📚lore-discussion

[fresh zephyr]

I think I just froze

Barrow Dyad

There’s a line in the lore from the other party that says “Take what you need”

In the ship Nacre from the unknown writer, there is also a line that says “take what you need”

I think we have some Winnower

[empty fern]

Winnowers navigator

[sick yew]

Referring to this I take it?

Cause idk about you but that doesnt sound like the Winnower to me

Not what they see themselves at

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah! That’s it

There’s a line like that in Nacre so I was like OMG

[sick yew]

The Winnower wouldnt consider itself the knife

Intervention on their behalf would go against their philosophy

[slim girder]

I believe that is actually this new dread threat. Leader of the "dire" taken.

I forget it's name

Keit'hre or somthing

[jagged badge]

Her name is Kiet’ehr

Aka Keith

[slim girder]

It's a her?

[jagged badge]

All Subjugators are female

[slim girder]

Interesting. Didn't think the dread had genders.

Where was that lore discovered?

[ember storm]

me

[jagged badge]

Talked about by an ex-employee on Twitter before Final Shape came out and now confirmed in Sundered Doctrine’s quest

[slim girder]

I haven't been able to progress the quest much. I'll be doing that today though and getting up to speed on everything from that dungeon.

[fresh zephyr]

Slightly scary that these fragments are ghosts covered in octopus

Tentacles

[ember storm]

what fragments

[fresh zephyr]

For the exotic

[ember storm]

those aren't ghosts

those are calcified fragments from D1

with the new corruption thing slapped on top

[fresh zephyr]

Oh yeah

[slow berry]

Weren't they trying to use the lore tab on Euphony as a translation basis, believing the "recessed stone wall" mentioned existed somewhere?

[trim grotto]

It was a lead that went nowhere, but yes.

Translating the language has been a slow process

[empty fern]

Wonder if we can ask some of the lay offs on twitter for help (with dread language)

[eager trout]

Hol' up, a knife??!?

Not again.

[empty fern]

How long do y’all think it’ll be until we talk about this mission

[slim girder]

Wdym? It's out, we already know stuff about it.

[empty fern]

No one talks about it here

Like why is one taken and one not

Why is it locked up in a vault

[lofty badge]

i have not even done the quest yet lol

but idk when i wll do it

[sleek matrix]

He didn't wanna get taken

[empty fern]

[sleek matrix]

He refused to be granted power (taken) since it goes against sword logic were it must be earned thorough the sword logic

[empty fern]

What about the other him

[sleek matrix]

He's basically split into two

[empty fern]

Weird

[sleek matrix]

Oryx tried to take him but instead this is the result

[empty fern]

Split, then sealed, then unsealed, then unsplit
Then sealed again

[tacit osprey]

I’m too low Power for the quest

[lofty badge]

what power level are u?

[lofty badge]

Jimmy, Aspect of Placeholding.?

[fresh zephyr]

When you see the Dreadnaught comparisons, you really see how decayed and dead it has become

[lofty badge]

yeah it has been sitting there for..

how many years ingame have passed since the taken king?

lorewise i mean

[fresh zephyr]

Over a decade

September 2015

[lofty badge]

holy damn

[fresh zephyr]

Or very close

I should say

[lofty badge]

so yeah it has just been floating there for 10 years

[fresh zephyr]

The Skyburners ship collapsed too. It really feels abandoned

Osiris went there, but there’s been no real presence and zero maintenance since the death of Oryx

[lofty badge]

yeah the other day i just noticed looking at some debris entangled by tendrils that it was the skyburners ship

[ember storm]

technically with a couple months or so slapped on top

red war was the only timeskip

[grand jungle]

Subjators are females?

[green cobalt]

apparently so

[grand jungle]

I only just found out

[eager trout]

Question is, what are they based on?

[ember storm]

visually rhulk's model, but apparently the new dungeon lore says something like splitting tormentors in half

[lofty badge]

but possbly shaping them to look like Rhulk

[dim minnow]

That seems to only be the two we fight in Dual Destiny.

Though it's possible other Subjugators duos have a similar origin

[empty fern]

Insert Rick and Morty
Morty split gif here

[ember storm]

I only have starro gif

[empty fern]

F

[dim minnow]

It's not outright confirmed that the methods the Witness uses to create each Dread in the dungeon gear lore tabs are the only way those Dread units are created

[tacit osprey]

1970

[empty fern]

Why

[lofty badge]

i think Panthers have not played for a while

[brittle dirge]

If Atraks is so cool why isn’t there an Atraks-2?

[tacit osprey]

Yes

[split aurora]

Can someone explain to me how pyramid drink worm makes sense.

made the wrong call on kerrev and Im a little confused lore wise

[sleek matrix]

rulk pyramid used worms as a main power source

in the vow raid

[split aurora]

Yeah thats what I was guessing, I guess it should be 'consume' instead of drink, drink def threw me off

[trim grotto]

Think of drink as "powers" or "fuelled". There are some other situations where this phrasing might make more sense.

[glacial spindle]

Eris is dead?

[split aurora]

While we're on the subject, would Witness Drink Light be correct? I know he TRIED to but he didnt succeed

[glacial spindle]

Why do I feel like this is going to tie in to her not failing at the end of Taken King

[split aurora]

Spoiler||She's most likely in her throne world. People also are wondering if she owns Xivu Arath's throne world since what happened in season of the witch||

[ember storm]

Huh

The only thing that happened at the end of taken king was Eris taking the shard of Willbreaker

The shard that’s immediately given to us that we give to Shaxx to make the exotic sword

[strong tendon]

Back in the days of d1 where the only swords that existed were exotic. Or that one weird legendary taken one

[ember storm]

the exotic swords were originally legendary too

[strong tendon]

Yeah I guess

But who used those lol

[ember storm]

People who didn’t know about the exotic version probably

[strong tendon]

Bring back young wolf’s howl. It wasn’t great but it was fun

well I guess wave frames exist now

But it’s not the same

[odd dove]

Question(s), can someone tell me:

1. What are weapons of sorrow?
2. What counts as a weapon of sorrow?
3. Is barrow-dyad a weapon of sorrow?

[spiral sorrel]

1. Evil stuff like thorn and osteo striga 2. Stuff that was corrupted, like thorn was born from Rose through hive magic and can kill light 3. No, barrow-dyad is a precursor to a weapon of sorrow though

[odd dove]

Thanks tuna muncher for explaining it, also what you mean by a precursor to a weapon of sorrow?

[spiral sorrel]

Tbh not really sure what it is a precursor to. But weapons of sorrow are often, but not always, usually just something that isnt exactly corrupted but then later transforms into something else by something

Thats the quick and easy stuff but byf has a bunch of weapons of sorrow videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agSbCEz3pTI

[ember storm]

tl;dr, the only confirmed weapons of sorrow we have are two guardian weapons that were corrupted by the hive with the intent of being used against us (thorn and necrochasm)

Last Word was also captured and in the process of being forged into one by a hive weaponsmith

What bungie calls “weapons of sorrow” in their blog posts are just things that interact with necrotic grips, not all of them are actually really WoS

[eager trout]

What sword?

[lost abyss]

I'm still confused as to what even constitutes as a WoS, in the first place. There doesn't seem to really be an implied criteria afaik

[ember storm]

It is a weapon that is a source of sorrow based upon a reinterpretation of the books of sorrow

Brute force to just overpower your enemies is fine enough, but forcing your enemies to become your own strength also gives brownie points

[eager trout]

Imagine a Taken subclass where one of the debuffs makes enemies fight for you

[ember storm]

Necrochasm was reportedly an auto rifle the hidden swarm claimed during the great disaster, and thorn cursed and caused the downfall of one of the city’s best guardians

Jury’s out on Touch of Malice, but if you go with the idea that oryx was planning on his successor killing him and wielding his power as their own, it could also fit

Osteo Striga is just like, a fanmade bootleg though

[eager trout]

Sith type strategy

[lost abyss]

So, Osteo falls into this because of it's flavor text being associated with the Lucent's "Revision of Sorrow"?

[ember storm]

No, as per my last message

[lost abyss]

Oh, I can't read

[ember storm]

It was made by a guardian who lost her mind and became obsessed with them herself and just made her own

Nobody had any hand in her downfall, she just lost it and made one from scratch

Also she got her hands on the original thorn and killed a coworker or two with it

She’s also still on the run

Murdering people with her “baby” that needs a healthy diet of human entrails

Normal stuff

[lost abyss]

Yeah, Jana-14. Our favorite unhinged and murderous Exo.

[lost abyss]

Inb4 this gets entirely retconned in the future and everything that does kinetic green poison DoT, is canonically made into a WoS

[eager trout]

Bungie and their crazy women

What was the first Pyramid to arrive on Sol?

[dim minnow]

well, Nezarec's Pyramid is very likely since he was the one in charge of the Collapse

[lost abyss]

Probably the Lunar Pyramid, yeah.

[dim minnow]

and his Pyramid remained buried beneath the Moon for centuries

but if you want to know about the Pyramids that the Witness sent to Sol afterwards

I believe it would be the one we see on Io

[eager trout]

Well I haven't played that

Because it's no longer in the game

[eager trout]

But uh, do we know who it belonged to?

[dim minnow]

no one really

not all Pyramids belonged to someone specifically

only a Disciple seems to have their own Pyramid

[eager trout]

Also, didn't Clovis Bray get Clarity Control from the pyramid in Europa?

[dim minnow]

Rhulk has the sunken one in Sav's Throne World
Nezarec has the Lunar Pyramid
Calus has the Typhon Imperator

[ember storm]

It was just the statue

No pyramid was there

[dim minnow]

it was just Clarity Control

[ember storm]

Pyramid showed up later just to give us stasis

[dim minnow]

Europan Pyramid didn't arrive until some time during Season of Arrivals

at the earliest

[eager trout]

Then how did Clovis get Clarity Control?

When did the pyramid on Io arrive?

When did Io disappear?

[dim minnow]

he found it on Europa after being guided by the K1 Anomaly

[dim minnow]

at the start of Season of Arrivals, the last season of Y3

[dim minnow]

at the end of Season of Arrivals alongside Mercury, Mars, and Titan

[eager trout]

Where was it in Europa? Like, what did he find-? How do you find an ability?

[dim minnow]

Clarity Control IS the Statue

the one you see in the DSC raid

[ember storm]

The witness specifically told him to go to Europa to find something and left it there for him

[eager trout]

Oh, I haven't done that one.

Btw, what's the red ice?

[dim minnow]

bacteria and radiation

[eager trout]

And why did the Witness do that?

[dim minnow]

nothing that special

[dim minnow]

the Witness wanted to coax Clovis into working for it

[ember storm]

Because he was easily manipulated

[eager trout]

Clovis Bray's final shape is just his face carved on everything

[ember storm]

If he had survived the general lack of good health and his exo rebirth went the way he wanted, he probably would’ve been disciple material

[eager trout]

Btw, how long had Xol been on Io?

Actually, what is on Io?

[ember storm]

Nothing in particular

It’s just the last place the traveler managed to reach

[dim minnow]

aver since his death in the end of the Warmind campaign

[ember storm]

Xol only went to Io specifically to lure us there after the Warmind campaign and because he had limited control of the taken

[dim minnow]

Pyramidion
Cradle

[ember storm]

Theoretically he would’ve only been there like a day

[dim minnow]

Pyramidion being a crucial Vex facility and the Cradle was where the Traveler touched down on Io

that one area in the Pale Heart with the big tree is based on that area

[eager trout]

Oh

[eager trout]

I don't have the Pale Heart

[dim minnow]

huh...

[eager trout]

What does the Pyramidion do?

[eager trout]

I don't have Final Shape

[dim minnow]

it's just a huge Vex facility, I'm not sure how well described its purpose was

I think it was initially meant to be a raid in D1 on Mars, but was scrapped

[ember storm]

Pretty sure it wasn’t even physically on Io

Like that was just a gate to access it

[eager trout]

What about Neptune? Why was there something there?

[ember storm]

There was no pyramidion on Neptune

[eager trout]

And why didn't the Traveler go further?

[ember storm]

Genuine question how much of the game have you played

[eager trout]

I mean why does it have land

[ember storm]

It doesn’t technically

The neomuni did that

[ember storm]

There was sorta something called the collapse

Might’ve heard about it

[eager trout]

Oh, so it happened then

How long did it take for the Traveler to reach each place, then?

[ember storm]

Yeah Io was barely changed enough to be habitable

Just got normal gravity and an atmosphere

The traveler just took its time watching it seems like

Only really went about terraforming once humanity was actually ready to colonize the system

[eager trout]

Isn't there something that says how Neptune had islands floating around when they arrived?

[dim minnow]

I swear there was a lore tab that stated something terraformed Neptune, but not in the way the Traveler would

[ember storm]

Mightve been Savathun I dunno

I don’t care about neomuna

[plain topaz]

Is Oryx’s throne world literally just the Dreadnaught or is it a different area close to it.

[dim minnow]

his Throne World is inside of it

[plain topaz]

Crazy

[dim minnow]

yeah, he turned it inside-out to do this
invented a new Hive holiday called Inversion day where they turn things inside out

[plain topaz]

Lmao

[young sigil]

So we couldn't kill the boss in the Exotic mission orrr? Why did we have to seal it? What are the implications of that?

[sick yew]

Imprisoned for their crimes

[sick yew]

I think the implications is they got too strong to just shoot gun

[dim minnow]

maybe he'll be a problem for later down the line

[slim girder]

I have a feeling he'll be showing up again at some point. Either in the mission itself when we go for the exotic catalysts or in some other places since they are part of xivus brood.

[lofty badge]

he becomes the next returning villian who refuses to stay dead?

final boss of Destiny: Taniks, avatar of the Winnower

[sleek matrix]

This could be what they meant by shaking up the hive pantheon

[fresh zephyr]

There’s a new Taken King/Queen so it’s pointless to fight a Taken

It dies, returns again

[eager trout]

Which boss, which mission?

[fresh zephyr]

New exotic mission

[lofty badge]

https://youtu.be/wbIbHcMcQ4I?si=ZxVDus7vQToei5nq

[sick yew]

Clickbait ass shit

Aint watching that

[fresh zephyr]

I avoid Evaze like the plague

Helloooo Guardianss

[lofty badge]

Lol okay..

[trim grotto]

Evaze has showcased some absolutely insane things and thus I have not watched his content

[ember storm]

https://tenor.com/view/marvel-fan4stic-fantastic-four-the-thing-say-that-again-gif-9345984830195785978

[fresh zephyr]

The one good deed he did for me the last decade was uploading the Destiny 2 menu theme early

[slim girder]

I watch evaze when byf hasn't uploaded in a while. Because every once in a while he makes some sense.

[trim grotto]

I watch neither

[fluid peak]

Of course you don't watch byf

You are byf

[fresh zephyr]

We have a better Byf

[ember storm]

ME

[slim girder]

Byf brought up a point of barrow dyad being the one in its lore card saying "take up the knife"
Then I remembered that bungie did say the weapon was sentient so it does make sense.
Also if you look at the weapon it is beating and moving like it's alive

[fresh zephyr]

That’s what I thought

Surely not the Winnower

😭

At a push maybe Oryx

[slim girder]

The weapon also says "i am here, your objective, a new weapon" feel like only something wanting to be used would say that.
And the weapon was our objective for the exotic mission

We just didn't know it was a weapon at the time just a taken signal

[lofty badge]

yee same

[hot cypress]

so how come can bladedancers turn invisible, i thought it was more of a void thing for that to happen not an arc thing

[trim grotto]

Oh, easy. He likes to say he stole the secret of stealth tech from Rasputin, and that's how Bladedancers learned the trick. Hah!"

Tevis```
Honestly, I don't think there's a specific answer for it.

[slim girder]

Did cayde ever use other elements? I think I remember a lore tab about him explaining why he wouldn't use darkness but considering his speech about Nightstalkers i wonder if he ever used that power.

Or if he just stuck to being a gunslinger.

[trim grotto]

He preferred Solar, certainly, but yes, he did.

[trim grotto]

Wanna know what my favourite form of lore is, Retro?

Bounty lore? Lore books? Weapon tabs? Naw.

Emote lore.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/arcstriders-patience

[slim girder]

Hell yeah I like that as well lol.

[trim grotto]

As for Nightstalker, well, you just mentioned the source for that one.

So yeah, he could use them, but was a Gunslinger at heart.

[slim girder]

Referencing that speech again it did sound a lot like cayde knew a bit about void light used by hunters. Saying things like "Some of us touch the void, and then we take a name" like he has experience in that department.

[fresh zephyr]

Omg it happened again

Rewatching the Transform cutscene from Witch, and Eris once again says “take what I need”

Can someone with more lore knowledge put this to rest

😭😭😭

[jagged badge]

Wdym?

[fresh zephyr]

Hold on

https://youtu.be/exktzVZvzU8?si=qdPO21NSR4jQJEMk&t=92

[fresh zephyr]

.

Maybe I’m over analyzing

But this sentence keeps popping up

[jagged badge]

I mean, it’s just the general sentiment of the Deep/the Sword Logic

Survival of the fittest. Earning your strength and taking what you need at your will

[fresh zephyr]

That’s what I thought, so the ship lore tab writer must be something like the Deep

[tacit osprey]

Sword logic, TAKING what you need, the TAKEN, oryx the TAKEN king, something’s on the dreadnaught TAKING, who is TAKING, on the dreadnaught? We don’t know who’s TAKING, but we’re gonna find out and put a stop to all this TAKING, before we too get TOOKEN, by the TAKER, who’s on the dreadnaught, TAKING, like oryx the TAKEN king, but wait, the TAKER is TAKING like oryx the TAKEN king. So maybe the TAKER that’s TAKING on the dreadnaught is not oryx the TAKEN king, but oryx the TAKING king, because he’s TAKING right now!

[eager trout]

The Hive sure like taking

[tacit osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/hive-nostalgiacraft-nc-nostalgia-craft-chiboyen-gif-17304208318003847170

[empty fern]

While the weird younger sister Sathona wants to give
What a weirdo
Giving the traveler a safe space

[tacit osprey]

Clearly she doesn’t have sword logic

[empty fern]

But she does have a thing to say about bomb logic

[ember storm]

Funnily enough the power to take actually has nothing to do with sword logic as the witness neither respected or subscribed to it at all

Akka simply held the knowledge personally which oryx claimed after killing him

[empty fern]

Akka lost some weight

[eager trout]

Who's Akka?

Also, why does Xur say it's a good idea to sterilize your Ghost?

[strong tendon]

One of the worm gods. Oryx killed him and made his body into his Dreadnaught

[eager trout]

Ah, so that's the worm

[strong tendon]

After oryx killed akka he also communed with the winnower and learned the power to take

And transitioned from Auryx to oryx the taken king

[dim minnow]

It's a reference to some popular game show host and the Starhorse makes Xur say it

[empty fern]

Remember, to spooder and nade your ghost (I forgot the exact words)

[fresh zephyr]

is there any dialouge about wyverns?

does our ghost not at all comment about them the first time we see them in Beyond Light?

[slim girder]

No. We have nothing on wyverns atm

[vivid dew]

Why do Exo Guardians know their reset number when upon first resurrection, a guardian isn't meant to have any memories? Do they just make one up? Or do guardian deaths also count?

[ember storm]

ghosts read it in their data

like you know how human dna has a sequence? exo code has their name embedded in it

[trim grotto]

(also if guardian deaths counted, cayde would have been far more than 6)

[vivid dew]

Idk, maybe he's a cool guy who just cheats a little

But it makes good sense why they'd know. I always found it strange that that is the only thing any guardian seems to remember from their previous life

[eager trout]

Cayde-173

(I'm just guessing)

[hollow hinge]

Only Exos and a few select guardians that had name tags or something similar on them when they died initially

Like Ana Bray

[eager trout]

Are Rhulk and Nezarec named after anything?

[hollow hinge]

Rhulk after his uncle and Nezerec his great great grandmother

[eager trout]

....I mean the inspiration for their names irl

[clever tiger]

Everybody called me insane everybody said I was wrong and that the husk are just random beings made from the witness but I called it! The Husk are fallen

[dim minnow]

important to note that there is a chance that the minds and bodies used to make each Dread unit may not be the same

there is a possibility that not all Husks are made from Fallen

[clever tiger]

But a lore card says the Fallen that got turned into the first husk said there was multiple that were just like him but they did not acknowledge Him

So they must all come from a fallen that believed in Kell Of Darkness's beliefs

[clever tiger]

They said in the Lore card that there was multiple fallen

[fresh zephyr]

Do you think thats on purpose?

[slim girder]

Could be

No clue

[ember storm]

do we have individual lore on what separates a dreg from a wretch

no not really because their jobs are functionally the same

all named wyverns and bosses have filled the same basic roles as other vex we've been fighting for years, so there's really nothing else to them

if wyverns were truly meant to be the "combat" vex that calus telegraphed, why would the glassway boss, who is an active offensive invader in the expansion they were introduced, just be a big hydra

because wyverns are really just as ordinary as every other vex

[eager trout]

What's the function of a Hydra?

[eager trout]

One thing though. Wyverns are the only Vex (that I know of) that have a weapon named after a weapon (Warp Lance), not counting the Slap and Line rifles, which are known to be tools.

[ember storm]

thermal lances

[eager trout]

Oh

[warm acorn]

:D

[eager trout]

So basically, Warp Lances weld things together by warping reality

[blazing wasp]

Vex does not warp reality, they're very much follow it

They're the only enemy race to never at any point fuck with reality in any significant manner

[eager trout]

I mean warp it on a small scale. Or technically something with gravity, since it's Void.

[modern lodge]

considering all the seasons, we are pretty strong especially right now with learning to take

we also know a lil hive magic aswell right?

[slim girder]

We are not learning to take. We are just dipping our toes into the power so that we can use it to have advantage over the dread.
As for hive magic that was more from outside sources like eris chanting spells but we don't know hive magic ourselves

[tacit osprey]

guys

im mid final shape

so crow wished cayde back?

no spoils past that

is that what he said i missed the dialogue

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/unforeseen-consequences

In the Season directly before Final Shape, we enlisted the aid of Riven's spirit - the Ahamkara of the Dreaming City.

With Riven's aid, we were able to send Crow though the portal, and in turn his connection to Mara allowed us to follow.
But... Riven being what she is, she wasn't quite content to leave Crow be, and so came our Unforeseen Consequences.

[neat tide]

so was it ever answered why the traveler gave the light to savathun?

[dim minnow]

the Traveler wanted to bless the Krill (Hive before being Hive) but the Witness got to the first

hence why Hive can be rezzed

Savathun in particular has some theories

[errant tapir]

What are the consequences?

[trim grotto]

Cayde coming back.

[errant tapir]

Oooo

I thought traveller revived cayde

[trim grotto]

You might want to watch the cutscene again.

[errant tapir]

I've already seen it

[trim grotto]

And you saw the Ahamkara?
There was also a conversation in the campaign between Crow and Cayde about it.

[dim minnow]

how long was the r missing from my name?

@fringe lantern !

[errant tapir]

Yes

[trim grotto]

There you go then

[errant tapir]

Crow's sister name is what again?

[trim grotto]

Queen Mara Sov

[dim minnow]

Mara Sov

[errant tapir]

Oh yeah

Mara with techeun along with white riven yada yada

Mara negotiate, we get eggs, eggs recovered. Talk to white riven, heyyy croww, get your ass in to the portal, your sister will be able to sense you. You be the bait

That's what I remember

[viscid mirage]

this is in fact a thermal lances

[tacit osprey]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1322051920893841418/1339375876021817464/image.png?ex=67b1217d&is=67afcffd&hm=b76dfa80a99a45bed016103bd4bd04f0e00a880d8294b1977b2de9e84ca0873c&

I love her..

[lofty badge]

lol that is a good screenshot

[fringe lantern]

Nearly a month 💀

[slim girder]

Some lore in this game really makes me grimace.
Truce licked finalitys auger and then cut off his tongue to avoid any contamination. I always shudder when characters in anything cut their own body parts off.

[versed orbit]

freaky fella

[slim girder]

Maybe some guardians don't feel it anymore after being alive for so long and probably dying countless times.

[versed orbit]

why did he lick the gun though

[slim girder]

To test what it was made of.
It's made of bone because it stuck to his tongue

Not stone like he thought

[sleek matrix]

The latest dungeon is so different from vow where that was more of a museum

This kinda show the evil rulk was doing experimenting on the worms for the purpose to make weird bossses

Like care taker

The day to day stuff

I do think the worms are probably happy we killed rulk

[slim girder]

It's the laboratory of the ship pretty much. Where rhulk experimented with worms big and small.
Not too sure what the actual goal was though but I'm guessing with worms granting power when fed they were going to try and mix them with the scorn.
Inside each of the quartz prison blocks you can see a scorn with a worm shoved into its head.
The big worms might have just been for study purposes.

But clearly they tried escaping given how we find them in the dungeon burrowing through the place

[sleek matrix]

I usually don't feel sorry for worms but those kinda looked like they were created just to be experiments

Born to die basically

[slim girder]

Pretty much. That was the nature of the experiments. Study worms, find ways to make the scorn more powerful, and I'm sure many other twisted things.

[strong tendon]

So husks aren’t hive after all. They’re eliksni?

also are tormentors the only dread not made from the light and dark? Because they were around before the witness got into the traveller

[next bobcat]

I’m pretty sure husks are dread, no?

[ember storm]

Dread are all made of other things reshaped by the witness’ own design

[next bobcat]

Ah really?

But also, if we made nezarec’s new body out of light and dark throughout the RoN raid, why do tormentors have the same body even though we encountered them long before, and nezarec originally looked a lot different?

[sleek matrix]

Husk are mutilated eliksni

[ember storm]

all it means is he didn’t have weird mutated veins of light and dark constantly changing

Also his body was probably red because it was just made like a newborn cat or something

Nezarec’s new body was grown from his head, it wasn’t all totally new, just souped up

[next bobcat]

But if the tormentors were shaped after him, why does he only get that body later?

[ember storm]

I’m saying his general build is actually normal

[next bobcat]

And if not, who were the tormentors based off?

[ember storm]

His new powers were not

Tormentors are nezarec

[next bobcat]

I’m really confused

[ember storm]

Light doesn’t give guardians different appearances when they’re rezzed even if their entire body is remade by their ghost

Nezarec’s body was remade and then mutated, it wasn’t wholly original

The light and darkness in his body just led to this happening

[next bobcat]

Ok, ok, I get that, so because of the light and the darkness, he wasn’t brought back but weird, like we see him in the raid.

My question is, if this remade body only appeared at the end of the raid, how were tormentors (which we encountered before) shaped after him?

[ember storm]

That’s what his body is normally shaped like

[next bobcat]

Because in a lot of pictures of old nezarec (like in plunder) we see him as this slim robed figure, almost like a warlock

[ember storm]

Growing wings and having paracausal energy pouring out of his chest and shoulder is the new part

[ember storm]

We have no pictures of old nezarec

That was just copy pasted art assets of Rhulk before Nez’s design was finalized

[next bobcat]

Oh

Ok then

[ember storm]

The inkblot cutscenes are famously used as ways to cut back on costs

They reuse entire character pngs constantly

[next bobcat]

Except the witness one which was actually really good

[ember storm]

The backstory of Zavala and his dead son uses a fanmade ghost render png

[next bobcat]

damn

[eager trout]

What did the Witness plan to do after winning?

[sleek matrix]

Probably just chill

There wouldn't be anything left at all

No future or past just stillness

[slow berry]

I always associated its intended final shape to be what it says on the tin: to bear witness.

If you subscribe to the idea that nothing exists until someone or something else perceives it, then to enact the final shape without effectively destroying the universe, you'd need one final entity to verify its existence.

[eager trout]

I guess that makes sense

Also, is Xur humble or being held at gunpoint?

[next bobcat]

A bit of both I think

Star horse does some weird stuff and controls him

[slow berry]

His will is not his own.

[ember storm]

He enjoys his time with dares but his duty as an agent of the nine is purely just a duty

[next bobcat]

Yeah that is true

[fresh zephyr]

well hydras are kind of like big central nodes or brains to an operation

meaning they would make great leaders due to how they process lots of data

[empty fern]

Im gonna read into the vex too much and write a one pager

[fresh zephyr]

good luck

[strong tendon]

But there are statues of him where he doesn’t have a tormentor body

I think there’s one literally in the entrance of root of nightmares where he’s depicted as being a thin being with a robe

[eager trout]

Any Witness apologists?

[ember storm]

Yeah?

He’s different from the statue depicting his idealized self because he’s naked

[strong tendon]

So Nezarec has body dysmorphia?

[slim girder]

No the way we see him in RoN is just because we was forcefully brought back by the travelers beam.
If he was properly brought back and everything then he wouldn't look anywhere near what he does

[strong tendon]

Then how are tormentors bulky but his original build wasn’t

[slim girder]

Tormentors are definitely not bulky except for their shoulders. If you look you can see a tormentors body is actually pretty slim

Compared to nezarec who looks like he's about to explode

[strong tendon]

Nah even after the shoulders explode they’re still bulky

[fresh zephyr]

what?

[ember storm]

Thermal lances are a real life tool that wyvern weapons could be referencing

Like Minotaurs have torch hammers

[fresh zephyr]

oh

makes sense

I still think that the wings of wyverns are to protect other frames

[dim minnow]

according to failsafe, the wings are meant to keep balance and to propel them forwards at high speeds

[ember storm]

That kinda doesn’t work when they’re all shorter than the wings

[fresh zephyr]

the wings themselves act as part of the shield

along with their giant frames

[fresh zephyr]

right

perhaps when calus said that the vex are sending their more powerful units, he meant their demolition units

farmers and construction workers have many tools, but only some of the tools can kill good

what do you think the wyvern would be clasified as?

[dim minnow]

perhaps the Wyverns are meant to act as a unit sent into unfamiliar/hostile terrain

hence why we first saw them as part of a legit Vex invasion force on Europa

[fresh zephyr]

right

when I think about how they rise in the air to slam down on the ground, I can easily visualize and think about them doing that to get around

other than teleporting

[solemn urchin]

If a guardian died during the Red War but their ghost managed to survive, would their ghost be able to rez them once they regained their connection to the traveler?

[trim grotto]

The topic is somewhat contended, but most evidence suggests they could not.

A modern example of this would be the Ghost trap employed by the Psion Conclave in an attempt to assassinate Commander Zavala.

[jagged badge]

Isn’t there lore about Guardians who died in the Crucible right as the Traveler was caged?

[uneven mulch]

how did shaw hans fireteam die to a hive witch but we're mass murdering country level+ threats for a weapon called the witness's unibrow

[trim grotto]

Have you ever done that GM? She's tanky as hell.

[jagged badge]

Because lore and gameplay are not always 1:1

Navôta is supposed to be a powerful threat

[uneven mulch]

true but like we're more powerful lorewise right?

spamming supers

[jagged badge]

Not really

Gameplay honestly portrays us as way more powerful sometimes

[uneven mulch]

damn really?

[jagged badge]

But sometimes lore demonstrates feats of Guardians we can’t do in game

It varies

[uneven mulch]

didnt shaxx punch someones head off

an iron lord i think?

[strong tendon]

Can’t guardians in lore just switch between the elements at will? Or was that just Osiris? I swear like he killed Crotas grandchildren on the moon by chaining dawnblade, stormtrance and nova bomb one after the other before he lost his light to xivu.

[trim grotto]

Backhanded Lord Felwinter's head off.

[trim grotto]

Osiris was one of the strongest Warlocks in history.

Many Guardians are still mastering their elements,

[jagged badge]

That takes a lot of training and discipline. Consider that the average Guardian is still learning one subclass

Let alone multiple

[uneven mulch]

also whats our character's canon class and subclass

[trim grotto]

That isn't a thing.

[uneven mulch]

oh

[strong tendon]

We had any instances of a guardian switching between strand and stasis at will or are the rules different for darkness powers?

[trim grotto]

We have not, but Strand is also still quite new.

We actually have had very very few instances of any Guardian switching between any element in an active battle.

Osiris is the exception.

[jagged badge]

Yeah the Guardian doesn’t have a canon anything other than the name Guardian and a Ghost called Ghost

No canon race, gender, class, favoured subclass, etc.

[uneven mulch]

oh

also is the next expansion called apollo or frontiers

[jagged badge]

Neither technically

[uneven mulch]

oh?

[jagged badge]

Frontiers is the codename for the whole next year of Destiny, and Apollo is the codename for the first expansion of Frontiers

[strong tendon]

Heresy is the end of the light and darkness saga and codename Apollo is the beginning of something new

[uneven mulch]

oooohh

what are yalls theories on next saga

[strong tendon]

Probably a mixture of dealing with more echoes (probably ones that are even more powerful than the ones we’ve seen in the episodes) , exploring planets outside our solar system and then there’s the winnower

Also xivu arath and maya sundaresh and her choral vex are still threats

Yirix and the dread

Something will want to fill the power vacuum the witness left

(I personally would love for it to be nezarec so he can be done right this time, not like the blunders that were plunder, lightfall and revenant)

[uneven mulch]

nezarec's in revenant?

[trim grotto]

Yes.

[uneven mulch]

when?

[trim grotto]

Pretty much the entire thing.

[uneven mulch]

did I miss something

[trim grotto]

Uh, yeah. Literally half the entire story.

[uneven mulch]

huh

am I that dumb?

[trim grotto]

Okay, what do you remember of the story of Revenant?

[uneven mulch]

uhh

[trim grotto]

Fikrul was back, and...

[uneven mulch]

so mithrax is sick and fikruls back and he ressurected alot of scorn like skolas and the forsaken guys

eido wants our help then we free eramis

[trim grotto]

Right. Why was Mithrax sick? And what was it doing to him?

[uneven mulch]

mithrax is turning into this bad guy

[trim grotto]

Yes. Nearly there.

[uneven mulch]

like zombie or something idk

[trim grotto]

Not a zombie, but similarly skilled in returning from death.

[uneven mulch]

scorn

[trim grotto]

Nezarec.

[uneven mulch]

oh

[strong tendon]

They literally say what it is about a million times in the story

[uneven mulch]

people can turn into nezarec?

im not that into the lore

[trim grotto]

It isn't lore, it was explicitly stated.

One moment.

[jagged badge]

Mithrax had directly interacted with Nezarec’s essence when he used it to bring Osiris back from his coma

[trim grotto]

https://youtu.be/eAIpmG9-iLs?si=5QxFAyCgz0QzXN0O

[uneven mulch]

i started playing during revenant

[trim grotto]

When we found the relics of Nezarec, while Osiris was comatose, Mithrax helped distill them, cleanse them, and used them to wake Osiris.

Yes, I'm giving you the backstory.

This saved Osiris and woke him, but Mithrax took this curse within himself. It has festered ever since, finally coming to a head in Revenant.

His change in attitude, his aggressive outbursts, were the result of Nezarec's slowly growing possession.

That's what you saw throughout the Episode.

[strong tendon]

Then he got expelled by Eramis using the echo. And I hated that. So much.

[trim grotto]

'tis what 'tis

[strong tendon]

So what exactly is the power of the echo of Riis? The echo of command obviously commands.

[low gyro]

Was it being "expelled"? I thought misraaks said that nez will always be dormant somewhere inside him

[trim grotto]

It wasn't precisely defined in the same way that Command was. It, like Command, does seem connected to mind and memory. Something more like... independence. I don't think it's the embodiment of a single force, but rather, it has personality and a sense of self.

It sings of the Riis, it remembers it. It is malleable power, but with form and feeling.

[strong tendon]

Oh okay

It could just be the power to alter ether I guess? I mean fikrul used it to taint ether into dark ether, Eramis used it to stop nezarec inside Mithrax (which could also be linked to his ether?) idk.

[lofty badge]

she could mabye have used it to cure the Revenant scorn, of course i think Eido might be able to do that with her tonics and such but it likly would have gone much faster if the echo could have turned them back into fallen

[jagged badge]

The characters address this

They don’t want to risk the Echo falling into the wrong hands again and potentially causing a whole other outbreak of Revenant Scorn

So Eramis is doing what the Echo wants (and what she wants), and that’s rebuilding an independent home for the Eliksni

[mental meadow]

How does the echo have wants

Is it sentient?

[jagged badge]

Yeah. The episode’s story establishes this

In Act 2, Variks notes that the Echo sits uneasily in Fikrul’s grasp and seeks another wielder

[slim girder]

The voice inside it.
The echo from the first episode also had this and spoke to maya as she was wearing the echo.
And the new echo we have yet to see what or whose memory is inside it.

Could be something related to oryx I think

[eager trout]

Ah yes, the Guardian named Guardian has a Ghost called Ghost.

[jagged badge]

Tyra Karn’s Ghost is also just Ghost

[sick yew]

Theres also a Guardian name Ghost

@eager trout from the Tommys Matchbook loretab

[slim girder]

Ikora i feel has done it the most. Which makes sense given how much she's trained in the use of those elements.
She's definitely a voidwalker at heart though.

[eager trout]

Now we need a Ghost called Guardian

[mental meadow]

I always assumed tommy was a guardian tbf

[sick yew]

Would be funny if they just flat out lied to Aunor

[fresh zephyr]

The Pale Heart is endless right?

Since it’s memory

So theoretically we could have the Dreadnaught inside the Pale Heart

;))

[ember storm]

not anymore

[strong tendon]

Why not anymore?

[slow berry]

Probably more fitting for #🏆destiny-media

[fresh zephyr]

ok ill post it there instead

[uneven canyon]

Someone said Ghosts can block out feelings of hunger. Is that true?

[paper gorge]

who controls the dire taken ?

[spiral sorrel]

Dont tell drifter that

[empty fern]

Probably the first blade at the moment?

[strong tendon]

Is it’s will strong enough? It’s been pretty implied that it (being half taken itself) was directed to kill eris

[empty fern]

Idk, something something, shard, something something oryx ghost, and future acts

[strong tendon]

Shard?

Also i think the oryx ghost would be against the subjugator being the new “taken king” due to sword logic

Like oryx is more stubborn on the sword logic than even xivu is

[empty fern]

The anomaly object

[empty fern]

Oryx would rather be dead rn, who knows

[slim girder]

Not really. His logic dictates that you must always become sharper by any means and that includes by killing him.
He even made a contingency that whoever killed him should then use him as their weapon to continue to enact the sword logic.

[eager trout]

What happened first, Duality or Presage?

[jagged badge]

Presage

Presage was during Season of the Chosen

We began to find out the mystery of Calus going missing and the experiments he did on the Glykon in order to commune with the Darkness

Season of the Haunted, which Duality takes place in, is Calus stepping out of the shadows and revealing himself and his plan to become a Disciple

[eager trout]

Ok, thanks

[ember storm]

He specifically asked it not to do so which is why he starved over and over

[spiral sorrel]

what a wacky boy

[ember storm]

Just a good old bundle of trauma wrapped in an exterior that probably smells like a wet dog

[spiral sorrel]

or a wet rat

Love how drifter was suprised by eris's apartment as if he doesnt live in a strange egregore rock he got from mystery space gods

[slow berry]

Is there any reason why Lord of Wolves has both a House of Kings mark under the sights and a House of Devils mark on the side? Leaving aside that it's named after the House of Wolves on top of that.

[dim minnow]

Lord of Wolves was a modified Shrapnel Launcher that Jolyon made

chances are he used parts from multiple Shrapnel Launchers that came from various houses

also worth noting that the Kings were practically ruling the Devils back then

as for the name, Jolyon gave it that name specifically because he wanted the weapon to be used to commit hate crimes towards the House of Wolves

[empty fern]

Real

[ember storm]

I mean I feel like a gun that shoots molten shrapnel violated the Geneva Conventions anyway

[slim elk]

Geneva suggestions you mean

[slow berry]

Yeah, that makes sense

[eager trout]

I think I get it now

Vex can time travel but they can't alter the past because since they can't simulate paracausality, they can't alter the past without having their actions undone by time travel rules

Since paracausality would allow them to have an effect without the cause, and vice-versa

Btw, what are the Vex Precursors and Descendants?

[strong tendon]

I thought precursors were vex from the past and descendants from the future

[round gale]

Could someone take a second to explain this day and light collection cash grab or is it just a cash grab not worth getting 🤔 also what is Herecy i keep seeing on my store but I open destiny in store there's no herecy pack or I'm I just wrong kn thinking irs a pack?

Stuff wrong chat godam

[bright stream]

what is fikruls echo? just rising scorn?

[trim grotto]

The Echo of Riis? It rather hated being used for Scorn, that's why it abandoned him and chose Eramis.

[bright stream]

damn i shoulda said i was still in act 2

[trim grotto]

...yes, I imagine that would have been a good idea.

[bright stream]

all good lmao gives me motivation to omplete it

damn thats rlly bugging me tho

[fresh zephyr]

I want to live honoring cayde

[trim grotto]

Pardon?

[fresh zephyr]

I don't know I just want to honor cayde as a hunter

[trim grotto]

Well, respecting his last wishes and helping out Crow would surely make him proud.

[fresh zephyr]

True

And with the witness gone we don't have to worry about the final shape entirely

[strong tendon]

I saw an interesting comment. How come a tormentor (who wields void) is ripped into two and becomes a strand and stasis wielding subjugator

Also sort of related but not really

How come literally the MOMENT we discovered strand the enemies all started being able to use it

[dim minnow]

they saw us using it and thought "oh shit, we gotta do that"

but what really seemed to be what happened was that the Witness took notice of us using Strand

back in Lightfall

and chances are it learned how it works from us which it then applied to its Harbingers and Weavers

as for the Tormentor thing

[strong tendon]

But like the witness didn’t know about strand right? And it created harbingers and weavers. And I thought strand required the wielder to “go with the flow” and “let go” (which the witness famously can not do either of those things)

[dim minnow]

the Witness completely reshaped the Tormentor using the Darkness it wielded with the Light it took from the Traveler

[dim minnow]

not until it saw us use it in Lightfall

and the Witness is the master of Darkness so I'd think it would be able to get a pretty good grip on how it functions

especially with the Traveler in its grasp

[strong tendon]

Master of darkness yet we discovered strand before it lol

[slim elk]

Give it some credit
Neomuna literally had strand sitting in their streets and they didnt know a thing about it lol

[strong tendon]

Yeah but the neomuni people aren’t masters of darkness

They’re not paracausal at all

THE VOICE IN THE DARKNESS didn’t know about a darkness power until we discovered it

[slow berry]

theres obviously some gameplay-story segregation going on tbf

There's also a lot the Witness doesn't know, and while it used the darkness, it wasn't the darkness

If you subscribe to the idea that Nezarec harnessed a third darkness power, that's also something the Witness could not use that someone else could

[slim elk]

That, and Lightfall is infamous for its poor writing

Because even back then you had random strand shields

[slow berry]

And the precursors were originally raised by the Light, not the darkness

[dim minnow]

also, the Witness seemed to be very familiar with Stasis, but we never see it use it

[strong tendon]

I was about to say. The witness and its disciples don’t seem to use stasis or strand. At all

It’s just resonance (which is funny because in game it’s solar damage which is light lol)

And obviously nezarec with void

Another. Light element

[eager trout]

It's because Strand specifically required the Veil to manifest in a tangible enough form to know it exists, which the Witness didn't have.

[slow berry]

It seems plausible Guardians are the only ones interested in actually mastering these forces, the Witness doesn't need to master them as much as it just needs to use them as weapons, which doesn't take that much effort when you've got the type of power it does anyway

Why master Nightmares when you can just upend a planet's gravity and send your nightmare cat if you need it for whatever reason etc.

[strong tendon]

True

[slim girder]

Should also be stated resonance isn't a darkness element. It's the equivalent of Siva.
It's more tied to physical tech from the pyramid ships. Like if resonance is involved it's always to do with opening doors or passing through barriers.
It can be used as a weapon but again it's not a paracausal energy of sorts like light or dark.

[strong tendon]

Oh really?

[dim minnow]

ehhhhh

Resonance is seen as a Dark counterpart to Terraformation (the Traveler's ability)

[eager trout]

The Witness already seems to do things that can be done with Stasis and Strand, but extremely refined. Like, the cutting thing is basically strand on the smallest level

[slim girder]

Resonance is the equivalent of a door opening for you but not others. Because you "resonate" with it. Like instead of having an Id card what if the door already knew who you were

[ember storm]

Fear not the man who practiced 100 moves but the man who practiced one 100 times, or something

[dim minnow]

I like to theorize that Resonance is a destructive form of Light, but Resonance is far too associated with Darkness

[ember storm]

No particular reason for the witness to personally dabble in other powers when it can just do what it does

Salami

[strong tendon]

Can’t now. It ded

[ember storm]

Do you think the echoes taste like a weird smoothie

[strong tendon]

I think they probably taste of battery acid

[ember storm]

Does that taste good

[wet trail]

maybe

[slim girder]

At first glance it definitely is but my theory is that it really is just the tech the precursors/witness used.
It is a foreign technology similar to our Siva or the "speed metal" of the cloudstriders.

[strong tendon]

Well. No. But also yes

But it’s toxic so do not bite batteries kids

[eager trout]

Could be Precursor tech enhanced by Darkness

[wet trail]

gain the immunity by biting multiple times

[slim girder]

Probably

[dim minnow]

it is worth noting that Pyramids seem to be able to terraform

[eager trout]

Speaking of which, what if it was the Veil that terraformed Neptune?

[strong tendon]

They can?

[eager trout]

That may explain why the Pyramid symbol seems to be shown as the Darkness equivalent to the Traveler in Rhulk's Pyramid

[ember storm]

Well they sorta just do the opposite of what the traveler does and then “cut down” on the natural elements

[ember storm]

Eh well I think they just hadn’t come up with the veil yet

The dlc prior they had ghost say that pyramids were “beings like the traveler in nature”

[eager trout]

Could still be true, though

[dim minnow]

terraforming but in a destructive way

a way opposite to the Traveler

[strong tendon]

Would we have gotten the veil if lightfall went ahead as planned? Or was it a very last minute addition to the lore?

[eager trout]

The Witness had found the Veil before, so it could have altered the pyramids using the Veil

[dim minnow]

it was being built up to during the WQ year

[ember storm]

Weren’t the pyramids only made after

[eager trout]

Also, wasn't there a Vex simulation that showed the Veil?

[dim minnow]

that was Asher Mir's doing

[strong tendon]

But that’s only because lightfall got changed right?

[ember storm]

Him showing us was

[plain topaz]

How can the scorn see with the helmet over their heads, and the ravagers don’t even have heads so how do they see.(im talking about the normal scorn, i know the revenant scorn helmets have eye holes)

[ember storm]

But the vex tried to bootleg the veil

That’s what the pale heart was

[dim minnow]

using Vex computational power, he managed to simulate the Veil

[ember storm]

They’re zombies

[strong tendon]

I don’t remember any veil hints until plunder

[ember storm]

They don’t really

They just

[plain topaz]

Thats a good point

[ember storm]

Do

[plain topaz]

Just primal instinct i guess

[eager trout]

You mean the Black Heart?

[ember storm]

That was the end result

Pretty shitty job honestly

Looks nothing like it

[strong tendon]

I remember theorising what lightfall could look like back when it got announced and I was WAY OFF

[dim minnow]

in the Parasite quest, Savathun's worm told us that Savathun did something during the collapse that helped save the Traveler

[dim minnow]

to be fair there was a huge tonal difference between its initial reveal and the full reveal

then season of the Risen had Lucent Brood planning on taking over the Moon for an undisclosed reason

then the very next season the Leviathan shows up on the Moon to commune with Nezarec's Pyramid

then we get Plunder

[strong tendon]

Yeah I was expecting like. The pyramids and the hive (lead by xivu) to attack the last city and the traveller. I even sketched xivu like plunging her sword into the traveller and cracking it like an egg.

[dim minnow]

the final mission of Haunted hints that it belonged to Nezarec since the area we fight Calus in was a "chantry" to "the darkest hour" which was Nezarec

[ember storm]

Discovering the lunar pyramid must’ve been so funny

Like the cutscene pictures it like a really strange and otherworldly thing

[strong tendon]

And the nezarecs whisper glaive

[ember storm]

Then the fallen just like butcher the weird alien body and start pawning the pieces

[strong tendon]

Was that his glaive btw? Like the one Rhulk gifted him?

[ember storm]

Like imagine you spend decades trying to find your god who abandoned you and then you find something like this

[dim minnow]

maybe, but it isn't the weapons he's seen with

[ember storm]

So where did his rake in RoN come from

Was he buried with it

Did it grow from his body

[strong tendon]

Yeah it’s like a ceremonial thing right? Like a formality

[sick yew]

Why he so tiny

[vapid nebula]

What does the Barrow Dyad lore mean and why does he pick up the knife 3 times?

[sick yew]

Havent actually read that one

Lets see

Oh wait thats the one about the boss who got split between taken and real

And communes with someone

[slim girder]

It's the weapon itself saying that

Bungie said that the weapon is sentient during a Livestream

[sick yew]

Dyad is sentient too?

Damn we getting a lot of thinking guns these past few episodes

[slim girder]

Our objective during that mission was to find a new source of power and get to it first. And in the lore this weapon calls itself "your objective"

[sick yew]

Gotta admit I dont have time to read subtitles and shoot gun at the same time so I am a bit more out of the loop this season

[slim girder]

Also side note if you look closely the gun it's moving and even the exotic perk sounds like what an animal does to defend itself

Panic response

[sick yew]

I havent actually used it proper yet
Gonna give it a shot one of these days

[vapid nebula]

ok so we are literally taking a knife to a gun fight

[sick yew]

I mean Hunters tend to do that

[vapid nebula]

the rest of its lore is still confusing

[sick yew]

Its a rather cryptic tab tbf

Bungie loves those

[vapid nebula]

rip...

[slim girder]

When something is called a knife this doesn't actually mean a physical knife.
In future if you hear the word knife in Destiny note that it's more a metaphor for making something or someone sharper as is the way of the sword logic.

There's missing context to it that we have yet to fully understand

[sick yew]

"Knife" is indeed used in a lot of ways

We were Eris' "knife" when she was being a hive god

Theres the "First Knife" and expression the Witness used a lot

[slim girder]

It's why when you complete the exotic mission you get something called the coalescence of the [knife]

It's in brackets so that means that that word is the way we interpret it

[sick yew]

And yeah ofc the knife can be a synonyme for sword which the hive love to tell you about

[slim girder]

The taken subjugator we're fighting calls itself the resonant knife

[sick yew]

That one probably relates back to the Witness/Winnower again yeah

[sick yew]

On the topic of the first knife
Didnt know it was mentioned as early as Unveiling

[sick yew]

Alright folks im kinda bored

Recommend me some lorebooks

[trim grotto]

Ghost Stories is always a classic

[sick yew]

I have read that one before

Off the top of my head I read Ghost Stories, Most Loyal (my beloved), K1 records, Braytech confidentials and uuuh the Arrivals one

Oh yean and final days of god knows what their name was (the Golden Age Titan lorebook)

[trim grotto]

How about the Marasenna? And the mostly-sequel, Awoken of the Reef?

[sick yew]

idgaf about the Awoken

Im making this very difficult I know

[trim grotto]

Well, there's... Clovis Bray's Logbook, Part 1 & 2. Origins of the Vex and Exo and looking at Clovis's very healthy mental state

[sick yew]

I think I heard snippets of that one in a byf vid years ago but that does sound good

Beyond Light timeframe I presume it came out

[trim grotto]

It was the BL CE, actually

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tmu9sjYV7c6X1NhRQmOxkj_o7IJ4ZRcifbm49MNr12s/edit?tab=t.0
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/clovis-brays-logbook-missing-pages

It's a two parter

The Google Doc is part 1

[sick yew]

ooooh its the collectors edition stuff

Eh sure why not

I was scrolling through Ishtar just now

[slim girder]

Truth to power. But try reading every pathway of it.

[sick yew]

Ah yes the biggest prank Savathun pulled

@trim grotto first question right out of the go
Didnt the shit with the K1 crew happen basically alongside of the Collapse?

[trim grotto]

The end of it was

But this was way before that

[sick yew]

But didnt they only dig up the artifact right then?

[trim grotto]

No they were studying it for a while

[sick yew]

Oh

Yeah maybe i should actually reread the k1 book

I read that shit fucking years ago

Also Clovis asking his ai assistant for a good present for Elsie might be a bit too on the nose considering the state of Ai these days

Bungie writer number 25 was cookning back then

[trim grotto]

5 years ago haha yeah

[sick yew]

5 fucking years already

@trim grotto "ICoV" is Ishtar Collective on Venus ye?

[trim grotto]

uuh probably
he talks about it a lot
what's the context

[trim grotto]

ah yeah Duane is one of the 226

227, sorry

[sick yew]

Whats the "trick" hes referring to?

[trim grotto]

Probably something related to the Vex.

[sick yew]

I see

Btw i think I should know this but what does Clovis actually have

Like whats that illness that bro needs basically every organ swapped out every few days

[trim grotto]

A form of prion disease, if I recall.

[dense pike]

southernr3bel has been banned!

[sick yew]

Nothing to see here

Move along citizens

[jagged badge]

Actually I think Clovis is just old as shit and it’s his son/Elsie that had the prion disease due to his genetic meddling with Clovis II?

I remember thinking Clovis I had it too but I swear I recall someone pointing out it doesn’t actually say that

[sick yew]

So his organs and by extension body are just failing constantly cause of old age

[jagged badge]

Maybe

And he just refuses to be ‘tainted’ with anyone else’s genetics so instead of getting normal, healthy transplants, he just clones his own failing organs to replace over and over

That’s how I understood it when I read it, at least

[sick yew]

Thats what it sounds like yeah

I cant imagine a pig mixed with an ill humans dna to produce the most insane quality of organs either

"Competitive Immortality"
Fuck this casual shit fellas we going ranked

[blazing wasp]

pacasual? noob, im more of a paracompetitive guy myself

[sick yew]

Hm

Ishtar didnt do anything Exo related did they?

[trim grotto]

Honestly, it was probably a misunderstanding of the 227 scenario.

[sick yew]

Got no clue what that is homie
Gotta help me out here

[trim grotto]

You know, Maya Sundaresh and her team being simulated 227 times by the Vex and released into the network.

From whence came the Conductor

[sick yew]

Oh that

That was a known event?

[trim grotto]

Possibly

[sick yew]

What if it relates to Vex portals technology instead?

Thatd allign with Ishtars stuff much closer

@trim grotto why

[trim grotto]

why what

[sick yew]

20 years

Why did the Witness I presume send Clarity to Europa 20 years prior

[trim grotto]

Took 'em a while to find the Anomaly I suppose
Witness likes its long laid plans to fuck around the Traveler's garden

[sick yew]

So the Witness knew that the Traveler would head for Sol?

And I guess planted shit in anticipation?

[trim grotto]

Clarity Control would have arrived after the Golden Age began

[sick yew]

Huh? The Traveler was in sol for 20 years before they even build the Europa Braytech institution?

I thought the Golden Age was a lot shorter than that idk

[trim grotto]

Exo were relatively late in the Golden Age and the Age itself likely lasted at least a century

[sick yew]

Oh wow

@trim grotto sterile neutrenos? Isnt that related to Taken aswell

I know that because there was a ghost voiceline back during the contact event in arrivals where he goes "Sterile Neutrenos?....taken, on the bank!"

I heard that shit a billion times

[trim grotto]

Usually, yes. In this case, it's just regarding...

This

Clarity Control

'Member the DSC?

[sick yew]

Yeah I know that thats Clarity Control

[fluid peak]

Because the traveller was there and the witness seems to like turning formerly blessed races into disciples

[sick yew]

But I am confused they mention a substance thats also associated with the Taken in some way

Wheres the corelation between the two

Clovis says those neutrinos have something to do with the early expansion of the universe so why do Taken also inherit that shit?

[trim grotto]

It might have appeared from the Ascendant Plane.

[sick yew]

Or is it just "cause darkness lmao"

[sick yew]

oooooo

Yeah that makes a ton of sense actually

I think

[blazing wasp]

also mentioned by drifter during nether

[sick yew]

Yeah it is mentioned quite a bit

Heres a random question
Were Wish Dragons already in Sol during the golden age?

or did they only show up post collapse

[trim grotto]

They showed up post Collapse

Thankfully

[sick yew]

So theyre not originally from Sol

Do we know their origins?

[trim grotto]

No, but they've showed up all over the shop. Even Calus had a bone when he was Emperor.

[lofty badge]

think the dead Wish dragons regert showing up in sol in the first place since guardians hunted them to near extinction?

[sick yew]

Interesting

[trim grotto]

Not all of them. Many got exactly what they wanted.

[lofty badge]

death while fucking over others with their wish magic?

[trim grotto]

Death is not the end to an Ahamkara and now their bones are spread across the civilisation of power hungry Lightbearers

[lofty badge]

truee

do they exist in several planes or can they revive themsevles?

or both?

i do know Riven's ghost is a thing

[trim grotto]

Mara Sov did call back Riven's spirit, but mostly they exist in their bones. They don't revive, but many Ahamkara actually want to be reduced to bone. It is more "real" to them.

Particularly given our bone wearing habits

[lofty badge]

ah okay

[sick yew]

@jagged badge seems y ou were right

At least in the sense that the illness Clovis has is different from that his Son, Elsie and so on have

[jagged badge]

Yea

[sick yew]

I think he would include himself in this if he really had the same thing

Clovis is such a maniac its insane

I do wonder what happens to that Orbital Platform
Surely Guardians would possibly be involved with that many many hundreds of years later

@trim grotto I again ask...why?
I never quite got why the Witness wanted Clovis to build a Vex portal

Or were they actually keen on trying to help him solve the Exo problem

[trim grotto]

Now see for this one you'll want to just keep reading

Can't spoil the surprise

[sick yew]

Oh really that gets explained? Nvm

@trim grotto actually from who are the handwritten notes

Do we know?

At first I thought it was additional scribbles by Clovis but it doesnt seem so anymore

[trim grotto]

It was additional scribbles by Clovis

Keep reading you goober

[sick yew]

Ah

[sick yew]

Homie I suck at "keep reading" I gotta put me thoughts down

[sick yew]

Okay the Vex casually refueling suns 200 times the size of our Sun is kinda insane I fucking love the vex

[blazing wasp]

A single photon to crawl from the core to the surface, two million years

is... is this saying the suns radius is two fucking million lightyears

[sick yew]

This is right after the research team (and Clovis using a proxy) went through the Vex portal they constructed on Europa
They noted the place they were standing on had rock that was 13 billion years old putting it at an extremely early point of the universes lifespan
Except in the sky there was a gigantic supernova that should not be there as at that size it had a lifespan of just 2 million years but it was fully oprational and spitting out metals

[blazing wasp]

ah

the wording is just weird

[sick yew]

Yeah theres additional context in the paragraphs above

Also ayo?

Tf is Maya doing with Braytech on Europa?

Shouldnt she be hanging out with the Ishtar gang or prepping for the Exodus ship that would eventually land on Neptune

[trim grotto]

[slim girder]

Braytech and ishtar often had dealings in the name of science.
Not always ethical though.

Ishtar had vex tech and braytech had exo knowledge.

So both had a lot of knowledge to gain from their fields

[sick yew]

True but

1. I doubt Clovis would refer to an Ishtar member as "one of my scientist"
2. Clovis had previously caused some shit at Ishtar on Venus to steal Vex tech to build said portal

Tbf I dont think Ishtar knew that it was Bray who caused the stuff but still

Doubt Clovis would cooperate with them on something as important to him as this

[slim girder]

Clovis is a narcissist. He absolutely would refer to another scientist as one of his even if it wasn't the case.
Clovis could not care less about causing any crap because again he is a narcissist. He will do anything to forward something he's got his mind on in the name of progress.

Even if it means cooperating. He wouldn't think twice if got the result he wanted

[sick yew]

Hes too scared of his research falling into any hands that arent his own

He also doesnt know Maya considering the way he refers to her

She might just be a spy

Also Clovis referring to radiolaria as "Vex Milk" is very funny for some reason

[slim girder]

Maya and Clovis are always doing shady shit. If they met in the current events of the game it'd probably turn into the most annoying thing ever since they're both immortal in a way.

[sick yew]

Clovis is immortal until I walk into his room with a bucket of water

And tbf they would probably hate each other anyway

[slim girder]

That's what I mean by annoying. They wouldn't stop arguing

[sick yew]

Good, that way we can relax and just sit back

[ember storm]

[sick yew]

Damn this is actually kind of a neat way the Vex function

Vex memes?!

[blazing wasp]

Memetics you goblin (/s)

[sick yew]

Memes Uke, the DNA of the soul

[blazing wasp]

Playing this after my SCP phase made it make sense and I think I missed out on the hilarity of it

[slim girder]

I had an SCP phase as well.

Lots of that stuff is a really good read

[sick yew]

SCP? I prefer the high society variant House of Leaves

[eager trout]

So this is why they can't do anything against paracausality, because it's like having heat without fire or fire without heat. Though I don't get what that means, how do they use the fire's own heat to put it out?

[sick yew]

Its both more complicated and simpler
The Vex are inherently based on the laws of the universe because thats what makes them think
We or rather our paracausality, define that very fundamentals they work with

We are a variable they cannot calculate

We are division by zero

We are the utter chaos thats impossible to predict

[sleek matrix]

Its actually simple we bypass the laws of physics and the universe in general

Vex can't simulate that

[sick yew]

Thats what I said yeah

I just made it sound cooler

@trim grotto tf happened on Pluto?

[eager trout]

Got demoted from planet

[vivid dew]

when are the nine going to be important again

they are so mysterious

but the witness is no more now so thats where we could go

[dapper moss]

dares was relatively recently so probably not for a while

[frigid sparrow]

Judging by the fact that we're dealing with taken, Drifter is a major character, and so far we've been getting weekly stuff from the nine? Might not be far away, actually

I don't think they'll have too direct an involvement, maybe something to do with an epilogue or a future activity

[trim grotto]

We have absolutely no idea

[sick yew]

Aw

[eager trout]

Clovis pulled a billionaire move and hid his shady dealings very well

[bright stream]

why do variks and eramis not like eachother again? kinda forgot what happened in beyond light. Im in act 3 of ep 2 no spoilers pls

[sick yew]

Variks used to be the Warden of the Prison of Elders

Where a shit load of Eliksni were imprisoned too

Hes seen as a traitor to his race by a lot of Eliksni because he joined forces with the Awoken

And afaik he also tortured other Eliksni in the Prison and shit

And ig he also betrayed Eramis lateron on Europa again

[bright stream]

mm ok

[trim grotto]

Plus he disagreed with her siding with the Pyramids and Darkness, given that they caused the Whirlwind and destroyed Riis

And he betrayed her in BL and aided House Light and called us in

[bright stream]

ok thanks

[ember storm]

She also tore off his arm

That’s a thing

[slim elk]

In Beyond Light itself he even goes as far to break Character (his chittering act) to scream at Eramis for unleashing the Vex on Riis Reborn

[strong tendon]

Oh yeah because the way he talks is just an act to look weak and vulnerable

[slim elk]

Should have thrown the Echo his way

He even already uses a staff

[eager trout]

Destiny from the perspective of Cayde must be weird

He dies to a traitor during a prison break (normal stuff)

Then he comes back and has to help fight what is essentially the Devil

[slim elk]

Sees Crow
"Damn it Uldren got away."

Sees Glint
"Oh.. never mind."

[uneven mulch]

is there something more powerful than the traveller

[jagged badge]

That’s sorta relative

Powerful how?

The Traveler is the origin of Light. It is a raw and unparalleled force of creation. But it was able to be easily subjugated by the Witness