📚lore-discussion

[dim minnow]

but there is no actual confirmation that they are

it is oddly noted that their first appearance is in an invasion force of vex though

[pallid thunder]

This tracks considering how dangerous Wyverns are in grandmasters with that AOE

[dim minnow]

I actually made a mock-up of an excerpt from a "The Taken: Wyvern" grimoire card

since Taken Vex unit grimoire cards seem to describe what the spefcific subtype's purpose is

"You are a Wyvern. A stampeding bulwark. Your first purpose is to guard your fellow builders - to provide them with protection in unfamilar terrain. Your second purpose is to eliminate threats within the unfamiliar terrain."

[slim girder]

The Tyranids from Warhammer are the closest thing to vex from other fiction. Obviously they aren't robots but they to only have 1 purpose and every single unit is a drone genetically made for a specific job.

[pallid thunder]

Their wiki and grimoire cards reference a hostility to all organic life that "gets in their way" does this mean the average bozo would be KOS by a group of builders and a wyvern or in lore would they be ignored?

[dim minnow]

Vex do seem to target anyone who isn't Vex

no matter what

[slim girder]

To vex it's not hostility more they just see something that "doesn't fit"
They don't have the capacity for hating something

[dim minnow]

though Vex do seem to experiment with other organisms

[slim girder]

Vex catalogue every species they come into contact with it seems.

[dim minnow]

like for example, at one point, they captured several Fallen and told them tht if they all fought each other, then the survivors will be freed

[pallid thunder]

The tyranids are powerful and well designed but even they pale in comparison tbh,

The ability to time travel and retain information for billions of years is insane.

They can craft megastructures in a fraction of the time it takes other races.

I wouldn't be surprised if even Chaos would try to avoid that Vex matchup considering everything

[dim minnow]

also, aren't weapons that disintegrate a huge counter to nids?

[pallid thunder]

HUGE

plasma weapons are extremely helpful

[dim minnow]

while it doesn't seem like Vex regularly use those weapons, they can easily make adjustments to adapt

[slim girder]

Neurothorpes counter them through psychic shields

[dim minnow]

also reminds me that Guardians themselves would be good against Nids

since we use a LOT of weapons that disintegrate

fusion rifles, Linear fusion rifles, trace rifles

[slim girder]

The nids worst enemy is anything that destroys matter.

[dim minnow]

not to mention we have on demand disintegration magic

solar, arc, and void power nothing to fuck with

seems like Stasis and Strand do the same as well

[pallid thunder]

Tyranids rely on their keratin and certain forms to try and mitigate it but nothing is stopping a emparators titan main gun.

There was one inquisitior who had a goofy idea that almost ripped apart space time when he managed to coax orcs and tyranids to box and the carnage was unbelievable even by Warhammer standards

[dim minnow]

oh, I think area denial gls also disintegrate

[dim minnow]

bale-eye?

[pallid thunder]

Also

.
Guardians.... May die a lot..... A lichtor would be perfect for hunting guardians

[slim girder]

Nurgle hates nids because every disease he makes they just "evolve past".

[pallid thunder]

Papa nurgle

[dim minnow]

I don't know much of wh40k lore, what;s a lichtor?

[slim girder]

Invisible stalker type nid

[pallid thunder]

A really nasty sob that can squad wipe space marines if they get careless

[dim minnow]

we can go invisible too they ain't specifal

[slim girder]

Yeah but they're genetically bred for each engagement. No heat signature, fluff between plating to mask noise. They're usually sent ahead of fleets to pick off people to cause panic. Could be people of interest or random civilians

[pallid thunder]

They are ALSO capable of killing custodes 1v1

[dim minnow]

could our radars still pick them up?

[slim girder]

Nope

[pallid thunder]

I would say no

[slim girder]

They are truly invisible

[dim minnow]

just flat out no way of being detected by anything?

[slim girder]

Yes

[dim minnow]

no radiation?

[slim girder]

No

[pallid thunder]

The majority of Ultramarines would die 1v1,
In space marine 2 we have named plot armor so we don't die in our fight lol

[slim girder]

@dim minnow small TLDR. When Tyranids attack a norn queen weaves DNA from the catalogue of every living species the Tyranids have come into contact with.
Imagine every good trait from every apex predator made into one creature

[dim minnow]

at least they can't take any DNA from guardians and use it to gain Light powers

[trim grotto]

Tyranids are the Borg

[dim minnow]

hmmm, but if they get their hands on those creechurs Drifter and his crew encountered on that icy world

then we're fucked

[slim girder]

They can resist them though. Chaos gods are paracausal and if they can evolve to resist the equivalent of demon herpes made by the literal GOD OF DIESEASE then I wouldn't put it past them to be able to resist light. I also brought up the neurothorpes that can use physic shields to counter energy blasts

[pallid thunder]

Now that I think about it,
I think a guardian could see it tbh.

Guardians can dodge laser weapons and energy attacks that far exceed most Warhammer speeds,

I think a decent hunter could kill a lictor,

Now Shaw Han? Homie Ded and fed lol

[dim minnow]

I mean, Light ain't a disease

it literally runs parallel to real world phenomenon

I don;t really think you can just "evolve" a resistance to physics

let alone super physics

[sick yew]

One could argue evolution in general is a resistance to physics but thats besides the point

[slim girder]

I hate to say it but Tyranids do that regularly. They're capable of rapid evolution which usually would take millions of years for a species to go.
Us humans coming from apes would take the Tyranids seconds

[sick yew]

Warhammer? In MY Destiny lorechat????

[pallid thunder]

Nurgle is around skyfather level give or take,
He can and will resist universe effects and artifacts easily for him.

Whether he wants to or not would be debatable as he may try to twist and "develop" light into a new disease but as far as resistance Nurgle would probably be able to just outright reject Light and dark or worse corrupt either to his will.

[pallid thunder]

Forgive me, it's all my fault lol

[slim girder]

Khorne is basically like xivu arath and loves bloodshed.
Tzeetch is basically savathun.
Thankfully we don't have a slanesh in destiny otherwise this wouldn't be a T rated game

[sick yew]

https://tenor.com/view/jerma-stare-gif-25080910

[pallid thunder]

Why did you mention that....

You didn't have to mention that creature

[dim minnow]

I still feel that there is a considerable difference between poisons, acid, disease, etc. and they stuff we do with the Light

[pallid thunder]

The ELDAR get what they FN deserve tbh

[slim girder]

We've seen light has a physical form of sorts through savathuns experiments. It can be stored and pretty much treated like a substance

[trim grotto]

we pipe it through the Walls

[slim girder]

^^^

We currently drink potions infused with it

[dim minnow]

we do literally anything with it

we use it to bake cookies out of unsafe-to-consume materials

[slim girder]

Pretty sure that needle we shoved into fikrul had some in it

[dim minnow]

we can use it to protect our brain when someone tries to boil it

[slim girder]

They just got bored ok

[dim minnow]

it was meant to reverse the polarity of Fikrul's Ether

so maybe

[slim girder]

Exactly

[pallid thunder]

Bro.... They put on scene gear and stabbed my rogue trader on their torture world,

I got beef ok

And yes.... I am elantach in rogue trader .. don't judge me

[slim girder]

I still need to play spacemarine 2. I've been putting it off.

I want to compare destiny stuff

Like space marine weapons compared to guardian weapons

[dim minnow]

I'm probably being biased here, but I still don't think a nid can just say no to an Ahsen Wake grenade

[pallid thunder]

If the traveler was discovered in Warhammer the ecclesiarcy would immediately ram it sideways up Big E's ass trying to revive him.

Confirmed

[dim minnow]

if the Imperuim discovers the Ascendant Plane, then maybe they can start learning how to use it so they can get him out of that damn chair

[trim grotto]

Might not end well. Didn't for Ghaul.

[pallid thunder]

[dim minnow]

then again, the Imperium would likely never do that

[slim girder]

You are right it would definitely disintegrate and kill it. But the sheer numbers of nids would make that a drop in the ocean.
Exterminatus is a common counter to stopping Tyranids since they need biomass.
Tldr exterminatus is planet destruction through fire.

[trim grotto]

Something something Halo and the Flood

[dim minnow]

simple, kill a few with a single Ashen Wake grenade, then keep spamming it into groups of them

[pallid thunder]

Give em three named characters and the guardian, ezz claps

Plot armor in Warhammer can shake the very stars

[slim girder]

[slim girder]

Yes because WHY is leandros a bloody chaplain after being the snitch of the last century

[pallid thunder]

[slim girder]

And why hasn't calgar ripped him a new one

[pallid thunder]

It's a punishment for him too

Best boy Calgar did that specifically so he could never achieve true glory or rise up in the ranks

Funny enough the very same inquisitors who arrived to arrest us in the first game were themselves corrupted a few years later

[slim girder]

I really hope Leandros falls on a dumb ork trap or something

[pallid thunder]

No, I want to shoot him myself
Tbh he kind replaced crow on my "shoot this MF list"

[dim minnow]

we need to keep this Destiny-related

Witness sweeps

[slim girder]

Ah yes

Ummmm

[pallid thunder]

Witness..... Sandals?

I think he would have Crocs on underneath

[dim minnow]

like, Witness sweeps 40k

[slim girder]

What did the witness really look like if it "wears darkness"

[pallid thunder]

Bro has the limited edition Darkness Zero Nike, with the high tip and crisp tongue

[slim girder]

Chaos gods would have a ball with the witness. They'd love the fight

[dim minnow]

they wouldn't love the final shape

[slim girder]

True

[pallid thunder]

The witness could probably kill Slannesh and nurgle since they both aren't really combat oriented, Khorne would be a very hard target considering he survived from conflict of any kind, you simply opposing him empowers him.

And Tzeeench has nearly omnipotent levels of intelligence it would be very very dangerous to even speak with it much less fight

[dim minnow]

it also seems like the Witness is dead set on its goals so I don;t think corrupting it is a viable option

question is if the Chaos gods even have a means of destroying the Witness

[pallid thunder]

Just wait till the witness meets the Necrons

[dim minnow]

we know the Witness was almost destroyed by a powerful entity before

[pallid thunder]

Immortal bots will club all gods

[slim girder]

Would the dissenters be a form of corruption? I mean those were the cracks that let us actually wound it

[dim minnow]

it was pushed back to some place

[pallid thunder]

Do we have an age for the witness?
How old is it?

[dim minnow]

eh, I mean, I'm pretty sure the Pale Heart was the main reason we were even able to reach them in the first place

[slim girder]

Millennium

[pallid thunder]

Singular?
What we talking here

[dim minnow]

a LOT older than that

[slim girder]

Eons

[dim minnow]

The Hive are already billions of years old

the Witness is older than them

how much older isn't clear

but it is very old

[sick yew]

The timeline gets very wobbly the further you go back

[pallid thunder]

The witness would be older than 99% of Warhammer then,
Few races reach hundreds of millions and those that did are dead in current lore.

[dim minnow]

actually pretty crazy we take on Hive like the Leviathan Eater who are known to be billions of years old

[sick yew]

We have no possible idea when exactly the Witness back as the precoursers were alive and kicking

[slim girder]

It's just OLD like birth of the universe kinds of old pretty much

[sick yew]

I think the precoursers in a sense can be imagined a bit like how the Necrontyr fit into the timeline of Warhammer

[pallid thunder]

Trayzn the infinite straight up told a battle barge captain that the Necrons have encountered beings older than the "old ones" but even the ctan wouldn't be more than a few hundred million at best iirc.

He does fib some so grain of salt here lol.

[dim minnow]

if Unveiling is anything to go by, then Vex are older than even the Witness

[pallid thunder]

If I combined the universe of Warhammer with D2 sol Solar system, the imperium would probably win considering one simple innovation, it's not light or guardians.
It's space travel,

Destiny can easily travel across the solar system in minutes and that would solve 95% of the imperium's issues.

That alone changes everything in 40k lol.

[dim minnow]

universe with the most wack scale but the shittiest system for fast space travel

[pallid thunder]

It's shittier than you can believe

[dim minnow]

Vex just rewrite history to move around

also use of gates

Hive use the Ascendant Plane which is like Imperium but probably 100x better

Awoken use Ley Lines which is kind of the same as Hive

or is similar

Fallen might use slip-space

not sure though

I know that we use NLS (near light speed)

fun fact, we use NLS drives on our sparrows

[pallid thunder]

For a cruise to travel from Terra to for example Sirius it requires the ship to translate to warpsapce which is utterly terrifying for 3 main reasons,

1: random events like crew dying/mutating teleporting can and WILL happen regularly

2: the warp is as turbulent as it is crazy and if your navigator loses focus over the two months it takes for the translation they might get corrupted/killed and you are stuck for good.

3: at any time any entity be it lesser demon to Tzeeench himself could assault your vessel and instigate a demuculaba within your very ship
(Most ships have a permanent live in populace to operate the ship up to 24000 crew families who are born live and die full lives on the ship without ever leaving the lower decks.

It's literally random every time you translate and sometimes ships are just torn apart in the attempt lol

[dim minnow]

and it takes long too right?

like the time can even randomize

[pallid thunder]

Very, some long range translations can take decades

[dim minnow]

Destiny has the benefit of being relegated to a single system

[pallid thunder]

For example the sister of battle who joins you in rogue trader was lost in the warp for 20 years one time and arrives after her whole group she was sent to join was already dead from heretics

The simple ability to travel between planets itself is absolutely invaluable to Warhammer verse imperium,

The emperor of man would do absolutely everything he could including treaty or invasion if needed to get his hands on the last cities space tech

[dim minnow]

don't the Tau have a means to do this stuff?

[pallid thunder]

I don't know too much about the Tau really,

They as a faction don't really interest me as they use gundam's lol.
Not really my thing in Warhammer

[pallid thunder]

Turns out it's still along the lines of the other races and uses warp space albeit much smaller and less dangerous

Still uses warp so it still inferior to d2

@slim girder funny enough I love snipers in D2 and guess what I gave cassia literally the moment I found it

She was carrying my team from act 1 with a sniper pseudo warlock build using warp stun and crits lol.

Like my hunter in d2

My ship navigator was capping heretics and chaos spawn with this beastie.

Now I want to spam grandmaster nightfalls with solar hunt build lol

[slim girder]

Imagine needing the equivalent of the north star for space travel lol.
Just use jump travel.

[sick yew]

Hyperspeed is a weak concept compared to literally having to pass through hell itself to get to where you wanna go

[lost abyss]

New Lights riding their sparrow into the Fallen Walker on the Cosmodrome:

I wish I found a less crunchy version of this

[next bobcat]

Holy granola is that canon

[sick yew]

Yeah

[next bobcat]

Sped

[hybrid sorrel]

Is there any guardian still alive from the first collapse?

[next bobcat]

Wasn’t collapse before guardians?

[sick yew]

Guardians only came to be after the collapse

That was the event in which ghosts were created

[slim girder]

Guardians and ghosts didn't exist back then

[next bobcat]

Knew it

[sick yew]

But there are still guardians alive from the very early dark ages onwards

Drifter, Shaxx, Saladin to name a few

[hybrid sorrel]

hold on let me say that again.

are there any guardians still alive from they were initially created after the first collapse

[slim girder]

Yes

The ones Alex just mentioned

[sick yew]

Refer to my previous statement
Also you say "first collapse" there was only one

[hybrid sorrel]

how old are they btw?

[next bobcat]

Imagine if all d2 canon was ingame. Just imagine.

[sick yew]

Exact numbers arent known but between 500-800 years is whats generally considered I believe

[trim grotto]

We don't know exactly how long it has been since the beginning of the Dark Ages, nor their age.

Could be anywhere from 500 to 2000 years depending on what you factor.

[hybrid sorrel]

So it could be anywhere from a couple decades to thousands of years and above?

[sick yew]

Yup

Timelines a bit wonky on that timeframe

They never really gave us numbers and shit on how long that stuff went on

[trim grotto]

Not decades. The City is likely about 300 years old alone.

Nor above 2000, most likely.

[hybrid sorrel]

how powerful is the starhorse?

[sick yew]

Infinitely powerful

[hybrid sorrel]

more powerful than the witness?

[sick yew]

[trim grotto]

Starhorse's involvement with canon is questionable at best

Nor can it be defined

[sick yew]

The entirity of Dares should be considered as mostly a practical joke

[trim grotto]

It was part of Bungie's 30th anniversary

Hence all the references to their old games

[sick yew]

Yup

[trim grotto]

Such as Marathon, Pathways, Halo, and more

[next bobcat]

Starhormse peak

[trim grotto]

Also why Dee Bradley Baker is a horse VA now apparently

[hybrid sorrel]

if it's infinitely powerful why do we have to give it sugar cubes, why can't it summon sugar cubes itself? 🤨

[sick yew]

Even gods like gifts

[trim grotto]

Sometimes even an infinitely powerful being likes to be cared for I suppose

[hybrid sorrel]

so it's not about the sugar cubes but about the fact the guardian cares enough to give it sugar cubes?

[sick yew]

Possibly

(again its all a big joke)

[trim grotto]

I suppose. Dares is just a big fun joke, really.

[hybrid sorrel]

@sick yew remove the second statement

[sick yew]

A spinoff episode

The non-canon special

[slim girder]

It can be considered canon but at the same it's not. There is nothing that enforces either argument

[trim grotto]

Best to ignore and move on if you wanna talk lore, imo

[slim girder]

I like to think it was just a funny dream our guardian had when sleeping

[sick yew]

Sounds about right

[slim girder]

I know xur and starhorse are in the final cutscene for the final shape so they are legitimate characters in the world of destiny at but the whole dares thing is really just it's own little corner that doesn't connect with any of the "main" lore that makes up destiny.

[sick yew]

So anyway

Remind me, did Eramis specifically set out for Riis post Ep2?

Or was it just "away"

[slim girder]

She has set out for riis

With the echo she can possibly rebuild

And make a new home for the eliksni

[sick yew]

Gonna be funny as hell when she arrives there and the whole place has just been converted to another Hive warmoon lmfao

[trim grotto]

I wonder how she will contact Athrys.

[sick yew]

Isnt Athrys uh dead?

[slim girder]

I'm more curious if this could set up us ever going to riis at some point. I mean surely the house of light would also go there eventually.

[slim girder]

Unknown. She went off in a different direction during the whirlwind

[sick yew]

Ah

I thought she died lol

[sick yew]

Again realistically speaking theres no Riis to return to, shit either got Exterminatus'd or is now a Hive Warmoon floating aroundsomewhere

Sure the Echo is cool and all but I doubt thatll be enough

[slim girder]

I don't believe riis was destroyed. Not to say it wasn't reduced to being uninhabitable or anything and I don't think the echo can just magically bring it back to how it was.
But imo I think since it did come from the traveler it would have the ability to do some kind of terraforming on a small patch of land to make somewhere habitable again

[sick yew]

From the accounts we've had of the fall of Riis over the years it doesnt sound like they took kind to like anything of the planet lmao

Same case with Torobatl

[slim girder]

Caital wants to reclaim torobatl. So i assume this would be the same case with riis, only difference is eramis now has the capacity to achieve that goal with the echo. Caital on the other may still need some kind of tool to truly have a chance at reclaiming torobatl

Again I don't expect both worlds to get back to their glory days but I see it repeating the steps we took after the collapse on earth

We all grouped together and built a home under the traveler.

[sick yew]

Guess we'll see

Would be very funny tho if in a few years Eramis just comes back and just goes "yeah there was nothing left to save"

[slim girder]

Again I'm curious if this sets us up for anything in future. Probably won't be for a very long time but I would like to see some kind of payoff to that thread.

[sick yew]

mhm

[jagged badge]

Nope

Variks notes that Eramis sent her family away to a different star before she started her empire just prior to Beyond Light

[lost abyss]

I miss my wife Tails

[ember storm]

I mean if it was final shaped, an artifact originating from the traveler would probably help

[hollow hinge]

I genuinely don't see how that could be possible

[ember storm]

Is that not literally what the intro of FS was

The entire universe was getting final shaped repeatedly and the traveler wrestled it back from the witness using light

[hollow hinge]

In the last city, yes

[ember storm]

It was the entirety of earth

And presumably the rest of the universe

Witness wasn’t just doing one place at a time

[hollow hinge]

With the witness just getting control of the powers there I don't think it could've been everywhere

Was more than likely just a test run on earth alone

[ember storm]

That was literally the point of the final shape

The witness was trying to do it to everywhere at the same time

It wasn’t a test run, it was literally just trying to do it from the start

[hollow hinge]

Had the witness been successful at the end, aka during the raid yes

[ember storm]

Mara and the vanguard get final shaped in the helm in front of the traveler

[hollow hinge]

I don't mean that literally, but it wasn't powerful enough to do it outright at that point

[ember storm]

Everytime the traveler screams in the campaign it’s the witness trying to final shaped

[ember storm]

Not powerful, the traveler was just able to put up a fight still

[hollow hinge]

And regardless, what does that have to do with Riis?

[ember storm]

Does the Act 2 cutscene not show Riis in a final shape state

[hollow hinge]

No it doesn't.....

And how could the witness possibly bring riis into a final shape before it gained the travellers powers?

[ember storm]

So what is this supposed to be

[hollow hinge]

Destruction of the planet

It was an immense disaster but not a final shape

[ember storm]

The point of the final shape is ending everything all at once

[hollow hinge]

But the point was also that was the first time the witness actually got a chance to do something like that

Taking the destinations like Titan and Io was the witness' solution after Riis because it was just too much destruction

[ember storm]

So the planet’s crust is transforming into cubes and being pulled beyond the atmosphere and it doesn’t look final shaped to you

[hollow hinge]

Yes because it doesn't resemble this in any way

[ember storm]

The witness simply took destinations from our solar system because it would make us desperate and they held some level of important (Ahsa, the spire/enclave)

[hollow hinge]

The destruction is too random

[ember storm]

Because it’s not at the perfect state where it can apply it to everything at the same time

It’s manual

[hollow hinge]

The witness would've taken them all, earth and traveller included if the traveller hadn't pushed back, no?

[hollow hinge]

No lol, it's a different thing

[ember storm]

I really don’t see any other reason that they’d have parts of Riis that are distinctly being cubes and the other just basic crust

[hollow hinge]

Happy to be corrected but it looks wayyyy too different to me

[ember storm]

So what other reason is there for parts of Riis to be cubes

[hollow hinge]

Who's to say that's "cubes" and not just Riis architecture? Or something else

But it just looks way too different from what we saw in the FS cutscene to be the same phenomenon

[ember storm]

I mean the fact it’s literally going down beyond the planet’s crust when the top portion is completely normal is probably something

[ember storm]

Because the witness didn’t have the power of the traveler at that time? Is that really so hard to believe

[hollow hinge]

If it didn't have the power of the traveller then it can't finalise anything, is that so hard to believe?

[ember storm]

The entire point of getting the pale heart was to affect the entire universe at the same time and not having to manually go to every source of life in the universe to snuff it out

[hollow hinge]

If the Witness could do it to one planet at a time then why not do it in Lightfall?

It couldn't

[ember storm]

Because it was pinning down the traveler the entire campaign which is why Calus was enlisted

It quite literally had more important things to do

[hollow hinge]

No, it quite literally didn't have the power to finalise anything

That's a darkness and light ability

[ember storm]

Ok so

Taking all of that into consideration

Assuming Riis was just regularly old fucked

Why would an echo not be able to save it

[sick yew]

Are we taking that Revenant cutscene at face value rn?

[hollow hinge]

I guess?

[sick yew]

Im pretty sure those new type of cutscenes are mostly for style and not actual events 1to1

Metaphorical and shit

[ember storm]

But why would they have the planet be cubed at all

That’s more effort than just modeling a bunch of basic rock formations

[sick yew]

To vislalise the Witness' involvement id guess

[ember storm]

The pyramids are literally right there blasting it with darkness

[sick yew]

Like if we take that cutscene fr then that means the destruction of Riis and Reef Wars literally happened less than a minute apart from each other no?

I dont think Skolas was standing there randomly choking Awoken soldiers either

[ember storm]

I feel like there’s a difference between visualizing a character being a bad guy and something being the only visual reference we have for a very important historical event

[sick yew]

Also like Tox said I dont think the Witness even had the power to do that to Riis back then

[ember storm]

Like I don’t fully believe Calus stole a chicken leg from his literal infant baby but that doesn’t therefore make me think that the coup didn’t involve Caiatl and Ghaul cornering on his throne

[sick yew]

When earth got Final Shape'd for a moment that was after they already started to combine light and darkness
by the time Riis fell it was just darkness

[ember storm]

Yeah which makes me believe they’re showing an incomplete version

A rough draft

[hollow hinge]

I disagree

[ember storm]

It’s not “perfect” the way the witness wants, which is why getting the pale heart is of the utmost importance

[hollow hinge]

I just don't see a way for them to have this power at all before entering the traveller in FS

[ember storm]

Also like we KNOW what Eliksni infrastructure is supposed to look like

It’s definitely not just that

[ember storm]

So the witness manually just turning multiple people and their ships into sliced bologna is what

[hollow hinge]

I mean the two are clearly distinct from one another

[tacit spindle]

Everyone drop thier coolest Titan lore

[blazing wasp]

Threw Saladin through a tank

[pallid thunder]

Titans are favored by Bungie too much cough cough Olympics rigged

[fiery rover]

shaxx backhanding felwinters head clean off

[jagged badge]

[dim minnow]

oh so Slayer's Fang is also a sentient weapon

add that to the list

[sick yew]

It is?

[dim minnow]

check the new Bungie post

[sick yew]

Lmfao

[pallid thunder]

D2 has one of the cooler settings I've read on,
Especially the hive
They got deep lore

Savathuun getting tricked to basically nuke her own race is absolutely ridiculous and proves the witness is a whole ass punk lol

[frigid sparrow]

Based tbh

[slim girder]

It's the universe put into a perfect stillness only reason riis is being ripped up is because like us they were blessed by the traveler and the witness truly hates the traveler so anything it has touched will be destroyed by the most sadistic of the witnesses abilities.

I don't think the witness would go so far to destroy the planet though.

Ruin all the travelers work though? Definitely

[empty fern]

Whirlwind

Just a slight gust

[lost abyss]

Funny thing, she later tricked The Witness into leaving Sol during the Collapse. Whilst still unknowing of it, and Rhulk's involvement with the Krill choosing the Deep

[pallid thunder]

I can fix her

[knotty musk]

who is drengr

[empty fern]

A dreg with an n

[trim grotto]

Rather than referring to a specific person, a Drengr is term that may refer to a warrior in Norse.

So you could see it as a Viking's/Warrior's Horn

[knotty musk]

ah. it’s a word that already exists

sorry for your time then

[hollow hinge]

Correct but modern translations are boy/lad

[trim grotto]

I don't expect that was in mind when the Aspect was created, but good to know

[low gyro]

wow. so bungie is actually justifying self damage? hmmm

[dim minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/community-ken-jeong-ben-chang-ill-allow-it-allowed-gif-4468552

[slim girder]

I do like that they gave a lore reasoning for it.

Also fun fact

Did y'all know fusion rifle shots can kill you if they ricochet off a barrier champion? I 1 bursted myself in a GM today

[digital ginkgo]

lol

[errant tapir]

hello

why did they launch yang liwei?

did humans want to evacuate into another planet?

or they just want to explore planet?

[trim grotto]

The Yang Liwei was also known as the Exodus Green. The Exodus Program was a colonisation program that had numerous ships - you can see their abandoned bulks throughout the Cosmodrome.

[sick yew]

Or nessus

[trim grotto]

Aye, with Failsafe.

[sick yew]

Exodus Black my beloved

Failsafe our beloved

[trim grotto]

These are some of the smaller ones but colony ships they remain

The Yang Liwei was the most advanced that we know of, but Exodus Black is a good example of how large they could truly be - half of the Nessus patrol map is covered in its wreckage.

[errant tapir]

ohhh

ok ok

i got it

so yang liwei is like us but on mars

[trim grotto]

What?

[errant tapir]

humans want to inhabit/occupy mars

[trim grotto]

The Exodus program was meant to be extra-solar.

As in, outside of the Solar System.

We had already colonised Mars by then.

The Exodus Program was actually a late-Golden Age project, which is why so few ever launched - Exodus Green/Yang Liwei was caught in the Collapse, and many others like the Exodus Blue still lie in the Cosmodrome.

[errant tapir]

ok nice

collapse something about big bang something something yang liwei enter bigbang then bang.... new awoken race right?

[trim grotto]

The Yang Liwei was caught in betwixt a wave of Light and Dark. A singularity formed from the enormity of the combined energies, which the Yang Liwei was sucked into. This became a pocket universe, the shape and form of it and those within dictated by the first to enter.

[errant tapir]

a wave of light and dark caused by traveller vs witness?

[trim grotto]

Some form of Darkness - likely originated from a Pyramid - began assailing the Yang Liwei. A blinding beam of Light engulfed the Yang Liwei from the other end, from the Traveler.
The Collapse was headed by Nezarec, commanding the Black Fleet (Pyramids). The Witness, as far as I know, wasn't personally involved.

Apart from, like, ordering it to happen.

[errant tapir]

did the traveller want to save yang liwei?

why did it shoot a laser?

[trim grotto]

Presumably to save the Yang Liwei.

[errant tapir]

ohh ok noice

[errant tapir]

the reef is a pocket universe?

i forgot the place

[trim grotto]

No, the Distributary is. The Reef is just a section of Sol's asteroid belt.

[errant tapir]

ohh yeah right right

wasn't the reef part of awoken lore?

[trim grotto]

Yes, they settled it.

After Mara and her followers left the Distributary.

[errant tapir]

noice

distributary > reef > dreaming city?

[trim grotto]

The Dreaming City is within the Reef, so yes. Built upon the asteroid 4 Vesta.

[errant tapir]

noice

[slim girder]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't hive orges more beastly hive and can't really be any sort of "leader"?

This is the first time I've heard of an orge having some kind of force behind it at its command.

[ember storm]

I mean it’s probably just the force responsible for the ogre

[slim girder]

Immaru even said that the new strike team leader was an orge and told others to "let her work her magic"

[sick yew]

Ogres are actually quite intelligent
They often engage in philosophical conversations or play chess

(I joke ofc)

[ember storm]

Yeah that sounds like they’re just basically taking her out for a walk

Just let her do her thing, bash some heads in, just keep it on schedule

[slim girder]

I guess i can see it from that side as well

[lofty badge]

Are all fallen that still wear the colors of the house of dusk just outlaws, pirates and anti house of light who don't like mithrax being kell of kells and working with humanity?

or mabye Nesarc cultists if you count the fallen on the moon

[empty fern]

Probably

Saves assets

[ember storm]

Is that a thing?

Anyway the original reason for house dusk existing was for the sake of survival, they realized that civil wars and infighting between houses would just get them all killed

Many were lured to salvation with the pretense of (what else) salvation, but it quickly pivoted toward a war-mongering and zealous agenda, so those who truly just wanted a 2nd chance at life went to Light

[slim girder]

I don't think that's a thing. At least at the time the fallen on the moon are only interested in survival. Bungie even said this during Shadowkeeps Vidoc.

Nowadays though if bungie ever decide to bring current events into the live game there probably wouldn't be that many fallen on the moon.

Either dead, running to eramis, running to house light or still trying to survive on their own.

[lofty badge]

got cha

[lofty badge]

[brittle dirge]

Do we know if house of exile disbanded or something

[slim girder]

I wouldn't know tbh. Unless I'm missing something the only houses left in the system rn are house salvation, (though now I don't think it's going to be that given current events) house of light and house judgement with variks.

[trim grotto]

Out of all the possible scenarios, I'm not terribly surprised that it was the Lucent Brood that allowed this
Who knows how intelligent it is though

[slim girder]

Idk as someone who is very invested in the lore seeing that kinda made me wonder lol.
Like I was picturing an orge giving orders to hive.

Not the usual which is basically a roided out thrall with an eye laser.

[ember storm]

House of exile was never a real proper house

Dusk will always exist because not every Eliksni will be doomer witness supporters while at the same time won’t be willing to come join light in the last city

[brittle dirge]

Ok? Kell’s scourge was a crime syndicate but it still disbanded and left to salvation after siviks died

[ember storm]

It didn’t disband we literally killed every active member

Brigs were just based on insurrection in concept

D1 houses simply melded into Dusk before the start of D2, salvation convinced some to join and light managed to form from refugees of both

This has no bearings on those within actual crime syndicates or the old crews seen in plunder

[brittle dirge]

House of exile still had members that mattered though

All the barons were house of exile at one point

[ember storm]

Because they were all runts

Exiled

It was not a proper house with proper structure or members

If someone were to call you a member it would just be an insult

And the barons were then further exiled from the house of exiles

[trim grotto]

House of Exiles was less of a House than Dusk is, and Dusk is barely a House itself.

Actually this very Episode kind of showed that
They discussed the two remaining Houses and Dusk sure wasn't mentioned amongst them

[hollow hinge]

Topic in Questions got me thinking about one thing.
So the cutscene at the start of Excision makes it clear that a singular fireteam (lore wise) went and "defeated"/weakened the Witness.
Our Guardian is narratively part of that fireteam, correct?

Who are the other 5?

Cuz we all play the same guardian, technically, right?

[trim grotto]

As with all Raids, it is never a specific person or people. That is the realm of headcanon.

[hollow hinge]

So our guardian went alone to the Witness' Monolith but not necessarily into the raid?

That's an... interesting way to handle it but it works, I guess

[jagged badge]

Wdym?

[hollow hinge]

The campaigns are just our guardian, and in them narratively we are alone

[lost abyss]

Zavala says that a "Fireteam" of Guardians stormed the Monolith, during Excision's opening cutscene.

[hollow hinge]

That's the raid

[jagged badge]

The raid is in the monolith. Iconoclasm isn’t

[hollow hinge]

Yea I meant the first tower where Iconoclasm occurs in my original comment

[lost abyss]

It really depends on the player's interpretation, as Mael said. Some of the promotional material depicted 3 Guardians scaling the snowy mountain, whilst some people completed the campaign alone.

[fluid peak]

I was under the impression that the guardian (us) canonically regularly takes other non-specific guardians into raids, isn't there a lore tab somewhere that mentions us doing that for vow where we're constantly clearing out the pyramid in the throne world

[trim grotto]

Return trips to the Sunken Pyramid would be about Preservation

[dim minnow]

you know, I wonder if Fikrul had any involvement in Preservation

then again, the bosses at the end being named "Fikrul's Chosen" could have been a dev oversight

but the WQ storyboards did show Fikrul appearing with 4 staffs

[lost abyss]

Fikrul with four glaives, like a bladed Screeb

[trim grotto]

I doubt it, given that the Scorn there were all Witness allied as far as we know.

[ember storm]

Why is it called fanatic’s chosen when it released years after season of the chosen

[lost abyss]

It probably is, since there was apparently the same type and tier of Scorn named this in Forsaken.

[trim grotto]

Witch Queen also had a few questionably named enemies.

[lost abyss]

Maybe there were more plot threads planned for Witch Queen at some point. It was delayed, so that could've been for any reason.

[trim grotto]

I meant more bugged enemy names

[slim girder]

Sounds weird but I wonder if skolas has any capacity to come back. When you kill him he laughs as you go claim your loot and variks talks about looking at some bio readings.

I wouldn't expect him to replace fikrul or anything but him just being this undying prisoner inside the tomb of elders I could see happening

[dim minnow]

stick around in the arena after you kill him

something funny happens

[slim girder]

Oh?

Damn I've done this 4 times already lol

[dim minnow]

I attempted it but haven't beaten it

that emblem is fire tho

anyways, want to know what happens?

[slim girder]

I got the emblem on my second run but since then have been helping friends.

[slim girder]

Yes. I'll go see it for myself tomorrow

[dim minnow]

||a Revenant Totem spawns if you wait in the boss room after killing him for like a minute. The Revenant Totem then spawns him back in and he leaves. As far as I know, the totem is immune||

[slim girder]

Ok then. ||I was curious as to why off all the scorn he just didn't have a totem, guess that answers that||

[dim minnow]

||we go through all that to kill him again then he just comes back and fucks off||

[lofty badge]

||Skolas for future dlc villian?||

[plain sequoia]

Dude he is very much dead

[lofty badge]

have you done the new tomb of elders mission with Skolas as boss?

[plain sequoia]

Wait fuck is skolas before or after fikruls dead?

Im half awake

[lofty badge]

Skolas was killed then Fikrul brought Skolas back as a Revenant scorn

[plain sequoia]

Watch where gonna go to rebuilt riis and defeat him as a part of a future season

If eremis can even rebuild riis

[hollow hinge]

I hope we never ever see Eramis ever again

[sleek matrix]

That seems likely case

There was a dev interview

And from what they said the ep was meant to wrap up the story for the characters

[hollow hinge]

Good

[lofty badge]

Are there still remnants of the red legion who still fights in Ghaul's name?

who just gives the middle finger to both the shadow legion and the Imperial cabal

[empty fern]

Probably

Maybe in some really small lost sectors without any nightmares

[ember storm]

Bungie keeps crisscrossing who the cabal rebels we fight are so whenever non empire or shadow legion show up they’re either red legion or otzot fanatics

[lofty badge]

ye

tho i kinda headcanon that red legion remnants had been renforced by clones from people like Otzot

[lofty badge]

oh yeah, do Nightmares mind control those near them?

[empty fern]

Probably not, head canon is that nightmare lost sectors are just memories with no actual things in them

Even the unnamed enemies

[lofty badge]

ah🤔

idk about that given most of the unnamed enemies in lost sectors lack the red aura of nightmares

but possbly

[ember storm]

Lost sectors are barely canon to begin with

Only explanation is “city hunters marked a specific location” but that really shouldn’t apply to places nobody has been before like the pale heart or Savathun’s thrones world

[lofty badge]

lol

i just see them as hiding places for the enemy

[hazy veldt]

NEW DUNGEON IN RHULKS PYRAMID

WE ARE SO BACK

as if rhulks lore could not get even better

[sleek matrix]

Yea

I'm actually glad

Rulk is such a good character

[lofty badge]

oh?

there is?

[hazy veldt]

new article

[hazy veldt]

bungie has chronic sickness

every time we get a dope character like nez or rhulk

their screen time is literally 1 interaction

[ember storm]

So like twice

[hazy veldt]

oryx?

gotd doesnt count he dead there

[ember storm]

You seriously comparing oryx to rhulk?

[hazy veldt]

whats wrong with that

[ember storm]

Oryx had the appropriate amount of buildup and a big lasting impact

[hazy veldt]

both sick characters

[ember storm]

Rhulk was just made on the spot

I’m talking situation wise

[hazy veldt]

kinda

but how good was he made

[ember storm]

I definitely consider oryx to be more impactful than rhulk

He actually had a character that wasn’t just daddy issues and loving the witness

[lofty badge]

well the daddy issues were only in the lore for Rhulk

[ember storm]

That doesn’t make it better

Rhulk’s only screentime is complimenting himself and the witness

[lofty badge]

well yeah but he still a cool raid boss

also lorewise, how do the Drifter lure enemies to the locations he choices for a Gambit match

[blazing wasp]

well we know that some of the fallen are spiders, he tells em to show up or die

[lofty badge]

wow that is just cruel XD

[lost abyss]

Counterpoint:

[slim girder]

@dim minnow I saw the thing in kells vengeance. Very interesting ramifications

[dim minnow]

Mf just gets back up, flips us off, and walks off like a G

[slim girder]

Ngl as sad as this sounds I like the idea of him becoming this boogeyman of the prison of elders. An empty husk of a scorn that just roams around the prison and only knows the call of the challenge of the elders.

[dim minnow]

It would probably be better than him being the new Scorn Leader

U less Bungie goes hard on his character

[slim girder]

Well going off what variks said he just raves and doesn't have much of his mind left. Only thing he knows is the call of a challenge.

Don't think he'd be capable of any kind of leadership.

Like a zombie version of taniks who won't die.

Hell maybe the warden servitor even knows he won't die and keeps him locked up.

He can't raise scorn or anything so there's really nothing else he can do

[dim minnow]

the emblem has some Mercury landscape on it too

[fast tapir]

hang on now

don't get my hopes up

I want to see that beautiful pyramid in game once again 😔

I mean the smaller ships are the exact same in the emblem as well

we are going back to Mercury and life will be good again

[dim minnow]

and look, there is actua Mercury terrain on the Emblem too

[sick yew]

It's still wild how underappreciated that patrol space variant was

Shit blew me away back in arrivals

[slim girder]

It does say we're going to back to rhulks ship so not sure what this extra background is meant to be. And the worm in amber reminds of that giant segmented worm on rhulks ship.

[lofty badge]

i wonder if we will fight scorn in that Dun

given Rhulk did make use of them during Witch queen

[oak bough]

it’s not super unlikely

i hate scorn

but they set the bar HIGH with vespers

oh this is questions

wait no it’s not

[lofty badge]

oh?

[slim girder]

My guess is it'll be taken this time. We've been stopping the scorn from getting into the pyramid with preservation so I don't see why they'd suddenly be all over it.

Hive or taken are my bets.

[lofty badge]

yeah

would the lucent hive have a reason to enter the Pyramid with both Rhulk and the witness gone?

[slim girder]

Possibly. Rhulk is dead so there could be something of interest in there.
My question is also if this dungeon will tie into the episode story or if it'll be like vesper where it's seperate.

Vesper had nothing to do with revenant even though it featured fallen.

[lofty badge]

mabye?

perhaps it will give us a glimpse of other deciples out there?

[trim grotto]

I can't imagine there are many more. Where would they be if not by the Traveler as the Final Shape forms?

[slim girder]

Isn't there supposed to be one last disciple? Obviously they're probably aware the witness is dead but then who knows what they might be up to.

[trim grotto]

Mysterious unnamed Disciple who may or may not be alive

[slim girder]

Right.

Still alive or dead opens up pathways. We've killed all the disciples but this one who's taken a back seat might be a lot more analytical than the others if that makes sense.

I don't think they'd pose the same threat as the witness but would still be worth keeping an eye on.

[lofty badge]

man did the witness only ever have four Desciples in total? Rhulk, Calus, nezarec and the unnamed one?

[trim grotto]

Arguably also Savathûn, but yeah.

[lofty badge]

then again the Witness's Disciples were powerful as heck beings that could be considered gods

of course i would consider calus the weakest

[lost abyss]

It could be the first dungeon to feature Dread. They seem to rotate through enemy types, when it comes to featured enemies. Which is probably why Vesper hosted Fallen, as the main threat. Since their last dungeon was Grasp of Avarice.

[dim minnow]

maybe it will be Shadow Legion, it's been a long time since we had a Cabal dungeon

[slim girder]

If a worm is on the emblem then I'm guessing hive. It is also in the throne world so i can definitely see lucent hive being involved.

Honestly I'd expect the same enemies we saw in vow since it's in the same place

[lofty badge]

yee

taken and scorn

unless lucent hive decided to go in

[dim minnow]

too many Taken dungeons

[lofty badge]

yeah

[dim minnow]

Shattered Throne - majority Taken with Dul Incaru and her fatesmiths being Hive
Prophecy - full Taken
Warlord's Ruin - Half Taken half Scorn

also, we had a Lucent Brood dungeon already with Ghosts of the Deep

[slim girder]

Given the episodes name I'd say heresy would fit lucent hive well.

Even if the dungeon has nothing to do with the actual episode story

[dim minnow]

keep in mind that the dungeons are normally not strongly linked to the season's story

even though Deep featured the Hive in its story, the Lucent Brood were not part of it

[slim girder]

I know but if vespers during revenant featured eliksni I think heresy based on the dreadnought would feature hive.

[dim minnow]

Spire of the Watcher had Vex which were not present at all in Seraph's story

[lofty badge]

true

mabye we will get vex?

or mabye not

[slim girder]

Vex in the throne world would be very weird

[dim minnow]

House Salvation weren't even our enemy in Revenant yet a group of defectors were the enemy in Vesper's Host

[lofty badge]

they were mind controlled

who did want to live peacefully but yeah that unkown force took control of them

very scary like

[frigid sparrow]

I think it'll be dread/shadow legion for the new dungeon. Bungie is treating the shadow legion as their own faction, so while we already have duality as a red legion/loyalist dungeon, we still have the chance for the shadow legion to have a dungeon for themselves alongside the dread. I would say that it'd be a dread dungeon, but they don't have the enemy variety to have their own dungeon all to themselves. Shadow legion have also been having their own background story involving Yirix/maybe Otzot as the new leaders of the remaining enemy cabal factions, and we know the cabal are capable of infiltrating The Lure, so depending on how alliances go with the shadow legion and Xivu Arath this could be a form of tactical deployment while everyone's focused on the deadnaught

It'd really suck if it was taken because we just got them for warlord's ruin in what could've been a fully scorn dungeon

[lost abyss]

I don't think we've seen regular Vex in any paracausal transdimensional space, besides the Garden. So, that'd be very alarming, if anything.

[dim minnow]

Vex have been in Throne Worlds before

also the Vex were in the Pale Heart

[lost abyss]

Wait

I know about the Dreadnaught

[dim minnow]

I'm referring to Oryx's in the Books of Sorrow

[lost abyss]

But, why am I blanking on the Pale Heart

[dim minnow]

you can find them during the campaign on Ascent

also during Excision

[lost abyss]

Oh my god

that's right lmao

I suppose it wouldn't be all that weird for them to find something of interest in Sav's Throne.

[frigid sparrow]

Quria:

[desert tree]

question: is there a canon reason why one guy is bigger than the other?

[sick yew]

Its bring your son to work day

[dim minnow]

every faction tends to have a reason why ultras exist

though Cabal is not really explained all too much

all we really have to go off of is that it is tied to ambition/ego but that's from what Calus said so we can't be certain if it is true

[lost abyss]

Can't wait to battle an Ultra Exo Clovis, once he goes full Kaiju and builds a body for his central AI's head

[dim minnow]

you know, a seasonal story revolving around a giant creature made by an enemy faction would be an interesting concept

like say the Hive create an extremely tall Thrall like an Umibozu

or the Vex made something like the Harvester Queen from Independence Day

[frigid sparrow]

massive amalgamation of scorn corpses like the final boss of cod ww2 zombies's launch map

[dim minnow]

for the record, the term "Ultra" is what is used to refer to enemy bosses

[lost abyss]

And that thing from Bloodborne

[dim minnow]

then "Major" is used to refer to minibosses which have yellow bars but are at their regular size

[dim minnow]

The One Reborn

[frigid sparrow]

oh hell yeah this thing fucks

[lost abyss]

I hope it doesn't

[frigid sparrow]

I love that fucked up body horror

hell give me the vex assimilating various races with those mini harpy seeker things

[lost abyss]

Considering what occurred on Vesper Station, we might see more of this type of thing.

[frigid sparrow]

if we start seeing vex exos it'll be peak

[lost abyss]

Maya was already seeing to that, with all of the Chioma frames she amalgamated

[frigid sparrow]

gimme these freaks

[lost abyss]

Evil Pouka:

[frigid sparrow]

make em do some freaky facehugger stuff

[lost abyss]

I hope the Subjugators aren't the last wholly new enemy unit we'll see for a while. I've been holding out hope for a new one through Xivu, or Maya. We kind of got one with Fikrul's Revenants featuring the totem mechanic, which is like a Ghost, if it moved, and you could shoot them.

[frigid sparrow]

I'd love for the dread to get a caretaker-esque artillery unit

abomination type enemy fitted with a bunch of pyramid tech that launches the resonant bees

and more stuff like stasis shanks those are a neat lil addition

[ember storm]

aren’t subjugators just Rhulk’s

The only wholly original dread are Grim

[frigid sparrow]

husks sorta have marauder vibes but they're pretty unique in appearance

[dim minnow]

Grim are also a unique flying-type

[fresh zephyr]

Are wyverns and brigs on a higher level of enemy difficulty than say an ogre or an abomination?

[dim minnow]

Wyverns and Brigs seem to be Vex anf Fallen versions of Ogres, Abominations, Collosus, etc.

Vex also have Hydras

[fresh zephyr]

except its much harder to kill wyverns and brigs

due to their hidden weakspots and high durability

[dim minnow]

well yeah

the higher durability is also tied to their weakspots

[fresh zephyr]

what does that mean?

[dim minnow]

they are durable because their weakspots are hidden

[fresh zephyr]

i see

otherwise they basically don't let your shots do damage

when the wyvern was revealed in the beyond light trailer or any other trailer, were people excited about there being this new cool looking vex frame?

[dim minnow]

probably

new enemy subtypes are always interesting

we normally get them with each major release

though we have been seeing minor enemy subtypes be added like Stasis Shanks

[fresh zephyr]

are those just regular shanks with special abilities?

[dim minnow]

they're shanks with a Stasis field around them

[frigid sparrow]

stasis shanks are area denials that use duskfield

they don't attack, they just wander or stay in place

they're only in exodus down and vesper's rn

they also have a cool mohawk like LOOK AT IIIIT :D

[fresh zephyr]

oh

[fresh zephyr]

I see

looks cool

[lost abyss]

Oh god not these things

They've shattered me so many times during Vesper contest

[lofty badge]

do you guys think it was Yirix's branch of the Shadow legion that sided with the Revenant scorn?

or a other shadow legion force that had no loyality to Yirix

[slim girder]

This kind of enemy is something I'd love to see from destiny. But weirdly I don't think destiny was made to have this kind of enemy with all the legs plus the size.

We have lore on spider like beings but everything we've actually fought so far has been fairly humanoid in appearance. As in stands upright on 2 legs and has arms.

I want more enemies like the war beasts. More animalistic threats that act less on agenda but just on instinct.

[lost abyss]

Helldivers gameplay cross-over event when

We must face the Termanids

[ember storm]

Honestly don’t think much in helldivers would last a week or so against guardians

[low gyro]

yeah, arent the hive basically what happens if you get intelligent (and deeply religious) bugs

[blazing wasp]

Not even mentioning hive magic

[sweet locust]

Is gjallarhorn considered an iron-banner/iron lord exotic?

Someone told me it’s not

Just wanna be %100 sure I’m not crazy

[jagged badge]

It’s not

[sweet locust]

Really?

It has the wolf theme and everything I assumed otherwise

[jagged badge]

It was invented by Crux/Lomar from the melted down armour of Guardians killed in Twilight Gap

[sweet locust]

That’s kinda badass

Knowing that kinda makes me want to run it?

I watched byf’s 10 hour video forever ago, if I remember correctly twilight gab was one of those wars with the fallen having a temper tantrum again right?

[jagged badge]

The Gjallarhorn shoulder-mounted rocket system was forged from the armor of Guardians who fell at the Twilight Gap. Gifted to the survivors of that terrible battle, the Gjallarhorn is seen as a symbol of honor and survival.

[jagged badge]

All the Fallen Houses (save the House of Wolves who were intercepted by the Awoken, causing the Reef Wars) attacked the City and almost won

[sweet locust]

Yeah I gotta use this thing more often.

[sweet locust]

Why tf do the fallen do shit like this then act like victims? Especially eramis.

[jagged badge]

Famously, Shaxx and his fireteam defied Saladin’s orders for a retreat, and their miraculous push helped gain the momentum to win the fight, at the cost of trust between Titans

Though Shaxx and Saladin made up in Season of the Deep

[sweet locust]

This makes me feel less guilty for the fallen now.

[digital ginkgo]

W

[slim elk]

Hypocrisy is all. Funnily enough Saint calls out Mithrax for the same behavior

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i9TQuD3Ckj0&pp=ygUjRGVzdGlueSAyIGxvcmUgdmF1bHQgZ3VhcmRpYW5zIHJpaXM%3D

Timelines sketchy, but it's been implied that one of the first acts the Fallen did upon arrival was to burn London to the ground

[sweet locust]

He should’ve been around to say this shit to eramis

[slim elk]

Yeah.

And now Eramis ran off with the Echo and is refusing to help her people with it

(Reverting the Revenant Scorn that Fikrul turned)

[sweet locust]

What a fucking looser I swear to god

Drops into the system, manipulates some of her people into following her, gets them killed, blames us for it and then leaves.

[slim elk]

There's a reason why people don't like the ending of this season no matter how pretentious some are in defending it lol

[sweet locust]

She’s really the last person who deserved that echo.

[slim elk]

Also a reminder Eramis was front and center leading the charge against the city long before Salvation

[sweet locust]

I just can’t feel bad for her no matter what she’s just a walking hypocrite sign.

[slim elk]

Just listen to the ending speech she has

Blames humanity for everything despite all logic

She hasn't changed

And despite in universe acknowledgement we "could" save Scorn via the Echo.. she's ran off with it

[sweet locust]

“Hey guys I know I lead my house into fighting a soldier they had no chance of defeating and all lead to sad deaths, but it’s your fault that happened not mine, any way I’m gonna take a piece of this machine god and leave, go f yourself👍. “

How tf did bungie expect us to feel bad for this girl??🤷‍♂️

[slim elk]

The same ones who decided that in order to get Eramis "help" we had to let her go free entirely

When we literally have a similar scenario with Immaru who has enough free reign to cause all sort of chaos in the Festival of the Lost

Just keep her on a tight leash while working with Eido

Back to Lightfall writing we go lol

[jagged badge]

Wrong

Eramis is following the Echo’s will to rebuild Riis

[slim elk]

Are.. you ignoring the multiple people in verse pointing out the possibility of it reverting Scorn?

[jagged badge]

So?

That’s not what the Echo wanted. We already know it wasn’t content in Fikrul’s grasp. Eramis realised the Echo wanted to return to Riis and rebuild it, so that’s what Eramis chose to go do

[slim elk]

That's far more helpful then trying to revert a destroyed planet.

We saw what happened to Riis in the song cutscene.. it literally got cracked apart

[jagged badge]

For her people

[slim elk]

As it stands, the logic just isn't there.

[lofty badge]

i mean fallen lives for billions of years

she could have stayed a bit further to help cure the Revenant scorn and then leave the system to rebuild a new Riss

[slim elk]

^^^
Build up trust in her

[lofty badge]

instead she leaves THOUSANDS of her own people as mindless monsterss for us to kill

[slim elk]

It's an easy redemption arc

[lofty badge]

"oh all those Fallen zombies? i will let you deal with it even tho i can likly cure them with the echo :)"

[slim elk]

Instead we are left with "I blame humanity for everything and haven't learnt a thing. Fuck you and goodbye."

[lofty badge]

🗿

ye

i mean the only reason humanity and the guardians genocided fallen houses was because the fallen were agressive to us in the first place

[slim elk]

And as previously said.. who decided we needed to let Eramis go free when we could just stick a leash on her?

Did they literally forget about the same scenario with Immaru?

[lofty badge]

Eido i think

and Crow

[slim elk]

Bad writing strikes again

What i don't get is why some people are trying to defend it

I say we should score a win and secure an Echo for Humanity

Let the Last City not need that title anymore

Humanity finally reclaims its own homeworld and we can journey once more into the stars

[lofty badge]

and with our house of light and Imperial cabal allies

we could use such a echo to terraform the Cabal's homeworld

[slim elk]

Time to bring down the walls and claim our home?

I'd call that hope manifesting into reality

[lofty badge]

yeah

• the awoken do count as a human subspeices

[slim elk]

Technically?

[lofty badge]

yes

as in they orginated from humanity

[slim elk]

They got massively instilled racism though Mara though

[lofty badge]

they are all by all means of course a different people

[lofty badge]

oh?

was Mara mean to humans?

[slim elk]

Earthborn and Reefborn

Earthborn are those who basically stayed true to Maras original intention of helping humanity via doing it directly

Reefborn are those who stayed with Mara and did it indirectly

..
Though Mara went a bit power hungry before getting a huge reality check courtesy of Witness

[lofty badge]

ah

[slim elk]

Best seen with Riven

Mara helped in the Great Hunt... but secretly secured Riven so she would be the only one with the power of the wish dragons

Awoken aside..
What's your bet? Savathun or Xivu getting an Echo and causing grief?

[lofty badge]

I feel like it may be Sava and Xivu vying for one

sending their broods against eachother

and then we step in to stop both

[slim elk]

We could insta kill Savathun at any time

So probably Xivu... somehow

[lofty badge]

yee

[lofty badge]

oh yeah we can..so why the hell do we still bother with her leading her brood against us

[slim elk]

Probably cause Xivus still out there

Only reason I can think of really

It made sense with the Witness still around..
But that thing has been purged.. Savathuns still antagonistic towards us and basically flat out gloats about scheming

[lofty badge]

yee

[slim elk]

Plus..
Guardians have been terrible lately at actually stopping threats lol

Shoot Maya already!

Echoes Episode would have gone better if they leaned into Maya being the first real human antagonist

Actually work with her initially to permanently deal with the Vex

[lofty badge]

yeah

[slim elk]

Would work well
Structure of the episodes being Guardians actually claiming ground and destroying any footholds antagonistic forces have in Sol

Be enough of them around to justify patrols..

But also can let us move beyond Sol safely

Throw Xivu and Fikruls corpses on a pyre to drive the point home... we won

[lofty badge]

yeah

with Fikrul gone the Scorn are leaderless

and can't raise new scorn i think

[slim elk]

Indeed

[frigid sparrow]

Scorn still exist so long as dark ether exists, so with the "vampire" stuff going on and Skolas not actually being fully dead, they'll still be a threat

[lofty badge]

I mean cases of new ones being risen

Unless they can breed and yeah Skolas can come back

But he may just be a wreck mentaly not even able to replace Fikrul

[frigid sparrow]

It's not necessarily that they could breed, it's that they could still infect other eliksni

Dark ether still exists, otherwise the scorn wouldn't be here.

Note that even before the advent of the revenants, the machinist was transporting loads of dark ether, and the ether ritual public events don't need fikrul's assistance.

[slim elk]

Yep
Fikrul was the only real intelligence behind them though

Otherwise they were just basically zombies with guns

Point of the matter is we actually have a real chance to wipe them out

Or.. well
Would if Eramis didn't run off with the Echo

[frigid sparrow]

Whether or not we had the echo isn't really the deciding factor

We theorize that it changes the polarity of light and dark, which is how Fikrul was so easily capable of corrupting eliksni by internally changing their ether, but the reverse is less tested, especially when it comes to those that have already died

And either way, it would've just been "hey eramis go to this scorn encampment and do the laser blast thingy" which is about as effective as just going out and killing scorn ourselves

[slim elk]

Your missing the clear story potential lol

We start reverting the Eliskni Fikrul turned to Revenants, we spit on his corpse with one final insult by showing we aren't mindless killers like he was

[frigid sparrow]

The drama that arises from "what would happen if we turned this zombie back to life" is better suited for lore tabs than actual story, there's not enough there to carry it

[slim elk]

Said lore tabs reveal the majority of the setting and verse though

[frigid sparrow]

Also, proclaiming that we're not "mindless killers" while simultaneously saying we should spit on the corpse of someone who sees the scorn as his children is certainly a take

Like, we already know he's the only scorn out there with an actual capable mind, he's no "mindless" killer, he has reason for the things he does, and his inferiority complex plays a big part in that

[slim elk]

Now he's dead.

[frigid sparrow]

He's someone who's constantly seen as a mistake, a failure, something detestable, and he's rotted from the inside both figuratively and literally because of his physical and mental toils from the dark ether, out constant murder of him, and the humiliation he faces as a "mistake"

[slim elk]

Heh
Your leaving out one key detail. His origin

[ember storm]

Fikrul had a functioning brain but it certainly wasn’t a healthy one

He was still quite literally insane

[slim elk]

Used to be an Archon Priest. A well respected figure among his species

Said "children" are quite literally brain dead zombies

[ember storm]

And then he was throne out

[ember storm]

Nah? They’re capable of speech and such

[slim elk]

Talking general scorn

[ember storm]

Yeah they have the capacity for growth

[frigid sparrow]

The scorn are developing

[ember storm]

You think his knights just started out being good?

[frigid sparrow]

We saw this as early as lost with their fight pits, and we see them now having actual musical cultural capabilities as well

[slim elk]

So..
You are defending a genocidal maniac out to turn his species into zombies?

[ember storm]

I’m sorry where did I say that

The fact of the matter is that scorn are not mindless, and that is part of why they’re bad

[slim elk]

Not you waltz. This thing

[ember storm]

They’re not just mindless corpses, any sense of self is erased and grown into something worth thanks to Fikrul’s influence

Either way scorn aren’t going away anytime soon

All that’s required is an amount of dark ether which theoretically anyone could make with the proper materials

[frigid sparrow]

the traveler is an ambivalent godlike entity that raised humanity's dead back to life without any memories of who they once were so that they may fight an enemy that it brought upon itself and destroyed civilizations due to their endless cat-and-mouse chase

I simply believe that there is actual nuance and that fikrul isn't some "evil for the sake of being evil" type character

[slim elk]

Doesn't really matter now though.
In verse it does seem they treated his death as a mercy kill

[ember storm]

The point of the comparison is that guardians were meant to be second chances that choose their fate of their own volition

Fikrul was buried under the weight of his own obsession and forced countless others into his conflict for his own sake, he couldn’t bare the thought that what he was doing was wrong because it was his only reason to exist

Uldren didn’t just bring him back to life, Uldren gave him the only slither of hope he had, that’s why he followed him

[slim elk]

Said it yourself there Waltz. Not a healthy mind, but one whose existence only continually brought misery upon others

With his threat ended, safely can say most will rejoice about it.

[frigid sparrow]

And an Archon priest who was docked and reduced to dreg status because he spoke out about the eliksni worshipping of machines

if I had my arms torn off I'd be pretty mad too

[slim elk]

Heh. Fair

[ember storm]

Is the archon priest thing brought up in act 3 or what

I haven’t started it yet

[slim elk]

But a sad bsckstory isn't going to have many sign up with the literal space bug zombies

[frigid sparrow]

in passing

[ember storm]

It’s not really super relevant to his current actions, it’s just there to explain how far he fell before Uldren found him

Fikrul the archon priest and Fikrul the exile among exiles are very different individuals

[slim elk]

Seriously, in verse we tried to get Fikrul to see reason with Crow...

Rejected that chance.. so best thing left was to put him down

Which we did

[frigid sparrow]

If anything, seeing crow probably did more harm than good.
he saw Uldren as his father. And he then saw Crow, formerly Uldren, he saw that even his father could become another one of us, another guardian, another dead thing. His father had died, and now there was Crow, wearing Uldren's skin.

[slim elk]

Indeed
All it boils down to. We were anathema to Fikruls worldview

Conflict was inevitable. We won

[lofty badge]

[slim elk]

No need to argue the morality of rotting corpses lol

[lofty badge]

The scorn are also evil as hell xD

[slim elk]

Yep

Basically a universally despised faction

[lofty badge]

They the Fallen zombie Apocalypse

Just look at the scorn, they are deformed twisted things

[slim elk]

Slaved to the will of Fikrul

(Or the Witness)

[lofty badge]

But now without Fikrul.. 🤔

[slim elk]

If one wants to argue morality, Hive Guardians are more worthy of it lol

[lofty badge]

Yeah

[slim elk]

Anyway.

Yeah. Writing is definitely talking a nose dive again

[lofty badge]

Ye

[slim elk]

An apothecary character... being a door

Then more obvious the whole "set Eramis free" deal

[lofty badge]

Xd

[frigid sparrow]

this isn't a writing issue, it's just bungie not wanting to make another character model

[slim elk]

What's weird is how it's so..
Easy to fix
Eramis using the Echo to save Revenant Scorn. Hailed as a savior and gets a support base to go back to Riis

[frigid sparrow]

how would she obtain the echo? you also take issue with eramis being set free, so, what, is it supposed to fly to her in her prison cell?

[lofty badge]

We could have gotton the Echo instead

[slim elk]

You know we have a pretty similar situation with Immaru right? Lol

[lofty badge]

[slim elk]

Keep her on le leash

[lofty badge]

Put a Bomb in her neck

[frigid sparrow]

you mean the same way the witness did?

yeah, that'll show her how merciful we are!

[slim elk]

Reason to be out of the cell and helping to oversee that operation

[slim elk]

All she's ever been is hostile to humanity. Long before Salvation even

She was literally on the front lines besieging the city

That's her conviction

[frigid sparrow]

Namrask:

actual war criminal who was accepted into house light

[slim elk]

Here's what your leaving out

He "wanted" to change

Eramis has at every turn been hostile and belligerent to humanity

Somehow blames humanity for turning the Eliskni to Fallen.. when that happened in the Long Drift while they were traveling to Sol

As her final speech to us shows. This "is" her view naturally
Not being coerced or utilized as a pawn by something else

She even had a mate she could have long returned to.. but instead she has always thrown herself at humanity and cried foul when we resisted the attempts at our extinction

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i9TQuD3Ckj0&pp=ygUjRGVzdGlueSAyIGxvcmUgdmF1bHQgZ3VhcmRpYW5zIHJpaXM%3D

Holding onto old hatreds only brings ruin. Eramis has demonstrated she is incapable of learning that.

[frigid sparrow]

Saint is also like, top 5 worst characters to be giving this kind of speech

[slim elk]

What's wrong with his points?

He's learned to overcome it, yet everything he said here was true

Everything Eramis says is a delusion and she utterly refuses to change

[frigid sparrow]

"in its eyes, even the most innocent of eliksni were still fallen"

[sick yew]

Thats in regards to the old Saint is it not?

During Splicer he was shown the error of his ways and eversince he's done everything to change

[frigid sparrow]

yeah and the post-mission dialogue there is obviously pre-city invasion

[slim elk]

Yep.
My point there is the argument is completely valid

[sick yew]

Hes wrong there obviously
He was still fueled by hate

[slim elk]

Indeed.
Justifiable hatred.

Eramis?.. Fallen attacked humanity at every turn

[frigid sparrow]

Because their god abandoned them for humanity and left them all to die in darkness

[sick yew]

Well yeah but they werent exactly justified to start a crusade against humanity either

[frigid sparrow]

it's not that it's justified, it's just that it's not black-and-white

[slim elk]

There's a clear aggressor and a clear victim here

Morality doesn't factor into it much

[sick yew]

Eliksni attacked earth and then Saint went on a massive slaughter spree
Neither of which are aight its pretty much that simple

[slim elk]

What does matter is who's willing to change

Saint has

Eramis hasnt

[sick yew]

Well by the end shes come around a bit

Not entirely but eh better than nothing

[slim elk]

Finally had a little bit of sanity knocked into her lol

Pissing off the literal god-killer being a bad idea

[sick yew]

Come to think of it, let's say Eramis hadnt banked on using the Darkness with the additional plan to eventually snuff out humanity and simply build Riis reborn as a save haven
I doubt we would have showed much mercy either

Pre Splicer we would have blown that place to shreads either way

[slim elk]

Not sure on that part. We were working with Fallen already courtesy of Zero Hour

[ember storm]

I mean if they were literally just a colony sitting there I doubt it

Vanguard literally saw the scarlet keep being built the whole time and did LITERALLY nothing

[sick yew]

Working with Mithrax was a pretty big exception imo

[frigid sparrow]

one Eliksni

not an entire house

[ember storm]

Most I think we’d do is try and make contact if we learned Variks specifically was there

I don’t think we’d literally kick the door down guns blazing

[slim elk]

Multiple actually.
Variks and the Wolfs who stuck with Mara in the Reef

[ember storm]

We didn’t work with any beyond Variks on coms before that

Actually we tried to shoot them on sight when we first met Mara

[sick yew]

"Guardian, we have reports that a new Fallen house is on the rise on Europa, we have to stop them before they become a major threat. Kill them all" is what the intro to a hypothetical strike on Riis reborn would have been if shit had went differently

[ember storm]

Also these were the same wolves who later rebelled and slaughtered a bunch of awoken months later so like

[frigid sparrow]

has the possibility to be the saddest yet funniest strike of all time

[sick yew]

[slim elk]

This is what annoys me a bit about how Bungie handled Zero Hour
The "briefing" for the mission would have been a defining scene

Seeing Mithrax and his Fireteam..

[ember storm]

The fireteam didn’t even want us to be there

[frigid sparrow]

"zavala? why were none of them firing back?"
"great job, guardian. now with the fallen threat gone from europa for good, the vex and the newly-arrived pyramid will remain our priority targets-"

[ember storm]

The point of zero hour was Mithrax taking a gamble to see if the big Guardian™️ hero would be willing to lend a hand personally

[sick yew]

Bungie hyping up Mithrax's fireteam to the point where it seemed like Crow would join them post Splicer only for them to be completely written out and never heard from again is one of the biggest crimes the lore team has ever committed

[ember storm]

Also I sort of doubt Zavala would be like that considering his reaction to the end of the Mithrax Titan mission

[slim elk]

Indeed

Goes back to consistent issue of Bungie keeping our character silent when we are one of the most influential Guardians in existence

[ember storm]

I don’t really see how that applies

[slim elk]

Simple:
If we speak, people will listen

[ember storm]

Actions speak louder than words tbh

All people need to know is that we did it at all, why would you need a big grandiose speech about it

[sick yew]

I was about to say we didn't have any involvement in that
The loretab teased that Crow would join the two unnamed guardians who were Mithrax's fireteam during a season where Crow wouldn't be present in the main narrative

[ember storm]

Like “wow The Guardian™️ worked with a fallen to stop a fallen invasion inside our city walls? That’s crazy”

[slim elk]

And that's the point of it all lol

Let it be known the Guardian is willing to give this Fallen a chance

[sick yew]

Also idk I've always been pretty fine with the fact that we hardly appear in the lore
Makes the universe feel more grand and that it doesn't revolve purely around us

[ember storm]

You can just like

Play mass effect if you want that

Guardian just isn’t that kind of person tbh

[sick yew]

Imagine if our guardian would just randomly walk in during one of rhe various loretabs detailing Shayuras story
Like a celebrity cameo in some kind of sitcom

[slim elk]

Yeah.
It just goes too far in the opposite direction at times.

Like.. how did we notice the Final Wish in Savathuns wings when both Ikora and Eris were in the room and didn't notice?

Or how Saint idolizes us.. but we don't have any dialogue with the man?

[ember storm]

Because Eramis was facing her probably and slit her throat

[ember storm]

Because Ghost literally had a whole conversation with him about who we were and what we’ve accomplished for the city

[sick yew]

I mean he idolizes us for our actions mostly

[slim elk]

...
Where was Eramis in Season of the Witch? Lol

[ember storm]

I’m tired a hungry but either way

Guardian totally strikes me as the person to just have the mind wander and think about fuck all while cutscenes are happening