📚lore-discussion

[jagged badge]

The Witness…who needed the Traveler’s power to enact its plans

See how it’s not as black and white?

[uneven mulch]

the traveller created the light or just provided us with it?

[jagged badge]

The Traveler is where Light comes from

It has used Light to transform worlds and uplift species and give us the Ghosts so that we could become Lightbearers

[uneven mulch]

no other sources of light?

[jagged badge]

No

[uneven mulch]

but the witness isnt the source of darkness tho?

it just uses it

[jagged badge]

Correct

The Witness’ people came to know the Darkness through the Veil

And then they used it to transform themselves into the Witness

[uneven mulch]

do we know the source of darkness yet?

[uneven mulch]

also this was before collaps or after?

[jagged badge]

The Veil

[jagged badge]

This was eons before the Earth even existed

[uneven mulch]

oh

the veil is the darkness version of the traveller?

[jagged badge]

The Witness’ people were the first (or earliest known) species to ever discover and be blessed by the Traveler

[eager trout]

Also the pettiest

[strong tendon]

Essentially yes. It is believed (or maybe confirmed by now?) that the traveller and the veil were once one being

Is there an inside of the veil? Like the pale heart is inside the traveller?

[ember storm]

Pale heart is the result of the veil (darkness being mental) connecting to the traveler (light being physical)

It wouldn’t go both ways, it’s specifically the utilization of the veil to materialize what’s embedded in the mind

[eager trout]

If Onslaught is about preparing to face the Witness' forces, why doesn't it make us fight those that actually fight for the Witness?

[trim grotto]

What do you mean? We fought, got example, Shadow Legion.

[eager trout]

Onslaught

The thing where we fight waves of enemies

The simulation(?) run by Shaxx

[jagged badge]

‘Twasn’t a simulation

The Witness’ forces actually attacked the City/other key areas

[trim grotto]

I know what the activity is

But we did fight enemies who fought for the Witness
Such as, as I said, Shadow Legion

So: what do you mean?

[eager trout]

...Onslaught has the Shadow Legion?

[eager trout]

I'm asking why Onslaught doesn't make us fight those who fight for the Witness, such as Taken, and Shadow Legion

[trim grotto]

We did
That was sort of the entire point

[eager trout]

There's Eliksni that fight for the Witness?

And Hive, even after everything that happen?

[trim grotto]

You fight them in the Final Shape campaign itself

House Salvation

[eager trout]

Oh

[eager trout]

I'm only talking about Onslaught, though. I don't have Final Shape.

[trim grotto]

Onslaught was set directly before Final Shape

A few weeks

[ember storm]

You fight Xivu’s hive, house salvation, and shadow legion

All three have been tied to the witness before ItL

[dim minnow]

Shadow Legion were not in the original Onslaught

[eager trout]

There's another Onslaught?

[dim minnow]

Onslaught Salvation

from Revenant

it has Revenant Scorn and Shadow Legion Cabal

[eager trout]

Isn't that one to fight the new Scorn?

That happened after Final Shape

[dim minnow]

yes

and you fight Shadow Legion in that version

[plain topaz]

How do guardians come back after wiping in a darkness zone? Because i thought darkness zones impaired the light to make reviving difficult id not impossible. Do the ghosts just move away and then reviver or what?

[dim minnow]

lore wise, if we die in Darkness zones, we're fucked

so canonically, we don't

[plain topaz]

Crazy

[eager trout]

I'm talking about the original

[dim minnow]

whcih we only fight Hive and Fallen in

[eager trout]

Exactly, hence why I'm asking why don't also fight Taken and Shadow Legion there

Do Guardians have the same "soul" as their past life or are they a new "soul" in the same (reconstructed) body?

[dim minnow]

Bungie likely didn't have time/resources to properly balance additional enemy factions into Onslaught

or maybe they just wanted to keep thing simple by leaving it at 2

[dim minnow]

that's a difficult question

and it heavily determines on your own personal interpretation

[eager trout]

Considering Light only affects the physical, it technically wouldn't be the same soul. However, if we were to see the "soul" as the consciousness that is held by the electric impulses of our nervous system, then...

Who knows

[eager trout]

*when you realized Destiny went from being about fighting pirates and soldiers to fighting eldritch horrors

[dim minnow]

ever since D1 we were fighting ostrich horrors

[eager trout]

Yeah, but it starts with just pirates, soldiers, and robots

[trim grotto]

Probably to make Revenant Onslaught unique.

Not that it explains the lack of Taken, but nevertheless

[trim grotto]

I mean I guess but even the D1 vanilla campaign had an alternate dimension and Eldrich gross orb

[eager trout]

The Taken got taken away😔

[trim grotto]

The Stolen

[eager trout]

What orb?

[trim grotto]

Black Heart

[eager trout]

The Missing

[eager trout]

Oh

[dim minnow]

the confiscated

[eager trout]

Look at this friendly little guy

He says hi

Btw, is there anything in Uranus or its moons?

[dim minnow]

there is a station near one of its moons

where Ana Bray fought an Exo who likely holds the record for most resets

[eager trout]

I feel like the only reason they haven't added Uranus or anything related to it to the game is because of the amount of jokes it would cause

[dim minnow]

and it ends with her Ghost overcharging her with Light and then she fires two Golden Gun shots that travel for light years

which is the only time in lore something like this happens

[eager trout]

Do we know if they ever hit something?

[dim minnow]

like it shows that our Ghosts can give us a temporary overcharge that makes us that powerful and it never comes up again

[dim minnow]

well she shot said Exo twice

as for what else they hit, probably nothing

[eager trout]

Imagine it hit a random alien civilization and they thought it was a declaration of war

[coarse aurora]

So what’s the difference between taken and those dire enemies like the war beasts that come out of the acolytes I think

[slim girder]

These are new types of taken that are being directed by the new dread enemy for the episode.

[coarse aurora]

So they like summon them or make them taken too

[slim girder]

Yes.

These taken also seem to be a lot more out of control as well. Like you can see that there's blight all over the dreadnaught

But they do still follow orders.

[sick yew]

Yo holy shit she said the thing!!!!!!!

[sick yew]

Some kind of Exo stranger?

[blazing wasp]

https://tenor.com/view/marvel-fan4stic-fantastic-four-the-thing-say-that-again-gif-9345984830195785978

[dim minnow]

Nimbus: "Look at what the Witness did, it made the Light fall"

[next bobcat]

Eris: “You see that keep? Looks… Shadowy.”

[dim minnow]

Eris: "Guardian, the Hive are conjuring vile machinations with Nightmare energy. To stop them, you must delve into the Pit of Heresy"

[sick yew]

We must venture to the terraformed Pyramid and face off against the very root of the nightmares that plague the citizens of Neomuna

[frigid sparrow]

"Guardian, a Scourge of the Past is at the city's doorstep, you have to take it out before it's too late..."

[sick yew]

So thats how much storage a brain needs

I do wonder how much an exabyte is

[slim girder]

It's estimated that 2 exabytes are currently in use today.

[sick yew]

Wait thats an accurate number?

[slim girder]

Yes. In the current day the whole worlds data traffic makes up around that.

[frigid sparrow]

Do you think Clovis gave his AI a couple extra exabytes to accurately portray his big brain

[sick yew]

@trim grotto homie im actually confused atp who on earth the scribbles are from

None of it is making sense

???

[slim girder]

The witness.
It manipulated Clovis.

That veiled statue he found which he called clarity

[sick yew]

All of them?

Cause the early ones make no fucking sense then
The scribbles appeared earlier than even Clovis discovering clarity

The Witness wouldnt say that

Half of them seem to be from Clovis himself

[slim girder]

Not that but the other things yes.
As for that one in particular yes it would probably be a scribble he made himself

[sick yew]

Okay so they arent all from the same person

Despite showing up in the same color and shit

[slim girder]

Correct

[sick yew]

Thats kinda dumb

[slim girder]

Think about it. Clovis has a voice in his head telling him what to do. Like for example building a vex portal.

[sick yew]

He gets visions from clarity yes

[frigid sparrow]

No way

[sick yew]

[slim girder]

And those writings are those visions. Imagine someone possessed and writing what they heard in their diary

Clovis is writing what clarity is telling him

[trim grotto]

yeah it's good isn't it
it was Clovis

[sick yew]

When hes detailing the actual visions/dreams he gets from clarity theyre in the normal font and color tho

[sick yew]

What

Brother im loosing the plot

[trim grotto]

how far in are you now

[sick yew]

Done

[trim grotto]

Towards the end, the writing was "Maya"

The Maya Sundaresh who was never actually there

[sick yew]

Yeah thats what it sorta sounded like too

[trim grotto]

Just a Vex memetic within his bone, within his brain - one of the simulations that broke under Vex influence, and was implanted into Clovis

It's why she wasn't on his records

[sick yew]

So thats what she did when she walked in on him having an organ transplant

Except she didnt walk in?

[trim grotto]

Grandfather,

I will write this in your language, in hopes you will understand.

The Vex are a threat to your lineage. Not just to the Brays or BrayTech, but to the existence of any human in any possible future. I tracked down Maya Sundaresh—the real Maya, not the Vex parasite in your bone marrow.```

[sick yew]

She never existed on Europa?

mhm

[trim grotto]

Correct

[sick yew]

Who exactly did Elsie fuck up then?

Or was that whole section of Clovis waking up on the operating table a dream after all

Or did she just beat the shit out of the non active operating frames

[trim grotto]

I could only see because of the light… from a single red eye.```
```CLARITY? I asked the darkness. I had no breath to speak, but I could still transmit with my sensorium. IS THAT YOU?

“No,” said the voice behind the red eye. “It’s me.”

Sundaresh.```
```VEX, I screamed at her. YOU’RE A VEX. YOU’RE NOT REAL AND YOU CAN’T HURT ME.

“Can’t I?” She grasped my spinal cord. A frame shadowed her motions, lifting the cord like a snake.```
```“You aren’t real. You can’t hurt me.”

“Oh, Clovis.” One of the surgical frames extended a monofilament cutter, two inches of invisible wire, and reached into my nerves. Something sounded like scissors snipping. “I’m in these frames. I’m in your systems. I’m in your very bones, old man. Now take me to Clarity Control. Take me to the garden’s seed. Take me. Take me. Take me. Take me. Take me. Take me. Take me. Take me—”```

Some excerpts

"Maya" was in the Frames

[sick yew]

Ah

[trim grotto]

The surgical equipment and all

[sick yew]

So Elsie came in and beat the shit out of those

I see

[sick yew]

Do we know when this happened?

When did Clovis get "infected"

[trim grotto]

Her conduct was extremely unprofessional.```
tee hee

[sick yew]

No I mean when did the Vex shit get into his bones and brain

[trim grotto]

oh that wasn't an answer it's just funny

[sick yew]

Because he already was seeing Maya when he first stepped through the Vex portal

[sick yew]

It sheds a new funny light on those passages agreed

Clovis was just schizo as fuck

[trim grotto]

If it wasn't from the very first Vex encounter, it was probably due to the portal itself. Such a densely populated Vex space, closest thing to a "home world" as we have.

[sick yew]

So he was right and some shit possibly got through the proxy link

Rough

[trim grotto]

yarp

[sick yew]

I see

Alright and now onto the question I already had yesterday
Why the fuck did Clarity "help" him

Actually wait

Wait wait wait

[trim grotto]

[sick yew]

The dream he had of the god wave

[dim minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/suicide-gif-23888293

[sick yew]

Was that really the idea?

[dim minnow]

"unethical"

[sick yew]

@trim grotto was that the plan of the witness?
For Clovis to succeed and become king of humanity basically and then recruit him essentially?

[trim grotto]

It's possible it was grooming to become a Disciple.

Or just fucking over the garden, as it were.

Either way, the Witness provided Clovis a path, and he walked it willingly, despite the repeated warnings in the form of dreams from the Traveler - which he wildly misinterpreted.

In many ways, the Witness did shockingly little - it merely sent him to Clarity Control.

[strong tendon]

Because Clovis was already an asshole

[sick yew]

Wait wait all those dreams were from the Traveler after all?

[dim minnow]

yeah, she pretty much told Clovis that there was no way they were from "Clarity"

[trim grotto]

She blinked sadly at me. She had been trying. I hadn’t listened.

“You never said a thing to me,” I snarled. “Not once. You never told me I was doing wrong. At least Clarity sends me dreams—the exobody and the eel. At least it shows me what I can become.”

“You think Clarity sent those dreams? Why would it speak to you, when you are dead and furthest from its influence?”```

[dim minnow]

that third dream sequence with Clovis and the Traveler is one of the hardest excerpts in the lore

[trim grotto]

“The best voices,” she said, with infinite grief and unending hope, “never let themselves be heard at all. This lesson is worth teaching again and again. The choice is never mine. It is always yours.”
This quote says so much about the Traveler. So much.

[dim minnow]

passages like these are why benevolent Traveler is so much better than "secretly evil" Traveler

[fluid peak]

I think we should pin this to the foreheads of people who say the traveller is in the wrong

It's basically the best paragraph that summarises her philosophy

[sick yew]

Do we even know that one for a fact?
Did the Witness actually send him to Europa?
Cause the way im looking at all of this im starting to feel like shit is mostly just one bigass coincidence
The Vex were actually the ones that told him to build the portal and him using Radiolaria that has been exposed to Clarity as a fix for one of his Exo problems was just him making do with what he had available

[trim grotto]

The Anomaly sent him to Europa. It's an artifact of Darkness.

Then the Traveler just kept saying "Bro, stop." Clovis did the rest himself.

[dim minnow]

the K1 Anomaly

to be specific

oh btw Alex, I cooked in media chat

[sick yew]

But the idea for the Vex portal
Could have equally been the Vex themselves influencing him instead of the Witness

[sick yew]

oh god

Ayo where do I get that blanket

[trim grotto]

The Vex portal wasn't the Witness's influence. Clovis came up with that idea. Sure, the Vex may have been involved, but it wasn't the Witness.

[dim minnow]

not sure, but do you reckon it's pin worthy?

[sick yew]

So the Witness just told him to check out their cool statue basically

[trim grotto]

Yep

And he did everything else on his lonesome

[sick yew]

"Yo Clovis I got this sick ass statue thats formed with how I used to look before we all, yk merged into a super being. Wanna see it? Yeah just go over to Europa lemmeknow what you think"

Ok and joking aside why would the Witness do that?

[trim grotto]

Because of the potential to... well, do what happened. Fuck over the Traveler's garden. The Witness had its long laid plans, its sadistic background manipulations to make civilisations destroy themselves. Think of the prophesy of the Kell of Kells, and how much war it caused amongst the Fallen.

[sick yew]

The Kell of Kells was a lie the Witness came up with?

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/star-eater-scales
That's the implication.

Keep in mind the opening paragraph is written identically to others showing Pyramid gravitational influence.

[sick yew]

Did Eliksni bro really dream up his own brother

But damn that is pretty interesting

[trim grotto]

In a manner of speaking. More like it was dreamt for him.

[sick yew]

No I mean like was he actually alone on the ship all this time and dreamed up his brother who then told him the prophecy might have been a bigass lie someone else placed into their heads

[trim grotto]

He was alone. Raksil here would be representing the Witness, basically a vision. Like Lisbon-13 in the Black Garden was visited, so too, it seems, was Raskil.

[sick yew]

Huh

Interesting

In other questions where do I continue with the Clovis side of the story
Since the missing pages end with his "death" I assume the next stuff is about the Exo Clovis who'd become banshee and the vex invasion

Is there a specific lorebook about that or do I gotta build the story out of various loretabs

[raw hazel]

mael stinky

https://tenor.com/view/dab-anime-gif-10617637

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/the-cat-in-the-hat-ill-get-you-mike-myers-bloody-accident-annoyed-gif-21119686

[raw hazel]

dhaiahsjd

carry on

[trim grotto]

[raw hazel]

(my wayward sooooon)

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-bray-lab-records-confidential
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-legacys-lament
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-lament

Probably this would be the way to go

get out of here embeds

rah

[sick yew]

Ive read Braytech Confidentials many times over

Also these all happen before the end of the missing pages book

Get your timeline right homie

[sick yew]

@trim grotto Who exactly named the Vex units

Are we still using the same names the Golden Age researchers gave them?

[trim grotto]

There isn't really an answer to that, exactly. Just various hypothesis.

[trim grotto]

Well there's not much more from Clovis's end
He dies, becomes Big Head, and we meet him in BL and again in Seraph

[sick yew]

The exo memory lorebook is the one I was looking for

[trim grotto]

Legacy's Lament?

[sick yew]

Ah

[sick yew]

Yep

Btw what exactly sets Elsie apart from the other exo?

Why did she never struggle with DER

[trim grotto]

https://youtu.be/BtN9y4syIRE?si=ARcF7oB_0rBuYoKL

[sick yew]

I know shes got a different frame

But that cant be the key can it?

[trim grotto]

The Banshee frame was faster and stronger than average. Perhaps hers was too.

[sick yew]

But wouldnt faster and stronger be counteractive?

The body has to be as close as possible to the biological one

Thats why they couldnt just slap a 3rd arm onto the frame either

[trim grotto]

It has to function similar to the biological one, but being strong is just being strong.

Banshee's fine, after all.

His memory and reset issues weren't caused by DER.

[sick yew]

Surely if you make it too insane the brain still gets fucked up and shit

[trim grotto]

Perhaps, but Exo were designed to be the next step of Humanity. They're meant to be better, despite the flaws.
It's a moot point regardless. Banshee was the apex. Elsie's model would be lesser than his, even if better than average.

[sick yew]

But id be kinda insane if part of DER's persistence was down to Clovis giving everyone the same exo model

[trim grotto]

It certainly wouldn't have helped.

That said, our own character customisation shows that different models did make it out. Mia-9, being a Europan Exo, may have been one of the early models before full scale, system wide production came to be.

[sick yew]

mhm

They even simulate eardrums and shit damn

Waaait thats where NTTE is from?

It was one of Clovis' personal guns?

No wonder its so toxic in pvp

Like a WHAT?!

[fiery rover]

😮 they said it!

[sick yew]

AND AGAIN!?

@trim grotto do we know how close exactly the Clovis Ai is to the real person that lived?

It was a lesser thorough brainscan that lead to the Clovis AI correct?

And the big one that was lethal lead to the Clovis-1

[sick yew]

Also huh there was a 4th crew member on the Ares One that died on the way there? Never knew

[trim grotto]

Not precisely. It seems to basically be Clovis, but without the capability for personal growth. As monstrous as Clovis was, he did actually have a change of heart on his deathbed.

[trim grotto]

Yeeaah... Don't ask Ana about that one

[sick yew]

Ana?

Why Ana

[trim grotto]

Do you want the summary or the direct tabs

[sick yew]

Im reading the direct tabs of the Ares mission rn

The armor piece ones

[trim grotto]

Yeah that'd be them

[sick yew]

Also where did you get that from

He sounded like same old Clovis when Elsie woke him up for the final time

[trim grotto]

A source I constantly forget how to find

One moment

[sick yew]

Lmao

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-lament
The Lament itself
The obvious source and yet I constantly forget it

[sick yew]

Oh yeah that little part at the end

[sick yew]

...Mihaylova killed Evie

Right? Thats what im starting to see here

[trim grotto]

Not quite so directly.
R killed Evie.

Wanna guess what R's framework became?

[sick yew]

Waaaaaait

Naaaaah

But I thought that which became Rasputin was on the moon?

Wasnt that part of the revelation we had in the Seraph Bunker where we'd get Felwinters Lie?

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/quest-the-tyrant-the-lie
Yes.
Ana Bray: This looks like the casing of an old safety AI. But marked with Rasputin's symbol. These transcripts suggest his original code was for… a sort of emergency response system from pre-Golden Age space stations. Checking oxygen levels, fuel, that kind of thing. Clovis Bray took a safety AI and turned it into an interplanetary defense system. With sentience.

[sick yew]

Exactly that yeah

Never knew that was for the Ares One

I thought bro just checked some kind of random ass Moon station

[trim grotto]

It's not stated explicitly. But it's heavily implied. Rasputin, Mihaylova - both Russian. Safety AI used for Ares One, safety AI for space stations.

[sick yew]

Interesting

[trim grotto]

Big Red went through a few evolutions - but he's been around for a long, long time.

[sick yew]

Imagine if they build Skynet out of one of a car navigation device from the 90s

[sick yew]

Also whats up with the mention of the Traveler "blinking in and out of observable space"

When it swapped between planets?

Like id just disappear for a few weeks and suddenly return

[trim grotto]

Yep!

Just, like

[sick yew]

Somewher else

[trim grotto]

It'd just vanish

Reappear a while later at a new planet

[sick yew]

Why?

[trim grotto]

[sick yew]

Potential setup they never continued huh

Odd

Also its still so funny to me that they gave the Ares Crew guns

Like thats so Humanity

[trim grotto]

It's great isn't it

Purpose made for Mars's atmosphere rifles to shoot at the... moon sized ball? Like

What would you do

[lofty badge]

he did?

was he like "Damn..sorry for being such a shit grandfather"

[trim grotto]

keep reading and find out

[sick yew]

Hell yeah
When in doubt shoot it bro

[sick yew]

Sorta yeah

Also huh the Vex showed up on Mercury right after it was terraformed?

But they didnt turn it into the dead world that it is today until post collapse when Saint went where with some colonists

[lofty badge]

ah okay

[trim grotto]

They had no rush
And were probably interested in studying the weird ape creatures

[sick yew]

I guess

On the topic of Vex
How much radiolaria to run doom?

[slim girder]

Probably a drop

The vex are microscopic so a drop probably contains thousands of vex

[sick yew]

@trim grotto
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-vex-5

Is this what would later become the groundwork for the Future War Cult?

This weird Vex machine some kind of prediction engine?

[slim girder]

Yes

"The device" as it's called by the FWC

[trim grotto]

The Device? Yeah, that's the idea.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-future-war-cult?highlight="the device"

Use this as a comparison

Same record keeping for example

[sick yew]

Interesting that this started as early as the Golden Age I always assumed the cult formed after

[slim girder]

Only exos were capable of using it through a method that I think was called billboarding.
Humans were driven insane

[trim grotto]

The cult would have, but... Yeah.

[trim grotto]

Billboarding was a precursor to DER

Outlined in the Logbook of Clovis Bray

[slim girder]

Ahhh ok then

[sick yew]

Thats the shit they fixed with clarity and radiolaria

Bla bla brain needs to constantly be fixing itself otherwise you die

@trim grotto do we have any idea how exactly it works that Elsie used to jump between timelines?
Did she physically travel from Timeline A to B or did only her memories do so

[lofty badge]

can guardians even perma kill vex Or do they just make so many new vex that they are more or less endless like the hive?

[slim girder]

Yes. The vex are infinite

Kill 1 and a thousand more are made

[lofty badge]

F

so best one can do is be paracusel and just keep stopping their efforts?

like that time we killed a vex mind that could see light?

[slim girder]

Correct. Stops them from simulating you and so you'll have advantage over them.

Only guardian they have managed to stop was saint 14 but only with a cage specifically made for his light signature

[slow berry]

consider that the vex made a single individual mind over centuries to kill one (1) guy and then the guy ended up making it out anyway yeah

[lofty badge]

got cha

[slim elk]

The only other effective counter measure for the Vex we've seen is the Echo of Command

Which sorta enslaves them to the users will

[sick yew]

Back in the Golden Age Elsie-1 somehow build a device that (in combination with the light from the traveler) would crash every vex system on the entire forge star behind the portal

[jagged badge]

Well, not exactly

Saint killed the Mind but perished to the Vex afterwards

And a different Saint gets saved by us and makes it out so

[sick yew]

Wait a moment
This is an entry of from season of Dawn

"this false-sister"

Have there really been hints that Savathun pulled some shit during the collapse as early as that?

[slim elk]

Yep

There's an entry somewhere where it's heavily implied Savathun guided people to the Last City

[sick yew]

Huh

[slim elk]

Far as we can tell
Witness and Nezarec actually managed to corner the Traveler in Sol

Savathun managed to backstab old Nezzie, frame like it he was going to betray the Witness and hid the Veil away

[sick yew]

Pretty sure we still dont know whether thats the case or if the Traveler knew it could stay

I personally doubt it was cornered

[slim elk]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zUDQoJ_8jOQ&pp=ygUgRGVzdGlueSAyIHNhdmF0aHVuIHdvcm0gZGlhbG9ndWU%3D
6:10

[sick yew]

Nothing at 6:10 and after indicates the Traveler was cornered in Sol

[jagged badge]

The Witness claims the Traveler had nowhere else to run but like

We’ve seen that the Traveler is perfectly capable of leaving

[sick yew]

I think the Witness saying "nowhere else to run" is more in reference that it makes no sense for the Traveler to go anymore
Its invested too much time into us to restart the cycle of getting tf out over and over

[lofty badge]

yeah

[sick yew]

There it fucking is again
Sterile Neutrinos
This time during the collapse

[lofty badge]

• if it left it, it would leave thousands of angry guardians to become very powerful servants ot the witness

[slim elk]

Not sure why your arguing schematics here?

Traveler stayed to fight, Witness curbstomped it and Savathun saved it

[lofty badge]

ye

[slim elk]

That's cornering it

[sick yew]

I think it makes the traveler seem more nobel
It recontextualizes the fact that it stayed by choice and not because it couldnt go anywhere else

[slim elk]

I didn't say anything about that

All I said was the Witness managed to corner the Traveler, ergo Savathuns intervention

The Travelers motives for sticking around were irevelant

[slow berry]

Speaking of Rasputin my beloved

Do we ever find out what are aurora knives

I want one of those

[jagged badge]

Were we?

[sick yew]

We were earlier

So close enough

[slow berry]

It's all rasputin if you think about it enough

[sick yew]

I really wonder who came up with the idea to give Rasputin the ability to just freeze the entirity of Hellas Basin as a defense mechanism

[slim elk]

Warmind was primarily made by some support studio, so was probably there idea

[slow berry]

Do we really wonder or do we know it was Clovis Bray being like "fucking hell its hot as fuck in this stuffy ass hot ass hellas basin im in"

[sick yew]

Clovis didnbt give two fucks about Rasputin as long as he could use him to blow up whoever he didnt like in that particlar moment

[sick yew]

Also if anything id be the other way around cause bro spend so long on Europa

[slow berry]

I just feel like "make sure it can artic freeze a planet" is totally something clovis would do

Maybe he got so used to europa he wanted to make sure he had the same climate everywhere he wanted idk

[sick yew]

Thats a good one actually

If I need to be in this freezing cold then everyone will have to

Rasputin, activate the system wide freeze beam

[slim elk]

The man was literally being driven insane by vex memes at the time..

[sick yew]

I wonder what the Vex find funny

[slow berry]

Isnt there that old nessus adventure where the vex are like, really polite

and they're having urgent messages about stuff being slightly wrong places

Where Ghost disguises itself as part of the vex network and they keep sending vex to help him all concerned about him

They're probably really chill

[sick yew]

Yeah

Vex are funny

They also like golden age rock

[slow berry]

By the way if I can share my pet theory

If the Episodes are aiming to build up the next saga, and we believe that Frontiers is about exploring beyond the solar system

I believe the reason we got a Failsafe episode is bc they're putting her entire ship ass into a new ship and she's going to be our navigator

[sick yew]

we put Failsafe in charge of the Dreadnaught

[slow berry]

Not just a comms link but actually a new whole ass ship

[sick yew]

Trust trust

[slow berry]

Holy fuck imagine if the echo of navigation goes to her

Because she survived the collapse

Or whatever the fuck

[sick yew]

Lmfao

Anyway back to actual lore

[slim elk]

There's two options I figure for going beyond Sol.

Hijacking the Dreadnought, or taking shortcuts through the Ascendant Plane

Like what we pulled to get to the Dreadnought from Earth

[lofty badge]

or use Cabal ships?

unless Cabal FTL is really damn slow

[slim girder]

That was more the anchors. As for the ship itself i don't think there's any way to get it moving.
It's just a big derelict that is decaying

[sick yew]

Damn that many Awoken left the Distributary?

[slim girder]

Plus I don't think any other civilisation would feel comfortable having the taken kings flagship roaming around and not knowing a friendly force was flying it

[sick yew]

I thought it was like idk a few hundred thousand max

But several million?

Where the fuck are they all

[slim girder]

On earth.
I believe that there were the reef awoken and then the earth awoken.

[sick yew]

Well yeah but I doubt several million are on earth

[slim girder]

Not all obviously. But some stayed in the reef. This was before the taken war though

[slim elk]

Writers have no sense of scale

It's like how we should have several outposts and bases scattered throughout the system (Crucible maps ahoy) but barely are ever seen

[sick yew]

A third of "several million" went to earth

[slim elk]

Or on Earth itself where we have multiple Titan orders dedicated to protect refugees en route to the City.. but no defined routes

[slow berry]

How many people are there on the Last City anyway

[sick yew]

Couple of million?

Like quite a few for sure

[slim girder]

It's in the millions I'm sure of that but no concrete number

[sick yew]

^

[slim girder]

And that's if we mean everyone. Like we have humans, awoken, exos and now eliksni.
The city is actually a very diverse place. Think the old factions were the only who seemed to cause any kind of issues within the city.
Most recently Lakshmi constantly making everyone scared of the eliksni when they first arrived

[slim elk]

Said factions were the city's government until they tried to pull a coup..

[sick yew]

Im pretty sure there are not that many Exo living in the last city
There werent that many exo to begin with

[slim girder]

The concordat yes

[slim elk]

The irony now is its heavily implied what they wanted is now the current state of affairs in the City

Guardians having every say in government

[sick yew]

I mean the Vanguard do be the Vanguard

[slim elk]

And.. that's it.

Consensus is dismantled, Speakers dead for years

Zavalas now in charge

[sick yew]

[slim girder]

The foundries are also a huge part of the city. As they make the weapons and even fleets.

[slim elk]

New Monarchy got their dictator lol

[sick yew]

To be fair you cant exactly "crown a speaker"

They simply arise

[slim girder]

A speaker is selected by the traveler like a guardian.
Difference being they don't have to be dead first

[sick yew]

And the Traveler dont wanna anymore I guess

To be fair its kinda busy being

uh

Whatever it is

Ayo Ishtar who the fuck calls Osiris the Greatest Guardian who ever lived

Sure hes strong and all but his Husband is like right there

[slim girder]

It has a hole in it.

[slow berry]

So do I, but I don't get paid if I don't get to work.

[slim girder]

This was absolutely written by brother vance

[slim elk]

And got lobotomized by the Witness

So Traveler is going to be healing for a while

[sick yew]

Ong

Propaganda

[slim girder]

Years according to micah

[sick yew]

Then tell Micah to step up their praying game

I want at least 5 more guardian creeds per hour than what shes currently saying

[slim elk]

Don't worry
The Winnower is open to chatting with us

[sick yew]

I do wonder who that was

[sick yew]

Guess thats why

[fresh zephyr]

Me

[sick yew]

Wrong

[fresh zephyr]

I am the canonical Guardian, the true ending where The Witness wins

[sick yew]

How could we save Saint when we only came to be much much later

Smh Faithe

[fresh zephyr]

The Corridors of Time

https://tenor.com/view/erm-aksuali-veli-vel-nerd-nerd-emoji-gif-11908435316515627035

During Season on Dawn, I canonically saved Saint twice

[sick yew]

Never happened

[fresh zephyr]

:((

[sick yew]

Canonically we both save him never and infinite times cause we create a paradox

[slim elk]

We did inspire the man to keep fighting

[fresh zephyr]

The Witness saved us all technically

It gave us Cinema

[sick yew]

??

Uhuh

[slim elk]

Come out of nowhere, help him vs the House of Rain.

Then show the future city

[sick yew]

Where did the gun come from
We pick it up from his grave but we also gave it to him and its what helps us through the corridors of time

[slim elk]

Paradox
If you understand it your mind explodes

[sick yew]

I understand it cause im very smart

[slim elk]

To solve the Paradox we must go back in time

Just drop next to Elsies "restart" and start rampaging across the system

[sick yew]

I just realized the Ishtar timeline completely ignores the Cabal's arrival in our system

Or rather it doesnt put a timeframe on it

Is there really no lore on when they showed up?

[slim elk]

They just seemed to keep on Mars and didn't bother anyone

Deeper lore indicates it's a "reassigned to Antarctica" situation apparently as a lot of the Mars Scout Legions liked Calus

[sick yew]

Yeah but the Ishtar timeline goes from pre golden age Cabal lore to Rasputin starting some fights with the Cabal on Mars midway through the city age

[jagged badge]

[sick yew]

And a previous entry however details Uldren Sovs little expedition into the black garden which directly mentions the Cabal aswell

So im a bit confused just when exactly they showed up

Ah yes so much lore on the various Hunter Vanguards

[fresh zephyr]

Eris gets it

[spiral pond]

Guys can someone help me clear things up?

[sick yew]

What do you want to know

[spiral pond]

I don't know anything about the Destiny lore, I'm an extremely casual player and I've even just took like a 2-3 year break from D2

[sick yew]

Happens

[spiral pond]

so the Witness is currently alive and still the biggest antagonist right

[sleek matrix]

Nah

[sick yew]

No and sorta

[spiral pond]

How

[sleek matrix]

Witness itself is dead

[sick yew]

We killed the Witness at the very end of the Final Shape campaign

[spiral pond]

okay

[slim elk]

12 player rampage vs the Witness

[sick yew]

And its so far the biggest antagonist we had as the Winnower is largely unknown

[sleek matrix]

But when it died the light and dark mixed because of us shooting a beams of light at witness

From his death the echoes were formed

[sick yew]

I mean the Echoes aint the Witness

[spiral pond]

Okay so he is dead but his residuals/consequences are still a threat?

or something like that

[sick yew]

They are indeed dead
But the Dread and other forces previously under their command are still at large

[spiral pond]

It is very confusing to me because

and I mean you have to admit it is

[sick yew]

Whats confusing

The Witness created an army

That army didnt just fall over with the Witnesses death

[sleek matrix]

The dread yearn for a leader

[sick yew]

I mean they got a leader

[sleek matrix]

Witness defeat created a big power vacuum

[sick yew]

Eeeeeh

Theres the Psions

[spiral pond]

Hold on...

[sick yew]

And a few other high ranking members

[spiral pond]

the final shape was released june last year?

[jagged badge]

Mhm

[spiral pond]

my entire reality just shattered

I genuinly thought it just released a few weeks ago

What was that release then? 😭

AS I'M SAYING I was on a complete hiatus for over 2 years I wasnt following anything about D2

[sick yew]

That must have been Episode 3

[spiral pond]

man..

Now I'm less confused... but still somewhat am

flabbargasted even

[sick yew]

Any other pressing questions?

[spiral pond]

What is the current "big bad thing" right now then?

[sick yew]

A Dread

Its called the Resonant Knife I think and well it kinda sorta killed Eris Morn

May she rest in peace her throne world

[spiral pond]

Yeah she's totally ||dead wink wink||

I have played that part so now I know

[sick yew]

No need for spoiler tags its ingame already

[spiral pond]

Okay but still

I spoiler everything

[abstract pagoda]

Keit'Ehr i think her name is

[sick yew]

Ah

Didnt know that and sure as hell wont remember

[spiral pond]

So Heresy is the current story point

we're in?

[abstract pagoda]

Yup

[sick yew]

Yeah act 1

[spiral pond]

Like act 1

of chapter 3

of TFS

or do i have it wrong

[sick yew]

Thats I guess how you could put it yeah

[spiral pond]

Okay good

thanks

I have like 5000 more D2 questions but that is for another day

[sick yew]

[abstract pagoda]

[sick yew]

Wait
Riven got taken all the way back in Taken King??

I thought that shit wouldnt happen until Forsaken lmao

[jagged badge]

Oryx Took her yeah

[ember storm]

Well she was just completely locked in the awoken basement until forsaken

But there’s a reason Uldren went a little loopy talking about Mara’s voice speaking to him which got Petra to lock him up in the first place (it was riven)

[slow berry]

i mean she had to be taken before, yknow, we killed the taken king

i dont think anyone's been taking since until now

[ember storm]

Yeah drifter mentions it in the nether, without someone around like oryx or the witness, there shouldn’t be any more taken being made, but there are anyway

[eager trout]

How does Drifter make his Taken?

[ember storm]

He doesn’t, he either just lures them out from the ascendant plane or gets the nine to spit out fake ones from the haul

[young wraith]

Did drifter just commit die?

[jagged badge]

No?

[ember storm]

Ah the wonder of being in class for the next 6 hours

[sleek matrix]

Sounded like it

Or he just left and didn't want us trying find him

[jagged badge]

It didn’t

He’s just leaving, like he always planned to before

It was his bond with Eris that changed him, that made him stick around. But this trauma around her death has just made him revert

[trim grotto]

Her mind and memories, somehow.

[sick yew]

Yeah I was mainly asking cause I wanted to know if the Elsie that runs around in the Legacys Lament book is the one from our timeline and simply gets the memories of the other one later or if a 2nd Elsie literally arrives in Sol

[trim grotto]

Just the one, yeah

[sick yew]

So we can be fairley sure our Elsie actually survived the collapse huh

[jagged badge]

Her time loop didn’t begin until just some decades prior to where we are now

Iirc

[sick yew]

Well yeah but her memories had to return to our Elsies body

And she was just sitting somewhere in the last city

Meaning perior to her memories being put into our timeline the Elsie that initially lived in this timeline was still alive and kicking

[ember storm]

It’s a Groundhog Day not an alternate universe

So no

Elsie just loops back around to the point of Cayde’s inauguration

She was always there on that day

[sick yew]

Are you sure?
Im fairley certain its multiple timelines and shit

[jagged badge]

Timelines branched off from a point and then she returns to the root each failure

[ember storm]

Branches that diverge at that point and then just stop existing

They’re not running concurrently with risk of being achieving multiversal travel and invading ours or anything

She says “original timeline” because a portion was just a line that was drawn from one point, stopped, erased, and then a new one was created, repeatedly

Elsie doesn’t consider there to be some “original” reality that she truly belongs to

This is the only one that exists at this point

[slim elk]

We still don't have full info on what caused the whole deathloop Elsie is trapped in.

Her starting point being a city parade is a bit random

[ember storm]

My spinfoil was that it was the witness somehow responsible because I think I misinterpreted the sundial as being powered by a seed of silver wings

Needs the traveler alive and well to make the final shape after all

[jagged badge]

Last we heard of that, the characters believed the Traveler to be responsible

Iirc

[slim elk]

Would be a nice twist if it was the Winnower the whole time

[ember storm]

Actually it was me

[slim elk]

I do lean more towards something dark being responsible because Elsie kept memories between loops

Consciousness is the Darkness domain, not the Light

[sick yew]

Real quick
I do kinda like the voice they chose for Oryx
He sounds very calm and collected like....a king

[ember storm]

Yeah people just need to remember that A:

Voice clips of Aurash are in fact young, not a monster, and also pre-any body changing

[jagged badge]

She didn’t originally

She had to fix that problem. Isn’t that what the Pouka is for?

[ember storm]

And B: all interactions with oryx in D1 were when he was severely pissed off at us specifically

He wasn’t exactly being nice on his vocal cords

[slim elk]

She did keep them based off the wording IIRC, but there's only so much you can remember

Otherwise how would she have known she was stuck in a time loop?

[ember storm]

Does she not immediately recognize it in the last dark future tab

Like one second she’s holding Ana’s body in her arms and then she’s listening to Cayde sucking at giving a speech

[empty fern]

So, the worm in Eris’s flat is hers right?

Real question is why did she keep it

[jagged badge]

How do you mean hers?

[empty fern]

I asked earlier whose worm this was (think someone here said it was Eris?)

Ah hold on lemme see if I can find it

[jagged badge]

I mean, it’s Eris’ in the sense that it’s a worm she’s apparently been keeping in her apartment for some reason

[empty fern]

I see

[slow berry]

Pet.

[empty fern]

Hmmm

[fresh zephyr]

FIRE WEEK

MY KING SPOKE

[eager trout]

When did that happen?

[strong tendon]

It’s wasn’t all the vex it was just one vex

[fresh zephyr]

Friendly harpy adventure

[empty fern]

Oh captain my captain?

[ember storm]

No

It was the mission where ghost tried disguising his signature as a vex one to gain access to their database

It was also one of the teases that Osiris was active out there before CoO with an admin level user in the net politely sending regards

the vex themselves weren’t particularly kind but they were fiercely fighting to recover what they believed was a live vex frame in guardian possession

[empty fern]

I see

[warm acorn]

I hear

[strong tendon]

I feel

[warm acorn]

I taste

[empty fern]

Nuh uh you hear

Greedy mf

[strong tendon]

I was waiting for someone to say they smell

[ember storm]

I osmose

[warm acorn]

[worldly river]

I almost feel bad for Xivu Arath
Almost

Oryx dies, Savathun turns, she proceeds to get dunked on by Savathun, dunked on by Eris, loses her Throne World, abandoned by the Witness, and now ||Oryx comes back|| and immediately starts dunking on her too

Xivu just cannot stop taking Ls

[fresh zephyr]

Oryx came back?

[strong tendon]

they gonna let xivu win one day and she’s gonna do some fucked up shit

Something real big

[jagged badge]

Not exactly

[empty fern]

Poor xivu only getting a voice in the sibling convo

So the first blade directly serves oryx, that explains his relevance

[dim minnow]

She didn't even have a voice

[empty fern]

Also

Since oryx called himself the first navigator

Are we gonna take up his mantle as his slayers?

(Just like how crow took caydes mantle)

[frigid sparrow]

is called the voice of xivu arath
can't be heard
why did xivu do this, is she stupid?

[empty fern]

And savathun calling them both childish

Again

[eager trout]

NAVIGATOR????

[empty fern]

Shut

Speaking of which

The floating symbols on the dreadnaught are just like ghosts collectibles

[eager trout]

What ghost collectibles?

[empty fern]

Ghost of the deep dungeon collectibles

[eager trout]

shrug

Who's Brya?

[worldly river]

Have you done the seasonal story for this week?

[slim elk]

Ghost of Eris Morn

[eager trout]

Ah

[hollow hinge]

Honestly

where was this writing in the past 2 episodes?

this isn't anything mindblowing but it's still absolutely good

way better than the slop we got in Echoes and Revenant

so the Echo of Navigation is an imprint of Oryx' memory from basically the moment he killed Akka and made the Dreadnought?

[jagged badge]

A very limited imprint apparently, based on him not knowing about Crota

[hollow hinge]

as I said, the moment he made the dreadnought

which he says lol

[jagged badge]

He had Crota before then

[stark fjord]

Wonder it merge with remnants of oryx or like it learns everything

[junior kernel]

anyone know where I can find a list of the comms messages the conductor sends us during each encore mission?

[frigid sparrow]

there is a transcript on destinypedia

[eager trout]

The budget and time went to this episode, probably

[hollow hinge]

assuming they haven't changed up how the work on the seasons/episodes this is the same team that made Echoes

Revenant is the other team

[desert tree]

just finished the Kludge Mission, am I misinterpreting or was Oryx just kinda like "oh, this guy killed me? alright, cool. you want a title or somethin?" before Xivu lost her shit?

[hollow hinge]

you're exactly right and it's completely in character

his faith in the sword logic was absolute and we bested him

therefore he deserves death and he wanted us to be his successor before Savathun and Xivu lost their shit

[desert tree]

huh
I wonder if he'll help us then

[frigid sparrow]

he has a pretty interesting line in nether where, since he's been catching up on lore stuff, he learns about crota's death and his arrival to sol, where he refuses to believe the idea that he came to 'avenge" crota's death, since the logic would dictate that crota deserved to die and that was that

[ember storm]

This is basically oryx before he properly fell down the Deep end

He’s pretty chill tbh

[frigid sparrow]

he's very relaxed in comparison to xivu's RAGING, INCESSANT YELLING and savathun's constant slimy smugness (I love them all)

[ember storm]

Btw I love that for how important the family reunion was, Xivu basically just sent an intern with a FaceTime connection

[frigid sparrow]

oryx is absolutely aware that xivu is acting like a chicken in hiding because she's scared of her mortality which makes it even funnier

I missed having activity dialogue that expanded with the story...

[ember storm]

Ah but what about NOT HALF BAD, GUARDIANS. IF I DIDN’T KNOW ANY BETTER, I’D SAY YOU LIKE THIS KIND OF CARNAGE

[frigid sparrow]

I loved hearing this on repeat 50x over in a run of onslaught

it did not get tiring hearing no conversations occur

like thank you for reminding us that you exist spider

even though you have zero relevance in this story

it'd be excusable if we GOT THE FUCKING MISSION DIALOGUE

I WILL NEVER NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS

like this is such a neat character moment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPdFiRfR07g&t=1s

[dim minnow]

So we finally found out what was in the Sundered Doctrine vault

||The chisel Oryx used to inscribe the secrets of the Darkness into Akka's flesh which is how the Tablets of Ruin were created||

[frigid sparrow]

yeah I left that in there mb

[eager trout]

||All that just for a chisel?||

[empty fern]

Yep

It’s a magical one

[hazy veldt]

how the hell it ended up in rhulks grasp though

[ember storm]

It’ll give good credit on pawn stars

[desert tree]

how did he go insane? did he f with the taken for too long?

[hollow hinge]

I've been thinking of when we saw first the Voice of Xivu and then Savathun appear before us and I felt it was missing something

I just realised what

this was literally THE perfect moment

to introduce us to Xivu in person for the first time

first have the memory of Oryx appear before us, then Savathun and then BOOM there she is; the hive god of war

[sleek matrix]

Yea and she was all flamed up ready to go

[hollow hinge]

even if we don't fight her this episode, it's about damn time we meet her

and imo I don't think we'll get a better setup for it than this

then again, it kinda would've been ruined by Xivu not having any voice lines recorded there so ehh

maybe this was the original plan but when they couldn't make it perfect they decided to delay it, who knows

[sleek matrix]

Was because of the strikes

[hollow hinge]

I know that

[junior kernel]

can you link it?

[frigid sparrow]

I don't know why you can't simply look it up but https://www.destinypedia.com/Encore#Transcript

[trim grotto]

Alternatively

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14G9zdNQY3RQQwtJxFmE4rsJWIb74K-gxVn7Lj0G_4ts/edit?usp=sharing
The Encore tab of... the DLC Master Archiiiiive

[river surge]

Its Rhulk, what do u expect, bro has everything in that pyramid

[sick yew]

Man's just a collector

[river surge]

I lost my sparrow where can it be?

Rhulks pyramid

[dim minnow]

Rhulk is Destiny's Trazyn

[river surge]

Bro came conquered, stole everything, left, repeat the process

[sick yew]

Rhulks pyramid is a British museum confirmed

[jagged badge]

Not really

The whole point is that Xivu is still not showing her face since being mortal

So she sends an emissary in her place to be her voice

[sick yew]

She used it as a proxy no?

[jagged badge]

Well, yeah

She could literally speak through it

But point is, she didn’t show up personally for a reason

It’s part of her character

[strong tendon]

It was literally called “voice of xivu arath”

It’s the equivalent of a living microphone

[sick yew]

Imma be real I was too blown away at Oryx baller voice

Didn't pay attention to stinky Xivu over in the corner being all butthurt

[slow berry]

I feel like in a way giving Oryx what he wants (letting him uphold the sword logic through us) is a horrible terrible idea, even if letting him also like, come back to life, is probably worse

Do we really wanna be proving the Winnower and the Sword Logic right these days

[sick yew]

With that voice I will be standing wherever he commands

[hollow hinge]

So we'll just never ever see her, got it

No I still think it was the perfect moment to properly introduce her

[hollow hinge]

He doesn't want to come back to life

[ember storm]

i mean he probably wants us to inherit the echo when we're planning on destroying

[slow berry]

I know, I mean I think letting him be dead is also bad

[hollow hinge]

lol no

[jagged badge]

I didn’t say that

[ember storm]

i doubt we'll see her in this episode tbh

[hollow hinge]

It's what you alluded to, because she doesn't want to show her face since becoming mortal

[jagged badge]

She could perhaps choose to show herself at some point. Face us honourably in combat, despite her mortality. That’d be development of her character

Or we could literally hunt her down

[slow berry]

I just feel like it's bad juju to be upholding the Sword Logic when the Winnower has its eyes on us

[ember storm]

Oryx references it outright, despite her claims Xivu is being a coward right now, unless something specifically changes that then the Voice is what we'll be getting for now

[ember storm]

winnower dosn't give a shit about the sword logic tbh

it's just hive religion

we already killed oryx 10 years ago, not much would be changing

[hollow hinge]

I would've had her desperately wanting the Dreadnought to claim her brother's throne world after losing her own

[ember storm]

all we need to do is not claim the echo for its power like maya did

it's just going to be a race to see who can get to it first between us, the dread, and the hive siblings

also like am i stupid for just now realizing the icons for the episodes were the respective echoes

[slow berry]

It gives a shit in the sense that the tennets of Sword Logic, Hive magic aside, are the principles the Winnower claims to be the inescapable rules of the universe.

[fiery rover]

or a blood raven xD

[royal adder]

whats the lore behind maya sunderesh? and what did the 12 mean in msund12

[jagged badge]

She’s an Ishtar Collective scientist who had tangled with the Vex at one point. Her and her team ended up getting simulated by the Vex (which tbh I don’t know a great deal about)

In the Collapse, she fled to Neptune on the Exodus Indigo and was among the founders of Neomuna

Discovering the Veil, she researched it and got increasingly driven to madness by it

[royal adder]

oh

[jagged badge]

Iirc, one day she just disappeared into the Vex Network, with her wife Chioma following to try and find her. In Echoes she resurfaced, and seeing all that humanity had lost in the Collapse, attempted to use the Vex to rebuild the Golden Age

Or her fucked up, twisted idea of it

[royal adder]

yeah

so basically she wanted what we lost in the golden age back but went the wrong way about it?

[jagged badge]

Mhm

One of her additional goals was trying to find her wife. She discarded a lot of different simulations of Chioma, for their fear of her and perceived differences in their pasts. However, we learn she even ended up murdering the original Chioma

[royal adder]

oh god

[jagged badge]

Chioma had stood up to Maya and told her what she was doing was wrong, and Maya in her fucked up mindset went “you don’t agree with me? You aren’t my Chioma”

[royal adder]

to her chioma wouldnt have gone against her even if what she was doing is wrong

and she went out to find the chioma that would agree with her ideals

[sick yew]

Does that even work?

Can you just claim another one's throne world

[fluid peak]

If you kill them then yeah

By all rights we (the guardian) could claim oryx's throne, but we chose not to and defied the sword logic

Pissed Toland off

But that leaves the dreadnought ownerless

[sick yew]

So Xivu can't claim the Dreadnaught as her throne world

[slim girder]

No. Because she didn't earn it

[sick yew]

Yep

[slim girder]

We did but refused it

[hollow hinge]

It's not the intended way to claim it without killing them but since we left it to rot I'm sure there's some ritual she could perform

In their ways it'd be heretical but hey that's the title of the episode

[slim girder]

She still wouldn't take it even if it was right there.
Goes against the sword logic

[fluid peak]

Yeah I really wanna know what the heresy is actually going to be this episode lol

[slim girder]

And xivu is a fanatic of the sword logic

[fluid peak]

So far we've been following the letter of hive law

[sleek matrix]

she is a hypocrite

[hollow hinge]

She is picky when it comes to following it tbf

[sleek matrix]

like savathun said

oryx is a hypocrite too

for having a son crota and trying to revenge him

[fluid peak]

The sword logic is a paradox

It doesn't work

[sick yew]

There's a lot of hypocrites in the d2 universe tbf

[slim girder]

Part of it is the fact that oryx has technically come back.
But it does also involve eris so that could mean something later down the line

[clever tiger]

Every character in Destiny 2 is a hypocrite

[sleek matrix]

its not oryx we knew from taken king

its a different oryx

[sick yew]

Not every but quite a few

[slim girder]

It's a younger memory of oryx

[green cobalt]

Echo of the Navigator:

[sick yew]

Indeed, he's got a cooler voice

[sleek matrix]

yes

[vivid dew]

What's the sword logic? Low surface area=more damage?

[hard rover]

I thought claiming throne worlds and power could only be done by other hive, which is why we had to use eris to kill witch queen

[green cobalt]

you kill things and get stronger and more respected or something

[slim girder]

Kill until you are the only one left standing at the end of the universe

[blazing wasp]

Claiming throne worlds aren't a known phenomenon

It's entirely speculation

[sick yew]

Only those strong enough deserve to exist
And you must prove that by continously challenging everyone in combat
Very basically

[blazing wasp]

Also hive aren't the only ones who can make a throne world

[slim girder]

No one has actually claimed a throne world in game or the lore.

[sleek matrix]

until

[blazing wasp]

They're just the best at it

[sick yew]

Shoutouts to our homie the mindbender

[clever tiger]

It's the same oryx we're just getting more story for him instead of just being

"YOUR LIGHT BELONGS TO ME"

And

"AT LAST I WILL HAVE VENGEANCE"

And

"Heheheh"

[blazing wasp]

Until assumes we know eris actually stole it

[slim girder]

We don't know what will happen but honestly I don't think it'll happen.

[sleek matrix]

more than likely

[blazing wasp]

Oryx in D1 was teased from the getgo as lore above story kinda feller

[blazing wasp]

Based on very little or nothing

[slim girder]

My bet is eris does actually have a throne world though she didn't actually know it that moment

[blazing wasp]

It only exists as a theory because we have almost zero information

[slim girder]

Again we'll just have to see.

Lots can be uncovered

We've only just finished the first act

[sick yew]

Oh that was act 1?

[green cobalt]

yeah

[sick yew]

Family reunion

[blazing wasp]

We don't know how throne worlds are made, if they can be shrunk without the owner dying, how they are tied to someone, how you change it

Etc etc

[clever tiger]

But we're getting more details

[blazing wasp]

Yes

[slim girder]

Yes the echoed warnings quest was the whole of act 1 and we finished it this week

[blazing wasp]

Very cool, very good, I enjoy a lot

[sick yew]

I didn't pay attention ngl

To the amount of quest steps

[blazing wasp]

We also have no idea what happened to eris, we don't even know if it's a throne world

Given her ties with hive, it's a reasonable assumption this is a throne world

But for all we know it could be hive heaven or some shit

[slim girder]

I don't think it could be anything else but I'm all for surprises

[green cobalt]

what if the world just did that on its own

it just throned

[blazing wasp]

Fucked up world we live in

[sick yew]

Eris got teleported to the hive leaderboard

[slim girder]

Eris was able to garner enough power from killing savathun to become the most powerful hive in existence even if it was only for a minute or so

[blazing wasp]

"your high score was #1! Congratulations!"

[sick yew]

"You can now play as Luigi"

[slim girder]

Speaking of this act. Wonder what will happen with drifter. Like how far did he go and where?
(Yes i know he's still in the tower for gambit)

[sick yew]

Honestly? Somehow I feel like went to the Nine

Mostly because of that weird Nine thingy from the seasonal challenges

Maybe he went to Orin for emotional support

[slow berry]

There's some stuff with people going off-system innit

[ember storm]

“I’m already half gone”
two minutes later
ALRIGHT MAVERICKS-

[sick yew]

Not really
Quite few have ever been off Sol

[slim girder]

Actually you know what? If I had a big portal that led to a big white area full of nothingness I'd go there to if I was stressed

[sick yew]

Drifter, Shin Malphur (presumably) uuuuh yeah that's really about it

Probably a handful of others but I don't think they were ever really much explored lore wise

[slim girder]

With frontiers coming I expect we'll be starting to get more on things outside of sol

[sick yew]

Mayhaps

Also important to remember that Travel outside of Sol only really became safe literally just now
Pre Final Shape you probably ran into some parked pyramid and got blown to bits sooner or later

[slim girder]

Not really it was more a case of "We need to focus on rebuilding"

[ember storm]

It was mostly just the fear of the unknown

[ember storm]

Not even rebuilding it was just the fact we literally never got a moment to breathe

The vanguard put out a “all lightless civilians are to stay in the city” since the disappearance of the planets

[sick yew]

We for sure but I'm talking in general
Shit ton of non vanguard aligned guardians had tons of time to bounce

[slim girder]

Because remember that the black fleet was outside of the galaxy when the collapse was all over.

In the red war we saw they were lightyears away just hanging out and sleeping

But again we were just trying to rebuild and live new lives protecting the stuff that was at least near us

Which pre lightfall was anything up to Jupiter.

Only during lightfall did we actually go past that and it was because we were chasing calus not because we thought there was anything there for us to reclaim from the collapse.

[green cobalt]

what were pyramid ships anyway aside from empty moving EMP machines

feels like such a blunder ngl

[slim girder]

They're a lot more complicated than that. They're sentient in a way and as of recently are in a state of mourning because they don't have anything to lead them

And as for what they can do well i think the most aggressive example is using gravity to pull titan until it was an egg shape and then let go causing an apocalyptic level tsunami

Rhulks pyramid is filled with a ton of relics along with weapons like the upender and also the many experiments trying to mix hive worms with scorn

[sick yew]

Even tho we don't really see them used as such I'm pretty sure they were also used as troup transports for various forces aligned with the Witness

That and remember that the Witness can reshape them into whatever they want

All the pyramids that went into the Pale heart got reshaped into the Spire where the raid takes place and some other structures

[green cobalt]

which we've never seen done afaik

[sick yew]

This

[green cobalt]

tell don't show

[sick yew]

I mean we see the result

Just look at the Witnesses spire

[green cobalt]

[sick yew]

Or the area where the final campaign mission takes place

The place where the Witness was formed got repackaged as a pyramid and then "unfolded" in the pale heart again

[green cobalt]

is that not just from a memory like the rest of the pale heart?

[sick yew]

I doubt that since the whole structure is quite unique to the surrounding area

The other areas which were formed from memory blend together and stuff

Like a dream

[green cobalt]

hmm let me bring the one thing that kills me

[sick yew]

But the structure of the final campaign mission is unique and rather separate

[sick yew]

I mean the Witness couldn't forsee that that's how we'd use that space

[slim girder]

That wasn't it. It was just the memory of it and that's just how we learnt from the dissenters of how to unmake it.

They told us what to look for

[sick yew]

The Witness likely didn't anticipate we'd ever even follow them into the pale heart

[green cobalt]

so it was a memory of it?

[sick yew]

I disagree but eh

[green cobalt]

[sick yew]

Maybe it was a memory but they just redecorated?

Idfk

[slim girder]

It was yes. As much as the witness didn't want it the traveler would make things out of it's memories

As is the nature of the pale heart

[sick yew]

Then couldn't they have just removed that place?

Dissect or hide it

[slim girder]

They did. Remember they sealed those dissenters to try and stop us from finding it. Obviously though the dissenters were able to reach out and give us a clue though

[green cobalt]

they also had the billion bosses and glyphkeepers before we got there

[sick yew]

Yeah but why do that when you could just select place I could be harmed at and ctrl+del that shit

Just remove it

[green cobalt]

though that's debatably lore

[slim girder]

The pale heart is what the witness needs. It wouldn't be a good idea to destroy it

It's focus was getting to the light so it could enact the final shape

[sick yew]

Then place that shit somewhere out in the void idfk

Oh well plot gotta plot

[green cobalt]

make the pyramid ships do something challenge

[sick yew]

But regardless @green cobalt the spire in which Salvations Edge happens is most definitely one or multiple pyramid ships reformed

[slim girder]

Not up to the witness. Remember the pale heart makes these memories real so where they pop up is probably random aside from the witnesses monolith

[green cobalt]

so far i've learned they're also building blocks, which is not cool or what i was looking for

[slim girder]

They're just ships. I know it might be a bit boring but that's really it.
Sentient, big and powerful ships that follow the witness.

[green cobalt]

and empty

boring fumble 💅

[sick yew]

What were you looking for bud?
A McDonalds?

[slim girder]

Well yeah because the ship itself is sentient.

It doesn't need anyone or a pilot

[green cobalt]

they were imposing and menacing all this time to learn they're actually only empty ships and sometimes building blocks and there's nothing else about them

idk

[sick yew]

I mean

Theyre scary as shit

[green cobalt]

they were

[sick yew]

Just one of those things would have anihilated humanity in the golden age

The only things that ever took one down were the Traveler beam and uh Savathun ig

[green cobalt]

i guess because they're portable EMP machines

[sick yew]

Im sure they also have other weaponry

[slim girder]

@green cobalt ^^^^

[green cobalt]

ig my main gripe is i'd like to see things happen instead of being told they happened

[slim girder]

They can definitely cause havoc if it's called for

[sick yew]

Two raids and a dungeon happen in them

Technically 3 raids if you count Salvations Edge

[green cobalt]

wowzers

[sick yew]

Rhulks pyramid is a gigantic museum for all sorts of shit and houses a bigass weapon