corner of the universe hinges solely on the presence of the Traveler with us)

Keep in mind as well, that society had basically regressed from a society that had guns which shot miniature blackholes, people that lived up to 3 centuries, and could convert Solar Energy in Solar Light to a feudal state wherein Warlords held ownership of land and property by force, in which a majority of the mortals still remaining struggled severely to get by

[slow berry]

dont ahamkara literally feed off of the separation between the desire and the wish granted

[chrome fog]

Yes

Exactly that

Which is why they'd absolutely fuck you over in any way possible or extremity

[ember storm]

They would fuck with things regardless

[strong tendon]

So what’s the rest of the episode about? Stopping xivu and savathun from getting the echo and killing the subjugator?

[hazy veldt]

WE GOT DRAGONS ON VENUS?????????

[trim grotto]

Batadactyls

Funny lizard bird things

[rapid girder]

so we do know that stasis isn’t ice… but is it at least cold?

[ember storm]

It is the total absence of heat, the forcing of your will onto physical reality and asserting total control

It is not cold, but it is the exact opposite of moving energy and heat

[empty fern]

So yes, it’s a little unhot

[agile panther]

Dry ice lmao

[eager trout]

Absence of heat is cold

Stasis is likely the true absolute zero

[chrome fog]

Yet any descriptors of the physical sensation of Stasis lack such a description

Or at least I think

I remember debates on this during Beyond Light but don't remember enough if it's established that Stasis is, indeed, cold

[mellow current]

What is the radial mast?

[empty fern]

It’s the radial mast

[dim minnow]

a relic possibly from the time of the Witness' precursors

[slim girder]

Stasis is cold. But just from the absence of movement. To be frozen in stasis is to have even the atoms in your body stopped or as the name suggests, put into a stasis

Truly still.

[chrome fog]

Still remember some entry where an individual in-universe comments on how Not Cold Stasis is, and that it's possible due to Stasis moreso formatting molecules of a specified region into a crystalline structure that would mimic a state of Absolue Zero only in reference to within that specified area

Localized Absolute Zero, which technically speaking shouldn't be possible as it would create a vacuum of heat energy which it would then take in from its surroundings and rob everything of any form of kinetic energy but as this is Paracausality it is just taking molecules and making them uniform

So, technically speaking, it would be about as cold as a countertop or a piece of quartz or any other type of crystal and not necessarily be cold itself

Theoretically

Again, been a while

Like, before VintageNuke got banned from the discord and those of us in here were discussing Stasis' nature

[mellow current]

yea just that its not frozen water

[chrome fog]

Other things can be cold

But Stasis itself might not be despite the obvious association

This post from the pins should succinctly finalize any sort of discussion on it
https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/tb1svc/an_updated_analysis_of_stasis

[slim girder]

It doesn't have to be water to be cold .

[mellow current]

i meant that stasis is not ice

[slim girder]

I never said it was ice. It's just a cold crystal which is the by product of there being absolutely no movement on the molecular level

[mellow current]

I realise thats already established my bad

[blazing wasp]

It's technically not "cold"

In the traditional sense it absolutely isn't cold

It doesn't remove or distribute heat elsewhere

It temporarily halts it

Puts it in stasis

Put a hot chicken in stasis, it "thaws" still hot

(also works as a lore explanation for balancing, if it literally put something that cold, it'd one shot everything)

[fresh zephyr]

What is this structure in the Pale Heart? What's its use and name in the lore? Did it appear in the game at some point?

[dim minnow]

I think this is the area you go through in Iconoclasm

the circular section looks to be the ritual site, where we fight the Witness

[fresh zephyr]

Ah. Makes sense

[dim minnow]

ingame the area seems to be referred to as "The Sacrarium"

Sacrarium being a sanctuary in a church

[empty fern]

Enough reason to post dreadnaught d1 map :3

[bleak crow]

how many speakers were there? Was there only one? I remember hearing from somewhere that they were like 3 speakers or more but only one could actually talk to the traveler

[sick yew]

Nah there were a few of them over the many years

I dont think we know of an exact number

[bleak crow]

So kinda like a pope?

[sick yew]

Sorta yeah

[bleak crow]

[sick yew]

Their credibility is sometimes called into question since they merely received dreams from the traveler like so many others in the same usually rather cryptic manner

[bleak crow]

Were they not guardians?

[sick yew]

No

I dont think there was ever a guardian who was a Speaker

At least the late one wasnt that I know for sure

[bleak crow]

That’s weird ngl, like why speak through dreams to someone who isn’t a guardian

[bleak crow]

Yeah cuz he got his shit rocked

[sick yew]

The Traveler cares about all life, not just Guardians

Hell it even gave dreams to objectively awful people such as Clovis Bray which he in turn gravely misinterpreted and just made things even worse

[bleak crow]

I love how his last words were basically telling ghaul to guardian down himself

[sick yew]

That werent his last words

[sleek matrix]

The traveler has up lifted many civilisations

[sick yew]

His last words were "I speak for the Traveler, I never said it spoke to me"

[sleek matrix]

How they interpreted that is on them

The traveler being a god or seeking a higher purpose

[bleak crow]

Didn’t he insult ghaul tho?

[sick yew]

Yes

When Ghaul asked how to become a guardian the speaker replied in the guardian tenets

[sleek matrix]

Savathun getting the light too

[sick yew]

Yeah?

[sleek matrix]

She took the worm out and was about to die

[sick yew]

The Traveler didnt really play a part in that tbf

At least not in the moment

[bleak crow]

Didn’t it revive her tho?

[sick yew]

Ghosts have theoretically always been able to resurrect hive

[sleek matrix]

Yea but she did look at the traveler for salvation

[sick yew]

From the very beginning

[sleek matrix]

I would say the traveler didnt directly help her

But it knew what was gonna happen

[sick yew]

It just took until Savathuns resurrection for that truth to emerge

[sleek matrix]

The light cant be taken it can only be given

Rulk tried

[sick yew]

Well the Witness was able to take the light in essence but yes

[bleak crow]

I still find it stupid that we tried to stop Savathûn from stealing the traveler, like I understand we didn’t know at the time, but didn’t she try to protect it from the witness?

[sleek matrix]

By going inside the traveler

[sleek matrix]

Yes but it would of cut us off

We had no choice

[bleak crow]

Oh yeah

[sleek matrix]

But also

[sick yew]

In all honesty I dont see how that would have helped anyway
The Witness definitely has means to invade a throne world, its far too powerful

Even the damn scorn got in

[sleek matrix]

Witness could invade the throne world

[bleak crow]

still think witch queen is the best campaign in recent years (fight me)

[sleek matrix]

And rulk was still alive at the time to

[sick yew]

I will, I enjoyed Lightfall more

[bleak crow]

nightfall is just strand dlc lets be honest

lightfall*

[sleek matrix]

Lightfall had more content but wq story was way better

[bleak crow]

Agreed

[sick yew]

Its a personal preference
I liked Lightfalls theme and art direction tons more than WQ's

[sleek matrix]

It really depends on what you value

[bleak crow]

strand is still the best subclass when it comes to just fucking around

[sick yew]

Im more into scifi than fantasy

I also just didnt really like most of WQ's writing
I think both Ikora and Fynch fell rather flat for me

[sleek matrix]

Savathun ghost was a better character

Than fynch

Imaru is

[sick yew]

We didnt get jack shit of Imaru in the actual campaign tho

[sleek matrix]

Yea

[sick yew]

All he did was announce public events and patrols and shit

[sleek matrix]

The focus was wq

But after

When she died

Overtime we got more

[sick yew]

He just looked like he was about to cry and then bailed

[sleek matrix]

It was part of the plan

[sick yew]

I also really dont like the swamp patrol zone, Savathuns castle type area was quite pretty but eh
I understand why people like WQ dont get me wrong but it just wasnt for me

[sick yew]

Also where do you rank Final Shape if I may ask

[bleak crow]

Not better then which queen but better the final shape

because cayde

and still hunt

fight me

[sick yew]

Nah, to each their own

In my humble opinion FS showed that Bungie has truly grown in terms of writing because they wrote Cayde so incredibly well

[bleak crow]

Sorry I mean better then lightfall

[sick yew]

Yeah but better than WQ?

[bleak crow]

nah

[sick yew]

I see

[bleak crow]

wq still peak

it’s the only campaign I’ve ever done flawless

on legendary

[ember storm]

beyond light fall keep shadow forsake curse of mind ris king iron

[bleak crow]

Forsaken was goated

only reason I’m not saying it’s better then witch queen is because you can’t play forsaken anymore

[sick yew]

House of Wolves?

Smh

[bleak crow]

What was house of wolves

[sick yew]

I think Forsaken was one of the most poorly integrated campaigns in destiny history

From a story perspective it was very solid but the gameplay was the biggest snoozefest since the Ghaul bossfight in Red War

[sick yew]

Yes, that was the stronges mission in the entire campaign

[bleak crow]

I cried during it ngl

[sick yew]

The rest was just glorified adventures in which you walk in, shoot the big boss, go out and repeat until you reach the fight against Fikrul

[bleak crow]

Or I wouldn’t say cry

[sick yew]

None of the barons got even the slightest bit of character development despite all having unique personalities and I fucking hated every second of it

[bleak crow]

it was mostly teared up, i don’t think I’ve ever actually cried during a video game cutscene, closest I’ve ever been was Reuben from minecraft story mode

[ember storm]

less than a seasons worth of content tbh

prison of elders was literally the only good part

[sick yew]

Also your ghost constantly going all "uuUUuuH but is it actually right what were doing??!1 What if vengeance is the wrong path?1ß1ß!"

[ember storm]

but pretending for a SECOND that skolas' revenge was a good alternative to a raid

it was shit

[bleak crow]

“Shut up Nolan north”

“Let me beat the fuck out of a tentacle meatball”

[ember storm]

i mean it was mostly the fact the guardian was directly disobeying orders to specifically just go kill someone we didnt like

the lore tab of the ghost making a list of things he wish he could say to you is genuinely heartbreaking

[sick yew]

Maybe but the moral question wasnt set up properly at all

Uldren was clearly the bad guy and we had no reason not to try and kill him

[ember storm]

it wasn't about the morality of killing the scorn or uldren

[bleak crow]

maybe shadowkeep was the depression we made along the way

[ember storm]

it was specifically "what if this just sets a new precedent"

[sick yew]

Mhm "loretab"

Where was that shit ingame?

Thats what I am talking about
Forsaken had great lore and none of it you actually got to experience

[frigid sparrow]

in the lore tab in game

[ember storm]

fuck you want me to do about it

[sick yew]

Fix it Waltz

[ember storm]

true

[sick yew]

Hop in the delorean and go the hell back

[bleak crow]

Real as fuck

[sick yew]

Which half of the players dont even know exists

Forsaken could have been so much greater

[ember storm]

they simply need to reiusse the tangled shore weapons

[frigid sparrow]

Sagira's death is way way worse in that regard

[ember storm]

all would be solved

[bleak crow]

Also what are those lines on the traveler? Is that just the way it looks? Or are those scars

[ember storm]

just the way it looks

they're perfectly circular on all sides

[sick yew]

That doesnt impact my view on the forsaken campaigns poor ingame narrative in the slightest

Just cause theres worse doesnt mean the already bad is better

[ember storm]

oh no yeah the campaign fucking sucked aside from the 1st and last missions

[bleak crow]

Shadowkeep was the worst one in my opinion

[sick yew]

Theyre just there

[bleak crow]

shadowkeep was dog shit

[ember storm]

it was not a fun experience going after the fucking koopalings

[bleak crow]

Only because of they fact you needed an entire set of armor to do it

[sick yew]

It could have been had they actually given them a god damn personality prior to the mission in which we blast their ass

[ember storm]

destiny 2 forsaken

[bleak crow]

“Fucking Koopalings” 😭😭🙏

😭😭🙏🙏

[sick yew]

The Koopalings had more personality expressed through their design and gameplay without a single eligible word of dialogue than the barons

[frigid sparrow]

Don't diss my goat ludwig

[sick yew]

The man(?) the myth

[ember storm]

the trickster was also voiced by tara strong so objectively i can dislike her

[frigid sparrow]

HUH

[bleak crow]

The fake exotic engrams gave me anxiety and I avoided exotic engrams like the fucking plague for 2 days straight

[sick yew]

Did she even have any actual lines?

[ember storm]

yes

also voiced the warrior and kridis iirc

[bleak crow]

Remind me who that is again

[sick yew]

Neat

[ember storm]

person in like every cartoon network show and stuff which is a shame

original ben 10, tt raven, timmy turner, etc

[bleak crow]

OH HER?

Ben 10 the goat 🙏🙏

[sick yew]

Fuck this new discord update I cant fucking send images

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah but we stan Yuri Lowenthal

[ember storm]

yuri lowenthal aint in d2 yet

but there is normal yuri

[sleek matrix]

[frigid sparrow]

And toxic yuri

[ember storm]

and dead yuri

[frigid sparrow]

Our problematic queen maya

[ember storm]

she ticks both boxes

[jagged badge]

Wait what

[sick yew]

Lmao

[ember storm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MCD--wloTs&ab_channel=SneakySquidGames

[sick yew]

I swear the barrons had some of the coolest Eliksni names

My favorite by far is Reksis Vahn

[ember storm]

now what are we stuck with

Drake

[sick yew]

Well BL had some cool ones too

Kridis I quite like

[jagged badge]

What’s the source on it being Tara Strong?

I can’t see anything about that from Googling

So far, anyway

What’s annoying is that apparently some of the cast list on IMDB is incomplete or even just incorrect

[ember storm]

imdb is not reliable for that at all

like who

[sick yew]

Dee Tails duh

"Dee Tails is an English rapper, dancer and actor/creature performer best known for his work in the British boy band MN8, Star Wars: The Force Awakens,[1] Rogue One,[2] Star Wars: The Last Jedi[3] and Solo: A Star Wars Story.[4]"

-Wikipedia

[lofty badge]

just me or does the Echo of Navigation look very....Forerunner

like from Halo

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/master-chief-john-117-halo-ring-the-ark-forerunner-gif-2527799222901954623

Ehhhh

[lofty badge]

i can see the smiliarties to some degree

[empty fern]

Think it’s just a common star trope design

[chrome fog]

They were mostly prominent in the Golden Age, like you said they were sort of like the Pope as head of a religious organization that centered around the Traveler (notably this religion was not universal and even seen as extremist; this sentiment has carried onto any derivative sects that arose from the establishment of the Last City and the last Speaker reinstating faith in the Traveler in general as well as with the re-establishment of said religion

[chrome fog]

Also yes we should definitely allow this masterminding schemer steal away our only source of Light - and giving us the chance to even have a chance of survival - while she fucks off into the infinite void to inevitably get caught by the Witness and allow it to enact its Final Shape

[chrome fog]

Think Mike Pollock's twitter crash out but instead it's just her taking the wrong side on any sort of societal issue any time it rises in relevence

More recently she's expressed Zionist sentiment and making disparaging comments about the Palestine-Israel conflict

[bleak crow]

“Mike Pollocks twitter crash out” 😭

[bleak crow]

I feel you don’t really like Savathûn lol

[chrome fog]

No I like her

[bleak crow]

[chrome fog]

But also like it's just a not great idea to let her run off and ditch us to get obliterated while she plays a losing game of Cat & Mouse

[chrome fog]

Like OoooO the Hive can also be revived by Ghosts, maybe this hints towards something more to them aside from the Sword Logic. Only a couple issues:

• Savathun has taken steps to ensure she was as close to how she was pre-revive - even going so far as to trick us into restoring her memories for her via the Alter of Reflection, and so she still maintains her investment into the Sword Logic both as a way to maintain power over the regular and Lightbearer Lucent Hive and out of her sentimental dedication to it, having spent all the past millennia following said philosophy after Oryx maintained that they should continue even should there be alternative paths they could have taken and enforcing that sunk cost fallacy onto all under her command
• We also killed her brother and the entirety of his family, dismantling the power structure they had been building up for their own survival. So like yeah, both cause she wasn't the one to kill Oryx as is Hive culture's expression of love and just Actually Killing Her Family and permanently end their existence
• As for any of those in her Brood (under her command), none of them are really inclined to break out of the Sword Logic cycle the entirety of the Hive race has interred themselves into; Luzaku is herself a very isolated exception and technically the way Savathun intended her Brood to be like but she's more interested in maintaining the Status Quo (in a technical way, questioning and diverting from what Savathun insists they do would be a higher form of Imbaru - Sword Logic practiced through Cunning - but she makes no moves to really direct them towards that conclusion)

Also fuckin. We'd Die.

Like Great, we're left in Sol without any way to access the Light, only a portion of us really having any kind of mastery over Stasis by the time of Witch Queen and more likely that rushing teaching Stasis without the safety net of revival will just kill all of our numbers, and we wouldn't even really be able to discover Neomuna

And if Savathun has the Traveler all tied up in her Throneworld, she's not gonna have any need for us and leave us for dead

[bleak crow]

I so badly hate myself for not getting the hive ghost shell

it’s so good

They should give us actual hive ghost shells

That would be dope

[jagged badge]

I think you should reread what I said

I’m aware of many things about Tara Strong that I won’t go into here because of the rules lmao

[bleak crow]

Eris I thought you died

[jagged badge]

I wasn’t asking about that

[bleak crow]

[jagged badge]

https://tenor.com/view/megamind-metroman-my-death-was-greatly-exaggerated-gif-19307347

[hazy veldt]

why wouldnt humanity investigate travelers shard on edz

they have literal piece of god just sitting there

i feel like such a huge lore thing added simply for recovering light in red war is silly to say the least

[trim grotto]

Because it was considered to be dangerous. Yes, it's a Shard of the Traveler, a piece of god as you say, but it was also cast off by the Traveler as it was deeply infected by Darkness. The very lands surrounding it were withered and dead.

[ember storm]

whos going to fund a research team to go there

whos going to protect them

what are they even hoping to achieve

[trim grotto]

The Darkness was still a force feared as our doom at that point. The Shard was considered an exclusion zone for safety.

[slow berry]

weve also been like, pretty busy

[ember storm]

not to mention there's literally taken spawning there 24/7 which are also more eldritch than usual now

[trim grotto]

Pretty sure it's more of a visual reference to the North Star, famously used as a navigational tool to find... Well, North. Navigational tool to represent The First Navigator.

[lofty badge]

ah okay,, i still think it looks like Offensive Bias

[jagged badge]

I think you’re

I think you’re bia-

[ember storm]

i think

i am

[chrome fog]

During the Red War, multiple other Guardians had the same idea and had perished enroute to the Shard; this paired with the stigma against Darkness - which the Shard was certainly malaised with and was the reason why it was sloughed off the Traveler to begin with - made it not worth the effort to seek it out, as the Traveler is already providing Light

[pseudo pebble]

Is it a coincidence Micah-10s childhood penguin, Ghost and the Ares One cosmonaut all share the same name

[trim grotto]

It is not

While we don't know explicitly why Micah-10's Ghost got the name, a child writing letters to the Traveler having a astronaut penguin named after an astronaut who met the Traveler is pretty on par

[pseudo pebble]

Do you think it could be a clue to a ghosts origins

[trim grotto]

No, I don't think that.

[sick yew]

Dont guardians usually name their ghosts?

[trim grotto]

Yes. Ghosts can be named by others, but only the name provided by their Chosen is considered to be their "true" name.

Such as Glint once being called Pulled Pork for... some reason.

[sick yew]

mhm

[pseudo pebble]

I wonder though

Cause Micah didn’t know until after Beyond Light right?

When she got her memories back

[sick yew]

Has Micah even been around for that long?

Lore wise

[pseudo pebble]

She knew Tallulah

[sick yew]

Damn fr?

[pseudo pebble]

It’s acc a ghost from her den who revived andal brask

[sick yew]

Okay wow I thought she was a comparatively new guardian lmfao

[trim grotto]

Well, she didn't know who she was, but Risen tend to have tendencies and habits somewhat related to their past life. So, she would likely have had an interest in the history of the Traveler. As would most people though, to be fair.

Also, she has a unique connection to the Traveler and Ghosts not unlike a Speaker.

[trim grotto]

Oh no she's a Dark Ager well and truly

[sick yew]

Has she also actually been around in the lore for that long?

And only got added ingame in FS

[pseudo pebble]

First mention I think was Forsaken

Right?

[trim grotto]

Red War, actually

[sick yew]

Damn

Gotta read up on her a bit

[trim grotto]

Well, the Six Coyotes existed since D1

[pseudo pebble]

Oh damn

[trim grotto]

But Micah wasn't named until later

[pseudo pebble]

I hope we see more of her

New cast of characters is refreshing

[sick yew]

wait wait wait Cyrell is real?

I thought that guy was just a myth

[trim grotto]

The Ghost Hunter? Oh yeah absolutely

He's a total nut

[sick yew]

I remember hearing about it in an iceberg video or something years ago and back then it was portrayed more like a myth or unwritten concept

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/ghost-hunter

[pseudo pebble]

Is he dead or is it unclear

[trim grotto]

I hope you're not feeling too cooped up. You're still doing good work, Tallu. And as they say, better you than me.

Your Faithful Den-Mother-of-Ghosts,
Micah-10```
Haven't heard from him since this, but that's referring to Tallulah, so it's old, timeline wise.

[pseudo pebble]

Cool little contrast

A den hunter mother to ghosts

And a ghost hunter

[sick yew]

I mean to be fair his initial standpoint isnt entirely unreasonable imo

The whole being unable to fight for something no one understands and shit

Especially back in the day

Its just the conclusion he came to thats clearly wrong

[ember storm]

"I think this situation is unjust. Therefore I will commit genocide"

[sick yew]

Also now that I think of it

Guy was resurrected on Mercury

Thats quite odd isnt it? There was no Human activity on Mercury during the golden age no?

I cant remember ever hearing about humanity walking Mercury until Saint and his refugee fellas rolled up that faithful day

[chrome fog]

He would’ve been an Ishtar Boy (I think)

Since that was where the Ishtar Collective established their HQ

[sick yew]

Ishtar hq was on Venus not Mercury right?

[chrome fog]

Mmmmm then yeah Cyrell was just a freak

[sick yew]

I looked a bit but couldnt find any records of humanity doing anything on Mercury during the golden age

[chrome fog]

We do go to Mercury, it’s where the Infinite Forest is, right? Maybe there’s some further connection there, like an Ishtar team sent to scout out the newly terraformed planet?

[sick yew]

Well we go to Mercury which is post collapse lol
But im specifically talking golden age here

[chrome fog]

Or maybe his connection is just to the terraforming of a planet once thought impossible to ever explore due to its damaging environment, and his philosophy as a Ghost Hunter followed similarly to his mortal counterpart’s disbelief at the changes the Traveler had made to the Sol System

[sick yew]

Cyrell just didnt understand the traveler so he wanted no part in its war

[chrome fog]

The only thing I can think of that could’ve drawn his mortal self there is either it got terraformed or the Vex activity warranted investigation

[sick yew]

Im not talking about Cyrells philosophy and where it came from

[chrome fog]

That “what the Traveler is doing is unnatural” angle is partly what I’m using to intuit how or why Cyrell’s body was on Mercury to begin with

[sick yew]

Im simply noting its odd that a guardian was resurrected on Mercury which shouldnt really be a thing from my understanding as theres no indication of anyone ever going there pre collapse
And post collapse the first team to go there was Saint along with some refugees which were all killed by the Eliksni there

Afterwards the Vex properly started converting the planet

[chrome fog]

Like, what would be a reason for someone who distrusts the Traveler - most likely at the same point in their life before they died and resurrected - be found at a planet that would not have warranted any exploration were it not for some ripple effect of the Traveler’s presence?

He would had probably been sent to scope out the extent which Mercury was terraformed and thus habitable for human occupation in some way, if not just researching how such a hostile planet was turned into a habitable one

Otherwise I think he (as a mortal) would’ve never gone anywhere close to Mercury considering it would be an example of change made by the Traveler’s presence

[sleek matrix]

Traveler terraformed a few planets before going to earth

[chrome fog]

Slash still believes it would’ve been a hostile environment due to disbelief in the Traveler’s abilities or something to that extent

[sleek matrix]

Right?

[chrome fog]

Yes I am saying this already

[sleek matrix]

The beam that is fired at the witness i wish there was more shown

Of the traveler doing stuff

[chrome fog]

That would contrast with its want of minimal-interference with the world

And before you rebuke that with “But it’s done so much through out the history of the Destiny universe”, all of that was due to pressure of the Witness and its many forces actively seeking the Traveler for nefarious purposes that would both harm others as well as itself, so it’s had to give its blessings and uplift multiple civilizations for any chance to retaliate

[slim elk]

Less retaliate given it fled all the times before humanity.

Only time it ever stood its ground was here in Sol
And even then there's evidence to indicate it's hand was forced. It got cornered in Sol and Savathun by all accounts actually saved it by offing Nezarec and stealing the Veil.

[chrome fog]

The Radial Mast, the other instances of paracausal weaponry (for how few there are, the implication is that there were others I think), and all the various civilizations uplifted to Golden Age level technology and above; imagine a planet species that is capable of making a BFG3000 but it shoots a localized gravity singularity. Like we're talking multiple Golden Age level civilizations that would break the bounds of what humanity had even done in their time before the Collapse.

Shit imagine a fleet of ships with bigger versions of the black hold gun

[slim elk]

If only it was a lot better at communicating lol

[chrome fog]

Again, the minimal interference thing

Like I mean look at the Precursors, look at a portion of Golden Age humanity for that matter

All it did was terraform a couple planets and it's worshipped as a God, or at least regarded as one and expected to conform to the wants and needs of those below

When all it wants is to observe and give a little gift every now and then

[slim elk]

That contrasts with the implication you were going with above where the Traveler was giving out weapons for defense.

[chrome fog]

That's not to say it doesn't deserve proper respect but like if it were to extend its power any further earlier within this universe, who's to say that whoever recieved its blessing wouldn't have abused it for some form of power, societal or armament-wise

Giving its Light directly, not the little limited portions it had given out like in the past, is a huge reach for it

And you're right, the most the Traveler has ever done has been here, in Sol

The weapons and the blessings from before, that was nothing compared to the gift of the Ghosts

At most, it had been getting closer and closer towards the limit of how much it would and could give to the mortal species

[slim elk]

Yeah. And most before didn't seem to be intentional weapons

Implication does seem to be the Witness actually managed to corner the Traveler in Sol

Didn't choose to fight.. but had to

[chrome fog]

Doesn’t the entry with the Radial Mast directly state that it was a gift from the Traveler

[chrome fog]

And also yes, that wasn’t in dispute; the original point was that to the least degree, the Traveler has made moves to retaliate against the Witness before coming to us, it’s just circumstance that we were the last ones before it was fully cornered and thus it exerted itself much more than it had previously

[slim elk]

I'm thinking your getting confused with something else? Radial Mast was the random macguffin in Lightfall

[chrome fog]

Gift Mast I think

The ‘Mast’ thing makes it difficult to differentiate

[slim elk]

checking
Yeah Gift Mast was a megastructure that allowed harmony to live near a black hole

They were able to use to "bend" the black holes accretion discovered to fire "stings"

[grand jungle]

Are guardians immortal like can they die old age ?

[ember storm]

dont deteriorate from age or anything

[gritty minnow]

yo I started Heresy but I don't get what the drifter and Eris are looking for on EDZ

[slim girder]

They were investigating the eversion anchors and why the taken were forming in the edz

[gritty minnow]

ooh alr thank u

[hollow hinge]

Eris and Drifter went straight to the Dreadnought

[jagged badge]

Yeah they had us investigate the EDZ for them while they investigated activity on the Dreadnaught

[ember storm]

Devrim watching anchors and tentacles falling from the sky and just drinking his tea

[strong tendon]

Aiming out the window as usually with his no land beyond

[bleak crow]

W Name

Idk if this is a lore question, but do warlocks even have a Dedicated gun? Like how titans have sweet business, and hunters have sun shot

[trim grotto]

Sunshot was actually made by a Titan.

A Sunbreaker, go figure.

[bleak crow]

lol

[ember storm]

Sunshot more like

uh

[jagged badge]

What makes you think Sunshot is a Hunter weapon?

[ember storm]

hand cannon

[torpid flint]

nuh uh. It's our weapon

[primal gate]

Seriously, what could possibly fill the power vacuum for the Taken left behind by The Witness? Think it's someone/something familiar or something we haven't seen yet?

[slim girder]

Something we haven't seen yet. This new entity is displaying power on the level of the winnower and we've never seen these tentacles and eyes before.

It's something that the taken have been singing out for and what has given them a new purpose according to some lore

[primal gate]

That's my guess, but I thought the Winnower was something like a "Voice" for the Taken, not something that could tangibly take the reins of control or will.

[slim girder]

The winnowers power is what makes the taken.
But the winnower would never intervene as that is against its own logic of survival of the fittest

[primal gate]

Looking back with the Taken, if the Witness was the Winnower's First Knife and not the Winnower itself, that could mean the Winnower is but the voice and not a hand; a voice that can be heard over a hand that takes control

[slim girder]

Again the winnower does not speak in any form as a way to guide anyone because that would go against its logic. There are beings that simply believe the same thing as it but carry out their own interpretation of it. For the witness that was the final shape.

[primal gate]

Right. That only means one last possibility, another that was influenced by the Winnower to reach the same level, if not, surpassing the Witness in terms of raw will over the Taken.

[slim girder]

The winnower wouldn't influence someone. That's against the logic.

A power vacuum has appeared and a similarly powerful or even stronger being is seeking to fill it.

[primal gate]

I didn't mean it like that, but fair enough.

Say someone discovered the Darkness similar to the Witness' civilization, like with the Veil, and came to a level of conscious understanding of the Darkness that rivals the Witness' raw willpower.

[primal gate]

Definitely ties to the eldritch being theme that Bungie was going for in Heresy.

We also know that Barrow Dyad is considered a "Precursor Weapon of Sorrow", but it could also be our link to the new Taken Master.

[frigid sparrow]

"dedicated class guns" are pretty much because of any exotic synergies, both with armor and gun. So, for example, the association with sweet business and titans is Actium War Rig, and while it technically works with any auto/mg, it's popular on SB because of the insanely large ammo pool and how Actium refills it. A more notable "combo" and this a bit cheaty, would be Helm of Saint-14 and Edge of Action, since Helm directly synergizes with that weapon's bubble ability. For hunters, an example of both would be Malfeasance and Lucky Pants giving a big damage boost to a dps hand cannon, or a more direct synergy with Mothkeepers Wraps and Ex Diris, with the armor granting bonus moths to Ex Diris' moth perk. For warlocks, the big one here is Necrotic Grips and Thorn/Osteo Striga, since they're all poison based exotics that synergize. So, if you wanna see a "dedicated gun" for them, those will be your best bet.

Holy yap

But also there's guns associated with characters of a particular class, like ace of spades and cayde or invective from D1 and ikora

[bleak crow]

Because it’s the poster weapon

Atleast I think it is

[slim girder]

It was made by a titan

[bleak crow]

no not lore wise

Nvm it’s risk runner

[sick yew]

They just gave every class a gun that generally seemed aligned with general playstyle and visuals

No lore connection

[bleak crow]

I’m just stupid then

What ever happened to the d1 guardian? My friend something about you can find there grave somewhere

[sick yew]

Nah you still play as your d1 guardian

Unless you made a new one

[hollow hinge]

We did find our own grave if that's what you're wondering

Was a special limited time puzzle event

[sick yew]

And it's not our grave

It could be a guardian who bears our name from a timeline so far detached they ain't even similar

[blazing wasp]

The grave, if ours, is "in the future"
And the future in D2 is really not set in stone

[sick yew]

And it's definitely not my guardian cause they'd have Dead Man's engraved on it not mf Bastion

[simple depot]

Wonder if you guys can help me remember a lore entry. I think it's 3 guardians on Nessus, talking while fighting, and one of them keeps running off and dying. It's quite funny as well

It isn't part of a book, it's just a single entry

[trim grotto]

Could be a few things. This isn't specifically Nessus, but it does involve Vex, for example.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/mechabre

[simple depot]

That's it

Can't believe you got that from such sparse details, you legend!

[trim grotto]

hahaha awesome

[sick yew]

That Titan is gonna be so hyped when he hears about the new crucible mode

On that note @trim grotto do we know how smart brigs are?

[trim grotto]

Nope! But the OG Brig from Scourge of the Past was piloted by a Servitor, if that helps.

It doesn't, mind you. Servitor intellect is varied. But still.

[sick yew]

I know that Servitor intellect is generally quite poorly understood

I think in the Vespers Host armor loretabs they seemed to have at least some kind of emotion

[trim grotto]

That is consistent with The Hangman from the Scorned Barons actively torturing them

[sick yew]

Mhm

And well some high servitors were actively leading their house and shit from a tactical standpoint tho that could also just be cold math

[sick yew]

Scur-V obviously has multiple PHDs and is a renowned and respected philosopher of the last city

But he's an exception

A Servitor character would be quite cool tho

[trim grotto]

i have to admit i'm rather chuffed that i got that reference for Sepiks first try

[hazy veldt]

just respite lying in some room in dsc

there is no light but colors and form are the same, only size differs

[trim grotto]

A few Darkness relics cropped up in the Golden Age - not the least of which being Clarity Control, of course.

[hazy veldt]

its literally sitting nearby

never thought that i could go inside those rooms

let alone find mico-respite inside one

[cloud gust]

My goofy ahh was like "Can Guardians be in relationships with each other?" and then later (Like longer than a day) remembered that there are multiple instances of Guardians being in relationships with each other
Although I think the only instances of those occurring are gay ones

[chrome fog]

WE GET TO PILOT A MECH??!?!

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/blink-blinking-what-confused-blacklist-gif-13641169

[ember storm]

https://tenor.com/view/mr-fresh-mr-fresh-cat-cat-demiaowa-hello-street-cat-gif-14005121929265449159

[hot cypress]

do most guardians stick to one subclass?

[sick yew]

Most guardians seem to generally try and perfect one or two subclasses

But technically they are not limited to how many they use or even use shit that ingame is exclusive to one class

A Titan could easily learn to use a golden gun or a Warlock could place a bubble and shit

There are also guardians who have mastered the light in basically all aspects
Osiris for example could just throw super of all elements over and over and did so shortly before Sagira was killed

[hot cypress]

was there a thing like that? other than arc hunters and voidlocks blinking, and all the grenades being shared

[ember storm]

Classes are literally just schools of thought

[sick yew]

^

[ember storm]

There’s no universal rule forcing you to limit yourself

Guardians simply take a look at themselves and decide which of the three they’d best align with, and then use whatever power is more natural to them

Shaw Han literally used a form of well of radiance with his gun

[hot cypress]

no im asking for an occurence of somethig like that

[hot cypress]

yeah something like that what else

[pseudo pebble]

I mean we have Drifter as proof

Lightbearer no class

[ember storm]

This isn’t something that needs to be proven

It’s literally just a thing

Savathun uses multiple “class exclusive” supers

[chrome fog]

Weirder example but one of Ana's Golden Gun shots left behind puddles of Solar energy akin to that of Solar Grenades which used to be Warlock Exclusive (I think)

[hot cypress]

im not asking for proof im just asking for like examples nothing more

[ember storm]

Felwinter shoulder charged someone’s head off I think

[sick yew]

Wasnt that Shaxx backhanding Felwinters head off? Or are we recounting different events

[ember storm]

Oh yeah that was the head part

But felwinter did Titan shoulder charge

Actually iron lords are also a prime example

They existed before classes did

[sick yew]

Drifter aswell

Man deadass has no class
Hes just a lightbearer

He never "joined" any of the classes schools so to speak

[trim grotto]

He knee'd someone as he came out of a Blink.

[hot cypress]

but when guardians get revived do they just become a class? or do they think and see which fits the best like how in the intro mission starts out

[ember storm]

very Titan of him

[ember storm]

D2 intro mission is not canon

[hot cypress]

D1 or D2 red war?

[sick yew]

Lore wise a guardian gets resurrected as just a lightbearer
Once they make their way to the last city they will generally join one of the three "schools" and become titan, warlock or hunter

[hot cypress]

not red war got confused

[ember storm]

Ghost never says “you are a [class] so you are good at this thing” and we never meet Shaw Han in the cosmodrome as a new light

[trim grotto]

You are as you are. Your class is not "chosen", per se, it is what you feel you are. What your affinity is. The classes we know today are teachings based around that.

[ember storm]

You choose your class in the character creator but lore wise I think you were simply led to the tower and met with the vanguard first and decided it then

You don’t even have all your abilities as the D1 intro mission plays out

[trim grotto]

I wouldn't go quite that far. There's a reason we've never seen this, ever. Light is malleable, and some things can be learned and taught, but I expect some forms of Light come more naturally to certain classes. To paraphrase Crow, you never see a Warlock with a Golden Gun.

[hot cypress]

so how much lore stuff got cut out for gameplay reasons?

[sick yew]

A lot

[sick yew]

Well they could learn it is all im saying
Nothing is stopping them apart from putting in the effort

[hot cypress]

like what are the stuff that was in the lore but not included in the game and ingame its completely different

like the warlock flying bit i know that