📚lore-discussion

[slim elk]

At this rate I do wonder if humanity will actually get an echo lol

[lofty badge]

Yee

[lofty badge]

We just need to kill Maya in a raid

[slim elk]

Honestly the biggest annoyance is they acknowledge a perfect way to demonstrate Eramis is changing in verse.. but they completely ignore it

[lofty badge]

Ye

[slim elk]

Just having her say "I still blame humanity for everything, fuck you and goodbye" while having the new magic stick macguffin

Doesn't really work given all her past efforts and no sign of any remorse

Her actually sticking around to revert the Revenants and save Fikruls victims would actually give her a solid power base to boot

[lofty badge]

Yeah

[jagged badge]

Yeah well that’s not what the Echo wanted

[lofty badge]

But she left thousands her own undead people at our mercy lol

[jagged badge]

And Eramis wanted the same thing as the Echo ultimately

[slim elk]

The Echo should not be given any consideration given it went to Fikrul first

[lofty badge]

So the Echo is fine with leaving untold about of fallen as undead with no free will?

When it could mabye Cure them

[jagged badge]

I think it’s not unreasonable to say that if you manage to gain such an immense but temperamental power, it’s best to work with it and not against it

[slim elk]

It didn't do jack shit to help us vs Fikrul even when it became clear it wanted someone else

[jagged badge]

Besides, I feel like it’s obvious that there’s not just going to be a convenient end for an entire enemy faction present in gameplay

[slim elk]

So again:
Should not be considered a factor lol

It's a bad call anyway for us to free Eramis entirely when we already have a basis for keeping hostile characters on a leash with Immaru

[jagged badge]

[slim elk]

We couldn't just stick the handcuffs back on her?

[jagged badge]

No

[slim elk]

And thus the question... "Why not"
Already got an example that shows it works

[jagged badge]

The Echo chose Eramis to rebuild Riis. This is a good thing. It’s not an issue that we let her go to do this good thing

[slim elk]

I'm not talking that part lol

I'm talking us freeing Eramis in the first place with no idea that would happen

[jagged badge]

She clearly respects Mithrax to let him lead the Eliksni of Sol, so she isn’t going to be hostile to us, even if she doesn’t like us still

She’s set in her ways, it’d be hard to get her to change. And she doesn’t need to

She can still be a bit of a bitch while also going off to do, again, that very good thing for her people

[slim elk]

Exactly why we should have kept her on a leash to help Eido instead of freeing her to cause more grief

We do it with Immaru, why not Eramis?

[jagged badge]

What are you on about?

Are you even listening to anything I’m saying?

[slim elk]

Would even had made a great scene where we intentionally let her go after seeing the Echo choose her

[slim elk]

I'm talking the end of Act 2 where we let Eramis out because Eido believes she can help with Mithrax

I'm saying there's no reason to let her free when we could just copy what we did with Immaru

[raw hazel]

If anything I don’t want to see anymore of Eramis at this point

[jagged badge]

Eramis would have never let herself be leashed and ordered like that

We let her help on her own terms, and she did

[raw hazel]

So if she wants to fuck off and be helpful elsewhere? By all means

[jagged badge]

This feels pretty obvious

[slim elk]

Incorrect.

That's why she's in the cell in the first place. She submitted to our custody

[jagged badge]

And she hated it. She was embarrassed and insulted by all of it

[slim elk]

Much like Immaru
Do you care for his opinions on the matter?

[jagged badge]

It’s not the same thing

[raw hazel]

Do you care to keep being this pedantic?

[jagged badge]

But I don’t care for this tired conversation any longer

[raw hazel]

This is just going in circles and literally nowhere else

[ember storm]

Immaru is literally a token of good will I feel like the situations differ

Eramis was just awaiting trial anyway, she was simply in a holding cell

[slim elk]

And that's the case in point. He's entirely unwilling in the matter

Eramis surrendered willingly

[ember storm]

Did she actually want to?

[slim elk]

So honestly letting her help while under supervision would actually be more merciful then letting her rot in the cell

[ember storm]

Immaru still agreed to it because it was Savathun’s orders

Eramis very much didn’t want to be there

[slim elk]

Did..
You not play the opening mission to this Episode at all?

[ember storm]

Yes and I noticed that Eramis made it very clear she didn’t like being involved with us at all

[slim elk]

She surrendered to get help from us in saving her forces from the Scorn

[ember storm]

She did it for the sake of her house

She didn’t want to

That’s the point

[slim elk]

She's her own "token of good will" lol

[ember storm]

That’s the first time she put others over herself in literal years

[slim elk]

So it makes sense she would be entirely willing to help us deal with said Scorn issue over stewing in a cell

[ember storm]

Yeah

So then when she got the echo she got an out

And left

Where’s the argument here

[slim elk]

Act 2 once again

Where we let her escape entirely instead of sticking a leash on like we do with Immaru

[ember storm]

Because we had to let her “escape” is the point

Nothing about it was sanctioned

We couldn’t afford to make it official in any capacity

[slim elk]

And that's where I ask "why" considering who's asking lol

[ember storm]

If there was a whiff of Eramis working with us behind the scenes we’d all get a talking to

[slim elk]

Zavala and Ikora were both entirely willing to let us rampage against Uldren in Forsaken against Zavalas judgement

So it's not the first time we weren't blindly following edicts

[ember storm]

Which was not officially sanctioned in any capacity

We very much put a lot at risk and he simply couldn’t do anything about it

That’s why we got zero support from anyone

[slim elk]

All I ask is what the logic is about keeping Immaru around with enough freedom to change shells and disrupt the Festival of the Lost

Vs letting Eramis help with the issue she turned herself in for

[ember storm]

Wasn’t the entire point that he did it in secret

I don’t know what you’re trying to say

Immaru literally didn’t have anything we needed him for so we just let Eris babysit him

We were forced to confide in Eramis and set her loose

[slim elk]

All I'm asking is why keeping her on a leash wasn't an option

[raw hazel]

Go ask Bungie

[slim elk]

Indeed

[ember storm]

How would you go about it in a way that doesn’t immediately let people know “oh they did this on purpose”

[empty fern]

Feeling funky, gonna cause some drama

[slim elk]

Stick them handcuffs on her and have an overseeing guard. Easy

[ember storm]

Which wasn’t sanctioned

Crow would’ve held a meeting and the consensus would’ve been no

[slim elk]

And yet he broke the rules himself to pull it

So.. sanctions ain't exactly stopping us lol

Or as he put it "let's pretend Ikora doesn't already know we did this."

[jagged badge]

We can’t officially “leash” her and have her work for us. We can unofficially aid in her escape and let her choose to aid us

Which she did

That’s the events that happened

You can’t change that, so it’s pointless to keep going on about your hypothetical

Just let it go

[ember storm]

They are when it’s very blatantly clear that they’re being broken

[jagged badge]

Don’t get why you care this much about Eramis

[ember storm]

Having impromptu field trips with a prisoner isn’t allowed

They can’t punish us for Eramis just miraculously escaping, though

And they also can’t get on our case about theoretical communications with her on missions

[slim elk]

I just find the rationale extremely weak when Crow flat out says Ikora would know we did it

Theres.. not exactly any higher authority in the city the Vanguard answer to

[slow berry]

ikora knows a lot of things

she also chooses not to act on a lot of them

we're destiny jesus she trusts us to not super fuck up

[slim elk]

Ergo my point
That's 2/3 majority in the vanguard willing to do the "blind eye"

3/4 if you count us as the "Golden Guardian"

So.. what's the opposition to keeping her on a leash?

[ember storm]

Why did Zavala make sure to say to our face “the vanguard does not condone stasis” at the end of BL and then do nothing about guardians using stasis afterward

[raw hazel]

Why can’t I believe this is not butter?

[ember storm]

Where is the funny robot guy with the horn who talks about socks

[warm acorn]

i'm excited for heresy lore

[empty fern]

I think I missed something, did vesper evolve as a dungeon over the months? Something about weapon specific codes for chests

[lost abyss]

Cayde-6 feet under, is one with the Light now

[hollow hinge]

only thing I know of is the secret codes but I don't even know what that does besides the triumph lol

[ember storm]

Doubt it, probably just one of those “the guardian does this once and miraculously knows every secret and code imaginable” type things

[empty fern]

Neat

[slim girder]

Considering what we know now about this episode maybe savathuns "the taken king will rise again" line in 2 truths and 2 lies game might actually come to pass.

[lofty badge]

yeee

what if we learn to use taken power so much we take the spirit of Oryx

[slim girder]

Imo this seems more like oryx is haunting his old home like a ghost. Like imagine if you had an all out war in some place and the ghost of the person who lived there was just watching everything.

Like his spirit is still connected to this place.

[lofty badge]

makes sense

[slim elk]

He wants his stuff back

[blazing wasp]

To clarify, because I am a little stupid, but wouldn't it be a possibility that the thingabob in the echo is actually oryx

Hence his vague presence?

[lofty badge]

or a memory of him?

since the two other echos did have memories of other people

[ember storm]

eh i dont think it was supposed to be that far ahead

really think it was just referencing GotD with the logic of "this will happen given the current circumstances unless you do something" so it wasn't a lie

[slim girder]

No. Echoes contain the memory of a civilisation that was consumed by the witness. Oryx was killed by us.
However this echos effect on the dread seems to have caused his spirit of sorts to return as it changes the dreadnought

[blazing wasp]

ah, i was under the impression only oryx's fleet attacked riis

[slim girder]

I think it's possible bungie could have just looked back and then factored it into the whole "Savathun always plans ahead" type deal.
Not everything has to be planned but some things just line up. Like for example the traveler rising above earth looking exactly like the cover art for destiny 1

Not planned but just ended up coming together

[sleek matrix]

Yes victims of the pyramids mainly

But i wonder what the next echo will have

And how will that relate

[sleek matrix]

This was planned

Traveler has left every time before

But it stayed this time because there was no other choice

[jagged badge]

Eh not exactly

The Traveler left us in the Dark Future. There’s absolutely a choice for it to have left us

It stayed because it wanted to make a stand

[sleek matrix]

Not in this timeline

[sleek matrix]

Because it had no choice

[ember storm]

when you go all in you just stay until you lose

[sleek matrix]

My point exactly

[jagged badge]

Again, it did have a choice

[ember storm]

traveler hasn't lost yet so it hasn't left

[jagged badge]

Because it has left us

[ember storm]

traveler lost in the dark future so it left

als it's sorta like half comatose now

[sleek matrix]

But what happened there the turning point for that

There was a pivotal moment

[ember storm]

yeah zavala got a beard and the traveler went "ew"

[sleek matrix]

I would say rasputin sacrifice also contributed

[jagged badge]

Wdym?

I’m talking about the Golden Age. Long before any of Elsie’s divergent timelines

It could have easily left humanity, but it didn’t

It chose to stay and to make a stand

[sleek matrix]

Yea sure

I'm not on about back then

It could of easily left yea

I'm on about the rasputin season

[jagged badge]

Nothing changes there though. It could have left and fled the Black Fleet

It chose to stand and try and fight

Unfortunately, Lightfall shows how well that went for it

But my point is, it stayed when it didn’t have to

When it could have chosen self-preservation

[sleek matrix]

Its main goal is that too

One of the reasons it gave us ghosts

To empower us and protect traveler in return

[ember storm]

The events of seraph are defined as the traveler simply heading into orbit to face the witness head-on with no intention of running

https://youtu.be/7BLYLVaZVQ0?t=84&si=wvXaWWwUJcG5OKaY

Zavala narration confirms it

[sleek matrix]

Yes

[ember storm]

No running in this timeline

[jagged badge]

(That being said, part of the motive for leaving the Eliksni, and potentially other species too, was to preserve them. It recognised its presence endangered them so tried to leave in the hopes the Black Fleet would follow it and they’d be spared)

[jagged badge]

I’d disagree

Ghosts are for humanity’s benefit. For humanity to defend themselves

Humanity then chose to protect the Traveler. To live beneath it and defend it as well

[sleek matrix]

Sure it may have been one of the reasons

[jagged badge]

The Traveler makes no requests of its Lightbearers, allowing them free choice to prove the quality of who they are on their own

[sleek matrix]

But it must of known ppl would start to worship it

Since its happened prior

It didn't want that to happen

[ember storm]

Traveler doesn’t even really understand the concept, no?

Does it have the capacity to recognize the pattern?

[sleek matrix]

Yes not fully but it had a feeling of it

With the darkness entering the traveler that may have changed even more now

It may be learning new concepts

[jagged badge]

Anyway, my point was, the Traveler didn’t “not have a choice” in staying

[sleek matrix]

Since darkness is also based on memories

[jagged badge]

That was an active choice of the Traveler’s to remain with and support humanity

[sleek matrix]

I'm wondering just as the saga end does anything change with the traveler

[ember storm]

Ok the visualization of guardians and dread having to run around creating/destroying cysts inside the traveler’s brain and influencing it like brain cells is a funny visual

[sleek matrix]

Or is that it

[ember storm]

Like you complete a round of overthrow and then the traveler suddenly learns what trickle down economics are

[jagged badge]

😭

[sleek matrix]

[lime tiger]

whats the current situation with xivu

[sleek matrix]

She is weaken because of eris banishing xivu from her own throne world

Xivu is mortal

[lime tiger]

ok cool

[sleek matrix]

The only problem is xivu gets stronger the more we fight her

[lime tiger]

yea

[sleek matrix]

So its not gonna be easy to take her out

[lime tiger]

prolly gonna be new dlc after heresy? or

[sleek matrix]

Doubt it

We're meant to wrap up the current saga

After heresy

[lime tiger]

yea. thats why im unsure. like. xivu is still chillin and imo it makes no snese to end that in a season

[sleek matrix]

I see xivu being killed off

[hollow hinge]

In the sense that it chose to stay and create the ghosts, sure

But once the ghosts were made, it wasn't going anywhere

[sleek matrix]

Savathun not so much

[hollow hinge]

Whether it wanted to or not

[hollow hinge]

I pray for the day this happens

[sleek matrix]

Its also xivu doesn't have enough character development for a big dlc

Like savathun did

[lime tiger]

ehhhhh i disagree there

[sleek matrix]

Savathun was teased back in d1

[hollow hinge]

The most overdone ahh villain of the week

[lime tiger]

so was xivu

[sleek matrix]

There was little references but the main focus was savathun

[lime tiger]

until only a bit prior to stuff before witch queen, xivu and sav were about on par with what we know

[hollow hinge]

Noooo lmao

Not even close

[sleek matrix]

This is just not true

Far from it

Xivu was barely mentioned

We knew of her existence yes

[jagged badge]

And in the sense it stayed after vanquishing Ghaul. And it stayed to push the Black Fleet away again in Arrivals. And it stayed to fight in Seraph/Lightfall

It consistently chose to stay instead of leaving

When we know it absolutely could have left us

[lime tiger]

April Update (Mentioned only)
Destiny 2 (Mentioned only)
Warmind (Mentioned only)
Season of the Drifter (Mentioned only)
Season of Opulence (Mentioned only)
Season of Arrivals (Mentioned only)

according to destinypedia, these are the only appearences prior to witch queen that savathun has that xivu does not.

thats pretty on par

theres 59 references used for sav and 25 for xivu. given that, yes, we do know a lot more about sav from WQ, that isnt surprising. id have to do a lot more effort to check specifics

[hollow hinge]

It's so much more than just "references"

She was built up and hyped in the lore tabs

[lime tiger]

... thats a reference

[blazing wasp]

Inaccurate and/or a lack of proper information and context? On destinypedia? Why I've never...

[hollow hinge]

Just to name some things the strike Savathun's Song, then her song being sung by people in the tower

[lime tiger]

11 xivu references in d1. 17 sav.

[blazing wasp]

A entire dlc about savathun is indeed referencing her but I feel like it's downplaying how much it relates to savathun

[hollow hinge]

My point is that it was deeper than just a mere reference

[lime tiger]

did i say they had it all? no. its just the best way i can show

[blazing wasp]

Not what you're saying, I know, I was giving an example

[lime tiger]

i feel like you dont understand what reference is

[blazing wasp]

No I'm just poking fun at destinypedia because that's easy

Because destinypedia is horseshit

The light.gg of lore

[lime tiger]

hah yea. i get that

[blazing wasp]

And that's easy to mock

[lime tiger]

tbh decently thorough here on its citations at least.

[hollow hinge]

All we've got about Xivu is she's the Hive God of War and she destroyed Torobatl
And that we've had her be the background villain for several seasons and yet we've learned essentially jackshit about her

[lime tiger]

beyond objectivley false.

[jagged badge]

We know a good deal about Xivu

What she’s like and such

[hollow hinge]

Yes but compared to Savathun? and considering how often she's been the villain of the week?

It's not much in comparison

[jagged badge]

Her contradictory relationship with the Sword Logic, for example. She’s a fervent follower of it yet has thoughts that go against it, like her grief for Oryx and desire for vengeance there

[lime tiger]

again. im not disputing that we know more about sav. but thats soley due to witch queen til now.
my arguement was that as of shortly prior to that, sav and xivu were roughly on par for what we knew

[hollow hinge]

We knew plenty about Savathun prior to WQ

[lime tiger]

didnt say we didtn

[hollow hinge]

I'd argue more than we currently know about Xivu

[hollow hinge]

That's literally what you've been trying to argue for a while now

[lime tiger]

only by a hairsbreadth

[hollow hinge]

That she was merely referenced a handful of times

[lime tiger]

...no. on par with eachother is not indicative of not known much.

[hollow hinge]

When it was so much more than that

[hollow hinge]

That is still not accurate

[lime tiger]

how so

[sleek matrix]

Savathun was also involved more in destiny 2 she was partly responsible for the curse on dreaming city

She has been scheming for years against us

[lime tiger]

as has xivu?

[slim elk]

If there's a time for Xivu to show up in the flesh, it's in Heresy

[sleek matrix]

What has she done directly?

[sleek matrix]

Yes

For sure

[lime tiger]

Taken apparently obedient to Xivu Arath also invaded the Dreaming City after its unsealing

[sleek matrix]

Sure

But savathun was the bigger threat

[lime tiger]

ok. that has no bearing on my argument

[sleek matrix]

That's why we had the big dlc for her first imo

[slim elk]

Xivus a hammer.

Good at war, but her schemes aren't all that complicated

[sleek matrix]

Yea xivu is the muscle savathun the brains

And oryx was the explorer

[lime tiger]

i though oryx was the muscle.
i cant remember if this was anything "confirmed"
but the way i see it,
sav is a warlock, oryx is a titan and xivu is a hunter.

[sleek matrix]

Combined its no wonder they were a force to be unmatched for eons

[sleek matrix]

Oryx was the navigator

He wanted to explore and find out secrets of the universe

[slim elk]

Plus recent events show she's a bit of a coward.

Soon as she lost her immortality she ran off and hid in a corner to cry. Soon as a fight became even she refuses to show her face

[lime tiger]

i could see that oryx and xivu switch but, i think oryx being a hunter just fits less. hes a taker and a brawler. xivu is a hider and a trickster, but in a different way than sav.

[sleek matrix]

Oryx had deep understanding of the darkness and his ability to navigate through unknown relams of the universe

[lime tiger]

oryx would hit you over the head. xivu would get someone to slip a knife in your ribs, and sav would poison you.

[sleek matrix]

His dreadnought is the best example of it

[lime tiger]

yea. i see that. but i think thats only 1 hunter quality of his. out of his many more titan one

[sleek matrix]

Combat is no bearing on this tbh

Its kinda irrelevant

[lime tiger]

i disagree

the 3 classes have disntict fighting styles. as do the 3 hive gods.

[sleek matrix]

Gameplay and lore don't directly connect alot of the time

[sleek matrix]

For gameplay purposes yea I guess

That doesn't matter in terms of what there characters are

In the lore

[lime tiger]

even in lore?

[sleek matrix]

We all know oryx as the navigator

Savathun with her schemes

[lime tiger]

the only other thing i could say for xivu not being a "hunter" is she took the knight morph. so

[sleek matrix]

And xivu is God of war

[lime tiger]

i put 2 against xivu being the hunter and many more for her being it

[sleek matrix]

Out of all of them oryx was the most powerful when he was alive

[lime tiger]

sure, i dont think that totally has any bearing tho

[slim elk]

All this is presuming they make more Hive God Guardians lol

My money is Xivus worm eating her alive

[sleek matrix]

For good reason xivu is not getting a dlc she just doesn't have much depth

Compared to savathun or even oryx

[lime tiger]

again. neither did sav until just before WQ. heck oryx just showed up out of the blue too. we knew wayyy less about him

and he got the DLC that saved destiny

[sleek matrix]

But all the signs pointed to us getting a dlc of sav

Ppl were waiting for years for it

[lime tiger]

and they dont for us getting one of xivu?

[sleek matrix]

I wonder when did you start playing

[lime tiger]

d1 beta

i was like. 11

ps3

[sleek matrix]

[lime tiger]

sat there killing sepiks so much til the game came out

[slim elk]

Put it this way.

We had the big "Make Xivu weak" arc in a season without so much as seeing Xivu

You think we would at least get a glimpse

[sleek matrix]

Yea

That's also a big reason I don't see a dlc for her tbh

[lime tiger]

didnt we also have that with sav? sorta, i mean yea she was around "more" than xivu, but she was just an icecube

[sleek matrix]

Maybe in the long future if we retake torobatil

[slim elk]

The issue with Xivu now is dragging her out of whatever hole she's hiding in

[sleek matrix]

Who knows

[slim elk]

If her worm doesn't eat her first

[lime tiger]

one of the reasons i vote hunter tbh

[sleek matrix]

Yea

She is fucked

The worms have a much tighter grip on xivu

[lime tiger]

the big thing we did against xivu was kill her pet hydra. i forget his name

[sleek matrix]

Savathun can ignore the worm gods

[lime tiger]

his name was floating around a longggg time too iirc

[jagged badge]

?

If you mean Quria, Quria was not related to Xivu

Savathûn commanded Quria since she commanded the Taken for a time

[lime tiger]

Yea that one I think

[jagged badge]

And it was originally Oryx who Took Quria

[lime tiger]

Yea ik that. I thought sav helped us a bit with quiria cause xivu did something to it. I forget the details

Additionally, Savathûn would lose control of the Taken after Quria's destruction, which would quickly fall under the control of their orignal master for Xivu Arath to use.[24]

Maybe this is what I’m thinking of

Was there not like. A totally big xivu reveal after we kill it? I swear there was.

[jagged badge]

Savathûn was using Quria when we killed it

[lime tiger]

yea ik that. but i swear there was something tied to xivu. maybe that was where sav explained xivu was why she was helping us?

been too long

[jagged badge]

Wdym helping us?

[lime tiger]

well, using us is a better phrasing hah

[jagged badge]

When we killed Quria, Savathûn was using it to orchestrate the Endless Night and command both Taken and Vex to cause us strife

[lime tiger]

yea, ik when it was. thats why im like. wtf am i thinking of.
cause i remember hearing xivu and i was

https://tenor.com/view/thats-it-yes-thats-it-that-right-there-omg-that-thats-what-i-mean-gif-17579879

unironically hit that pose. i remember doing it
butttt i have brain damage and so legit could just be one of those moments for me

[lost abyss]

I honestly feel like it'd be a disservice to Xivu as an antagonist, relegating her to almost exclusively supplementary content. Her siblings have their own titled expansion. Even, though we are moving away from traditional content releases, they could make room for her in the future.

The Hive plots are also pretty popular, so it'd be surprising to see them not capitalize on a release that could potentially perform as well as Witch Queen, and Taken King did.

[sleek matrix]

That's if destiny is going strong by then

[lost abyss]

True

[sleek matrix]

I would guarantee the teams would of wanted to do a xivu expansion but the timing just didn't make it happen

Each expansion since beyond light has been getting a delay

The development time has shifted and the game is starting to show cracks

[fast tapir]

i was 8 or 9 playing it 💀

[trim grotto]

I never even heard of Destiny until Forsaken

[slim girder]

I knew about destiny from the start and I honestly can't even remember some times in my life where it wasn't there now.

[ember storm]

Got destiny for some reason during 2015

I don’t remember why

[hollow hinge]

They are popular but I just cannot see a scenario where a Xivu expansion is received even remotely as well as Taken King was, let alone WQ

WQ is still regarded as the best expansion that Bungie has made

[lost abyss]

I don't see why not

Maybe not soon, with the stuff going on at Bungie, yeah. But, if they keep this card, they'll have a chance at another one. Even if it doesn't do as good, it's still historically, a well enjoyed plot. That alone is a reason.

[empty fern]

Lore topic of the day

Rumor is (npc tower lines)
A shard of the traveler is in Europe

[dim minnow]

uhh...

yeah?

[trim grotto]

Prove it

[empty fern]

Nuh uh

[tardy elbow]

You mean the one in the EDZ?

[trim grotto]

never heard of it

[slim girder]

I never really stopped to compare how big the cabal and eliksni are compared to us. I know Mithrax and Caiatl are the leaders so obviously they're bigger but still. Even the regular ones are bigger than us.

I think only the basic kinds of vex and hive acolytes are the same size as us

[fresh zephyr]

goblins are taller than us

[slim girder]

My mistake then

[fresh zephyr]

I have always wondered if acolytes are taller than us

but I can't find anything on that

[lofty badge]

i do wonder....can taken be permantly killed? Like i know of some lore that says Taken can, but i also vaugely recall a final shape lore tab that said Taken can't be permakilled and are just banished?

or am i just really confused

[slim girder]

It depends the taken I believe. Though I haven't looked at that sort of lore in a while so I don't think I can give a concrete answer

[lofty badge]

fair and makes sense

[lofty badge]

i will just go with some named powerful taken can somehow come back and lesser more cannon fodder taken dies when blammed by a guardian gun or fist

[empty fern]

Edz? Man this guys got intel on the future updates

[lofty badge]

lol

[slim girder]

I like to think it's the opposite. Bringing back fodder enemies is easy but powerful taken stay dead

[lofty badge]

oh?

[empty fern]

Big and small enemies

[ember storm]

Immaru is such a wet cat

I want to hit him with a whiffle bat

[slim girder]

Wonder if we'll get any lore on him since this new episode is about the hive pantheon. Like just 1 lore entry or something to update us on what he's doing even if it's just sitting in container.

[ember storm]

Unless Savathun is involved I doubt he will be

Episodes have had like 5 people involved max

We already know Eris drifter and Sloane will take the forefront so

[slim girder]

Oryx (kinda) and this specific dread with the echo are the current enemies we know. Again though this is supposed to be about the hive pantheon so i fully expect some signs of xivu and savathun to be around. Probably not full on appearances but more influence.
Like it could be during act 2 or 3.

[lean comet]

Do you think that they’ll actually bring oryx back since the episode is called heresy and heresy usually refers to Nokris and necromancy

[ember storm]

his face is there

[empty fern]

His spiritual face

It what’s with the chains and tentacles

[ember storm]

season of the deeper

[empty fern]

Real

[sleek matrix]

In a spirt form yes

We can call it a echo

[lofty badge]

i assume the hive we will face will either be remnants of Oryx's brood on the dreadnaught, lucent hive, Xivu's horde or some hive that is for some reason loyal to the new dread?

[ember storm]

oops all taken

[empty fern]

Gameplay showed all taken I think?

Though purple would be a nice return

[empty fern]

What’s going on in this? Is this suppose to be Eris during her time in the hellmouth? (Featured art from twab)

[lofty badge]

they did say we would fight hive, taken and dread, and we did see some dread like grim in the gameplay they showed

[frigid sparrow]

//AI-FS: When Taken die, where do they go?

//IKO: Back to the Ascendant Plane.

//IKO: Then they begin the journey again.

via enigma protocol

[ember storm]

eris skulking about while toland meets his favorite soundcloud rappers

[empty fern]

Damn

Toland a real one

[ember storm]

toland's ghost was honestly more emo than he was which is impressive

[frigid sparrow]

I am sure he is a kind gentleman who looks out for his friends and hopes for them to become their best selves

[ember storm]

didn't think it possible

[ember storm]

[empty fern]

May his 400 page diary be skipped as a ghosts 3 second dialogue

[frigid sparrow]

but I like his voice :(

[empty fern]

We all do, but he’s sheepish

[ember storm]

ghost read his entire life's work in 3 seconds and then went "this guy sucked"

[frigid sparrow]

surely he will come back at least as a side character this episode like variks or even spider PLEASE I'LL EVEN TAKE HIM IN A ROLE LIKE SPIDER'S THIS EPISODE

[empty fern]

Gotta wonder what was inside it when these were still around

[ember storm]

probably cocoons for the moths

big moths

[frigid sparrow]

broth for drifter soup

[ember storm]

or actually wasn't there something about hive using some domesticated creatures to eat their ways into the ground to make their tunnels

[empty fern]

Hive moth unit retconned to the abyss

[ember storm]

or am i making that up

[empty fern]

Probably making it up? Ask dovah for flavor texts

[frigid sparrow]

oh hell nah the hive got the steven universe lore

[ember storm]

i swear i heard it from somewhere

[empty fern]

I mean the cabal have a machine very similar to irl tunnel diggers

[ember storm]

cabal drills are so cool i wish drills existed irl

[ember storm]

only know about those because of batman arkham knight

[empty fern]

Kek

I wonder

Do fallen even make tunnels? Or are they so bug like they just set up in any crevice

[ember storm]

they just build a bunch of ugly architecture

look at exodus crash

[frigid sparrow]

Do not make fun of them they are space pirates :(

[lofty badge]

Sad

[frigid sparrow]

sad but it also means WE MAY GET QURIA IN LIKE 5 YEAAAARS YAAAAY

[lofty badge]

Kek

[ember storm]

if nothing else i'm glad we finally got an answer for why a bunch of shitters like keksis just randomly reappeared

but also it's kind of weird

is it a throne world situation where killing them in the ascendant plane is a true death?

or do they just go DEEPER

[frigid sparrow]

it's especially weird because he just.. ends up back in the prison?

[ember storm]

well he died there

ascendant plane is basically just a different version of the normal world

so i guess

there's no main respawn point

they probably just sit there biding their time until they get called back into the normal world

[frigid sparrow]

but we can move within it and enter places we normally couldn't

[ember storm]

and he got called by the dread

so i guess he just never left the confines of the prison

to be fair it is just in the middle of a random asteroid field with no solid ground, so

not much to traverse

no ley line connection or anything

[frigid sparrow]

saturday morning cartoon skit of keksis dying and trying to leave the prison of elders and just ending up back inside various cells

[frigid sparrow]

okay but to be fair we also were capable of going into an aerial prison through the ascendant plane so there is some leniency

[ember storm]

because we're goated with the sauce (and mara specifically made us a path)

[frigid sparrow]

wait she actually moves shit in the ascendant plane I thought she was ust keeping it open for us

[empty fern]

No one told me this was based off a real painting

(Also it was omar)

Ah can I show that?

[fast tapir]

the donkey in the original painting represents ignorance

funny that Toland takes the place of the donkey

[fresh zephyr]

Is there any lore on if the vex bend space and time to their will or something like that?

[lost abyss]

iirc They don't really "Bend" space and time, so much so as they just perceive time in such a way that allows them to make retroactive changes. Like seeing a timeline all at once.

The Vault of Glass was the only place that allowed for changes like that, and it was exclusive to that location.

[tough badge]

is that the farm?

YO!!! that is a cold ss right there

[ember storm]

No lol

Farm is in like Sweden

[tough badge]

oh

whats that then

[ember storm]

Literally just some place

[tough badge]

sigh

when the lore channel doesnt know lore

smh

[ember storm]

Burn

[tough badge]

this this just some place too?

[ember storm]

What do you expect

You’re in the city

Not every square inch of human life is behind the walls

Outskirts are a thing

[tough badge]

but...but...but...

its not safe out there!

[slim girder]

Hawthorne survived

[tough badge]

erm she had a bird to protect her

ok ok

i got another question

i saw like some orange lines in the sky on some planet that looked like this

[ember storm]

Would that planet happen to be earth in real life

[tough badge]

no 😭

actually

[hollow hinge]

What happened to taking screenshots......

[tough badge]

it might have been the cosmodrome (or neomuna or europa) in game

[tough badge]

?

[hollow hinge]

If these are screenshots then they're blurry as shit

[tough badge]

i cant remember where it was

[hollow hinge]

Genuinely thought you took these with your phone

[tough badge]

nah im just taking pics of stuff super far away or the sky

[tough badge]

just super far

[empty fern]

Lore for the 2 pike drivers when?

[ember storm]

Arrested for not respecting safety laws

[eager trout]

Neptune?

[tough badge]

possibly

i thought it was rasputin or something

[trim grotto]

We'll need a bit of context. We don't even know where you're referring to.

[eager trout]

Somehow, Oryx returned

[empty fern]

We will find out… in 4 days

Oh but probably

Memory of oryx from the dreadnaught due to it use to be his throneworld

Compliments to the darkness shard

[lofty badge]

is the farm not in germany with the rest of the EDZ region we get to vist

like it feels like the eDZ we vist is on mainland Europe

[trim grotto]

Actually the patrol zone of the EDZ is around the area of the Zervreilasee Dam in Switzerland

It is rather close to the German border though

[lofty badge]

oh okay so close enough

[slim girder]

The bungie devs said the new exotic barrow dyad wasn't a weapon of sorrow but a precursor in a way to one. Also that it has some secrets.

Super excited if that's any kind of lore on that topic.

What if this ends up being like revision zero where it will start to change its shape as part of an exotic mission.

Feel like it is the weapon from the exotic mission of the episode.

[trim grotto]

Well, the Weapons of Sorrow were forged by a specialised Hive smith. I expect this may be a callback to that, somehow.

[slim girder]

Enkaar was the hive weapon maker.
If it's a call back to them maybe this weapon is a prototype or something.

Although the fact it looks like a prehistoric fossil makes me think it's something else

Another thing I noticed is it strangely reminds me of the yellow aesthetic and fossilized shells of Io and with blight all over it which we know io also had

[lofty badge]

do the house of dusk fallen on the moon worship the nightmares that manafest as some powerful fallen leaders and figures?

[slim girder]

No

They're only trying to survive but nowadays I don't think they'd even be there. But unfortunately bungie can't update the entire game to match the current events of the story.

[lofty badge]

oh okay, so lorewise you would say they not there anymore?

[slim girder]

Yes. In the current events of the game I feel like that whole sector of fallen would be gone. Seems almost all eliksni have been folded into house of light, eramis house or working for spider

[lofty badge]

or just being outlaws with house of dusk logos

at the end of Revenant Spider did talk about us putting down any upstarts who did't like Mithrax

but then again we don't know how many fallen were turned into revenant scorn

mabye so many died a bunch of formerly hostile outlaw fallen groups went "screw it" and joined house light, or spider or Eremis for safety

[modest berry]

Do guardians get to choose if they're a warlock,hunter, or titan? Or are they just assigned it by the traveller?

[slim girder]

It's not something that's assigned. It's more just based on personality and who you are as a person

[modest berry]

Oh ok

[ember storm]

You can simply do nothing like drifter does

[eager trout]

The secrets are probably related to the perk that says "this weapon resonates with your choices"

[dim minnow]

it doesn't look like a crafted weapon

unless that slot next to the infusion slot is for retrieving the pattern

but still, it doesn't look like a crafted weapon

[eager trout]

How exactly does a "crafted weapon" look?

[dim minnow]

like in the menu

there's also a little icon on the corner of its little image

[eager trout]

Oh

[dim minnow]

also a stat showing its current level

and even its birthday

[eager trout]

Right

[trim grotto]

It's also the dev version. It might not be the crafted variant.

Like how they're all 2040 power

[dim minnow]

do crafted exotics even have non-crafted variants?

like the ones you get from first completing their respective missions

[trim grotto]

It's a Dev build
Who knows

[trim grotto]

They become crafted once you extract the pattern

[eager trout]

Too bad the funny wheel gun is locked behind a paywall

[dim minnow]

yes exactly, do they not have the crafted weapon icons and such when you first obtain them?

[trim grotto]

I can't say I ever paid that much attention to them

[trim grotto]

I mean, yeah
90% of the game is DLC

It's kind of par for the course here

[dim minnow]

if the smg is the dungeon exotic then that means we will have 2 exotic strand weapons that are tied to Oryx lore-wise

both coming from dungeons

which would mean I would have 2 nickels, but it's weird that it happened twice

[eager trout]

What's the first?

[dim minnow]

Navigator from GotD

on an unrelated note, I just realized we have at least 1 exotic trace rifle for each element now

Arc - Coldheart, Divinity, and Lodestar
Solar - Prometheus Lens
Void - Ruinous Effigy and Wavesplitter
Stasis - Ager's Scepter
Strand - Navigator
Kinetic - Microcosm

[eager trout]

Lodestar is the new one, right?

[tardy elbow]

Yes, it's the season pass weapon for Heresy

[eager trout]

I just wonder how you reload the wheel...

[dim minnow]

you pull the mag out from the back

[dim minnow]

Optimus Prime?

[trim grotto]

yeah it's in the vidja

[dim minnow]

kind of like Ostea Striga or other smgs with similar frames

[tough badge]

Before time began, there was the Cube. We know not where it come from, only that it holds the power to create world and fill them with life.

https://tenor.com/view/optimus-prime-griddy-fortnite-fortnite-dance-gif-10671681376985389771

[hollow hinge]

It isn't

[dim minnow]

kinda figured it might not be, but it would be funny if it was

[maiden matrix]

was the helm destroyed in the latest chapter stuff? im trying to catch up on echoes lol and i dont remember it being destroyed. yes or no please, don't want how it was destroyed

[dim minnow]

the HELM crashed due to the events that occur in Revenant's prologue

[maiden matrix]

tytyty

[slim girder]

I don't think they'd reveal the dungeon weapon until it was close to the actual dungeon. Icebreaker was just a unique case because 10 year anniversary and stuff.

[sweet locust]

I did vespers host for the first time recently, can someone explain what that dungeon was about?

What’s with the yellow lightning.

Does it actually take place on Europa cause through the dungeon I didn’t see anything that looked like Europa at all.

[trim grotto]

It's in Europa's orbit.

[sweet locust]

What’s with the big yellow arc circle machine thing

[trim grotto]

We don't know much. It's a portal of some sort, and the corruption once stored within the station took on hosts such as Atraks and had them construct it. A message was sent through, and one was sent back.
It's mysterious and dangerous.

It's also shut down thanks to the efforts of us and the repaired station AI

[dim minnow]

you can see Europa from the dungeon if you look in the right direction in certain sections

[sweet locust]

Maybe a portal to the new frontiers?

[dim minnow]

the dungeon takes place in Vesper station which is a sister station to the Morningstar (where part of Deep Stone Crypt takes place in)

[sweet locust]

Perhaps whatever is on the other side could be a big bad.

[sweet locust]

Is there a reason it recognizes some weapon AI?

[dim minnow]

I have an idea on what the Anomaly could be related to

[dim minnow]

so you're referring to Soteria who resides in Heiarchy of Needs

[sweet locust]

Yes

[dim minnow]

ok, so Vesper Central is an AI made by braytech

while Soteria is an AI made by Braytech with Vex tech from Ishtar Collective

and over the course of the quests and triumphs in the dungeon, we restore Vesper Central's control over the station, allowing her to become her true self, Astraea

you see, Clovis Bray deliberately neutered Astraea's ability to maintain the station so he could crash the station into Europa to ensure the secrets within could not be uncivered when the time comes

he also kept the knowledge of her sister AIs from her

Soteria was one of these "sisters"

hence why Astraea will recognize Soteria when we bring that specific exotic bow into the station

[sweet locust]

Thx for the explanation.

I hope they keep building story on whatever was happening their in frontiers.

[dim minnow]

I have a theory on what the Anomaly (the giant portal thing) could relate to

[sweet locust]

What? Sounds like something simile to the flood from halo.

[dim minnow]

you're thinking of the Corruption

ok, so we don't know for sure where the Corruption came from, but we do know that when the Morningstar collided with Vesper station on its collision course to Europa, a remaining copy of Atraks-1 ended up on there which would be taken over by the Corruption

now becoming the Corrupted Puppeteer, it stalked Vesper Station until House Salvation refugees found their way there after stealing a ketch

then it would gradually find and assimilate the members of this group until they all became "additional limbs" fot the Corruption to control

[sweet locust]

You’re saying it was looking for extra “body parts” to accomplish the things it was trying to do?

[dim minnow]

if by body parts you mean lackeys to do its work then yes

[sweet locust]

Correct.

[dim minnow]

so after the Fallen were all under its control, it would command them to build the Anomaly

which I assume involved using the stolen Vex cube thing that was supposed to be held in that chamber we pass by at the start

hence why the Anomaly looks very vex-like

[sweet locust]

It’s funny how often insanely devastating events could almost come to pass in sol before we stop them, but it’s not talked about much because it’s not the focus of the season.

If we are going back to rhulks pyramid, you already know we are gonna be in another “STOP THIS BEFORE EVERYTHING WE KNOW AND LOVE IS DESTROYED” situation.

[dim minnow]

they actually said reality itself will be at stake too on the official dungeon race page

[sweet locust]

Yep

[dim minnow]

so anyways, as I was saying about my theory

there was this old grimoire card from D1 that had 9 different proposals as to what the Nine are

however, we later find out that none of these proposals are correct

however, the entities in these proposals did still exist

for instance, one of the proposals was that the Nine were nine lone Ghosts who ventured out into the Heliopause to meditate

while these Ghosts are not the Nine, we do know that these nine Ghosts do exist

according to Trials of the Nine item lore tabs

so...

[sweet locust]

You believe it was the ghosts on the other side of that portal?

[dim minnow]

no

another one of these proposals stated that the Nine came from a transmission

what I'm saying is that it could be a different specific proposal in the grimoire card

[dim minnow]

this transmission coming from the Corona-Borealis Supercluster

while the Nine did not come from this supercluster, they do reference it through a "Dark Horse" (not the Starhorse though this equine is also cosmic in design)

it refers to the Dark Horse Nebula which is near the supercluster

and I recall there being a voice line somewhere where either the Emissary or Xur tell us to listen to the supercluster's direction

so what I'm suggesting is that the signal the Corruption tried to send through the Anomaly and the one we received back from it were sent to/from the Corona Borealis Supercluster

and perhaps the Corruption arrived from there as well

[sweet locust]

This sounds pretty valid, I can see this working since lore outside of sol has been pretty quiet, I can see this as bungie trying to set up a reason to venture new frontiers.

[dim minnow]

and it would be a good way to bring the Nine back into the story

[lofty badge]

intresting

now i kinda wanna see this corruption returning and taking over other enemies to use against us

[slim girder]

Speaking of the nine I'm still curious if we'd ever see the galaxy pools.
Surely this random location only accessible by oob stuff has to be used for something.
I think the last we heard of the nine we asked them a question in prophecy and then they just went to see what would happen because they're just bored.

The nine have not been relevant since prophecy.

[lyric karma]

What happened to planets taken from us after witness' demise? Nothing?

[jagged badge]

As far as we know, Io and Mercury are still missing

I feel it would’ve been a bigger deal already if they’d returned

[trim grotto]

Titan was returned after Root of Nightmares, whole and intact, and Mars of course was returned prematurely by Savathûn, still covered in the scars of time.

[lofty badge]

man we have to wait four more days before it comes out..

[lost abyss]

Eris and Ikora would've definitely made it known, given their respective history on that Moon.

[lofty badge]

yee

but why did the witness take mars in the first place?

was it important because of Rasputin main core being there

[hollow hinge]

it was trying to take all of the Sol planets

right?

[lofty badge]

it did't park Pyramids on all the planets and moons

the other planets had some special stuff to them

Io was the last place the Traveler touched before the collasped

and titan had a Arsa hiding on it

[jagged badge]

The Witness was searching for Neomuna

[lofty badge]

ah

[jagged badge]

Searching the time rifts on Mars for Rasputin’s old databases

[lofty badge]

makes sense

[slim elk]

Can probably say the same for Mercury with the Infinite Forest

All the simulations and predicted futures

[spiral sorrel]

Not exactly lore as much as it is a cool detail imo, but im 85% certain the "hearts" of the neomuna citiziens are the different elements/subclasses

[ember storm]

That was the intent

But Vance sealed it from the inside

As Asher did with Io and the pyramidion

So instead of relying on vex records the witness had to go searching for humanity’s (thus SotW)

[fresh zephyr]

Do we think the Winnower is going to be revealed or name dropped in Heresy?

I've watched some Byf, and I can see why people think it. But I also thought the Winnower was too big time to care about literally anything going on

Surely the Winnower is THE Darkness? How do you damage, let alone attack something of that nature

I always thought it was above conflict. Forces of nature in conflict doesn't sound very godly of them

[slim elk]

The games changed

The Gardener has Darkness inside of it and its been changing

About time it makes a direct move

[fresh zephyr]

Oh shit yeah

[slim elk]

Of course we are falling back into the "react, not proactive" bit where Guardians are responding to shit going down...
... how have we not gotten our hands on an Echo despite tracking the things?

[fresh zephyr]

But surely the Winnower doesn't even need to try? The Witness almost obliterated us, and it wasn't even focused on us inside the Pale Heart. The Winnower is like 100x more powerful than even the Witness as a cosmic force, so how does a combat scenario even work, or begin

[slim elk]

You presume it wants to combat us

[fresh zephyr]

That's what I meant before, I thought the Winnower literally didn't care. Conflict is absolutely nothing to something like a force of nature.

As long as the flower game is played, that's all it cares about. It gives life to stuff like the Witness, and grants Oryx the power to further the game. But besides that, it's not one for "muhahaha fear me"

[slim elk]

And now heres a chance to change the game entirely with all the Darkness inside the Traveler

[fresh zephyr]

The Dread needs a new face

[hazy veldt]

If I understand correctly, witness could use the deep as a discord voice channel, but by communing with deep oryx spoke to the deep itself

[blazing wasp]

"the deep" is just hive speak for the darkness

and the darkness is a completely and utterly neutral force, emphasis on force
what oryx spoke to was an entity, sapient and capable of speech

or some form of communication

[slim elk]

Winnower is to the Darkness as to the Gardener is to the Light

[sudden sinew]

I hope we team up with the winnower, I don’t like the gardener

[blazing wasp]

why would that be, the winnower has not really done anything, the gardener has done nothing but assist us

hell, the only reason our character exists is because of the gardener

[ember storm]

Gardener has always tried to help life exist, winnower actively hopes all life in the universe will die save for the strongest thing

[blazing wasp]

to clarify, the winnower hasnt actually done anything to make this happen, yes?

like they havent gone out and begun killing things

[sudden sinew]

Because the winnower is cooler, the gardener is a coward who only assists us because we are it’s favored champion. If we weren’t the last planet to run to, it would have abandoned us like the fallen.

[blazing wasp]

the gardener assists us because it cares for life

its such a big part of her ideology, its effectively the reason they exist

i mean that in a very, very literal sense.

the winnower, as cool as they are, just wants everything to die

cool personality, boring end goal

in fact, intentionally boring, knowingly so

they like being boring, they want to be boring, they believe its the most funky fresh state of existence

[ember storm]

We were far far less advanced than the Eliksni were in their prime

[blazing wasp]

also of course the traveler is running away

[ember storm]

We were not the only option left, the traveler simply decided it was done running

[blazing wasp]

she stands zero fucking chance of fighting off the black fleet alone

and the consequence for trying and failing is immense

[ember storm]

If the traveler really wanted to it would’ve just ran again because it’s always an option

We’re not like the only civilization left in the universe or anything

[blazing wasp]

the collective ego death of every single consciousness except for a single thing

[ember storm]

This solar system is far from the only active one

[blazing wasp]

an effective death for everything

id be pretty fucking cowardly if i had an eldritch god hunting me down and if they got to me everything went bye bye

want me to throw hands with fucking Cthulhu? hello no, my ass is running

[ember storm]

When the black fleet first arrived at Riis, the traveler preemptively ran in hopes that the Eliksni would be spared

That didn’t work, so the next time the traveler made a stand

Simple as that

[blazing wasp]

also one cant really compare the winnower to the gardener when it comes to "running away" and "being a coward" when only one is being pursued

[sudden sinew]

And yet all it will cause is suffering and constant growth by itself, without the winnower the universe wouldn’t be a very nice place to live. We need both of them for the universe to thrive, what’s wrong with allying over one side of balance over the other?

[blazing wasp]

because only one would actually support the existence of humanity

by all means, the winnower does not think humanity will survive without influence from the gardener

knows*

[ember storm]

The winnower literally doesn’t want balance

It wants ONE thing to exist and nothing else

[blazing wasp]

they would be more than fine with that, they would WANT that

because humanity is intelligent, but weak

[ember storm]

It created the hypothetical of a final shape which by all accounts is the entire reason the witness tried to statue the universe

[blazing wasp]

against something like the vex? humanity is hopeless

and if the vex wins again, and again, and again, wiping out everything for all of eternity

the winnower would be pretty cool with that

[ember storm]

The witness called itself the first knife, which is something previously described as wielded by the winnower

[blazing wasp]

the witness is syndrome

[ember storm]

The only reason the winnower has appeared friendly to us is because it believes we’ll join its side and be the winning team

It expects us to eliminate all other life in the universe because we’re good at it

And it appreciates the irony of the gardener’s “here is proof that life will support each other” being the thing to end everything else

[blazing wasp]

the only real pro about the winnower is that they wont actually act

so we can just leave them be

[ember storm]

For now, anyway

Heresy might bring some big changes for Apollo

[fresh zephyr]

I always thought the Winnower just didn’t give a fuck. The Witness absolutely blanked everybody in Lightfall which I find hilarious, but it speaks volumes about the Winnower’s level

[ember storm]

I mean you have to recognize the dynamic that the witness, the thing that preached about inventing the concept of purpose, proclaims itself to be the weapon that the winnower used against existence

And all the winnower did was basically criticize it for not being effective enough

[fresh zephyr]

The Winnower is above conflict though, cosmic forces have no need for that rubbish

They let the funny little people do it

[ember storm]

My man oryx

Told us we weren’t worthy to face us, gets his ass beat, runs away, gets his ass beat again

Truly a visionary

[fresh zephyr]

Tbf, Oryx was like an ant compared to the Witness, even Rhulk

really scary to think about though

I remember Taken KIng, it was like the biggest threat ever

and then Rhulk made himself known, and the HIve were dwarfed

[next bobcat]

IMO rhulk was more intimidating than the witness. We knew nothing about him basically when we faced him, it was like nothing we’d ever seen before.

[sudden sinew]

Not really, he was severely weakened in the taken king, and he didn’t take his war moons or much of his actual fleet because he didn’t think he needed them (also it’s hard to move so much stuff) He has wiped out entire galactic civilizations and owns a giant taken space bird you know. Even without much of his power, he still almost conquered Sol, and would have if it weren’t for us sneaking onto his ship.

[next bobcat]

Space bird?

[sudden sinew]

The Perfect Raven

[next bobcat]

What

Is it like the traveler eagle

But darkness?

[sudden sinew]

No, it was the leader of an entire species, and Oryx fought against that species for an extremely long time until he learned the power to take, and then he took the bird and used it to finally destroy the Taishibethi species. To put it into context the raven was able to destroy an entire war moon with it’s talons

[next bobcat]

Crazy

[jagged badge]

Taishibethi is like one of the coolest names ever

[slow berry]

i always interpreted the winnower/gardener thing as similar to SMT/Persona having a bet or argument between two overwhelming, beyond-reality entities (in this case, whether or not a single being would always exist above all in existence)

So for fairness to the argument and because they're basically watching ants figure it out, they don't get involved beyond setting things into motion

[ember storm]

But this time humans indeed have a means of escape

[lost abyss]

The copium of seeing the Perfect Raven again in any capacity

[versed orbit]

perfect raven in sundered doctrine

real

[eager trout]

Plus, he kicks you

Nonchalantly

Imagine going in without knowing any of what he does and suddenly he just kicks you to oblivion

[slim girder]

Rhulk kicks but imagine being "sliced" and having time to know something's wrong and then watch it happen

Just with a finger flick

[eager trout]

I meant more from a gameplay perspective

[slim girder]

I think the witness was still more intimidating. But it did still have the same flaw as rhulk where it really didn't take us seriously during the campaign. Constantly trying to bargain and thinking we weren't going to do much.

[dim minnow]

I'd argue that the Witness actually did care about us a fair amount during TFS

since as Targe himself noticed, the Witness feared us

[sick yew]

They cared about us in the sense that they recognized us as a proper threat at least towards the end

I personally doubt the Witness ever really assumed that we would join them or lay down our guns and embrace the final shape

[slim girder]

It didn't take us seriously until we actually wounded it or until our ghost spoke against it.

It changed from its more coaxing kind of voice to much more booming and authoritative voice.

[sick yew]

I mean to be fair you make fun of the ant until it suddenly calls upon the powers of the universe to cut your hand

[next bobcat]

Then proceeds to literally unmake you

[sick yew]

And then the the and rolls up for round 2 with its 5 friends and you think alright ill get their ass this time
And then you hear the guardian leitmotiv kick in and you just know its fucking over

[lofty badge]

anyone else feel like there should have been more than just three echos that were shot out from the Traveler?

[sick yew]

Why

3 sides of a pyramid
3 echoes

(im making shit up ignore me)

[fluid peak]

Do you really think echoes won't ever show up again after frontiers, I find that hard to believe

They'll probably be our justification for going places in the future

[slim elk]

Hopefully we'll actually be able to secure one instead of them homing in on any local villain

[lofty badge]

yeah like the Witness was really powerful it felt like that several echoes would spring forth and scatter across the galaxy, it would give us more reason to travel beyond our own solar system

but yeah

[lofty badge]

yes

the echo of Cayde's noodles

[lofty badge]

also is Neomuna still stuck in a endless Siege from the shadow legion?

[trim grotto]

At the moment, yes. While the Shadow Legion have no active leader, they remain in the siege.

[slim elk]

Going to like that for the rest of D2s existence

[lofty badge]

fits the cabal tbh..

"Man our leader is dead....let's keep attacking this human city"

[trim grotto]

Cabal aren't fans of losing. Plus, their base is there.

[lofty badge]

yeah

i assume it is why there are still red legion in the EDZ

[trim grotto]

At this point in the lore, that's sort of just gameplay.

The Red Legion don't really exist anymore.

[lofty badge]

more so some cabal may just wear their colors and uniforms for one reason or a other?

and yeah gameplay wise

i kinda just headcanon most red legion colored cabal on earth we face are mabye just hordes and hordes of clones from powerful Cabal or Psions who sends them

by now at least

[trim grotto]

Anyone still wearing their armour are just... Cabal wearing red armour.

[lofty badge]

yeah

[slim elk]

Heck
There was a minor issue in Witch Queen where caitals forces were still in Red Legion colors and we blasted through them to get to Savathuns ship

[lofty badge]

i mean that was because she did fold a lot of the red legion remnants into her forces

then many also defected again it seems

[slim elk]

They did fire at us despite having an effective ceasefire by that point..

[lofty badge]

true tbh

tho they were also blocking our way onbored Savathun's ship

[sick yew]

iirc thats straight up what Saladin also said in the opening cutscene of Risen

Back then we werent quite as tight with Caiatl yet so remember that aswell

[lofty badge]

he did? i should rewatch that

[sick yew]

I vividly remember Salading going "you opened fire on us" or some shit in his usual raspy voice

Lemme look it up rq

[lofty badge]

yeah he does

[sick yew]

https://youtu.be/_VkMYeN7PRg?si=AbzFkqcxojACmHHZ

Yup there it is

Still like Crows little knife flip

Little showoff

[sleek matrix]

Idk if don't like that they did with salad man

[sick yew]

wdym

[sleek matrix]

Joining caiatl

[sick yew]

Arguably the best thing that could have happened to him

[sleek matrix]

Yea but we barely hear from him now

[sick yew]

Thats how he overcame his prejudice

[sick yew]

He comes down to host the Iron Banner still

[sleek matrix]

Yes I've not played ib for ages so I guess I forgot about that

But also in terms of story or lore

[lofty badge]

we did't see him much before thay anyway

[sleek matrix]

Does he get anything

[lofty badge]

He leads his own cabal legion now

[sick yew]

Remember season of the Deep? he was in that too losely

[sleek matrix]

I wonder

[sick yew]

Saladin never was that present in the lore to begin with

[sleek matrix]

If bungie is setting up a retaking of cabal home world

[lofty badge]

like we even fought alongside them briefly during a mission in the season of the Serpath

[lofty badge]

I hope they do

it is indeed one future story they can follow

[sleek matrix]

Me too

I guess it depends on what happens next season

[lofty badge]

cause it would be cool to for once go on a major offensive against the hive

[sick yew]

Similarly to Eramis heading back to Riis
I really dont think theres much left of Torabatl to reclaim

[lofty badge]

and succend

[sleek matrix]

Yes and a war type vibe

[sick yew]

Realistically speaking

[sleek matrix]

True

[sick yew]

Its just rubble and dust

[lofty badge]

hopefully one they can nail ( by adding more allied npcs)

[sick yew]

Or worse

[sleek matrix]

It basically got bombed flattened

[lofty badge]

i mean the Cabal may have means of terraforming it

[sick yew]

The Cabal dont terraform

[lofty badge]

but they mabye can

[sick yew]

They mine all ores and get out

[lofty badge]

otherwise i don't think the Cabal would be that hell bent on reclaiming a homeworld that is a wasteland now

[sick yew]

Remember Inverted Spire? Thats how the Cabal operate

[lofty badge]

still they could still have it

[sleek matrix]

Yea but there hive there still right?

[sick yew]

They arrive, take over, take what isnt nailed down and move on

[lofty badge]

likly yeah

[sick yew]

Possibly

[lofty badge]

the hive likes their war moons

[sick yew]

I think Torabatl is too big to be turned into a war moon

[lofty badge]

yeah

[sick yew]

Now that I think of it
Did we ever find out whats up with Fundament?

Good ol hive homeworld

Or well birthplace probably fits better

[sleek matrix]

Didn't it get flooded

[sick yew]

pretty sure it always was an ocean planet

[sleek matrix]

Yes

But there was a big event that the witness lied and setup

[sick yew]

You mean the three sisters being baited into going down to the worms?

[sleek matrix]

Yes

[sick yew]

With the lie being that the Traveler brings death

[slim elk]

The God Wave

[lofty badge]

i think they straight up just abadoned their homeworld

[slim elk]

Blamed the Traveler for it, reality is Witness and Rhulk were manipulating them

[sick yew]

But as far as enemy faction homeworlds go that is probably the most stable one?
Wonder if we'll get to drop by that place one day

Throw some car batteries into the ocean and shit

[slim elk]

It's an honest question if Riis even still exists

The Echo cutscene shows that it was getting cracked apart

[lofty badge]

yeah

[slim elk]

Might have a Cadia situation there

[sick yew]

Warhammer mentioned

[sleek matrix]

That's why eramis is going back

[lofty badge]

was Oryx at Riis alongside the black fleet?

[sick yew]

To be fair the Echo cutscene should probably not be trusted
They tend to be more metaphore than real event

[lofty badge]

or wait yeah he was if i recall

[sick yew]

We got 0 clue what state Riis is in

Could be anything from a bunch of ruins to literally blown to bits

[jagged badge]

I believe so

[sleek matrix]

Let me ask chat gpt

Its always right

[lofty badge]

so he fought alongside the witness perhaps or mabye more some of its minions?

[jagged badge]

[sick yew]

Oryx at Riis
Xivu at Torabatl
Savathun at Earth

[lofty badge]

(of course the hive did serve it)

[sick yew]

Good going there hive gods

[lofty badge]

yeah

[sleek matrix]

Chat gpt says it wasn't there

[sick yew]

Mf

[jagged badge]

?

[sick yew]

[slim elk]

One does wonder how we'll really justify being able to help reclaim entire planets when Humanity back on Earth is still stuck with one city

[slim girder]

It does exist. The witness and the black fleet don't destroy planets as the final shape is meant to calcify everything. It'd be a waste if they just destroyed everything they came across.
Only reason it even looked like that was because the witness hates anything the traveler touches.
As for torobatl it is still around but the cabal could very well rebuild just like we did after our collapse. I'm not saying it'd return to it's glory days but as long as the planet still exists there can be room to rebuild

[sleek matrix]

I trust ai i must trust jt

[slim girder]

Do we need another city?

[sleek matrix]

We dont

[jagged badge]

Chelchis is named in the King’s Fall weapons, implying Oryx’s involvement in her demise

[jagged badge]

[slim girder]

Exactly

[sleek matrix]

Most are dead

[slim elk]

If we ever hope to stop hiding behind walls and reach for the stars again? Yes

[slim girder]

We already do that

[slim elk]

It's called hope. We can reclaim our home

[lofty badge]

Kek

[sleek matrix]

Guys

Theres like trillions of hive

And others

[lofty badge]

on the moon

[sleek matrix]

We be fighting forever to reclaim

[lofty badge]

true

and hive breed to damn quck

[sleek matrix]

Not worth

[sleek matrix]

Yes and they dont have human limits

They only need to feed the worm

[slim elk]

Same logic applies to Torobatl

[slim girder]

Yeah and we've completely shattered them. Savathun and xivus broods remain. And even they are dealing with power struggles.

[lofty badge]

and infighting as the hive loves to do

[slim girder]

The hive might be infinite but they can be pushed back

[sleek matrix]

Unless the hive story leads to us killing all hive

We see what happens

[lofty badge]

hell mabye Luzaku can form her own brood who are our allies

[sleek matrix]

But it has to be big or we wouldn't leave

[lofty badge]

and who don't need worms

[sleek matrix]

Hive is a big threat

[lofty badge]

oh yeah

can powerful hive still take control of taken hordes?

[sick yew]

Do we really need Luzaku and her gang if we got mf Eris Morn strongest hive god there ever was on our side?

[slim girder]

Not as big as they used to be. In fact the vex are more of a threat now.

Xivu has been made mortal and savathun is the only one who still has some kind of advantage

[trim grotto]

Theoretically, sure. With the Witness dead, the Taken are once more in a state of disarray. I expect Xivu will claim them now. Some, at least.

[lofty badge]

makes sense, some likly would awnser more to dread

[sleek matrix]

I could see maybe us talking over the hive or taken

Commanding em

That's a big if

[trim grotto]

Yes, probably.

[sick yew]

Assuming shes done shitting her pants at the thought of Eris coming for her ass

[sleek matrix]

I think someone has to take em over

[trim grotto]

No.

[lofty badge]

eh

[sleek matrix]

We can't just leave em alone if we're leaving

[lofty badge]

i doubt we can take over every single taken there are just too many

a few? mabye

[sleek matrix]

Even a few and let them fight each other

[lofty badge]

that would be a waste

[sleek matrix]

That would be my play anyway

[lofty badge]

tho having some taken as like....combat helpers would be cool