📚lore-discussion

[uneven mulch]

also how did she put the 3rd eye? cut her forehead?

[jagged badge]

She’s human

[slim girder]

yes

[uneven mulch]

duality of destiny lore

[ember storm]

she's human

just very pale

[slim girder]

She used an ahamkara bone to give her sight to get our of the hellmouth. This involed stealing an acolytes eyes

[ember storm]

it just removed her eyes

she manually took hive ones to replace them

the jar of hive eyes in her apartment also sorta implies they have a sort of battery life and need to be regularly replaced

[versed orbit]

what the fuck

[slim girder]

Then why does she refer to mara as "my queen" and even maras has called eris "my hidden friend". That just screams awoken customary to me

[ember storm]

because they are actually just friends

and eris was vital to mara's throne world

and the whole taken king plotline

she's not actually awoken in any capacity

awoken have distinctly blue skin and the unique markings, of which eris has neither

she's just pale

[slim girder]

Well the exposure she's had could definitely change her skin colour from blue to the pale white we see her with. I wouldn't put that past her as she's one of a kind.

[ember storm]

their skin also naturally glows and eris' doesnt

[slim girder]

I don't deny she's not human but still i haven't seen any proper confrmation and given the formalities to mara

[ember storm]

[slim girder]

Nvm i take back my statement

Seems she's human but understands things more like the awoken

[jagged badge]

Eris is a member of the Hidden

[uneven mulch]

still dont understand how the third eye works

im just acoustic

[lofty badge]

it works the same as the two regular eyes

hive have three eyes normaly

just like how fallen have four eyes

[jagged badge]

Worth noting that Eris is apparently blind, to whatever degree

[lofty badge]

she is?

huh

[sick yew]

Shes shooting quite sharp for that ngl

[lofty badge]

yeah she can see pretty well for someone who is apparently blind

[jagged badge]

She has dialogue about it but honestly it could be an inconsistency or it could be a magic thing

Daredevil or Toph style haha

[lofty badge]

yeah could be she can see via magic just like how a blind jedi can use the force to see

[jagged badge]

[trim grotto]

No.

[lofty badge]

Eris is like Human/ alittle bit of hive

species wise

[uneven mulch]

hive magic=the force

[lofty badge]

not in the same way

hive magic is hive magic

[ember storm]

Happens when the eyes dry out

[raw hazel]

https://tenor.com/view/peter-griffin-perhaps-family-guy-thinking-gif-13587558

[lofty badge]

no she is clearly a Exo

[jagged badge]

https://tenor.com/view/lil-yachty-drake-laptop-duh-gif-8033838636860661307

[warm acorn]

Was she always part hive or did she become part hive after crota

[river belfry]

hey, how did the drifter got rezzed in the intro?

[blazing wasp]

After she tried to take on crota with her fireteam, she lost her eyes due to some wish magic stuff, so she joinked some acolyte eyes

[blazing wasp]

Via his ghost?

Guardians can revive post-mortem via their ghosts

[river belfry]

isnt his ghost death?

[warm acorn]

Wait so she scooped out an acolytes eyes and put them on her face?

[blazing wasp]

No

[blazing wasp]

More or less afaik

Since she kinda lost hers.

[river belfry]

ohh gotcha

[warm acorn]

That’s hardcore

[blazing wasp]

Eris is hardcore

[warm acorn]

She is

[blazing wasp]

On the surface she seems like a goth nerd but

She's quite the badass, a capable fighter, knowledgeable, and brutal when needs be

[river belfry]

and basically a goddess

[blazing wasp]

At a time she was a hive god, but not anymore

She relinquished it

[river belfry]

yeah but having the title of "ex-hive goddess" its pretty badass

[warm acorn]

True

Can we become a hive god

[jagged badge]

No

[warm acorn]

😔

So us killing thousands of hive doesn’t empower us at all

[ember storm]

We have no direct tie to the sword logic so no

That would require us forming a blood pact with the worm gods

[warm acorn]

Oh my

[devout vine]

Now that sounds cool...A Hive God of blood

[ember storm]

I’d say we’d be the god of hope but eh

Hive godhood would be the bad timeline

[slim elk]

Well
It's less we don't have the opportunity, more that we just dont bother to do it

We even have a willing Worm God "sponsor" with Xol

[ember storm]

That we don’t know exists

If we did, it would be immediately thrown in the incinerator

[slim elk]

...
He's a gun probably sitting in your vault right now

And by Sword Logic we have the most solid claim to be Taken King

[ember storm]

Mara already took all the power from that

[dim minnow]

we also already made it clear that we don't want it

[ember storm]

We canonically dont know that’s Xol

He tricked everyone canonically barring Nokris

Everyone thinks he’s dead

[dim minnow]

The inside if the Traveler smells like Vanilla, it has been confirmed

[eager trout]

||Me locking in when I hear Drifter calling for help:||

Ok, after learning more of what Calus did before Lightfall, I'm even more confused on why he changed so much for Lightfall

[jagged badge]

Wdym?

[slim elk]

Yeah... his whole deal was basically living it up as much as he could before the end of the universe (aka Witness arriving)

When it arrived, may as well sign up with it to keep on living it up

[warm acorn]

||Why is the right always a lie||

[trim grotto]

How so? Calus dubbed himself as the Herald of Darkness since we first knew him. He always wanted to be the last in existence - and the Witness never seemed to tell anyone the truth of what the Final Shape was, so he thought he was getting what he wanted.

[frigid sparrow]

"the universe is gonna end, and whatever's gonna end it, I'm gonna be on its side"

[trim grotto]

Yeah it's very on brand for Calus, imo - apart from now knowing what form the Final Shape would take

[frigid sparrow]

Presage shows his communion with the darkness/witness and season of the haunted shows some of those results and cements himself as an eventual force of the witness

He believed he could outwit the end of the universe (which we see with him acting cocky even in the face of the witness) by becoming a part of the forces that would destroy and reshape it

[ember storm]

Calus admitted that he felt “cheated” when arrivals happened and the universe didn’t end, and so demanded an audience with the witness after venturing into the mars anomaly, where he learned the true nature of the final shape and decided to properly become its herald in haunted

[frigid sparrow]

Calus should've just offered the witness to become a shadow tbh it's a raw title and I'm sure it would've tempted them a little bit

[empty fern]

Calus a certified 2012 lover

[eager trout]

Oh, nevermind, then.

[spiral sorrel]

Tbh guardians being able to just see without eyes wouldnt be too far off. I mean have you guys seen some of our helmets, they dont even have eye slots..

[eager trout]

Warlocks can definitely sense where things are

Hunters always have eye slots or something see-through

And Titans just guess or do it by pure instinct

[ember storm]

Apparently ghosts always have an active live feed so they might just be feeding that to us through digital visors in the helmets

[spiral sorrel]

Ghosts do be livestreamers

[ember storm]

Unpartnered ghost who films every dead body they come across like a card pack opening video

“Unfortunately we did not get the pull this time guys, but that’s why I gathered 16 more dead citizens just in case”

[bright stream]

what should I know before I start heresy?

[ember storm]

Eh it’ll give you a little recap cutscene in the beginning anyway

[bright stream]

like what was that witch thing

[ember storm]

Wdym

[bright stream]

where she sealed away some thang i never played that season

[ember storm]

She cut xivu arath off from her throne world

Now Xivu doesn’t have any respawn point, she’s still got all her power as a god, but she’s mortal

[bright stream]

ohhh

[bright stream]

whats that thing about eris being a hive god

[ember storm]

It was just part of the season really

Eris decided to take a gamble and used a backwards method of becoming a hive god to gather the strength needed to stop Xivu

It didn’t seem to have any lasting impact on her but you never know

[bright stream]

ok

thanks

[frigid sparrow]

well.. besides. y'know. ||the throne world she respawned in ||

[bright stream]

ohh thats where she went

[frigid sparrow]

plus she got to keep a worm

[bright stream]

i forgot why thats important

also the dreadnought was sealed away or some and somehow its back? thats the premise of the episode right?

[ember storm]

No, it’s always just been in Saturn’s orbit around

[eager trout]

What's the Void Hunter mentality?

[frigid sparrow]

"Draw from the void. Light the way."

[eager trout]

???

Ok, what's the best subclass for a Hunter who's crafty, smart, and ingenious?

[frigid sparrow]

Ignoring prismatic, probably solar or strand

"A lone wolf who lives for the perfect shot" for solar, "The plucked string, the sharpest song. Freedom, infinitely promised" for strand

[eager trout]

To add to this, the Hunter is also good at making and building stuff. Cautious and level-headed, but also more sensitive and soft in private.

[frigid sparrow]

Then strand

[eager trout]

And from the Light subclasses?

[frigid sparrow]

Solar

[eager trout]

However, she's also very controlling of her own life. Trying to avoid the mistakes from her past life (which she learned about through a diary).

[frigid sparrow]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[eager trout]

Apparently Gunslingers are also kinda reckless

[frigid sparrow]

They're hunters, they're gonna be reckless

If you try and fit your character building into nice little check boxes that simultaneously work with the lore you are not gonna have many boxes filled without detailed knowledge of the lore and the character you want to create

[eager trout]

Ok, either way I think Void suits her best.

Though Solar does use more "gadgets" and have more melee options...

[frigid sparrow]

They also use a self-made explosive

[eager trout]

Yeah

[frigid sparrow]

Now, of note, the two hunters who most closely describe the character you want to make are Eris Morn and Ana Bray, Eris being a former bladedancer (D1 arc) and Ana being a gunslinger (solar).

[eager trout]

Ok, Ana does seem to be good with tech

[slim girder]

Are we allowed to talk about the dungeon yet? Some really cool stuff in there but just want to be sure

[warm acorn]

Use spoilers

[slim girder]

[dim minnow]

Class and subclass aren't exactly character archetypes

even then they're just generalizations at most

[next bobcat]

Sooooo how is oryx back? The story didn’t explain it at all, I’m lost

[dim minnow]

we haven't even gotten to that part yet

[warm acorn]

Something to do with the echo hitting the dreadnaught and the dreadnaught being oryx’s throne world probably

[slow berry]

its most likely that the echo is oryx

since its called the echo of navigation

[dim minnow]

that wording heavily suggests that the Echo is made from Oryx's memory

[warm acorn]

Hmmmm like memories of him or whatever?

Yeah that would make sense

So that means that the witness and oryx came in direct contact

Which makes sense

Wait where did oryx learn to take

[slow berry]

From communing with The Deep, probably the Winnower

[warm acorn]

And the deep is?

[dim minnow]

it's not impossible

[warm acorn]

Darkness?

[dim minnow]

Darkness

[warm acorn]

Okay cool

[dim minnow]

the Hive refer to Darkness as the Deep

the Light is the Sky

[warm acorn]

Makes sense

[dim minnow]

for a while people debated on whether or not the Deep is the Witness or the WInnower

[warm acorn]

So before we get to sundered doctrine lore, what is the lore behind VotD?

[dim minnow]

or more accurately, if the Witness was the Winnower or not

[slow berry]

we are pretty sure its not the witness

[warm acorn]

I guess the winnower is more likely to be the deep

Or a god of the deep

And the witness is its champion

Or avatar

[slow berry]

both the witness confirms they are not the winnower, and the winnower speaks much differently than the witness

[slow berry]

the witness is the first knife

[dim minnow]

or it claims to be the first knife

[warm acorn]

Which is?

[dim minnow]

if you ask the Winnower, it would probably prefer Oryx over the Witness, but Oryx did get killed so I guess it took a liking to the Witness

[warm acorn]

Lol

[dim minnow]

of course, this is only because the Witness was actually getting close to ending the game

[warm acorn]

So the witnesses goal was the final shape

What was oryx’s end goal

[dim minnow]

at first when we destroyed the Witness, the Winnower wasn;t very happy, but then it realized that even if we stalled it by a million years or so, it will inevitably end in its favor

[dim minnow]

the Final Shape

[slow berry]

Sword Logic

Which is to say, one single entity above the rest, proven by might and survival of the strongest

[dim minnow]

note that while the goal is the same, they each have their own interpretations of the Final Shape

[warm acorn]

That makes sense

[dim minnow]

Oryx's view of it aligns a lot more with the Winnower's views

[warm acorn]

So oryx’s interpretation is one entity above everyone won through combat or survival

and then the witnesses is like

Freeze everyone in permanent stasis

Or rather all the dissenters

And then like absorb your followers

Or something

[dim minnow]

the Witness seeked to calcify all of reality

no more life, no more death, no more growth

[dim minnow]

When Savathun returned to her Throne with the Light, she used the Wellspring to completely reshape it

while he did this, she forced Rhulk into his Pyramid and kept him locked in there

or maybe pushed him back into it where he then locked it down so she couldn't get into it

anyways, the Pyramid was now stuck there until we defeated Savathun

[warm acorn]

Oh so Rhulk was roaming savathuns throne world?

[dim minnow]

after he screwed up in trying to recruit a species known as the Ahslids, he believed that the Witness punished him by forcing him to stay in Savathun's Throne World so he can groom her into becoming a new Disciple

[warm acorn]

Is that when he killed off that entire species or?

[dim minnow]

accidentally got them to nuke each other

[warm acorn]

So savathun returns, Rhulk gets put in pyramid jail

[dim minnow]

left all but one and the one remaining was the one Rhulk considered a failure

[warm acorn]

We “kill” savathun

[warm acorn]

Oh my

Who was the one remaining

[dim minnow]

we don;t exactly know what happened to Uun

that was his name

Uun

[warm acorn]

Interesting

Rip Uun

[dim minnow]

he tried to fight Rhulk, but he didn't really accomplish much

[warm acorn]

As expected

[dim minnow]

Rhulk probably killed him or left him there

[warm acorn]

Is Rhulk the first disciple

[dim minnow]

yes

[warm acorn]

Fire

[dim minnow]

there's an entire lore book on his backstory

[warm acorn]

And Nezarec is also a disciple?

[dim minnow]

Shattered Suns, read it

it;s good

[dim minnow]

yes

[warm acorn]

Will do

And Nezarec also has magical nightmare curse powers

Because he just does

[dim minnow]

the Witness had many disciples and we know at least 4 of them

Rhulk, Nezarec, Calus, and an unnamed one who was long dead

[slim girder]

I do wish we got a lore tab describing the exact moment of discipleship. Unless I'm missing something we just know that the disciples of the witness are given glaives their status as a disciple

[dim minnow]

Calus wasn't

the glaive thing might just be Rhulk

he had one, then he gave one to Nezarec

we don't have much on Nezarec

all we really know is that he was the first Tormentor and was created using Rhulk's genetic blueprint partially

[warm acorn]

Ope

Chicken boy Nezarec

So rhulks pyramid ship opened up after we defeated savathun and then we pulled up and killed him?

[dim minnow]

without Savathun there the barrier preventing entry was getting weaker

until we decided to approach the Pyramid as essentially invaders

up until that point, every time we entered a Pyramid was when the Pyramid (the Witness) wanted us to enter

[warm acorn]

And that’s when the raid happens and all the defenses go crazy

[dim minnow]

from what it looks like, while we did invade the Pyramid, we were unintentianally reactivating the superweapon that was within

THE UPENDED! A TRIUMVERATE!

[slim girder]

Why did we approach the pyramid in the first place? I don't remember the description of the raid back then but did we really just go their only to investigate or was an actual threat known about?

[warm acorn]

There’s a super weapon inside another giant ship?

[dim minnow]

OPPORTUNITY, PRESERVATION, SALVATION!

[slim girder]

Yes. The big cube

[warm acorn]

First the dreadnaught now rhulks pyramid ship bruh

[dim minnow]

THAT WHICH HAS THE POWER TO TURN WORLDS UPSIDE-DOWN!

[warm acorn]

Big cube where

[slim girder]

In the centre of the ship and where you fight rhulk. Below it is a worm god named xita who is the mother of worms

[dim minnow]

It isn't really specifically stated what it does, we just know that we did not want it to be fired

[warm acorn]

Ohhh like where Rhulk is standing

Is xita in the cube?

[dim minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-the-witch-queen-witch-queen-throne-world-pyramid-gif-25077436

[warm acorn]

Like an insect in amber

[dim minnow]

she's below it

[trim grotto]

look at the bottom of the picture

[warm acorn]

Oh she’s slurping up all that resonance

[slim girder]

Byf had a theory that upending and eversion were similar so that might have been what the upended was made to do. Literally invert a world.

[warm acorn]

That’s neat

[slim girder]

No she's powering it

[warm acorn]

O

[trim grotto]

The further into the Raid you go, the more powered the Upended gets, and the more charred and burned her body becomes.

[dim minnow]

Fynch stated that it "scoured the Light"

[warm acorn]

So xita the mother of worms powers a giant super weapon inside of a pyramid that you thought you were invading to take out this disciple

And does xita also die after we kill Rhulk or?

[dim minnow]

it seems like whatever we were doing to proceed was what powered it up

[trim grotto]

She dies at the climax of the Raid.

[warm acorn]

Bruh how did I not know this

So she dies when we reach Rhulk

[dim minnow]

did you play through the raid?

[warm acorn]

Yes

[trim grotto]

Go into Preservation, you can see her there. Take Parasite.

[dim minnow]

have you at least notice the giant-ass worm sitting there?

especially in the early raid

[warm acorn]

I played that raid like twice

But no

I never notice a giant worm💀💀

Like before 1st encounter when you’re still outside?

“Outside”

[trim grotto]

You can see her as soon as you drop down the big gap

Basically the entire time you're inside the Pyramid

[dim minnow]

as you're approaching the 1st encounter

she is huge

[warm acorn]

Wild that I’ve never noticed

I need to run vow again I guess

I did it enough to craft forbearance and that was it

So yeah she does during the Rhulk fight or right before

And thus the upending powers down

And Rhulk dies

So we save the world woohoo

[dim minnow]

it is also worth noting that he directly helped the Witness create the Hive

and that he was essentially running a Hive worm factory/experimentation operation

hence the Caretaker, which is a Scorn/worm fusion

[warm acorn]

Wait what Rhulk existed before the hive?

[warm acorn]

… oh god

[trim grotto]

Aye. Rhulk stole Xita, the Worm God Mother, and as part of the bargain had the Worm Gods transform the Krill/Proto Hive into the Hive we know today.

Rhulk and the Witness had the Worm Gods make the Hive, in other words.

[warm acorn]

…

That’s wild

So xita made all the other worm gods

[trim grotto]

She was the Mother Worm, at least of the Fundament Worm Gods.

They were trapped within Fundament, and in exchange for taking Xita, Rhulk promised freedom for the others. With the corruption of the Hive, they got what they wanted.

[warm acorn]

And what’s fundament?

[trim grotto]

Fundament was the gas giant upon which the proto-Hive lived on shattered continents. Within its oceans, the Worm Gods were imprisoned by the Leviathan.
You may remember an absolutely massive bone within 1st encounter of Vow of the Disciple. That bone was a rib of the Leviathan.

[warm acorn]

The leviathan the creature

And did Rhulk kill the leviathan too?

[trim grotto]

No, but he did tear its rib out while it still lived.

In the end, the Worm Gods feasted upon its carcase after the Hive left Fundament in the form we know today.

[warm acorn]

That’s wonderful

Rhulk did all this crazy stuff and then gets beat by 6 guardians. Imagine

[next bobcat]

Wdym we haven’t gotten there? It’s told us he’s back, but we don’t know that yet?

[lofty badge]

yes

[next bobcat]

Nice job bungie

[jagged badge]

?

What?

[next bobcat]

I find it weird for them to tell us that oryx is back in the quest description, but actually not properly reveal him as “back” until later.

It should have been the foremost thing in the episode opening, in my opinion.

[slim girder]

That giant bone you see during the raid is the rib bone he took from the Leviathan.
His pyramid ship is filled with all sorts of crazy stuff. And we've discovered even more of that in the new dungeon.

Oh also @trim grotto not sure if you have done the dungeon yet but if you haven't I think you'll like the mechanic because being a lorehead actually helps. It's pretty cool. They actually managed to use lore as a gameplay feature

[trim grotto]

I haven't, but I'm glad to hear it.

[fallow marsh]

I haven’t played in like 5 months someone update me on the lore pls

[trim grotto]

The Episodes are all still available to play

[fallow marsh]

Oh I was just asking if anything happened because people saying Zavala died n stuff

[trim grotto]

Uh, well, he didn't. Not sure who's saying that.

But yeah if you want to see what lore you've missed, all the content is still there to play if you want to see it yourself

[loud dawn]

I don't know a ton of specifics about lore... but coming from other games I kind of related the Hive to the Old Gods / Black Empire of WoW and the Eldrazi of MTG. They're all about sating a hunger / devouring worlds / etc.

Then I sort of related the Dread to the Phyrexians of MTG and the Burning Legion of WoW just because they all seem to take over remnants of other races, corrupting, enhancing and "perfecting" them...

But does anyone feel like the Dread are underwhelming? I guess I'm still learning about them, and we're still being exposed to them, so maybe as things develop they'll become more intimidating?

[slow berry]

The Dread don't really do anything, they're just puppets

It was the Witness that did what you're talking about, and they do be fucking things about a lot

Not anymore these days but still

We don't really know what the Dread are going to do now that their conductor is gonezo

[loud dawn]

I just feel like even visually they don't really live up to the name that much. The only really spooky one is the tormentor.

maybe if we knew more about the races they came from it would be more like "oh damn what happened to you?? o-o "

[slow berry]

we do as of now kinda, subjugators and tormentors are split off clones of rhulk, grims are dissenters

[warm acorn]

So why did some dissenters become grims but other dissenters become statues

[loud dawn]

i think like a big hulking cabal Dread abomination would've been interesting

[slow berry]

depends on how many bats the witness needed ig

[warm acorn]

Why not just make more bats

Have 500,000 bats swarming the witnesse’s castle in salvations edge

Or excision

[slow berry]

he's kinda busy enacting the final shape

[lofty badge]

atm in heresy they are very active and seem to be acting on their own

[frigid sparrow]

It's half and half. They seem to be drawn to leadership much like taken, but they also have some sort of consciousness. The dungeon dread were attempting to "reshape" themselves

And, right now, the big first knife subjugator seems to be the big bad of this episode

[warm acorn]

I love how the dread in the dungeon are just tired of being treated like garbage and are trying to reinvent themselves

And we come in and kill them all

[frigid sparrow]

Fikrul lives on in spirit...

[hidden pebble]

Savathun died in WQ right?

Did she ever get rez’d and get “re-killed” by eris or am i misremembering

[frigid sparrow]

Yeah this is literally 1-1 what happened in season of the witch lol

[hidden pebble]

something something it looks good on you honey

[slow berry]

Yeah

Immaru rez's her so Eris can get her tithes to exunge Xivu Arath from her throne world

[hidden pebble]

just about to do destined heroes so wondering how she’s alive

[slow berry]

she do be having a ghost

[warm acorn]

Ghost Rez just like us guardians

[slow berry]

it was part of the deal

[hidden pebble]

we let immaru rez her again?

[slow berry]

she gets to live in exchange from getting us into the pale heart

which she does by providing the fifteenth wish

we kept immaru as collateral but he just escaped this season

[warm acorn]

Wait immaru escaped?

When did that happen

Heresy?

[slow berry]

Yeah its in the ghost shell lore tab this season

in the season pass

[warm acorn]

Oh this season

Okay so savathun is now totally free

[frigid sparrow]

We agreed to let him rez her so we could learn the 15th wish from her trickery and let Eris murder her in her vengeance to get immense tithe so she could banish Xivu

[warm acorn]

Why is immaru not in maximum security prison lol

[frigid sparrow]

Win-win scenario with us getting tithes for Eris using her stuff and savathun gets her house cleaned out of the undesirables

[hidden pebble]

is she just chilling in the throne world?

[frigid sparrow]

Last we saw of her was the pale heart, but she speaks to us in the dungeon

[warm acorn]

She could just become super powerful and do witch queen stuff again

[lofty badge]

could be the travler's current state of healing and also being fused with darkness prevents savathun from just teleporting the traveler to her own throne world

• she does have her forces focused on claiming the pale heart

[fresh zephyr]

When the witness died were we cast out of the pale heart or did we chose to leave? And is there any way back in? Because with the valence no one can even get close

[frigid sparrow]

We've set up shop in the pale heart, we still do overthrows after the witness dies

[slim girder]

No we are still there and everything. The task now is to help the traveler heal.

Everyone can still enter as they please.

[fresh zephyr]

So there’s just some way we can come and go whenever?

[slim girder]

Yes.

[lofty badge]

yeah the giant ass portal in the side of the traveler

[fresh zephyr]

But I thought that portal was only open to us for a very short time because of Mara and the wish

[slim girder]

Since we already crossed that threshold now the door is open

Crow was the key and he basically unlocked the door for all of us

[lofty badge]

yeah

• our efforts do help heal the travler so i don't think the travler wants the portal closed right now

also with the new lore of the dungeon, do we know if more Dread are still being made with the witness dead? or are the dread lorewise finite and that is a other reason why they are currently using taken so heavly as cannon fodder?

[slim girder]

I believe they are capable of producing themselves now. Maybe not a huge amount though so yes throwing taken at everything would be a good strategy.

[lofty badge]

got cha, in what way do you think they produce more of themselves? the same way the witness did it using light and dark?

possbly with the echo they likly got

?

[slim girder]

Dread don't require light and dark I don't think. Just dark.
Also we don't know if this new dread actually has the echo yet.

[lofty badge]

true

but fair

tho it does seem the dread are also just trying to become their own thing too

i hope the hive will play a bigger role in the nether acivety next week

[slim girder]

They're fighting the new dire taken so I feel they are definitely looking for something.

Probably the echo as well

[frigid sparrow]

The nether is meant to expand and we saw the hive in the trailer, plus xivu is still likely to be a part of the story

[slim girder]

The nether will likely expand to the other areas of the dreadnaught. Like the hull breach for example.

Or the catacombs maybe.

[lofty badge]

yeah i hope so

idk if it will be like a rotation

one week we have dread leading dire taken and a other week we have Red Hive

[frigid sparrow]

I imagine it'll be somewhat like altars of summoning

[slim girder]

There's a triumph related to runes being used in another area of the dreadnaught called the hall of blades iirc

That big door in the founts leads to the place we went for that exotic sword quest in D1

[serene swift]

Could you theoretically feed a small worm until it becomes as large as a worm like xol?

[ember storm]

no

they are actually a separate species

worm gods are born as capital Worms and the parasites are physically designed to just be living batteries

[frigid sparrow]

Please do not feed eris' worm

[serene swift]

Sad, so were the worm gods born massive?

[ember storm]

they were born as big weird fish things like Ahsa

accepting the darkness mutated them into the limbless things with four jaws

[lofty badge]

do you guys think that Savathun's Throne world lorewise is still full of Non Revenant scorn?

[ember storm]

prolly

fikrul never went to get them

probably led by dread now

[fresh zephyr]

Is the vault of glass a place outside of time?

[slim girder]

No. It's more like a fluctuation in time. Inside the vault space and time are at the mercy of the vex.

But the vault is still in the Ishtar sink on venus as always.

[empty fern]

Who’s the voice that takes over for Eris in the episode?

Is that hawthorne?

[slow berry]

Do you mean Sloane?

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-2-lightfall-season-of-the-deep-sloane-deputy-commander-gif-2771720598921475232

[empty fern]

Oh it’s sloane

No wonder she shows up

[brave thicket]

i missed out on some seasons what happened to the H.E.L.M?

[trim grotto]

You can find out. Na-Veskirisk, free mission intro to Revenant, on the Europa map.

[eager trout]

Failsafe's bad driving/j

[brave thicket]

pffff

[lofty badge]

kek

i still want a subclass where we can summon at least one taken minion that can fight alongside us for a little bit...just to have that summoner feel 😭

tho i guess Stasis warlock can do the same

[fresh zephyr]

Byf said something about a vault in the Pyramid? Could this be another Disciple

Like a Disciple that tried to Usurp the Witness

[slim girder]

We'll probably learn more from the dungeon quest. It's timegated though so we can't get the answers to everything atm.

My best guess is maybe a "successful" experiment out of the hundreds of failed ones we see inside the ship.

Or maybe an artefact of some kind.

[fresh zephyr]

Nezarec

Lol

[jagged badge]

Oh it is?

[slim girder]

Yes. First time they've done this.

It's weird.

[lofty badge]

yee

[lofty badge]

Rhulk's son

Rhulk Jr

aka that would just be a powerful Subjucator XD

[slim girder]

A dead lubraen i think would be a pretty cool reveal. Like rhulk taking one reminder of his home

Or something taken from lubrae before it was destroyed

[lofty badge]

yeah

and i don't think that would be too out of char for him

like just a preserved body of one of his speices

but if so why would be put that in a vault in the lab section of his pyramid

[slim girder]

No clue.
But it might also be a special worm larvae if we stick to anything related to the laboratory.
Or again a special sort of artefact that he discovered.

And savathun is obviously wondering about it as well considering she speaks to us during the dungeon and quest

[lofty badge]

yee

[lofty badge]

think the scorn in Savathun's throne world is under Dread command or just directless and trying to find a purpose?

[trim grotto]

At this point, I assume they're acting on the last order imprinted upon them, like how the Scorn on the Tangled Shore used to after Fikrul disappeared.

[slim girder]

They're a dying species now that fikrul has been dealt with permanently. So as mael said they're probably following the last order they were given.

[trim grotto]

Well, to be fair, there are the Dark Ether rituals... They may be able to still produce more classic zombie Scorn.

[slim girder]

I could see that. But still I don't think they will ever be an actual threat again and will just eventually die out. Eliksni are safer in general now so that means less scorn.

[trim grotto]

True true

[lofty badge]

yeah

[slim girder]

Eliksni to my knowledge actually live happy lives now. Even under spider they do still live pretty comfortably.

More just like a worker

But they still live is the point. No more fighting for survival or anything.

[lofty badge]

yeah

when you are friends with the guardians who have killed most warmongers among your people who have tried to attack the last city and also the cabal empire

• the awoken

it makes sense you can live happy lives now

Eliksni under Mithrax don't have to worry about getitng their lower arms torn off for failure

[slim girder]

With the light and dark saga concluding I think the whole eliksni finding a home storyline is tied up.
There are still lots of other stories to go over though that can be explored in the next saga. Like what we're doing now in heresy.

[lofty badge]

yeah

also i wonder....was Fundement even in the Milky way galaxy?

[slow berry]

no

[lofty badge]

cause the hive have been doing their thing for millions of years

[slim girder]

No

[lofty badge]

bet makes sense it is not

[slim girder]

It's outside of our galaxy

[lofty badge]

yeah

but that is also scary to think there are likly galaxies full of hive

or just dead worlds

[slim girder]

Everything the hive did in their prime was way outside of our galaxy. Otherwise we would have definitely noticed them given that kind of planetary destruction

[lofty badge]

ye

but i do hope we vist some cabal worlds

since they were a huge empire

[fresh zephyr]

Rhulk Jr

[slim girder]

Caiatl is still looking to reclaim torobatl. So that's a possible story thread we could see explored. As long as xivu arath is around, that will always be a topic in the background as she was the one who took torobatl

[fresh zephyr]

Torobatl dlc

I mean what Frontiers looks like right now is reclaiming. Eramis has already gone to Riis, and I presume Caiatl will do the same for Torobatl

[slow berry]

Eramis has not gone to riis btw

She's gonna try and find a planet to found a new Riis on

[fresh zephyr]

There’s a whole cutscene of her looking to build a Riis

Yeah

[slim girder]

Eramis has the means to do with the echo whenever she's ready to.
Caiatl however needs xivu dealt with before she can consider going back.

[fresh zephyr]

I’m so confused at the moment. The Taken and the Dread are fighting Xivu Arath on the Dreadnaught, but the Hive and the Dread are working together in the Pyramid

[sleek matrix]

Different dread faction

[slim girder]

Different dread and hive factions. Since the death of the witness a lot of factions are scattered.

[sleek matrix]

The one in the dungeon vs the one on the dreadnought are lead by different bosses

[sleek matrix]

Its honestly refreshing to see

[slim girder]

Yeah it's cool to see this power vacuum happening and different things are popping up in the world.

[fresh zephyr]

Agreed, though I do miss the Witness

[sleek matrix]

I'm hoping we get some nine involvement eventually

They the most mysterious entities in destiny

We even know more about the winnower than the nine

[jagged badge]

I mean

Not really

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah the Nine have been around forever

They had a whole season

[sleek matrix]

Who is more mysterious and the least we know about?

[fresh zephyr]

We didn’t know the Winnower was even real until recently

[jagged badge]

The Nine are sentient space dust given consciousness by the formation of life in the Solar System

[slim girder]

We have a curio of the nine that we got this week so they're bound to turn up at some point.

[sleek matrix]

Yes

[slim girder]

We actually know a fair bit

[fresh zephyr]

Let Skolas free, caused the Towerfall

[jagged badge]

Their existence is dependent on Sol’s survival, which is why they’ve ever tried to enable us to protect it or experimented and sought independence

[sleek matrix]

So there basically useless

[slim girder]

The winnower however we know nothing about.
Just through the messages it's sent us. We don't know what it looks like, what it can do, or anything.

[sleek matrix]

If its to be believed its older than before time began

[slim girder]

We just know what it believes

[sleek matrix]

And the source of darkness itself

[slim girder]

That's not confirmed

[sleek matrix]

We know what it wants us to know

Its send us messages but we have not been able to send any

[slim girder]

We already do in the form of killing the witness

[fresh zephyr]

The Winnower just sends us emails when it gets bored

[slim girder]

Everything we do is sending it a message

[sleek matrix]

Yes

In terms of the sword logic

[slim girder]

This episode it's literally egging us to "kill it"

And by it I believe it means the special subjugator in the episode

[sleek matrix]

More than likely

[slim girder]

"kill it, i dare you"

[sleek matrix]

I wonder if this is all some master plan

By the winnower

[slim girder]

The winnower does not plan. It just lets things happen because it knows it's logic is undeniable. Even if it takes another million years.

It doesn't need to do anything

[sleek matrix]

So more of a puppeteer

[slim girder]

Not even that more an observer

[sleek matrix]

The way he talked too oryx was like super chill

[slim girder]

The only other being it's spoken directly to is oryx. It doesn't just reach out unless it sees something very interesting like again us killing the witness and averting oblivion

[sleek matrix]

Winnower sounds like a cool entity

[sleek matrix]

Or just now

Eris being dead but not dead and us being left alone

To do what we must

Like we did during the uldren stuff

[slim girder]

They are not evil. Though they have said they don't mind being a little cruel at times.
They just want us to embrace it's ideal of the universe

[lofty badge]

i feel like the Winnower just don't have the same moral compass as mortals like humans, Eliksni and cabal

[slim girder]

It doesn't

Us protecting others and having a morality goes against what it believes

"The world is not built on the laws they love... Not on peace, but by victory at any means."

We want peace so already that's going against it.

[lofty badge]

yeah

we kill things to protect people

(mostly)

[fresh zephyr]

I do miss the Witness a lot. It’s still weird not to have it around

It appeared for the first time in ShadowKeep and had Sol in a chokehold until Final Shape. ✨Aura✨

[lofty badge]

yeah

[sick yew]

I wouldnt say they had sol in a chokehold until like Witch Queen ended

[fresh zephyr]

Arrivals

[sick yew]

Exception

But yeah I just remembered that too

[fresh zephyr]

It tried to cause a second collapse there and then, and it was only through the reformation of the Traveler that it was able to stave it off.

It wasn’t as upfront as Witch Queen, but the Witness was making all sorts of moves. Eramis was in position too

[sick yew]

The Witness had been making moves since the dawn of its existence but we werent exactly in a proper bad spot until the fleet rolled up in Lightfall

Arrivals while a blow didnt really hit that hard

[fresh zephyr]

I wonder if the Europa pyramid is ours

😤

[sick yew]

Ours?

Wdym ours

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah, Byf said something about the Pyramid responding to commands. What if we have one to take into Frontiers😭

It’ll probably be the Dreadnaught tbh

[empty fern]

Neither?

[sick yew]

The pyramids are alive to some extend, the reacted to our presence when we went to the Europa one to fight the cabal

Sorta temporal alliance type thing

[trim grotto]

The Sunken Pyramid responded to commands after the first run of the Dungeon. But I wouldn't expect we take, like, full command.

[sick yew]

It would open doors for us and shit like that
But we never commanded one and I highly doubt we ever will

And it's even less likely we could take control of the dreadnought

[trim grotto]

The Dreadnaught is also dying, so there's that.

[fresh zephyr]

Nooo

[empty fern]

Get flayed idiot

[fresh zephyr]

Not my Dreadnaught

[trim grotto]

Peeling and collapsing

[fresh zephyr]

Is this a meta commentary on leaving Oryx behind pls no Bungie

Let Oryx live I’ll do anything

[empty fern]

It’s only week one if act one

Calm down

[trim grotto]

Dreadnaught's been dying for years. But we can really see it now, as the layers peel back to show bone.

Pathways collapse

[fresh zephyr]

Pathways into Darkness

[trim grotto]

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/oryx-taking-himself-destiny-oryx-taken-king-gif-17498021

[fresh zephyr]

I pray Oryx lives, I’d love to see him back.

[sick yew]

Do I remember it correctly? The Dreadnaught is technically speaking a throne world

[empty fern]

Think we’ll visit regicide room?

[trim grotto]

[empty fern]

Inside out throne world that’s also the body of a worm

[sick yew]

mh

[empty fern]

Something like that

[fresh zephyr]

The room seems to be blocked off. I went over there and there’s blight on the door

[empty fern]

True, but at later date (also remember to activate the alters to get the secret boss and sorrow fragment)

[fresh zephyr]

Sorrow fragment? Whatattt

Have I totally ignored a huge secret

[empty fern]

Oh you haven’t been doing the secrets of the dead aunt?

Dreadnaught

[sick yew]

Dead Aunt lmfao

[empty fern]

Shut up

[fresh zephyr]

I’ve done the very easy ones, but not like anything crazy

[empty fern]

So the fire alters at the alter of oryx and the fire alters at the regicide door

There’s also the ravenous
Some shades here and there?
Hanging cabal bodies

Then there’s also the worms,

[fresh zephyr]

I am terrible at secrets, it hurts my brain

[empty fern]

Shades and cabal in mausoleum don’t drop the fragments afaik

[fresh zephyr]

I think I’ve picked up the worms

But there’s 2 timegated ones

[empty fern]

At least 6? That’s my count rn

[empty fern]

Ooo which ones

[slim girder]

I love it. Exploring and collecting stuff is fun to me. Solving puzzles as well

[fresh zephyr]

No idea, I was following Eso’s video

[empty fern]

Oh I should probably watch a video too ,_,

[fresh zephyr]

I love it, but my brain hurts very easily😭 and fomo worries me

[slim girder]

Don't fret too much. If you really can't find it no shame in a guide. I just like to try on my own first

I don't worry about fomo because I know I'll get everything eventually

I already play this game religiously

[fresh zephyr]

It’s emblems and stuff for me mostly

Like that Encore one I never got lol

[eager trout]

Does MIDA Multitool have a synthesized voice or is the "Select application" thing just text?

[bright stream]

can someone explain the premise of episode 2 and what background info i shoudl know?

[dim minnow]

The expert time trial one?

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah

[dim minnow]

That was a fun one to go for, Microcosm helps with the Omen and Tormentor

[ember storm]

Fikrul got one of the echoes, Fikrul was the first of the scorn (Eliksni zombies), and he was created by Uldren Sov (the previous mortal life of Crow)

That’s all you really need to know going in, everything else that’s introduced will be explained to you

[fresh zephyr]

Is there any lore on how hive (or anything else ig) return from their throne world? Like when they’re killed do they have to do something to make a new body or do they just need to open a door out of the ascendant plane?

[strong tendon]

I’m pretty sure somebody has to enact what they represent

(Like oryx brought back savathun by displaying cunning and brough back xivu through acts of war)

Though I could be wrong

[ember storm]

That’s for those highest up and with the most losses on their end when they die

Ordinarily a hive dies and their body basically just combusts for them to respawn in their throne world

Then they work the strength back up to return (either by tribute form their followers, or a sufficient enough act exclusive to the main 3 because their worms can also feed on their natures)

A normal schmoe like Kelgorath isn’t going to get special treatment like that, he was just especially good at pulling up his bootstraps and getting back to work

Assuming Eris is in a throne world it’s very much a unique case

[uneven mulch]

whats the lore of vespers host

[strong tendon]

I know she gave up the power after banishing xivu, but could it not be a case of in order for her to leave we have to enact vengeance (as she was once the god of vengeance)?

[ember storm]

It’s possible but we don’t have a means of tithing to her so idk

[strong tendon]

Unrelated but the fate of the echoes so far is

-maya gets away with it
-Eramis takes it from fikrul

Who do we think this echo will end up with?

[uneven mulch]

eris!!

[strong tendon]

Also do you think there are more than the three echoes? Will more appear in frontiers?

[uneven mulch]

or drifter

[ember storm]

Probably going to be a race to get it

[uneven mulch]

also why was eris laughing and stuff

[ember storm]

The opening cutscene for echoes showed more than 3 so yeah

[ember storm]

Cause she got stabbed through the heart and she’s still awake

[strong tendon]

Relief? I guess?

[uneven mulch]

so she died right?

[ember storm]

Acting like this is the first time Eris let out a hearty chuckle is wrong

[ember storm]

Physically yeah

Her body is ice cold

[strong tendon]

I also love that every time eris is in seasonal content there’s a voice line of her just laughing menacingly (I hope this happens this episode to keep the trend going)

[uneven mulch]

theres is in the cutscene after the mission you find the nether

i think

[strong tendon]

I hope they follow through with the maya stuff and make her an actual menace. The echoes stuff was kinda lame.

Let her find her way to volantis. Then we’re screwed for sure

[eager trout]

So basically, the Hive are the only enemies that canonically respawn?

[eager trout]

What's Volantis?

[ember storm]

Taken never die apparently

They just get slurped back up into the ascendant plane

Also hive Lightbearers if their ghosts are alive

[eager trout]

Don't you mean taken back to the Ascentant Plane?

[strong tendon]

It’s like the closest thing there is to a vex home world (apart from the black garden I guess) it’s a forge star system colonised by the vex.

[eager trout]

Ah, ok, thanks

[strong tendon]

It’s where all the vex come from through the portal In glassway

Clovis opened the portal to let them through and killed them to harvest the radiolaria to make exos.

[strong tendon]

And fikrul. Well he did before he you know

[young sigil]

Doesn't it seem like this episode is hinting at whatever the next Darkness subclass will be? All the quest dialogue sounds like we are going to turn the power of "Taken" into something else..or am I just nuts

"Steel your mind against corruption, and repurpose the shape of desire into the shape of being"

[strong tendon]

I hope so. I also hope at some point in frontiers all subclasses get an overhaul. Because you can only play the same playstyle so many times

[eager trout]

Not to mention the Taken version of your Guardian that appears in the Episode vendor

Nimbus: "Cloudstriders don't need weapons"

The 3+ Cloudstrider exotic weapons (and ornaments):

[dim minnow]

arc has just got a huge rework with a new verb

same with Stasis previously

[slim girder]

The only new thing I want for the subclasses now is what Y1 sentinel had where you hold for the one and done super and tap for the roaming super.
All that's required is for strand and stasis to get new supers

Other than that though I feel they're fine with the current fragment and aspect system.

[slow berry]

I strongly doubt itll be taken, color theory wise it ought to be red and idk if that makes sense there

generally people think itll be related to nezarec's nightmares

[fresh zephyr]

Week 2!!!!

[slim girder]

That's because Micah mentioned it being an "untapped source of darkness" also to add to this theory, in the veil containment hall you can see the colours for stasis and strand along with the colour red which symbolises a third element to darkness.

No clue if this will ever be touched on though but who knows what bungie could do now that we're starting a new saga.

[hollow hinge]

They likely did have plans for it but it's evident their plans changed drastically

For example I'm convinced Strand was meant to be introduced in WQ

There's just too many coincidences and the deepsight is a half-baked explanation while if you think about Strand being the explanation behind it all, it all makes much more sense

and then if all would've gone to plan, who knows what Lightfall would've done

[slim girder]

Bungie themselves clarified strand hadn't even begun development during witch queen.

Because a lot of people made that assumption during the lightfall era

It was getting out of hand the community was starting to run with it when it really wasn't the case

People were going so far as to say this symbol on the warlock chest piece was the symbol for needlestorm when it clearly isn't.

[ember storm]

generating imbaru fr

[slim girder]

Mhm

[hollow hinge]

it's too similar
I'm sorry I just do not believe Bungie in this case

it's not like they've never lied to us or told us half truths

I can very well believe Strand never entered full development or sth but the gameplay element speaks for itself

[ember storm]

in what way

because literally all i've ever seen people say about it is "we use strings in the final savathun fight"

when we literally don't

we unravel her spell made of strings because she's a moth

they tend to do that

[slim girder]

It doesn't though. Strands whole marketing was all about being able to grapple and the throne world was definitely not the kind of place designed to show off a traversal tool.
Neomuna however would be perfect for that as it's got big buildings and things to climb

[slim girder]

Whole throne world is covered in cobwebs and in general has a whole bug theme going.
Nah strings = Strand

[ember storm]

do you think there are hive whose whole job is to just like

make string

everyone else is going out to gain tribute but nah you're the moth farmer

[slim girder]

I like to think so. I always pictured things like thrall doing the labour of putting hive gunk everywhere and wizards being the weavers of everything.

Like how some bugs make homes out of mud and stuff

Like how they clogged those pistons back on titan during the red war

[sleek matrix]

The final boss of sd what do we know about him?

Was he like a discipline

The boss death animation also is similar to rulks

[lofty badge]

he looks like a weaver or attendent, aka one of the modfied psions who became dread

[sleek matrix]

Yea

Good point his strand pull attack

[lofty badge]

yeee

wonder if said weaver was a special psion before they became dread

[slow berry]

It's very likely it was a Disciple, it dies in the same manner.

[lofty badge]

i doubt, that boss was once a Psion

or a dread weaver

unless the witness acended several Psions/weavers and attendeds to semi Disciples?

[slow berry]

Is there any particular reason a Psion couldn't have been a Disciple though

It makes sense given the rest of the Dread are shaped from other Disciples

[little gorge]

the wizards in the wq boss fight

[trim grotto]

yes waltz mentioned that

[little gorge]

oh

[ember storm]

Nezarec was basically just the ultimate form of what a psion could do though

Why would you spend the time and effort to make one when the original is already well on its way back

Also keep in mind the witness was solely preoccupied with wrestling control of the traveler since the end of LF, it wouldn’t have had time to do so anyway

[lofty badge]

yeah

[slim girder]

About SD. I had a look at the vault and this quest line unlocks symbols on the door.
Turns out a press release for destiny has a full image off the whole code that maybe unlocks the door.

Like if you do the quest you'll unlock 3 symbols and I assume each week we'll get more symbols until we get the whole thing

Some pretty interesting stuff if that code is supposed to be read in the order it appears

[strong tendon]

Wasn’t really. Huge. It just changed amplified a bit and added a new verb. The two aspects are nice additions though.

Like why can’t they just keep adding aspects. Also they need to add more to prismatic because it has remained relatively unchanged since its release

[jagged badge]

Prismatic is already the strongest option in most cases and invalidates certain subclasses almost entirely

It does not need more

[strong tendon]

Its whole purpose was to be OP no?

[sleek matrix]

Prismatic already has enough options

[jagged badge]

And it’s achieved that

Doesn’t need to be any better than it already is

[strong tendon]

Not really though because warlocks for example will almost always use exclusively bleak watcher and devour because that’s what the best aspects are.

The other three aspects are meh.

In comparison

[ember storm]

I haven’t seen a bleak watch getaway user in months

[strong tendon]

Tbf I haven’t played this game since echoes I’ve only just come back. I may not be the best person to judge this lol

[dapper moss]

hellion and lightning surge are both great

[fresh zephyr]

wait

I never knew this lore existed

A shimmer of violet light within the temporal storm heralds the arrival of a Vex Minotaur. It bellows a roar across the Venusian flats and fires a volley of energized plasma through the air.

The Minotaur raises its plasma cannon to Crow's chest and—

So its a plasma weapon

[sick yew]

You mean Vex guns? Yeah the void ones do seem like plasma

[fresh zephyr]

I always thought we only had the grimoire card for the torch hammer

its weird how a plasma cannon would cause exotic particle decay

unless its just another way of saying it would instantly disintegrate you

[sick yew]

Probably that lol

[fresh zephyr]

or cause massive burns

if a torch hammer is considered a plasma cannon, imagine what a warp lance would be considered

[sick yew]

Imma be real brother

Gun do be gun

[fresh zephyr]

indeed they do

[sick yew]

They do be shootin

And they do be hurtin

[fresh zephyr]

and explodin

[sick yew]

All the same to me

[fresh zephyr]

not much difference

[sick yew]

The aim thingy at me
Thing flies out
Dont get touched by thing

Life is simple

[fresh zephyr]

whats interesting about you saying "dont get touched by thing" is that the lore entry I was referring to says crow weaved through the shots

as if they were easy to dodge

[sick yew]

Projectiles fired out of any type of gun arent easy to dodge

But guardians are built dif

[fresh zephyr]

which begs the question of if gameplay accurately represents the speed of their projectiles

[sick yew]

It most certainly does not

Its probably easier to find instances where gameplay and lore do allign than when they dont

[fresh zephyr]

yeah

theres always that Curse of Osiris cutscene you call back to as well

[sick yew]

Where bro casually walks through a simulation of the vault of glass raid?

Or wdym

[fresh zephyr]

yeah

[ember storm]

Was that supposed to be a simulation I forgor

[sick yew]

I mean

Yeah?

Was there ever any doubt in that?

Osiris literally enters through one of his funky little triangle portals, he never used those outside of the Forrest

[fresh zephyr]

yeah i was just referring to that cutscene cuz it has alot of vex firing in it

[sick yew]

Damn I forgot how nice Sagiras voice was

[ember storm]

I just remember discussions about it because you see guardians using light and that’s a big grey area in vex simulations

[sick yew]

I mean its most likely a recording of the events from Vog

[ember storm]

I think the general consensus is that they’re able to construct and view a simulation with paracausal elements but have no means of effectively studying it without the proper understanding

[fresh zephyr]

or a simulation created by Orisis

[ember storm]

Like we see full on legions of hive in the infinite forest

[sick yew]

Remember the simulation of Mercuries past with the traveler unscarred casually terraforming Mercury in the backdrop?

[ember storm]

Then again that might’ve just been data copied from Quria’s initial studies

[ember storm]

It wasn’t actively doing so, it was just kinda there

No big beam or cradles anywhere

It was a simulation of the time period between the garden world era and just before the vex took over

[sick yew]

You could see the effects of the terraforming beneath it afair

[ember storm]

Doesn’t the garden world strike have it in the background while there’s already vex architecture though

Shits weird

[sick yew]

I always imagine it like this, the vex cant accurately simulate what the light can do but they what has already happened they can recreate
Like a replay

[fresh zephyr]

makes sense

[sick yew]

They couldnt possibly simulate how a Warlock infront of them could use their light
But if it had already happened and a random ass Goblin saw it that "memory" could be replayed in a simulation

They couldnt deviate from said simulation but they could replay the way the warlock used the light

But only in that specific way

They dont understand the how but they can witness the effect
Same way quantum physics are for us (cant think of a better example)
If a particle is in one place we couldnt calculate where it would be in the next second because its outside of our understanding of the universe but after it has moved three lightyears to the left we would know that for sure

[ember storm]

Sagira still says it’s “people in mortal danger” so idk

[sick yew]

Simulated people in mortal danger are in essence still people in mortal danger eh?

[slow berry]

Echoes has a bit on this, as does the Garden of Salvation lore with Praedyth

Imagine if one day you learned you were in a vex simulation

You'd still only be aware of your universe as real

[sick yew]

Yup

[slow berry]

Your entire life is real

[ember storm]

Metaphor: ReFantazio does a twist like this but not really

[sick yew]

The universe presented to yourself is real for you
Even if youre a simulation then the simulation is merely your reality

[sick yew]

Spoilers smh! (By the time I ever play that game ill have forgotten this)

[ember storm]

It happens in the opening cutscene

[sick yew]

lmao

[ember storm]

The game just completely introduces itself as an alternate world fantasy adventure

And then in the opening cutscene you find an in-universe fantasy novel

And it’s just like a fully detailed picture of modern day Japan

And it’s not elaborated on

[dim minnow]

The Grimoire card from D1 explains that the Torch Hammer fires strange matter projectiles

[frigid sparrow]

don't have to imagine it

[fresh zephyr]

yeah

I always thought that it had to be plasma or energy in some way

[dim minnow]

In whatever case, we know for a fact that Vex weapons are very deadly

Same could be said for other enemy faction weapons like Fallen Arc blades which are basically plasma torches

[fresh zephyr]

I see

[dim minnow]

Basically, the weapons enemies use ingame are a lot deadlier than they appear in gameplay

[fresh zephyr]

would their arc pistols be plasma too?

[dim minnow]

Probably

Arc energy specifically

[fresh zephyr]

electricity

[dim minnow]

Kinda

Paracausal elctricity

[fresh zephyr]

magic electricity

[dim minnow]

Arc, void, and solar are all paracausal inherently

[fresh zephyr]

there are weapons like the shock rifle that tracks

could be plasma

wait

the grimoire card says its a molten projectile

[dim minnow]

Shrapnel launcher or shock rifle?

[fresh zephyr]

shock rifle

[dim minnow]

I think wire rifles work similarly

Given how shock blades work, they might be as effective as plasma shooters

Projectiles covered in Arc energy

[fresh zephyr]

makes sense

the grimoire card says the wire rifle fires a molten projectile infused with arc

[hidden pebble]

is anything stronger that the traveler?

maybe starhorse or any ahamkara?

[dim minnow]

The Witness

[hidden pebble]

can one not wish for the witness to go poof?

[dim minnow]

for many reasons, that is not something you would want to try

[hidden pebble]

one being that there are no ahamkara?

[dim minnow]

1. Ahamkara are deceptive by nature, you can guarantee that your wish will not go the way you want it to
2. There is no guarantee that they can even do something like that

[dim minnow]

technically there are currently, but they haven't hatched yet

[hidden pebble]

the ones riven sent us to fetch

[dim minnow]

yes

[hidden pebble]

so they’re like monkey paws but we don’t exactly have a gauge of their power

[dim minnow]

we know they can ravage the surface of a planet

to what degree, I don't think it was specified

we just know that they caused enough of a ruckus on Venus to get the Vanguard to enact the Great Hunt

[ember storm]

a guardian witness to the event committed suicide, so

[fresh zephyr]

based upon how wyverns perform their aerial slams, can it be implied or inferred that they can fly?

[sleek matrix]

its more of a ballistic slam

[dim minnow]

it doesn't really look like they were designed for flight

[fresh zephyr]

so its some form of temporary anti gravity situation?

[sleek matrix]

more than likely

or they have strong legs

[fresh zephyr]

well I've noticed that when they rise up in the air, they fold in

so I dont think legs alone do it

and I think the fact that they have legs that are bigger than minotaurs cements the fact they have strong legs

as evidenced in this lore

A thunderous CRUNCH interrupted the Titan's rant. The pair peered into the valley below, where an enormous Vex Minotaur was lifting its giant metal hoof from the flattened body of their Warlock teammate.

[fresh zephyr]

oh wait yeah the name of the attack is gravity slam

[dim minnow]

Wyverns likely use their shield-wings to hover into the air since it's the same thing that allows them to propel themselves forward

Report Summary: While these wings are primarily used for balance, they can also be energized to propel a Wyvern forward at high speeds.```

[fresh zephyr]

could also explain why they fold in to propel themselves

[hidden pebble]

zavala said “what do you know about grief and desperation, except how to turn it off” to ikora

what did he mean by that?

[trim grotto]

Hm. Do you want to read the long answer, or have the summarised short answer?

[hidden pebble]

short answer for now

ishtar may have the long answer

small name change huh

[trim grotto]

Technically, it doesn't. The Ishtar Collective does not hold Collector's Edition physical lore.

[hidden pebble]

giant community website of all readable lore in game right?

[trim grotto]

Correct.

[eager trout]

Is it just me or a lot of things are pointing towards a new Dark subclass in Heresy?

[trim grotto]

Anyway - firstly, Ikora once Wished to become a different person, essentially.
Secondly, Ikora, as Warlock Vanguard, keeps up a certain appearance, which is also why she no longer participates in the Crucible.
Thirdly, Ikora is essentially Queen Hidden. The Hidden are more than spies, they control their emotions, intentionally undergo a sort of ego death.

"Know thy self." —second dictate, first calling, The Hidden
"Destroy thy self." —third dictate, first calling, The Hidden
"Shed thy self." —fourth dictate, first calling, The Hidden
"Embrace a new skin." —fifth dictate, first calling, The Hidden
"Become the many." —sixth dictate, first calling, The Hidden
"We are as unseen. We are as death." —final dictate, first calling, The Hidden```

[eager trout]

Ikora casually creating a cult and calling it secret service

[hidden pebble]

i know of her scary crucible days a bit

a slight bit of the hidden

but she used an ahamkara wish?

[trim grotto]

https://youtu.be/gG0BMZhsGUY?si=WQsKY0iVbjUPMhSG

Also covered in the WQ CE

So Ishtar, once again, will not help with that one

However

[eager trout]

What's substitutive alloy armor made of?

[hidden pebble]

exotic weapon or armor lore above?

[trim grotto]

uno momento

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UDF2gZFAVhn6vXjVdgWXO5P1Fdb6VFSMRTyx88Im0es/edit?usp=drive_link

The CE lore

AKA The Long Answer™️

[hidden pebble]

wowzers

[eager trout]

*substitutional

[trim grotto]

It's related to the Black Garden and Sol Divisive

[eager trout]

So it's made from...Vex?

[trim grotto]

Sol Divisive Vex, probably.

Time is an ocean, vast without shore.
We shall rise before we die, and die before we have risen.
For our salvation, the universe shall be remade.
Remade until the disease has been cleansed.
And the cleanse shall beget an ocean.

[eager trout]

Isn't it just styled after them? It looks too yellow to be made of them

[trim grotto]

The armour is from Season of the Undying. With the Undying Mind of the Sol Divisive.

[eager trout]

So...

[trim grotto]

So I wouldn't expect the flavour text to talk about salvation and the cleansing of the universe if someone was just a fan of mossy bronze

[eager trout]

Could someone technically made a set of armor out of Vex that just happens to look like the Substitutional Armor set?

In Venus?

[shrewd ravine]

Why is the moon haunted?.,

[sleek matrix]

The pyramid ship causes the nightmares to appear

Because its nezarec ship

[dim minnow]

well you see, Eris was looking for answers on Savathun and her search led her to the Moon where during the Hidden Swarm's resurgence, she discovered a Pyramid on the Moon

the once-dormant Pyramid was then reawakened and sent Nightmares throughout the system, but mostly on the Moon

so, throughout the Shadowkeep campaign, we would learn more about the Nightmares and with Eris help, we managed to get inside it where the Witness spoke to us for the first time (though we did not know it was the Witness at that point)

anyways, we would learn much later that this Pyramid belinged to Nezarec, the Final God of Pain, who was a disciple of the Witness sent to Sol

and it is believed that the Nightmares were tied to Nezarec hence why they are tied to the Lunar Pyramid which belonged to him

you know, looking back, this does kind of tie in well with the Veil stuff

Eris wanted answers on Savathun which brought her to Nezarec's Pyramid

and Nezarec was the one with the Veil which Savathun stole after killing him

[eager trout]

The Pyramid in Savathun's Throne World belongs to who?

[dim minnow]

Rhulk

final boss of Vow of the Disciple

[strong tendon]

Is there a reason that Bungie has like forced Eramis into the narrative for like the past 2 years?

[trim grotto]

She's representative of the old ways of the Fallen.

[strong tendon]

But like there’s been times where it feels as if, she just shouldn’t have been there atleast to me

[trim grotto]

She's gone now

[strong tendon]

Yeah they said that before and then she came back again lol

[dim minnow]

I wish Bungie made a joke that Eramis wasn't able to leave because Shaxx turned her fueling depot into a Crucible map in ItL

[strong tendon]

If they wanna bring her back. Let it be in an expansion where we get a distress call from a distant planet and it’s Riis and it’s all beautiful because she’s remade it with the echo

[eager trout]

Well...

Wasn't she introduced 2 years ago?

Makes sense she'd appear every now and then

[strong tendon]

She was introduced. 4 years ago

[trim grotto]

4 1/2. Beyond Light.

[strong tendon]

She came back in plunder and then she was in seraph, defiance and now revenant

Plunder made sense. Seraph and defiance… eh.

She only did a meaningful thing at the end of both those seasons. Before that she did literally nothing

[eager trout]

Wait, Beyond Light was that long ago?

[trim grotto]

10 November 2020

[eager trout]

Oh

[strong tendon]

Ikr time flies

Oh my god lightfall is nearly two years old

[slim girder]

TFS is a year old.

[dim minnow]

not yet

on June 4th it will be

[slim girder]

From the original release yes

[ember storm]

You’re all ancient

[slim girder]

November this year i'll have played destiny for 10 years

[raw hazel]

My condolences

[slim girder]

Nah. I have no regrets. Loved every bit of this game since the beginning

[jagged badge]

“Forced” you mean been in stories she is relevant to?

[dim minnow]

was she really relevant to the Spire of the Watcher dungeon?

[sick yew]

I mean at the time it gave some pretty neat exposition into how she was holding up

Also the dialogue of her in Spire was like completely optional so idk if you could even count that

[fresh zephyr]

WHATS BEHIND THE DOOR ARGHH

The door inside Rhulk’s Pyramid is the fabled DCV

[slim girder]

We'll have to wait and see. But if you're curious there are some images bungie released that people are speculating about.
Like the vault door with a code that makes an interesting sentence

If i had to guess though week 3 is when we'll finally unlock the door

I feel like we just have 1 more timegated section before the end

[fresh zephyr]

Winnower?

[slim girder]

Something related to it possibly.

If the dread want it then it has to be important

Considering what they've been doing recently

[frigid sparrow]

She was relevant throughout Seraph. The whole point of her inclusion, especially after Plunder, is how beaten down her and her house have become, how the eliksni are mere subjects for The Witness and Xivu Arath. It's important especially for the moon battlegrounds, where we see one of her close friends has turned into scorn, how in the lore we see her witness the scornification first-hand, how we see the technocrat become scorn, and how she and her entire house face that threat with gods breathing down her neck. Plus, she knows tech stuff, which is useful against a foe like Rasputin. Then, in Defiance, she makes a very minor appearance, and one befitting of a post-LF and spire story. We hear in spire how she just wants us to be away from the traveler, away from gods. In defiance, when the witness left us and it's forces are scattered, she has the freedom to warn mithrax about the trap inside the cabal base, since she's abandoned the witness, abandoned that god. After that, she's entirely gone, only mentioned in a lore tab in wish about how she's leaving. I don't see her as "forced" in any way.