📚lore-discussion

[split aurora]

Is the new cutscene the first time we see Xivu post becoming a hive god

[jagged badge]

No

It’s the first proper, full look we’ve gotten for her but

We’ve seen the hints of this design

[split aurora]

Well thats what I meant, thank you

[zinc kite]

question about the new act 2 story ||is eris' throne world located on the dreadnaught? or does anyone know where else it would be?||

[sleek matrix]

Its in the ascendant plane

The dreadnought has a connection to the plane thats why we used the sword to make a tear

[chrome fog]

Exactly what I said

[zinc kite]

gotcha thank you so much, makes alot more sense

[chrome fog]

Specifically the Dreadnaught’s interior is/was/still is Oryx’s Throneworld, which itself rests on the Ascendent Plane

[sleek matrix]

Yes

[zinc kite]

isnt all of shattered throne also in the ascendant plane? last question

[sleek matrix]

Yea

Mara throne world

[chrome fog]

Yes, it was Mara’s attempt at a Throneworld until Oryx smashed it up

[zinc kite]

oh i did not know that

[sleek matrix]

It wasn't an attempt

She had a throne world

[zinc kite]

thats alot more interesting then

[sleek matrix]

But when oryx did the blast in taken king she got taken

And so did he throne world get infected

[chrome fog]

Considering it’s not much a Throneworld and more the tatters of one spread across the Ascendent Plane, attempt

[sleek matrix]

Until we killed oryx that freed her

[sleek matrix]

Its not as big as savathun or oryx

But its still a throne world

Eris throne world is smaller

But it still counts

[chrome fog]

I’m just saying it’s, like the title suggests, Shattered

And so it’s very pitiful compared to most other Throneworlds we’ve come across

[zinc kite]

wait, whats stopping mara from using it as a throne world still since eris is able to use hers in the ascendant plane?

guessing she just isnt connected to it anymore and hasnt saught out to reconnect somehow?

[sleek matrix]

Its corrupted

[zinc kite]

rip, and im guessing theres a reason why current dreaming city isnt being used/transformed into a throne world?

unless all of dreaming city is currupted, which would explain the blight

[sleek matrix]

Yea

Riven curse

[zinc kite]

gotcha, thanks so much for the lore

alot more interesting then i was thinking for those points

[jagged badge]

She can and has used it

It’s just perilous to because it’s perpetually full of Hive and Taken

If she died, went back her Throne World and then was caught by Dul Incaru and her forces, she’d risk dying permanently

[trim grotto]

I enjoy the term "used it" in this context because it makes it sound like she thought, yes, today seems like a nice day to violently perish and reincarnate

[eager trout]

What's the closest thing we have to a playable Rhulk glaive?

Why is the Relic on Mars and what exactly is it in?

[hollow hinge]

Literally the glaive from Vow

[eager trout]

...there's one?

[hollow hinge]

Lubrae's Ruin

[trim grotto]

The leading theory is that every stolen world had a Relic and it was used to scour the timeline of the worlds. Since Savathûn stole Mars back early, it remained on the planet.

[eager trout]

Thanks

[eager trout]

Which worlds were stolen?

That does explain the time things

[trim grotto]

Mars, Mercury, Io, and Titan.

Titan was returned after the process was finished, and is thus free from the scars that mark Mars's surface.

[jagged badge]

In fairness, wasn’t it planned both times?

[trim grotto]

Well, yes
At least it was the first time
I'm not sure if the second was a failsafe or not

[eager trout]

Where Mercury?

[ember storm]

Still gone

As is Io last I checked

[scenic nimbus]

is the whisper exotic mission chronologically the first thing to do? even before forsaken endgame stuff?

[eager trout]

But...Season of the Deep

[ember storm]

What about it

[jagged badge]

That took place on Titan

[eager trout]

Wait, nvm, Io

[chrome fog]

Timeline wise? Or like in content that’s available?

[trim grotto]

Yes and no. Technically it's post campaign content of Warmind, but the modern version of the mission is presented as a meditation of a past event.

[scenic nimbus]

timeline

[scenic nimbus]

gotcha, I ended up doing it first before forsaken

[chrome fog]

Timeline wise, not at all, we start all the way from specifically D1 - which the D2 New Light mission is a recreation of. From there, all the expansions and events which happen in release order are what we do next and in that same order

[scenic nimbus]

I did it first because of its connection to warmind and how Xol, Will of the Thousands first appeared there

[eager trout]

Ok, I'm making a Sjur Eido/Awoken themed Hunter build, armor, etc

What should I use to be lore-accurate?

[meager coral]

wish ender

[trim grotto]

Wishender and Oathkeeper are the obvious picks but I can't say it'd be effective
Oathkeepers are... Mild.

[eager trout]

Planning to get the Wishender catalyst

Ok, match up idea

Guardians vs

[slim girder]

Oath keepers are for the true bow lovers

The damage they provide is nice but I do think the charge could be faster.

[slim girder]

We've killed bigger things.

[eager trout]

Any faster and you could fire normally

[eager trout]

That image is misleading

The robot is MUCH bigger than that

[slim girder]

That's another thing. It's a robot. Guardians are more than capable of blowing apart robots regardless of size such as insurrection prime.

Or other big vex

[eager trout]

Well, a mech piloted by what is essentially a living android turned "god" using forbidden knowledge and the power source of an "actual" god

With mastery over almost all the elements

The red line is about as tall as one of the tallest playable characters in Genshin looks while standing right beside the mech

At least it should be between the tallest and a medium-sized character

[eager trout]

It's not just a robot, it's what I explained

It's actually so powerful that it (technically) won in a lot of the 168 time loops it was put through (in a dream), and to defeat it the protagonist needed the knowledge of all those loops, plus the suggestions of basically everyone else in the city.

[slim girder]

Idk it is still a mech housing a smaller being. Remove the mech and how strong is that smaller being controlling it.

[eager trout]

I mean, the being is pretty much attached to the mech. The mech is part of the being. And the fight is against the mech as a whole.

Also, it has a wipe attack

In terms of attacks, it has similar attacks to Savathun

But much bigger

Ok, think...an exo piloting a building-sized mech powered by [whatever source of unlimited energy there is in Destiny] given "divine" knowledge ("made" of Darkness or something) that would drive a normal human crazy, and can wield the Light, as well as manifest his presence like the Witness

Ok, better matchup

Someone (anyone) vs

Strengths: has the power of both Harmony and Order (basically Strand and Stasis, at least conceptually), was able to put an entire star system under what is essentially the Final Shape (a dream where everyone gets their perfect reality) and almost did it to the whole universe

Probably on the same level as the Witness, if not stronger

(Base Witness, no pyramids, Veil, or Traveler)

Why does Rhulk have one eye that is different?

[sick yew]

Unknown, maybe they all have it, maybe it's a condition

[sick yew]

Also why are you trying to powerscale two completely different franchises to each other

[eager trout]

Fun

[sick yew]

Then who do you want to win

[desert pebble]

drifter saying "she's gone because I cared" is pretty deep coming from a guy who killed his own expedition and gagged his ghost out of curiosity

character development

[blazing wasp]

Wasn't curiosity

Paranoia, from all sides

And in their minds, needed to survive

[hazy veldt]

i know how this may sound

but i swear i ask of pure curiosity

upon resurrection, do guardians lose their ability to procreate

it probably was answered somewhere

[hazy veldt]

actually 2 eyes differ from others, most probably its just design with no deeper meaning

[sick yew]

Alien species we only ever saw one of so there really is no way to tell

[hazy veldt]

in lore it was stated somewhere that a probe was sent to coordinates of lubrae, ill try to find item itself rn

maybe this "probe" will have some role in the future

nvm it was said in a twid

[blazing wasp]

the twid had lore relevance

[willow dagger]

How does oryx’s sword make Eris stronger?

[hazy veldt]

tributes and stuff

if im right, the same sword beheaded xivu arath and savathun (possibly A LOT of times)

same sword slimed akka, same sword expanded oryx's throne world and killed mara

[next bobcat]

iirc the sword is oryx’s blade on crota’s hilt, but it’s not the blade Eris used to make her throne, that was just a generic sword.

[next bobcat]

Killed Mara? What? I haven’t heard about that before

[blazing wasp]

the one eris used to make her throne is a normal sword u can get yes
but oryx killed xivu and savathun a lot

with his sword

[fluid peak]

Mara died in taken king

She gambled with her life that the guardians would be able to pick up the slack while she rested in her throne world she made with wish magic

[next bobcat]

Interesting

[jagged badge]

Unknown, but signs point to them not being able to. There’s a line from Saladin’s Ghost saying that he can never have children. We also know that Zavala’s son was an orphan he and Safiyah adopted. And we’ve never once heard elsewhere in the lore of a Lightbearer actually having a child

[fluid peak]

I imagine they can't purely because bungie doesn't want to even touch the implications of guardian resurrection and pregnancy

[next bobcat]

Also, what would the implications of that be? Would the child be connected to the traveler?

[fluid peak]

Very good question! Where does the parent end and the child begin? How does the child react to being connected to the light at some point presumably? That's something I think bungie probably really don't want to touch

[next bobcat]

It confuses me

[fluid peak]

On the first part, do ghosts resurrect the children as well? Ghost resurrection and the actual process is still a bit of a mystery

[sick yew]

I sometimes wonder how spontaneous the travelers idea of ghosts and by extensions guardians were
Had it considered the option for long, weight out pros and cons of such a warrior and power or did it just come up with them in the heat of the moment

[hazy veldt]

yk when he blew up awoken fleet in rings of saturn

that blast was conjured with his blade

[sick yew]

So I just remembered this isnt the first time the portrayed Xivu in this type of composition

Its double funny cause its a very clear reference to the famous shot from the original Nosferatu movie

This one

I wonder if theyll ever get the chance to use this in some way

Would be very cool to have a skybox of a gigantic Xivu just looming there

[chrome fog]

Xol was most definitely bigger than this thing, and he was the smallest of the Worm Gods

[chrome fog]

Also this is the only answer ever to powerscaling

[chrome fog]

It sure as hell wasn't for funsies, Drifter and his crew were stuck outside of the Sol System with their ghosts unable to access their Light and weird Darkness beings hunting them down. Aside from the idea being from Drifter's Ghost itself (which even to Drifter was off because up to that point his Ghost had been trying to push him towards a more conventional Guardian path but was nonetheless proud of him in the end before the process took away its ability to speak), they were damn desperate to find a way off that rock without dying a Final Death

[chrome fog]

Curiously and frustratingly, no! There's two instances of the topic of a Guardian wanting a child - Zavala and Saladin respectively - yet it never clarifies if this is an issue only for them or if it's a general Lightbearer issue (however I believe unless proven otherwise it's leaning towards "Guardians cannot create children" from how we have these two examples already given and the possible conflict with the gift the Traveler has already Given to Lightbearers, that being their Ghosts and the Light and Ressurection that comes with having their Ghost)

[trim grotto]

I actually significantly disagree. They are, in my opinion, a noob trap. The rework did not help them.

Breaking down the image, we have a few things to look at.
First: Very slightly faster draw time of 10. It's the equivalent of a Masterwork, and 26 points less than the lowest draw time affecting bow string. Basically useless.
Second: AE. Basically useless.
Third: Infinite perfect draw. Okay, sure. Sort of useful, but only if you're sitting there, not firing, holding the bowstring, waiting for an enemy. This doesn't even work with Wishender that well, as Wishender got a nerf wherein the truesight wears off now.
Fourth: Damage increase. This only increases every half a second up to a +150%... or, you could just fire twice in the same period of time.
This issue is exacerbated by the fact that it only works on initial impact, meaning there is no Exotic Bow where this perk fully buffs the entire weapon. Wishender is particularly affected by this as it has three damage instances.

If we cut away the first three points which are nearly useless for PvE, we basically have a damage increase for bows that only works if you don't fire them. At this point, why use Oathkeepers at all over... say, Foetracer?

They're terrible for PvE and only useful for a hard-drawing laner in PvP.

Oathkeepers make me sad.

[ember storm]

real life mael lore

[trim grotto]

I just want the funny bow exotic to be good

[ember storm]

i dont think ive ever equipped it

[trim grotto]

I've used it in PvP before. I tried it in PvE after the rework and was... underwhelmed.

[chrome fog]

Definitely reads as a noobtrap/starter exotic with the Infinite Draw Time, which is handy when trying to nail down targeting with a bow but eventually it'll make a Guardian complacent with how long they can hold the draw

[trim grotto]

Aye. It also stops you from learning the Perfect Draw mechanic.

[chrome fog]

It's perfectly fine for story/narrative building a character you're writing or designing cause there's no constraints on how, when, or where you are drawing unlike in-game, but practicality gameplay-wise it's noobtrap material

[trim grotto]

It doesn't even work for Leviathan's Breath at all!

Like yeah that'd just be a massive gimmick

But it'd be a funny gimmick

[chrome fog]

What's that look like, the interaction if it were to work?

[trim grotto]

Just more damage. I mean, the draw buff is still there, sure, but a Champion delete button in the form of a buffed Leviathan's Breath would be funny. Sort of like the role Izanagi's Burden used to fill.

[sick yew]

Hang on this isnt lore

[trim grotto]

_>

<_<

It could be

[sick yew]

[chrome fog]

For a guardian! Potentially! Which was technically how this started!

[sick yew]

ill let it slide seeing that Titans are in the lead for today

[chrome fog]

Eevee did say they were looking for Awoken kits that would be very lore accurate, Mael's just explaining that in-game Oathkeepers-Wishender no work no good despite the theming

[trim grotto]

The combo is still the "lore accurate" option for a Sjur build

[ember storm]

alternatively

[trim grotto]

But 'tis what 'tis

[ember storm]

pick a good exotic with a cool awoken ornament

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/true-it-is-true-roblox-you-dont-want-to-see-me-infuriated-roblox-fruit-gif-1640128207315121295

[trim grotto]

I mean, Wishender is still fine. Fantastic Anti-Barrier weapon. You'd just need to find a good armour exotic.

[sick yew]

Wait a minute
We canonically keep a fucking stamp card with us whenever we decode shit?

[trim grotto]

He gives us the stamp card at the start of each Episode

[sick yew]

Lmfao

[trim grotto]

Welcome to the Engrams Ensiders Club! Focusing valuable gear will earn you AMAZING PRIZES! Punches are redeemable for access to Rahool's advanced focusing techniques!

At the bottom of the card is a line of cramped text:

Master Rahool and the Cryptarch's Union are not liable for any death, disintegration, dismemberment, or other injury sustained in pursuit of engrams. Terms and conditions may apply.```

[ember storm]

also the reason we have to rank him up again is because he invalidates and throws away the old one

[trim grotto]

no, we lost the last one

[ember storm]

potted plant brain guardian

how i missed you

[fast tapir]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1005225565382525000/1338737954159464539/89csyreva1ie1-ezgif.com-video-to-gif-converter.gif

[chrome fog]

I do hope they keep the thing where completing the stamp card lets you decrypt any missing armor exotics

[trim grotto]

I imagine they will, given that it's literally the only way to earn any FS and post-FS Exotics, bar the Legend campaign.

[slim girder]

This is all a very valid argument and you are absolutely correct.
I still think they would be for bow lovers though. Like rn they aren't very good but all it would take is 1 tweak and they could be something crazy.
It's like Actium war rig or lucky pants, you like that specific weapons those exotics will amplify those weapons.

[trim grotto]

Lucky Pants got the level of rework that the Oathkeepers also deserved

[sick yew]

@trim grotto With Jimmy reappearing do you think we might actually get some lore on him?

[trim grotto]

haha no

[chrome fog]

Who's Jimmy?

[sick yew]

Jimmy, Aspect of Placeholding

[slim girder]

He's probably going to be a throwaway joke like randal

[sick yew]

it was a name bug in Whisper but they brought him back for the new boss rush mode

[jagged badge]

Well

[jagged badge]

The boss itself is called Tulgorh, but the text for the objective still says Jimmy

It’s not intentional

[sick yew]

Hes too strong to be contained

He shall remain

[eager trout]

How big is Xol? Because worms are usually long, not big per se

[eager trout]

shrug

[ember storm]

he's described as the runt of the litter

you can see how big xita, the mother worm is in vow

[eager trout]

Oh

[ember storm]

also oryx literally just hacked up akka's corpse to construct the deadnaught

[eager trout]

And for reference that's how big...?

[ember storm]

the part at the top right there is rhulk's boss room

with the platform

[trim grotto]

boss arena

[sleek matrix]

The upended

[ember storm]

THE UPENDED

[sick yew]

Well whoever you want to win wins
Youre the writer in this scenario so you decide the outcome

Thats the fundamental issue with trying to powerscale between universes

[ember storm]

shadow the hedgehog always wins

this is not up for debate

[eager trout]

I just want the most realistic and lore-accurate outcome

[sick yew]

There is none

Its non canon

If I want an ant to defeat god then within the realm of my story thats the realistic outcome

[trim grotto]

Also it's robot vs... paracausal god entity from a different universe
kinda hard to compare

[eager trout]

But technically the Guardians will always win because they can go through infinite cycles to learn what they need to do

[sleek matrix]

If its sci fi anything is possible

[trim grotto]

Uh well no

Not really

[eager trout]

More like proto-god mech

[ember storm]

you should play sonic x shadow generations on steam, xbox one, ps5, and nintendo switch

[sick yew]

if you so decide that the entity cannot kill the ghosts then yes
If you want the other way around they just blast the guardian and crush the ghost....the end

[trim grotto]

Like, Raid wipes aren't canon
The "canon" for Raids is that there aren't any wipes, no redos

We don't get infinite tries

[sick yew]

I mean the canon for raids usually doesnt even include mechanics

Mostly just a whole bunch of shooting

[eager trout]

Ok, yeah, that's entirely possible

[trim grotto]

Well I wouldn't say that

[sleek matrix]

We can easily be killed

[sick yew]

Realistically speaking a whole bunch of raid mechanics just literally dont make sense
I highly doubt guardians in the vault of glass were running between portals for 2 minutes switching relics around and getting "locked out" for 40 seconds each time

[ember storm]

not me

i am better

[eager trout]

One thing though, the only noticeable physical damage that the mech received it quickly regenerated, and it wasn't even full damage, just a crack

[sick yew]

Im not saying raid mechanics arent canon at all, there are obvious exceptions
But I highly doubt they play out even remotely like they do ingame

[eager trout]

It makes sense if you take into account that they're fighting the Vex

[sleek matrix]

Ron was a good one for how they used the light and dark themes

[sick yew]

Not really
Why would the vex include a 45 second teleporter lockout if someone were to carry a relic through it

[eager trout]

Technically the mechanic doesn't exist, it's more the Vex trying to do something and the Guardians preventing it

[eager trout]

Could simply be a side effect, not an intentional mechanic by the Vex

Or it could be a security protocol

[sick yew]

Trying to bend your way into trying to put sense into mechanics doesnt lead anywhere
Put simply raids in canon play out different than they do ingame just like a shit ton of other things lore vs ingame

Thats just the nature of Destiny also being a video game

[sleek matrix]

I also dont think it would be a good idea to even design raids like that

It would be very limiting

[sick yew]

Obviously

[sleek matrix]

Gameplay comes first for raids

[eager trout]

I'd say the true version of each raid is contest mode

[sick yew]

No?

[eager trout]

The Guardians go in blind

Face a hard challenge

[sleek matrix]

Its a personal choice

[sick yew]

If I today do my first crota run I also go in blind

[sleek matrix]

If you wanna do a raid blind or not

[eager trout]

And have to figure out how to progress using the things that were already there

[sleek matrix]

But i will say doing the recent stuff blind is very tough

Not everyone can put that time in

[sick yew]

Another good example is Witness dps
You really think the Witness would perform an attack that you simply jump over?

[ember storm]

the guardian is simply incredibly based

remember deducing the last wish from savathun's wings

[sleek matrix]

A few inches off the ground

[ember storm]

we just saw that

and noted it down

[sick yew]

[ember storm]

nobody else did

[sleek matrix]

That was so bad

Because the tower had savathun body for ages

And no one noticed it?

[ember storm]

Because she was just being dissected

You can’t see her back when she’s on an operating table

[sleek matrix]

Yea but if that was there the whole time

[sleek matrix]

But during an autopsy wouldn't they check

Also who even did that to savathun

[ember storm]

Eris

[eager trout]

Wait, what happened with Savathun?

[sick yew]

We killed her, her ghost ran away and we took her body to the tower

[trim grotto]

At which point?

[ember storm]

https://tenor.com/view/savathun-destiny-destiny2-cringe-dies-of-cringe-gif-26787939

[sick yew]

Then Hive god Eris had her resurrected and then killed her again to absorb years of build up power to briefly become the most powerful hive god ever

[ember storm]

1st death (mortal)

https://tenor.com/view/savathun-the-witch-queen-destiny2-dont-say-i-didnt-warn-you-gif-25297306

Second death (Lightbearer, end of the WQ campaign)

https://tenor.com/view/savathun-destiny-2-season-of-the-witch-dies-of-cringe-hive-gif-13308682944884160959

Third death (also Lightbearer, end of season of the witch)

[sick yew]

Then dont forget the 50 deaths Saint did as revenge for Osiris

[ember storm]

Not on my k/d, doesn’t count

[eager trout]

The wing things, what did you notice and deduce?

[trim grotto]

The last wish wall code, relating to Season of the Wish's entire plot point.

[sick yew]

What exactly is it doing there

[eager trout]

Oh

[sick yew]

Did she do that? Are there Hive Tattoo artists specialized on this?

[sleek matrix]

Thats what i was wondering

[sick yew]

Or is it just a side effect of her resurrection

[sleek matrix]

It could of been the output of the wish too

[trim grotto]

It was not a side effect of her resurrection

[sick yew]

So Hive tattoo art then

Where do I sign up

[sleek matrix]

I think it was more than likely savathun actually

She is meant to be the hive god of trickery

[sick yew]

I mean yeah but she aint the riddler

[sleek matrix]

She kinda is

There was the mission at the end of season of the witch

[meager coral]

She absolutely loves riddles she speaks in them like 70% of the time

[sleek matrix]

She was playing us for fools

[sick yew]

She gains power from lies and tricks she doesnt have to actually place the answers anywhere no?

[sleek matrix]

Yea

[sleek matrix]

Yes but the answers being right infront of us

[sick yew]

Sure she likes to mess with us but thats a bit very specific no?

[sleek matrix]

That feeds into her power

[sick yew]

Someone please check under her doormat there might be a key hidden there

[sleek matrix]

I would also assume

[meager coral]

She’s not necessarily strictly against us, she plays with us a lot but frequently she wants us to find out the information we’re searching for

[sleek matrix]

Bungie took inspiration from the riddler

I know i would if i was at bungie

[sick yew]

True but giving us the metaphorical key to her nuclear powerplant and main source of power?

[sleek matrix]

Savathun wanted us to stop the witness

[sick yew]

When she was running around cosplaying Osiris she didnt put little calling cards and shit around for us to figure it out

[sleek matrix]

But she didnt wanna just give us the answers like that

Wheres the fun in that as savathun would say

[meager coral]

I think she knows realistically we are the best chance of defeating the witness (the lucent brood attacking us in the pale heart she references if we can’t even beat them we have no chance) but it’s in her nature she likes a bit of fun lol

[sleek matrix]

The hive gods used to kill each other for fun

[sick yew]

You could write that up as a gameplay thing but yeah it does check out ig

[sleek matrix]

And to get better

[eager trout]

If it were that simple she could just never say the truth and become super powerful

[eager trout]

The what?

[sleek matrix]

Deception and confusion

Is savathun motto

[sick yew]

She was continously feeding on the curse of the dreaming city

[sleek matrix]

Savathun is always scheming

And this season wont be any different

I would pay close attention to savathun the most

She is trying get out the game in a way

[meager coral]

I think the reasoning lies in savathun is a complex character, she has personality, she’s not inherently evil, and takes joy in toying with our one sided worldview, trying to display in ways we understand not to be pawns in a greater beings game (dual destiny highlights this)

[sick yew]

I'm still convinced she has a plan to stop Eris' plan

[sleek matrix]

Savathun is trying to show us theres always another way

Dual destiny was an example

[sleek matrix]

Savathun knew eris was in her throne world

She hoped eris would stay stuck there

[slim girder]

When was eris in her throne world?

[sleek matrix]

When the subjugator killed eris

[slim girder]

That was eris throne world

[sleek matrix]

Yea

[slim girder]

You made it sound like eris was in savethuns throne

[chrome fog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnmQRGx-pcU
Actually thinking on it, I think Oryx's Kingsfall finale fight is bigger and equally comparable to the guy you showed

[sleek matrix]

Some worm gods are bigger or smaller than others

[chrome fog]

We've already said this, and Xol is the smallest of his siblings

But comparable to the proto-god mech from Genshin Impact that they shared, Oryx is more similar for the comparison

[chrome fog]

Guess what she did for about a year?

Possess Orisis while he was mourning the death of his Ghost, Sagira, and masquerade as him until Season of the Splicer!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqsEFZWVMzg

And her perspective possessing Osiris and going about the Last City during Season of the Splicer (first link), which is then followed up in the opening of the next season (second link)
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/vii-ripe#book-beneath-the-endless-night
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m66uUp8Xs-I

As the lorebook entry that I linked illustrates, Savathun was, in fact, able to just keep lying about who she was and accrue tithe from doing so, but she didn't realize that doing so had overfed her worm and made its hunger outpace her ability to feed it, which is when she fell back onto her plan to become a Lightbearer

[ember storm]

I honestly have no clue why they went with this and not just like

We find it carved in the imbaru engine final room or something

[eager trout]

Ok, Xol looks longer but not generally bigger

Why is Akelous so big?

[chrome fog]

He's the size of a damn building

Like, more than 2 stories tall

[eager trout]

How tall is a single story?

And you mean in terms of length or width?

[chrome fog]

He's wide enough to take up a moderately sized apartment and. that robot dude you posted is, at best, like 2-3 stories tall\

But barring Xol, I think the Guardian can take on a Proto-God mech considering we killed the Taken King himself, Oryx, who is comparable as a humanoid boss and equally if not as ginormous and also being a Hive God

Granted we crippled his power by basically tearing down his power structure and killing all his avenues of tithes, but we still had to kill all of his Court to then subsequently kill him

[trim grotto]

Akelous doesn't really have any lore other than just... being Sol Divisive. It's a similar model to the Consecrated Mind.

[slim girder]

Kinda miss the big vex. Panoptes and argos I think were really cool.
Belmon not so much even though he was big.

[eager trout]

Vegs

[empty fern]

Zydron :3

[lean comet]

They need to make an absolutely gargantuan vex boss like throne world oryx big

[ember storm]

https://tenor.com/view/delet-this-destiny-destiny2-panoptes-delete-this-gif-21537604

They did

[next bobcat]

The hell is this? It looks sick

[ember storm]

Antagonist of the absolute peak of D2, curse of Osiris

Panoptes the infinite mind

[next bobcat]

Damn it’s like a hydra minotaur

With wyvern wings

[little gorge]

the peak of d2 if d2 was mysteriously taken offline after curse of osiris

[dim minnow]

I like to imagine a massive Vex unit similar in design to the Alien Queen from Independence Day

[empty fern]

It’s just a jar of yogurt inside a giant mech

(Yes this is a LDR reverence)

[eager trout]

What's LDR?

[lean comet]

Yeah but more like a walking kind like a Minotaur

[lean comet]

Like a vex version of this? Heck yeah that would look freaking awesome

[tall lake]

Who do you guys think ? Who is trying to control taken?

[eager trout]

Who's Taox?

[dim minnow]

Advisor to the Osmium King

The king being the father of the three sisters who would later become the Hive Gods

She betrayed the king and tried to kill off his lineage which was the event that led to the three sisters finding the Worm Gods

[scenic nimbus]

what can you still do from the Curse of Osiris expansion? like dungeons or exotic missions and such?

[empty fern]

Love death and robots (tv show)

[eager trout]

Ah

[eager trout]

Some are saying Taox may be commanding the Taken

[empty fern]

Oh yeah so act 2 spoilers
||YALL think we can tie the echo and oryx to eriss throne world to finally seal them? And do you think a romance will come out between Eris and drifter, will Eris throne world collapse after dealing with oryx?||

[quiet yacht]

spoilers for act 2 ||i have a question with orxy why is he supporting us even tho we go against his ideals like we die and come back ||

[empty fern]

We beat him fair and square,

[dim minnow]

We killed him, and proved that we are greater

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-oryx-gif-27660572

ALSO

Thoughts on xivu design? ||instead of bulky warrior, she seems more like a commander?||

Or is this just post severance from season of the witch

[quiet yacht]

in my head i thought she would be more war like

[empty fern]

Maybe just depowered
Or she works behind the scenes instead

Or she just commands ALOT of war moons

[empty fern]

Ah well, she’s got a sword in hand i. Second pic

[quiet yacht]

she kind of looks different

but not too different from savathun

honestly if i had no idea about two of them i would say savathun looks more like a hive god of war

[empty fern]

Oh wow, not even google has xivu reveal on images yet

[empty fern]

She queen :3
Very political and cunning

Honestly

So any of the hive siblings fit their themes?

[quiet yacht]

true

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/oryx-the-taken-king-gif-25284412

Also

[empty fern]

Wonder why bungie is moving on to these kind of cutscenes now

Maybe it’s just easier? Or a different approach

[quiet yacht]

no way its easier it would take way more to animate

[empty fern]

True

[quiet yacht]

like this would look easy to do

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-destiny-witness-me-when-on-my-way-gif-27570628

Maybe it’s just camera movement vs animating models

[quiet yacht]

maybe

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/mara-sov-baru-shadeshadeshade-barubaru-destiny2-gif-19326972

Will miss this studio though

[quiet yacht]

absolute banger

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-gif-21843382

Oh found something neat

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-2-guardian-lightbearer-crow-hunter-gif-4526466056086935105

Final shape development really does feel a little loved

[quiet yacht]

true

[chrome fog]

||Ironically we moreso follow his ideals; he had already died by our efforts, and so by all means following the Sword Logic, we have the right to his power and titles||

Also he’s been supportive since we heard him speak in the end of Act 1

[slim elk]

Yeah, pretty much by his own logic ||Us defeating him and the Witness has pretty conclusively demonstrated we are superior||

[eager trout]

How do Techeuns work?

[dim minnow]

the possess very potent psychic powers

I suspect they even hold ontological weapons that can final death Guardians

it is possible that only is with the Taken Techeuns though

but Eido's notes on them tells me they can do that normally

[desert tree]

question: does Saturn have any Vex activity going on in it's rings or on it's "surface"

[chrome fog]

Most that's ever happened on Saturn is the big battle with Oryx that the Awoken lost heavily in

[desert tree]

damnit

[chrome fog]

In which he activated the Dreadnaught weapon and blasted essentially the entirety of the Awoken fleet

No idea what sort of stuff would be happening on Saturn specifically considering it's a gas giant, maybe look to its moons

[dim minnow]

Oryx: "Domain Expansion, fuck everything in a thousand-mile radius"

[chrome fog]

Domain Expansion: Actual Fucking Nuke

[slim girder]

Saturn according to drifter has some mining facilities apparently but I don't see anything noteworthy coming from that

[umbral lotus]

irrelevant until we find an evil rock

[chrome fog]

Titan is one of Saturn's moons, so. entirety of whatever's happened on there is by proxy soemthing important that happened around Saturn

Oh my god what do you mean Saturn has 270+ moons?

[umbral lotus]

moon collector

[slim girder]

Only solid thing on Saturn is it's rings and the icy core of the planet

[chrome fog]

And apparently the quarter thousand moons it has in its orbit

But again, Titan, which was once part of the destinations page and where a number of important events in Season of the Deep occur as well as where Ahsa lives, does orbit Saturn

That and the Dreadnaught

[chrome fog]

But no Vex shenanigans as per the original query

[desert tree]

I just realised, we never got Ghaul's gun as an exotic weapon
wtf

[chrome fog]

What gun, the like spreader thing?

[desert tree]

his Pistol that he had
hang on ill see if I can find a pic

[chrome fog]

This one?

[desert tree]

Caiatl has one as well

yea that

[chrome fog]

Looks just like a linear

Or a heavy shotgun, of which we have an equivalent

Oh neat someone has a link to the concept art for it

(Also has a link to Uldren having a small sawed off shotty, but I'll embed the link to the concept art page) https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/aiir62/ghauls_handgun_should_have_been_the_d2_equivalent/
Concept art page: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81%2BZjQdbZBL.jpg

[desert tree]

I think I just came across that same link and thats what made me think about it

nevermind, not the same link

[eager trout]

The Moon King, where we defeated the Taken King

[slim girder]

I love it when NASA makes a new discovery and the entire destiny community starts memeing about it.

Think the last one was when scientists posted sounds that europa was making and this was pre beyond light so destiny fans started talking about it.

[ember storm]

SIVA beneath the ice

[slim girder]

Think there was another about a pyramid shaped mountain of some kind being discovered on ceres.

[eager trout]

Btw, has anything happened on Ceres in Destiny?

Saturn is the true Taken King, it was taken many objects as its moons

[slim girder]

Reef wars destroyed it through the use of harbingers from mara sov because it had been occupied by the house of wolves

[eager trout]

Bruh

What happened on Pluto?

Why is Panoptes so unique?

Why is the Consecrated Mind like that?

[ember storm]

I have not heard of anything related to Pluto

Panoptes and the infinite forest were created at the same time, its purpose was to oversee all simulations within it to guide the vex toward the most efficient path to their goal

Sol Divisive are vex that worship darkness to gain power and isolate themselves in the black garden, the strongest of which have warped chassis from exposure

[slim girder]

Panoptes is a "seeder". They're the one that arrived on mercury and started the process of turning it into a vex world.

[eager trout]

I meant the big Harpy that looks like Akelous

[ember storm]

That is a member of the sol divisive

That is why it looks like that

That’s literally the only defining characteristic of it

All harpies have tentacles

[slim girder]

Sol divisive vex are very unique compared to other vex. They only come from one place and they don't act like other vex do which is to find a timeline where only they exist.
Instead they turn to worship any kind of power in order to survive

[ember storm]

No, their ultimate goal is the same as every other vex

They’ve just become lost in their method of obtaining it that they isolate themselves and avoid all contact with outside collectives

[slim girder]

Wasn't it said that the reason they worshipped the black heart was because they couldn't beat the paracausal force behind it? So by worshipping it they would live and therefore still fulfill their purpose?

Basically survival by submission

[ember storm]

They created it

Their entire basis is simply based on the data that Quria collected during the invasion of oryx’s throne world

They simply deduce that in a universe full of paracausal forces, making use of one is the most efficient course of action

A group of vex are never going to be threatened in any capacity

[chrome fog]

Were they the ones to create the Black Heart?

[ember storm]

Yes

The taken were killing sol divisive vex in the deterministic chaos mission

Because they still held the data for how the black heart was made

[chrome fog]

Hmmm, and I'm going to guess that the 'data to make the black heart' was provided to them by the Witness, because I vaguely remember something about the Black Heart being a gift from the Witness bestowed unto the Vex

Considering that the Black Heart is a failed copy of the Veil, which tracks with their record of Nezarec supposedly being a weird clone thing made off of Rhulk

(Those are two disparate things, but the latter would support the former if that's how the Witness was able to 'gift' the Black Heart to Sol Divisive)

[ember storm]

Actually I think that’s where the statue in gos is meant to come in

The assumption being that the witness tried getting a backup since the veil was lost

But it ended up being a dead end and the witness just abandoned the idea, staying inactive outside the system while the sol divisive just played with their new toy

[chrome fog]

Neat

I should look more into the dungeon lore but I'm still struggling to get through Legendary Iconoclasm on my Hunter, so it's been taking a backseat for now

[dim minnow]

we know that there was some sort of Vex-related incident there and that Rasputin's response to it created a lot of "noise" in that a lot more people were learning how much of a threat they were

[dim minnow]

the Vex didn't exactly create the Heart, they found it

or perhaps they found its seed and helped it grow into the Heart

it was the Witness who left that "seed" in there for them to find

[slim girder]

See that's what I was thinking. The witness "gave" them this heart and they turned to worship since it enabled them to avoid extinction

Again survival through submission

[chrome fog]

Vex don’t operate on the same style of wavelength as normal creatures, it’s less ‘survival’ and more ‘what is the least inconvenient way to achieve assimilation, and is there currently shit making it hard to assimilate’

Vex don’t scared or proud or have any sort of emotive comprehension of the universe, their whole thought process predicates on their ability to literally simulate the present scenario in multiple different ways

If Sol Divisive were to be completely dismantled, the rest of the Vex are still going to be present, they’re still going to have their forge stars and other parts of the universe they’ve assimilated into the the Vex Network, just that the specific branch of that network which was Sol Divisive failed to produce results pursuing paracausality to further universal assimilation

[meager coral]

What period of oryx’s history is the echo memory from?

I also don’t know exactly how old crota is, but the memory isn’t aware without being told he has a son

[eager trout]

The Vex are probably going to be the last enemy we defeat

[slim girder]

It's from when he had just mantled himself as the taken king and built his dreadnaught I believe

[sick yew]

I dont think we know an exact period but it is quite an old one since he doesnt even know about his son by that point

In one of his random nether voicelines he says he had to be told that he had a son lateron

[meager coral]

Yeah that dialogue was what made my confusion, so it has to be probably right as he becomes the taken king like retro says, otherwise he wouldn’t be oryx or he would have a son

[sick yew]

I dont think we know how long Oryx was the taken king for before Crota came around

[chrome fog]

It could also be a case where Crota had been born but hadn’t yet risen to his position as part of Oryx’s court

[meager coral]

Wouldn’t he know if he had a son though as the dialogue is unaware of even the thought of having children

[chrome fog]

They have broods of children in which they produce multiple physical offspring, but only a few get recognized as Children until they prove themselves

[meager coral]

I think it’s something like “I’m told in life I had a son” like it is news to him

[chrome fog]

I think

[meager coral]

I’m not entirely sure on how the hive produce offspring so you could be right

[slim girder]

Crota was new to him. He didn't have a son at that point. Again he had just mantled himself as the taken king. Only after that did he actually produce offspring like crota and his 2 daughters.
This is a "young prime oryx"

[chrome fog]

It’s not mammalian rules where they produce one or three at a time, every thrall is part of a batch that is birthed from a parent, with a few rising above to prove themselves worthy of recognition as successors

So Crota may have been physically born by this time, but hadn’t yet become his Demi-God self we recognize from the loretabs and gameplay

[hollow hinge]

So obviously this is purely speculative but if we ever were to get a 3rd darkness subclass, what mental state would it accommodate?

Stasis is purely about Control
Strand is about going with the flow, you can't control everything
If it's Red then I'd like to see absolute Rage

[slim girder]

Crota came directly from oryx. This is told in the lore.
He was named by oryx and given a sword by him and told why he had been created. He didn't evolve from a thrall.

[hollow hinge]

You'd need to fully give in and accept your emotions but not to let them control you, but maybe that's too similar to Strand

[slim girder]

It's speculated to be nightmares or "trauma" as darkness is all about consciousness.
Micah even suggested that the power on the moon was an untapped source of it.

Whether this actually turns into something though is up to bungie

[hollow hinge]

So sorrow/sadness, rage and forgiveness could be themes

[slim girder]

Kinda. Again though this is up to bungie

But the nightmare energy is the best bet according to theories

Fits the theme of what darkness is and trauma is a part of consciousness.

Which is what the nightmares on the moon are.

[chrome fog]

And I’m not conflicting that claim, I’m just positing that again, Crota might have been born and has a direct connection to Oryx by way of being born from Oryx and whoever. But, it’s a significant part of Hive child rearing that they produce massive broods, of which only a few rise over their siblings to even become Knights or Wizards - much less become a significant one of great power and even much less getting to the level that the few children in Oryx’s Court had reached.

It’s not unreasonable that it would’ve taken a loooooong time for Crota to become the Crota that we know now, and unless there’s a lore entry where Oryx singles out Crota immediately after his birth and claims recognition of him as his child, any reference to Crota comes after Oryx had claimed the title of Taken King

At the furthest back into the timeline we can go, the soonest we see Crota in the timeline is when he had ripped a hole in Oryx’s Throneworld after being goaded by Savathun, which itself precedes him embedding himself and the Hidden Swarm in the Moon, which would’ve been waaay into Earth’s Pre-History

And Oryx was already called Oryx at that time, meaning he had already received the title of Taken King, as he was Auryx after taking on the King Morph and became Oryx with the Taken King title

[slim girder]

You are correct that the crota we know took a long time to become that.
But when it comes to the offspring of the hive gods a lot of things can happen. Crota was created and immediately given a name, a sword and told what he must do which was to prove himself. There's a difference between a hive gods brood and their actual offspring.
The deathsinger daughters came after oryx cut a larvae in half. Nokris was also a special case but because his existence was wiped for being a necromancer there is no way to actually confirm that.

Again brood and the actual lineage of a hive god are different.
You are a son/daughter of a hive god if they specifically create you, not through starting out as a thrall and just rising up the ranks.

[chrome fog]

Was he? Again, if we have a lore entry which explicitly highlights that Crota was claimed immediately at birth then there’s no reason to believe that the Hive Gods are excluded from the brooding cycles of the rest of the Hive

[slim girder]

The hive gods are exceptions because they are the originals. They were originally a whole different kind of species.

[chrome fog]

They had changed others of their species into Hive, so they are not the sole originators of the Hive as they are now

[slim girder]

Oryx savathun and xivu (known by different names at the time) are the children of the osmium king and the ones who made that bargain with the worms. They were the originators of the hive as we know them.

They were the first to take the worms into their bodies.

They then brought that power back to share with their respective broods.

[ember storm]

And all parties involved became hive and were not krill anymore

And all of the spawn from these individuals were hive upon birth

Just having a worm doesn’t make you hive, their physiology was permanently altered from the 1st generation

[slim girder]

They still remember their days as krill though. That's what I'm trying to say.
All other hive save for maybe a few are a completely different generation.

[ember storm]

Funny visual to imagine that Savathun has a full backlog of children born specifically for a singular purpose and only lets one out of the house at a time when she needs them to do something (Malok, Dul Incaru)

[ember storm]

Yeah?

What exactly is the conversation about right now

Is it not about how hive spawning works

[slim girder]

Started with what timeline is the echo of navigation from and then from there went into if crota existed at that point but wasn't recognised as the son of oryx.

I said crota was created directly by oryx but the other argument was that he was just part of oryxs brood that start as thralls and rose to that.

[ember storm]

I had arranged my own lineages so that I would be greatest among the Hive and secure on my throne — then I found a mother to make spawn.
One of those spawn was you.

Crota himself had a little hunger games type situation with his own daughters, didn’t he??

That’s probably just how those at the top go about it

Let the babies tear each other apart and only the strongest survive

[slim girder]

As is the sword logic

[ember storm]

Standard infantry just have as much spawn as possible to get as many foot soldiers as possible

Those at the top would only want their spawn to be the best of the best

Didn’t matter how many were born as long as there were only a few in the end

[chrome fog]

And we don’t have any elaboration on how the distinction is made between recognized Children of a specific Hive and their brood, though we do have an entry wherein Oryx directs a thrall to rise up to power through the Sword Logic

[ember storm]

Malok was a thrall and gorged himself on enough tribute to immediately become an ascendant knight

Has Savathun ever mentioned either of her children once

[chrome fog]

There is woefully little information on the distinction between broods and children, but it is a key part of their culture that even a Thrall can rise to a position of great power; it stands to reason that even the children of the Hive Gods would’ve risen to their position through the same means

It could also be like a queen bee/ant situation wherein they have the broods in general and more important children are created through a specialized process to create a singular “heir” but again, we don’t know jack shit on the reproductive process of the Hive in any entomological way

[eager trout]

They reproduce through reproduction

[ember storm]

Perish the thought

[hollow hinge]

and they drink through drinking
They eat through eating
and you're not gonna believe this... they kill through killing

[chrome fog]

Yea. But a mammal usually has sub-50 children, maybe more considering rabbits, whilst colony bugs like bees and ants have the entire hive being birthed by the queen

[eager trout]

What happened with Skolas and the Nine?

[chrome fog]

We killy him

I think

[blazing wasp]

skolas appears to be alive given his laughter in dialogue after we kill him

the nine are still here they're just... out and about?

[ember storm]

If you’re asking about their history

Long story short, Mara had him captured after the original reef wars and ended up gifting him to the nine as a sort of brownie point thing

Unknown to everyone else, the nine simply let Skolas escape, as they wanted to see if they could bridge the gap between the awoken and guardians in order to bridge the gap between themselves and guardians

[eager trout]

Thanks

Btw, did anyone notice the little foreshadowing(?) when the Witness grabs Targe? How it's hand starts to burn away because of Targe's Light?

[ember storm]

Yeah

[sick yew]

Mhm

[sleek matrix]

Weird

[ember storm]

You can see the witness internally going “oh shit” and just resorting to killing him when they have no retort to him calling out their fear

[sleek matrix]

Because it tanked traveler beam of light just fine

[ember storm]

This was inside the witness essentially

[sick yew]

^

[ember storm]

Remember the big wall of darkness goo

It was erasing the very culmination of the witness’ being

[sleek matrix]

Yea i guess

[sick yew]

It could also just be the dissenters giving out a hint

[ember storm]

Also could be that the traveler is just completely incapable of using its power offensively

It wasn’t any kind of damaging light

It was just the terraforming beam

[sick yew]

I doubt the Witness was vulnerable in this space but the dissenters were able to shift reality around a bit so they might just placed a neat vfx there to show that the witness wasnt exactly immune to light

[sleek matrix]

Did you see the ron pyramid

[eager trout]

But that was in the outside world, a physical world. In the Pale Heart, the Witness probably became more "physical" due to the entire realm being made of memories given shape.

[ember storm]

Targe and our ghost laser was actual offensive power

[sleek matrix]

There was plenty of destruction

[sick yew]

Thats a side effect

[ember storm]

Which was only caused by the growth of the silver tree

[sick yew]

The beam itself did no damage

[ember storm]

It did not actually hurt the pyramid itself

And it did not hurt the witness either

[sleek matrix]

Cause and affect

[ember storm]

Yeah

And there can be no growth on the witness

So it just passed through

[eager trout]

I'd say Targe's Light "aura" was just the Light that Ghosts give off all the time that's just invisible except in an environment of pure Darkness.

[sleek matrix]

I still think the cut scene we got when we first went in

Was the best

In terms of quality

The bird flying

And then the darkness encroaching

[eager trout]

Venom

[sleek matrix]

It did look like it

[eager trout]

Also, something weird is that when the Witness grabbed Targe, the lines that appeared on its hand right before it destroyed him followed the same pattern as Strand, but with the color of Light

Possibly showing how Targe's Light was "unmaking" it the same way Strand "made" it

[ember storm]

Strand had nothing to do with the witness

[sleek matrix]

The witness is a darkness entity

Although its creations the dread use stasis and strand

And the subjugators too

[eager trout]

I mean, it used the Veil, Strand manifests with the Veil, Strand is just an aspect of Darkness, and since Darkness was involved in the creation of the Witness, Strand was involved

[ember storm]

It was not

Strand was specifically only discovered on neomuna because of us

The witness and precursors had no idea it even existed

The misconception here is assuming that strand is a naturally occurring form of darkness

It is not

Is is specifically our perception of the weave, something that stretches across all of existence, and the manifesting it in strings that makes strand a thing

Strand itself has no properties relating to what the witness does or how it was made

[eager trout]

Yes, but just like Arc, Solar, and Void as just different "colors" of Light, Stasis and Strand are different "colors" of Darkness, so using Darkness as a whole involves using the different aspects that make up Stasis and Strand, but all together

[ember storm]

It is simply a byproduct of the veil, not at all tied to its actual functionality

[eager trout]

Psychic connection

[ember storm]

stasis and strand are specifically offshoots that are different manifestations of darkness in different forms

Nightmare essences and egregore are the same

The witness wasn’t made using any of those

[eager trout]

It was made using the whole from which those things come

[ember storm]

It is not a whole of them

They’re not pieces

Darkness isn’t an all encompassing thing that these are pieces of

[chrome fog]

A-HA

[eager trout]

Least messed up bug reproduction method

[chrome fog]

Plus a little additional

[agile panther]

The ambassador a freak

[chrome fog]

Oh

Yes, but that's moreso the Krill and their home planet really putting an emphasis on survival of the fittest, to the extent that cannibalism be normal

[eager trout]

Least messed up insect society:

[eager trout]

when you have a question that's probably too controversial to ask

[dim minnow]

Dm it to me

[eager trout]

It's probably not that controversial, but I'm still cautious

[fresh zephyr]

Genuine question for once, can someone explain the Act 2 story for me, because I’m pretty lost

Why did we need Willbreaker?

[slim elk]

Sloane wants to destroy the Echo while Eris plans to contain it and use its power

Willbreaker is apparently capable of destroying it

[trim grotto]

We used it to cut through to the Ascendant Plane and find and free Eris from her Throne World. It is also a powerful tool we can use to control or destroy the Echo.

[fresh zephyr]

I hope we don’t destroy the Echo

I really like having a neutral Oryx

[slim elk]

It's a bit weird with the whole "controlling the Echo" bit.

All we have to do is just... accept the Mantle of Taken King. That's it

We handled the Witness trying to corrupt us through Stasis and killed it

[little gorge]

isn't it more of an ideology issue

doing that would mean accepting the sword logic

[slim elk]

Not really an issue by this point.

We did sorta create a Hive God of our own

[little gorge]

true

[slim elk]

Fikrul also shows that the consciousness in an Echo is compliant to the wielder

That staff made it clear it wanted a new user, but didn't do a thing to stop Fikrul's use of it

[little gorge]

but i don't think the mantle of taken king could have any corruptive influence on us

so we must be opposed to it because of principle

[slim elk]

Or Bungie not wanting to have the Player Guardian have a significant role beyond "kill everything pointed at" lol

[little gorge]

well yeah

which sucks because the whole situation could be very interesting if we were an actual character

[slim elk]

It's just hitting a roadblock where the solution is obvious and shows how far the player character would have developed

Imagine rebutting Xivu for her cowardice that she can't even show herself in person to that big meeting even Savathun showed up to

[little gorge]

was that the real sav?

i generally tend to assume whenever she appears it's an illusion

[jagged badge]

Eris’ plan is to excise Oryx from the Echo and imprison his memory in her Throne World while we use the Echo to our own benefit

Sloane thinks this is a massive risk and wants to destroy the Echo and Oryx

[little gorge]

if you look at it from a meta angle obviously we are going to go with eris's plan

it's better narrative wise and also her throne world has a big cage of hive magic in the shape of the echo

[trim grotto]

Eris Morn mentioned we could use the Echo of Navigation to traverse the Ascendant Plane.

For example... to new Frontiers?

[hollow hinge]

This being mentioned in the final season all but confirms it for me

Our ships aren't advanced enough to travel willy nilly out of the system so this makes it a much more viable option

[ember storm]

the guardian was physically incapable of even entertaining the idea of using the original thorn because of its legacy

we have used the sword logic in the past to our advantage

subscribing to it fully is another thing entirely

taking up oryx's mantle would literally mean creating an army of mindless slaves

no matter what you like to think, the guardian is an established character with their own thoughts and feelings, and would not go through with it

it would not just be "we now have the power of the taken"

[little gorge]

not to mention bungie explicitly said the season will set up frontiers

[sleek matrix]

What about the drifter doing it

Hes an odd character

And has always walked a path that isnt so black and white

[desert pebble]

i'm wondering is the sword logic itself an actual force of the universe or some bullshit the witness made up

[chrome fog]

The Hive are a demonstration that the Thing the Hive made up has become a real thing through the worm symbiotes they all have

[sleek matrix]

Its the worm gods

And the worms

Thats where the power comes from

And using hive magic like eris has

[chrome fog]

... and why would Drifter, who hates being tied down more than anything, take up a role that would not only thrust him into having a ton of responsibility as the Taken King but also require him to enforce his will onto other beings?

[sleek matrix]

For the sake of eris maybe

Would drifter want that burden for eris?

[chrome fog]

He'd listen to Eris on these matters more than make assumptions on how to act

[sleek matrix]

Well i would disagree

[chrome fog]

Considering, y'know, she's the Hive expert

[sleek matrix]

He thought he lost eris just recently

[chrome fog]

And essentially this is what he did for Season of the Witch

[sleek matrix]

Or maybe we do it Sloane way

[chrome fog]

But now that she's back what makes you think he's going to do something else that might potentially upset her by going around her back and taking the title fo Taken King where there's already a plan made to circumvent this and still obtain the power of the Echo for ourselves

[sleek matrix]

Destroy the echo and oryx

[chrome fog]

Whom Drifter hates and also metanarratively it is unlikely we're going to take her path with how quick and simple it is

[sleek matrix]

The main goal is savathun and xivu cant get there hands on the echo

The cutscene showed what they would do with it

[chrome fog]

Then why wouldn’t he just follow Eris’ plan

Which it’s also likely that we’re going to follow her plan as well

[sleek matrix]

Its quick and simple but its also the safest plan by far

Although allowing travel to the ascendant plane is a big advantage

[chrome fog]

Going back to the original statement of Drifter taking the title of Taken King for us, 1) he wasn’t the one to kill Oryx so it wouldn’t even be his to claim, and 2) he may be a bastard at times but fundamentally he still believes in the freedom for individuals to choose for themselves, even to a self-destructive degree - why would he take on a mantle which would run counter to that belief and could potentially corrupt him towards accepting the title wholesale

[sleek matrix]

There is something between the taken and winnower

[chrome fog]

Again again, is Sloane the Hive expert or Eris?

[sleek matrix]

Maybe the echo could be used to our advantage to find out what is going on

The suffocating terror eyes

[chrome fog]

…Which Eris is trying to do

[sleek matrix]

The dire taken

A new entity lurks

The tentacles

Im praying its nezarec somehow but it could be a new entity entirely

[sleek matrix]

Eris is but dont underestimate Sloane

She had to fight off the temptation of the winnower and xivu

She should be taken

Its a miracle she aint

[chrome fog]

Sloane has no expertise to weigh in on the situation other than just the common sense of “If you destroy it then you don’t have to worry about it”; what Eris is trying to do is to get more than our work’s worth out of the Echo so we can actually use its power without the downsides of a) destroying the thing and losing its power, or b) someone taking the mantle of Taken King and resuming Oryx’s shittery of Taking people

[sleek matrix]

Sloane does has valuable insight on the taken

[hollow hinge]

Does she tho?

[sleek matrix]

She can listen in on there comms

[sleek matrix]

Yes

[eager trout]

Drifter becoming the Taken King to upgrade Gambit

[sleek matrix]

[hollow hinge]

Outside of having resisted them for years and killing a shitload of them, what expertise is she supposed to have?

[chrome fog]

Only in that she has first hand experience on how it feels to be one, not necessarily any understanding from a controlling position as one who Takes

[hollow hinge]

she's not exactly the scholarly type

[chrome fog]

Her perspective is valuable, but like. It’s not knowledge like Eris’

[sleek matrix]

No but she is the one that has been teaching us about the path of resolve

Not eris

And that is gonna be vital

[hollow hinge]

I disagree

Path of Resolve was the first one, but now with Path of Ambition we're embracing the powers more than we did with Resolve

[sleek matrix]

Yes

But we had to start somewhere

[chrome fog]

She’s more Werewolf “I am the thing and know how it feels” vs Eris’ vampire scholar “I have read up on every possible mention and appearance of this thing, maybe even moreso than they understand themselves”

[sleek matrix]

Pathe of resolve was that start

[hollow hinge]

Ambition, or the 3rd one will be more important (assuming they add one more in Act 3)

[sleek matrix]

You cant just run

You have to learn to walk first

[hollow hinge]

but also if we wanna be a little meta, destroying the echo ruins our chances of going outside Sol

soooo

[eager trout]

What about only controlling those that exist (or maybe un-Taking them if that's possible) and using the Taken power itself to do things, instead of Taking?

[hollow hinge]

to me Sloane brings up the option of destroying it just so that small sub-section of the community that would whine "HuRr BuT wHy NoT jUsT dEsTrOy It??!?" doesn't get the option to

[chrome fog]

It’s possible considering Drifter’s crew almost did so and Mara and the Awoken were from just outside the rim of the Sol System, but it would be considerably easier were we to have the knowledge and expertise of The Navigator on our side

[hollow hinge]

Eris quickly shuts it down as being shortsighted

[sleek matrix]

Hello?

We have a ship lol

[chrome fog]

But do we have a map or any way to navigate beyond this solar system

[sleek matrix]

If eramis can get out with only a ketch

So can we

[hollow hinge]

It would take years to reach any destination outside Sol

let alone know where to go

[ember storm]

...only a ketch?

[sleek matrix]

What else does she have?

[fresh zephyr]

Who’s Skira? Some guy mentioned it on Twitter

[ember storm]

the things the size of office buildings?

thats literally the biggest and most powerful eliksni ship

[sleek matrix]

So they can do a time skip

[ember storm]

built to hold entire houses

[hollow hinge]

fucking yawn

also how would we travel back and forth?

seasons would still continue to take place here in Sol

at least some that is

[sleek matrix]

The only reason im against the theory is the last two echoes

[ember storm]

you seriously arent seeimg the obvious thing of using the ascendant plane for travel

[chrome fog]

I would still say this is a fair position to take considering how many things we take into custody that just straight up corrupt or kill people - Thorn, the K1 Anomoly, uhhhh there’s more but I can’t remember atm - but I do agree that to outright remove this font of knowledge from the equation because of a risk we can potentially mitigate by just saying “No thanks” is very shortsighted

[sleek matrix]

Yes ik

[ember storm]

we literally do it in the 1st mission

[fresh zephyr]

Apparently there’s someone standing between the Winnower and the Taken, so it seems we’re not at the Deep just yet

[ember storm]

one minute in the edz, next on the dreadnaught

[hollow hinge]

yea took Drifter and Eris some 30 or 40 mins to reach the Dreadnought in their ships and then we do it in a minute

[chrome fog]

Did they mention anything else, like anyone who she’d be associated with?

[ember storm]

imagine that with eris actually controlling it

[sleek matrix]

No

[chrome fog]

What???

What do you mean no

[ember storm]

skira was that

[fresh zephyr]

An ancient enemy that chased the Eliksni in the Collapse, sounds like a Disciple

[ember storm]

shapeshifting fallen boogeyman

[sleek matrix]

The echo only said there is something that stands between the taken and the winnower

[chrome fog]

Ok thank you, this is what I was asking for

[fresh zephyr]

The Witness really just hits up anyone who is remotely feared, I kind of respect it

[chrome fog]

Not just “No”

[chrome fog]

Witness do be having predatory mindset scoping out sycophants for its cause, preying on their insecurities/pride

[hollow hinge]

https://tenor.com/view/i-request-elaboration-white-vision-paul-bettany-wandavision-i-want-an-explanation-gif-22928362

[sleek matrix]

https://youtu.be/P5tW1C1Ohpc?si=H5s527JW1IUujNLK

This isnt the main one

But it is concerning

[fresh zephyr]

The Witness just finds the most psychopathic individuals and says “okay, show me what you can do with even more freedom”

[chrome fog]

Reeeaaaal

[sleek matrix]

https://youtu.be/Jmw5IlC4PrM?si=WZl4xGEIFFZoJEXF

[hollow hinge]

it realised as we neared it, holy fuck this tiny being is batshit insane

[ember storm]

calus lowkey was just enlisted for his psions

[sleek matrix]

This is where the echo says sometimes stands between

[ember storm]

he had nothing of value

[fresh zephyr]

Something in the waaaay- The Echo probably

[hollow hinge]

also because he was so desperate for power that he was an easy tool to use and discard

[sleek matrix]

No

[fresh zephyr]

Honestly why doesn’t The Witness just enlist Miraak

[ember storm]

calus literally threw himself into a darkness black hole just to go "I want to speak to the darkness' manager"

[chrome fog]

And clone tech maybe? The implication is that tormentors were a collab project between him and the Witness based off material from Nezarec

[fresh zephyr]

Bro needs a win real bad

[sleek matrix]

Its something new

[ember storm]

yeah thats all psions

every technological advancement cabal have ever had are from psions

[chrome fog]

Wdym he literally says there’s something between him and the Taken

[ember storm]

traveler cage, almighty, cloning tech, royal wine, psionic weaponry, psinaptic spear

[fresh zephyr]

Tony the Tormentor is real, or Jimmy Aspect of Placeholding is in between the Winnower and Taken

[sleek matrix]

Not him

[ember storm]

psions carry their whole race

[sleek matrix]

Between the winnower and the taken

[hollow hinge]

I've heard on the webz that some people want a Winnower teaser at the end of this season.... and like.. mann do we always need to up the stakes?

[chrome fog]

He is almost literally saying “Something’s in the way”

[sleek matrix]

Yes

[fresh zephyr]

Thank you

[sleek matrix]

And its between winnower and the taken

[fresh zephyr]

Kurt Cobain is the Deep

[sleek matrix]

Just like how witness was between

[chrome fog]

So why say no to the original message when that’s literally what he said

[fresh zephyr]

I should’ve known

[sleek matrix]

Thats why we didnt really find out about the winnower

Till we killed the witness

[fresh zephyr]

I have a sneaking suspicion the Witness isn’t DEAD DEAD

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-starfish-spongebob-its-not-my-gif-12227574

[fresh zephyr]

The Witness will return at the end of Heresy, as a spirit

[chrome fog]

Those are the Echoes

[sleek matrix]

Its been confirmed many times

[fresh zephyr]

But it will be The Witness, Echo of Echoes

[ember storm]

also btw i dont think there are just 3 echoes

[jagged badge]

Wdym?

[fresh zephyr]

Genuinely thought about this

[hollow hinge]

there are 9

[ember storm]

the cutscene at the beginning of Echoes with ikora explaining what they are shows more than 3

so

[fresh zephyr]

I feel like one lands in Apollo

Whatever Apollo is

[hollow hinge]

it showed 9 echoes

[chrome fog]

Do we just base this off of visual representation in the cutscene

[ember storm]

anyone think the pod things in apollo look like delicate tomb or am i stoopid

nezarec race confirmed

[hollow hinge]

they wouldn't put it in there without reason

[chrome fog]

It’s not a place, just a name for the content after all the Episodes

[fresh zephyr]

I mean you remember the multiple Traveler theory in the Rhulk cutscene?

[sleek matrix]

Echoes were mainly a plot device for episodes

[ember storm]

huh

what

[jagged badge]

A codename as well, not the actual final name of the expansion

[fresh zephyr]

In the Rhulk death cutscene, people thought there were multiple Travelers

[chrome fog]

No duh, we’re discussing what they literally are in-universe

[jagged badge]

Iirc, Frontiers was also a codename right?

[ember storm]

the thing that was blatantly showing the director map with all the destinations?

[hollow hinge]

9 made perfect sense if they wanted to do 3 episodes per expansion but now that we're changing the formula again, who knows

maybe we get multiple echoes in some expansion/episode/season

[fresh zephyr]

May I remind you Skolas is still alive

[ember storm]

yeah but he's lame

[chrome fog]

It’d be fun if the nine shown in that cutscene was only an approximation

[ember storm]

fuck was he ever good for, being a shit experience in D1 with solar burn

[fresh zephyr]

I want a Skolas DLC

Again

[hollow hinge]

surely at least one of the echoes landed with a good being that chose to just leave and do good with it, right?

[fresh zephyr]

But it’s Skolas and Taniks in a 2v1 like Encore

[ember storm]

found it

[chrome fog]

He’d be a basic Fallen boss unless he gets his hands one some sort of power up

[ember storm]

surprise he also wields stasis like kridis

[slim girder]

But he's a husked out scorn. Most likely has no idea of who he was before and only seems to remember the challenge of the elders.

[ember storm]

but he could develop

all scorn aside from fikrul start as mindless husks

[jagged badge]

That’s not true

[ember storm]

but left to their own devices they can grow

the DC scorn started to develop their own form of culture in lost

then we're shown that some of Fikrul's scorn can have legitimate verbal conversations

[slim girder]

Only thing special about skolas is he is a revenant scorn. But nothing had been said as to whether he even knows who he was and fikrul could have just ressed him because he is a very influential kell.

[little gorge]

yes

[ember storm]

thats not the point

literally no scorn starts out well-developed

but left on their own they grow

skolas can regain his sense of self and he's also still functionally immortal

since eramis didn't do anything to stop the remaining revenant scorn, there's still a bunch left with light imbued rez totems

[jagged badge]

Doesn’t Kell’s Vengeance establish Skolas remembers us?

[slim girder]

No it establishes he remembers the call of the challenge of elders

[ember storm]

i would argue that's more of just instrinctive feral rage but his laugh at the end implies he's able to recognize the situation and is amused by it

[slim girder]

Variks tells us this

[jagged badge]

The Destiny Lore Vault doesn’t seem to have any videos of that mission’s dialogue

[ember storm]

a feral zombie wouldnt literally taunt us before leaving

[slim girder]

Variks says I believe "If any part of skolas remembers, he will answer the challenge"

Maybe he could develop but imho I view skolas as just this husked out boogeyman of the tomb of elders who only remembers the call of the challenge.

Not the happiest ending in the world but I feel revenant really tied off the eliksni/scorn storyline.

Fikrul and revenant scorn threat dealt with, eramis off to rebuild riis, mithrax kell of kells and skolas remaining in the tomb.

[chrome fog]

It would be even funnier if he just so happened to be a Scorn that can sling Strand around somehow

[eager trout]

Somehow it never occured to me how tone-deaf Nimbus was with trying to fist bump Caiatl after she watched her dad die.

[ember storm]

tbh they probably dont have their ears anymore

[trim grotto]

While that part of the writing was... Poor, imo... To be fair to Nimbus, I'm pretty sure they didn't know Caiatl was his daughter.

[eager trout]

Not to mention it makes sense for someone who was raised in a society without conflict or problems and where everyone is willingly part of the Matrix to be tone-deaf

[trim grotto]

They do have problems. They were under constant Vex threat. Plus, the city is normally actually populated by physical people.

[eager trout]

Yeah, but they still did pretty well against the Vex, and they didn't have three other alien species attacking them

[trim grotto]

They did also have some internal conflicts.

Just a dash of terrorism in the past

A light sprinkle

[ember storm]

there was also a fair bit of people who did not join willingly

but capybara hour is our favorite impressionable youth propaganda machine

[eager trout]

Yeah, but not in Nimbus' lifetime

[trim grotto]

That is true

[ember storm]

iirc there were teams of people dedicated to forcing insubordinates into the cloudark

[eager trout]

Neomuna is basically a "modern dystopia", where everything seems fine and no one would tell you otherwise, because they don't know any better

[ember storm]

like boarded themselves up in their homes to not be taken to the facilities

[torpid flint]

A small bit of tomfoolery

[torpid flint]

Slightly less terrifying than a true utopia i suppose

[frigid sparrow]

Willingly*

*

[eager trout]

???

[frigid sparrow]

Not all of the neomunans inside the cloudark are there willingly, and there's some kinda fashy stuff about hiding history and suppression of dissent

[torpid flint]

Wdym??? Who are we talking about? Everyone wanted to be in the CloudArk! Now please walk over to the railing and look at the wonderful sky...

[frigid sparrow]

Maya Sundaresh and Chioma Esi are astounding founders who have done no wrong during the upbringing of the city

[torpid flint]

In fact I say she is a god! And definitely not on the same level as Clovis Bray

[trim grotto]

She didn't used to be

[torpid flint]

I mean yeah, but there's been plenty of people who did good things before they became evil. We don't really remember them for the good they did when the bad starts to overshadow the good

[meager coral]

Leading your scientist group to becoming brain dead, mind copying and inhabiting one of their corpses and inciting hate until you lead an ethnic cleansing on the last city until eventually leading a new vex centred assault murdering variations of your wife definitely overshadows the good I think

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah but she was a girlboss so it's at least a lil fine I think

[chrome fog]

Who’s to say this was the Veil’s fault or just her being really good at masking until specifically this point

[ember storm]

it was probably the divorce

[torpid flint]

Nuh uh! Didn't inject a man with radiolaria or make an exo want to rip their skin off! /s

[torpid flint]

? Actual lore? Or just a jk?

[ember storm]

i mean there was no divorce papers but chioma very much ended up not wanting anything to do with maya at all

her first interaction in like a thousand years was "I wish i could remember a time when i loved you"

[torpid flint]

To be fair, getting separated from someone you deeply care about can do that to people

Maybe not inhabit their corspe style sadness but ya know

[ember storm]

she directly attributed it to maya's actions

everything maya did leading up to her "death" completely ruined the life of everyone around her

it wasn't just "oh she's gone now and i am sad"

[torpid flint]

Seems innocent

[chrome fog]

But was that fucked up and evil Echo Maya who might be from after getting in contact with the Veil, or just Maya genuinely becoming evil and fucked yup because was who she is

Cause aside from the literal paradigm shift regarding who she was as a person from our perspective and gradually reading on the founding of Neomuna by her and the Ishtar Collective, could she literally have changed as a person landing on there and coming into contact with a significant Darkness source, which might’ve opened her up to malicious influence or itself influenced her to become as cruel as she was by the time we learn of her misdeeds?

[torpid flint]

I would personally say the Veli just gave rise to the darkness within herself. There was probably always a part of that laying underneath her "good" exterior. Just was too clouded by morality before to consider it

[frigid sparrow]

The darkness has never corrupted anyone ever

[chrome fog]

Because it was the Witness doing the corrupting through the Darkness; one of the bigger parts of Beyond Light and Witch Queen is the recognition that neither Light nor Darkness has an intrinsic moral characteristic to either of them

[dim minnow]

I do think that Stasis can corrupt you in the same way that a Jedi can be corrupted by the Dark Side

[chrome fog]

That “Voice in the Darkness” has been that malicious influence, the Darkness itself can be controlled and used for good and bad equally, much like the Light can as well

[ember storm]

you heard the voice in the darkness

[chrome fog]

Yea but that’s more like that because the Witness engineered it that way? It is a good point but the Witness do got it’s fingies all up in there too

[ember storm]

now what about

The Voice™️

[chrome fog]

The Smell of the Light

[dim minnow]

vanilla canonically

[ember storm]

simon cowell is the winnower

i take no criticism

[chrome fog]

I feel like there’s at least one other thing where the Light has an association with smell

Specifically smell for some reason

[ember storm]

you got the touch

you got the power

[chrome fog]

That one lady with a phd on the cultural impact of smell would have a field day I think with those entries

[eager trout]

She doesn't seem that good in the Winterbite loretab

[eager trout]

Void smells like loneliness

[ember storm]

unfortunately she was an influential member of a famous and important foundation