📚lore-discussion

[sick yew]

We are kind of a baller after all

[ember storm]

Just randomly glimpsing at Savathun’s back while she’s talking and then going “huh that’s weird she has a circle pattern on one wing and not others”

[frigid sparrow]

Eramis going the way of Hiraks and sneaking the kill out of nowhere to become a hive god:

[slim elk]

Put it this way.

Would Saint not ask "why" we spared a certain Fallen on Titan?

[ember storm]

And honestly I don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine we walked over to get a closer look

[ember storm]

Literally when or how would it ever come up?

[frigid sparrow]

pretty sure he was. uh. dead

[ember storm]

Are you suggesting this happen during Dawn?

[slim elk]

Said Fallen is Mithrax lol

[ember storm]

I still don’t see your point

[slim elk]

And then we did the whole Zero Hour stunt

[ember storm]

When would we be telling him this and why

[slim elk]

So.. why? Why do we trust Mithrax?

[ember storm]

Why are you bringing this up

We didn’t particularly trust Mithrax in the mission

[slim elk]

Because it would be a logical point to ask.

Why are we willing to work with this Fallen

[ember storm]

Ghosts simply asks us “so do we like fallen or hive more” as we see a captain fighting a knight in the control room

[ember storm]

At what point

When are we telling this to Saint

You know leading up to zero hour was like a whole series of messages Mithrax was sending us

[slim elk]

Probably Splicer when Saint realizes his idol has history with Mithrax

[ember storm]

We didn’t just randomly stumble up on him and go “fuck it we ball”

[ember storm]

Again, when

When do we bring this up

Because this has zero bearing on the development of Splicer

Saint’s issue was not personally with Mithrax at any point

His viewpoint was just skewed to favor the people of the city first and not the new fallen refugees who just popped up

When tensions were high, Saint just naturally took the side of humanity

[slim elk]

I'm just pointing that using the Player Guardian as an advocate with the Eliskni would explain why Lakshmi and Co didn't try getting us into their coup attempt

Clear opinion known

[ember storm]

What

What does that have to do with it

[slim elk]

Basically?
Having the player Guardian have any actual "presence" in verse over a premier murder machine

[ember storm]

I still don’t see how that would do anything to the plot of splicer

Lakshmi didn’t care enough about anyone’s opinion but her own

Saint wasn’t simply distrustful of the Eliksni, he just put his primary focus on how the humans were doing

[slim elk]

Maybe it's just my preference
But I like having presence as a character in the verse.
Like us getting Crow out of Spiders grasp and the fire side hangout we had with him and Savathun

Splicer is a Centerpoint where us being around and having influence would definitely be felt

[ember storm]

I mean I feel like the point of splicer was that a community is stronger than just one person

We’d just be another voice lost in the choir of people arguing about ideals

[slim elk]

Some voices have far more weight then others

Our Guardian being a rather loud one

[ember storm]

As opposed to Ikora who is literally the vanguard?

I doubt it would make a difference

the coup would happen regardless of our political stance

[slim elk]

Indeed.

But would certainly be interesting to see how the Player Guardian would have influenced events beyond the clean-up

[ember storm]

People who followed Lakshmi and distrusted the fallen wouldn’t have their minds changed

[slim elk]

Or.. literally just have Mithrax react to the fact the same Guardian he was working with in Zero Hour showed up again with an offer to live in the City

[ember storm]

All Lakshmi would do is parrot that they’ve been playing us to get the chance to betray us and take us out from the inside

[frigid sparrow]

Are you saying we'd be nothing but a.. Choir of One?

[slim elk]

The Last City's government has always been quite a bit undeveloped in lore... especially lately with all the changes

Now there's Eliskni presence within.. they should probably get some solid representation

[lost abyss]

Someone in the Cryptarchy clipped the most recent cutscene which showcases this hilariously

[hazy veldt]

Regarding vespers lore, so we have a portal leading to literally god knows where in our solar system that is practically a ticking timebomb?

And by other side of portal there is entity who could effortlessly invade minds of both mechanical and biological eliksni

And force them into building the entire thing

[trim grotto]

It's powered down ever since we took out Atraks and restored the station AI.

But it is concerning.

[hazy veldt]

Oh

But still

Destination incomprehensible

😀

What’s even more interesting, in first encounter soundtrack they implemented darkness-synth, maybe it’s nothing but perhaps it could be a hint

[jagged badge]

That’s just the Beyond Light OST, tbf

[trim grotto]

Oh yeah true
Because Atraks, of course

[jagged badge]

The first encounter of Vesper’s Host uses the BL track Resistance

[dim minnow]

I wonder what Throne World tracks Sundered Doctrine will use

maybe Vow tracks

I hope not the Deserving

I heard it way too much

[empty fern]

Here’s. A lore question of the day

[trim grotto]

[empty fern]

What’s the symbol on the mag of graviton lance “particle accelerator” ornament

Most likely, math

[trim grotto]

On the mag?

[empty fern]

Ye

[trim grotto]

math

[dim minnow]

oh wait I might know

[empty fern]

Math

[empty fern]

Mmmmaybe

[dim minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/crazy-fives-clone-trooper-fives-star-wars-clone-wars-gif-25445851

[sick yew]

https://tenor.com/view/dr-darling-casper-darling-control-gif-20224191

Sounds simple enough

[blazing wasp]

Aurora Borealis lore

[dim minnow]

at this time of year?

at this time of day?

in this Discord server?

localized entirely within my lore-discussion channel?

[slim girder]

It's not a portal. It's the equivalent of a phone. Things can't actually go through it unless they're messages.

[blazing wasp]

Yes

[slim girder]

Also we did get a message from it.
"Lodi transmitting, status adrift, moonsick, Odysseus protocol active"

[dim minnow]

well, it is all but confirmed that Vex tech was involved in the creation of the Anomaly

so who knows, maybe it can act as a gate

also, gonna call it right now, Corona Borealis Supercluster/Dark Horse Nebula

maybe a signal from the Supercluster will come from the Anomaly

maybe it already has

[slim girder]

Possibly. Sure when I first saw it I thought it was a portal but then when I looked more at it seemed more like a window of sorts.
I don't think it'd be safe to fly into what we now know is unstable arc energy..

[dim minnow]

I wonder

there was an older lore entry where a corrupt Guardian named Sola used "malformed" Void to torture another Guardian during a Trials match

could it be at this mysterious energy seen in the dungeon is the same but with Arc?

though it also calls into question how this Arc energy has a few Solar-like qualities like its coloration

and the fact it leaves a well of flame wherever it strikes

[slim girder]

Well this isn't arc or solar light so I would assume this acts just like a lightning strike IRL.
Yes it's in space so technically it wouldn't work but lets just give that the "because video games" reason
Lightning and fire are one and the same but their electrons are moving at different speeds. A lightning strike IRL does leave fire sometimes.

Hell in Australia we've just had a massive fire caused by lightning strikes

[hybrid sorrel]

what about oxygen

[sick yew]

We need air I believe

[hybrid sorrel]

Oh, what do they do on places without it then? do they have a respirator or something?

[sick yew]

Build into our armor

Thats my guess

[hybrid sorrel]

Wait, can't we see several guardians in game, in places like Eris on the moon, or Ikora in mars?

They don't have a helmet or anything that could function to give them oxygen

[blazing wasp]

the traveler probably fixed a lot of that, it teraformed quite a lot and its possible it gave our moon breathable oxygen, made gravity more like earths, and stopped the air from being filled with danger dust

[sick yew]

The moon and Mars actually have an atmosphere

Travelers doing

[lofty badge]

gave the moon oxegyn too but left it a barren rock

[sick yew]

Well it did just make a little driveby there yk

Maybe it never actually stopped on the moon to begin with and the terraforming happened by proxy while it was chilling on earth for the short time before the collapse hit

[lofty badge]

could be or humanity did it?

[trim grotto]

We need oxygen. Dying in open space is a horrible thing for a Guardian.

[trim grotto]

Mars was rather famously terraformed by the Traveler. It has since partially reverted, but the oxygen remains.
The Moon was not directly terraformed, but was given new gravity, and the beginnings of an atmosphere came with it. Thin, but enough to breathe.

[lofty badge]

got cha

you can still see some grass growing out from the mars desert

[sinful pivot]

its the guy from Control

[sinful pivot]

hey mael

what do you think Frontiers is gonna be about

would Proxima Centauri be a reasonable theory?

[sick yew]

Dr Capser Darling my beloved

[ember storm]

Frontiers is gonna be about finding our trapped friends while having to battle ancient enemies that are way beyond our power level, something that will force us to reflect on our actions and our relationships with our friends

Also Big the Cat will be there

[sleek matrix]

This sounds like a chat gpt story

[ember storm]

The joke is that it’s the plot to sonic frontiers

[lofty badge]

lol

frontiers will take us to a ring world that will look oddly familiar

think any remnants of house Salvation still worships the Witness despite it having been dead for over half a year now?

[sick yew]

I mean the Witness might be dead but their forces are still active

That one Psion is in charge of a decently sized force which includes the Dread

Or whatever theyre called

[lofty badge]

yeah

[jagged badge]

Will we be blinded by its majesty?

Paralysed?

Dumbstruck?

[lofty badge]

most certainly

[frigid sparrow]

Yirix

Otzot is also a part of it, since they have access to the Shadow legion cloning stuff

[lofty badge]

would not surprise me if they are working togeather for like Psion Supremacy

[analog torrent]

Aphelions 🙏

[dim minnow]

I'm thinking that Apollo could involve the Corona-Borealis Supercluster

specifically a signal that came from there

[sinful pivot]

what signal

[ember storm]

a scattered one

[dim minnow]

well you see, the IX tell us to keep an ear on the Corona-Borealis Supercluster

and an old D1 Grimoire card tells of a signal from there that supposedly brought the IX to Sol (which we know is a half-truth in that the IX were not from that Signal)

The Nine arrived in a mysterious transmission from the direction of the Corona-Borealis supercluster.

the horse in the Trials of the Nine Emissary room is a reference to the Dark Horse Nebula which is near the supercluster

[uneven mulch]

is there a 3rd darkness subclass?

like how solar is opposite of stasis cuz ice and fire

and void is opposite of strand i think cuz void manipulates physical and strand manipulates memories (?)

[sick yew]

Not rn

[uneven mulch]

will there be one

[jagged badge]

No

[uneven mulch]

oh

[sick yew]

Unknown

Maybe

maybe not

[jagged badge]

The opposites thing was only really a thing for Stasis and Solar because of the obvious thematic dichotomy there

[uneven mulch]

thought i was onto something 😭🙏

[jagged badge]

For the record though, Stasis is not ice and Solar is not fire

[uneven mulch]

they're not?

[sick yew]

Not directly no

Theyre just light and darkness with different "expressions" basically

[uneven mulch]

what about the orange arc thing

[sick yew]

But they mimick their respective things so much you might aswell call them fire and ice for clarity sake

[sick yew]

From Vespers host?

Thats just arc

[uneven mulch]

i think

[sick yew]

But supercharged

[uneven mulch]

i forgot

oh

[sick yew]

The Ai of the station direclty comments on it

Something something "arc energy shouldnt be this color" or whatever

[jagged badge]

Stasis obviously looks and is themed around the idea of ice and stuff, but in reality it is not at all. Ice can change state to water. Stasis does not melt. It doesn’t have a liquid state. Stasis crystals are created by sucking out entropy to create an extremely volatile crystal structure

[sick yew]

And on the note whether there will be another darkness subclass
The only power that we currently know that could be one would I guess be Resonance but eh I find that unlikely

[jagged badge]

That’s why the crystals either “thaw” into a nothingness or can be shattered to explode

[uneven mulch]

if someone would touch it what would it feel like?

ice but not wet?

just cold?

[trim grotto]

Cold. But it's basically a crystal.

[sick yew]

Ask Variks, bro got partly frozen by Eramis that one time

[uneven mulch]

💀

why everybody bully my best boy

[trim grotto]

there are reasons

[sick yew]

Wrong reasons

[trim grotto]

Variks the Loyal is a terribly ironic title

[sick yew]

Variks needs to be protected

My beloved

But yeah like Mael said hes got a pretty good track record of being anything but Loyal to essentially everyone he ever met lmfao

[uneven mulch]

oh

[sick yew]

Betrayed his own kind by allying with the Awoken and becoming warden of the prison of elders, then he betrayed the awoken to start shit together with Eramis whom he also betrayed

But now hes chilling

[jagged badge]

Until

[sick yew]

No

never

Shut up Tempest he would never!!!

[jagged badge]

Yeah nah Variks seems to have definitely settled this time. Realised all his ambitions were silly and that it’s the younger generations that are the Eliksni’s future, not him

[sick yew]

Also funfact
Variks was most likely the first ever Eliksni to enter the Last City under Vanguard business

[uneven mulch]

wouldnt it be cool to have a non guardian class

[oak bough]

why is the warlock super called winters wrath

obviously hinting to ice

[uneven mulch]

just some guy with a gun

[oak bough]

i mean

[uneven mulch]

and if you die you permadeath

[jagged badge]

Because it’s thematic

[oak bough]

thats not a guardian dawg😭

[uneven mulch]

yeah

non guardian class

[sick yew]

As said its themed around ice but its not literally that

[oak bough]

zamn

[sick yew]

Factually wrong
Someone didnt play the Red War

[jagged badge]

We named the abilities. The ice theming is obvious. Even perhaps intentional, as Cowlick suggests

[sick yew]

You dont gotta be a lightbearer to be a guardian

[jagged badge]

Cowlick suggests that Stasis presents itself in this elemental theme to appear harmless and similar to the Light elements

[oak bough]

but tell me

[uneven mulch]

dark?

or just physical prowess

[trim grotto]

no like
a guardian is a defender of the traveler and the last city

[uneven mulch]

oh

[trim grotto]

but not strictly a lightbearer

[uneven mulch]

that makes sense

what year is destiny set in

current

so like revenant

[trim grotto]

We don't actually have a known year.

[sick yew]

We dont know

Actually we dont even know when the Golden age was right?

D2 isnt exactly measured by specific dates and more just how long certain events are set apart

[trim grotto]

Not unless you take the original D1 trailer launch date very seriously. Going by lore tabs, it is a vaguely set "near future". There were holograms.

[jagged badge]

Even the latter is vague

[sick yew]

mhm

[sick yew]

Oh for s ure

Calling the timeline between collapse and city age to now vague would be an understatement

Shit definitely happens and has happened and probably will happen

There

@jagged badge if you could choose one lorebook to get a live action or animated miniseries

Which one would you choose

[jagged badge]

Uhhh

Not sure off the top of my head

[sick yew]

Smh

Think Tempest think

First shit that pops into your head

@trim grotto you got an idea too?

[trim grotto]

Festival of the Lost book 3
Archie eats candy

[sick yew]

Based

Live action or animated?

[trim grotto]

both
Immaru is live action

[sick yew]

Might sound like an odd choice but I always felt like you could turn the k1 records into a pretty decent live action horror mini series

Its also not directly connected to most of the destiny story so there aint a billion years of setup and knowledge required

[slim girder]

I remember a long time ago there was video introducing players and i think it said 500 years in the future

Obviously that should be taken with a grain of salt though

[oak bough]

i swear i do remember something like this

[trim grotto]

Same vibe. Can't really take any of it seriously.

[lofty badge]

could be 500 or even 1000

😔

[sweet locust]

Any one lore experts on titans and Their ability usage in lore?

[sick yew]

Elaborate

[sweet locust]

Why do titans even the strongest ones prefer more “simple” usage of wielding paracausual ability’s than hunters and warlocks.

Hope I spelled that right

[sick yew]

Doesnt have to be complicated to be effective

[sweet locust]

I know it’s effective

I’m just wondering why that’s the general preference

[sick yew]

To my knowledge there isnt much lore why certian classes prefer certain tactics and stuff

It could also just be a case of gameplay writing the lore

[sweet locust]

I wish they dived into that, there’s a noticeable difference in how each classes utilizes their powers.

[sick yew]

Also always keep in mind that just because someone is a Titan doesnt mean they cant learn a golden gun

[sweet locust]

I don’t really have a problem with it as a titan main, if punching a god really hard works then it works🤷‍♂️

[sick yew]

Its not as black and white as it is ingame

[sweet locust]

I’m aware ability’s aren’t locked to certain mindsets, I was just wondering why certain ways of using paracausal powers are common depending on the class of a guardian even in lore.

[sick yew]

Its a very valid question

Just not one that I think we have the answer to

The three classes kinda evolved over the early dark age

And when the City Age properly began and guardians started to be properly trained under the Vanguard they probably stuck to what was established

[sweet locust]

I see

I wish they did look into why it’s common for warlocks to flashy objects to mess with their enemies and why most titans no matter what subclass they are using all seem to have a “please notice and pay attention to me” mindset when fighting.

[sick yew]

Flashy objects?

Wdym

[sweet locust]

Like the new arc aspect they got,arc soul,well of radiance.

Which I guess make since bungie prefers to give warlocks “creation” ability’s.

Titans tend to get more empowering stuff.

[sick yew]

Interesting assessment
Alltho Warlocks also have their share of empowering things

Titans have a good bit of defensive stuff tho

[slim girder]

Philosophy.
Titans throw themselves at the enemy because it's what it means to "be the wall"
Hunters are more tactical preferring to instead finish fights without having a scratch on them.
And warlocks tend to do a lot more arcane kinds of things that they spend many years training and learning.

There are old grimoire cards going into more of this with their base melee abilities, why titans punch and warlocks palm

[analog torrent]

More like the other way around
Lightbearers that prefer "simple"/direct wielding of paracausal ability become Titans

It gets more ingrained in them as they receive more class-specific training but yeah

[slim girder]

Leviathan is bigger than the dreadnought right?

Just want to be sure

[dim minnow]

I think the Dreadnaught is still bigger

[slim girder]

Any lore discussing size? Because all we really have to go off is comparing them to the plants or moons they're next to

[dim minnow]

not really

and size is not always consistent

[slim girder]

Right

The dreadnought is always so weird. Like oryxs throne you can see it end to end. It warps itself depending on where we are inside it so it's hard to gauge its size. The Leviathan though tries to show that it's impossibly huge.

[sleek matrix]

Its because it's from another realm

Its meant to emulate that affect

[dim minnow]

maybe Heresy will give us an actual measurement for once

[ember storm]

Couldn’t you just do the math given the effect it had on Saturn’s rings

[dim minnow]

size inconsistencies still apply

[ember storm]

Well what if I believe it really hard

[dim minnow]

looking up what the community thinks and 640-960 km seems like a safe bet

[ember storm]

I’d believe that

[dim minnow]

but again, the size is very inconsistent

[ember storm]

Also do you have an opinion on this

[dim minnow]

I mean, probably

would be a bad first impression for their Guardian though

we know what Hive Ghosts hide in the cavity where their Hive Guardian's worms once were

[ember storm]

What about the eye thing

[dim minnow]

and the numbers I pulled here were from someone comparing the size of the ship to a real life comet (67p) because in the first trailer for TTK, that very comet crashed into the Dreadnaught

[dim minnow]

eye thing?

[ember storm]

Like felwinter plucked a ghost from its shell and put it in his helmet

What if an exo did that to their own ghost and put them in their own eye socket

[dim minnow]

well, bit hard to do that if the Ghost is alive

also size difference

[lost abyss]

Wasn't there that Lightbearer and Ghost from some of SotW's lore that had something similar to this going on

[slim girder]

Nah I think it's just the game. Bungie just wanted some cool skyboxes most likely.
Bungie keeping the size consistent during the whole raids might have been hard to do

[eager trout]

Does the Eliksni language have a B sound?

[eager trout]

How I see it, Titans go with familiar and simple, strength-based things, Hunters imbue more tangible objects with Light, and Warlocks use the Light raw.

[dim minnow]

Like Warlocks think more abstractly?

[eager trout]

Maybe

Titans are the type to use sticks as lightsabers

Hunters would actually make said lightsaber

And Warlocks pretend to use the Force instead

[mental meadow]

do we know who the third echo went to yet

[ember storm]

Presumably Xivu or something related to her

[rigid flower]

@ember stormQuestion.

[ember storm]

Possible answer

[rigid flower]

Can ghosts be destroyed by something that doesn't have paracausal energy?

[ember storm]

Yes, it’s quite common

Paracausal power is simply on the same playing field and essentially a confirmed kill

Ghosts are commonly killed by conventional weaponry (a single dreg with a knife could do it)

Essentially their paracausal nature means that a stray bullet usually won’t be enough to put the ghost out of commission (I.e. intro to CoO with Sagira)

[rigid flower]

Gotcha. Ty for the info, was a little confused on it.

[ember storm]

Bungie had a lore tab in WQ with Shaw Han actually giving a lecture to new lights on how ghosts can be killed

He’s kind of lame though so nobody really remembers it

[lofty badge]

lol

i guess there is no lore reason as to why our ghosts are bullet proof?

[ember storm]

What would make you assume they are

Ghosts getting shot is nothing new, the only reason we have to go up and finish hive ghosts is purely gameplay

A ghost wouldn’t just stay still floating midair for 10 seconds anyway

[lofty badge]

i mean the fact they hovering over the spot we died while enemies are firing at them with no effect XD

[ember storm]

Because it’s just a video game

[lofty badge]

i mean often hive ghots are dead within 8 seconds

[ember storm]

They’re not actually just sitting there

[lofty badge]

not to mention we are paracusel beings so makes sense we can crush ghosts when we manage to grab em

[trim grotto]

They aren't.

[blazing wasp]

if you mean ingame? no, in lore theyd be hiding

theyre not bulletproof in lore

[hot cypress]

i remember there was a lore detailing about a fireteam that was sent to venus black garden i think, the fireteam were wielding stasis but for some reason they got corrupted by the darkness and they killed each other, the only one left alive was a stasis hunter

oh and that hunter had something going on with the warlock

anyone remember what they were named?

i think it has something to do with garden of salvation

[dim minnow]

the Kentarch 3

[hot cypress]

KENTARCH 3

[dim minnow]

Rekkana - Warlock, member of the Cryptochrons, an exiled Warlock order

[hot cypress]

i remember now thank you

i just wanted to remember the name

[empty fern]

Lore topic of the hour, why do only some hive have green eyes, why thrall covered,
Why taken just one
Why light hive have shiny forehead

[ember storm]

Taken “eyes” are not eyes and are actually separate from the body itself, more visible on a side profile

That is just a helmet

Thrall are underdeveloped and can barely even be considered sapient beings, they have hives but they’re just not readily apparent

Are you really asking why the god king of the hive looks different from the others

[empty fern]

No he’s got 3 eyes as well

[lost abyss]

The shiny forehead is the most persistent mystery. I propose, that it is so Guardians can use it as an orb to ponder, when defeated.

[slim girder]

Video game reasoning.
People would be losing their minds if enemies could actually kill our ghosts ingame after we died.
But in the actual universe of destiny ghosts hide and even our own ghost comments on it being safer. But others like sagira or Sundance would instead choose to run off and hide somewhere.

[lofty badge]

got cha

so our ghost is lorewise just a pro at hide and seek infront of our foes

at least i might go with that headcanon XD

[slim girder]

Our ghost just hides "in our backpack" while we fight. They've said this a couple times.

Like they dematerialise and are with us

[lofty badge]

yee

[slim girder]

Not actually hiding in our back pocket or something

[lofty badge]

aye

more so when we go down mid battle i picture them just being op at hide and seek and then rezzing us

[hollow hinge]

Ninja defuse moment

[slim girder]

So are the neomuni going to do anything about this? Our enemies really are the most inconsiderate beings ever. They come to our system, threaten us and then after we defeat them we're left with the equivalent of a small moon just sitting there doing nothing and destroying it would probably cause the equivalent of a supernova

[sleek matrix]

there are no neomuni

there all in the cloud ark

also i dont think its even possible to move it

the pyramids ships are sentient

[slim girder]

I think the Typhon imperator is a special case. It belonged to calus so only he could probably control it.
The other ships however they could absolutely just up and leave

[sleek matrix]

it still has pyramid tech thou

its a paracausal vessel for sure

he was given it its not his orginally

[slim girder]

Honestly I don't even think it would even be a real part of the black fleet more just calus wanting to gloat as he usually does. Even the witness makes it sound like it just gave calus everything so that he'd follow orders more

[sleek matrix]

it was given to calus for his shadow legion army

so yea its seperate

but the Manufacturer is black fleet

[slim girder]

Yes. It's probably not sentient like the others either. I know it's massive but I wouldn't expect to see any veiled statues inside. Just as ghost put it more of those frozen cabal soliders

[sleek matrix]

it defo is

all the ships are from the black fleet

[lofty badge]

i think the shadow legion that remains in Neomuna uses it as their stronghold

mabye Calus's most loyal

[sleek matrix]

yes

[lofty badge]

• the ship also had a shit ton of shadow legion troops in stasis

likly still many in stasis inside it they can use to constantly reinforce

[sleek matrix]

yea although we got rid of calus his army is still active

[slim girder]

I don't know. While we were inside it didn't have the usual whispers and stuff you'd normally see like with the moon and europa pyramid.
Only time it opened for us was because of a trap.

[lofty badge]

yeah and it did splinter

[sleek matrix]

the whispers are mainly the witness

the moon pyramid is also unique in nature due to it being nez ship

it has the nightmare stuff

Europa is especially a main one too because witness lured us into using stasis

in the hopes of Turing us

[lofty badge]

yeah

[sleek matrix]

im looking forward going back to the dreadnaught

even thou its not a pyramid ship

[slim girder]

Not really. Even with the witness dead they're still able to do things like rn I think it was said that they're "mourning" because now they're just drifting. The veiled statues inside them which we know know are parts of the witness probably had something to do with that.
Again i wouldn't expect to see any veiled statues inside the Typhon imperator and I see more as like a giant personal carrier. Doesn't even seem to possess any weaponry.

[sleek matrix]

its still one of the cooler hive ships

[slim girder]

Dreadnought is very cool

Still tons of stuff left to find

Like all the prison cells and their contents in the catacombs of the ship where we fought the darkblade

[lofty badge]

yee

think the dreadnought will be a three way warzone between Vanguard and allies forces vs Lucent hive and Xivu's brood?

[slim girder]

Most likely.

[lofty badge]

yee

[slim elk]

Probably throw Taken-Dread into the mix given the teases we Been having

[slim girder]

It's an extremely valuable asset. Not to use or anything but more to make into a stronghold

[lofty badge]

yeah

i imagine many some remnants of Oryx's own loyalists might get involved?

tho they may have thrown in their lot with Xivu

[hot cypress]

so i have a question for guys who are well versed into the elements and how they work if stasis is the opposite of solar and strand is the opposite of void, what would be the opposite of arc?

[jagged badge]

They aren’t really intended to be opposites like that

Solar and Stasis make an obvious thematic dichotomy but aren’t really related beyond that

[hot cypress]

how are they not related if stasis and solar are not that much of opposites between each other besides appearance wise, then what are they at their core

[jagged badge]

Stasis is the element of control and willpower. The ability to exert your will on the world and its people. It’s theorised that Stasis presents itself in an “ice” like form as a way to appear similar to the Light elements specifically to entice Guardians into its use

[hot cypress]

yeah now i can see that

still interested to know what would a 3rd darkness subclass would be

[ember storm]

Taxes

[lost abyss]

Kell of the IRS

[lyric karma]

What happened to the traveler after TFS concluded?

[slim girder]

Nothing. We can now get to work on healing the damage the witness has done

[dim minnow]

we don't know exactly what will happen yet

we do know that the Traveler can heal properly now which we are helping with

[uneven mulch]

what happened in episode echoes?

[trim grotto]

Like... the entire thing?

[uneven mulch]

summary

ig?

doo doo stupid terms

[trim grotto]

One of the Maya Sundaresh copies floating around the Vex Net got one of the Echoes. She went Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs after realising what had happened to the modern world, and started to use the Echo to manipulate both people - such as Saint-14 - and Vex.

She started experimenting on Vex, and tried to raise an army to create a new Golden Age by force - whilst also sifting through the copies of her wife, Chioma Esi, to find the "real" one. This went... poorly.

With help from Failsafe, we and Saint-14 and Osiris put a halt to her... for now. This Maya copy, known as the Conductor, escaped - and the Vex she influenced still retain their abnormal qualities, acting independently like people rather than like... well, Vex.

There is more, but uh, that probably covers most major points.

[uneven mulch]

who's maya

and what even are the echoes

[trim grotto]

Golden Age researcher of Vex. Got simulated by them a bunch. Actual Maya also helped found Neomuna.

[trim grotto]

Fragments of power and memory forged from Light and Dark. Remnants of the Witness that dispersed upon its death.

[uneven mulch]

oohh ok ty

[slim girder]

Does caital use clones like other cabal sectors such as the shadow legion? Seems like a bit of a waste of good soldiers if she doesn't.

I like to think she doesn't for moral reasons, she wants an actual empire not identical soldiers with no personality.

[ember storm]

Judging from the fact she went out of her way to try and enlist all red legion remnants when she first arrived, I doubt it

[slim girder]

I do wonder how she's growing her empire. Like all the red legion should be gone by now and iirc shadow legion have no soul and aren't anything that could be turned to the good side.

There are only so many cabal in Sol i feel.

And they don't seem to have any kind of settlements instead forever being inside flagships

Unlike the eliksni who have settlements and facilities inside the city on earth.

[lofty badge]

i think when she first arrived that she had the civlian popluation of cabal, both young and old on like massive carriers

so i think a lot of her power are fleet based

with mabye some moons the vanguard are not intrested in being given to h er

and for the red legion...the only reason i think we still see red legion cabal around are powerful Psions and cabal warlords like Yrix and others having acess to cloning and pyramid tech

tho idk how useful it would be to send swarms of cabal clones wearing red legion armor and gear to the EDZ

[slim girder]

Caital doesn't want any moons. She only wants to retake torobatl and rebuild her home. Just like what eramis is attempting to do.
But i do wonder why she doesn't seem to want to have any temporary settlement in the city. Like we see cabal in the tower sure but never anything to the extent of the house of light.

[lofty badge]

🤔 good question

then again the house of light is there to stay

and if she still wanna retake her homeworld

[slim girder]

So far the only thing we've seen is the cabal like to watch the crucible and they've adopted their own version of the iron banner thanks to Lord Saladin

But other than that there doesn't seem to be anywhere that the current cabal have settled into

[lofty badge]

yeah

i will just go with they got the nessaary things for their popluaiton on their fleets

[slim elk]

Old cabal pride most likely. See what it took for the cabal to accept having equal allies over another client race

(and theres probably holdouts in the Cabal Empire, they didnt just have "one" planet with Torobatl)

[lofty badge]

yeah

[slim elk]

Everyones just went to Sol because the universes doom magnet has spent the past couple of centuries squatting there

[wispy karma]

what d2 deities did we shove into weapons?

aside from oryx and the touch of malice

[slim elk]

Xol and Savathuns worm

[wispy karma]

the worm doesnt count

[jagged badge]

That’s not exactly accurate

Touch of Malice is not Oryx. It’s not his soul or his essence or anything. He’s still his corpse

[slim elk]

We do got Taniks head mounted on a wall as a trophy

[lost abyss]

Honestly, I'd argue Xol doesn't count because we didn't really do that, it was Xol's plan.

[empty fern]

Beside I can do is a corner besides the exo toilet

[slim girder]

Isn't it part of him though? Like it has his heart and oryx even says that through that weapon he can continue to fufill the sword logic through the use of the being that killed him.

[jagged badge]

And armed thus with my past, and my future, and my present (which is a weapon, a weapon that takes whatever is available, a weapon bound to malice), they will mantle me, Oryx, the Taken King.

They will become me and I will become them, each of us defeating the other, correcting the other, alloying ourselves into one omnipotent philosophy. Thus I will live forever.

I’ll make sure.```

The thing is

We don’t mantle Oryx. We deny his power. We deny the Sword Logic

[trim grotto]

Yeppers
Think of Toland
He couldn't comprehend that we did not claim Oryx's station or power, we abandoned it
Oryx felt the same

[frigid sparrow]

Toland is two strikes down on guardians refusing to fully give into the sword logic and ascend the hive pantheon, bungo please let him be a part of the seasonal story so he can have a "fine, I'll do it myself" moment

[slim elk]

Unfortunately they refused to use Toland when Eris was literally going full Hive God and all the Guardians were feeding her tribute

When they didn't use him in a scenario practically tailor made for his involvement.. odds are we won't see him again

[slim girder]

Part of me doesn't even think he knew ngl. He's probably still being petty and cursing us for not taking oryxs throne.
Plus Eris was constantly changing back and forth. She only became a true hive god when she killed savathun after she got ressed

And then right after that she changed back

Another thing is that Toland has never appeared in the throne world. Not even sure if he can. He just floats in the ascendant plain or as we've seen, on the moon around the scarlet keep

[slim elk]

Probably would have noticed Xivu getting happy she had a new sister in the making lol

[slim girder]

Maybe. I'm pretty confident we will see him in heresy though, maybe not as a main character but definitely a character watching from the side and sometimes speaking.

As he always has been

[jagged badge]

There was lore from him in Into the Light

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/grimoire-eris-mornhive-god-of-vengeance

[slim girder]

Yes i have seen this. I retract my statement of him not knowing. My bad. But I do still think he'll make an appearance in heresy. Feel like if hive or eris are involved toland isn't far away now.

[slim elk]

Best to prepare for disappointment then

See Season of the Witch per your own expectations

[slim girder]

We really won't know until it comes out. Also episodes are different to seasons so there's definitely room to do things differently and possibly add more.

I'm not saying I expect it but I just think it'll happen

[slim elk]

And that track record has also been poor with the two Episodes we had

[slim girder]

Because it's in its testing phase. First couple of seasons also had some issues.
Heresy is trying something new as well.

I've enjoyed the episodes so far and my only gripe is more the parts that the community are giving feedback on.
They want it all at launch then get mad they have nothing to do. They don't want any busy work in-between quest steps then get mad they are going back and forth listening to conversations. Then if It's a weekly release they get mad at the timegate.

[slim elk]

Honestly speaking?

It's more of a name change then anything.
Seriously.. what was different about Echoes from a regular season?

Revenant also had clear storyline issues where you ran from one character to a holoprojecter... only for the same character to pop up

Indicative to me that the weekly timegate was the original plan

[slim girder]

Revenant had those issues because the community wanted bungie to remove the things you'd do between those conversations.
As for echoes it had more cinematic moments and instead of the 2 seasonal activities like normal we got 4 and one of those being a much bigger exotic mission. The longer period allowed for more development time so overall more content was there. But it's subjective whether people think it was meaningful or not.

In echoes each acts main quest had 30 or so steps because on top of doing the activities for the act you also had things in between to do Nessus. In revenant that was sliced down to I think less than 20 per act because per community request bungie took out everything that didn't involve the main story and now we have a weird story of running back and forth between holoprojectors and fieldwork that feels like it's out of sync

[slim elk]

And not much time for Heresy to have those issues fixed

Bungie clearly had a framework that they been utilizing

[slim girder]

Again it is in testing. Heresy has been more developed for this new model but I'm still expecting to see some things that might feel a bit weird.
I'm interested to see how this works and I love the game so I'm willing to stick with it even if the system doesn't end up landing well

[sleek matrix]

I wouldn't take there word for it

They said the same for episodes

[slim girder]

I do think this attempt will be better though. Not saying it'll be a roaring success but I do think this is a good step based on what's been said.

But I know some folks out there will always be quick to be negative and even more so since I've recently learnt a large majority of people don't read the TWIDs which contain some things that are very important to know and is bungies main way of communicating with us.

[sleek matrix]

Recently learned

That's always been the case most dont read shit

We're destiny players after all

[slim girder]

I guess but it's just seemed much more apparent now in my experience.

[lofty badge]

does it make sense there are still debris from the deep stone crypt station crashing down onto Europa years after it got destroyed

[slim girder]

Yes. It was a massive station so who knows how many fragments it was split off into.

It could be raining down for god knows how long

[lofty badge]

damn

fair

[ember storm]

You know how much space junk is in earth’s orbit

[sleek matrix]

[empty fern]

There’s that then there’s golden age then there’s dark age

[sleek matrix]

Dark ages

[slim girder]

Rasputin set all the warsats to self destruct when he sacrificed himself so that's just more to the pile. A whole planetary defence system in pieces just floating in orbit

[ember storm]

Now we have an endless supply of warsats for the public event, thanks Rasputin

[empty fern]

Rip

[lofty badge]

XD

[lofty badge]

XD

[rapid girder]

so just to clarify

weapon elements are simply made from aspects of the universe

[lofty badge]

not always

[rapid girder]

and the light grants guardians the aspects of the universe to wield

[lofty badge]

some are made from pure advanced tech that just uses the same element

like a lot of fallen tech that uses arc enegery

[rapid girder]

hmm

so like the aspect of space is void

the aspect of the stars and heat is solar

and the aspect of storms and electricity is arc

so the weapon’s elements are aligned with those things

[sick yew]

Not always but yeah sorta

[rapid girder]

nice

[lofty badge]

Are the Scorn in the dreaming city Revived by the curse each time the curse resets the time lock?

damn there are still wreckages of Mara's fleet

[empty fern]

Dreadnaught

[lofty badge]

yes

[uneven canyon]

Why did Oryx kill a worm god?

[jagged badge]

To gain power enough to commune with the Deep

Where he learned how to Take and became the Taken King

[ember storm]

Also he sorta felt conned by the fact that he and his sisters essentially indirectly got their entire race enslaved

This was at a point where the three were still relatively weak and had to figure out how to actually get strong enough to not have diminishing returns on their war efforts

[uneven canyon]

Also where did Eris get an ahamkara bone? Did she just find it in the Hellmouth

[ember storm]

She had it prior

[jagged badge]

She partook in the Great Ahamkara Hunt

And had it as a keepsake/trophy since then

[uneven canyon]

What is the Veil? I barely know anything about it

[sleek matrix]

Basically the opposite of the traveler

But its focus is more on the conscious stuff where as the traveler is more physical power

[next bobcat]

You know as much as we do basically. Lightfall did a shit job explaining and so we know little.

[uneven canyon]

And I heard that echoes have consiousness in them, what do we know about those?

[next bobcat]

There have been comparisons between the veil and mushrooms which links back to egregore which is pretty neat.

[sleek matrix]

They have memories of the witness

[jagged badge]

We know a great deal about the Veil now

About as much as we really know of the Traveler

[sleek matrix]

The veil is much more powerful than

That

Its just our perception limits us from accessing its universal memory

[jagged badge]

Additionally, Lightfall didn’t really do a shit job explaining the Veil, because Lightfall wasn’t trying to. It was intentionally something we learned more and more about from the narrative of the year’s seasons

[sleek matrix]

The pre cursor used the veil to form the witness

So that's a big clue into what the veil can do

[jagged badge]

People didn’t ultimately like this narrative choice much but that’s a different convo

[sleek matrix]

Lightfall was mainly for the witness to get inside the traveler

The veil was only there because the witness needed it to link

[next bobcat]

As of TFS? Interesting

[jagged badge]

Before TFS, even

The Veil Containment logs from Lightfall’s seasons shed a lot of light on it

It’s where we learned about it being a counterpart to the Traveler

[slim elk]

Odds are its the first real glimpse of the Winnower

[lofty badge]

I dont think the Winnower will take a active Villian role against us

[sleek matrix]

Yea i don't think so either

[abstract pagoda]

I feel like he is more of a spectator

[next bobcat]

The Winnower is literally just entropy incarnate

A force

[ember storm]

Erm actually the witness says guardians choose entropy

[next bobcat]

Eh

[slim girder]

I would elaborate but I don't know what entropy means

The witness threw words at me I didn't know existed

[gentle pendant]

What’s the last we heard from the dreadnaught

[ember storm]

Osiris visited it before Hunt and found it was left to rot, then Xivu’s forces camped there a bit while they invaded Titan

It’s just a bone ship with no leadership so there’s not much going on

[slim girder]

It's more like a big floating derelict. We disabled it's weapons and killed oryx so I don't think it could ever do anything atm

[ember storm]

Use it like the almighty to make season of the worthy 2

[slim girder]

I think if an echo leads us back to then maybe it could become semi active again. But as far as we know when we go back there it's going to be peeling and everything

Like truly decaying and everything.

Which makes sense since the whole thing is made of chitin

[gentle pendant]

Which lore card was this

[ember storm]

Osiris bit was in the radio messages

There was just a bunch of Xivu stuff in deep, gonna say it was one of the taken weapons

[dim minnow]

might be Immolant part 1 or part 2

[slim girder]

Small theory. What if the weapons the titan and hunter are holding are for the new dungeon or something. Obviously it's concept art and they could just be placeholders but they remind me of collective obligation a little bit.

[arctic iron]

afaik

we've never seen dungeon/raid gear before its actually released

excluding leaks

so most likely seasonal

[sick yew]

Yeah id say its the seasonal set

[sweet locust]

Our ghost found us in old Russia correct?

[sick yew]

Yup

Cosmodrome

Old Russia

[sweet locust]

Ok sorry for being slow

[sick yew]

Nah dw

[sweet locust]

But

[sick yew]

But?

[sweet locust]

The helm of saint 14 lord talks about how a savior guardian will come to kick ass

And it ends with a guardian saying he’s found a new recruit from old Russia.

This lore piece takes place from before we killed crota

[sick yew]

Not to crush your dreams of us being guardian jesus
But you have to understand its been established that the majority of new lights are from the Cosmodrome area

[sweet locust]

There’s more to it

Let me finish

[sick yew]

Sure

[sweet locust]

The guardian talking about a recruit from old Russia is also with another guardian who has the idea to give the recruit from old Russia “Croat’s end” implying maybe the skilled recruit might be us.

So does that mean that the name Croats end is a nickname for us? Am I the only one to realize this?

Last one

Not only one

Am I the last one to realize this.

[sick yew]

As in the raid isnt called Crotas End but rather we are Crotas end?

[sweet locust]

Yes, I thought the name “Croats end” was the name of the operation to kill crota.

I guess I’m that slow.

[sick yew]

I mean that is one way to put it
However Raid names arent always canon so to speak

To my knowledge its also sometimes unclear whether we as "The Guardian™️" are the ones who participate in the raids themselves

[sweet locust]

But didn’t we participate in killing crota?

[sick yew]

I think thats one of the few that were indeed mentioned yeah
Similarly to Calus for example cause he talks directly to us both ingame and mentions us in lore

But there were actually quite a few guardians who went through Calus' trials in the Leviathan aswell

[sweet locust]

Ok

[sick yew]

But yeah Cayde mentions it as a nickname in the Helm of Saint loretab

Just a funny little wordplay

You know Cayde hes a joker

[tardy elbow]

Oh yeah, that's the lore card for Sain't helm that heavily implies we're the guardian they're talking about

[sick yew]

It makes sense yes

[sweet locust]

Thank you, I was just trying to be sure.

[sick yew]

But we aint guardian jesus

Well I am

But you arent

[tardy elbow]

I mean, aren't we? Lol

As far as the lore goes

[sick yew]

I mean any Guardian could have done what we did were they in our place at the right time

[tardy elbow]

Not every guardian is as powerful as we are though

[sick yew]

Besides Prismatic which is more of a side effect of the Pale Heart there isnt much that we do that the average guardian cant

[tardy elbow]

Shaw's guardian friend died to a basic Hive wizard in the new light tutorial lol

[sick yew]

Hive are a lot more dangerous in the lore than ingame

[tardy elbow]

Well yes, but their crew seemed like the average guardian to me ngl

[sick yew]

When I said average guardian I meant in terms of abilities and powers they use

We are still the protagonist so we get to do the cool shit

But overall we arent that special from a powerscaling perspective

[tardy elbow]

That's true I guess

Although, I thought I remembered somewhere that not all guardians are as proficient in all subclasses as we are right?

Well beside like major npcs

Like Ikora, Zavala, Cayde, and like Saint Shaxx and Osiris

[sick yew]

Yes and no
In lore subclasses themselves arent as limiting as they are to us
Youre not really locked to Solar throwing hammers or solar big hammer as a Titan
If you so wish to as a Titan you could learn goldie for example

Afaik the average guardian tends to keep to one or two subclasses and try to master those
Zavala for example (while he still had the light) mostly used void and arc

[tardy elbow]

Oh yeah I knew that part, the class system isn't very restrictive

[sick yew]

Ikora probably has all except Strand but mainly sticks to her trusty nova bomb

[tardy elbow]

Did we ever see Cayde use anything beside Solar?

[sick yew]

I think he used void in d1 once but mainly solar

Also I guess we are the only one to really use Strand but thats not exclusive to us

[tardy elbow]

Looking around, it seems he only ever mentioned using void one time as like a throwaway line for his stashes

With the flux grenades

[sick yew]

Ah

Well ye

[tardy elbow]

Yeah so far it's just us and Osiris? I'm pretty sure lol

[sick yew]

osiris doesnt exactly use Strand

[tardy elbow]

I don't think anyone else has mentioned using it

[sick yew]

He can do that funky little thing where he uses it to suspend his cubes

But properly wield it like we do? Nah, way too dangerous

[tardy elbow]

He used Strand on Mara though didn't he?

I'm pretty sure he knows how to use it

[sick yew]

To what capacity?

[tardy elbow]

In Season of the Wish, he uses it to hold her back from attacking the spectral Riven

Kind of like an opposite grapple

[sick yew]

Theree a cutscene of that?

I played Wish like once lmao

[tardy elbow]

Not really a cutscene, it's like when they show up in front of you and start talking

And you can still move around

But it's toward the very end, when Riven tells us only one can be transported with the wish

And she gets angry

[sick yew]

I see
Well I always remember back to Lightfall and how it took us hours and many deaths to get a proper grip on strand

Its extremely draining to downright deadly when used incorrectly

Guess hes slowly learning the steps for the "simpler" stuff but I think its highly unlikely that Osiris will ever pop whatever the Warlock Strand super is called

[tardy elbow]

Yeah we had the whole training montage lol

Although, Osiris was the one to really teach us how to use it properly

I think of all people, he could manage it

[sick yew]

And in the campaign beforehand whenever we got to use strand it would heavily weigh on us afterwards

[sick yew]

Less teaching more trying to coach

[tardy elbow]

That's true yeah

[sick yew]

Yeah try this, try that, random outburst of rage and yelling at his husband on the phone

That sort of stuff

Typical Osiris one might say

[tardy elbow]

Lmaooo no genuinely

[sick yew]

Saint really is the strongest Titan out there, not just physically but mentally for keeping up with Osiris' shit every day

[tardy elbow]

In lightfall it does seem like he uses us as a proxy to find out what works and what doesn't for strand

[tardy elbow]

Oh for sure

[sick yew]

Mhm

[tardy elbow]

I'm pretty sure there's some lore cards of him learning it more somewhere, I'll have to look the next time I'm on

[sick yew]

Wouldnt be surprising yeah

[tardy elbow]

Oh I didn't even need to log in to find it lol

Honestly the easiest google search of my life, surprised it worked

[sick yew]

Ishtar is arguably better to find specific stuff

Keywords and shit

[tardy elbow]

Yeah it's the first thing that popped up

Warp & Weft is the name of it

[sick yew]

Ah

[tardy elbow]

"I have touched Strand myself now. Carefully—I am too aware of mortality, but I must understand the power further if I am to hope to instruct the Guardian in turn. They acted as lightning rod while I experimented, and the backlash clung to them instead." - Honestly pretty cool lore, and yeah definitely coaching as you said

[sick yew]

Gramps better paid us in a shit load of glimmer for that

[tardy elbow]

I'm sure he gave us two tokens and a blue

[sick yew]

Yes guardian ill pay you in average strike loot

Wooo 500 glimmer and a blue titan mark upon ye

[tardy elbow]

"Congratulations guardian, you saved the universe by killing the Witness. As your reward, have one free expired ramen coupon"

[slim elk]

"Cayde doesn't need it anymore"

[tardy elbow]

Nah that's wild 💀

That actually made me laugh lmao

[slim elk]

It is true though

[tardy elbow]

☹️

[lofty badge]

anyone else kinda wish for a human enemy faction?

like do we know what happend to the factions that left the city after a certain not so nice exo lady teleported vex intot he city

and what are they doing now with the witness dead

[sick yew]

Last we heard they were trying to find the something something portal where the rest of the Awoken live

Whether they ever made it is unknown afaik

[lofty badge]

to escape the final shape?

[sick yew]

Nah

They got exiled from the last city remember

After the shit they tried to pull in Splicer

Back then we didnt even know who the Witness was

[lofty badge]

oh yeah yeah

but i just wonder what they up too now

[sick yew]

Understandable, as I said last thing I recall was them trying to look for the thingamajig Awoken blackhole portal shit

[slim elk]

Best bet for that was Neomuna or more recently with Maya in Echoes

But since neither of those panned out we won't see one..

[lyric karma]

Do tormentors suppress only our light?

[trim grotto]

Suppression, as an effect, works on Darkness subclasses too. It's the same effect that we apply with our kit.

You can pop into PvP and do it

[lyric karma]

I wonder how is it explained lore wise?

[trim grotto]

It sort of isn't, but it's easy enough to infer.
"Void is absence in the universe and in oneself. It devours and darkens, as we do when we are in pain." - Eris Morn.
Void Suppression dampens paracausal energy, whether Light or Dark.

[lyric karma]

oh, that explains all, thanks

[lofty badge]

Do we know if new dread are being made even with the witness long dead?

and if so what kind of automated dread making system do you think the Witness made

[ember storm]

Pyramids didn’t just magically disappear, dread are still biological beings just empowered with paracausal power

Pretty sure that psion whatever the name was is in charge of it right now

It’s sorta implied the enlistment of the shadow legion and their Psions is the only reason the dread even exist, so

[lofty badge]

i was more thinking if there are like black fleet faclites that pump out dread

[ember storm]

I mean yeah

That’s the point of the Psions

They brought their smarts and their genetic engineering tech

All the witness would’ve done is give them the original genetic material needed from the original sources (Rhulk, nezarec, etc)

[lofty badge]

and infuse them with darkness

[ember storm]

Shadow legion already do that on their own

There’s already a precedent for the witness just giving people a supply and letting them operate without direct supervision

Witness would not need to personally be involved with every dread being made

[slim girder]

Something that always confused me is what darkness specifically is being infused here? Is it strand or is stasis? Or a mixture of those things?
In beyond light Elsie said Clovis found stasis power so maybe these darkness elements are more like byproducts of something whole.

[lofty badge]

possbly yee

[slim girder]

When something says it's been infused with darkness sometimes it's taken blight as well. The original thorn was also infused with this darkness that made our guardian visibly sick from holding it

[fresh zephyr]

Okay serious Faithe time

Why do people keep saying the Winnower hates us? Byf mentioned it in his new video

[slim girder]

It doesn't

The winnower does not hate us. Maybe we might annoy it but at the end of the day we still prove it's logic correct and it knows that

It's just going to sit and watch what we do

[fresh zephyr]

It said like “see you soon” or something in a lore tab I think?

[slim girder]

Yes. It has officially spoken to us now and we've got its attention. But I don't think this has the kind of malice behind it that people think. It's the equivalent of a god that's interested in a singular race averting what should be complete oblivion

[fresh zephyr]

This is what I thought too. Why on earth would a being of that cosmic scale, higher than even the Witness, even care. Why would we even bother it?

The Winnower just seems like it just watches and goes “oh that’s cool”

[slim girder]

Exactly. It's all part of the game. It's why savathun has been "helping" us in some spots like with the dual destiny mission and that adventure where she "tested" us because she's already planning ahead for what's to come

[fresh zephyr]

How do you even fight something like the Winnower? Lmao. There’s literally nothing to fight, there’s no DPS phase😭

If the Witness reveres it and accepts its part on a chain, then you seriously don’t want to fuck with it💀

[slim girder]

I don't think we'll ever actually kill the winnower instead just showing it that we deserve our place in the universe.
You can't kill an idea, it's why nezarec is still around because he is the living embodiment of fear.

The winnower is a being that can tip the scales of the universe. If it died it would be cataclysmic because things in this universe do need to end at some point.

[fresh zephyr]

Without the Winnower, the Universe would fall apart? Would it not?

All I ever hear is the duality. Where there’s Light, there’s also Dark.

Night and day

Ying and Yang

[slim girder]

Correct. It's like if you tried to kill gravity

You can't just remove things like that from reality

[fresh zephyr]

Without the Winnower, people also wouldn’t die? Because the Gardener grants life and the Winnower takes it

[slim girder]

No the winnower doesn't take life. But its logic is all about the eventual end of life and how that is an inescapable truth.

[fresh zephyr]

The Sword Logic right?

But the Hive got too obsessed

[slim girder]

Kinda.

It's just the acceptance that we all return to dust eventually.

But it also believes that beings should prove their right to exist

[fresh zephyr]

I mean, yeah. Death is an inevitability.

We wouldn’t have a throne world because we get resurrected, but if a Guardian canonically killed all those Gods without dying, we would have a HUGE Throne World

[slim elk]

More to the point. The Winnower won't be targeting "us" exactly

But it's got inroads into the Traveler now

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah, The Winnower would care even less about us than the Witness did. I just don’t see us fighting a cosmic entity, that even the Witness didn’t mess with

[slim elk]

It's probably interested in seeing what it can do now the Gardener has a taste of Darkness

[fresh zephyr]

Like we are just ants to the Witness, we are little dots, like TINY dots to the Winnower

[fresh zephyr]

Real the aura that went into space

[slim elk]

And the villain seeking paracausal objects that are being ejected from it

[slim girder]

@fresh zephyr think of it this way. Death is an inevitably but now imagine that the god of death stubbles on someone who just simply says no to all of that. It would definitely peak their interest and they'd be watching to see what this person does to continue existing.

[fresh zephyr]

It’s kinda funny how quickly everybody started moving once the Witness stopped having the Universe in a chokehold. And even Xivu was like “nah bro, you’re on your own” at the time of the Final Shape

[ember storm]

Well the witness basically abandoned her after she lost her throne world

[slim elk]

I mean..somehow both Echoes so far were expressly delivered to the villains lol

[ember storm]

Took back all the taken lent to her

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah the Witness is ruthless. Calus deserved it, but like goddamn. Bro was ABANDONED

All his messages left on read

[ember storm]

That was his purpose

[slim girder]

It's a power vacuum. The echoes possess massive power from the memories of the witness. There's going to be a power struggle for a while

[ember storm]

Rhulk was enlisted for his blind devotion and ruthlessness, Nezarec for his pure bloodlust and unique abilities, and Calus was just meant to be a distraction while also bringing along his armies

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah The Witness got the most psychopathic ruthless individuals and just gave them even more power, absolutely unhinged

😭

[ember storm]

Specifically targeted the most egotistical and easily manipulated yes

Rhulk was a complete mess in his home life and easily swayed, nezarec just needed new targets to inflict pain on, and Calus just wanted to be on the “winning” team (and got upset when he had to work for it)

[fresh zephyr]

Calus fell behind too

He mentions in Duality that he wanted to transform into a Disciple of the Witness, but was very delayed

He also wasn’t very special.

I really think Calus’s boss fight is perfect. He wasn’t ever supposed to be this incredible might, he was only the Herald, and he was supposed to get us to the right place, and time

[slim girder]

Calus was just a lost puppy. He is smart yes but very arrogant. After being exiled he was content at just rotting away on the Leviathan until he came across what I'm assuming was the black fleet and since then has done everything he possibly could to try to connect with this power.
The witness took advantage of this.

People who spend possibly decades searching for something are way more susceptible to manipulation if you dangle what they want at their lowest

[lofty badge]

Intresting how the Shadow legion seemed more devoted to the witness during the final shape than the hive

[slim girder]

Because the shadow legion don't think. The hive do have actual personalities and can question "wait is this really worth it?"

Also the hive in the pale heart are savathuns brood.

[fresh zephyr]

The Hive are absolutely fractured. In Final Days there’s a piece of dialogue about Xivu abandoning the Witness

But even before then, there was only one Hive God left on the side of the Witness. The Hive have never been more fractured than they are right now

[lofty badge]

true

[slim girder]

That's why heresy is supposed to shake up the hive pantheon and have them deal with some "revelations" as bungie put it

The hive are changing and are a far cry from what they used to be. Holding onto beliefs that we as guardians have turned back onto them time and time again.

Hell in season of the witch we showed the hive that we're just outright better at making tribute and then once it was done eris rejected that power that we made.

[lofty badge]

yuss

are guardians cabale of wiping out a Hive brood like fully, (Without nuking the place said hive lives in)

[trim grotto]

Uh, theoretically, sure. But context matters. Just look at the Great Disaster.

[lofty badge]

True

But what about now with us having Prismatic

[ember storm]

still wont stop us from getting shot

[lofty badge]

We shoot them more then

[slim girder]

We generally don't use nukes in the destiny universe.
Also if it's something like the hellmouth that will always have hive i feel. Same with the scarlet keep any other major strongholds.

[ember storm]

and if they shoot us first we die

gameplay does not reflect story

[slim girder]

They breed like bugs so we're unfortunately never getting rid of them

[ember storm]

100 resil with frost armor stacks is not an actual thing

[lofty badge]

True just impossible to fully wipe them out

[ember storm]

if a vandal gets a cheap shot they just dead

[slim girder]

Nah 100 resil is real. At least on titans like Zavalas shoulder plate just flings shots off it like it's nothing

[lofty badge]

It is to me 😔 😔 😔 😔 😔 😔

[slim girder]

Ikora definitely gets a bit more bruised up like we saw in that final shape cutscene

[lofty badge]

Yeah

[slim girder]

And cayde.

.....

[ember storm]

yeah they got beat up

[lofty badge]

Xd

[ember storm]

ikora was literally about to die before her ghost healed her

i dont get your point

[slim girder]

I'm saying some gameplay does translate into lore. I know for spectacle it's often stretched but it'd be weird to have lore and gameplay completely separate from each other

[ember storm]

yeah?

i know that

but this specifically is not

no matter what cheesy or broken build you make ingame, this does not translate 1:1 with lore, so you should not expect the guardian to be absolutely flawless and invincible

[lost abyss]

I think one of the only cases we have of gameplay features being almost 1:1 canon, is Saint's Ward of Dawn.

[warm acorn]

So is fikrul finally fully dead?

[jagged badge]

Yes

[dim minnow]

I'm kinda sad about it, I genuinely liked him as an antagonist

I wish we got more of his vendetta againt us

[warm acorn]

Good. Finally

[slim elk]

A good first step to removing the Scorn

[slim girder]

I don't think he was really capable of any deeper stuff tbh. Dude just wanted everything to become scorn, Calls us dead things and worships uldren. Only when that needle reversed his ether before he died did he actually sound sincere.

[dim minnow]

I recall the Hallowed Lair strike teased him seeking vengeance on Petra for her role in imprisoning the Barons and killing Uldren

and we were the ones who murdered his friends

though I suppose you can argue that the Hallowed Lair runs were his initial attempts at seeking vengeance, but the Vanguard were always quick to put him down whenever he made too much noise

and it wasn't until the end of Lost when he finally had the opportunity to go into hiding

where he would gradually build up his forces until he claimed the Echo which brought us to Revenant

I just wish we would have had more with him in the time we were left without him

there was like what, a 3 year gap between the Tangled Shore being removed and Revenant

more like around 2.5 years from the looks of it

other than Warlord's Ruin

and some Wish dialogue

[slim girder]

I think his priorities just changed. He knew "uldren" was back just didn't know yet that it wasn't him anymore and then when he got the echo instead of chasing vengeance he could instead "bring a new age" through the scorn.

If the echo could bring his friends back then there's no point going after Petra.

Which is what he did. Only the rider was left out

[dim minnow]

didn't the Ether Ritual event already show he could have done that without the Echo?

[slim girder]

I don't believe so. The barons were properly dead when we dealt with them.

Seems scorn can't die twice. The echo allows them to bypass that

Fikrul was the only exception as he was the first and was brought back through wish magic

[dim minnow]

there probably are some differences

but still, we can see that the Machinist was brought back several times in Ether Ritual

until they changed it

[slim girder]

Yeah I think that was more just a placeholder. But now it seems bungie have given the machinist an actual place. Which is a boss in the prison of elders.

Rather than just using it's model to say "here's a big scorn boss" because from a technical standpoint only enemies that can be upscaled with scorn are chieftains and abominations.

We saw what happened when bungie tried to increase a screebs size

[lofty badge]

We did?

[slim girder]

https://x.com/destiny2team/status/1663968922398507008?s=46&t=r2R4R5WtUU3H9V76IFoZdg&mx=2

Destiny 2 Team (@Destiny2Team) on X

We wanted to see what a Screeb looked like scaled up 5x.

The results were horrifying...

X · May 31, 2023, 6:01 PM

Meet glorbo

[lofty badge]

Oh my god...

It is dancing

[abstract pagoda]

What is the Hive pantheon?

[slim girder]

The 3 siblings of the hive and gods of the hive.
Oryx the taken King
Savathun the witch queen.
Xivu arath the hive god of war.

[lofty badge]

[lofty badge]

why does this channel feel like the most civilized one on the server

[slim girder]

Because this is where we discuss the most intricate details of our favourite franchise.

For example.

[lofty badge]

true

[slim girder]

Does Caiatl having "Aiat" in the middle of her name mean that she's actually savathun in disguise?

Thoughts?

[lofty badge]

yes

no wonder she trying to Rizz up Zavala

[ember storm]

it means calus did a bit of cultural appropriation

[abstract pagoda]

Oh cool thanks

[abstract pagoda]

?

[lofty badge]

just me being surprised you did't kow about the Hive pantheon

[abstract pagoda]

I heard of it but I didn't know much about it

I thought it was something else

[lofty badge]

ah

[hollow hinge]

Bro what

Why is Oryx "back"

We have his corpse in our custody....

[sleek matrix]

the echo most likely

[hollow hinge]

Yea they said that specifically but it makes no sense

[sleek matrix]

it most likely revived him and its probz a ghost of him maybe

[slim girder]

His "Ghost" probably

This new dread has the echo

[sleek matrix]

yes

but its possible they rez him

[hollow hinge]

There shouldn't be any possibility of that

We have his body

or the hidden do, rather

[slim girder]

The dread is supposed to be an old foe apparently as they said. Just wondering who it could be

[sleek matrix]

probz a random dread

[slim girder]

Nah that's the echo. They've had the main baddie in all episode posters so far

A very unique looking dread

You can even see it kinda looks like they copied Maya and it's on their mantle

[ember storm]

I mean the thing with oryx’s body is that it’s just his body

The body itself was healthy

It was more like it was just completely drained of his soul

And that picture looks like his soul (I haven’t watched any of the stream)

[slim girder]

That picture reminds me of his projections for D1 when he spoke to us

[empty fern]

Who put an eye on my dreadmaught

https://tenor.com/view/the-emperor-disciples_oryx-gif-25555392

[dim minnow]

those eyes

they look just like the ones we destroyed with Ruinous Effigy

[slim girder]

I'm loving the Cthulhu vibes

[empty fern]

Maybe the hive were lovecraftian all along

Lovecraftian Davy jones

[slim girder]

I just want to know who the big bad is and if it's someone super important or something. Or if it's a more obscure character who's come back as a dread

[dim minnow]

it looks like he is in the key art

that Omen with the sick cape

[slim girder]

Yes. As I said it kinda looks like they copied Maya with using the echo as a mantle

[slim elk]

Huh.
Crotas getting his revenge after all this time?

[sleek matrix]

the echo is very powerful

it has the power of darkness and light

its very possible

[slim elk]

The hilarity is the Echos seem to beeline straight to the people who can cause the most problems

Thats.. 3 times now the villains randomly just find the things?

[dim minnow]

it seems like the Dread was specifically trying to find the Echo

[slim girder]

This newest one hit the dreadnought. So they just got to it first

[dim minnow]

with Maya, she just so happened to win the race to get it since she wasn't the only one reaching for it when it showed up

with Fikrul, it kind of made sense why he got it given the Echo's nature

[slim elk]

Which proves it absolutely sucks at choosing its wielders lol

[empty fern]

Devrim kay next wielder?

[ember storm]

Those didn’t have pupils

Also is that subjugator taken

[dim minnow]

from the looks of it he got some blight

[lofty badge]

it could be a memory or ghost

[lofty badge]

yes it did pick Eramis after all

who hates us XD

who is to stay in some years she won't return with a light and dark empowered fallen army loyal to her to finish us of?

or try to

[jagged badge]

She doesn’t care about us like that anymore

[slim elk]

Honestly Eramis being loose is on us

Apparently we forget we could keep her on a leash and still help Eido

You know.. like Immaru?

[jagged badge]

She just wants to make a home for her people. And she acknowledges Mithrax’s role in providing one in the City. She just doesn’t like the City and wants Eliksni to have their own one

Not as a replacement but an option

[jagged badge]

We don’t need to leash her

She and the Echo have their own shared goal that’s positive to the Eliksni species

So she’s off to do that and not bother us

[slim elk]

So she claims anyway

She's still completely delusional per her parting words

[jagged badge]

No reason to doubt that claim considering she backed it up by choosing to save Mithrax and allowing him to be Kell of Kells for the Eliksni of Sol

[warm acorn]

What was the echo in revenant called? Echo of souls?

[jagged badge]

I don’t believe we got a name for it like that?

[warm acorn]

Oh nvm then