📚lore-discussion

[brittle dirge]

SIVA tried to be flood but didn’t have the m rating which let the flood thrive

The teen rating limited the horror of ROI and destiny in general greatly

Because some of these designs and topics are really fucking dark

[upbeat bolt]

i missed the entirety of lightfall but how the hell is savathun alive if we killed her in wq

[errant tapir]

Gasp

A lore question I can answer

But I only remember parts of the answer

FUCK

[dim minnow]

she is a Lightbearer like we are

she has a Ghost

at the end of WQ, we kill only her while Immaru (her Ghost) escapes

[errant tapir]

Is this the part where we stole her corpse? Lol

[dim minnow]

yeah

[upbeat bolt]

so for what reason did we allow immaru to revive her

[dim minnow]

she knew how we could follow the Witness

so we had to let Immaru rez her

[errant tapir]

So we made a deal with both devils?

[dim minnow]

however, Immaru wasn't going to do it unless we got rid of Xivu Arath first (which Savathun arranged)

[errant tapir]

Savathun and riven?

Fuck immaru

Fuck savathun too

I wanna punch her in the face so hard so many times

[fast tapir]

she didn't even do anything bad to us

[slim girder]

She's very "I meant to do that"

[blazing wasp]

Saint beat you to the punch

[errant tapir]

ik ik

[trim grotto]

Ahsa told us to, actually. As she would show us the way to the Witness. That led to Season of the Wish via Riven's egg that Savvy had.

[ember storm]

Savathun’s last words in WQ were “don’t say I didn’t warn you”

It was very much set up she’d be revived

[jagged badge]

We kill Savathûn in WQ twice even and directly watch her get revived after the first time

[lethal island]

Lore related question . What primary does saint 14 use in battle?

[jagged badge]

I don’t know if we’ve seen him with a primary

His signature weapon is just Perfect Paradox

[ember storm]

I will cope and say Steelfire repeater

[lost abyss]

Which is interesting, because post-res during the fight she seems to be doing fine and still adept at using the Light. And, after Season of the Witch, it's stated that Saint was able to kill her multiple times since she hadn't been used to being revived.

[ember storm]

No, that was his excuse

He claimed it was training but it was literally just revenge

Also it’s just the idea of being unaccustomed to resurrection means you’ll be discombobulated for a few moments

Saints “training” was getting her used to the idea of being dead and then all of a sudden not

You can actually see in the Witch cutscene Savathun is disoriented by the rez having to catch her breath, similar to Crow’s first resurrection

Compare that to Crow being rezzed after being shot by Amanda, he’s gotten used to it

Experienced Lightbearers basically don’t even lose focus from dying, it’s how thanatonauts grind out research

[lost abyss]

Oh, so it's only for a short time? That would make the first time she dies and is revived during the campaign's final mission make sense.

[errant tapir]

Day 14 of asking fun facts lore

[lost abyss]

Rose, Thorn, and Lumina are all the same gun from different periods of transformations, in that order. (I hope this one wasn't already done )

[jagged badge]

Technically the order would be Rose, Thorn, Rose, Lumina iirc

[lost abyss]

ty

[errant tapir]

Oh yup I got it figured out because of the perks

1 essentially needs the other one

How about house salvation? What is house salvation?

[trim grotto]

An Eliksni House founded by Eramis shortly before the events of Beyond Light, that began to claim and use the power of Stasis.

We had a whole campaign about it

[jagged badge]

Hm?

[trim grotto]

also i am not sure what you mean by this

[trim grotto]

Yeah, I get that, but I don't know what you mean by "1 essentially needs the other one"

[errant tapir]

Oh the guns

They fulfill each other's requirement

So that's how I know they are connected somehow

[trim grotto]

They're functionally different Remnants.

They don't work for one another.

[errant tapir]

Oh really?

Wew

[jagged badge]

Yeah there’s no synergy or anything between them

[lost abyss]

Honestly, I feel like something interesting could be done in gameplay with the remnant mechanic that is similar between the two.

The game really shines when there are unique gameplay interactions between weapons and armor.

Two exotic weapons having something unique would be, a novel concept afaik

[trim grotto]

I don't think that should be implimented here. Lumina has a similar core mechanic due to the shared history it has, and I support that, but they should not cross over - they ought to remain distinct.

[lost abyss]

Actually, I agree. On the topic though, I always felt like Last Word and Thorn should have a special text in the Crucible kill feed after either opponent eliminating each other more than once, consecutively.

[trim grotto]

haha yeah that'd be fun

[slim girder]

Not really they are just 2 sides of a coin if that makes sense. They both have similar perks because they are both the same gun.

They also represent different ideas. Lumina is a weapon of hope and thorn is a weapon of sorrow

[errant tapir]

who made it?

[slim girder]

We made lumina

It's the original thorn reborn with light

The original thorn had been locked away in a sealed crate with protection charms because it was calling out to anyone it could. Shin malphur the person who killed dredgen yor the owner of the original thorn kept it until he decided to give it to us and from there we started driving the dark power from it and turning it into something new.

[errant tapir]

what

where is the origin of thorn?

before dredgen got it

maybe somewhat creepy cave/dungeon with boobytraps?

[slim girder]

Thorn belonged to a titan named rezyl azzir. It was called rose at the time. During a trip to the moon rezyl fought a wizard and a knight, he killed the knight but didn't kill the wizard. So as a trophy he attached the bones of the knight to his weapon, but he didn't realise that these bones of the knight had a dark connection to the wizard so overtime these bones corrupted him and turned his weapon into what would be known as thorn

He also became dredgen yor.

A dark guardian who murdered others to feed his weapon

The original thorn was able to kill a guardian in one shot as it would consume their light

[errant tapir]

WHAT

[blazing wasp]

Permakill without harming the ghost was the important part

[slim girder]

Yes this also

[lost abyss]

The concept of a Weapon of Hope is really fun to play with, because it's simple. I'm sad that Lumina is really the only of it's kind. I wouldn't mind a similar application to other Weapons of Sorrow, like Osteo Striga, and Necrochasm.

[slim girder]

Shin malphurs mentor jaren ward was killed by dredgen yor trying to stop him and so jaren passed down the last word to him. Shin was then able to kill dredgen yor and put his thorn away for safety.

[slim girder]

I hope we get more weapons of sorrow but at the same time I want weapons of hope to rival them. Like imagine an exotic no hesitation to rival necrochasm. Or an SMG to go with osteo.

[lost abyss]

If you think that's crazy, there are Thralls in the Hellmouth that could eat your Light. The Hive have a multitude of ways to give a Lightbearer a final death, without needing to harm a Ghost.

[lost abyss]

Oooo, the new auto rifle archetype would be such a great candidate for a new Weapon of Hope concept.

[slim girder]

"Those thrall will smother your light" was said by eris when we attempted to delve into the dreadnought back in D1

A pulse rifle that does the same thing that red deaths catalyst does could rival bad juju

[lost abyss]

Funny note, iirc Bad Juju was Toland's failed attempt at a Weapon of Sorrow.

[slim girder]

It's still classified as a weapon of sorrow as it is a combination of hive and human and has a hunger for killing

Bungie just don't classify it as one in the game

Yet

[lost abyss]

Ah, I was about to mention it not having an interaction with Necrotic Grip.

[slim girder]

There's always a chance they could update it one day

[lost abyss]

That would honestly, be good for the weapon's place in the sandbox. Granted the poison spread from Necrotic wouldn't trigger Bad Juju's traits.

It would be unfortunate, if that was the case.

[slim girder]

The poison doesn't trigger thorns remnants either. It's made to be it's own thing.

Probably intentional because that'd be a bit too powerful I think

The AoE is just an add on to the weapons. Doesn't actually synergize with their perks though

Like how boots of the assembler goes with lumina

[lost abyss]

iirc Necrochasm's poison from chain explosions will proc Necrotic's DoT

[slim girder]

Yes

Necrotic grips will add that AoE to any weapons of sorrow. Boots of the assembler at least right now states it's just for lumina.

[lost abyss]

I may be wrong because I don't have Necrochasm to test this, but if the chain explosions, following the initial explosion, can spread Necrotic, that would be synergy with it's perk, right?

[slim girder]

The explosions leave poison behind. If enemies are killed by this poison it'll spread the perk. What I meant by synergy is like for example necrotic isn't giving you desperation or reloading the weapon.

Same with thorn. Only way to get remnants and keep soul devourer going is through kills with thorn itself

[lost abyss]

Ohh, gotcha.

[slim girder]

It's just making those weapons even easier to keep their loops going because now that everything has DoT on it, even the bigger targets are easier to kill.

Your capacity for slaying out goes up by heaps and you use less ammo in general as it'll keep spreading so long as it gets kills

[lost abyss]

Another note is, I think Necrotic Grip is the only way to mitigate the cooldown that was given to Osteo's poison spread.

[trim grotto]

nekotic grips

[slim girder]

Yes we're talking about weapons of sorrow/hope my favourite lore

[trim grotto]

[lost abyss]

Nekochasm

[slim girder]

Nekotising weapons

[errant tapir]

so much lore

I will read with extreme prejudice

[trim grotto]

this is the way

[slim girder]

Wonder "revelations" the hive will be dealing with in heresy. Maybe they might start trying to reject their worms or something since the witness is dead.

Or maybe oryx had some secrets locked away the savathun or xivu didn't know about. Would make sense if that episode is supposed to be about the hive pantheon

[empty fern]

Hive finally realize pyramid schemes suck and write themselves off

[errant tapir]

What is pantheon?

[errant tapir]

Where is hellmouth?

[slim girder]

The hive pantheon are the 3 hive gods oryx, savathun and xivu arath

[slim girder]

The moon

That giant hole

[errant tapir]

Ohh heist battleground moon?

Warmind? Rasputin?

[slim girder]

Eris and her fireteam went down to avenge the deaths of thousands of guardians who were killed by crota but they failed and all died except for eris morn who lost her eyes and ghost.

[slim girder]

No

It's a hive fortress

You can see it on the map

[errant tapir]

Oh...

Oh the red castle?

[slim girder]

No that's the scarlet keep

[errant tapir]

[slim girder]

Look on the moon map. It's labelled

Bottom section you should see the hellmouth

[errant tapir]

What about the past pantheon event?

Does it have to do with hive?

[slim girder]

No. The Pantheon event was just a cool thing to give players something to do since at the time final shape got delayed

A raid boss gauntlet

[errant tapir]

Got it

I'm sleepy now it's late

Gonna hit the sack

Gudnite

[slim girder]

Gn

[ember storm]

Pantheon is an actual term relating to a collective of important people/gods

[lost abyss]

My preferred reference to the first three Hive Gods is "The Osmium Siblings". I think The Hive Pantheon is a term used more often in-game references though.

[ember storm]

osmium court is an actual coined term

[errant tapir]

What is osmium?

[trim grotto]

The three siblings of proto-Hive who would eventually become Oryx, Savathûn, and Xivu Arath, were originally of the Osmium Court, a group of proto-Hive living on Fundament.
Osmium itself is a type of metal or ore.

[errant tapir]

Oh nice

[trim grotto]

Have you had your fun fact of the day yet

[errant tapir]

Nope

Hit me

[brittle dirge]

Can I grant one as well

[errant tapir]

Sure

The more the merrier

[brittle dirge]

Cool

[trim grotto]

It’s taken me two years — a quarter of our lives — but I’ve found the proof. We aren’t native to the Fundament. Our ancient ancestors came here to hide.

The plate of stone we live on, our Osmium Court, is one fragment of a rocky planet that crashed into the Fundament and broke apart. All the other nearby continents — the Helium Drinkers, the Bone Plaza, the Starcutters — came from the same world.```
The proto-Hive did not, in truth, originate from Fundament... but a planet that crashed into Fundament and was torn apart by its storms.

[brittle dirge]

Almost all factions have a relation to the hive in mostly a negative way

Hive have legends of fighting worm gods (mind bender also had a hive wife make of that what you will)

Cabal have been terrorized by hive for a long time

Vex… uh… I can’t think of anything for that

Scorn are just zombie fallen so

Taken came from oryx (sorta) and thus hive

[errant tapir]

2 year = ¼

8 years = 1

They have a life expectancy of 8 years?

[errant tapir]

Okay....

[trim grotto]

They did as proto-Hive yeah
Before they took the Worm Parasites and became Hive as we know them

[brittle dirge]

Not all species are immortal like fallen

[trim grotto]

Fallen have indefinite lifespans, not immortal lifespans

[brittle dirge]

I often get the two words confused

My bad

[trim grotto]

Also if you hear anyone say Krill, that is just another word for proto-Hive

Sort of

[brittle dirge]

Speaking of

I do really like that Bungie actually fleshed out the species in Destiny

It is a good thing they have done

[errant tapir]

@trim grottowhat creature is this?

[trim grotto]

Big Parasite Worm

[errant tapir]

oh

from where?

savathun?

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/worm-wurm-destiny-2-d2-savathun-gif-13359494742184581955

[trim grotto]

Vow of the Disciple, right? Rhulk created the Parasite Worms by carving them from Xita's flesh and giving them life.

[errant tapir]

yup, who is xita?

[trim grotto]

I don't suppose you took the time to look around whilst in the Pyramid?

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-the-witch-queen-witch-queen-throne-world-pyramid-gif-25077436

what do you see

[jagged badge]

THE UPENDED

[trim grotto]

oi

[errant tapir]

i'm in votd

i have no time to look around

[trim grotto]

sure you do
it'#

it's a massive backdrop of the entire raid

the whole point is that you go closer to it

you've been able to see it since you first got into the pyramid

[errant tapir]

is it this?

[trim grotto]

look below the floating thing

that's a maw

[errant tapir]

hmm

i dont think i see a building suspended in the air

i'm in caretaker

[trim grotto]

You can see it both before or after Caretaker

Once you finish there look out over the edge, when you get to the loot chest

[errant tapir]

okay

😄

[trim grotto]

That is Xita

The Mother Worm

Mother to the Worm Gods who made the Hive who they are

Mother to the Parasite Worms that give them their power

[slim girder]

Now finish the raid and go into the preservation mission afterwards. You'll see something.

[errant tapir]

What preservation?

[slim girder]

It's a mission that should unlock after you beat the raid. Centres around keeping the scorn away from the pyramid but when you get inside you'll see something has changed

[jagged badge]

You don’t need to beat Vow to unlock Preservation

[trim grotto]

yeah but it makes sense to do it after

[jagged badge]

It was world’s first that unlocked it

[jagged badge]

Oh yeah ofc, just correcting that one bit

[slim girder]

Ahhh ok then. Didn't know that. Thought since preservation was tied to it that you'd need the completion

[slim girder]

Ngl I do wish we had more "aftermath" of raids. Excision and the dreaming city curse were the best we got but things like the eclipsed zone in beyond light were also cool

The Leviathan had pretty much no repercussions.

Crota wasn't immediate but oryx heard us kill him.
VoG had no aftermath either

VoTD wasn't anything huge

Just having any kind of consequences to our actions would be cool. I don't think destiny gets much of that. We just deal with big bad and move on

[sick yew]

Theyve only done the whole "post raid" shit since Forsaken really

Forsaken was well the dreaming city curse
Shadowkeep was just Vex spawning on the moon ig (tbf initially there was season of the undying)
Beyond Light had the eclipse zone
Witch Queen had Preservation which isnt exactly a proper map change but a neat mission at least
Lightfall had.....nothing actually
And well Final Shape had Excision which might aswell be one of the best missions the game has ever seen

[jagged badge]

Nuh uh. Lightfall had the Apogee Repeaters

[sick yew]

The who

[dim minnow]

technically, some Strand fragments and Last Warning were also post-raid

[sick yew]

It hardly compares to the other examples tho

[dim minnow]

however, Bungie decided to release the other fragments early which also gave us access to Last Warning early

[jagged badge]

The little collectible Pyramid tech thingies

They appeared post-world’s first and they gave triumphs and I think Strand Meditations?

[dim minnow]

good way to get strand meditations

[jagged badge]

https://tenor.com/view/captain-ray-holt-vindication-brooklyn-nine-nine-b99-gif-12390404

[sick yew]

B99 mentioned

[slim girder]

Captain holt the goat

[sick yew]

Rip Andre Braugher

[slim girder]

I know

[sick yew]

Great actor

[slim girder]

Such a good actor

I wanted him and Lance Reddick to do a collab or something. I think Andre trying Zavala would have been a cool thing to see

[slim girder]

Would the neomuna citizens not having nightmares anymore count?

[errant tapir]

[slim girder]

I remember that's why we even went there in the first place to target the source

[errant tapir]

WHAT

[sleek matrix]

Yes

Nezarec was the cause

[errant tapir]

How do a digital person get nightmares?

[trim grotto]

They're still people. They're in stasis. They're just currently connected to the CloudArk. It's like using really good VR.

[slim girder]

The neomuni still have emotions and everything inside the cloudark

[sick yew]

Thats a lore thing yeah but that doesnt impact the map or gameplay at all

[slim girder]

They are just in a digital plain

[sick yew]

Neomuna is basically just a big VR chat lobby

[trim grotto]

The people will wander the streets once more when the Shadow Legion are gone.

[slim girder]

If we're looking for comparisons think SaO if you have seen that anime

[trim grotto]

Thanks to my autocorrect for changing when to more and the to more, making it read more more more

Why does this happen

[slim girder]

More

[sick yew]

Im going to ban you now

[slim girder]

Awww

[errant tapir]

I didn't get any mission quest btw?

243 mins

VoTD

Fun

My sanity?

[slim girder]

Look on the map near the raid icon. It should be there

[errant tapir]

Gone reduced to atom

[slim girder]

Did you at least get collective obligation?

The exotic?

It's cool for void builds

[errant tapir]

Nope

[trim grotto]

Preservation is in the top left of the map. You may need to do some post campaign for it to unlock.

[slim girder]

Unfort

[errant tapir]

But I got one thousand voice and 2 the other half's at the same time and at the same day

Ah now I can brag

[slim girder]

Was it legit riven though

[errant tapir]

U telling me that like I want to add 2 more hours of my sanity gone

[errant tapir]

i found it

the little baby witch queen icon on the bottom of the raid

[slim girder]

Great

[trim grotto]

Hey do you have Parasite yet

[errant tapir]

i...do not

how to get it?

[slim girder]

A quest in the enclave

[trim grotto]

Post campaign quest

Bring it for the 2nd run of Preservation
You get unique dialogue

But don't worry about it for now

[slim girder]

Go there and check at the very back of the place past the crafting relic. If you've done the campaign it should be there

Pretty cool quest

[errant tapir]

hmmm

[sick yew]

We talking Parasite?

[slim girder]

Since immaru and the worm are both with us I wonder if there's been any plans or something between them.

Wouldn't be surprised if savathun wants immaru or the worm in the city for some reason yet to be revealed

Even to them.

[ember storm]

They wouldn’t be helping each other at all

Savathun completely abandoned her worm and then also put a curse on him if he tried to reveal anything about her secrets

[slim girder]

Doesn't mean she couldn't use it in some way. And also nothing stopping that worm from learning anything about us as well.

[ember storm]

She infected the entire city with Savathun’s song and didn’t do shit with it

Like I’m all for being cautious but becoming paranoid that literally everything Savathun’s ever touched is a trap is also exactly what she wants

What would a worm that periodically stuck in our vault be able to do that Immaru wouldn’t be doing already

[slim girder]

I know. Just speculating is all. Having both immaru and the worm with us will always be suspicious to me. Even if both of them might not even know they're part of a plan.

Just having them around even if they're not capable of doing anything raises an eyebrow

[flat jolt]

There no lore/story for exotic ornaments right?

[ember storm]

Not really no

Some of them reference real things but that doesn’t mean it’s actually related to the real subject

[slim girder]

I like to view them as "what ifs" for weapons.

But usually it's just cool looking skins to fit a theme.

[lost abyss]

I still want the old Eriana ornament from Undying 💔

[lost abyss]

Wdym, Thorn clearly went thru another transformation in Root of Nightmare's ||/j||

[trim grotto]

<@&1019968308973416448>

[wooden trellis]

?

[jagged badge]

Pardon our dust

[wooden trellis]

I think it more than some dust

[junior bear]

nothing to be seen here

move along folks

[rigid fiber]

msgnuke barely did anything guh

[trim grotto]

This is breaking mobile discord something fierce

[junior bear]

most things break mobile discord

[noble shard]

Yeah my app got cooked

[wooden trellis]

I was thinking why did my and other people's messages get deleted, but the racist slurs stayed.

[trim grotto]

Anyways, thanks Mod Squad

Now for lore

[junior bear]

so whats the deal with taniks huh?

[trim grotto]

Probably dead! But that means Scorniks is possible instead, haha

[flat jolt]

Any particular reason Luzaku was the only one who got “enlightened” from the Lucent Hive, other than Ms Savva obviously…

[trim grotto]

No, not really. She felt hesitation from the get go.

It's hard to break away from a millenia old culture of what you once thought to be religious truth.

There is an early entry of hers though

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/euloch

Her Ghost is more bloodthirsty than she is, interestingly

[flat jolt]

Now that Osiris doesn’t have a ghost to channel Light, does this mean:

1. He can only access Darkness powers
2. He has to die and get reset by another wandering ghost to be a lightbearer again?

[trim grotto]

Yes
No

To our understanding, no Lightbearer has ever had a second Ghost, flat out. It's never happened, even after death.

You are correct, however, in that he can no longer channel the Light, yet can still channel Darkness.

[flat jolt]

So far in canon lore only the playable character has access to prismatic right?

[trim grotto]

There haven't been reports of others using it, but others followed shortly in our footsteps for Stasis and Strand. I expect Prismatic shan't be far behind.

Though not stated, I would assume they already exist.

[flat jolt]

In your opinion, with what we know now, was the speaker right to exile osiris? I remember they had very differing philosophies and views towards their many enemies.

[slim girder]

Ikora can use strand now

[flat jolt]

And we had that awesome clip where zavala embraced stasis, but they havent merge light and dark together yet

[slim girder]

Zavala can't channel light anymore though. He's lightless

[trim grotto]

Osiris wasn't wrong in his assessments of threats, nor his desire to understand the Darkness. However, he had abandoned his duties as Warlock Vanguard and Vanguard Commander, and allowed a rioting cult of fear mongering to form in his name preaching his prophesies, which he did naught to quell.
Exile may have been extreme, but it was early days in the Last City, and peace was tenuous.

[flat jolt]

😲 that is news to me. Have to go look it up. What happened to his ghost?

[slim girder]

Have you played final shape?

[flat jolt]

F2p here, i check out youtube videos of story gameplay and byf stuff

[ember storm]

Targe went up north to a nice butterfly farm

[lost abyss]

Sagira and Targe can now both brag about thwarting powerful darkness users in similar fashion

[errant tapir]

Day 15 of asking fun facts lore chat

[trim grotto]

Shin Malphur, also known as The Man With The Golden Gun, is a Lightbearer. He was resurrected by a Ghost as a baby. However, his Ghost died only months later. We don't know how he can use the Light.

[errant tapir]

Ohh shin malphur

The guy that killed the previous owner of thorn

Oooo a hunter huh

Do we know how did the ghost die?

[trim grotto]

Yes. Hunted by Fallen.

The Ghost led a band of Fallen away from a refugee group, saving them, but died in the process.

[flat jolt]

Wait then who took care of a resurrected <1 yo baby Shin?

[errant tapir]

Noooooooo

GHOSTT

[trim grotto]

The child was in the care of a group of survivors, and eventually lived in a village where he grew up.

[flat jolt]

Hmm, that means somehow Zavala and Osiris can find the secrets to channeling light without ghosts

Now everyone can be a guardian.

[jagged badge]

Not likely

Shin will probably remain a specific outlier

[flat jolt]

Shin existed back before the Iron Lords creation right? So osiris and existing members didn’t actually know him irl?

[ember storm]

Shin was city age

Thorn was created long after the great disaster even happened, shin grew up and aged normally

[flat jolt]

Hopefully we get an answer to this abnormality

[jagged badge]

We likely won’t

Shin will probably remain a specific mysterious outlier

[flat jolt]

So many questions lie unanswered. Sad.

[jagged badge]

Not every question needs to be answered

[trim grotto]

To be fair I think everyone wants this specific one answered

[jagged badge]

https://tenor.com/view/holes-grandpa-thats-too-damn-bad-gif-15698581

[slim girder]

This has been a question posed for nearly a decade a now. I think an answer would be ok now as to if shin is wielding light without a ghost or if jarens ghost has been "connected" with shin

[ember storm]

People simply don’t want to believe the simple answer

LW had a lingering reserve of light remaining in the gun, and Shin’s nature as a risen, even if for a short period of time, was able to tap into it

Given everything we know about light I wouldn’t immediately rule the idea of lingering power out of the question (there is a precedent for it)

If this is to be my equivalent of dova’s “Cayde actually did manage to kill Micah as a child and she was promptly exofied without realizing” moment, then so be it

I stand by the idea of shin just being a completely mortal old man now

[slim girder]

My theory is that shin can only use golden gun with light. But he's no true solar hunter if that makes sense. And that he is also mortal and aging.

The last word specifically is the reason he can use golden gun.

[worldly river]

Honestly Prismatic is something I could actually see remaining a player-only thing, as far as lore is concerned

Maybe that's part of why the subs aren't named, cuz they're not really a discipline or anything, just something we specifically can do

[drifting hound]

Let's be honest this game has amazing lore but because of vaulted content it's ruined cuz u cannot replay Ur fav missions

[slim girder]

It's just red war up to forsaken. Yes that content has some good lore but thankfully most of it is still in the game and won't be going away.

You have the major plotline of the game from shadowkeep up to final shape and also the timeline to show you events in between

[blazing wasp]

Most, with a few exceptions, of the content removed kinda sucked

[drifting hound]

Yes but mostly few missions which most of em are kind of boring and out of context

[slim girder]

Such as?

[drifting hound]

For example the mission where ace dies

[slim girder]

You mean cayde?

[drifting hound]

Yeah sorry it's 4 am for me

[blazing wasp]

Tbf

Uh

The game doesn't really give context to that mission

Never properly did

Only did in lore

(lore still available)

[drifting hound]

Yeah it's like spedrun to make new lights get lost in lore

[blazing wasp]

This is a factoid predating d2

Let alone the vaulting

[drifting hound]

And the thing that if new light starts playing now he sees crow as a good guy and plays that mission without explaining what happened it's kinda devious

[slim girder]

Context was given in the mission. We were there to stop a prison break but yes, not much context was actually in the mission.
Also that's just how the game is unfortunately. People joining now are going to be confused.
The timeline feature does help a little but that's just small tidbits.

[blazing wasp]

People also did not understand the crow and uldren thing with context

[drifting hound]

Yeah true

[blazing wasp]

In fact the vaulting only served over time to reduce these people.

[slim girder]

Vaulting was bungie trying to set a point in the storyline.

Shadowkeep was going to be the new original start of the story

[drifting hound]

And made it worse ? I mean I get jt that if u have too much content game would be more unstable and laggy but why destroying planets like titan

[slim girder]

Not completely wiping previous lore out but still trying to put a coherent story in that people could play from start to finish

[drifting hound]

Still they made pretty good example in destiny 1 where u can replay everything

Why change something that isn't broken

[slim girder]

Game was different back then. And really it's a technical limitations. Back then we were supposed to be getting 4 destiny games across 10 years

Now it's bungie putting it all into 1

[blazing wasp]

Ok I'll explain this in more layman's terms using bungies own explanation

So, d2s engine
It's old
They gotta rework it cause it's old

When they do that they gotta recode everything

And I mean everything

[slim girder]

Also they have been listening and since witch queen you can replay missions.

[slim girder]

Tiger engine. Bungies baby.

[blazing wasp]

So, some stuff gotta go, or it'll take like a whole ass extra year for shit people won't really play that much

So they remove some stuff

[drifting hound]

Gotcha

[blazing wasp]

It sucks but

The alternative was worse especially business wise

[brittle dirge]

So I have a question

If Atraks had fallen listen to her that must mean she has her own group right? I doubt salvation communicates with her at all anymore judging by her state in VH

I personally think this could be a sivik/kell’s fury thing with a small group of fallen

[dim minnow]

the House Salvation in Vesper's Host are all assimilated minds

and the Corrupted Puppeteer is not Atraks anymore

[brittle dirge]

Well we don’t know what she is now (I love writing where we get answers)

[dim minnow]

the Corruption took over her remaining Exo Frame and assimilated the midns of the House Salvation defectors that were on Vesper Station

[brittle dirge]

I feel like bungie would make unique models for that though?

[dim minnow]

no, they wouldn't

[brittle dirge]

Not asking for anything much just like an effect around them maybe like wrathborn

[dim minnow]

Wrathborn is meant to be a little differtent lore wise

it's actually supposed to mutate them

the Corruption is just a mental thing

[brittle dirge]

I know but they were not making new models for every faction for like a season(s)

[dim minnow]

Bungie would only really make new enemy models for bosses when it comes to dungeons

[brittle dirge]

I’m pretty sure it affected Atraks more than just mentally

I know her damage is from DSC but her smile is new

Also why are her clones completely normal in design?

(Original, safeguard, bawark respectively)

[dim minnow]

the smile comes from the damage the body sustained

[jagged badge]

It’s clear that Vesper’s Host is setup for something more. There’s no issue with the writing

[dim minnow]

newly made copies

[slim girder]

Vespers is supposed to be our first hint at where the future is going

So we're not going to have answers

At least all of them

[brittle dirge]

And we killed Atraks

So like

What was the point

Oh we have a scary new corruption now for the fiftieth time

[dim minnow]

we stopped the Pupeteer from fiddling with the Anomaly

[brittle dirge]

Sure its still around but like

I bet it’ll just be nothing soon like SIVA, like egregore

[trim grotto]

You're kinda bumming the mood here

[jagged badge]

What’s the point of being a doomer about things we don’t know about?

That’s silly

[brittle dirge]

Because bungie has a formula for destiny with corruption based things

Most are gone little are here to stay

Taken are still around sure, this new scorn gimic is here sure

But why does it matter when you wasted a great character with so many possibilities as a segway into something else

[jagged badge]

[trim grotto]

Yeah I don't want to hear this to be frank

[jagged badge]

To be Frank? I thought you were Mael

[sleek matrix]

Dungeon generally are side content the story and lore is not the main focus

[brittle dirge]

Dead rising reference

[jagged badge]

I don’t know what that is

[trim grotto]

I wanted to be Frank for a minute

[sleek matrix]

But it could be a setup for something in the future

[jagged badge]

Okay I’ll let you

[brittle dirge]

Zombie game

Main character is frank

[trim grotto]

It definitely is

[brittle dirge]

So why make a dungeon lore heavy?

They didn’t have to but they did

[sleek matrix]

Because since duality dungeon have had better lore

Much better

For those that are interested

[brittle dirge]

Spire

[sleek matrix]

It aint that deep

[trim grotto]

Spire was a setup for Neomuna

[sleek matrix]

Yeah

[brittle dirge]

True

[sleek matrix]

Spire was us chasing leads to the witness

[jagged badge]

Vesper’s Host is the first dungeon key dungeon to not even really be tangentially related to the season/episode. I wonder if this trend continues next dungeon too

[sleek matrix]

Most likely a hive dungeon

[jagged badge]

A lot of people are theorising the next dungeon involves the Dreadnaught or something but it could also be something completely different to the episode’s theme and story

Because Vesper has fuck all to do with Revenant

[brittle dirge]

Ghosts straight up was (with Titan and hive theme) and so was duality

Oh I’m stupid

You said first

[trim grotto]

[brittle dirge]

Shows my reading comprehension

[sleek matrix]

Nothing has to come of it

It took years for nez to actually show up in game

And nez was hinted at for years

[jagged badge]

I mean…like twice

[sleek matrix]

Bungie likes to do stuff like this alot

Tease stuff

It also gives bungie options

Long as its the same writers

[jagged badge]

Nez was mentioned like twice in random lore tabs. The moment Bungie really intended to actually use him, they started actually teasing him in Haunted/Plunder

[dim minnow]

Egregore still had some relevance pop up after Presage

the Leviathan was overgrown with it

there was Egregore coral which served as something we needed to collect in Deep

[sleek matrix]

And the egregore has further implications

[brittle dirge]

Anyway points aside

We’ve never had a dungeon actually give us big story threads to a point of it mattering still greatly

Throne - curse gone jk it’s every week

Pit - nothing

Prophecy - planets gone oh nooooo

Duality - Calus mind stuff cool but not 100% needed

Spire - Neptune the place used for one expansion and veil shit

Ghosts - nothing. Oryx could’ve been revived. Okay?

Warlord - Hefnd dies. Okay?

Vesper - who needs answers? Atraks is back, that’s awesome. Oh, it’s not her it’s someone (or something) using her skin. Wait all of the fallen are mind controlled? There’s a Frankenstein servitor? What the hell is going on?

[sleek matrix]

More than we knew

[jagged badge]

[dim minnow]

someone hasn't been paying attention

[sleek matrix]

Prophecy hinted at alot

[dim minnow]

typical of a neophyte

[jagged badge]

I do not understand your issue with Vesper’s lore at all

[sleek matrix]

Ur wrong

[dim minnow]

ok let me break it down

[brittle dirge]

Atraks came back as not her just to die

[jagged badge]

So what?

[brittle dirge]

That’s my biggest gripe

[dim minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/breakdance-chineese-gif-26375280

ok now then,

[brittle dirge]

She’s like the best character in all of Destiny

Imo

[dim minnow]

she got fuck all screentime

[jagged badge]

So your gripe is purely born out of a hyper-attachment to one niche character?

[brittle dirge]

But she got a raid and a dungeon so who cares

[dim minnow]

Eramis only used her for propaganda for the younger audiences

I wish we got to see her pre-exo model more

[brittle dirge]

She isn’t niche

And it’s not a hyperattachement

My name isn’t worshipper of Atraks

[dim minnow]

I really loved how it was clearly Dusk-inspired

it made me think that Atraks was involved in House Dusk prior to working under Eramis

[brittle dirge]

Ah the wildcard my beloved

[jagged badge]

Uh huh

[dim minnow]

anyways, Atraks wasn't really the focus of Vesper's Host, it wasn't even her

[brittle dirge]

What is your point here then

[sleek matrix]

It was a clone

[brittle dirge]

We don’t know that

[dim minnow]

just a surviving copy that got corrupted

[sleek matrix]

And completely taken over by unknown corruption

[brittle dirge]

We just know it was something using her likeness

[sleek matrix]

It's not her

[brittle dirge]

She’s still out there I know she is

[sleek matrix]

Unlikely

[brittle dirge]

Bungie wouldn’t tease her return so much if she didn’t serve a bigger purpose

[jagged badge]

The tease of Atraks’ was that there were theories that a clone escaped or the real Atraks escaped and we had actually killed a clone

[dim minnow]

Shattered Throne and Pit of Heresy canonically repeat every three weeks and every week respectively

[jagged badge]

Although the latter potentially undermines the entire scanner mechanic

[brittle dirge]

Exactly my point

It’s unimportant

[dim minnow]

though we never really got the Zulmak plotline fixed yet, it could be relevant in Heresy

[sleek matrix]

But if we scan the right one isn't that hurting the real one

[jagged badge]

“So much” they teased it once

[dim minnow]

and the curse plot line is ever present in the Dreaming City

[jagged badge]

Then she showed up in Vesper’s

[brittle dirge]

And she got two teases in that one

[brittle dirge]

Again not her

[jagged badge]

Jesus lmao

This is such insane cope

[lost abyss]

Sorry Mara, but we need a reason to patrol the Dreaming City.

[dim minnow]

Prophecy gives a lot of foreshadowing for not just the missing destinations, but also on Light and Dark

[brittle dirge]

Eris look at my chat history in this channel

Most of the things I talk about are either SIVA (aksis) or Atraks

I have favorites and it’s obvious

[jagged badge]

Cool

[ember storm]

Crab apples

[sleek matrix]

I feel like siva stuff is over rated

[brittle dirge]

I get that

[sleek matrix]

Ppl are blinded by the past too much

[brittle dirge]

I do like aksis though

[sleek matrix]

I hope in the next saga we get new storylines

[brittle dirge]

Asthetic is great

[trim grotto]

[lost abyss]

Seever

[dim minnow]

Duality gave us a good amount of background on not only Calus' psyche, but also what he and the Witness desire

Spire had us stop a three pronged attack by the Vex who were sent by the Witness and it had foreshadowing for Neptune

Ghosts tells us that Oryx's body itself is still alive and the Vanguard somehow thought it would be a good idea to take it to the City for study

Warlord's Ruin was about foreshadowing Fikrul's return since some of the Scorn in the dungeon were sent by him and were why we were led to the castle in the first place

Vesper's Host - Do the extra stuff and find out

[ember storm]

Cope and seeva

[lost abyss]

Seeving and malding rn

[dim minnow]

like we don't have answers yet, but there is still a lot of context we can obtain

Vesper's Host has a lot of stuff going on lore-wise

[sleek matrix]

[dim minnow]

while there are still mysteries, I'm sure we will get answers in Frontiers

[jagged badge]

And yeah it’s far too early to declare whether Vesper’s is inconsequential to the story/lore or not

[sleek matrix]

Destiny needs mysteries

That's what been lacking

[jagged badge]

But even now it seems way bigger of a setup than any dungeon before it

[sleek matrix]

Yes until apollo

[jagged badge]

To suggest otherwise feels blatantly just silly imo

[dim minnow]

Dungeons are used mainly as setup for future plot lines now so they do have some importance

also, some of these dungeons would have bad things happen if we didn't do them

like Spire

[brittle dirge]

Atraks is the best character

[jagged badge]

We get it dude

[sleek matrix]

My best character is rulk

[brittle dirge]

We basically already lost at the point of spire

The vex got they want

We just stopped them from blowing it up too

[sleek matrix]

I love how he didn't really give a fuck about us

Chad mindset

[brittle dirge]

Until it was too late that is

Bozo

Absolute goober

He should’ve actually tried and wiped the floor with us

[sleek matrix]

Sure but u know they weaken em for gameplay

[dim minnow]

not really, the Witnes still did not know the Veil's location

and we stopped the Vex from locking down Rasputin's subminds

[sleek matrix]

Rulk was the strongest character we faced until the witness

[brittle dirge]

I think you mean Atraks

Okay I’ll stop

[sleek matrix]

Witness found out when he touched the traveler iirc

[brittle dirge]

True

[dim minnow]

yeah, but I'm tlking about Spire of the Watcher

basically I'm saying that the Vex did not win at all in Spire

[brittle dirge]

The vex almost never win

They mostly are pawns

[sleek matrix]

They cant simulate paracasuality

But that could change

[jagged badge]

Osiris certainly seems to think so

[brittle dirge]

That line got me so hyped

Vex lightbearer is so cool

[jagged badge]

There’s new lore from the new Grimoire book with him urging Ikora to have the Vanguard consider the Vex a priority threat for that reason

[sleek matrix]

Interesting

[brittle dirge]

Osiris has been on a hot streak with being right recently though

[lost abyss]

Osiris was the original harbinger for the Vex threat, yeah. It's what got him a crowd for prophecies, leading to him being exiled.

[jagged badge]

Time is inevitably limited, until the Vex in their infinite adaptability learn how Light and Darkness both may be turned to their advantage.```

Just an excerpt of it

[sleek matrix]

Sounds

[brittle dirge]

You thought hive lightbearers were bad? Heh

Just you wait till we have vex

We already had cabal (a singular one but still)

And soon we’ll have fallen with house of light

I bet

Or uh… Atraks…

[errant tapir]

Day 16 of asking fun facts lore

[sleek matrix]

???

[jagged badge]

A Ghost played us and a Guardian played our Ghost in a play once

[trim grotto]

Say play again

[jagged badge]

Play again

[trim grotto]

You win

[jagged badge]

What do I win

[trim grotto]

A high five!
But you have to come to Australia to claim it

[jagged badge]

Fuck

Why don’t you come back here to do it

[errant tapir]

Wait what

Is that a reference?

[trim grotto]

No. I live in Australia and she lives in England.

But I used to live in England.

[jagged badge]

EN-GUH-LUUUND

[trim grotto]

That phrase is seared into my brain

[jagged badge]

Heheh

[errant tapir]

Oh so you guys have met each other?

[jagged badge]

Nah I was one year off from that

[errant tapir]

Hm? Meaning?

You are one year late to meeting him?

[brittle dirge]

Destiny is supposed to be a bad future, despite the fact that the Burning of London happened, thus saying the opposite

Inspired by this

[trim grotto]

Yeah
Had a few Cryptarchy meet ups but I went the year before
Eris went the year after

[willow dagger]

Mael lore

[frigid sparrow]

what's the deal with shadow thrall? any reason why they're so different from taken thrall when.. well, they're still taken thrall?

[slim girder]

Because they're not actually thrall that have been taken in the conventional way. It's more like a clone or as the name suggests shadow of a thrall.

Notice how shadow thrall also don't zip around like regular taken thrall. It's just a copy of a regular thrall that'll run at its target

[trim grotto]

A wild Lore Kyra appeared

[flat jolt]

Now that witness is down, our next major enemy is the vex right?

[brittle dirge]

Technically it’s the scorn and fikrul rn

They’re of “priority” so to say

The vex are still an issue though but with Maya’s withdrawal we can focus on them less

[flat jolt]

So once we cleared the root of that issue, scorns will be extinct?

[brittle dirge]

Fikrul is canonically immortal

As long as he is alive, scorn will live

And fikrul doesn’t make every single scorn it’s more of a dark ether thing where whoever uses it to corrupt fallen can do so

Someone could easily take over in the case of his death

[flat jolt]

I mean the takens are dealt with, we got the cabal on our side as with the lucent hive, fallens are our allies or at least one major house, that leaves the vex i think?

So we gotta just dismantle that dark ether thing and fikrul will be the last of his kind

[jagged badge]

We don’t have the Lucent Hive on our side

[brittle dirge]

We have allies who are lucent hive but we still have hive that are very much against us

[jagged badge]

With the Cabal, we have Caiatl’s forces on our side but are still fighting Red Legion leftovers, mercenaries and ofc Shadow Legion

[jagged badge]

Ally*

Luzaku is the only Lucent Hive we can call an ally

[flat jolt]

Well now that the bbeg is down, guardians can start their ethnic cleansing ig

[jagged badge]

The what

[brittle dirge]

Finch and luzaku

[jagged badge]

I wouldn’t count Fynch

[flat jolt]

Ya thats a hive ghost, more machine than hive

[jagged badge]

He’s not a part of that faction, he defected

[brittle dirge]

I mean he killed his guardian so yeah

[jagged badge]

And Savathûn knows his ass is/was a spy considering she needed him to feed us information for her plan

[flat jolt]

Where is sava now?

[jagged badge]

[flat jolt]

And whats gonna happen to that whale in titan?

[jagged badge]

She’s chilling

[brittle dirge]

Also about that

You can’t just “dismantle” dark ether

It’s an element

[flat jolt]

The 3th darkness subclass hint

[slim girder]

No

[brittle dirge]

If dark ether was actually a subclass it would not do what it does to the scorn to us

Saying we don’t need ether to live, fallen do

It’d be like zombified water or air

[flat jolt]

Can sava make takens?

[slim girder]

No

[flat jolt]

Thats one less problem to deal with

[jagged badge]

Savathûn only controlled Taken back when she had Quria in her control

[brittle dirge]

She cannot

She formerly had a taken hydra named Quira who controlled taken

[jagged badge]

But we destroyed Quria

[brittle dirge]

You do realize that there’s still another echo floating around right

And it can be assumed Xivu will obtain it as she is now mortal so power would be what she’s after

We have more threats to face since the witness is still screwing us over even after its death

[flat jolt]

Ya guess vex will be the next bbeg, the cabal, hive, fallen just have their own civil war going out but no big issue, nothing serious that some warlock like toland or osiris has to step it to investigate.

[jagged badge]

Wtf is “bbeg”

[flat jolt]

Ya xivu is still a thorn but we have our own hive god of vengeance so thats okay

[jagged badge]

We don’t

[flat jolt]

Big bad evil god, bad guy in dnd terms

The ultimate villain

[jagged badge]

Eris doesn’t have that power anymore

It was used up/she gave it up when she mortalised Xivu

[flat jolt]

We can collect tithes to empower her again right?

[jagged badge]

She has no intention of doing that

[brittle dirge]

Vex most likely

Osiris’ report on vex should be a priority mentions vex being potentially capable of understanding paracasuality (light and dark)

[brittle dirge]

That process was an incredibly risky one and a last ditch effort when we were desperate

We are more stable now, and we will not repeat it

[jagged badge]

Okay no here it is

I looked up the dialogue from the story to remind myself how it worked

In choosing to cast a spell that removed Xivu from her Throne instead of choosing conflict as the Sword Logic demands, Eris broke her ritual. It drained all the tithed power

So the idea is that because she rejected the Sword Logic like that, she cannot do that ritual again

[brittle dirge]

We also have no reason to do it again

[flat jolt]

Then again sword logic being one of the minor paths of darkness its also possible xivu will learn darker power to get stronger

[jagged badge]

Xivu’s plenty strong already

She’s just mortal

If we attacked her she’d still slaughter us

[flat jolt]

True, but we took down the witness

[brittle dirge]

Though she does admire us

[jagged badge]

That doesn’t mean anything here

[brittle dirge]

Our bloodshed

[flat jolt]

The guardian is now mega strong with prismatic powers

[jagged badge]

That’s not how it works

We don’t generally defeat our enemies by merely triumphing over them in raw power like it’s a game of Top Trumps

[jagged badge]

We used the direct power of the Traveler’s Light and the fact the Witness’ aspects of itself were actively rejecting it and seeking out to undo and dismantle it from within

We didn’t beat it in a 1v1 with our own strength

[brittle dirge]

We mostly win by technicalities or by the skin of our teeth

We use underhanded tactics

Straight up every raid and dungeon mechanic is us using the defenses against them

We don’t win by power

[jagged badge]

With Xivu Arath, she is God of War. She gains power from war and conflict. To fight her is to empower her

We wouldn’t win

[flat jolt]

Man, sometimes i wish the guardian has sword logic.

[jagged badge]

Unless we find a way around that

[brittle dirge]

Mortal or not, she’s very strong

[jagged badge]

That would not help either

Which is expressly why Eris didn’t choose to use her power to fight Xivu

[brittle dirge]

We tried something similar with bomb logic

It did not work

[jagged badge]

Eris Morn literally surpassed pre-exorcism Savathûn in strength when she challenged Xivu, but she knew she couldn’t fight Xivu, so she chose to enact the spell that banished her from her Throne World instead

[brittle dirge]

Even though bomb logic was more so the antithesis of sword logic

[flat jolt]

Oryx is gone for real right? Cuz if sava can come back and xivu immune to combat and bomb logic idk if we can deal with all three at once

[brittle dirge]

Bomb logic isn’t magic

Like sword logic

[jagged badge]

Bomb Logic isn’t a power, it’s just the metaphor for an ideology

Unlike Sword Logic which is both an ideology and is literally given paracausal power through the worms

[brittle dirge]

As for your actual question

Oryx isn’t dead but rather brain dead and currently in vanguard custody

[flat jolt]

I foresee it, a final fight with the entirety of the hive.

[brittle dirge]

His body remains

[flat jolt]

If fallen can resurrect into scorns, im sure sava will be plotting the same for her sibling

[brittle dirge]

Yeah well oryx’s revival went swimmingly

I highly doubt any of that will actually work because we’ll be there

Besides fallen and scorn resurrection vs hive resurrection is entirely different

[jagged badge]

She was plotting the same, and we thwarted it

Have you played Ghosts of the Deep?

[flat jolt]

Looks like there’s enough material for destiny to continue another decade. Its nice that the story doesn’t end so soon.

[flat jolt]

I dont think so

[brittle dirge]

As I mentioned

We straight up stopped oryx’s revival in that dungeon

[trim grotto]

One could argue it may not have worked at all anyway, but that's a tangent.

[brittle dirge]

I mean they mention that we have no clue if it would’ve worked at all

[jagged badge]

We’re instructed to find out what the Lucent Hive are doing on Titan and eventually find that Oryx’s body/corpse made it all the way to Titan’s seabed. The Lucent Hive were attempting to combine Ghosts with necromancy to bring back Oryx

We crushed the Ghost and killed the necromancer, and the Hidden secured Oryx’s body

[brittle dirge]

Which begs the question why we didn’t do that sooner after his death in king’s fall

[jagged badge]

We didn’t know where his body went

Space is big

[flat jolt]

Did the whale help since its in titans sea?

[brittle dirge]

I’m also noticing now that we wouldn’t be able to bypass the methane anyway

[lament pivot]

Oryx also hates necromancy as did most hive

So I doubt he'd be happy about being brought back

[trim grotto]

Resurrection wasn't possible at the time
He was killed in his Throne World and to our understanding - even the Hive's understanding at the time - it wasn't possible

So I'm not surprised

[flat jolt]

Ya i read somewhere about sword logic not allowing resurrection

[brittle dirge]

I mean when you have one rule in your religion and you break it

[flat jolt]

Defeats the purpose

[trim grotto]

Exactly yeah

[brittle dirge]

I still think we should be securing bodies

This is exactly how stuff like oryx and skolas happen

[jagged badge]

Again

We did not know where Oryx’s body had gone

[brittle dirge]

We knew where skolas’ was though

And the awoken put him in a freezer

[lament pivot]

And taniks

Wait what skolas

Why

Why bungie why

[jagged badge]

And we had 0 reason to expect that something like the Scorn would ever be a thing

[flat jolt]

Idk about this latest episode about fikrul but was he a major threat before he turned to scorn?

[jagged badge]

In a prison that was not intended to be left in ruins

[trim grotto]

It was in fact actually secured

It just became unsecured

[trim grotto]

Not exactly major

Well

[brittle dirge]

Skolas, Kell of kells

Brought back in this current season after fikrul revived him

[lament pivot]

Man bungie is too obsessed with bringing back old characters

It was funny with taniks

[trim grotto]

He's been making Scorn since Forsaken to be clear

[brittle dirge]

They’ve been doing this for years

Did you forget kelgaroth?

[trim grotto]

It's just a PoE reference. He's one of the random bosses there.

[lament pivot]

Nah I remember him

[trim grotto]

Nothing story relevant

[brittle dirge]

I can’t tell if you’re joking

[lament pivot]

I'm gonna be annoyed if any raid bosses come back man

[trim grotto]

And you never will

[brittle dirge]

this has already happened

[lament pivot]

Root of nightmares is cool though

[flat jolt]

6 major factions of enemies. And here I thought the vanguard was willing to destroy all enemies of the last city. And TIL fikrul was active since forsaken

[lament pivot]

I mean any others

[jagged badge]

Taniks, Fanatic’s Chosen

[trim grotto]

He was Uldren's right hand and the origin of the Scorn

[lament pivot]

Taniks, avatar of the winnoer

Can't spell man

[jagged badge]

Taniks, Avatar?

[trim grotto]

M-a-n
You're welcome

[brittle dirge]

riven was back for a season

Atraks. Just Atraks.

I highly suspect aksis or Vosik will have a role in this season since fikrul seems to be going after really strong fallen

[jagged badge]

Eh

[brittle dirge]

Aksis was the strongest fallen before Atraks

[lament pivot]

Bungie losing the make new minor raid boss's challenge

[brittle dirge]

Also how could I forget?! Val’ Ca’uor

[flat jolt]

Did the fallen have access to light when the traveller was with them?

[blazing wasp]

not like guardians

[trim grotto]

Riven was still dead and her spirit had lingered post campaign as it was
She already spoke to us in Shattered Throne

[lament pivot]

They didn't have ghosts

[brittle dirge]

He came back in deep as a very disappointing enemy

[blazing wasp]

guardians are the first to be blessed this way

[flat jolt]

So no solar arc powers, just technologically blessed then

[jagged badge]

Humanity didn’t get Lightbearers until after our Collapse

It was a last resort move by the Traveler

[blazing wasp]

no solar arc and void light but obviously regular solar arc and void

[jagged badge]

A stand she chose to take, as far as we understand

[blazing wasp]

because... those are not paracausal elements

[lament pivot]

I gotta go but before I do consider this

Taniks = the undying mind

[flat jolt]

I can understand using regular natural phenomenon like solar and arc but man, harnessing natural void is unthinkable

[brittle dirge]

Taniks, the perfected scarred scorned nightmare abomination reborn

[blazing wasp]

With sufficient technological advancement, i mean, maybe its thinkable.

every enemy species we fight does it

[lament pivot]

Taken by war

[brittle dirge]

New boss just dropped

[lament pivot]

Plus with a exo number

[brittle dirge]

No taken by king

[flat jolt]

You kinda right. And I thought the darkness thought them.

[brittle dirge]

Not all enemies are in line with the darkness

[blazing wasp]

Void arc and solar are not inherintly related to the light

its just that void arc and solar are like, real tangible thingabobs, thats why we have solar light but not solar dark

Stasis, by comparison, can be associative with "willpower" and "control"

not "nuclear fusion"

[lament pivot]

Bungie when nuclear fusion subclass

[flat jolt]

The physical: light
The mental: dark

[blazing wasp]

more or less, yes

[trim grotto]

Alright I actually have some free time
15 minutes but still

[blazing wasp]

ah, mael will be able to answer this much better

[trim grotto]

Void can be considered a few different things depending on which part of it you're harnessing. Gravity has power. Even a vacuum has power.

[flat jolt]

So the invisibility of fallen tech is not void powered?

[trim grotto]

Well, it isn't Void Light, at any rate. We don't know a great deal about the intricacies of the technology though.

Servitors use Void energy for example however, so it is possible that tech uses it too.

[blazing wasp]

"void invisibility" as im sure you're thinking about is purple, fallen invisibility is blue, but that may be unrelated.

[flat jolt]

Hmm, i can’t remember if arclocks or voidlocks had blinks first then the hunters learned from them, could it mean arclocks could learn invisibility from void hunters/fallen tech?

[trim grotto]

Not from tech. Bladedancers could go invisible though, which was the old Arc subclass of D1 Hunters. So it's plausible.

[flat jolt]

I think they need it, arc is so soft and only has blind to help defensively.

Btw, in lore does the big 3 vanguard leaders has a preferred subclass? I know osiris and zavala are stuck with stasis and strand since no ghost but what about before?

Only seen clips of cayde using solar

[trim grotto]

Zavala was known to use Void and Arc. Ikora is famous for her Void strength. Cayde, as you have noticed, preferred Solar.

Crow... mostly Solar, off the top of my head.

[lament pivot]

Are subclasses even a thing in lore

Or is it just a gameplay thing

[trim grotto]

Yes, they are.

Subclasses are effectively methods of learning and using Light. Bladedancers and Arcstriders are both canon, despite the fact that we don't practice the Bladedancer technique in D2.

Same with Sunsingers from D1 compared to Dawnblades

[flat jolt]

Praxic Fire 🔥

[jagged badge]

We do see him do a Void invis instead of transmatting. Weirdly Cayde did that too in Final Shape though

[trim grotto]

Did he? I saw Crow do it, but not Cayde-6.

[jagged badge]

https://youtu.be/dgSQGY9vXx4?si=D1zG0vbMGtlCaNjO

3:13

[trim grotto]

I will refuse to watch this and remain blissful in my ignorance

Also because my break is over and I have to go back to work

[jagged badge]

[flat jolt]

Maybe Cayde uses solar bcuz Sundance

[jagged badge]

We know Cayde’s main thing is being a Gunslinger

I’m pointing out the weird fact that he has a Void invisibility effect while being Lightless

[flat jolt]

Hey you’re right. I forgot he had no ghost

Another Hunter that accesses light powers with no ghost

Does every major character has an exotic? I know osiris is the only one with multiple.

[jagged badge]

People say he has multiple but eh

But no, to answer your question

Technically Cayde has been affiliated with Lucky Pants but he visibly doesn’t wear them at all in game

Zavala and Ikora don’t have exotics on

[blazing wasp]

worth noting too that its not confirmed that the exotics effect ingame works in lore.

felwinter likely did not have magical gloves on that made his punches stronger if he punches someone to death

[jagged badge]

Some do

Like Frostees

[blazing wasp]

oh yeah some yea

[flat jolt]

I think exotics in game arent like in lore, but instead just named items like hos14, or eris lucky raspberry.

But its unique named items

Osiris has starfires iconic triangle pattern, famous eyes of mercury sunbracer and some say he wears dawn chorus. Cant see the legs much

[blazing wasp]

some have in-lore effects, some

[jagged badge]

People are bullshitting/speculating. Sunbracers is the only exotic that’s apparent

[blazing wasp]

its because osiris' helmet looks similar to a dawn chorus ornament

but yea thats a stretch.

the ornament is probably based on osiris' helmet rather than osirsi having a dawn chorus ornament for some reason.

[jagged badge]

Considering Osiris was designed years before Dawn Chorus existed and then it’s even further between the ornament being a rhing

[slim girder]

Eris doesn't wear lucky raspberry.

Shiro 4 does

[jagged badge]

Eris is confirmed to wear Lucky Raspberry. A unique ornament of it ofc but nonetheless, it is Lucky Raspberry

Just like Osiris has a unique ornament of Sunbracers really

Her use of that exotic tracks with the fact she was a Bladedancer

[slim girder]

Fr? I know her chest plate looks similar but didn't think it meant anything

[flat jolt]

Ooo you’re right.

I think one wears base exotic and another the ornament

Kinda makes sense when sunbracer was made by a titan but osiris wears the ornament

[steady phoenix]

so can someone give me lore rundown on new player experience how do i know cayde if this ghost brought me back to life from the dead?

like he said"I brought you back" so how long have i been dead

[trim grotto]

Technically as a new player, you don't
The idea is that your character knew him before he died in Forsaken's campaign, which is why that mission is available for you in the Timeline system

You can go do that whenever you wish

[steady phoenix]

so as a new player how long have i been dead?

like i just was randomly brought back

i thought if ur ghost died u cant come back

[trim grotto]

A new player is freshly Risen. You might have been dead since before the Golden Age.

Centuries

Before Ghosts even existed

There's a slight breakaway for new players where the campaigns may assume you've been around longer than you actually have been

Side effect of Destiny being 10 years old

[flat jolt]

Adding on you get loots from doing timeline missions the first time, free guns.

[ember storm]

Canonically speaking your character is the same one from D1, there’s no “alternate timeline” where the young wolf didn’t exist

[brittle dirge]

Destiny lore is really confusing when it comes to us

We’re both THE GUARDIAN but also not and just a guardian

[ember storm]

We are and always have been

[brittle dirge]

It depends on the context because technically every person playing is The Guardian but that also puts raids into question

[ember storm]

There’s just a dialogue flag with non-veteran characters that will do veteran and new light dialogue respectively

[brittle dirge]

I’m well aware

[ember storm]

It doesn’t matter whether or not you personally did it, The Guardian did

Like Clovis has a dialogue difference of whether or not “you” or “your people” showed up and ruined the DSC

[brittle dirge]

“Alas I have no riches in store for you today…” is something I still quote

[ember storm]

Canonically it is you, the Young Wolf, but people who didn’t personally do the raid would get confused

Literally the only difference is that other guardians you play with are not main characters on their own

[brittle dirge]

And yet they are in their own campaigns and story experiences which creates confusion

[ember storm]

They’re just nameless peers of similar level, vanguard wouldn’t summon 5 vets and one Randy to kill Oryx

[ember storm]

They’re not

Canonically it’s literally just you

[brittle dirge]

I know lore and gameplay must be separate

[ember storm]

It’s not meant to be complicated

There is literally nothing that suggests they have their own stories

They’re just nameless other guardians who don’t serve a plot purpose

[brittle dirge]

When they play through the gameplay of stories they are the guardian as well

Every player is the guardian

[ember storm]

Not in terms of the narrative

You’re talking in a meta sense

In the actual story they literally do not exist

[brittle dirge]

I know

[ember storm]

So what is it that you’re trying to clarify

There’s nothing more to it than that

[brittle dirge]

Same way technically only 6 people have experienced the raids

[ember storm]

Nothing says that

[brittle dirge]

(Se race reference?)

[ember storm]

Literally only Young Wolf canonically does each one

[brittle dirge]

Salvation’s edge

[flat jolt]

He solo flawless raids what a chad

[ember storm]

Nah we’re not esoterrick

[brittle dirge]

Salvation’s edge is canonically a different team

[ember storm]

I plan on having a faithful marriage if I ever get one

[brittle dirge]

Also if that raid narrative is true why do the raid bosses refer to us as we actually are? Multiple people

[ember storm]

I literally do not know what you mean by that

Yes there is in fact a fireteam of 6 each time

Nothing is confirmed about the identities of the other 5

Young Wolf is always there, that’s the only thing that matters

[brittle dirge]

Again salvation’s edge

[ember storm]

Would you elaborate at all or am I supposed to just guess what you mean

[brittle dirge]

What would you like me to explain

Raid bosses in dialogue use multiple tense but you stated the young wolf does it all alone

[brittle dirge]

^

“Only” implies alone

One person

[ember storm]

You definitely know that’s not what I meant

[brittle dirge]

Take Rhulk, “welcome, children of light.” It’s not child of light

[ember storm]

Nothing confirms that it’s the same team of six for every raid

[brittle dirge]

I never said that

[ember storm]

Only Young Wolf is the constant

So what are you saying???

[flat jolt]

Destiny trailers used to have two separate fireteams fight together, but then they or one team at least got wrecked by the witness. I used to think they joined the young wolf in raids or the young wolf was one of them

[ember storm]

I never said raids are done solo

Literally what are you trying to argue here

[brittle dirge]

I thought you did

I misinterpreted

[ember storm]

[flat jolt]

Only esoteric can solo raids

Madlad

[ember storm]

He also soloed his marriage

[brittle dirge]

There are multiple people who have solo’d raids

[ember storm]

Pretty sure everyone and their grandma did solo Ron when it was possible

[brittle dirge]

Esoteric was in fact not the first to beat current DSC solo

[flat jolt]

I think i have to get on this bandwagon.

[brittle dirge]

He beat it when it first came out and was bugged though

[brittle dirge]

The main point I’m getting at is

In gameplay if everybody is considered young wolf in their own experiences in the story then why the fuck would they do that

[ember storm]

Because it’s a video game

There is no greater meaning to it at all

[brittle dirge]

In the narrative, no, sure

But in actual meta purposes it’s confusing

[ember storm]

To the story others players are just “other guardians”

They’re not supposed to share your feats

When you play online pokemon you just ignore that everyone has the same arceus

[flat jolt]

I think the best answer is, alternative vex simulations that converges when we do raids

[brittle dirge]

Yeah but pokemon isn’t as lore centered as this game

Saying the fact they change it every generation or so