📚lore-discussion

[slim girder]

Idk what you were expecting. Again they're just sentient ships. They don't need pilots or anything.

Aside from special ones like rhulks or the witnesses from RoN

Even the europa pyramid didn't do much aside from using us to get rid of the cabal "pests" trying to pillage it

[green cobalt]

https://tenor.com/view/disappointment-immeasurable-day-ruined-my-disappointment-is-immeasurable-and-my-day-is-ruined-gif-25049040

[hollow hinge]

humanity in the golden age really wasn't all that tbf

[sick yew]

I mean

Rasputins arsenal was quite oppressive
Just not against the darkness

[hollow hinge]

sure they lived what... 300? 400 years?
but they'd get squashed by any of the forces we face today

[sick yew]

Except Siva

At least against us

I do wonder how well Siva would have worked on the Darkness

[lofty badge]

do enemies like scorn and hive in the dreaming city just get revived to die again each week due to the curse?

[hollow hinge]

hm?

[sick yew]

It kinda annihilated the Iron Lords and shit

[hollow hinge]

I'm saying all the alien races would squash the golden age humanity

[sick yew]

Yeah
Dul Incaru gets shit on every damn week lmfao

[hollow hinge]

our current enemies would squash them

[sick yew]

Im pretty sure golden age humanity would do decent against the Eliksni

Cabal and Hive depends but they wouldnt just fall over like they did in the collapse

Again Rasputin packed quite the punch back in the day

[lofty badge]

lol

[sick yew]

His fatal flaw was just the fact that the literal Witness forces rolled up against him

[green cobalt]

and the hive god of war more recently Rest his soul, fly high, king

[sick yew]

[vivid dew]

I just played the new mission, ||why did the memory of Oryx just disappear and the subjugator spawned in out of nowhere?||

[sick yew]

Bro was tired, needed to take a nap

And the Subjugator prob just teleported in to attempt to kill us

They like to do that

[jagged badge]

That’s why we had to escape

[sick yew]

Indeed

[jagged badge]

Keith appeared and she summoned all those eyes that kill us

[vivid dew]

I understand that the subjugator coming meant we had to leave, but it was all so sudden

[sick yew]

Keith? Keith David?!

[sick yew]

Well theres still gotta be 2 more acts yk

[vivid dew]

Oryx hangs up and immedietly Keith is here to kill me?

[sick yew]

Probably lives in the Dreadnaught ngl

Heard all the noise that the Hive family were making, saw us too and said hell nah no guardians on me ship

[ember storm]

i mean the subjugator is probably looking for the echo

[lofty badge]

i mean Oryx's memory is the echo

and imean someone is making new taken

[ember storm]

it sounded like that was the first time it was even conscious

he said he had just slained akka and made the dreadnaught

[sick yew]

Bros such a gamer he creates new taken passively

[ember storm]

more than likely it's the weird eldritch eyeball thing with the tentacles because yeah

that's a thing separate from the echo

we dont know what thats about

[sick yew]

Praying that we stay buddy buddy with Echoryx

Bro just seems chill now

(Also baller voice)

[ember storm]

he might just go the toland route like "dude why aren't you doing the sword logic you should be doing the sword"

[sick yew]

Imagine we bind with the Echo and bro just always hangs on our shoulder like "sword logic bro, gotta perform that shit, go go sword logic woooo"

Kinda like that one scene from Brooklynn99

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcZqKVCr3pQ&ab_channel=Mehhh

[lofty badge]

do all hive broods hate us equaly?

[sick yew]

you mean hate?

[ember storm]

"Guardian... it's me, The Devil! I'm here to convince you to do sin!"

[sick yew]

Cause if so probably not
Id say any of the broods involved with Oryx or Crota hate us just a bit more considering we beat up their entire leadeship over the years

[ember storm]

"Steal tribute from dregs and small factions! And I don't mean concordat"

[sick yew]

Savathuns brood aka the lucent hive vary, Luzaku and her homies are our friends really

[ember storm]

Savathun actively orders her army to attack us at every turn

[sick yew]

Xivus brood eeeeh theyre just the normal amounts of hive hatred

[ember storm]

she hates our guts

[sick yew]

Those who are directly under Savathuns command yeah
But Luzaku is frien!!!!!

[lofty badge]

yes

[sick yew]

Gotta have more Luzaku

[ember storm]

she says we're her "favorite" guardian but the vitriol of which she said "You." in the FS radio message speaks wonders

[hollow hinge]

I'm sure she means it sarcastically

[atomic sparrow]

So all my lore heads. I've been thinking. No matter what happens in Destinys future, the Winnower always wins right? Like it is the embodiment of Entropy essentially. You can't stop that inevitable heat death.
And if we want to get meta about it (because at times the Winnower talked to us, the player), then when Bungie takes the servers down for the last time, that will be the Winnowers final victory.

[hollow hinge]

because we keep meddling

[ember storm]

i mean it's not just the concept of death

[lofty badge]

do Xivu and Savathun even care about their own broods whom we are both mass murdering?

[ember storm]

the winnower believes and expects something will personally go around the universe removing everything else so it's the last thing standing, long before the universe theoretically explodes naturally

[plain topaz]

What is radiolite? like the stuff we collect in echoes activities

[ember storm]

mutated radiolaria as a result of maya's experiments with it

[plain topaz]

interesting

[river surge]

Sounds like the sword logic

[ember storm]

Sword logic is specifically a religious practice built on a tribute system

Winnower doesn’t care if it’s a whole civilization or one person left

[river surge]

Ngl

The Winnower hype is actually insane

They did an incredible job making the lore of The Winnower even tho we got so little about it

[fresh zephyr]

The Winnower is having so much fun right now

[slow berry]

bro's probably like "oh fuck wait i get it now this is so much cooler than the flower game"

[fresh zephyr]

It sends us the occasional email when it gets bored, but we’ve never ever had this many name drops in a SINGLE SEASON

The literal Artifact this season has a lore tab from the Winnower. We are so cooked

[fiery rover]

the winnower is that family member that doesnt exist until the holidays, and then they show up with the most drama.

[fresh zephyr]

And now Oryx from the days after Akka, which means inevitable Winnower exposition

We are so cooked

[fresh zephyr]

Real

I mean the Winnower/Darkness is all over the Witness’s music throughout the series

And now we know why

A Knife in the Garden from the Final Shape OST could mean many things, but I see the Darkness melody at the end as the Winnower saying “we’re not done yet”

Absolutely way too much overthinking, but the fact it’s on the strings/choir and not the synths tells me that it’s PURE

PURE Darkness, no black fleet

The synths began with the Black Fleet, the Witness is gone so losing the synths would make sense

[eager trout]

When does it play?

[fresh zephyr]

Was the orbit music until Echoes started

[eager trout]

Ah, ok

Weird it only came after the main story

Despite the knife thing

[fresh zephyr]

It’s triumphant, so it makes sense

But the ending is a reminder not to get carried away

The music of Destiny is like reading a lore book, it tells you so much if you listen.

[strong tendon]

What’s the “lore reason” for the witness’ raid boss theme sounding so similar to nezarecs in parts

There’s a lot of nezarec motifs in the final shape ost actually despite him never being there

[eager trout]

Maybe Nezarec's motif wasn't actually his

[river surge]

If Rhulk had acces to the chiesel that Oryx carves to make the tablets of ruin, does that mean Rhulk had acces to contact The Winnower?

[lofty badge]

mabye

[sleek matrix]

Its defo possible

But theres no evidence of that as of now

[sleek matrix]

Alot of the discipline witness music is similar

[fresh zephyr]

That’s not Nezarecs, the Disciples and a lot of the Darkness wielders of the Witness share the same leitmotifs.

Rhulk introduced the definitive motif in Witch Queen, which then became the core of anything Dread related.

The Witness also introduced a melody which is a core part of Nezarec’s Oneirophobia, but it’s also a variant of the Witness’s actual theme if you listen closely enough

All it does is remove a few notes

The majority of Darkness pieces for big figures of the Witness’s faction (bar Nezarec and subjectively Oryx) have their melodies start in D, which cannot be a coincidence. The Witness’s theme is also 10 notes, which being autistic and obsessive, is the span of the first saga😭

Somebody try and stop me muhaha

[eager trout]

The first saga is 10 what? Years?

Also, starting in D is so genius

[sleek matrix]

So many writers came and gone

But they got there in the end

[empty fern]

Lore pic of the day

[merry olive]

so
about the whole two truths two lies things
with the set from the pact
we already know that the lies are osiris being dead and the witness birthing the darkness
but do we know for sure that when savathun says "your destiny lies beyond this system", that she means beyond in terms of physical space

[strong tendon]

What else would it mean

[merry olive]

different planes perhaps?

hell
just spitballing here
perhaps distributary?

i'd imagine without mara's presence the space itself is probably in chaos

[slim elk]

"Humanity was born on Earth, it was never meant to die here"

[merry olive]

wasn't that just a line from arach jalaal tho

[slim elk]

And where, pray tell... did they end up?

[merry olive]

i mean like
i wouldn't put too much stock in the idea of some faction leader having deep insight into the deeper workings of the destiny universe

[slim elk]

Your thinking too metapsychically lol

Im talking literally, where did they end up?

[merry olive]

off-planet but that's all we know

[slim elk]

Out of Sol, "beyond the system"

[merry olive]

yes but i don't really think that some faction of edgy myspace kiddos that turned tail and ran the second shit got bad are a good proof of the destiny of guardians

savathun specifically stated "your destiny" as well, not "humanity's destiny"

[slim elk]

Im just saying goes by the track record they probably stumbled onto some major powerful rock or something lol

Echoes have all made beelines towards the villains of the month

[merry olive]

true true
for all we know tho they got horribly murdered by some roving force of the witness

[slim elk]

Bungies deal is they sorta are running out of antagonists

How many fallen are left exactly?
(Well, before Eramis gets an idea again)

Savathun is one ghost crunch away from being a non issue
Xivus gonna have death by worm eventually unless she stops hiding in a corner

[serene swift]

I mean yirix exists to my knowledge

[merry olive]

i highly doubt they'll turn dead orbit into villains

[slim elk]

Dont need to, they are already harboring traitors

Executor Hideo was on the coup plan as well, and he made it out

[strong tendon]

We already went to different planes before she even said that

[slim elk]

Suffice to say he wont be happy to see Guardians again

[strong tendon]

Ascendant plane, vex network, black garden (I guess?)

[slim elk]

Yeah, so it pretty much boils it down to getting out of Sol

If Bungie was willing we could start having humanity reclaim earth

[strong tendon]

Gonna be hard. House dusk are very much still a thing

[frigid sparrow]

house dusk have been a thing since the start of d2

and they have had less than 0 plot relevance

[slim elk]

Yeah, and we started seeing new Formal Houses start up again

House Light being the obvious

[frigid sparrow]

they are a house without kells, without any potential military force

[slim elk]

"Houseless scavs" as Spider put it

[frigid sparrow]

and literally any chance they'd had at propping themselves up has led to us beating the shit out of them

oh, some random baron wants to take on some vex and grab their shit? he's dead

[strong tendon]

House dusk was trying to claim the echo in echoes.

[frigid sparrow]

yeah, and they failed spectacularly

[slim elk]

(And were prompltly annihilated and forgotten about in the span of... 20 minutes?)

[frigid sparrow]

also, "house dusk" is really just, barely a moniker at this point

[strong tendon]

Tbf they do seem to just use them now whenever they don’t think house salvation is a fit for the story but they wanna use fallen

[frigid sparrow]

most of the fallen we fight outside of europa are house dusk, but they're not formally really under a united house

[slim elk]

Just a catch all term for whatever Fallen crews are left really

[frigid sparrow]

and even then a lot of them went on to just become houseless mercenaries lmao

"hey red legion, so your commanders are kinda fucked"
"yeah, and you guys don't really have any actual house"
Destiny 2: Season of Plunder

[slim elk]

Heck, even House Salvations "Kell" decided to GTFO out of Sol entirely

Now, its pretty sure bet shes going to decide to try another go at humanity eventually.. but probably be a year or so before we get a chance to shoot Eramis in the face again

[frigid sparrow]

and any other fallen groups that tried to do shit aren't even real house dusk like Kell's Scourge

[strong tendon]

I really hate how when d2 began we lost like all variety in enemy type factions as they all just formed under one faction or the other factions were simply made irrelevant. (Red legion, Sol collective, savathuns brood, house dusk)

[frigid sparrow]

house dusk exists solely so bungie didn't have to make stuff for the various houses

[strong tendon]

Glad they’ve attempted to make SOME variety now. But then those new factions just replace the old ones

[frigid sparrow]

and while it does make sense from a lore perspective, that's the corner they wrote themselves into

[slim elk]

Bungie does that a lot

I mean, all this talk about going beyond Sol

[frigid sparrow]

like, yeah, it does make sense that after we decimated all the fallen houses, they'd wanna unite

[slim elk]

We already have a massive FTL capable ship with crew we can use

Our old Ketch from Plunder

[frigid sparrow]

but house dusk pretty much existed to be another faction to fight because story-wise they do absolutely nothing

[strong tendon]

Ik it’s just how the game is structured but I love the idea that each each starts causing a problem after the last one just got resolved lmao

[frigid sparrow]

and now that the kell of kells has been decided they are never going to be anything unless bungie decides they want to dredge up that conflict for no reason

[slim elk]

Nah, they got room with Eramis being an idiot again lol

[strong tendon]

Ah fikruls dead and Eramis has the echo. We can chill now.

“GUARDIAN THE DREADNAUGHT”

[eager trout]

Idk, Eramis having the Echo isn't exactly...comforting.

[slim elk]

Heck, it was already implied she left before Revenant happened to track down her mate

[strong tendon]

No it ain’t because she doesn’t deserve it

[frigid sparrow]

she wants away from humanity and to simply help the eliksni rise again

[slim elk]

They did it in the worst way possible

The whole point of her surrendering and being our prisoner was for collateral to help her House

[strong tendon]

Why does the echo support xenophobia

[slim elk]

To the public, she would look like a backstabbing bitch for escaping while we did everything to help her people

Ungratful much? lol

[eager trout]

Who is in the Echo?

[frigid sparrow]

we don't know

my money's on Chelchis though

[eager trout]

Who?

[strong tendon]

Kell of stone

[frigid sparrow]

personally stood against Oryx during the whirlwind

[slim elk]

We dont know much about Chelchis either, just died vs Oryx in the whirlwind

[strong tendon]

Fallen braveheart

[slim elk]

(Even the gender was only recently revealed even though Chelchis was known since Taken King)

Still, the Echo is very bad at choosing wielders lol

It didnt like Fikrul? Didnt do a thing to help deal with him

[eager trout]

Can Echoes even choose?

[frigid sparrow]

Yes

[slim elk]

Apparently? "Yes"

[eager trout]

Can they even do things on their own?

[strong tendon]

Well yes because the echo of Riis chose Eramis

And the echo of navigation is. Sort of choosing us? It seems? In a way?

[frigid sparrow]

the Echo of Riis initially chose Fikrul because it saw his desires to build a better world for the eliksni, and later it directly chose Eramis

[slim elk]

Its probably the old Oryx respect for the Sword Logic, we did kill him and Savathun

[frigid sparrow]

and while the Echo of Command sorta just crash landed, it seems to take a liking to Maya

[strong tendon]

Does that mean the echo of command willingly chose maya sundaresh?

[slim elk]

It is 3 for 3 of the Echoes beelining straight for the villains of the week lol

[strong tendon]

Even when we won in revenant, the echo went to another villain

Well “villain”

[slim elk]

Eramis is a villain, just the sort that refuses to learn and denies reality

At every turn shes been leading the charge against Humanity

From 6 Fronts to Zero Hour, yet has the gall to blame Humanity for self defense lol

[strong tendon]

Watch us or eris get the echo of navigation and then it just randomly chooses xivu for literally no reason

[eager trout]

Weird that the Echo of Navigation is the only one that manifests a form and talks to us

[slim elk]

Honestly? We would be its wielder.. if we bothered to take up the mantle

[frigid sparrow]

right, that was what I was looking for
from The Garden-Way 6:
"Chelchis began to sing quietly. It was not a tune I recognized, but beautiful in its lilting sweetness... A song for star-sailors headed out into the dark between worlds"

[slim elk]

It said to step forward before Xivu threw a fit and started throwing stuff at us

[strong tendon]

This echo is probably more powerful than the other two. It IS the memory of one of the most powerful beings in the universe

[ember storm]

He literally stuck it onto a staff and held it 24/7, what was it supposed to do

He doesn’t put on his jammies and nightgown and leave the staff unattended when he goes beddybye

[slim elk]

Does raise a question of how that even happened, Oryx was never near the Traveler and thats a pretty long ago "snapshot" of his mind

[ember storm]

They’re specifically the result of the witness itself and it’s experiences with the past, correct?

[eager trout]

Why did he build the Dreadnought?

[frigid sparrow]

correct

[ember storm]

Like the witnessing of that one race getting genocided and then of the whirlwind

Oryx killing a worm god and learning how to take is pretty substantial

[frigid sparrow]

they're memories from the witness or darkness-related entities made manifest into reality with the combination of light and dark

[ember storm]

Witness would probably be involved one way or the other

[strong tendon]

So is that why the memory of oryx is an earlier oryx because that’s when the witness remembers him?

[ember storm]

Either by being the Deep that oryx communed with or the reason he learned to take at all

[ember storm]

Last time the witness possibly interacted, anyway

It’s still up in the air how echoes even really exist

Until that’s cleared up I don’t think we’ll have any answers

[eager trout]

I thought Echoes were sort of like a part of the individual entities that were part of the Witness

[strong tendon]

I just interpreted it as the combination of destroying the witness (a being made of darkness/conscious thought) and the light being freed from its control (physical creation) made the echoes

And that’s all there was to it

It wasn’t intentional it was just. A reaction.

[eager trout]

Well, it could be memories of the Witness given a more tangible form by the Light

[frigid sparrow]

that is the intention yes

[merry olive]

i don't really think guardians or the vanguard in general would vibe with the power to turn people into what are essentially vampire thralls tho

[strong tendon]

That’s what I mean. When we destroyed the witness. They were made of darkness. A tangle of multiple memories and thoughts. And then that was released and the light birthed them into something new

[merry olive]

i mean
stasis and strand are one thing
they may be powers derived from the darkness
but taking in and of itself is not exactly a morally white or even gray ability

[slim elk]

We have been pretty flexible in that lately

We had our own Hive God for a while there

Straight up Sword Logic and all

[eager trout]

Yeah, but it was a means to a goal

And Eris renounced her power after that

[merry olive]

but like
taking is innately taking over the will of other sentient beings tho
also that too

[strong tendon]

I fear taking other guardians in the crucible will be majorly frowned upon

[slim elk]

Its the "power vacuum" problem in my view
Better to take the power and simply... not use it. Rather then risk someone else picking it up

Heck, grabbing the Echo of Command would be a major boon for humanity by removing the Vex as a threat

[eager trout]

If we do get the Echo that will probably give us the new subclass that has been hinted at a lot lately

[frigid sparrow]

uh... the vex are still gonna do vex shit with our without the echo lol

[slim elk]

Thats.. uhh.. the thing
Vex would be doing vex shit under our control lol

[eager trout]

In theory, we could use the Vex to rebuild everything

[frigid sparrow]

Maya sundaresh specifically lived within the vex network and couldn't even fully control other races without more practice with the echo

the idea that we'd somehow fully dominate the vex with it is a pretty large reach

[strong tendon]

She’s likely going to get stronger with it now she’s escaped. And become a way bigger threat

May not even be the vex she commands next. But it probably will be

[slim elk]

And she pulled that,... in 3 months with it? Not bad for something entirely unprecendented

[eager trout]

She wasn't focused on that, though, she was searching for Chioma.

Also, what other race did she try to control?

[frigid sparrow]

cabal

[eager trout]

Oh

[slim elk]

You see some cabal in the final missions

[eager trout]

When?

[frigid sparrow]

third encore run

[slim elk]

And the obvious Saint

[frigid sparrow]

when we raid the labs there's a big cabal and during the boss fight some big cabal spawn

[eager trout]

Saint is an Exo, though. Don't Exos have radiolaria?

[slim elk]

Yep, of a sort

[frigid sparrow]

saint is a weird case because of the whole exo thing and also the ability to play with the "you're not the real saint" stuff due to the circumstances of his revival

[eager trout]

If anything he's a Vex simulation given life

[frigid sparrow]

which again points to Maya's ability to specifically "command" the vex and radiolaria

she could specifically target saint because of his origin

[strong tendon]

But why though? The memory inside the echo has nothing to do with the vex right?

[frigid sparrow]

no, but Maya does

[slim elk]

Yeah, its telling she was able to pull such an en mass conversion in a short time.. and then started to escalate to beings beyond radiolaria

Final cutscene even has her to get control of Guardians proper

[frigid sparrow]

"control" speaking lightly here

[eager trout]

Do we know what it contains?

[slim elk]

Unwillingly forcing some of the most powerful Guardians proper to step into radiolaria?.. Thats a pretty decent stunt

[frigid sparrow]

Te'Qal of the Qugu

[fresh zephyr]

Aren't those nessian schism vex indpendent thinkers now?

[frigid sparrow]

yesn't

[desert iris]

i love how oryx is just giga-chadding xivu arath with his dialogue

[warm acorn]

I need to do this weeks story

Is it good

No spoilers :)

[slim elk]

Given independent thought yeah, still got a literal leash on their necks

[desert iris]

I thought it was pretty neat and cool personally

[slim elk]

Though I blame Bungie not realizing the actual opportunity they had there

[fresh zephyr]

what about the ones without the leashes

[slim elk]

Regular vex

[frigid sparrow]

the ones with precursor frames are the more independent ones, since those are the ones that she transforms

[fresh zephyr]

as in the choral vex

not the compelled

[slim elk]

Ah, probably loyalists that agree with her plans

[frigid sparrow]

choral have individuality

compelled are more like average vex

[fresh zephyr]

well in the lore the vex that have shown and displayed smarter tactics and emotions are described as having rings around their necks

[eager trout]

Who?

[frigid sparrow]

lore figure, military leader of a race that the darkness destroyed

[eager trout]

Btw, how do Precursors and Descendants exist?

[slim elk]

Yeah, the rings are the "leashes" I mentioned

Even Osrisis straight up called them yokes

[frigid sparrow]

"One of those sleek Precursor models was leading a group of normal Vex Goblins. The Goblins all had glowing collars, but the Precursor didn't. They were moving in a regimented military structure. One of the Goblins stepped out of formation, and the lead Precursor glared at it. I've never seen a Vex break formation… didn't even know they could do that.

[blazing wasp]

they're also infighting which is weird for vex

[frigid sparrow]

tl;dr "vex bullshit"

[fresh zephyr]

"I had a Hobgoblin in my sights, but some weird lights around its neck distracted me. The thing must've caught a glint off my optics because it looked right at me. Instead of opening fire, it juked backwards and ran. I've never seen a Vex run before, and honestly, I was so surprised, I missed my shot. I lost track of it by the radiolaria pools near the Well of Flame."

"My fireteam was ambushed by three Minotaurs and a group of Hydras a bit outside of the Well of Echoes. I noticed they had collars of light radiating out from them, and we'd heard to keep an eye out for those things, so we were taking the fight slowly. The Minotaurs were being really defensive, staggering their shields to cover each other. If you've ever gone up against a team of Titans in Crucible, it was like that. Eventually our Hunter went down to some stray Hydra fire, and the moment her Ghost appeared to rez her, the Minotaurs charged in. I swear they were trying to go after her Ghost. Took all we had to fight them back. You told us to report any aberrant behavior, so there you go."

"I was up on a ridge collecting Datalattice for Rahool and I spotted a single Vex Hobgoblin below, just watching me. At first, I thought it was damaged because it had a bunch of bright interference around its neck and it was moving funny, like its suspension was loose. Right as I was about to draw, the Hobgoblin waved its hand at me. I figured it was signaling an ambush and I looked around, but it didn't have any backup. It waved again, and I gave it a little wave back—I didn't see the harm. Well, it got real excited at that and waved with both arms. But then a Titan came speeding past on their Sparrow, hopped off, and blasted it to hell with their Palmyra-B. Probably thought they were doing me a favor."

I think the last one is the better evidence

[slim elk]

Yeah, its an opportunity Bungie didnt take alas

[fresh zephyr]

very unfortunate

[slim elk]

Thats clearly a Vex trying to make peaceful contact with a Guardian

[frigid sparrow]

collecting datallattice for rahool
using Palmyra-B
truly insane guardians on nessus

[slim elk]

Would be a nice twist if we actually helped Maya intially before she tried to go for a power grab

[blazing wasp]

also, palmyra-b is a rocket launcher

it was a single, lone vex hobgoblin

this lunatic did a driveby with a bazooka

[fresh zephyr]

perhaps titans are jealous of the strength of the frames

[frigid sparrow]

average titan

[fresh zephyr]

as evidenced for one titan in the lore of the weapon mechabre

[slim elk]

Anyway, it does seem to be a clear leadership structure

Precursors lead the "regular" compelled Vex and seem to have more leeway

Probably ones that agree with Maya and in return she gives them more operational freedom

[eager trout]

Poor Hobgoblin😭

How come the only one that tries to be friendly gets killed

[fresh zephyr]

and also the goblin who was playing in the trees

[eager trout]

Wait, what?

[fresh zephyr]

"I was passing through that dark wooded area just northeast of the LZ, and I saw something shining in one of the big trees. I got closer and saw a Vex Goblin with something glowing around its neck. It was creeping through the branches and making a little noise—almost like it was laughing, if that makes sense? I threw a Storm Grenade up there and I'm pretty sure I got it, but I couldn't see for sure. I thought I should report it anyway."

[frigid sparrow]

anyways I have to go back to deciphering the sundered doctrine lens map for solo

[tall lake]

Can someone tell me why Xivu can’t talk? Or was it just bug?

[warm acorn]

So what exactly happened

[eager trout]

VA strike, I think

[blazing wasp]

voice actor strike

[slim elk]

Voice actor strike

[fresh zephyr]

why is it happening?

[warm acorn]

Was xivu actually there

[blazing wasp]

Honestly feels like bungie is almost supporting the strike by doing nothing about the lack of voices, which is ironic

you very much feel the lack of voice here

[frigid sparrow]

ai

[warm acorn]

Companies won’t treat them fairly and vow to not use ai voices essentially

[slim elk]

IRL matters that are pretty long and complicated

[warm acorn]

Use their voices with ai

[fresh zephyr]

makes sense

[eager trout]

I mean, not much they can do about it

[fresh zephyr]

sounds like Bungie

[eager trout]

Better to have unvoiced text than limit the script to reused lines

[blazing wasp]

they could try to work around it, or even use AI

they shouldnt

thank god theyre not

but they could have

[eager trout]

Btw, who made Lodestar? I love its cute little beam; baby trace rifle

[blazing wasp]

it looks like awoken tech

[warm acorn]

Idk why they won’t just agree to not use ai?

[fresh zephyr]

how would people react if they started to use an AI voice of Lance Reddick

[frigid sparrow]

this is not a bungie issue, this is an industry issue

[warm acorn]

I saw Lance reddick in the new John wick spin off movie

Idk if he actually filmed that if it’s cgi

[eager trout]

Less effort to hire people or just not have voices at all than to train a whole AI model. Plus, using AI would put them on the side of the companies, and could lead to more VAs leaving.

[trim grotto]

No it doesn't

That's why there's no VA

Otherwise it would be AI

[fresh zephyr]

well im glad they didn't

I judged Bungie too quickly on that

[blazing wasp]

reasonable, but

if you want to point fingers, you can! there is someone easy to point fingers at

activision-blizzard

[warm acorn]

Wait but why was Sloane voiced in one part of that quest?

When she shows up after you place the parts

[frigid sparrow]

some lines were done before

[blazing wasp]

due to their more recent excessive and rampant usage of AI art and voices for their games, notably black ops 6

[warm acorn]

Ah ok

Yo soooooo when we seeing eris again

I want to see eris become the navigator of the dreadnaught

😎

Or I guess we would be her navigator? Idk

[slim elk]

Yeah, it looks like the strike happened right in the middle of when Bungie was making VA lines

But.. the voice actors involved in the strike are willing to work with companies who pledge not to use AI

So I wouldnt say Bungie is blameless here

[frigid sparrow]

mfs will do anything to whine about bungie I swear

[slim elk]

?
Giving context to the matter

[blazing wasp]

It is so easy to point fingers towards like, those that is causing this

[warm acorn]

I play genshin and a lot of characters aren’t voiced either

[frigid sparrow]

I've seen more than one person go "I support what the strikes are for but I wouldn't mind if bungie used ai" and I want to tear them to shreds

[warm acorn]

Inherently contradictory stance lol

[blazing wasp]

ok but expecting Hoyo pledging to not use AI and to treat their workers like basic human beings is like asking a wasp to stop attacking you

[warm acorn]

This is true

[blazing wasp]

also this is diverting a bit away from the lore is it not, i know i kinda caused this on accident but

[warm acorn]

All your fault

[slim elk]

Back on the channel topic

Yeah, its weird Bungie had a catalogue of Compelled Vex not being hostile.. and did nothing with it

[fresh zephyr]

I was hoping on a lore entry on a wyvern being emotional or tactical

[frigid sparrow]

I'm hoping on a taken wyvern

[fresh zephyr]

maybe Bungie is too afraid to decide whether to make wyverns in the lore overpowering or very dangerous in the eyes of guardians or just having guardians deal with them and shrug them off

[fresh zephyr]

same

[slim elk]

Take a look at Hive Guardians, lore implies they are more powerful then humans

We crush them ghosts on the regular

[fresh zephyr]

in the lore?

[slim elk]

No? Talking literal gameplay lol

[eager trout]

They're not using AI, and they're moving the VAs to another studio, one owned by one of the VAs

[slim elk]

If you want lore then Eramis apparently killed a Hive Titan without offing its ghost

[fresh zephyr]

well in gameplay wyverns send us flying on the regular

at least near ledges

[eager trout]

I mean, going off biology alone, they should be stronger. They're made of armor and are taller.

[eager trout]

But it has too many "normal" pieces. Just compare it with Symmetry.

[desert iris]

Sibling meetup before they try to kill you
also oryx voices nether now

Also oryx summons that one subjugator but i didnt notice it

[warm acorn]

yeah the first knife

[strong tendon]

That is the problem in the first place. That’s why they’re on strike. They don’t want their voices copied by ai

Im prolly really late on that but still

[empty fern]

Ye

[hollow hinge]

This would go so fucking hard if Xivu had been there on the left

Still think this was the perfect opportunity for it

[eager trout]

Why is Savathun there but not Xivu?

Who's the one on the left?

[hollow hinge]

Voice of Xivu Arath

just some big knight sent on her behalf

she's a coward and hypcrite

[eager trout]

I mean, she's also vulnerable now

Caution is not cowardice

[hollow hinge]

but had the voice lines been recorded then she would've spoken through this Knight

[hollow hinge]

She's still powerful enough that we couldn't just walk up to her and start dps

and there's countless rituals she can perform

[eager trout]

Why is the Knight on fire?

[hollow hinge]

no, she's a coward

[slim elk]

Yeah, Xivus a coward

[hollow hinge]

isn't that Xivu's thing?

[slim elk]

Soon as her immortality was threatened she ran away and hid in a corner

[eager trout]

Idk

[hollow hinge]

when we see her won't she also be on fire like that

[eager trout]

I haven't played anything with Xivu on it

[slim elk]

Thats the thing lol

Xivus loud but has refused to show her face... ever

[hollow hinge]

yea we've never seen her but I'm sure there's lore tabs describing her appearance

I'm just sick and tired of her being there in the background

it's been long enough

[slim elk]

Would be a fitting end if she gets eaten by her worm for avoiding war

[hollow hinge]

no, that'd be so much worse

"Hey you know this character we've been teasing for many years now?"
"You've fought her minions countless times!"
"Yea she ended up dying alone in a far away corner of the galaxy. You'll never see her"

[slim elk]

About right for things these days lol

[ember storm]

She has a cemented design from inkblots

[junior kernel]

when maya said "You come from a false future" what does it mean? is she just lashing out at us? or is she being literal?

[ember storm]

She’s being literal in the sense that she believes this future never should’ve happened and that humanity deserves a better one, which is what she’s working towards creating

[hollow hinge]

she can't accept that just some aliens arrived and decimated the golden age

[ember storm]

She believes her own words, anyway

[junior kernel]

we just beat the witness, the big boss of the collapse
I think we are doing fine

[ember storm]

Her logic is basically built on her divorce so you shouldn’t really be expecting good reasoning

[junior kernel]

also, is the traveler not awake rn? why does it not start a new golden age given that it doesnt need to run from the witness anymore?

[ember storm]

The traveler is now permanently changed, I doubt it’ll ever recover from having its insides torn open and infected with darkness

[junior kernel]

kinda cool that they linked a whole season to some voice recordings from neomuna tho

[ember storm]

Why would it risk trying to use its power until every ounce of the witness has truly been removed?

[slim elk]

Plus the Winnower may be having some fun in the background now

[hollow hinge]

Traveler =/= Gardener

as far as the Traveler is concerned the big threat rn of the darkness is gone because the Witness is gone

[slim elk]

Im.. not sure what your trying to convey here?

Winnower has had a lot of "name drops" and a direct conversation with us post Final Shape

Thats a lot of hints towards it doing something

[empty fern]

The bigger bad

Friend or foe? Witness cave us stasis, so still foe

[jagged badge]

Why do you say this?

[ember storm]

The Precursors literally named the traveler the gardener so that is a thing

They also directly referenced the events of unveiling in excision

[hollow hinge]

yes but when we're referring to the Gardener and the Winnower

[ember storm]

And the orbit theme for final shape was called “Knife in the Garden”

[empty fern]

Banger theme btw

[ember storm]

I’m a sucker for piano tracks

[empty fern]

Shrimple happy ones

[ember storm]

Then BWAAAM

[slim elk]

Yeah, its.. pretty much outright stated the Traveler=Gardener

[ember storm]

I think the witness would’ve been sick on the keytar

[clever tiger]

So if subjugators are made from one Tormentor then where is the other half for the first subjugator

[dim minnow]

the idea some of us have is that the processes that which certain Dread are made as described in the SD gear lore are not the standard for all Dread of that type

so cutting a Tormentor in half to make two Subjugators isn't the case for every Subjugator

Kieth was made from the Witness' first failed attampt at making the Final Shape within the Pale Heart

Kieth being the nickname some have given to the Resonant Knife (the guy who killed Eris)

[clever tiger]

But it has a name

Keit'Ehr

[rapid girder]

how did Omar get stuck into a machine gun

[dim minnow]

yeah, we call him Kieth because it's easier to remember and spell

[clever tiger]

Oh

[dim minnow]

first off, do you know what happened to him and his fireteam?

[rapid girder]

uhh he got pulverized

[dim minnow]

as in what happened to Eris' failed attempt to kill Crota

[rapid girder]

omar was apart of eris’s ft?

[dim minnow]

yes, he was captured and had his Light painfully torn out of him by a Hive Wizard

may have been the Heart of Crota who did that if I'm remembering correctly

[rapid girder]

damn

[dim minnow]

anyways, as it turns out, she accidentally took out more than his Light

she took his consciousness as well which resulted in him being a bug

[rapid girder]

just a bug huh

how did he become a spider of all things lol

[dim minnow]

not really a Spider, it's some type of flying bug

and I'm not sure what exactly caused the Heart screwing up the torture to lead to that

the Xenophage lore tab describes it from Omar's perspective

[rapid girder]

yeah i saw it

so Xenophage is what he meant by “revenge in this life, not in the next?”

[dim minnow]

probably

[trim grotto]

Pretty much. He didn't die, after all, just got... Bugified.

It's fuelled by his rage

[dim minnow]

according to Eris, it seems to be a result of Crota's experiments

[trim grotto]

Honestly, could just be incompetence.

[dim minnow]

"I am sorry I couldn't save you, friend. In life, you may have been unable to escape their grasp. But you will have your vengeance yet."

Eris has kept in her possession one of Omar's greatest assets: his beloved Machine Gun. Eris empowers it with the spirit of Omar, and grants it to you.```

[rapid girder]

lol imagine getting disintegrated by a violent machine gun being fueled by an angry bug

[dim minnow]

I suppose the whole ritual of the Heart torturing Omar was really what Crota considered "fucking around"

[trim grotto]

I played Gambit during the Xeno meta
I do not need to remember it

[dim minnow]

and us getting Xenophage was what the Hive consider "finding out"

[eager trout]

What's Bomb Logic?

[dim minnow]

bascially, cooperation

[eager trout]

Then why is it bomb?

[dim minnow]

every person/group working together is a component to a bomb

[eager trout]

Ok, makes sense

[dim minnow]

all components are needed for things to happen

while sword is singular, simple

[eager trout]

All cool until bow logic comes up

[trim grotto]

Complexity. A sword is simple, easy to comprehend. A bomb is complex, full of moving parts. Looking at an individual piece does not show a bomb, and removing a piece can make it inoperable.

Complexity Vs simplicity.

[eager trout]

Still makes sense

[tall lake]

Just curious do we know where drifter is rn?

[ember storm]

Probably just out

Randomly wandering around without any actual meaningful goals

Weekly loretab mentions how drifter completely avoided any mourning for Eris altogether, he’s just running from his feelings

[eager trout]

Drifting

[ember storm]

You think it’s weird that Cayde has a plaque and none of the other dead Hunter vanguards do

Or even the speaker

[eager trout]

Maybe it's because he was very beloved

What are Calus' Shadows?

[dim minnow]

Calus had an elite group of agents that he hand picked from each specific race he encountered

for example, he had a Shadow known as the Fulminator, an Arkborn

she was essentially a being of pure living Arc energy

originally, their main purpose was to help him pursue his vengeance against the conspirators that staged the infamous coup that had him ousted from the Cabal Empire

however, at some point prior to the Red War, he sent a group of his best Shadows to infiltrate Ghaul's ship to take him out

in the end all of them ended up getting killed and failing their mission

at that point, Calus realized his mistake so he got rid of the rest of his remaining Shadows so he could start over with them

their new purpose had been to aid him in being the Herald to the end of all things

he intended to make us (the Guardian who slain Ghaul) into his Shadow of Earth

in his shitty in-universe fanfiction, the Chronicon, he envisioned that Eris Morn would be his Shadow of the Hive

and I think he had Mithrax be his Shadow of the Eliksni and Peta be his Shadow of the Awoken

but that isn't really important because none of this ever even happened

[tall lake]

What is sea of screams or where is it?

[dim minnow]

Sea of Screams is just another term for the Ascendant Plane

[tall lake]

Sounds cool

Do you have any theory what will happen next? With Eris etc

[dim minnow]

no not really

maybe she manages to reach out to Drifter and convinces him to stop trying to get himself killed

[tall lake]

Do you think she will meet winnower there? (Sea of screams)

[dim minnow]

not sure

[ember storm]

Room kinda looked like an anchor thing

Unless we actually learn what the Dire stuff is all about idk

Act is over so

[tall lake]

Well that seasonal artefact talks about winnower so might be interesting

[ember storm]

I love how the lore states that the guardian had an auditory hallucination when looking at it and didn’t do anything in response

[dim minnow]

it does seem like Oryx is trying to groom us into taking up his mantle

[ember storm]

Truly my houseplant iq hero

[dim minnow]

I get the feeling it could lead to us actually meeting the Winnower

[dim minnow]

well Truth to Power exists so it wouldn't be the first time

[ember storm]

Ghost actually reported that and submitted the records of it though

[tall lake]

Maybe he knows we can defeat winnower with his powers?

[ember storm]

This time we literally did nothing

[ember storm]

why would oryx basically want to kill his religion

[dim minnow]

1. Why would Oryx want us to kill the Winnower
2. How can we even feasibly do that

[ember storm]

the winnower is literally the embodiment of his entire reason to exist

[dim minnow]

and the Winnower is some crazy eldtritch type of thing

[slim elk]

Actually would be the ultimate expression of the sword logic

The Final Shape being able to eclipse the Winnower

[ember storm]

Winnower might literally be Cthulu which I’m honestly ok with

Cthulu is chill

[dim minnow]

the Winnower ain't that type of opp

[tall lake]

What is he exactly

[dim minnow]

the Winnower is a concept

[tall lake]

Like lore if you can provide

[dim minnow]

the lore book, Unveiling, provides a lot of good insight

the Winnower is basically the concept of selfishness, simplicity, survival of the fittest, and that sort of stuff

consider it the opposite of what the Traveler stands for

[ember storm]

Oryx would never kill that which categorized him as “my man”

No way

[slim elk]

Remember that killing his sisters is how he expressed love

[tall lake]

Well I thought it was The Witness

[dim minnow]

ehhh

[ember storm]

as someone with siblings I can attest that is different

[dim minnow]

the Witness technically aligns with the Winnower

[ember storm]

You just generally feel the need to kill them

[dim minnow]

but in a broad sort of way

[slim elk]

He actually does it

[ember storm]

The witness personally described itself as the first knife wielded by the winnower

[dim minnow]

Oryx is probably the one who is most aligned with the Winnower

[ember storm]

Yes because it is different

Hive show love in that manner because they are not sparing their family any effort to kill each other

[dim minnow]

as a triplet, I can attest that this is not different

[ember storm]

They respect each other by never pulling any punches

The difference is that winnower is just a spectator

It’s bad manners

[dim minnow]

keep in mind that Hive morality is very different from our morality

[slim elk]

Anyway we technically already met the Winnower. Somehow it got our email address

[plain topaz]

Why do the harpies go upside down when their idle.

[dim minnow]

I mean, Taken Centurions just float midair while idle

[plain topaz]

They what now? Ive never seen that happen.

[eager trout]

Centurions?

[dim minnow]

yeah

[plain topaz]

Maybe harpies are just going dormant until they need to fight.

Like when someone zones out

[eager trout]

Now that I think about it, since Vex that were converted by the Echo of Command exhibit different behaviors, that brings up the question of whether the Vex hive mind essentially mind controls each colony of radiolaria, rather than them all simply agreeing on following the Vex cause.

[plain topaz]

Maybe instead of mind control, the vex minds are more like leaders that give orders, idk

[dim minnow]

vex are not a Hive Mind actually

they're simply many minds who operate on the same page so well that they give off the illusion of one

[plain topaz]

Basically a group of robots all following the same pattern and rules

[dim minnow]

each individual unit of radiolaria more like

[slim girder]

Imagine a robot factory that can manufacture itself and all the robots just want the same thing but not because a higher being puts that in their head

[plain topaz]

Oh yeah right

I forgot about that

[eager trout]

Then why do they act differently when they gain individuality?

[slim girder]

Do you want world domination?
I want world domination.
Lets work together to get world domination

[slim girder]

The echo changes how they are made

In the choir of one tab you can see how this is done

[plain topaz]

I feel like the vex have the most interesting and mysterious lore.

[slim girder]

Maya is directly doing something to each vex to give them individuality and she also gives them choice

Like what their name is and stuff

Using the echo she is adding more layers to each vex turning a collective into a community

[plain topaz]

That makes fighting the choral vex feel different from fighting the regular vex

[slim girder]

That's why back in echoes we met a minotaur calling itself a guardian slayer.
And one vex even shouted an explicit word at us as we killed it.

[plain topaz]

I hope we see more of this vex in the future.

[dim minnow]

which one yelled at us?

[plain topaz]

It was a minotaur boss in breach executable

Dont remember the name

[slim girder]

I believe it was that guardian slayer one. Failsafe said something about it when you finish the mission

[eager trout]

When did what happen?

[dim minnow]

blud thought he was Qodron

[eager trout]

If I only I could play the episode

[slim girder]

Start of echoes

[slim girder]

You can

[eager trout]

Huh

I don't remember

[slim girder]

It was one of the first bosses we faced in the seasonal activity breach executable

[copper totem]

I wonder if frontiers will ever see us trying to take back earth completely

like Im pretty sure the hive still have most of it right?

[slim girder]

No earth is pretty much retaken

We have allies with the fallen and have driven the hive back to the moon which is where a lot of them still reside

There aren't any crazy threats to deal with on earth aside from this episode with the dreadnaughts eversion anchors.

[copper totem]

damn fair enough

so basically in the background its just major reconstruction?

I was also gonna ask but is the house of light like becoming huge or is still a relativly small thing?

cause ik the house of dusk are still around

[slim girder]

Pretty much yeah. The last city is doing very well currently and people/eliksni are much safer now. So now it's all about the threats outside of earth that we can focus on.

[slim girder]

No they are growing. Eliksni now have a proper home in the city

[dim minnow]

since Mithrax is now the actual Kell of Kells, there will probably be much more Eliksni joining us

[slim girder]

As for house dusk that's just getting smaller because they can choose to come to house light or even go with eramis to rebuild.
There's not much reason to continue being an outlaw

Why survive in the wild when there's a place you can be accepted into and live safely and in a healthy way

The eliksni story has pretty much been tied up now and I don't see any crazy fallen threats in the future unless there's still something that can be done with the scorn.

[slim elk]

Well
By Eramis track record she'll probably try to kill humanity again after a while

She never learns

[copper totem]

is he really kell of kells?

like idk ik he was pronounced that but like I feel like the way he was given that title was so weak

[slim girder]

Mithrax is kell of kells.
Eramis is the bearer of the echo of Riis

[copper totem]

i hope to the traveler we kill her one day

[dim minnow]

to be fair, at this point the title is really just superficial

[warm acorn]

^

@dim minnow ||do you know what the thing in the sundered doctrine vault is?||

[slim girder]

The traveler isn't going to come down and shine upon the chosen kell like the prophecy says

[slim girder]

It's a chisel

[warm acorn]

Ohhh

[dim minnow]

the pursuit of it only caused problems for everyone involved, so Mithrax just being given the title by Eramis stops it from being a huge problem

[warm acorn]

Ok and what are the tablets of ruin?

[dim minnow]

not just any Chisel

[warm acorn]

Ye he enscribed the tablets of ruin with them yeah?

[slim girder]

Things oryx made and they have the secret to taking

[dim minnow]

the Chisel Oryx used to inscribe the secrets of the deep into Akka's flesh to create the Tablets of Ruin

[warm acorn]

Oh he inscribed the tablets into worm flesh?

That’s wonderful

[dim minnow]

they also allowed Oryx to push his Throne World into the Dreadnaught

[warm acorn]

So basically super secret darkness tech

[slim girder]

Yes. Remember his dreadnaught is the dead worm akkas corpse

[warm acorn]

Written down by oryx

[dim minnow]

and he even used them as stepping stones so he could meet the Winnower

[warm acorn]

Yes

And he learned how to take from akka?

Oryx is just op

[slim elk]

He also wants us to take his mantle

[warm acorn]

Wait wut

Because we killed him?

[slim elk]

Easiest and most effective way to get the Echo

[dim minnow]

yes

[slim elk]

Yes

[warm acorn]

Yo we could become the taken king

Because he believes in sword logic

That is his faith

[slim girder]

Yes but we refused it

[warm acorn]

So we kill him we get his powers

Y tho

Seems like a win

[slim girder]

Because we don't want it. It's not our logic

[warm acorn]

Is that why the siblings tried to kill us?

[slim elk]

Back in the Taken King anything associated with darkness was taboo

We are a lot more flexible now

[warm acorn]

Yes

So let’s become the taken king gg

[slim elk]

That is the way the story seems to be going

[warm acorn]

I want the taken subclass

Or resonance

[slim elk]

Someone's gotta sit in that throne.

[warm acorn]

Probably xivu

Or savathun

Orrrrrr eris👀

[slim elk]

Nah. Us

You said the reason why

[warm acorn]

I mean couldn’t we take the mantle of the taken king

And then just

Not make any taken

[slim elk]

Yep

Back in Taken King the obvious reason was fear of the power corrupting us

Now that we handle Stasis...

[warm acorn]

And strand

And prismatic

[slim girder]

Not really.

[warm acorn]

@dim minnow do you know anything about the barrow dyad lore

And what was going on in that room

[dim minnow]

the lore on the SMG is for the boss we faced at the end of the mission

some Knight of Xivu Arath who challenged Oryx and got Taken as a result

[warm acorn]

And just got trapped in there 💀

[dim minnow]

however, he believed that allowing himself to be Taken would be cheating so he resisted it

him being in that room must be a result of him resisting the Taking

even he lost track of time

[warm acorn]

Interesting

So like what’s that gun doin in there

[dim minnow]

we aren't entirely sure, the thing seems to be alive though

[warm acorn]

And also why did Rhulk have oryx’s chisel

[dim minnow]

he's the British museum

[warm acorn]

Rhulk really is lmao

I was gonna say

[dim minnow]

he like stealing shit and putting it in his Pyramid

[warm acorn]

He just have random stuff

😭

That’s like super important

He’s a klepto gg

[slim girder]

"Welcome to the British museum, please refrain from asking how we got everything over here"

[warm acorn]

💀

Rhulk wild

The lore team at bungie goes crazy

[dim minnow]

I was hoping we wuld get some more post-mortem dialogue from Rhulk in the dungeon

[broken zephyr]

They did my boy dirty

[dim minnow]

you know, I still want to know how Savathun can't get into Rhulk's Pyramid even after we kill him

[warm acorn]

Magic barriers :)

[dim minnow]

I suppose it's because the Pyramid itself is still active

and it's operating on the last orders it got from Rhulk which was to specifically let non-Hive Guardians (like us) in

[warm acorn]

Yes

[dim minnow]

and the Dread are likely able to get in there because well

they're Dread

if anyone is going to be permitted to enter a Pyramid, it would be them

though we can see that even they need to do some work to get access to certain areas

I wonder about the Hive though

they aren't Savathun's brood

of course her brood would likely be automatically barred from entry like her

[copper totem]

they better go crazy on frontiers fr

[warm acorn]

I’m so excited if heresy is any example of what’s to come

[slim girder]

Heresy is supposed to be the prologue according to bungie and at the end the guardians role will be a lot more clear

[warm acorn]

Then I’m hype

[next bobcat]

I've been reading some lore books through ishtar collective, and i have some questions

The Cambrian Explosion lore tab piques my interest, whose PoV is it of? i can't tell
why did the witness need the pale heart / veil traveler link to enact the final shape?
were the traveler and veil created by the gardener and winnower to do their will? i'm not sure of their origin.
In the [Calcified Fragments: Insight] lore tab, it says oryx shapes himself into a weapon via the books of sorrow. is that touch of malice?

[sick yew]

The witness needs the veil and traveler for their respective powers
Travler for the light and veil for the darkness
With those two combined and control over them you're essentially god, being able to make anything reality

[dim minnow]

The Unveiling lore book us supposedly from the Winnower until the final entry which is a letter from Eris Morn
The Witness needs full control over the Light and Dark to reshape reality. It already got a hold over the Darkness from the Veil and establishing the link between it and the Traveler allowed it to access the Pale Heart which would then allow it to have a hold over the Light
The Traveler is the Gardener (and it seems like the Veil is a missing part of her)
Kind of, Oryx believes that if we create the Touch of Malice then we would take up his mantle and become him which relates to what he wants us to do in Heresy

[sick yew]

The Taken Heir

[next bobcat]

what does he want us to do??

[sick yew]

Uphold the logic of the sword

[next bobcat]

mmm yeah ok

[sick yew]

Basically just do what he used to do really

[next bobcat]

ok ok, so if the gardener is the traveler, then why doesn't the winnower take a shape?

i guess it just uses the first knife to do stuff

[dim minnow]

the Winnower is described as formless

the Gardener technically was as well, but the events of Unveiling are likely what allow it to take a shape

[next bobcat]

because light is physical and dark is more mental/forces stuff?

[next bobcat]

yeah like when it became a rule

[dim minnow]

well, the Veil is part of the Gardener and the Veil is a Darkness relic

it is possible that the Winnower is not Darkness while the Gardener is both Light and Dark

[sick yew]

Any theory why the traveler removed this part from itself?

[next bobcat]

you could think of TFS as the winnower forming the gardener and then stabbing it with the first knife

the triangular portal almost reminds me of one of those tri-daggers

[dim minnow]

it's more likely that the Winnower was the one who removed it

[copper totem]

yk something i find kinda funny is that at the end of vow Ikora says "The witness and its followers are coming" and it was just the witness himself in the end.

we were really expecting more diciples huh?

[dim minnow]

well the Witness did pull up in Lightfall with Calus

so there was at least one

also Nezarec

granted Nezarec wasn't really alive again until after

[next bobcat]

Uun 2nd disciple alternate history when

[copper totem]

Uun?

tbf calus was in the system before the witness

[slim girder]

Yes

[next bobcat]

wait what

[copper totem]

like he was in sol trying to reach out to him

[slim girder]

But he was being a maniac

[copper totem]

but still

just 2 people?

[sick yew]

Also the Dread which the they specifically engineered from various other races

[next bobcat]

what is the timeline

[slim girder]

Those 2 are still very powerful. Rhulk is no joke if he were to go all out

[copper totem]

the dread were made when the witness was in the traveler

[next bobcat]

i've been reading the ishtar collective timeline

[sick yew]

Technically not no
The witness firt arrived during the collapse after which a lot of time passed till the events of d2 where Calus rolled up

[copper totem]

yeah true but im referring to the D2 story after witch queen

like calus then witness

[next bobcat]

so when was calus born

[copper totem]

so still like all those fucking pyramids and it just had a head of a guy and other species that were held hostige

"followers" my ass lmao

[sick yew]

Long long before even the golden age of humanity

[copper totem]

before caiatl thats for sure

[next bobcat]

🤯

[trim grotto]

Oh he's been around for centuries

[next bobcat]

did he witness the fall of torobatl?

[slim girder]

No

[next bobcat]

ok so he was after the Krill

which means he was after rhulk and Uun

[trim grotto]

No, the Midnight Coup was enacted well before that. Dominus Ghaul took his place as... well, Dominus, which was just Emperor but with a fancy name. Then he died, and there was no official leader at the time of the Fall. Caiatl took over during the Fall.

[slim girder]

Who is this Uun you're talking about?

[trim grotto]

Oh that was billions of years ago
The Cabal were warring with the Hive at the time of the Fall

Like there's a massive gap between these events

[next bobcat]

so which were first

[trim grotto]

The Fall of Torobatl was during D2's lifetime

[next bobcat]

creation wise

[trim grotto]

Like it's a recent event

[next bobcat]

oh really i thought that was ages ago

[trim grotto]

No. It happened after Ghaul's death.

[next bobcat]

its in a lore book idk how to link to them or insert it

[slim girder]

When you say Uun i think the slug god from hollow knight lol

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/resonant-fury-suit-hunter
In here

But it isn't relevant by a long shot

[next bobcat]

yeah lol i was confused at first

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-shape-of-unn-gif-17335698712798946803

[next bobcat]

everyone loves uun

[slim girder]

I'm glad we're all people of culture who know the peak that is hollow knight

[next bobcat]

i really like this lore/

Uun 2nd disciple would've been awesome but ig rhulk's character was heavily shaped by the ahslids

[slim girder]

I'm still confused. This is the first time i've heard of this character. I knew there was another disciple but that was their name?

[trim grotto]

No.

You'll want to read the set

[next bobcat]

also, why is the Noesis lore tab not on Ishtar? i saw the Byf video so i'm familiar but i can't find a transcription of it. is that because it's collectors edition and so its technically not allowed to be written down?

[dim minnow]

you should be able to find transcriptions online

like this server

[trim grotto]

The... Noesis were mentioned in Entelechy, which was the Collector's Edition. Ishtar's bot can't pull it from the API, and Baxter doesn't put physical edition lore onto the site to stay on the safe side - despite many others doing it without repercussion.

One moment

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UrWkA-28s02Hxtogq0XhoOo-tDNCM_O4IRYahiEddVk/edit?usp=sharing

[next bobcat]

ah epic

[slim girder]

Surprised no one has uploaded like images or anything of lore from collectors editions.

[dim minnow]

this channel has just about all of them in the pins

[trim grotto]

For Ishtar? That was an intentional choice. For the rest, the popular transcriptions do have them, usually.

[next bobcat]

yeah this channel pins are peak

surely codename frontiers gives us an ontological exotic

[slim girder]

Just for the main source of compiled lore. Like just a good quality photo of like a physical code on a collectors edition item i think would be cool

Like say the physical cryptolith form shadowkeeps CE

[next bobcat]

the tree of silver wings:

• What is it?
• Is it the black garden stump/plateau?
• Does it have much significance?

also black garden stuff like is it the real garden, what is it idk

the winnower/gardener stuff is really interesting to me

[trim grotto]

A paracausal entity of neither Light nor Dark but can absorb and take on properties of either
That is implied to have been one. Eris said the parent of the Tree of Silver Wings that grew in Arrivals was from the Black Garden, presumably the Stump.
Yes? But we can barely tell why.

Is it the real Garden? Well, Unveiling was a metaphor. But the Black Garden may have taken on its shape, long in its past. We can't say for sure.

[slim girder]

The black garden is something that is as old as time itself and we possibly might never actaully know everything. It's like the stone age of destiny lore

[sick yew]

The Tree of Silver Wings is neither light nor dark? What?

I thought its a byproduct of the travelers terraforming

[dim minnow]

well the original one existed alongside the Gardener and Winnower

[trim grotto]

Both the tree in Essence and Arrivals grew from both Light and Dark together. Never alone.

It's something unto itself.

In truth, they're still quite mysterious.

[sick yew]

So the Arrivals tree only came to be after the pyramids and their darkness arrived?

[dim minnow]

Osiris was the one who planted it

[trim grotto]

Well, Osiris planted it. But that's when it grew.

[sick yew]

Huh

So I guess the one in Ron only got so big because there was both massive light and massive dark energy around?

[dim minnow]

Rasputin directed Osiris someplace where he obtained the seed for it

[trim grotto]

Probably! But we're still guessing, to be honest.

[dim minnow]

then Mara told Vance to tell Osiris to plant it

hmmmm

but Trials and Tribulations happens before Osiris got the seed in the first place

odd

[next bobcat]

what if the Gardener was Light & Dark - energy, and the winnower was the forces of the universe acting upon the energy? you can't have one without the other, they're both fundamental principles of existence - energy can cause chaos, but forces have to act upon it to regulate it and enforce rules. is the final shape a reality without energy? perhaps they're space and time.

[sick yew]

But similar looking stuctures showed up in the Threshhold or Final shape opening cutscene

[trim grotto]

The Tree(s) is a bigger mystery than the Traveler and Veil at this point

[sick yew]

Lmao

[next bobcat]

There’s multiple?

[sick yew]

Yeah

One on io

One in Ron aka the Witnesses pyramid after the Traveler blasted it with the bigass lightbeam in the Lightfall opening

[trim grotto]

Io. Season of Arrivals. That's the most famous one.

[sick yew]

Technically speaking Salvations Edge is build around a Tree of Silver Wings tho it is hard to even recognize it anymore

[dim minnow]

there's also a facisimile of one in the Pale Heart

the area based on the Cradle

[sick yew]

The one thats got the hive sisters in it yeah

[sick yew]

Best space to see that one is probably in the Verity encounter which takes place entirely in a little pocket of the tree

[dim minnow]

?

[sick yew]

The tree of silver wings in the pale heart

In the Io area

[dim minnow]

yeah I know

[sick yew]

Its got the three hive sisters in it

Like woven into the crown

[dim minnow]

man this destination is so detailed

[dim minnow]

oh they're on the tree

[sick yew]

I didnt even notice they were in there until I ran around the pale heart to take ome screenshots

[next bobcat]

Ok so the Ron one is

[sick yew]

Its a pretty large one yeah

[next bobcat]

True

So all those multicoloured leaf things are pale leaves or something

[dim minnow]

In the Garden grows a tree of silver wings. The leaves are ruin, the bark disaster. Of the seeds we do not speak.

[next bobcat]

Close enough

Did you see my speculation on the winnower/gardener?

[dim minnow]

I kinda figured that the Gardener is both Light and Dark which the Winnower is something else

what that something else is though

[next bobcat]

Yeah

Who knows

[next bobcat]

So if the winnower is the embodiment of order, why did it create the defect mentioned in the Cambrian Explosion lore tab? Was it to enact the sword logic?

[dim minnow]

it's really meant to show how unavoidable its logic is

we were created by it essentially

[next bobcat]

Created the witness’s killer

As well as all the witness’s disciplrs

Did it intend for that?

[dim minnow]

more like all life in general

the idea is that inevitable all life dies out

no matter how long it takes

[next bobcat]

Like how the winnower says to the gardener how changing the rules will only delay the inevitable final shape

[sick yew]

Yeah

At the end of the day the Vex literally exist aswell

[next bobcat]

Ultimate sword logic

Also what’s bomb logic

[sick yew]

Vex arent really sword logic tbf

[dim minnow]

cooperation

[dim minnow]

they did learn about it at least

[sick yew]

Quria our beloved

[dim minnow]

so they might be guided by it to an extent

[next bobcat]

So to help all exist?

[dim minnow]

more like when we all work together, ground can break

the Witness' defeat is probably the best example here

[sick yew]

Id say its more an unintentional similarity
the Vex dont really "defeat" anyone they simple change it into themselves

[next bobcat]

Sword is the logic of one, bomb is the logic of many

[dim minnow]

it was the result of many hands moving as one

[sick yew]

This in itself probably goes against the sword logic at least by the Hives way of thinking

[next bobcat]

What’s the lore tab where these 2 hive warriors repeatedly kill each other to offer tribute?

[dim minnow]

might be a season of the Risen lore tab

[sick yew]

Its a bit sad Destiny is a live service game but if they ever were to give us a definitive epilogue I do wonder whether the Vex wouldnt just win at the end of the day

Realistically speaking they would

Its impossible to eradicate them properly and any blow we deal against them no matter how big, sooner or later they'd rebuild

[slim girder]

Not entirely. Back in D1 during the paradox mission in the vault of glass we did see the "end" of the vex

So there are timelines that do involve the vex being eradicated.

[warm acorn]

Lore :)

Someone tell me an interesting lore fact

[sick yew]

Back in the Golden Age Elsie build a device with a light artifact that similar to an EMP can disable all Vex systems on an entire forge star larger than earth

[warm acorn]

:o

[sick yew]

Other lore funfacts uuuuh
I exist as a character in the lore

[next bobcat]

What

[warm acorn]

Wait huh

[next bobcat]

[warm acorn]

Explain also what’s ur dmt pve count

[sick yew]

Salvager Salvo loretab

[sick yew]

Roughly 17,5k or so these days

[warm acorn]

That’s bussin

That’s a lot of dmt in pve

What’s the god roll

[warm acorn]

Where can I read it

Or give a synopsis of the tab

[sick yew]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/salvagers-salvo?highlight=salvagers salvo

[warm acorn]

Ty ty

[sick yew]

What the god roll is idk
I use one with outlaw cause its one of my favorite perks

[next bobcat]

Valex Maier

[sick yew]

I am indeed working for the Future War Cult

[sick yew]

Victor Alexander Maier is the name

[next bobcat]

Damn

It’s you

[sick yew]

Ong its me fr fr

Sad that I work for the bad guys

Oh well

[warm acorn]

Dang bro

You’re a FWC spy

L

[sick yew]

[warm acorn]

Better than not being in the lore like us plebeians

[sick yew]

fr

[warm acorn]

More lore fun facts

[sick yew]

the first Hunter Vanguard lost her life in a poker game with an Ahamkara

[next bobcat]

I’m in lost signal lore

[warm acorn]

I-

[sick yew]

During the great hunt she I guess wished to face off in a poker match which is what happened
She bet her life and lost

[warm acorn]

Did they make the ultimate wager?

[sick yew]

Yep

[warm acorn]

Oof

[next bobcat]

Hunters amirite

[warm acorn]

That sounds like something a hunter vanguard would do tho ngl

Yeah that’s par for the course

[sick yew]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/tyranny-of-heaven?highlight=heaven

[warm acorn]

I love ahamkara and dreaming city lore

I know little about it but ahamkara are so cool

[sick yew]

Ahamkara are strange ones for sure

[warm acorn]

I

When I saw what they looked like in the star crossed mission cutscene

I was really expecting them to be more massive

[sick yew]

One of their infinite forms

[warm acorn]

Idk they looked like dogs

Ohhh

Didn’t know they had infinite forms

That’s

Cool

[sick yew]

They can shapeshift into anything they want

[warm acorn]

Cause like when you fight Riven in last wish it’s like

:o