📚lore-discussion

[ember storm]

like uhh

[trim grotto]

A Ghost could bring the original body back, in theory.

[ember storm]

the clone robot guy in invincible

[ivory sluice]

Did they do that to maybe escape sickness like say cancer?

[jagged badge]

Could be many reasons

[trim grotto]

Well, it was different for different people. But yes, sure.

[jagged badge]

Cayde did it because he was in immense debt

[ivory sluice]

Or was that golden age tech for immortality

[ember storm]

at the same time i doubt clovis would ever keep them around in any form that a ghost could access

[ivory sluice]

Ohh

[trim grotto]

That was the design intention by Clovis Bray.

[ember storm]

ghosts apparently need the body to be relatively existing on initial resurrection, whether bones or even mummified remains

[jagged badge]

Clovis probably took a lot of people who were very vulnerable and desperate to test the Exo program

[ember storm]

i feel like clovis would just dump them in a giant incinerator without a thought

[trim grotto]

To be fair, our known limit is "not atomised and has intact DNA".

[ivory sluice]

I wonder, if your can even call it immortality, if you cannot remember what you were

[trim grotto]

Well, you're physically immortal given proper maintenance.

As for memories? Well, it's analogous to the Guardians, really.

Or Lightbearers in general, rather.

[ember storm]

wont stop the grey hairs or the wrinkles

[trim grotto]

Pardon?

[ivory sluice]

Is crow the only guardian that knows his past? No other guardian?

[ember storm]

being a lightbearer

[trim grotto]

Cayde-6 did. He kept a journal. Ana Bray did, hence the name. She had her ID badge.

[ember storm]

you can still get like, regular oldness happening

just not in a deteriorating sense

[jagged badge]

Not exactly the same though

[trim grotto]

I don't believe we've ever seen a Lightbearer age. I'm not sure where you're getting this.

[trim grotto]

That is true. It isn't direct memory.

[ember storm]

i don't mean they age and then can die of old age

i mean having the light doesnt literally keep you at a cool young age forever

osiris is very much grey hair and wrinkly

[jagged badge]

Ana can look at old records about herself but she doesn’t have memories of her past. Crow directly has Uldren’s memories and sorta perceives himself in part as Uldren in a sense

[ivory sluice]

Cayde kept a journal, for his son, I remember. But it is not very detailed right? Like cayde doesn’t remember his past, like how crow feels uldren

[trim grotto]

Osiris was resurrected like that

[ember storm]

yeah

thats what i said

if you're already old then you stay old

you dont ever get any younger

light cant fix that

[trim grotto]

That is not what you said

[jagged badge]

I’m assuming you aren’t being completely specific with “Guardian” so I’ll suggest Savathûn

[trim grotto]

It was fairly detailed, but a journal is a journal, not true memories.

[ember storm]

someone types out the fancy u

[trim grotto]

Crow is unique in that regard

[jagged badge]

I have a bunch of keyboard shortcuts set up for names with accents haha

[ivory sluice]

Savathun has memories of herself after being ressed?

[ember storm]

not naturally

by chance did you play the WQ campaign

[ivory sluice]

More than what she showed her with thread cutter?

[trim grotto]

She laid out plans for her Hive to teach her about who she was, and then... well, there was the entire WQ campaign.

[ember storm]

the plotline was essentially her tricking us into restoring her lost memories

[jagged badge]

Apparently I’ve been slacking with some names though

[ember storm]

we used deepsight to view memories relevant to the most important aspects of her life to try and gleam info to stop her

[ivory sluice]

Wait, so she planned her ress?

[ember storm]

the whole time yeah

Immaru was already in on the plan and wearing his hive shell

[trim grotto]

I think you might want to replay WQ, my friend

[ember storm]

he wasnt spontaneously created by the traveler then and there

[ivory sluice]

Yeah I don’t remember. I need to get on my alt

[ember storm]

what people mean when they say "the traveler gave the hive the light" is that the traveler witnessed savathun and her followers getting resurrected by ghosts and let it happen

probably because it wanted them to get a real second chance, but its savathun

[ivory sluice]

I can do the repeatable but I think I’ll be missing cutscenes

[ember storm]

she's a tricksy one

at least luzaku is chill

[ivory sluice]

Was there a reason that ghosts are drawn to the hive? Instead of say eliksni?

[trim grotto]

I can speak to that

[ember storm]

something something mental blocks on ghost resurrection i surmise

[ivory sluice]

Because from what I remember, they don’t really get to choose right? They are just pulled to who they are pulled to?

[ember storm]

what is definitively established is that ghosts will feel a pull in the presence of "theirs"

they don't have an objective beacon directing them to their guardian from day 1, though

like we've seen with crow, plenty of possible guardians might not even be born (dead) yet

but what did happen was a bunch of pairless and desperate ghosts witnessing savathun rebuilding her throne world with the light

and then presenting them with a field full of corpses

somethingsomething peer pressure and also threatening at gunpoint, youve got hive lightbearers

[ivory sluice]

They were forced to res hive?

[ember storm]

well they went into the throne world willingly out of curiosity

but she wasnt just going to let them leave

[ivory sluice]

Ahh

[trim grotto]

Back on Fundament, where the Hive were originally from, the Traveler originally intended on uplifting their species much like it did to Humanity and others. While it was busy with a species called the Ammonite on one of the moons, the Hive were essentially stolen away from the Traveler by the Worm Gods (via Rhulk/Witness). The Hive had their second chance, their new life, stolen from them.

With Savathûn freeing herself from the Worm Parasite and that tether to the Dark, the Traveler allowed the Ghosts to resurrect the Hive, giving them the second chance they had stolen from them so long ago.

The Eliksni, despite the Whirlwind, did get their golden age.

[ember storm]

might've given them the proper motiviation to do so, who knows

the ce wq lore did establish there was already ghosts who sympathized towards hive

[ivory sluice]

But we also got our golden age. And then we got a second chance afterwards. Were we just lucky?

[ember storm]

the traveler had the epiphany that running away wouldnt work with humanity, yes

there wasnt a specific reason or quality we had over the others

[trim grotto]

Essentially, yes. We were the species the Traveler was tending when it stopped running. There were various other factors, though.

[ember storm]

i think the idea is that the eliksni were the last people the traveler left and the way that turned out was a big factor

[trim grotto]

The Traveler abandoned the Eliksni, hoping that they'd be spared if it left.

[ivory sluice]

What about the piles and piles of ghosts during tfs, were they lightbearerless ghosts?

[trim grotto]

As we all know, though...

[ember storm]

that was just like

witness statue manipulation stuff

none of it was real

[ivory sluice]

Ohh

[ember storm]

you saw some of them were like 10x10 feet right

[ivory sluice]

Yeah the giant ones

[trim grotto]

TFS? I believe those in the Pale Heart were just manifestations of memory, like all else. The post campaign ones with Micah-10 were real unpaired Ghosts.

She has the title of Den-Mother-Of-Ghosts.

Micah's a special one

[ivory sluice]

Ohh

[ember storm]

imagine if these had dinklebot idle dialogue

volume multipled by 100x

[jagged badge]

Micah my beloved

[jagged badge]

That wizard came from the moon

[ivory sluice]

What, made micah come back as female? Was that, by choice? Or was there no option?

[ember storm]

it's in tHE WAAAHHGH

[jagged badge]

She’s trans

[ember storm]

her exo body was built that way

and listen

[trim grotto]

Micah-10 was female when she was a "mortal" Exo, so her transition was in the Golden Age.

[jagged badge]

She was already, at the very least, socially transitioning before becoming an Exo

[ivory sluice]

Ohh

That makes sense

[ember storm]

if i had the choice to hop in a prebuilt body that's everything i want to be, maybe i'd call up clovis too

[ivory sluice]

I didn’t know if she willingly became a female exo, or if the body was built like that and she had no choice

[jagged badge]

That was theorised in the past

[ember storm]

exo bodies have to be built relatively close to what the individual needs

[jagged badge]

But no, Micah was trans before she became an Exo

So the Exo body was built to match and affirm her gender

Otherwise she’d just suffer dysphoria that could turn fatal

[trim grotto]

It's also worth noting that DER is a hell of a thing. Putting someone in a body that significantly different would be mentally damaging and absolutely trigger DER.

[ivory sluice]

So that means, no, you don’t get to choose your prebult body.

[ember storm]

if the brain gets that split second inclination of "This is wrong, this isnt what my body is" then you die automatically

braytech wouldnt intentionally ignore your personal needs when uploading you into an exo

thats a waste of parts and a worker

[trim grotto]

Not originally. Character creation suggests more varied Exo came later. In the early days on Europa though, Elsie Bray was one of the few custom Exo.

[ivory sluice]

So clovis wasn’t necessary bad right? Good intention bad execution?

[ember storm]

no he was a fucking maniac

[ivory sluice]

Oh

[ember storm]

also sexist

[trim grotto]

Uh. Well, he was completely apathetic and amoral and sexist and narcissistic and sociopathic.

So he was a total fucking jackass

[ember storm]

some of his highlights include

tampering with his unborn son's genes to remove all those he'd inherit from the mother to replace with more of his own

[jagged badge]

His main motivations for the Exo program were saving his own skin and making humanity forever grateful to him for making them immortal

[ivory sluice]

Were there people, that were forced into exo?

[jagged badge]

He literally envisaged all of humanity becoming immortal Exos, with him as the “LUCA”

[trim grotto]

Not that comes to mind, but that would be the least of his transgressions.

[jagged badge]

The Last Universal Common Ancestor iirc

[ember storm]

bringing a young ana in to witness her father die after he tore himself to pieces from an early exo procedure

[ivory sluice]

So that’s kind of like the witness right, thinking they are doing the universe a favor?

[ember storm]

handing ana a pocket mint after watching her father die in front of her

[ember storm]

none of it is with altruistic intent

the witness in its own way genuinely wanted to be the universe's salvation

[ivory sluice]

Ohh so Clovis was all greed

[ember storm]

clovis only did it bevause he didnt want anyone else to do so

[trim grotto]

Well, yes, but... he wanted to leave the biggest Legacy on mankind. It was shockingly selfish. Legacy! Everything is legacy to him!

[ember storm]

he planned on destroying the traveler and place himself as humanity's god

[ember storm]

there was classics like the "pill that removes the need for my workers to eat food" and the vex transplant experiments, however

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-bray-lab-records-confidential
Red these logs some time. Ignore the misspelling. The first letter of the lexicon is nonfunctioning on my computer.

[ember storm]

which are definitely a lot worse

[ivory sluice]

So what I don’t really understand, is the whole awoken timeline. I kinda understand how they came to be, I kinda understand that Mara somewhat lied?

[trim grotto]

okay the letter a is working again good

anyway, awoken time

[ivory sluice]

They started as a group of humans

On a ship

[ember storm]

she kinda like

manipulated the situation in a way that would cause a divide in the people and make some want to leave their little pocket universe with her, iirc

the way she acts now is a relatively new development from WQ onward

[ivory sluice]

Yes I remember this from byf she manipulated

[ember storm]

she'd always been the prime "ends justify the means" type

also i dont like her hair

[ivory sluice]

How did Zavala play into all of this, was he part of her group?

[ember storm]

dont think so

awoken arent just one generation

he could easily be one of those born in the reef who simply decided to head to earth on their own

his ghost first found him lying dead in a crashed shuttle

[ivory sluice]

So she is queen Mara because she literally manifested the race of the awoken

And the awoken did not know that she manifested them that way right?

[trim grotto]

Mra wasn't made queen until she nd her followers left the Distributry, t which point she ws ctully elected to be queen.

[trim grotto]

Only select few

[ivory sluice]

Oh

[trim grotto]

Such s Sjur Eido nd lis Li

[ember storm]

having a rough time there

[trim grotto]

yes

the letter will not work

[ember storm]

well its a good excuse to use your voice more

which reminds me

[trim grotto]

[ivory sluice]

One of these days, I just need to make an event, and sit in comms and just have a q&a and understand everything

[trim grotto]

i want to know why Discord Mobile has a voice message function but Discord on PC does not

[empty fern]

The humble siri

[ivory sluice]

So onto the most relevant lore, are we believing that there is something greater than the winnower?

Or something greater than oryx

[trim grotto]

Rhulk was arguably greater than Oryx.

As for the Winnower? I'm not sure if you can compete with what may be the embodiment of the cycle of life and death.

We'll see what happens.

[empty fern]

Randal

[trim grotto]

Well obviously there's Randal

that goes without saying

[ivory sluice]

Why was eris so gobsmacked about that ogre? What exactly was happening to that ogre?

[ember storm]

i havent played this week

[trim grotto]

uuuh i hven't played this week so i'll pss on tht one

[ember storm]

but ogres are cool

[empty fern]

Did I miss something? Sounds like new lore

[ivory sluice]

Oh shit mb

[ember storm]

ive seen people complain about not being able to interact with it dw

i assume its just some like

[jagged badge]

You’ll piss on that one

[ivory sluice]

When you guys get to it, feel free to break it down

[ember storm]

filler mumbo jumbo strengthening our power or getting a new piece of willbreaker

[trim grotto]

[jagged badge]

There’s Mael breaking it down

[ember storm]

should make an updated one

[jagged badge]

Speaking of which though, you wanna play tomorrow?

[empty fern]

Wait
I thought we weren’t doing weekly anymore
Thought it was full act 2 quest

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/polish-cow-dancing-cow-gif-20702584

[jagged badge]

That was just for Revenant

It didn’t work

Caused a lotta issues

[empty fern]

I see

[jagged badge]

So they went back on it for Heresy

[ivory sluice]

They took feed back from last season and decided they went too far in one direction

So this season is the middle ground between first and second

[empty fern]

I see

[ivory sluice]

They gave us a lot more than first season but not everything like 2nd

[ember storm]

glad we figured out the episode structure on the last episode in the game

great work guys

[ivory sluice]

Yeah lol then they decided episodes just weren’t it all together

[empty fern]

Oh?

So we going back to seasons?

[ivory sluice]

If they were to keep going though, this season was by far the best structured

[ember storm]

weird seasons

[empty fern]

Quarter seasons?

[sleek matrix]

Yes

[ivory sluice]

Yeah so they don’t call them seasons, but rather updates

4 of them

And you don’t pay for them

[empty fern]

Oh?

[ivory sluice]

Yup, just the expansions, which now you’ll have to buy 2 for the next year

Now will there still be a premium reward track I do not know

[empty fern]

Sounds like curse of Osiris

[sleek matrix]

We going back

[empty fern]

Full circle

Heresy was our “we’ve awoken the hive”

[jagged badge]

There’ll be reward tracks, and those will be paid for

Which ultimately makes them more akin to battle passes in other games

[ivory sluice]

Ahh okay. They are just separating “seasonal activities” from the reward track.

[sleek matrix]

I forsee a decrease in quality for seasons going forward

The fact there gonna be free and they go into the vault

This is destiny biggest problem imo

They dont make content to last

[ivory sluice]

Idk, I mean ITL, was great.

Idk how long it took them to produce that

[sleek matrix]

They announced the delay for tfs a good few months

Like in nov

So they had plenty of time to make ITL

[chrome fog]

Oh shoot wassup Baby D, I think I recognize you

[ember storm]

Ten bungillion years

[hot cypress]

are blinks short teleportation like in ingame? or can they be long as they need to be?

[sick yew]

They can reach further than ingame and even pass through walls in certain cases afaik

But you cant like teleport across the last city if thats what youre wondering

[hot cypress]

and how long is the last city?

[sick yew]

Its big

Very big

[hot cypress]

like countries big?

[sick yew]

Nah

[hot cypress]

just a big downtown big

right?

[chrome fog]

It’s a city

[sick yew]

This is what it looks like from orbit

[chrome fog]

Like an entire city

[hot cypress]

and thats a city??

[sick yew]

So it is considerably large but not as big as a country

[chrome fog]

Maybe a smaller country

[sick yew]

The last safe city on earth

[chrome fog]

Like an itty bitty country

[sick yew]

Mf Lichtenstein maybe

[hot cypress]

damn right

but it doesnt go farther than planets when you blink right?

[chrome fog]

Also looking over the railing from the tower and actually taking a peak at the rest of the city and it is ridiculously huge

[sick yew]

Nah its a couple of meters at most

[chrome fog]

I think a good estimate would be like, 2-ish stories of you were to blink straight upward

[sick yew]

Sounds like a decent estimate ye

[hot cypress]

damn

i was hoping it would be longer

[sick yew]

Nah

[hot cypress]

like how warlocks actually fly instead of glide

[chrome fog]

I think they just glide

[eager trout]

What's the situation with Swiss Army Knives at the time of Destiny (and during the Golden Age)?

[ember storm]

People probably don’t even know what Switzerland is

[chrome fog]

That and Golden Age geopolitical borders might look entirely different to irl

[empty fern]

Pineapples, huh

[hearty dew]

pineapples?

did i miss something

[dim minnow]

knowledge of pineapples was lost due to the collapse

eventually, when we discover the existence of farms that produced them on Titan, we preseumed they were a mix between pinecones and apples

didn't help that they were listed alongside various actual hybrid foods like Kiwi-cumbers

at some point, Eris asked for someone to retrieve some seeds for her so she can grow them

then she used it to make some food with her trusty wok

[tropic swift]

Was hunter solar based off outlaws of the wild west?

[dim minnow]

lore-wise, or development-wise?

[tropic swift]

Lore

[dim minnow]

because I'm not sure if the subclass itself was really inspired by wild west in-universe

given how much of human knowledge and culture was lost in the Collapse

at most Tex Mechanica maybe

[tropic swift]

Like think about it
There's a hostler icon for one of the aspects
Golden Gun Deadeye
throwing knives
The name "gunpowders gamɓle"

It had to be

[next bobcat]

AFAIK subclasses don’t limit us

Like theoretically a titan could make a stasis golden gun

Ikora used a void chaos reach-lookin thing iirc

Subclass conventions and aspects are mainly for gameplay

[trim grotto]

To be fair, Aspects didn't exist until just after Witch Queen for Subclass 3.0

Neither did Gunpowder Gamble

[clear knot]

Why did we have to kill Riven in LW? Wasn't she just trapped there? And there were no taken in the dreaming city until we killed her

[trim grotto]

Not just trapped.
Taken Riven's influence was already strong enough to reach outside of the Dreaming City entirely, she was invading Uldren Sov's mind and masquerading as his sister, driving him even further insane than he already was. It was her influence that had him attempting to free her from the Dreaming City, which we barely stopped at the end of the campaign.

[clear knot]

Oh, so she was too powerful so we had to kill her? I didn't have a chance to play forsaken...

[trim grotto]

Petra Venj asked us to put Riven down. An Ahamkara is dangerous at the best of times, and one corrupted by Taken influence whose influence extends outside of its cage is very concerning.

[clear knot]

So why was she corrupted?

[trim grotto]

Oryx, the Taken King, visited Riven during his invasion of Sol. He Took her, but as she had Oryx Wish to Take her (which he wasn't aware of), she managed to wrangle her freedom of will back after his death.

This was also when Oryx Shattered Eleusinia, the Throne World of Mara Sov. Hence the title of the Dungeon.

[clear knot]

Ah, okay.

Also, another question because I'm too new to the game: When did we ally with Eliksni and Cabal?

[trim grotto]

We allied with the House of Light during Season of the Splicer, shortly before Witch Queen.
Savathûn had Quria, the Dreaming Mind, make the Vex cast a massive Taken-infested Vex simulation over the Last City.
Warlock Vanguard Ikora Rey sought out Misraaks (Mithrax), Kell of House Light, and offered him and his House safety within the Last City if he would use his skills as a Sacred Splicer to aid us in freeing the Last City from the simulation that became known as the Eternal Night.

This led to significant political discource within the Last City due to Ikora's actions without consulting the Consensus. This, combined with the paranoia and hysteria applied by the Endless Night, as well as the direct influence over members of the City by Savathûn, eventually led to the deconstruction of the Consensus, as the Future War Cult was killed, exiled, or disbanded; the New Monarchy fled after a failed coup, and Dead Orbit finally did what they said they'd do and simply leave Sol.

As for the Cabal Ascendancy, we allied with them and their Empress, Caiatl, at the climax of Season of the Chosen, also before Witch Queen, prior to Splicer, shortly after Beyond Light. Due to various carefully planned political and cultural movements from Caiatl, she used old honour-bound traditions to pit us against her champion, and as we won, we entered an armistice which eventually evolved into an alliance.
She had to do this in order to keep the loyalty of the Cabal, who would have abandoned or overthrown her had she simply openly offered an alliance.

Caiatl is a very intelligent person, and certainly worthy of respect.

She knew she needed our aid, but she knew she had to gain it without impeding the honour of the Cabal.

[clear knot]

Ah, okay. So we allied with Caital via combat, then allied with Mithraks because he could help us?

[trim grotto]

And so that his House would be safe from the House of Salvation - and the harsh environment of Europa. And Guardians, for that matter.

[clear knot]

Ah, okay. Thank you!

[long sandal]

wait can ikora use aspects and drags?

frags

[trim grotto]

What?

[long sandal]

I'm asking if ikora can use fragments

and aspects

[trim grotto]

Aspects and Fragments are more of a gameplay mechanic, but I don't see why she wouldn't. Why Ikora, specifically?

[long sandal]

because if she does use fragments and aspects then she might be running a build to use all those nova bombs at once

[trim grotto]

Yeah, that's... more of a gameplay system than a lore thing. Ikora is centuries old and has always been a very powerful Warlock.

[long sandal]

I see

isn't ikora a sigma guardian?

[trim grotto]

According to an arguably flawed ranking system, yes. She is one of the most powerful Warlocks to have existed.

[long sandal]

ok

Is zavala and cayde also an sigma guardian?

[trim grotto]

That ranking system has not been referenced outside of Ikora, by Chalco.

But probably not.

[long sandal]

ok

what is beyond the rank of sigma?

gamma?

[trim grotto]

That ranking system has not been further explored, but the way it was described would suggest there isn't one.

[long sandal]

ok

[jagged badge]

Yeah Cayde may be skilled enough, but he’s not notably powerful or extraordinary really

[chrome fog]

Can’t wait for Chalco to get made fun of by Peach or another character

[jagged badge]

Why?

[sleek matrix]

He has a personality

[jagged badge]

That has literally nothing to do with what I said or what the conversation was

[sleek matrix]

Wouldn't that be osiris

Since he was ikora mentor

[trim grotto]

Those are not mutually exclusive statements

[sleek matrix]

[trim grotto]

They're both strong.

[jagged badge]

“One of”

[sleek matrix]

Yes but imo

Osiris was ahead of his time

[trim grotto]

In some ways, yes, he was. However, his obsessions came at the detriment of his duties.

[sleek matrix]

Yes it actually made sense he got exiled ppl thought he was crazy

But i would say he was probably the most sane from what we know now

[jagged badge]

Amassing a cult following he made no effort to dispel doesn’t help too

[chrome fog]

The categorizing of guardians based on their ability to handle light feeding into power scaling

[chrome fog]

That still doesn’t mean Ikora isn’t also powerful

Like what Mael said, they’re not mutually exclusive

As in, both statements of “Ikora is a Sigma level Guardian” and “Osiris was just as if not more powerful than her being her mentor” can be true

[slim girder]

I like to think of cayde as the guy that everyone knows rather than some big legend. He's capable but he's not making myths or anything like say ana bray whose golden gun shots still burn apparently. Or shin malphur who killed the infamous dredgen yor.

[eager trout]

Who's Chalco?

[jagged badge]

Hidden agent who is now actually the leader since Ikora stepped down. Close friends with Ikora

[thick merlin]

Genuine question out of pure curiousity please don't hurt me but do you guys think that Exo's could have mental illnesses? (Like schizophrenia, chronic anxiety, etc)

[jagged badge]

Possibly

Exos are ultimately human minds in robotic bodies, so I’d reckon they could inherit or develop particular mental issues

[chrome fog]

It was in fact a major issue that was exos would repeatedly undergo a sort of full body dysphoria in which their consciousness began to reject their new metal form, and the only way to mitigate this was to integrate as many 1-to-1 humanism functions so as to rectify that divide between what the consciousness recognized as human needs and the Exo body’s ability to carry them out

Also (mostly) the reason why exos have a number hyphened to their name, as it signifies how many resets they have undergone until they stabilized to their present self

[thick merlin]

I see I see. Thank you!!

Was also asking for character writing, so this was really helpful, thank you :)

[chrome fog]

If you’d like to research more into exos, I suggest looking into Beyond Light’s content - Collector’s Edition book and all (there is a transcript in the pins) - as it reveals much about the Exo process

Ishtar Collective is also a good source, as they have in-game entries of just about everything

[thick merlin]

Word, this is super helpful!! Also last question, do they remember why they were reset?

[chrome fog]

Not necessarily, but that’s a longer explanation;

[thick merlin]

I can't explain how interesting this genuinely is

I don't know much because I just can't sit down and read for the life of me

[chrome fog]

So with the Exo-transference process, the individual’s mind is scanned and then uploaded to the Deep Stone Crypt (yes the raid as well as that place where you fight the Technocrat in the BL campaign), where it is then uploaded into an Exo body and housed within this matrix liquid called Alkahest - a purified form of Radiolaria that is cleansed via a Pyramid/Darkness statue that Clovis discovered/was drawn to

[hollow hinge]

So in short and oversimplified... Exos are purified Vex with human consciousness, no?

[thick merlin]

That's what I'm gathering

[hollow hinge]

Which is why Saint was so easily influenced in episode echoes

[chrome fog]

For the mindscan process itself, there are seemingly multiple ways to do this, however Clovis’ is apparently lethal to the original body in exchange for supposed “fidelity” (as in it produces a better scan; I’m partial to him literally dumping a tub of Alkahest onto the subject and Alkahest supposedly being just Radiolaria with out the connection to the Vex Network, melds the individual into the liquid from which their consciousness and memory can be extracted as data. This is all just my own conjecture tho, no explanation as elaborate as that is provided in-universe) but supposedly Maya Sundaresh was able to do a brain scan which didn’t kill its subject and then upload herself in the weird not-really-like-the-Witness-conglomerate-being-made-from-the-exos-killed-in-proximity-of-the-Veil thing that was Lakshmi-2

[chrome fog]

Eeeehhhhh maybe that, maybe moreso the method by which we extracted him from the Infinite Forest and made him essentially a physically realized Vex Simulation with all his Light and his Ghost; but who’s to say

[thick merlin]

I am just barely understanding any of this as I don't know what half of these things are, but I'll figure it out

[chrome fog]

Saint is a very special case just cause. Of course he is.

[thick merlin]

Average titan behavior

[chrome fog]

And also the fuckery with the Vex Network and it’s simulations of reality being so thorough that they about approximate an actual alternate universe/timeline which they may or may not be. Maybe.

[ember storm]

No not really

radiolaria is just a chemical compound with vex cells in it, which clarity (darkness) completely kills off

Clovis used this fluid, a version called alkahest because it’s simply capable of holding a consciousness

Saint wasn’t turning into a vex or anything

When the echo first crashed into Nessus it essentially fell into a pool of radiolaria itself, iirc

[slim elk]

Its also worth noting the memory wipes were also cover to remove evidence of some of Clovis's crimes.
We have a few examples of Exos that have gone for several decades (centuries?) without a need for a reboot

No paracausal relations either

[chrome fog]

I mean that’s partly given what with having literal robot bodies with no biological processes to maintain

[jagged badge]

It is funny that Banshee has such a high number of resets, yet they all took place at the same time essentially

[chrome fog]

Save for those within the mind

[jagged badge]

Then he’s lived centuries after that with no resets

[slim elk]

Dont forget Ada-1 over in the Black Armory

[chrome fog]

For both of them, their frame of reference would be that they’ve lived a majority of their lives in their Exo body, as Ada was a children when she was transferred to her current body and Banshee did not have his memories from his past life

[slim elk]

Clovis is the kind of guy I wont be suprised if he kept the "best" tech for himself and a certain few

[chrome fog]

He did exactly that

[jagged badge]

No Exo had memories of their human lives

[chrome fog]

Like, Elsie’s is a proprietary model Exo body

[chrome fog]

Wasn’t that the point of the Deep Stone Crypt, a back up of their consciousness and memories to a certain point?

[slim elk]

Im afraid you got that wrong, they do

Micah

[jagged badge]

Their Exo memories

Elsie had to go re-meet her family remember

[slim elk]

Micah was able to download their memories and remember Cayde when they were still human so..

[chrome fog]

Well wait, do we get anything on Micah from between the time she became an Exo and her mortal death, because if we’re just assuming this off of her knowledge now as a Guardian that may very well have been from the journal entries we collected on Europa

[jagged badge]

Oh this is from the dialogue from the Ghost quests right?

Hmm

[slim elk]

She mentions this in her Final Shape dialogue yep

Broke into that repository and found the memories

[jagged badge]

Then how come Elsie didn’t have that option?

[chrome fog]

Oh if that’s the case then that’s good

[jagged badge]

You wish you could remember.```

This is her re-meeting her brother

[slim elk]

What do you mean? You talking the time that Clovis explicitly reprogrammed and deleted her memories to stop her trying to nuke Europa?

[jagged badge]

No

[jagged badge]

And now her re-meeting her grandmother too

Your paternal grandmother was a dizzying beauty in the old family pictures, and she still is. But her power clearly lies in her savvy intellect. She was hard to find, using her old name, Lusia Lin. And no Common Compassion registry to speak of. You look at her with renewed admiration.```

She doesn’t have her memories of her human life

She doesn’t know/remember what her family are like

[slim elk]

I think thats an issue of Clovis being Clovis

Denying access

[jagged badge]

Now that I mention this though, I recall BL Elsie talks about Ana during their childhoods so

Hmmm

[slim elk]

Like I said, we have explicit confirmation of Clovis messing with her memories.. chalk it up to that

[chrome fog]

Yeah I do want to ask when these entries are, as it could be like what Freak’s suggesting and it being Clovis bring a bastard

[jagged badge]

We had that voice log about another Exo who had a craving for a grandparent’s recipe of a food yet didn’t know who their family even was as well though

[ember storm]

Doghives

[slim elk]

I think its an issue of access. The Exo wakes up and gets accumilated to the new body.. then gets the memory transfer

Makes it really easy for Clovis to "edit" troublesome individuals

[ember storm]

Wouldn’t it just be like

[chrome fog]

I do remember this being a method to control the Exos by keeping their memories from them

[ember storm]

Probably depending on how early/late the individual joined the exomind program

Like if Elsie was early on maybe they just couldn’t store memories yet

[chrome fog]

That could also be the case as well

[ember storm]

Whereas Micah would be later on

Having to grow into an adult already before being scanned

[slim elk]

Its hard distinguishing between the limitations of the tech and how much of it is Clovis being Clovis

[chrome fog]

It would also help that many of the early testers were debtors in some way or another, like Cayde was

[slim elk]

People who Clovis wouldn't care if they lived or died if it ensured his tech was figured out

Work out all the issues before using it himself

[ember storm]

Clovis was willing to have his own son put into like the earliest version of the exomind program

[slim elk]

Remember who you speak of here. Clovis was an utter bastard

[ember storm]

Clovis watching his son die after bringing his 10 year old granddaughter in the room to watch it happen: “how about a mint”

[sleek matrix]

Doesn't make sense

[ember storm]

He literally just did that

[sleek matrix]

Why would he use his own son for experiments

[ember storm]

Because he was dying from something that was Clovis’ own fault

[sleek matrix]

I guess he wasnt as smart as he thought

[sleek matrix]

Oh

[ember storm]

He just decided “fuck it he’s dying anyway might as well get a test out of it”

That was literally the reason

So he shoved him into one of the earliest exo iterations

[slim elk]

Clovis is the sort of guy who doesnt even blink at human experimentation.

Remember this

[sleek matrix]

Hes a sociopath

[ember storm]

What was it that Clovis II was dying from you may ask? Before he was even born, Clovis genetically modified him to remove all the genes he’d have inherited from the mother and replaced them with more of his own

[slim elk]

So why are you suprised he would use his son as a test subject? lol

[sleek matrix]

I would think he would use someone other than his son tho

But i forgot his son was ill because of him

[slim elk]

It makes sense in a twisted way. Modified his son to be as close to him as possible.. genes be the same.. so effects would be the same

Clovis be a bastard, but hes still a genius behind a lot of Golden Age tech

Bout the only reason we dont blow up his oversized head down in Europa

[chrome fog]

No he was smart, it’s just he was as much an asshole as he was a genius.

Intelligence does not automatically equal to empathy

[blazing wasp]

Academic intellect and Social intellect are differing skills

[chrome fog]

Also I swear, wasn’t there a later lore entry somewhere that has Clovis confess that he hadn’t thought to replace his wife’s genes in his own son, but then really liked the idea once the rumor ran amok?

[torpid flint]

It was probably his way of getting rid of someone he may have believed to be inferior

[dim minnow]

I'm pretty sure that it was moreso Elsie and her siblings accusing Clovis of him doing that with the intent of sabotaging his son's genome

[wheat flower]

Most sane Clovis statement

[chrome fog]

Knew it

https://tenor.com/view/yes-sweet-hell-yes-pump-it-gif-2609956353695275627

[dim minnow]

well no he definitely did do it

it's just that he didn't intend for it to give his son an incurable diesease that was killing him

[torpid flint]

So the 'perfect' man made a mistake in his genius. Hilarious

[dim minnow]

even funnier that he wish his mistake was intentional

[torpid flint]

I really like that they didn't (to my knowledge) try to redeem him. Sometimes, villains just need to be pure evil

In Clovis's case, i think it's well written

[dim minnow]

well, technically he did get a sort of redemption

in the form of Clovis-1 to 43

ending in Banshee-44

the Lament lore tab puts it best

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-lament?highlight=lament

the Clovis AI though...

that's another story

[torpid flint]

That is true but I don't think we can even consider Clovis-1 and banshee to the original. They're completely different characters in my eyes

[torpid flint]

Especially since that AI did try to mold Clovis-1 into the old one

[dim minnow]

I'd argue that Clovis-1 to 43 is at least somewhat closer to Clovis Bray since he himself wanted to erase his own memory of being Clovis

[chrome fog]

I think the implication of Clovis’ turn at the end is that either he had been influenced to be this way from the Darkness Statue (which also reflects how Maya underwent a shift when in proximity to the Veil) or Banshee is who Clovis would have become if he didn’t have the debilitating genetic disease he was born with

Or also just exactly that, he had redeemed himself in a moment that tested him and came out wanting to distance himself from how he used to be

[next bobcat]

The whole Clovis thing is almost exactly like the ship of Theseus - which is the real Clovis, a copy of him or one that has been changed so much that it’s unrecognisable

Maybe neither

[torpid flint]

Yes but Exos come out as a mostly blank state if i recall. So technically he came out as a man separated from the legacy he cared so much about. That was a huge part of his character.

[empty fern]

You know
We could pull a saint and just snag an old Clovis from somewhere

Also the fact that deep stone lullaby is playing while I checked here is insane

[chrome fog]

Saint is like an additional layer to the Ship of Theseus equation, two of them in fact

First became an Exo, then died and was made a Lightbearer, then originally died diving into the Vex Network and came back via simulation technicality weirdness and the Light

[next bobcat]

Wow

[trim grotto]

we love our boy Saint-14

[next bobcat]

He’s literally him

Absolute unit

[jagged badge]

Mael

[trim grotto]

ewis

[jagged badge]

You didn’t respond to my DMs

[trim grotto]

oh shit i didn't did i

haha whoops

[jagged badge]

Shaking my smh

[ember storm]

drama

[hearty dew]

🍿

[woeful cypress]

can someone give a quick overview of the witness origin? from my brief understanding was it a race that the traveler left and they all combined into the witness?

[dapper moss]

pretty much yeah

[sick yew]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0CKckjryVI&ab_channel=Destiny2

[dapper moss]

the traveler left them because they tried to create the final shape with the veil and the traveler

[sick yew]

This should tell you all really@woeful cypress

Or a good portion at least

[woeful cypress]

thank you guys

and was the veil ever discovered? i was really out of touch with lightfall lore

[trim grotto]

Discovered? It was kind of the centerpiece of the entire Lightfall campaign and post campaign.

You can go there right now

Just pop on down to the facility and take a gander

[ember storm]

Make sure to stop by the gift shop to collect your free picture

[eager trout]

Guys, I have a theory

[hollow hinge]

That generic robot army with a "general" with weird hat/head ornament was copied from another generic robot army with a general with a weird hat/head ornament

[dim minnow]

listen, I'm a CIS supporter all the way, but this ain't it chief

[jagged badge]

I can’t be a CIS supporter, I’m trans

[torpid flint]

Puns..

[torpid flint]

They should've won. Especially if the Clone numbers were indeed in the "millions". Should've been hundreds of billions

[dim minnow]

General Grievous is a hero in this house, end of story

[hollow hinge]

each clone was capable of taking out an armada's worth of drones at the very least

[paper gorge]

who is archie ?

[hollow hinge]

The robot dog

During season of the seraph we found him in the orbital space station and brought him to the helm

Then shortly after that he was brought to the tower, likely cuz they didn't want him onboard when the helm got reset or when it crashed

[torpid flint]

Hmmm... no war crimes at all? None at all?

[dim minnow]

those Republic dogs deserved it

https://tenor.com/view/saul-cis-confeder-star-wars-clone-trooper-gif-26100258

[torpid flint]

This sounds an awful lot like the Saint-14 and the Fallen

[paper gorge]

thanks

[chrome fog]

He's also the last vestige of Rasputin after he sacrificed himself after essentially pulling himself back together from his disparate subminds, right? He's also some weird blackbox for Rasputin's data or something, but even aside from that Archie is the last thing Rasputin created out of his own volition; not any sort of weapon or defense system, the last thing he brought into the world was something that ran completely against the wishes of Clovis and followed through what Ana taught him about humanity - he made a little buddy!

Lots of themes and narrative endings rolled up into a little good boy

[eager trout]

The Republic may have had a human army, but the CIS had the most humane one.

[torpid flint]

Clankers

[bleak crow]

does anyone know what those giant things on titan are? Weren’t they like some kind of a giant whale species?

[dim minnow]

Ahsa?

she is what we call a proto-worm

essentially a Worm God before they became a Worm god

[bleak crow]

This right?

[dim minnow]

yes

[bleak crow]

did they ever do anything with her? Or is she just long boy in the soup

(I love drifter)

[bleak crow]

like was she ever involved in the story? Or is she just background thing

[dim minnow]

quite a bit

[bleak crow]

oh shi fr?

[dim minnow]

firstly, during the time Titan was gone, Sloane met her and was rescued by her

they formed a bond

then, when Titan returned and we found Sloane again, we helped her strengthen her bond with Ahsa via egregore coral

this allowed Ahsa to reveal the Witness' backstory to us since she needed to speak to us through Sloane

then we had to stop Xivu Arath from corrupting her

after that, she revealed to us that we needed Savathun's help to reach the Pale Heart

then, in the season after, Season of the Witch, Eris had Asha act as a vessel for her tribute in order to help with her whole Hive God of Vengeance plan

since then, Ahsa had been getting some rest

as for her backstory, she watched as her Worm siblings were corrupted by the Witness and they began killing each other

she then fled from the fundament presumably using the Ascendant Plane where she would eventually end up on Titan after following the Traveler

she was there since probably the Golden Age (maybe before that)

[bleak crow]

so is she gone forever?

[dim minnow]

no, she's still on Titan

she's sleeping rn

[bleak crow]

oh w

but we can’t go to titan right?

[dim minnow]

we can in-universe

just not ingame currently except for the Ghosts of the Deep dungeon

[bleak crow]

[dim minnow]

she did have a lore entry that came with Heresy

[bleak crow]

I remember seeing her a lot in the background during forsaken, I remember thinking “damn, big whale” and then just watching her for like 2 minutes

[dim minnow]

where she tried reaching out to her surviving siblings

[bleak crow]

Oh dope

[dim minnow]

it's one of the new weapon lore tabs I think

[bleak crow]

also, I’ve had another lore question since I’m trying to catch up on the lore, is riven like gone gone? I know she came back for season of the wish but will we ever see her again?

[dim minnow]

yeah, she's gone for good now

she used the last of her power to grant the Last Wish (15th Wish)

something I absolutely loved about that was that when you made the 15th Wish, the entry for it was given to you in the Wall of Wishes lore book just like the last 14 wishes that were released with the raid years ago

[bleak crow]

I wish we got to see more of riven, I loved riven and last wish is still my favorite raid (fight me)

[slim girder]

Despite being gone for good I still find it interesting how she said goodbye by like we'd meet again. Unless of course we meet her through her offspring that we are now in charge of protecting.

That would always be a part of her in some way

[bleak crow]

didn’t she have a husband?

[slim girder]

Taranis yes

Who granted his own wish to protect their eggs

Which cost him his own existence

[bleak crow]

Wym existence? I thought he just simply died

[dim minnow]

well yeah, he died because of that

when an Ahamkara grants their own wish, the difference between what is desired and what is granted is gone

therefore, they fade away

[bleak crow]

like literally just fade away?

[slim girder]

Yes

[bleak crow]

So he just went

[slim girder]

It's the one thing an ahamkara must never do.
But taranis being different did what he had to.
He was the only ahamkara who didn't twist his wishes and people who bargained with him were safe.

And I hope the same will apply to their offspring when or if we ever see them

[bleak crow]

lowkey I have this theory that the Ahamkara we see in Witch Queen is Taranis

Because they look NOTHING alike

ok well they kinda do but still

[bleak crow]

w mans

[slim girder]

Well taranis wasn't taken. Both riven and that illusion are

[dim minnow]

we do have Taranis appear in an inkblot cutscene

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5Mb_l80Cdg

[bleak crow]

I remember my friend was obesssed with this cutscene and hates Bungo for “deleting it”

[slim girder]

Bro doesn't know YouTube exists lol

[bleak crow]

well I mean tbh, its much better actually seeing a cutscene then watching a video of it you know?

idk if that’s just me tho

[slim girder]

Yeah I get that as well. It's why spoilers don't effect me as much because seeing it myself just feels better.

But it could be worse. Bungie could just completely forget about it and we never see it again but instead they're actually archiving these moments.

[bleak crow]

I have a feeling we might

because again, in the last wish, Petra says “last KNOWN Ahamkara”

implying maybe there’s more out there

Since we’re going out of the solar system next expansion

[bleak crow]

Bungie literally said this themselves

[sick yew]

It's not like Ahamkara are shapeshifters and stuff

[bleak crow]

Wym?

[sick yew]

Just cause they look nothing alike don't mean they ain't the same

Ahamkara can change their form into all sorts of stuff

[dim minnow]

the Nine got rid of the others

[bleak crow]

I swear to God I completely forgot they can do that

[sick yew]

Lmfao

[bleak crow]

wait they did?

god damn it

[sick yew]

Well there is the egg

[bleak crow]

I’m sueing them for animal abuse then

[slim girder]

Riven and taranis offspring are the start of the new era of ahamkara

All those eggs we saved

[sick yew]

If they ever lean into that

[slim girder]

It's a story thread for another time I believe.

[sick yew]

Imma be real I'm pretty fine with the Ahamkara being dealt with

Plus Mara is undoubtedly gonna try some shit again sooo

I'd rather not be there for that disaster

[slim girder]

I'd be fine if they just did a small entry on the hatchlings as a way to give them a happy ending .

Like a confirmation they are safe now

[sick yew]

Eh show me the way and I'll get rid of them simple as that

[slim girder]

As someone who hasn't taken off claws of ahamkara since D1 they are my favourite part of destinys lore .

Even now I'm still using claws just on the class item instead

[bleak crow]

They were in d1????

[slim girder]

The lore for the ahamkara was

[sick yew]

Technically most Ahamkara died even pre d1

[bleak crow]

weren’t they like sentence to death? Isn’t that what they great hunt was

[slim girder]

Yes

[sick yew]

Mhm

[slim girder]

Too dangerous so it was ordered they'd be driven to extinction

[sick yew]

And then the Tyranny of Heaven loretab happened

[bleak crow]

if I remember correctly, the 15th wish of Riven was to get Crow into the traveler right?

[slim girder]

Yes

A path to the witness

[bleak crow]

if so, why didn’t he just.. go through the giant portal

[slim girder]

Because they tried that and a poor guardian got welded to his own ship

Permanently.

[bleak crow]

that’s some warframe type shi I’m not even gunna lie

[slim girder]

@bleak crow
https://youtu.be/7k5WJrUx558?feature=shared

Here

[bleak crow]

so then how did we not get fucking welded to our ship when we went in?

[slim girder]

Because since crow had gone through his connection to mara was used to then form a bridge and let us through

[bleak crow]

oh ok

[bleak crow]

And just to be clear, he’s like dead dead right?

like not even his ghost can fix that?

[slim girder]

Yes. That was permanent

Ghost was gone as well

[bleak crow]

they get welded to?

[sick yew]

Unknown but they dead as fuck

The titan is actually none other than Joxer

There is a loretab detailing his final moments too
Where was it

[slim girder]

In the ghost shell from season of the deep

[sick yew]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/akashic-revelation

[slim girder]

Oops it's the ship

[sick yew]

Yeye

Still quite the odd loretab ngl

It just feels weird to read

[raw hazel]

alex more like

nerd

lmaoooooo

[sick yew]

What brings you down to lore chat

[raw hazel]

i like to keep people on their toes

[sick yew]

Uhuh

[bleak crow]

Isnt he on the witherhoard lore?

[dim minnow]

yeah

he used ot work for Drifter

then the Gambit Prime incident happened

ever since then, he turned himself around, chose to get into Vanguard work

[bleak crow]

this is the most warframe lore shit I’ve ever seen

[bleak crow]

Gambit prime incident?

[dim minnow]

back in season of the Drifter, a new Gambit mode was added called Gambit Prime

before Drifter officially started the mode, he had a test run using some people he hired

Joxer was one of them

[bleak crow]

[dim minnow]

Joxer ended up being the only member of his team to survive the incident

because the Primevals he used in Gambit Prime were something else

[bleak crow]

You know

[dim minnow]

and Joxer mainly survived because he was his team's invader

[cinder hatch]

Honestly lore wise I'm always surprised gambit never got shut down

[bleak crow]

maybe joxer was better off being dead, bros been through to much

😭🙏

[dim minnow]

disagree, he turned himself around

got better

his death was a tradgedy, but his sacrifice let us know that it was not a good idea to try and go through the portal just yet

[bleak crow]

Wasn’t it just harder gambit?

[bleak crow]

your right, mb

[dim minnow]

it was shorter, faster, and featured defined roles via specific armor sets

[cinder hatch]

You gotta remember the avg guardian is kinda ass compared to us

So harder gambit is risky af

[dim minnow]

and lore wise, the Primevals Drifter used were counterfeit Taken

aka Taken he created using the Haul

the Haul being the big thing his ship is towing

[bleak crow]

Is it ever explained how we are able to switch classes?

[dim minnow]

subclasses or classes?

[bleak crow]

or are we just Him

[dim minnow]

because we can't switch actual classes

[bleak crow]

subclasses sorry

[cinder hatch]

In lore most guardians can swap

They might not have all though

Sunbreaker titans are rare

[dim minnow]

lore wise, many Guardians are still trying to master their first subclass

[bleak crow]

what’s the most common crayon eater? It’s void right? Then warlock is arc, and hunter is solar?

[dim minnow]

but there are more skilled Guardians who know multiple

[cinder hatch]

Arc warlock is rare

[dim minnow]

ehhh

[bleak crow]

fr??? What’s the most common??

[dim minnow]

at this point, I wouldn't really say any specific subclass is rare

[cinder hatch]

The 3 subclasses from the taken king id assume are rarer

[bleak crow]

what about prismatic?

[cinder hatch]

Since you had to do something special

[dim minnow]

enough time has passed that a lot more Guardians had learned them

[cinder hatch]

Honestly id expect sunbreaker to just be the rarest

[dim minnow]

ok, that one is actually pretty new and is probably a lot harder to master in lore, so I'd say that one is kinda rare atm

[cinder hatch]

For regular light

Since didn't most sunbreaker titans get killed

[bleak crow]

I’m just gunna assume lore wise we’re the only one who have it, since it would require the guardian to learn all of the subclasses right?

[dim minnow]

the Sunbreaker order did take a heavy hit during the Red War, but since Taken King, I'd say the rarer subclasses were made more avalible to learn

I mean, there was never really anything stopping Guardians from not learning them

[cinder hatch]

I'd also assume strand probably isn't particularly common

[dim minnow]

all Guardians possess the innate abilities of these subclasses

the only issue is actually learning the techniques

[cinder hatch]

I don't think strand had the mass amount of usage like stasis did

[dim minnow]

Strand was still pretty new

[cinder hatch]

Strand also isn't handed out like stasis was

[bleak crow]

I always thought when someone becomes a guardian, they just like can only use one specific subclass and they don’t choose which one they get (lore wise)

[dim minnow]

and the stigma around using Darkness subclasses isn't exactly gone yet, even if it had greatly diminished

[dim minnow]

I don't think it was really said anywhere that there was a specific subclass they started with

the whole subclass and class system was really just a way to consolidate and simplify our abilities into techniques and disciplines

after all, our abilities go beyond cause and effect

[cinder hatch]

||Btw has the oryx echo figured out the witness is dead yet||

[dim minnow]

yeah

[cinder hatch]

Ok cool

[dim minnow]

and he's happy about it

he even called the Witness a charlatan

[cinder hatch]

Honestly really excited too see what happens in frontiers

I also wonder if we're gonna get nine stuff

Been waiting on something focused on the nine for awhile

[dim minnow]

well we are gettign Rites of the Nine next act

there's also those favors of the Nine we had been getting each week

[cinder hatch]

Oh god I haven't been getting those

[dim minnow]

and I also heavily theorize that the Nine are going to be heavily involved in Frontiers

[cinder hatch]

I forgot all about them

Maybe I'm mixing this up but didn't someone from the nine help screw us during the red war

Or was that someone else

[dim minnow]

one of the Nine did

it prevented the Guardians from foreseeing the Red Legion's arrival

[cinder hatch]

Something about the lore I've been meaning to look into is how the vex just don't well win

At everything

[dim minnow]

Paracausality

they can't simulate it

allows us to go crazy on them

[cinder hatch]

Ah ok because like time abilities are always broken as hell

[blazing wasp]

time abilities?

[dim minnow]

Vex sort of time travel

[cinder hatch]

Can't they be sent through time

[dim minnow]

it's complicated

[blazing wasp]

well yea

[dim minnow]

something about very accurate simulations

[cinder hatch]

When you have abilities like that your almost impossible to be put down

[blazing wasp]

if it was just outright simple and to the point time travel, they'd just time travel to when every species was at its weakest and kill em easily

[cinder hatch]

Every universe has its own time travel rules too

There could be a timeline

Where that happens

[dim minnow]

you also need to account for how Vex percieve things

they don't really recognize war, or malice, or compassion

or any of that

they have a voracious curiosity

[blazing wasp]

also isnt it a thing that vex can only "act" if they're able to simulate it, otherwise they can only react? or am i mistaken

[cinder hatch]

Vex interest me because we've encountered the peak of strength from all the enemy races

Except for the vex

Like we've fought the top fallen hive cabal but I'm pretty sure not the vex

Unless GoS raid boss is more important then I thought

[blazing wasp]

well for one, we dont even know if vex have combat frames

they probably dont, they dont need them

which is infinitely more terrifying imo

[blazing wasp]

somewhat important to the sol divisive part of the vex

[sick yew]

I mean we fought some very strong Vex in the past, Argos, Panoptes (yeah ik he was a campaign boss but technically speaking dude was quite strong)

[little gorge]

aren't the vex that invaded oryx's court described as combat frames

[sick yew]

I dont recall them being described in a way that we could even tell what that means

I personally dont doubt that Vex combat frames exist but Bungie is intentionally keeping them vague

[little gorge]

it's been a prominent enough idea in the community that even if they originally didn't exist bungie will probably find a way to write them in eventually

[sick yew]

If we do ever get another Vex focused expansion we probably will get to see them in some way

But Vex focused expansions are....tough

[little gorge]

it's so frustrating how they can't make a good vex expansion/season to save their lives

[sick yew]

Vex are by far the hardest faction to write

Because the concept that makes them so scary is exactly that theyre not really characters

Writing a Vex antagonist would humanize them and make them far less scary

[sick yew]

Vex simply work best as secondary baddies, look at season of Splicer for example

[bleak crow]

Is it ever explained how the traveler originally got that giant scar on the bottom side of it?

or was it from that scene in red war when it broke the chains

[sick yew]

No its from the Collapse

[bleak crow]

oh

[sick yew]

You know the "Shard of the Traveler" in the EDZ?

Thats that broken off piece

[bleak crow]

Can we even still go to the shard?

[sick yew]

uuuuh I dont think so no

[bleak crow]

I haven’t been there in years

[sick yew]

Maybe with some out of bounce stuff

Well actually if do PsiOps battleground EDZ

The end place is arguably the closest you can get to the Shard these days

[bleak crow]

I miss red war, it sucks they can’t bring it back

[sick yew]

But yeah essentially during the collapse the Traveler must have gotten hit by something causing a part of the Traveler's shell to break off

And we do also know that the Traveler was around the EDZ during the collapse cause of some random loretab from like season of fucking Worthy or sum

[bleak crow]

My friend said it basically self destructed during the collapse to fight back, not like kill itself self destruct, but like it basically released so much light it could be considered an explosion
(He was also high when saying this)

[sick yew]

We dont know for sure but that used to be the running theory

These days we know that Savathun also had a great deal of involvement in the Travelers survival

[blazing wasp]

several things happened, one of them being savathun getting involved

yea

[sick yew]

But the Traveler was indeed fighting back during the collapse

Light and Darkness clashed all around Sol

[blazing wasp]

she yoinked the veil which was gonna be used

[bleak crow]

also im lowkey confused, is Savathun a good guy or a bad guy? Because she helped us kill the witness, and now drifter is suddenly talking about beating the shit out of her

[sick yew]

Wellll

She is the hive god of trickery and shit

Shes plays all sides

[bleak crow]

so she’s neutral (kinda)

[sick yew]

Sorta?

[blazing wasp]

Savathun has her own agenda

[bleak crow]

I mean she still hates us

[sick yew]

She sometimes helps us, sometimes stands against us, sometimes neither, sometimes both

[blazing wasp]

If she benefits from us doing well, she helps us
if she benefits from us doing bad, she's opposed to us

[bleak crow]

probably because we beat the fuck out of oryx

[sick yew]

Nah she dont care about that

At least not anymore

Remember we killed Oryx back in D1

[bleak crow]

is kings fall crota or oryx?

[sick yew]

Oryx

Crotas End is...well Crota

[bleak crow]

I didn’t play d1 😭

[sick yew]

Neither did I

[bleak crow]

didn’t oryx body crash somewhere?

[sick yew]

On Titan yes

[blazing wasp]

She cares about oryx, but doesnt have a grudge because we killed him yea

[bleak crow]

it’s in ghost of the deep if I’m not wrong

[sick yew]

You can see it in the Ghosts of the Deep dungeon

[sick yew]

Correct

[bleak crow]

and wasn’t some witch tryna revive him?

[sick yew]

Yeah

Some Lucent Hive

Its unclear whether it even would have worked

[bleak crow]

how would that even of worked? Because can’t ghost not revive other people besides the guardian they chose?

[blazing wasp]

oryx actual carcass is technically alive, rather than oryx being alive, so the ghost couldnt just outright rez him

probably what the ritual was for

to "kill" the carcass, or to make the ghost be able to revive him anyway

[sick yew]

They probably tried to magic their way through that whole stick

[bleak crow]

I remember my friend saying she was going to give up her light to revive oryx

which if that’s not tier 3 simp idk what is

[sick yew]

its still possible the Traveler would have intervined aswell had the ritual continued

[bleak crow]

true

[sick yew]

Cause they were in essence trying to go around the rules

[blazing wasp]

ghosts can revive just about anyone iirc, they have "mental blockers" for a lack of a better word preventing some enemy races for being revived

[sick yew]

And the Traveler has taken action on such incidents in the past like when it blew up a Ghost that Rhulk was experimenting on

[blazing wasp]

If light is being taken, traveler get angy

[sick yew]

How a ghost chooses their Guardian is rather vague but its generally described as them just having a very strong feeling that this is who theyre supposed to resurrect
Before WQ Ghosts simply had no reason to believe they could resurrect Hive so they didnt

[bleak crow]

||is that why Targe couldn’t revive Zavala’s son?||

[blazing wasp]

yea

[blazing wasp]

No

Because targe revived zavala already.

[sick yew]

Absolutely not lmfao
Also no need to spoiler tag it

[blazing wasp]

when a ghost choses someone to rez, they're linked

[bleak crow]

Mb gang 🙏

[blazing wasp]

you can only rez that person you link to

A ghost may only have one guardian, and a guardian may only have one ghost

[sick yew]

And you cant change the link either

[hollow hinge]

But before linking it's fair game

[blazing wasp]

the act is permanent, you cannot gain a new ghost, you cannot get a new guardian

[sick yew]

hm?

[blazing wasp]

doesnt matter what happens to the guardian or the ghost

[bleak crow]

Wait so they can technically revive hundreds of people as long as they don’t link?

[blazing wasp]

no

[bleak crow]

Or does it auto link

[blazing wasp]

you link by reviving them.

[bleak crow]

Oh ok

[blazing wasp]

the link is metaphorical here

[bleak crow]

[blazing wasp]

if this wasnt the case, there would probably be lots of ghosts who just dont link with people and revive anyone who died

which would be insanely overpowered

[bleak crow]

do we know who the first guardian was? And if they are still alive?

[blazing wasp]

we dont know, lots of folks probably got rez'd at the same time

[sick yew]

As Uke said we dont know of a "first guardian" but there are quite a few of the really early ones that are still kicking

Drifter, Saladin, Shaxx to name a few

[torpid flint]

What u gonna do about it... clanker?

[inner drift]

I think it’s likely that the first wave of guardians were all resurrected so closely together time wise that the difference would be measured in seconds

It’s probably the case that the “first guardian” was resurrected about 2 seconds before the second

Still it’d be neat to know

[sick yew]

Was Oryx's title navigator even before this season btw?

Like was that just another thing he was referred to as besides Taken King

[trim grotto]

The First Navigator
Books of Sorrow

[sick yew]

Ah okay
Cause I just realized the gotd exotic is also called Navigator and was wondering whether it was clever setup or just callback

[chrome fog]

My Beloved Akashic Revelation

Oh how I loved using you for theory crafting

[sick yew]

Whats the leading theory anyway?

Joxer gets flashes of his life before being a guardian?

Its the only mention of an Eric in all of Ishtar

[slim girder]

Yes that is the theory. Since the portal was created using the veil an artefact of darkness which is connected to memory

[sick yew]

But wouldnt that imply that Guardians have their old memories theyre just blocked off?

[chrome fog]

Yes, the way it implicated that Joxer felt all the experiences his body had gone through both pre- and post-resurrection as well as the allusion to the Akashic Records - a pseudo-religious Mac huff in used in a lot of fiction either as a thing of ultimate power or to rewrite reality (as it’s described as a literal record everything that is, was, and will ever be) hinted to us that the Pale Heart, the inside of the Traveler, was much the same

Which Cayde spells out for us when talking about his bet with Andal Brask

[slim girder]

Could be. Guardians aren't completely blank slates, like imagine you had a habit and then in your next life you still developed that habit. Some things are just ingrained into your being

[chrome fog]

I was fuckin crazy about this theory when the ship dropped

[sick yew]

Do we know that for a fact?

[slim girder]

Yes. Ikora talks about this

[sick yew]

Theres only two guardians who this really could be tested on, Crow and Ana

[chrome fog]

Also consider that the Veil is described as a sort of Black Box for all the memories of the universe and that the Traveler is connected to it, meaning it might have access to those memories

[slim girder]

To be born without any kind of memory is to be born without any sort of bias or anything.

[sick yew]

And Crow cant even count because he literally got his memories handed to him

[slim girder]

This has been touched on. Uldren held his breath before firing a sniper, crow did the same when he technically shouldn't have any memory of doing that

Nuture vs nature

[sick yew]

I mean obviously guardians retain some form of mechanical knowledge otherwise they'd be infants upon resurrection and had to relearn everything

[dapper moss]

just like how my guardian busted out some sick moves despite never knowing how to dance

the guardian was a partier in their past life

[slim girder]

Exactly. They might not have memories from their previous life but it seems habits and traits are still intact in a way.
Caydes gambling habits

For example

[sick yew]

I mean Cayde is a hunter if they aint a gambler at heart they get kicked off the tower

[ember storm]

crow exhibited uldren's characteristics long before

he'd close his eyes right before a confirmed shot and had the same enjoyment from telling stories like uldren did

[chrome fog]

There’s also that quote from Seth on a AMA where someone asks about writing a Guardian that would need disability assistance such as a wheel chair or crutches, because they wanted to make a character that was representative of them; Seth said something to the effect that “Whatever state the Guardian is brought back as, it is as the Traveler needed them to be”

[sick yew]

The Traveler did indeed need Osiris as an old bald guy

In addition, we know that the Pale Heart specifically resonates with the memories of the people who enter it correct?

Thats why Zavalas old house is there or the cosmodrome and shit

But shouldnt this theoretically speaking escalated when every guardian and their mother entered the Pale Heart for the final battle with the Witness? Ik theres obviously a gameplay limitation but theoretically speaking....

[slim girder]

Yes.
The darkness shows memories and the light makes these memories real

[sick yew]

Half the fucking Solar System should be floating around in the Pale Heart rn

[ember storm]

resonated

[slim girder]

It should yes but for the purposes of the final shape it's just for the first few people who entered

[ember storm]

iirc it was only for a short period of time as it formed

[sick yew]

eeeeh thats boring

[chrome fog]

Yes; I believe the way it interacts with all the individuals within it is that, the Pale Heart was initially just an undisturbed repository of any and everything (think the API holding all the models and textures of the game) but is being affected and influenced by all these consciousnesses entering in it, molding the landscape to be the way it is

[sick yew]

My headcanon now has the Pale Heart be half as big as Sol and house fucking everything

[ember storm]

your face is boring

[chrome fog]

I think it’s endless, or it goes as far as you think it does

[slim girder]

And some of that stuff is in the threshold before the pale heart.
Like when you spawn in the first mission the first thing you walk across is the kings fall final room

[sick yew]

I mean it sure looks infinite when you run around in it and it does check out, again there is the obvious gameplay component

[chrome fog]

It’s the White Hot Room from Marvel, or uhhhh I don’t have anything else allegorical to compare it to

It’s a space for creation

[slim girder]

The whole place is a clash of light and dark.
Again memories from the nature of darkness made real by the creation nature of light

[sick yew]

Some things in there do still be a bit odd to me
Like the Hive Sisters that are fused into the Pale Heart version of the io tree of silver wings

[chrome fog]

So it is as it needs to be

[sick yew]

Must have come from the Witness no?

[slim girder]

The memories of the witness are there as well yes

[sick yew]

Yeah duh but why the Hive sisters

[ember storm]

hurh

[chrome fog]

Oh! The Backyward from Guilty Gear! That was my closest approximation!

[ember storm]

they're in the awoken area

more specifically just savathun

because savathun is intrinsically tied to the dreaming city now

[sick yew]

Savathun hadnt been in the pale heart before us did she?

oh

I see where youre coming from

hm

[ember storm]

it came from us collectively, more specifically crow

he inherently ties savathun to the dc now

its where they first met and all

[sick yew]

It was the center of the Io cradle tho, an area I attribute more to Ikora, there is a bit of space between that and the Awoken stuff

[ember storm]

well they're entirely seperate areas

so idk what you mean

[sick yew]

Is this place me mean

Which is seperate from the Awoken themed area beforehand

You dont see any of the Dreaming City type shit around there

Its just mirroring the Io cradle

[ember storm]

yeah thats just because savathun fucked with the tree during arrivals, probably

we tie that in to that

[sick yew]

hmmmmmm good call actually