📚lore-discussion

[sleek matrix]

rulk will go to extreme lengths to achieve his goals

[dim minnow]

he also goaded the Ahslids into creating nation states

and pitted them against each other with his "children"

his children being the Ahslids he trained

[cedar dew]

[dim minnow]

that part is not confirmed

[trim grotto]

I think you're misinterpreting it. It's ego death.
Besides that, it's their free will to join the Hidden, and their free will to enact the oath.

[dim minnow]

we don't know what happened to Uun after

[sleek matrix]

[trim grotto]

So the Traveler would not hinder them

[sleek matrix]

most likely

[dim minnow]

Rhulk destroyed his world and his people by reversing the power of their powerful solar power siphoner thing

[warm acorn]

On accident or

[sleek matrix]

purpose

[warm acorn]

Why

[sleek matrix]

he split the moon in half or soma

[warm acorn]

Is Rhulk a guy

[sleek matrix]

to become a disciple and all that

[warm acorn]

And is he a subjugator?

[sleek matrix]

no

[warm acorn]

Or like what exactly is he

[sleek matrix]

subjugator were first created in final shape

[warm acorn]

Is he the genetic template for subjugators?

Or

[dim minnow]

he's THE Subjugator

[warm acorn]

They do be looking like him

Can dread reproduce or are there a finite amount

[dim minnow]

given that Rhulk's title was "Subjugator", it is very likely the subjugator dread were based off of him

[dim minnow]

they were primarily created by the Witness who used both Light and Dark to create them

so as of now, there doesn't really seem to be a way to make more of them

[warm acorn]

So we can theoretically wipe out all of the dread

[sleek matrix]

i wonder how many were made

[sleek matrix]

what were doing to the grim is also crazy

[dim minnow]

well, one mind can make multiple Dread

[sleek matrix]

grim as bascially disenters

memories of em and the more we kill they lose that memory of who they were

[dim minnow]

like how a single Psion could haev every different version of the pain he felt when Torobatl was razed be made into several Attendants

or how a single Dissenter can be diffused into an entire swarm of Grim

[eager trout]

If Tormentors are based on Nezarec, and Subjugators are based on Rhulk, is there anything based on Savathun or the other disciples?

[dim minnow]

Savathun was never a Disciple though the Witness was trying to make her one

[eager trout]

Then anything based on anyone else?

[dim minnow]

Calus is the only other example we have to go off of since we never see any other Disciples

[dim minnow]

no one as far as we know

Bungie could reveal a surviving Disciple and make them look like a Grim or Husk

[warm acorn]

So why did calus have a bunch of robots of himself on the leviathan

[eager trout]

Ego

[dim minnow]

this was before him and the Witness were official

his body was deteriorating

[sleek matrix]

i didnt like what they did with calus character

[warm acorn]

So before the witness

Was calus just a cabal leader?

And what’s up with the glykon

[eager trout]

Why?

[warm acorn]

And why was his body

Yea^

[eager trout]

He was an exile

Former emperor

[dim minnow]

age

[warm acorn]

Why was he exiled

And by whom

[eager trout]

Don't Cabal turn into stone when they get old, though?

[eager trout]

Not sure

[eager trout]

Probably Caiatl

[dim minnow]

many reasons

Caiatl was just one of the conspirators

[warm acorn]

So he was basically Caesar

[dim minnow]

some had issues with how Calus was running the empire

some wanted revenge

[warm acorn]

And caiatl is Brutus

Gg

Bungie copied the Roman Empire

[eager trout]

Honestly, what was so bad about Calus?

[warm acorn]

Dovadah is a lore goat

I’m saying

He’s kinda chill

He wanted us to grow fat from strength

[dim minnow]

He was rather corrupt

wanting to force the Cabal to move away from their traditions

[eager trout]

I guess Calus' lifestyle is the polar opposite of Cabal tradition. Cabal tend to go to the extreme with warmongering, while Calus went to the extreme with pleasure-seeking.

[dim minnow]

fun fact: The Red Legion was originally made by Calus so he can ensure the security of his rule

[eager trout]

Bro thinks he's Palpatine

[warm acorn]

💀

[warm acorn]

Cabal cringe for that

[dim minnow]

Calus' love for excess and gluttony is not really comething to strive for

[sleek matrix]

calbal took over many planets and basically could destroy entire galaxy

with there sun destroyer

[dim minnow]

at least Caiatl knows better than to try and conquer everyone she meets

[sleek matrix]

the almighty

caiatl is a good leader i wonder what she gonna do now

[dim minnow]

Ghaul acted like he did not take the decision to use it lightly as if it would make him sound any less like a sore loser

[warm acorn]

Run IB

[dim minnow]

her main goal seems to be taking back Torobatl

[sleek matrix]

yea

[warm acorn]

Saladin is a honorary cabal right?

[dim minnow]

he's a Valus on Caiatl's War Council

[trim grotto]

He is a Valus, currently. And on Caiatl's War Table.

[sleek matrix]

but is it even worth

[warm acorn]

Valus means what

[sleek matrix]

since its destroyed

[dim minnow]

it's a Cabal rank

[cedar dew]

also do we have any good reason on why the witness just doesn't bother with his final shape bs timer during transition and why it just resets between encounters, does he just get bored??

[dim minnow]

a rather high up on since Saladin is now leading his own Cabal Legion

[cedar dew]

like i understand the raid has to be playable but i didnt know the witness needed nap time 😭

[dim minnow]

probably because our progress through the raid delays it

[cedar dew]

i feel like a timer going on throughout the entire raid would be super cool but would definitely make it unaccessable for some people

and would ruin day 1

[warm acorn]

Is there lore explanation for why we can redo raids

Or just cause video game things

[dim minnow]

canonically, the only raid we run multiple times is Leviathan

because Calus has multiple robots

every other raid is done only once

[warm acorn]

Rip

[warm acorn]

Wait but we really couldn’t do leviathan cause like the beasts

[dim minnow]

maybe he has more of them

[warm acorn]

True

[warm acorn]

Gg so nobody should be allowed to run anymore raids

I’m guessing same with dungeons

[dim minnow]

Shattered Throne and Pit of Heresy are both canonically repeatable

Shattered Throne is once every three weeks and I think Pit could be once every week

I don't know about other dungeons

it seems like every other one isn't

[cedar dew]

do you like read all the lore books and stuff you know hella lot about this 😭

[dim minnow]

you can make an argument for Vespers, but I'm not sure about it

[warm acorn]

How exactly is pit repeatable

Idek the lore behind pit so

[dim minnow]

you know Altars of Sorrow right?

[warm acorn]

Yes

[cedar dew]

I mean I guess Atraks may still have some puppets there but raneiks is kinda funky

[warm acorn]

I know of the activity

Nothing about the lore

[dim minnow]

well that crystal you see in the sky is the same one in the Zulmak fight

[warm acorn]

Oh ok

[dim minnow]

so the Hidden Swarm were using Nightmare energy to revive Zulmak constantly

but since the remaining daughters of Crota were likely killed off, who knows if the dungeon is still going on in the story

[warm acorn]

Who are the hidden swarm

[dim minnow]

Hive brood we fight on the Moon

[warm acorn]

Ok ok

[warm acorn]

So as of rn, what’s the biggest threat to the guardian rn

Xivu?

[cedar dew]

well shes like severed from her throne world

[dim minnow]

right at this moment, it's whatever is going on in the Dreadnaught

[cedar dew]

tbh it's most likely savathun

[warm acorn]

Yea it’s prolly heresy stuff

[cedar dew]

did Xivu lose her power when we cut her from her throne world?

[dim minnow]

she lost her safety net

[cedar dew]

is that why she sent a representative during the story mission

[dim minnow]

probably

she's grown cowardly according to Oryx

well, the Echo

[warm acorn]

She’s scared

Cause we could clap her anytime

[cedar dew]

the echo oryx is hella chill but i don't really like the voice actor

[dim minnow]

she's still very strong

it's just that if she does die, then she's dead for good

[cedar dew]

also i think its interesting that the echo says that oryx wouldn't have seeked vengence after the death fo crota

[warm acorn]

I mean

We beat savathun

Oryx

Crota

The witness

Hashladun

Atheon

[dim minnow]

Savathun said the exact same thing previously

[warm acorn]

Xivu is cake

By oryx’s sword logic, he should be proud of us

I think

[dim minnow]

the Echo seems to really like us

since we did kill Oryx

[warm acorn]

We’re homies

But the echo is a memory of oryx

But younger oryx?

[dim minnow]

but keep in mind that a lot of circumstances go into us killing the main enemies

[sleek matrix]

old oryx vs the one we got

[dim minnow]

the working theory is that the Echo is more like different memories of Oryx put together

not neccessarily a younger version of himself

[warm acorn]

Wouldn’t it be memories the witness had of oryx

[dim minnow]

yeah, specifically memories of Oryx viewed through the Witness

[cedar dew]

did the witness just see him as way chiller than we did

[dim minnow]

the Witness saw him as a useful, but blunt tool more like

[warm acorn]

Like a chisel

👀

Lmao

[eager trout]

Do Vex have to make it seem like they were always there when they time teavel because otherwise they'd cause a paradox?

[dim minnow]

they kind of retroactively insert themselves there

[eager trout]

Yeah, but because it's the only way that allows them to safely alter the past without their actions being undone by there not being a reason to go back in the first place, right?

[hollow hinge]

I don't think Bungie's time travel laws are as complex as you're imagining them

[eager trout]

That isn't complex, it's just basic time travel laws

"If you alter something from the past, then that thing never happened, so you wouldn't have a reason to go back and change it"

[hollow hinge]

What's the paradox that you're imagining here?

[eager trout]

This

[hollow hinge]

That's one interpretation of time travel, and I don't think it's one that Bungie follows

Considering they've leaned more into the alternate timelines in the past

[eager trout]

Only with the Vex

We have the Sundial, which is more conventional time travel

[dim minnow]

Vex percieve time differently than we do

they see it more like a Choose Your Own Adventure book where you read it like a normal book

[craggy sedge]

If you’ve done the new dungeon and stuff to open the door. What is the lore of this room and the giant thing above the chest?

[dim minnow]

the room itself is Rhulk's deepest vault

essentially where he keeps stuff he really wants hidden

as for the object itself

it is a chisel

the one that Oryx used to inscribe the secrets of the Dark into Akka's flesh

[eager trout]

Vex be like: "You encounter a forked path. You choose to go...left|right|between both"

[dim minnow]

thus creating the Tablets of Ruin (like the one that now serves as our episode artifact)

[craggy sedge]

Awesome thanks!

[warm acorn]

All simulated at the same time

[fresh zephyr]

I know I've asked this before, but would it be reasonable to think that if wyverns can rise in the air and propel themselves at fast speeds towards the ground, could they not do that to travel through the air?

[dim minnow]

probably, though maybe not to the extent Hydras and Harpies can

[eager trout]

Perhaps...

[warm acorn]

what's this from

[dim minnow]

themes for Heresy fashion contest

[sick yew]

@dim minnow good morning Dova

[dim minnow]

it's 9:38 PM for me, but good morning to you as well

[sick yew]

Thank you
So I have a question

[dim minnow]

aight

[sick yew]

I stumbled upon the loretabs of the old solstice armor and found out the back in the red war Ikora also tried to regain the light from the shard of the traveler

Except it didn't work

Do you got any clue why

[dim minnow]

we were just that guy

[sick yew]

[dim minnow]

the Traveler chose us to face down Ghaul, which we succeeded in doing

after Ghaul kicked us off his ship and we crashed into the Last City below it, we were given a vision by the Traveler

[sick yew]

But that implies the traveler had doubt a master warlock such as Ikora could pull it off no?

[dim minnow]

probably

[sick yew]

I just think it's a strange decision to deliberately have others be unable to regain their light

[dim minnow]

or maybe the Traveler knew we were all that was neccessary

[sick yew]

I'm surprised the traveler had control over the shard anyway
I always thought it was implied the shard was it's own thing kinda

[dim minnow]

I kind of get the idea that it also wasn't just a matter of the Traveler not choosing anyone else to give the Light back to, but also a matter of it not being able to

the Traveler always preferred a hands-off approach

not only that, but without the Veil, the Traveler has a hard time thinking at times

[sick yew]

So the traveler must have known that after Ikora someone else would seek the shard

Cause Ikora got there first

[dim minnow]

the Visions of the Traveler we get in the Pale Heart imply that it isn't exactly all knowing

it isn't a god, it is capable of mistakes

[sick yew]

So it hoped?

[dim minnow]

perhaps it hoped we would be enough

maybe we were the only one it was able to reach

after all, we were given that vision before Ikora got to the shard

[sick yew]

Did we get the vision when we fell off the ship?

[dim minnow]

yes

[sick yew]

Ah

Hm

Pretty big gamble by the traveler can't lie

But then again it do be the traveler

[dim minnow]

creating the Guardians in of itself was a gamble

[sick yew]

Mhm

[dim minnow]

it had hoped that by giving us power over physics and the trust of true freedom that we would choose to build a gentle city ringed with spears

and turn away any cynicism

the Post-Lightfall Tower skybox went so hard when you considered that the coalition fleet in the sky were like a ring of spears protecting our gentle city in the Traveler's absence

[sick yew]

Oh also Dova, did you know that if you use Hazardous Propulsion you carry Failsafe around with you

She seemingly build the thing cause she heard we got into the Travelers and really really wanted to join us

[dim minnow]

yeah

[sick yew]

Shits so cute

[dim minnow]

must have taken a lot of power and resources to make it given her situation

hopefully Saint convinced the Vanguard to sent some guys down to keep her company

[sick yew]

Yeah that makes it even sweeter

[dim minnow]

I hope that in Frontiers Bungie updates her spot on Nessus

[sick yew]

One can only dream
Idfc call up Ana build her an Exo body

[dim minnow]

maybe add some security frames as well as her friends, Captain Jacobson, Babata, and Petris

[dim minnow]

I don't think her systems can handle that

she's not in any good condition

[sick yew]

There is a way, there has to be

[slim girder]

She's still in the helm so she'll be with us from now on. As for giving her a body if rasputin could get one even though it wasn't able to move it's still an option. And who knows maybe she might not even want a bady prefering to just be the helms resident AI

She's fully intergrated now after the events of echoes

[dim minnow]

once Frontiers starts, we might no longer have the HELM

[slim girder]

I don't think the helm is going away anytime soon. It's still a key asset for things off planet like it's done since it's been a thing

For seasonal or even expansion stories should bungie decide to use it for that. Like it was in the pale heart at one point

The city doesn't have any kind of flagship

[sick yew]

Once we add the dreadnaught to our arsenal all will he fine

[dim minnow]

gameplay-wise, the HELM served as the Hub for seasonal storylines and only really had a non-gameplay role in two expansions

as of Revenant, the Last City Market District took over as the seasonal hub while the HELM itself crashed on Europa and was later brought to the Last City

[slim girder]

I could see the helm repaired maybe by or during frontiers. If we're going outside sol then we need a hub because to our knowledge there's nothing related to humanity except for the cult or outpost we saw in some concept art

[vapid nebula]

What is it with pyramid - kill - worm?
I thought hive and witness were making out where ever they can

[blazing wasp]

rhulks pyramid did have dead hive worms experimented on

and xita was basically kept at deaths door

[vapid nebula]

Ah

[dim minnow]

Xita being used to power the Upended is pretty much "Pyramid Drink Worm"

[warm acorn]

Drinkie

Shlurp

[sleek matrix]

She was subjugated

[royal adder]

do we know where the taken came from?

like how did they come to be

[trim grotto]

Sort of depends on what you mean. The very oldest Taken have no explicit origin, but it may be related to the Witness. The vast majority we battle, of course, were Taken by Oryx.

[sleek matrix]

Basically a being is abducted and there turned inside out

Inverted

Its not like there being remade new

But more like inverted

[royal adder]

like i understand oryx is the taken king but where did he get the power from

[sleek matrix]

From akha a worm God he slain

[royal adder]

so worm gods have the ability to take?

[sleek matrix]

Akha was the worm God of secrets

[trim grotto]

That's described in Ye Olden... Books Of Sorrow! The classic.

When Auryx slew Akka, the Worm God, he gained the ability to commune with the Deep. From there, he was taught the power to Take, and took on a new name - Oryx, the Taken King.

[trim grotto]

nay

[royal adder]

ah ok so taken power its self comes from the deep

[sleek matrix]

Wat

[royal adder]

wasnt the deep the place we went to with the big lithathan thing in season of the deep?

[trim grotto]

Auryx mugged Akka for the Deep's phone number, and then got taught to Take
Akka was not actually related to the Taken directly

[sleek matrix]

I didn't say akha was the source of taken

I just said he learned it from her being slain

[trim grotto]

Which is not quite correct

He learned to commune from Akka's death

[trim grotto]

The Deep was another word for Darkness back in the day, like the Sky was for Light.

[sleek matrix]

Initiation

[trim grotto]

Season of the Deep was simply on Titan, the ocean moon of Saturn

[trim grotto]

Pardon?

[sleek matrix]

You dont know what Initiation means?

[trim grotto]

I'm asking for elaboration.

[sleek matrix]

That's how I would describe it

Auryx and akha spoke of the power of the deep and since the power was gifted Auryx attacked Akka and slew him, then communed with the Deep himself

[trim grotto]

Akka. No H.

[sleek matrix]

When he was done the tablets of ruin were created gaining the power to take

He killed akka and then commune with the deep

[trim grotto]

Uh also not quite

Then Auryx said, “Now I may speak to the Deep, the beautiful final shape. I will be King of Shapes. I will learn all the secrets of our destiny.”

His speech to the Deep is not recorded here. But it is known that he returned, and he said, now I am Oryx, the Taken King. And I have the power to take life and make it my own.```
He took the secret to commune from Akka's corpse, the power was not gifted

[sleek matrix]

I mean he couldn't be gifted it

If he was gifted it it would of not been true to the deep

[urban zenith]

Can someone explain what the fuck is this giant crystal Orbs aka balls?

[trim grotto]

That Prophesy? The Nine just have a particular aesthetic. It's possible they represent planets, though not on a one to one scale, naturally.

[urban zenith]

Oh I see

[ember storm]

pondering my orb

[slim girder]

Stuff from the nine can represent anything really. that's their whole thing

[eager trout]

They're giant crystal orbs

How did Oryx end up on Titan?

[trim grotto]

Titan's a moon of Saturn, and the Dreadnaught was parked up there in the rings.

He just... fell.

[eager trout]

But doesn't the cutscene show him like... warping out of existence? Like he was sucked into a single point?

[trim grotto]

At the end of King's Fall, he just floats off, dead, into space.

King's Fall comes after the campaign.

[jagged badge]

Taken King’s campaign isn’t where Oryx died yeah

[sick yew]

We went to kill him
And then killed him again

[cloud gust]

I’m confused
What is it exactly that is in the Vault in Sundered Doctrine?

I saw it
I just have no clue what it is

[sick yew]

I think it's about the bigass worm corpse in the boss room

Might be wrong tho

[cloud gust]

That’s not it
The quest allows us to open the vault door and something ||Oryx related is in it||

[sick yew]

Oh you mean the vault door

Sorry I thought you were referring to 2nd encounter

[cloud gust]

https://youtu.be/-bUuf7p2NFE?si=-5VEzyuzH6SExfV1

Man I’m dumb as fuck

It’s what Oryx used to carve the Tablets of Ruin

[sick yew]

You don't need to spoiler tag it btw

[cloud gust]

Oh ok

[slim girder]

It's a chisel oryx used to carve the tablets of ruin with the secrets to taking.

[sleek matrix]

Oryx has his chisel xivu hammer

Forgot savathun

[jagged badge]

Scalpel iirc

[sleek matrix]

Which is weird because is it like a physical object?

I thought it was more of a metaphor

[ember storm]

Wdym

How did you think the tablets of ruin were made

He had to literally carve out the tablets

[sleek matrix]

No Ik that

But the other ones

The hammer and scalpel

[ember storm]

I don’t know that I haven’t played the dungeon

[slim girder]

I don't see why not.
Why wouldn't gods have a preferred weapon/tool to sell what they embody.

Oryx did say he used the scalpel and hammer to make the dreadnaught so that confirms they are real things

[sleek matrix]

But the books of sorrows can be
exaggerated

[ember storm]

Exaggeration means it’s still based on actual events

What is there to exaggerate

[sleek matrix]

Its hive history but from oryx perspective

[ember storm]

Oryx literally hacked up a god and carved it into a vehicle

Did you think he did it with his bare hands

[slim girder]

Yes and from that perspective, he used a hammer and a scalpel from his siblings to build his ship

[sleek matrix]

But isn't the books of sorrow more of a religious text too

[slim girder]

No it's a history book

[fluid peak]

There is truth in the books of sorrow

[slim girder]

It documents the history of the hive and is the reason we even know where the hive came from

[fluid peak]

Some of it is questionable, but the stuff about the Dreadnaught is verifiably true

Because we literally see it

And we have seen the chisel

Why would only one of three be real

And not just
All 3

[sleek matrix]

Sure yea there is

But I wouldn't take it as hoil grail

Overall

[fluid peak]

I wouldn't take anything in D2 lore bar what we literally see as objective truth

[sleek matrix]

The unveiling too was like that

[slim girder]

Even with this episode we have the hive siblings repeating things that we've read about in the books of sorrow.
Again it's a history book for the hive and while things like the creation of the hive turned out to be a lie told by the witness, it's still telling us how the hive were created and why they do what they do

[fluid peak]

It's the hives understanding of how the hive came to be and what they have been

[sleek matrix]

I found it funny oryx called xivu a heretic

[fluid peak]

He's right though

[sleek matrix]

Yea he is

[fluid peak]

(savathun is also right, they're all hypocrites and ignore the sword logic when it benefits them to)

[sleek matrix]

Xivu wanted to revenge oryx when that goes against the sword logic

Oryx was defeated and by her own logic it is what it is

[fluid peak]

If xivu wants the Dreadnaught, she can come and take it. From us. :)

[sleek matrix]

That's why the episode is called heresy

[fluid peak]

It's probably not

[sleek matrix]

Soma happens

That is heresy

Down the line

[fluid peak]

Hive pantheon sibling rivalry is not the focus of the episode

[fluid peak]

It sure is! But it's not the reason the episode is called that

[sleek matrix]

I'm hoping toland gets some involvement

And bungie doesn't forget about him

[fluid peak]

[sleek matrix]

[fluid peak]

We're way over the standard limit of characters involved in seasonal story

No way Toland shows up

[sleek matrix]

Yea unfortunately

And theres been no marketing material of toland mentioned

But it does feel like a missed opportunity

[fluid peak]

Toland is kinda just

Gone

[sleek matrix]

[fluid peak]

He's one of those side characters bungie invokes in lore tabs rather than gameplay

[empty fern]

Had a brain fart
Why does Lunas howl and not forgotten have the same lore tab

[slim girder]

Not really missed it's just there's not much else that can be done with him.
Like we already know he doesn't like that we reject the sword logic and didn't take oryxs throne. What more is there to it? He's just a tiny bodyless floating orb in the ascendant plane.

He can't actually do anything except watch. Even with the echo i don't think he could do much with it.

[ember storm]

I would be genuinely upset if toland ever becomes plot relevant

He deserves to be forgotten and waved off as a rumor

[slim girder]

I'm all for him popping up whenever the hive are involved like I was half expecting him to have some words when we came back to the dreadnaught but I'm also not upset that he's not there.

[hollow hinge]

Okay maybe it's just me

But I have an idea on how this could go down...
Xivu (and maybe Savathun too) manage to revive Oryx thanks to the Echo and when that happens he's furious as he doesn't think he deserves to live but the only thing more heretical than being alive at that point would be to take his own life so instead of joining his sisters, he joins his slayer... the one who "claimed" his life

and at the end of the episode he takes the dreadnought out of the system to explore unknown frontiers

[sleek matrix]

I think we kill the dread boss

[hollow hinge]

Also kind of allows this version of him to somewhat redeem himself, which as we all know is Bungie 101

[sleek matrix]

And oryx is like ur worthy

And we get the echo maybe

There's no way the echo can stay with oryx like solane said

[hollow hinge]

Either in the form of Oryx or the Dreadnought or some other form and that's how we go outside Sol in Frontiers

[hollow hinge]

Well Oryx as we knew him, sure

[sleek matrix]

Idk if the dreadnought can move

Its been rotting out for years

And decaying

[hollow hinge]

But if his sisters prove to be complete heretics he may not want to side with them

[ember storm]

Why is this a common complaint

Who is part of this trend

[strong tendon]

Eh yeah tbf they’ve only tried to redeem Eramis. And they have failed spectacularly.

Anyone who says savathun just does not pay attention at all

[ember storm]

I wouldn’t even really call it a redemption

Like she’s just fucked off and actually doing her own thing like she said she would

Do people want to go and stop her? I’m happy she’s gone

[strong tendon]

But yeah. I don’t see the villain redemptions

I’ve heard people say “xivu will get redeemed”. Nah. First of all she’s a lunatic. Second, she’s committed so many atrocities that are literally impossible to forgive

[quiet yacht]

Does anyone think her mother would intervene?

Any time soon

[sick yew]

Her mother?

[quiet yacht]

Yeah what’s her name again

[strong tendon]

I think you mean taox and she wasn’t their mother

[quiet yacht]

Yeah her eh motherly-ish figure I would say

[strong tendon]

We don’t know where taox is or if she is even alive

Krill had very short life spans

And it’s been millennia

[ember storm]

She staged the death of the king and tried to take the throne

[strong tendon]

She did get cryofrozen at some point but we don’t know if she’s alive still

And she is kinda irrelevant now anyways she has nothing to add to the story. She has no power

[quiet yacht]

Damn

Now just makes me wonder what direction they gonna go with the hive at this point

[strong tendon]

Unless she somehow is still alive and then somehow gets her hands on an echo. Which is very unlikely

[ember storm]

Yeah she was basically just royal conflict person for the Shakespearean aspect of the krill’s story

[strong tendon]

Well savathun isn’t our ally. She only allies with us in certain situations if you can even call it that. And there’s still xivu

[hollow hinge]

Not a complaint in this case, just making a point to support my theory

[strong tendon]

oryx hasn’t claimed the echo. He is the echo. It’s a snapshot of who he was just after communing with the deep and becoming the taken king

[sleek matrix]

I mean we need to destroy him

[strong tendon]

We do but i don’t think we will. We don’t even know how to destroy an echo or if we even can

[sleek matrix]

We killed oryx once we can do it again

[strong tendon]

He wasn’t a spooky memory ghost made of pure light and darkness before.

[sleek matrix]

True

He does have access to the light now aswell

[strong tendon]

Wonder how he’ll react when he’s told that his memory is being brought to existence by the light

Or that savathun is now a lightbearer

[dim minnow]

not exactly a snapshot, but Oryx as the Witness remember him

[strong tendon]

Did the witness just leave oryx be after guiding his hand to carve the tablets of ruin?

I don’t remember the witness having much interaction or bearing on oryx. The witness mostly concerned itself with savathun and xivu

[ember storm]

The assumption is that the first time oryx communed with the “deep” it was the witness where he learned how to take

Subsequent communions were then with the winnower who he spent the most time with which is where “my man oryx” would come from

[lyric karma]

What happened to cabal legions from 1st game and how red legion took their place on Mars?

[ember storm]

They were scout and research teams

They were either absorbed into red legion ranks or just died out like the ones on the Dreadnaught

[empty fern]

[desert tree]

weird ask
but is there an Exo Guardian with the name "Bingo"?

[sick yew]

Why do you ask?

[desert tree]

I was curious if the name was taken bc I was gonna give that name to my Titan
Bingo-5

[sick yew]

And no, according to the Ishtar search the word "Bingo" only shows up 3 times in the history of the games lore and dialogue with all 3 instances being the usualy way the word is used by characters

Interesting that the word "Bingo" has only ever been said by 3 characters in all of destiny lore

By Sagira, Amanda and Drifter

[desert tree]

every one of those characters would be weird if they didn't

[sick yew]

I guess tho now that I think of it I could swear Failsafe said it at some point

[strong tendon]

Feel like cayde would have said it atleast once

Or Immaru

Maybe even savathun

[versed orbit]

that's a bingo

[lean comet]

Hypothesis:
Light = WD-40, Dark = Duct tape

[trim grotto]

[hollow zealot]

why dont we just bring the dreadnaught into the ascendant plane and blow up the core there

I think itll be very funny

[jagged badge]

[next bobcat]

Do we know anything about the tungsten monoliths referenced in the books of sorrow?

[trim grotto]

No, not really.

[eager trout]

What is Divinity?

[jagged badge]

A trace rifle

[trim grotto]

[jagged badge]

[eager trout]

Yes, but what is it?

[jagged badge]

An exotic trace rifle?

[eager trout]

What is it supposed to be?

[jagged badge]

A trace rifle??

[eager trout]

What's its lore?

[ember storm]

It’s just a vex thing they made for the sake of it iirc

They just tend to do that

[hollow zealot]

trace rifle made by the sanctified mind as a last attempt

[eager trout]

Why can we wield it?

[hollow zealot]

because we became vex

Asher mir's technical knowledge

[trim grotto]

Sol Divisive tech from the Black Garden. Related vaguely to the Witness.

[next bobcat]

"There is another thread in the tapestry, entwined with this one. The Vex, or some fractal faction of them, worship or honor a… divinity there."
"The Black Heart? It was destroyed."
"Yes, but this is something different. An object. Something like a sacred relic. It is important to the Vex for reasons that we have not yet fathomed. The Circle has determined that it is dangerous—"
"A Vex weapon?"
Divinity lore tab

[next bobcat]

We what

[trim grotto]

(Ignore everything just said by Mishka.)

[next bobcat]

Uh ok

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/kentarch-3-suit-warlock
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/kentarch-3-suit-titan
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/kentarch-3-suit-hunter
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/never-live-it-down
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/divinity
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-mnemosyne

The story of the Kentarch 3 spans a series of lore tabs

Tying into the Black Garden, Sol Divisive, Witness, corruption, betrayal, and more.

[strong tendon]

Is that the lore where they mention a guardian wielding “dark void”

[trim grotto]

I believe you're thinking of Sola from the Trials sets

[strong tendon]

Oh right what was that about

[trim grotto]

In short? Corrupted Guardian willingly following the siren song of Darkness. Not like we ended up doing with Stasis, but more like the Shadows of Yor sort of deal - diving too deep.

[next bobcat]

Who wrote verse 2:4 of books of sorrow? I believe it’s called 52 and one. The tone is a lot more casual, I’m wondering if it’s a worm, it’s noticeably different to the other verses.

[hollow hinge]

@trim grotto thoughts on my theory from earlier tonight?

[trim grotto]

It reads as the Worm Gods. One of them, anyway.

Seth liked doing the casual vibe for some of the enemies.

[trim grotto]

I'm honestly not sure if the Dreadnaught is in a state for that, but... if he ends up being resurrected... that seems plausible.

[hollow hinge]

It's the echo of navigation, no?

If anything can get that old piece of junk moving again it would be that lol

[eager trout]

Thanks

[trim grotto]

Haha yeah maybe so

[next bobcat]

It’s a cool theory I have to say.

[next bobcat]

My man oryx

[trim grotto]

Exactly haha

[sleek matrix]

winnower sounds so cool

[next bobcat]

Reading lore books has really expanded my lore understanding

I’ve read unveiling and I’m partway through books of sorrows

[slim girder]

Very nice

[trim grotto]

Books of Sorrow are great
Though they kinda made Witch Queen's plot twist... not be a plot twist, haha

"The Worm Gods lied to us!???!111//??!!?!"

lmao yeah obviously, the leviathan said so at the start of the books you dummies

[next bobcat]

I hadn’t read them so I got to experience it and it was like eeoahh

Also, what are those circle icons in Ishtar? I believe they’re based around how much info the lore contains on that topic

[trim grotto]

Uh, depends on what you mean. Could you show me?

[trim grotto]

Hover over the icon

[next bobcat]

I’m on mobile

[trim grotto]

It's how relevant the category is

Loosely related, for example, is the bottom icon there

[next bobcat]

So I was kind of right

Verse 3:0 says “Aia”, not “Aiat”. What’s that about?

[next bobcat]

Ah

Makes sense

[trim grotto]

Tox is probably right

[next bobcat]

Yeah

[next bobcat]

Out of all 4 hive gods at their prime, who was the strongest?

[ember storm]

Four?

[next bobcat]

Eris

[slim girder]

It was Eris but only for about a minute or so

[next bobcat]

Yeah because she killed savathun

Would hive Eris beat prime oryx?

[ember storm]

She was quote “the strongest hive who ever lived”

So probably

[slim girder]

Probably. As ikora said she was the most powerful hive in existence

Killing savathun is an enormous feat because savathun has only actually died i believe 3 times
(Proper deaths that cause events, not deaths like what saint did to her)

[next bobcat]

1 - oryx,
2 - worm removal?
3 - Eris

What’s the second time?

[slim girder]

Us.

[next bobcat]

Ah good point

(Not me forgetting the entirety of the witch queen campaign)

Could you, theoretically, combine ether and radiolaria to make a fallen/vex hybrid?

[strong tendon]

I assume, like most things in the universe, the radiolaria would convert it into itself

[next bobcat]

So if you replaced a fallen’s ether with radiolaria it would basically become vex?

[strong tendon]

I think so?

Hard to say. Haven’t really seen radiolaria interact with gaseous substances

I mean it doesn’t convert the oxygen around it so. Maybe not?

[next bobcat]

Mmmm

Theorising

Is the gift mast = the radial mast?

[slim girder]

Probably not. Radiolaria would just eat it. Contact with radiolaria almost always ends up in something just being absorbed by the vex

[slim girder]

No. The radial mast was destroyed in lightfall.

[next bobcat]

Do we know what the radial mast is?

[dim minnow]

could be a relic from the Witness' precursors

hmmm

I wonder if it was what the Precursors used when they tried to link the Traveler and Veil the first time

[next bobcat]

Perhaps

Since we killed Oryx, did we subsume his power via touch of malice?

[dim minnow]

the intent was that ToM was going to let Oryx "live on" in a way when we take up his mantle and "become him"

however, we did not take his Throne

[cloud gust]

Which Xivu Arath was pissed about

[next bobcat]

Explain?

Why does that matter?

[cloud gust]

It disrespects the Sword Logic

[dim minnow]

Xivu Arath cares a lot about Oryx

[cloud gust]

That too

[dim minnow]

more importantly, it disrespects Oryx

[cloud gust]

It’s in one of the Ghosts of the Deep collectibles

[next bobcat]

We killed him, did we need to claim his throne to accept his power?

[cloud gust]

No not really

[next bobcat]

Would the guardian become the taken king then?

[dim minnow]

if we did claim his Throne, then we would have taken up his mantle

[next bobcat]

Ah I see.

[cloud gust]

That’s what Oryx wants us to do now though
Or something along those lines

[next bobcat]

So xivu was pissed because we essentially killed oryx and emoted on his grave

[cloud gust]

Yep that’s the gist of it

[next bobcat]

Cold

[cloud gust]

Savathûn on the other hand is more indifferent about it
Yes she cares about Oryx
But she refused to become “The Taken Queen”

[next bobcat]

So is Keith the pseudo-taken queen?

[cloud gust]

Is that the Subjugator that killed Eris

[dim minnow]

Kieth is a nickname we gave to her

[cloud gust]

The Subjugator?

[dim minnow]

yes

[cloud gust]

Ah gotcha

[cloud gust]

We know almost nothing about them
While I do know that they have some commanding power, the Echo of Navigation is what is in control of these Taken

In my opinion

[next bobcat]

Yeah, fair

Being oryx and all

When oryx communed with the deep, was that the witness, or directly to the winnower?

[dim minnow]

it's possible that when Oryx first gained the power to take, he met the Witness while subsequent encounters were with the Winnower

[next bobcat]

Interesting

So the echo of navigation is based on oryx as the witness remembered him.

Which is before crota or the twins, I’m pretty sure

[dim minnow]

that is what it seems like

[dim minnow]

it could be that the Echo isn't simply Oryx from that time

that there are some other later memories put in as well

[next bobcat]

Xivu (but an emissary) and savathûn had to tell him about the guardian killing him, so I’m not sure

[cloud gust]

Based on what he said, it’s a memory of him after he had just slain Akka and carved the Tablets of Ruin

[next bobcat]

We have one of those right?

[dim minnow]

I hear that there are some inconsistencies with that though

the Dreadnaught came after Crota and the Deathsinger twins

[next bobcat]

Yeah weird

[dim minnow]

maybe it's just that the Echo was attracted to Oryx's Throne World which is in the Dreadnaught

[next bobcat]

Speaking of throne worlds, could you just never be in your throne world and be truly immortal?

Just, like, don’t go there

[dim minnow]

if you get killed outside of it, your soul goes back to it

and since it's your own throne world, you could put in safeguards to keep it protected

[next bobcat]

So you could have guardians stationed there to ambush you after you were killed outside

[dim minnow]

with Crota's, we had to go to the deepest reaches of the Moon and fight our way to its entrance, then we had to fight our way to him

[next bobcat]

Why did oryx basically let us into his throne world? Was it hubris?

[dim minnow]

well the problem is that it's not easy to get in one as you may think

[dim minnow]

well for starters we had to get to the Drednaught itself which was a challenge

we had to obtain stealth tech so we could get close enough without its superweapon obliterating us (RIP Eris' ship)

once we were there, we had to actually reach Oryx which was also another challenge

[next bobcat]

Oh

I was under the impression he invited us

[dim minnow]

we had to become Ascendant which we did by breaking into a Warmind facility for more stealth tech so we could go back into Crota's Throne World and steal his essence

oh, we also had to steal a piece of Crystal that held his soul at some point

and both of those incidents we barely escaped from

then, we were able to go after Oryx properly

of course, we had to prove ourself by beating two powerful Taken he had

an Ogre and a Colossus

and after a 1v1 fight, we forced him to retreat which then led to the Kings Fall raid

which in of itself was another ordeal

[next bobcat]

Does he take hive because it makes them more powerful?

[dim minnow]

and the only reason this was possible was because his Throne World was somewhat accessible with it being in the Dreadnaught

[dim minnow]

partly that, but it also makes them loyal to his will

[next bobcat]

Sure

Why didn’t he take the warpriest?

[dim minnow]

Warpriest was already pretty loyal and strong

and perhaps Oryx thought it would be more interesting

maybe he understood that while Taken are more powerful, they couldn't really ascend through the Sword Logic

to Oryx, a foe he takes is a foe he defeats

[next bobcat]

Yeah ok

[next bobcat]

What made Luzaku defect and join us?

[dim minnow]

she technically didn't defect

as for why she isn't like the rest of the Lucent Brood

well, she just doesn't want to

she wants to see another way

[next bobcat]

They can do that?

I thought they were all part of the hive mind or whatever

[dim minnow]

Hive aren;t even a Hive Mind

they're just way too indoctrinated in their Sword Logic (Pyramid Scheme)

[trim grotto]

There is no Hive hive mind

[frigid sparrow]

"This one is Luzaku. Here, this one tells what is known of Sky.

Sky is the breath taken between actions. It permits speculation. It invites doubt. It slips from sight and grasp, and yet persists....

...This one seeks Sky. In the Sky, there are many paths.

In the Sky, there is change."

also notable that savathun just doesn't give a shit lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKejUKb6jBY

[warm acorn]

What’s the latest on lore?

[fiery rover]

eris died. removed her mask. drifter angry

thats what i took from it

[warm acorn]

huh

[desert tree]

quick question: what are these Halo ODST Drop Pods around Calus's flagship?

[blazing wasp]

it looks like just regular ol' pyramid architecture

[strong tendon]

If throne worlds start deteriorating after the death of their owner, why isn’t the dreadnaught deteriorating?

[blazing wasp]

oryx' is pretty weird, because its in realspace

[desert tree]

also, im pretty sure it is deteriorating, just very slowly

[jagged badge]

Tbf, they note that it’s deteriorating due to Taken corruption feeding off of the flesh of the ship

[sleek matrix]

Dreadnought has been around for eons

It will take a long time

[slim girder]

The dreadnaught is like the Leviathan. A derelict ship that is just going to sit in space withering away and honestly it might not even be a ship and may as well be its own place considering how much they've been decaying.

[sick yew]

I mean the Leviathan has only been decaying cause Calus thought id be a good idea to invite the scorn to it with his experiments and also cause he parked that shit next to DA MOOON

[keen oracle]

What would happen if the echo of navigation made contact with oryxs body?

[slim girder]

No clue.

We don't even know if oryxs body has actually been secured or is just being watched while it sits under titans ocean

[ember storm]

it'd probably just go like "wow what a loser i'm glad i was killed"

[keen oracle]

Oryx asking the guardian “im not supposed to be alive, kill me again.”

oryx this season after he finds out you killed him

https://tenor.com/view/bornskywalker-dap-me-up-woody-woody-handshake-woody-toy-story-gif-26021440

Hes dapping you up, hes giving you his inheritance

Your basically the son or daughter he never had

[slim girder]

I like it how he calls us "Heir presumptive" because this is a younger version of oryx than the one we killed.

[cloud gust]

Besides being used to carve the Tablets of Ruin, what exactly is so powerful about Oryx’s Scalpel that we cannot let anyone get their hands on it?

[sick yew]

Its probably an extremely powerful (and thus dangerous) artifact of hive magic

[slim girder]

Chisel.
Also yes as Alex said it is probably extremely powerful in other uses. Like what else could it be used to carve? It still has taken energy on it.

If the dread wanted it to "remake" themselves then it could have some other kind of power

[cloud gust]

I’m stupid that’s what I meant to say

[strong tendon]

Well Rhulk felt it necessary to keep it in a vault in the depths of his pyramid so that must tell you enough

[lofty badge]

i am surprised we can't see the the Leviathan from earth

given it is orbiting the moon

then again likly just bungie not adding it to any earth sky box

[strong tendon]

I wonder if we’re just gonna leave it to rot or try to use it at some point. I mean. It’s just there

[slim girder]

It's not orbiting. It's just sitting in the same spot in space. Honestly could just be the angle so we can't see it. And compared to the moon it is actually pretty small.

Nessus is way smaller than our moon

[lofty badge]

oh okay fair

[lofty badge]

and is still full of darkenss infused alien fungi

it could still be full of scorn and cabal clones tbh

[strong tendon]

Cleanse it

[slim girder]

Not worth the resources

[lofty badge]

to be safe we should fly it into the sun

[strong tendon]

Has any enemy tried to take control of it yet? It eats planets. That seems pretty good to have

[slim girder]

Also not a good idea.
If the dreadnaught can cause a supernova of its core was destroyed then I wouldn't be surprised if what's powering the Leviathan could do the same

[slim girder]

No. As of now it's just an egregore infested derelict sitting in space near the moon.

Nothing of interest there unless we get something like sundered doctrine where there's some artefact we haven't seen before hidden inside the ship.

[strong tendon]

I guess the leviathan will forever live on in duality

[lofty badge]

why can't they give us it back as a patrol zone

😔

[chrome fog]

I’m of the mind that she’s been wanting this kind of independence from the Hive - supported both by that clip and by her dialogue when the Echo of Oryx starts talking in this act’s Finale

As to why she herself hasn’t, the investment she and her siblings have had on this giant revenge crusade that’s predicated on a lie should at the very least make her feel like she has nothing else going for her other than sticking to playing the villain

[keen oracle]

Thinking about the echo of navigation hurts my brain

Cause you have to wonder

Does that mean theres 2 oryxs now

If he remains the way he is will her turn out different from the oryx we know

[sleek matrix]

Other oryx is dead

This oryx is a memory of oryx around the time he just slew akka

[keen oracle]

All I know is that I like this guy more

Hes not trying to kill me

He’s giving us gifts

What a guy

[dull raft]

dead + turned into a gun

[ember storm]

*dead + his heart was ripped out and transplanted into the firing mechanism of an existing weapon frame

[chrome fog]

I would like to ask if the previous echos are also copies of specific individuals

I was under the impression that the Revenant one was a conglomerate Echo of Riis but I also need to catch up on all the lore tabs

[jagged badge]

Woah it Gestaltzerfall

[chrome fog]

I would’ve made a sooner return but account got compromised and I lost the dms with the server bot

[ember storm]

Oh yeah

I think I handled that situation well

[chrome fog]

My b with that for anyone that got messaged by the scammer

[empty fern]

This mf LIVES

Also got a friend request

Is that you or the bot

[chrome fog]

Is me, bot has been ERADICATED from the face of the earth

[empty fern]

Yippee

(First every friend request from this nerd ever)

[chrome fog]

Gonna see if I can ping Dova tomorrow to ask about the story told by lore entries for the previous two episodes, I’ve been fully swamped with college to focus on reading the entries and keep up

[dim minnow]

hello Gestal

[chrome fog]

Hi Dova! I got my account back, I’m so sorry the scammer that got my account messaged you!

[dim minnow]

yeah, I ended up giving them by dob before noping out of there

I'm not that smart when it comes to these things

I lost a TF2 unusual that way previously

luckily nothing came out of that

[chrome fog]

Me neither, I got got cause it was my friend whose account got compromised and messaged me the same way

[dim minnow]

anyways, were you wanting to ask me about the supplemental story content for the first two episodes?

[chrome fog]

How’s the channel been? Anything interesting happen while I was gone?

[chrome fog]

Yeppers

[dim minnow]

for starters, Revenant sadly didn't have one

it just had a really good lore book on Eliksni pre-whirlwind

[chrome fog]

Daww

[chrome fog]

But neato

[dim minnow]

it was about an Eliksni apothecary initiate working with an experienced Slayer Baron to hunt down what might have been a Taken

it seems to have happened not long before the Whirlwind

Chelchis also appears in it

she's pretty cool

anyways, for Echoes

so the first entry detailed what was going on with Failsafe before the Echo of Command first crashed on Nessus

at this point, it had been a while since anyone really visited her

even Bungie recognized that they kinda neglected her story-wise

some Fallen were trying to salvage from her wreckage and she couldn't really do anything about it due to the state she has been in for centuries

she gets a request from Ada-1 who wanted to access her ship's old shader archive

Failsafe approved her request and wanted to add a cheerful comment with it, but she couldn't bring herself to do so

then the Echo crashed on Nessus, scaring the Fallen that were salvaging her away

she then calls in the Vanguard, and so the story for Echoes began

the second entry is a collection of reports from guardians witnessing sightings of strange Vex activity

basically the Vex that were under the effect of the Echo of Command (referred to as the Nessian Schism by Bungie) are acting as individuals

way different from normal Vex

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/ii-isolated-incidents#book-polyphony

pretty good read if you got the time

entry three details a meeting Mithrax had with Saint-14 after the end of act 1

after Saint was temporarily under the Echo's influence

Mithrax was trying to comfort Saint and to try and assure him that he shouldn't listen to the Echo of Command

it was also our first hint that Mithrax was not doing so well (ingame at least)

entry 4 delves into the Conductor

it's a series of her personal logs after she entered the Vex Network

she managed to get into the Vex historical logs of Earth and discovered what had happened over the years

there she decides that Humanity had regressed and that she needs to bring forth a new Golden Age as she is learning how to use the Echo of Command

entry 5 reveals what had happened when the Echo of Command first crashed on Nessus and entered the Vex network

several people in there including simulations of the Ishtar Scientist, Echoes of Osiris, what remained of Asher Mir, and maybe Praedyth were racing to the Echo, trying to get to it first

of course, we know who managed to get it

the entry also mentions an entity called the "Not-Worm" or "The Great Quiet Thing" was present, but did not go for the Echo

yeah I really want to know wtf that was about

[chrome fog]

That’s a pretty neat way to retroactively introduce the current time’s history to someone who would’ve not been around for these events

[dim minnow]

like you can;t just drop something like that in a lore entry and not elaborate any further

anyways, moving on to entry 6

[chrome fog]

These and the different echoes/copies going after the capital-E Echo are extremely intriguing

[dim minnow]

Entry 6 starts with a simulated Maya and Chioma living in a safe haven they made in the Vex Net happily

it;s implied that they are based on our timeline where the Veil Containment logs happened

likely supposed to be the Chioma who threw herself into the VexNet out of grief where she found her Maya and helped her move away from her craziness

only for the entry to transition to the Conductor repairing a damaged Chioma exo body

the exo wakes up and is in agony while the Conductor gets ready to question her

[chrome fog]

That brings up a point, remind me did that Conducter Maya integrate any variants of Maya into herself?

[dim minnow]

oh, it also seems like that while the simulations are in exo bodies, the bodies are covered in a layer of digitized flesh

[chrome fog]

Mmmmmm android gore, fun

[dim minnow]

we aren't quite sure whether or not the Conductor is simply our Maya, or an amalgamation of multiple Mayas

the former does seem very likely

or at least the Conductor is mostly derived from our Maya

entry 7 is about the Conductor again

it shows her not long after she first obtained the Echo of COmmand

she managed to create a body for herself and starts looking for her Chioma

she's kinda in coping mode and is a little desperate

which you can tell by looking at what she was doing to the other Chioma simulations

[chrome fog]

Also just read over the entry, I could be misremembering but this feels like it parallels to a dialogue that might’ve played during one of the exotic mission runs

[dim minnow]

well the mission does give us audio logs of Maya's interrogations

entry 8 is a meeting between Osiris and Nimbus

Osiris feels guilty for what he did when he tried to save Saint because he thinks he is more like the Conductor than he realized

Nimbus assures him that he is nothing like the Conductor

in conclusion, post-Lightfall campaign Nimbus writing goes hard

[chrome fog]

I remember reading this and yeah, it was pretty kino

[dim minnow]

the last entry is a pretty hopeful one

it shows that Failsafe is finally getting more attention from others

Nimbus, Eido, etc.

and for once, due to the increased Guardian presence on Nessus, Failsafe is able to build up her power reserves

which were always dangerously low

[chrome fog]

Speaking of, with Frontiers/Apollo being us going out beyond Sol and a soon to be cleaned out Dreadnaught when we kick the Echo and its Taken forces’ butt completely, it would be hilarious if somehow we hitched Failsafe into the Dreadnaught systems

[dim minnow]

I like to think that Heresy may end with the Echo of Navigation and us coming to an understanding and giving himself over to us fully

[chrome fog]

Yeah I’m of the same mind that one way or the other, Echo Oryx is going to be buddy buddy with us in the end, and I was thinking on how funny it would be not only if the Vanguard picked his brain on all the civilizations he learned about in his time, but the public too

Like just a big wispy ghost giant standing watch over the City and like anyone could take an elevator to ask him about pedantic stuff or actual unknowns they could only dream of that he could have experienced first hand

[dim minnow]

we already have the World's Grave and the Books of Sorrow

I wonder how he will react to learning about the truth behind the Hive's creation

[chrome fog]

Ye but like, imagine if he told us all about the biology of that one weird species I remember some people theorized was the Witness or similar to the Witness, the uuuuhhhh Qugu or smth. And then imagine that for countless other species!

[dim minnow]

sure the Books of Sorrow state that he didn;t really care anymore at a certain point

[dim minnow]

oh fun fact, Echoes has a lore book on them

[chrome fog]

WHY ECHOES

WHAT

[dim minnow]

it's only three entries long, but each entry is pretty lengthy

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/john-jonah-jameson-lol-laughing-hysterically-laughing-out-loud-funny-gif-17710543

[dim minnow]

it details their war against the Hive and ended with how they were wiped out

turns out they actually did kind of worship the Witness

[chrome fog]

I’m in shambles, why in Echoes of all the episodes

That’s hilarious and just. Baffling

[dim minnow]

kind of because they had a Pyramid ship in their possession that Savathun stole

[chrome fog]

Wh

Holy shit

[dim minnow]

because people theorize that the Echo of Command was made from the Witness's memories of the Qugu

[chrome fog]

Ooooohhhhhhhhh

[dim minnow]

it also ends in Oryx showing up during the Qugu's final battle with Savathun

[chrome fog]

That’s interesting; plus they did have a hive mind thing that was similar but separate to the Witness’, right?

Makes sense how that could work with what the Conductor was capable of doing

[dim minnow]

the remaining Qugu end up shattering the Pyramid and die out with it

I really wish Revenant had a supplemental story book

I wanted to know more about what Fikrul was thinking

[bright stream]

can someone pls tell me why sloane of all ppl is the one teaching how to be taken? no spoilers im just starting ep 3

[dim minnow]

when the Witness made Titan and 3 other places disappear, Sloane chose to stay behind

it was there that she was partially Taken, but with the help of Ahsa, a proto-worm (Worm God before being a Worm God), she was able to resist the influence it had on her

[bright stream]

ohh

man i wish lore pertaining to the main story is actually shown

[chrome fog]

This was a part of Season of the Deep

https://youtu.be/KaGlQzU9Jms?si=X3bSU3Ir8unoFFFT

[dim minnow]

the stuff that happened while she was stuck on Titan was all in writing only though

[chrome fog]

Also man. Been a while since I’ve listened to Lance’s voice

[bright stream]

ohh thanks

still kinda wish they give recaps

[chrome fog]

It’s been a hot minute since I’ve checked the timeline on the destinations page, but there should be some rudimentary recaps of previous seasons leading up to/building from each expansion

[dim minnow]

best we really got is the ingame timeline section, though it's been a while since some of the seasonal stuff got properly updated

[bright stream]

its more like a description like before u play it

[dim minnow]

only for stuff Seraph and beyond

[chrome fog]

I dunno if I’m remembering a video on the official D2 page or if this was a cutscene in-game, but there is a quick rundown of everything building up to Final Shape

[slim girder]

That's in the timeline

That menu on the top right of the destination screen

[next bobcat]

Also Ishtar timeline is cool

[next bobcat]

What’s the state of fundament right now?

[sick yew]

Unknown afaik

[sick yew]

Ikr, ive been reading through it a lot these past days

[next bobcat]

I’m going through it

Led me to unveiling, shattered suns, and books of sorrow

The latter is incredibly long but detailed

[sick yew]

Go give Most Loyal a read

Give some nice info on the events that lead to Forsaken

And it follows best boy Variks

[trim grotto]

Nobody knows. The origin of the Hive was eons ago, potentially billions of years.

[sick yew]

I think its been 3 months actually

[merry olive]

ok so like
if the valence is supposedly dimming
then the nine are totally about to make their move on all that untapped power before it's gone right

[chrome fog]

What’s the Valence?

[merry olive]

the aurora that's emitting from the traveler following excision

and according to the lore tab of anamnesis, the heresy bow, it's dimming

[chrome fog]

Interesting

And that would make sense, it’s been a year since the Traveler’s been as active as it has for Final Shape, I imagine it’s going to try and return to a slumber sooner or later

[strong tendon]

It’s still healing

The damage the witness made was deep

[chrome fog]

Which is exactly what would warrant a deep rest for recovery

[next bobcat]

Would also be the reason why were hoarding those nine iPhones

[merry olive]

yeah, there's no way we're not doing something nine-related soon

[next bobcat]

My theory is that to get to the outermost reaches of space (in frontiers), we’ll need the help of the nine

[strong tendon]

My theory is we will get exactly 9 curio of the nine

[warm acorn]

What exactly is the nine’s purpose

[merry olive]

see i'm not even entirely sold on the idea that "your destiny lies beyond the solar system" means "beyond" in the sense of real physical space

for all we know
it could mean another plane
like the distributary

[slow berry]

is there a meaning to the number of tally marks here?

[trim grotto]

None given.

[chrome fog]

They kinda just exist, beings dependent on the Sol System and the life existing within

[chrome fog]

Didn’t they explain they wanted to explore outside the Sol System in a literal sense? The underlying insinuation is that it is that first meaning when they say “Beyond the Solar System” cause we already traverse the Ascendent Plane on the regular, and hopped into the Vex Network not that long ago

[plain topaz]

If the veil is basically the travelers opposite, why is it so much smaller then the traveler

[ember storm]

Isn’t that what opposite would imply

[trim grotto]

There is also a suggestion that it was once part of the Traveler as a single being

[rapid girder]

what are aphelions really capable of

[trim grotto]

We don't know a ton about them. We know they're space faring, somehow. They're monstrous predators, walls mean nothing to them, they're radioactive, and only Sjur Eido ever survived an encounter. The inhabitants of Bamberga station were slaughtered, and the Awoken set the entire now-radioactive station adrift for safety

Basically we know they're horrifying and deadly aand radioactive and not much more

[rapid girder]

Do you think we’re going to have to fight them eventually?

like with some sort of

“ultimate power?”

because we know they’re unstoppable and all

[trim grotto]

It's quite possible we'll encounter one some day. It isn't clear if they're even paracausal, however, so I wouldn't know about ultimate power. I don't believe a Guardian has ever come into contact with one. The Apheleon are the stalkers of the Awoken.

[rapid girder]

they’re definitely paracasual

surely

[trim grotto]

The Nine aren't.

[rapid girder]

that’s likely because they’re only in control of their own dimension

the aphelions are just

idek

destiny’s going to have to bust them out someday to keep things interesting

[trim grotto]

The Nine are formed from dark matter looping through the gravity of sol. Their spindly limbs are within us all, seeing all, knowing all, manipulating matter and mind.

Despite this, they're not paracausal. Sometimes even the powerful stuff isn't paracausal.

[rapid girder]

they’re probably going to be the main antagonists of destiny 3

[trim grotto]

Well, that isn't in production.

[rapid girder]

they never said it wasn’t going to be made

[trim grotto]

True, but no plans are laid, no production begun, and Bungie always planned, even with D1, to have a single game constantly updated.

[rapid girder]

so what about frontiers and apollo?

what kind of things are they going to expose us to

[trim grotto]

I... wouldn't expect Apheleon to be a primary antagonist for an entire game or expansion. They're... From the little we've seen, they're creatures. Beasts. Dangerous and bloodthirsty, but animals.

This may not remain the case, or it may be elaborated on, but that's how they seem so far.

[trim grotto]

I expect the Nine will be relevant somewhere along the line

[rapid girder]

if they’re bloodthirsty then there’s some potential danger

maybe Neomuna is going to be attacked by an aphelion and we have to step in

or something

what if they’re nearing the end of a thousand year hibernation and they wake up

like beerus

[trim grotto]

Well yeah there's undoubtedly danger

[rapid girder]

dormant danger for now

if they decide to invade the solar system we’re fucked

[trim grotto]

I mean, it seems like they already live here.

[chrome fog]

Like the aphelions or the Neomuni? Because for the latter they only just went under right before the events of Lightfall, and can theoretically come out now/when we fully clear out all the present danger in their city

[rapid girder]

well an aphelion is close to the edge of the solar system

and since neptune is at the end

perhaps they’re going to target them

[trim grotto]

The Apheleon infamously stalk the Reef. That's the asteroid belt.

[chrome fog]

Hmmmmm

@trim grotto, remember that one living cloud of Arc energy that was a part of Calus’ Shadows? Was that an in-game enemy which we got background lore on or is it solely a being we learn about in the lore tabs?

[rapid girder]

will they always stay there is what i’m worried about

[trim grotto]

The Arkborn. We technically saw the species in game as the energy pillars we collected in that one Menagerie encounter. The Shadow, however, "died" in an assassination attempt on Ghaul. We never saw her. The Fulminator.

[chrome fog]

Interesting, but also dang

[trim grotto]

We simply don't know enough to say
Which is concerning in and of itself

[rapid girder]

that place with the purple light?

[chrome fog]

Do the harbingers of the Awoken help out with defending against the Aphelion or has there been no interaction between the two

[trim grotto]

No, that was a Mindscape formed by the Psions during the Leviathan Raid.
The Menagerie encounter had us collecting and then dunking energy.

[trim grotto]

I don't recall any interactions, but we have precious few tabs on the Apheleon.

So I can't say they do or do not

Anywho I have to go

[chrome fog]

Adios 👋

[dim minnow]

Aphelion Hunt dungeon would be cool

[trim grotto]

Now see that, or a raid
I could get behind that as an Apheleon encounter

Those seem more suitable

[rapid girder]

we can’t just “hunt” aphelions

they’re beings of unimaginable power

[trim grotto]

That's what makes a raid or dungeon good
Difficult, endgame, mechanics involved

Unexpected enemies

[rapid girder]

they caused horrible deaths, and many of their victims are fossilized in the dreaming city and you can see their terrified expressions

petra herself said we would never be able to survive it

assumably at our current power

[trim grotto]

I think you're misinterpreting the lines about the statues built in memoriam of the dead Techeuns

They were killed by the Apheleon, mind you, but the statues were built in their memory

[rapid girder]

oh

[trim grotto]

Elsewise the Techeuns would be, uh
5 meters tall

Which would be impressive

[rapid girder]

what are the techeuns exactly

[slim elk]

Tech witches

Awoken trained in both technology and inherent paracausal abilities

[rapid girder]

sick

[trim grotto]

"Tech Witches", colloquially
The Awoken are mildly paracausal, and some learn to manipulate their power and become Techeuns. Magic users! They use their powers to affect the Ascendant Plane and such. Remember Petra's floating knife trick? She flunked out of Techeun training, but picked that up.

Anyway back to work for me

[rapid girder]

lol flunked

so the techeuns are awoken trained to hone their dormant paracasuality

interesting

[slim elk]

Pretty much, now granted there are different measures of their abilities

They aint going to rival Mara

[rapid girder]

but they were still murdered in horror

[slim elk]

Course, hunting beings of "unimaginable power" is basically a Tuesday for our Guardians at this point

[rapid girder]

we would still get put on a t shirt by any aphelion

[slim elk]

Aphelion merchandising us? Well.. thats certainly a twist lol

[rapid girder]

no it means kill

[slim elk]

So.. regular Crucible match? We kill each other all the time

[rapid girder]

ih de yut

[slim elk]

Aphelions had plenty of time to mess with Earth or any of the other races around

Apparently they only seem to hate Awoken

[rapid girder]

so they hate my titan and warlock

[slim elk]

Given Maras track record? Probably a reason for that lol

[dim minnow]

the Aphelion mainly stay in the Reef

[rapid girder]

there’s awoken on earth so we’re fucked if they find out

[dim minnow]

well, there's a difference between Reefborn and Earthborn Awoken

[rapid girder]

he didn’t specify which type of awoken