📚lore-discussion

[ember storm]

Lots of people tried to flee and escape

[errant tapir]

Wdym by this???

Neptune is a secret planet

[dim minnow]

Soteria isn't a sumbind

[dim minnow]

more accurately, Vex used simulation fuckery to hide Neomuna

essentially making it very difficult to find

[ember storm]

Neptune has always just been there

The city of Neomuna was hidden

[errant tapir]

Is this your voice???

[ember storm]

Even after Osiris was clued in to the existence of the veil on Neptune, Ikora sent her spies to go looking for it

[dim minnow]

yeah, he's literally Byf

[ember storm]

And they didn’t find anything

[errant tapir]

GASP

[ember storm]

It took the Witness literally prying open the traveler’s mind to find the city

[errant tapir]

Your voice is soothing

A calm ocean

[ember storm]

Tell us about your cool discord server byf

[dim minnow]

maybe leave an invite link

probably about time I join it

[ember storm]

[trim grotto]

[dim minnow]

I want to buy up my "Fikrul's Echo is the Eliksni Echo" stocks before Bungie reveals it

if the price skyrockets, I'm buying myself a Ketch

if they plummet, I'm jumping into the Hellmouth

[errant tapir]

I barely understand what u are saying

But it's funny I just know hellmouth part

Who is this "The Gardener"?

Is it the traveller?

[trim grotto]

Yes. There's more to it though, that begins to delve into... a bit of a contentious topic.

[iron mortar]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Witness

Witness being 1-B is insane

At most he is 2-C,

[dim minnow]

1-B?

[iron mortar]

Hyperversal

[dim minnow]

Hyperversal?

[iron mortar]

Meaning with the final shape he can destroy multiple multiverses

[dim minnow]

Multiverses?

[lost abyss]

Oh, no powerscaling

[dim minnow]

powerscaling?

[iron mortar]

Multiverses*, high complex multiverses with sub dimensions and everything

[dim minnow]

everything?

[iron mortar]

LoL

[dim minnow]

LoL?

[iron mortar]

Yeah power scaling makes no sense

[trim grotto]

[dim minnow]

sense?

[lost abyss]

Power scaling icky

[dim minnow]

icky?

[iron mortar]

I am right, the destiny universe shouldn't be much bigger than our own

[dim minnow]

our?

[iron mortar]

Saying he is above multiverses is crazy

[dim minnow]

he?

[trim grotto]

That is not why I emoted

[lost abyss]

I think something broke Dova

[iron mortar]

Oh you don't like power scaling

[trim grotto]

It's usually nonsense

[covert stone]

We're here for lore, not diminiutively quantifying power with nonsense charts and numbers

[lost abyss]

It's funny that this topic was addressed in the Witch Queen CE

Ikora is immensely displeased

[covert stone]

A gestalt entity borne of the collective agony of a civilization that can decide the entire universe's fate is quite powerful. How powerful? We don't really care, we have the power of friendship

[iron mortar]

Usually yeah, but it is very fun to see who would win in a really awesome fight between verses, for example imagine a fight between oryx and knull(god of symbiotes) both can take you with the darkness

[trim grotto]

Fair, but it isn't my thing.

[covert stone]

I just think they'd get along and have a nice cup of tea while talking about the races they've genocided

[lost abyss]

Stuff like this is usually hugely circumstantial, especially with Destiny.

[lost abyss]

wait I have an image for this

[covert stone]

Especially because The Guardian quite literally has main character syndrome

[dim minnow]

Dova?

[covert stone]

There are characters literally more powerful, we just get lucky and persevere

[iron mortar]

Legit yeah

[dim minnow]

I think I might know what image inspired this

uh- I mean verses?

[covert stone]

Do you think there's some sort of Traveler version of the Bible

[dim minnow]

like?

[covert stone]

Say how the The Old Testament basically catalogues the creation of the universe and life; like that but with how Guardians were created from the Traveler

[dim minnow]

Unveiling is the closest we got

highly allegorical and everyone questions its validity, but I think it has a great deal of truth to it

almost like...

[covert stone]

Yeah like the Bible

[lost abyss]

I had to dig into the hellmouth to find this

[covert stone]

He is LOUNGING

What a life

[dim minnow]

reminds me of the series of images where it's a Destiny character staring at a computer screen and then towards the viewer

and Eris' has her using her Rock instead of a computer

[lost abyss]

lmao

I haven't seen that one but it sounds amazing

[dim minnow]

I know I saw one with Oryx, but I can't find it

[lost abyss]

lmfao why does Ana look like she's about to commit a murder

[dim minnow]

found some other ones with Asher Mir, a Dreg, and Cayde

but I can't get them because they're on some png website

[lost abyss]

I'm going to plunder the ones you shared

[slim girder]

About this.
Something I think might be related to the creation of the universe or even the traveler is the dreams of alpha lupi https://youtu.be/Ds6d822Rb8I?feature=shared

It's one bit of lore that I've always been curious about but so far it's looking like bungie will never talk about it. Just a vague set of paragraphs.

Think I also saw a Reddit thread suggesting this was actually talking about the nine.

Maybe some day bungie might decide to implement it somewhere. Like if this is a transmission then where did it come from.

[ruby pivot]

hmmm i wonder if exo's can have an upgradable parts where they can turn their hands into weapons i mean they are inspired by vex and vex have cannon hands

https://tenor.com/view/lockdown-gif-21201946

would be great if exo's can do that

but yeah human mind something something go crazy

[slim girder]

They can upgrade themselves. Cayde even joked about getting a rocket launcher arm during the red war when his arm was shot off.
Elsie was said to have more "top of the line" frame by another person who didn't like the proportions of her own exo body

[trim grotto]

Elsie's body was produced that way, however.

[slim girder]

True but it still implies that some exos are of different quality and some might have more bells and whistles than others

[trim grotto]

In this case, her body matched the proportions of her human body.

Banshee's body, however, was significantly improved over the standard Exo body.

[slim girder]

Wonder how the conversion went with cayde. Considering he's been reset 6 times.

Wait

Did Elsie have any resets?

[ruby pivot]

she doesnt seem to have any number so no

[slim girder]

She doesn't have the usual exo name

[ruby pivot]

and she remembers everything

but if you meant universal resets probably countless

[trim grotto]

She was killed by Clovis Bray the First, so strictly speaking, she's be considered Elsie-2 at the minimum.

[ruby pivot]

was it mentioned in the lore on how many attempts she made

[trim grotto]

Of timeline jumps? She literally cannot remember. The jumps affect her memory.

[ruby pivot]

ye

[lost abyss]

Exos can't have too many altered features. They lose their mind to insanity if their frame is too different from their human form. Inducing Dissociative Exomind Rejecting (DER)
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/test-no-167-bonus-appendages#book-bray-lab-records-confidential

[C.B.] I know success is possible. It's been shown to me.

[D.C.] Yes, you mentioned the vision previously, sir. We believe that the transition was too jarring. This time, we've fabricated some memories within the patient. This should lead them to believe that the extra arms are in fact part of who they are.

[C.B.] Good. I don't want to have to watch another catastrophically expensive Exo tear itself to pieces again.

[D.C.] //Let's bring the patient online please.// We've already completed the initial awakening seminar, so as not to waste your time.

[C.B.] Did they see the tower?

[D.C.] They did, sir. //How are you feeling?//

[P103] Not great… Where am I?

[D.C.] //Please stand and explore the full range of your mobility.//

[P103] What do you want me to do?

[D.C.] //Raise your arms.// All four seem functional.

[C.B.] Don't celebrate yet. They seem to be moving in tandem. Can they move each one independently?

[D.C.] //Please move each arm. Individually.//

[P103] I… can't. I can't. I can't. What's— not mine. What's. Get them off! Off! (screaming)

[C.B.] It would appear they're on the verge of a psychotic break.

(metal tearing) (screaming)

[C.B.] Dr. Chambers, next time you run this test, I want you in the room with the patient. You understand?

[D.C.] …Yes, sir.```

[slim girder]

I'm talking just as an exo if she's been reset like an exo would normally be. Not the time jumps

[ruby pivot]

if thats the case my hunter exo would like to have spiked or electromagnetic legs or a grapple arm

hmmm wait does the exo's have nanites to repair themselves or the look for parts

exo guardians^

[slim girder]

Most likely parts. I believe there's lore from a ghost explaining this

Cayde after having his arm blown off probably just had someone like banshee repair it

[ruby pivot]

huh i guess a self repairing upgrade module would be great for an exo ngl

probably just need materials to do the repair

[lost abyss]

This was a test Clovis ran adding extra limbs to an Exo's frame, which ended with a visceral display of DER.

[slim girder]

Yeah it's weird. A ghost has the "blueprint" to bring someone back to life even if the body is lost but they couldn't do something say if a guardian lost a limb

[lost abyss]

So, something like a cannon for an arm likely wouldn't be possible without triggering DER.

[ruby pivot]

damn so my exo cant be megaman

[lost abyss]

The technology for an Exo repair might be outside of the City's capabilities, since frames would be Golden Age tech. If he needed to he could die, and have Sundance ressurect him with his arm, since this is possible for Lightbearers.

[slim girder]

No you can't modify exos to that extent. Minor things I'm sure but in general you're not turning an exo into a Terminator

[slim girder]

Golden age salvage is still a thing and we've since rebuilt a lot after the collapse. I wouldn't be surprised if there were already exo salvage or production efforts happening.
Not turning people into exos obviously but still maintaining the people who were exos.

We have facilities in the city now

It's a city

Not a village

[ruby pivot]

i know right, hmmm can a ghost regrow/replace a missing limb for a human

or the human have to die

to regrow what they lost?

because if not, wow i guess dying is a much preferrable way to have ur limb back

[slim girder]

Probably not unfortunately. We're guardians but we still behave like humans.

Can still break our limbs and everything. We're not captain America super soldiers or anything and are still squishy

[ruby pivot]

otherwise a guardian might be just disabled for the rest of their career

yes i know that part, but what i mean is if we lost our arm for example during a fight and the only way to have it back is by dying

[slim girder]

Cayde took a full body hit from the hangman. Couldn't imagine the damage if it was a human or awoken guardian

[ruby pivot]

that someone complicated way to be fully intact

[slim girder]

One eyed mask is about a guardian who had his eye torn out.

[ruby pivot]

right forgot that exotic exists

[slim girder]

Did we ever get an answer about who elsie was speaking to back in D1 before she vanished? "Kill the engines and don't let them find you" another dark future maybe?

Vex invasion?

[trim grotto]

Nope

[fast tapir]

unfortunate

It's probably not important now but it would be cool to know

[empty fern]

Forever a

[slim girder]

Would be kinda funny if one day we're with Elsie and she tells us she has to talk to us back in D1.

Would throw the lore into a weird spot though and I don't think bungie wants to bring in too much time travel shenanigans

[empty fern]

Real

[brittle dirge]

I always assumed it was a reference to splicer and the possible dark future it could’ve caused but I don’t think we know

That whole dialogue was very cryptic and mysterious for the sake of being so

[ember storm]

Huh

[fast tapir]

I'm not even sure

[ember storm]

Famous Elsie related plot of season of the splicer

[brittle dirge]

I meant the vex destroying the last city

She has a connection with the vex so that’s what I assumed

[dim minnow]

Osiris was a possible candidate given Bungie's original plans for him

[lost abyss]

I'm surprised that old cutscene was never referenced anywhere ever. You'd think that would be something they'd clarify in passing, somewhere in lore, or during a side quest like Born in Darkness.

[brittle dirge]

That old cutscene felt very ominous and foreshadowing

Kinda like it was just that way because why not

I don’t think they had any clue where they were gonna go with it

[lost abyss]

Currently, it just feels like a fever dream to me. Like it was just hallucinated into canon for a brief moment and then vanished.

[ember storm]

I mean that just happens a whole lot in long running franchises

D1 was just plagued by an incredibly rushed rewrite for a plot

Can’t really expect all of it to seriously stick

[brittle dirge]

I mean there are some things that are planned and set in stone in this game years in advance (Elsie mattering to the story and the Darkness being important)

But there’s also elements in the lore that felt like the team threw in there for it making sense and fitting in the universe and not being planned at first (Us killing Riksis causing Aksis’ rise to power)

I highly doubt any of ROI was planned early into D1’s life especially Aksis and the snowball effect of us killing Riksis

He was just a fun one off character used to be seen as a threat

[brittle dirge]

This snowball effect is often used though in D1 and D2 (Oryx seeking revenge for Crota, the Echoes after TFS) it shows us our actions cause consequences and issues for both us and our allies

[dim minnow]

well what else were we going to do?

not kill Crota?

[trim grotto]

Harshly reprimand him

[dim minnow]

"go in the corner"

[brittle dirge]

No but we still have to realize that something bad will happen if we do this stuff

[ember storm]

I have no political knowledge on hive so I just won’t form an opinion on it

[dim minnow]

well it won't be our fault if our enemies decide to keep fucking around

[ember storm]

Surely this won’t come back to harm me later

[dim minnow]

because they will always find out

[ember storm]

Oryx does not get a shred of sympathy for losing the son he kicked out of the house

The two literally hadn’t even spoke since that very moment

He just used him as a power source and got upset it was cut off

He also disowned the other one and literally erased all mentions of him from written history so like

Eh, still a better parent than Savathun

[dim minnow]

following the Sword Logic, he doesn't even deserve sympathy from them either

[brittle dirge]

Kicks son out
Son dies
How could this happen?!

[dim minnow]

to be fair, it was Crota's fuck-up

[ember storm]

I’ll lock my son out of the house for the evening, that’ll show him!

The unattended neighborhood coyotes:

[brittle dirge]

Fucking dies

[dim minnow]

if Crota comes back with a dozen coyote pelts, then he gets praised

if not, then oh well, his fault for being weak

[brittle dirge]

The main point I’m getting at with the consequences thing is we lose no matter what

[lost abyss]

iirc Savathun was originally the reason why the Vex incursion that got Crota kicked out happened in the first place. Which is really funny

[trim grotto]

She tricked him into letting them into the Throne World, yeah.

[brittle dirge]

Worlds worst aunt

[lost abyss]

Ah, I'm not crazy yay

[dim minnow]

idk, we've been winning pretty hard

after all, Crota's death was what paved the way for Oryx's

[brittle dirge]

Aksis was a pretty big threat tbh though

The issue we DON’T see this shit coming

[dim minnow]

and we still won

[brittle dirge]

How are we supposed to know it will spiral?

[brittle dirge]

We were close to losing

[dim minnow]

eh

[brittle dirge]

We could’ve died in numerous ways

Without the pillars SIVA density critical would’ve liked us

[lost abyss]

Honestly in regards to victories, we usually win by the skin of our teeth. I like to think of most threats we engage, as a David v Goliath.

[brittle dirge]

This

We win due to some new thing we’ve gotten or the enemy’s ego

[ember storm]

It usually just comes down to guardian tactics really

[lost abyss]

We win, but the thing that makes it interesting is how stacked the odds usually are. It's fun to see a multitude of characters contribute to a victory over the course of a conflict.

[ember storm]

We didn’t have a special trick to taking out all the armies of Crota or oryx

We just exploited their tribute lines

[brittle dirge]

In recent years we’ve had (deepsight, strand, stasis, prism, etc.)

In ROI we had the axe

[ember storm]

None of that really directly translates to us being better

Stasis only mattered in the final confrontation with Eramis because we broke out of her stasis attack

You can literally just not use strand against Calus

You’re given the specific choice not to

[brittle dirge]

I’d say it does

We wouldn’t be able to kill multiple things in these expansions

[lost abyss]

We always find the "Achilles heel". We rarely ever overpower threats.

[ember storm]

There’s a degree of separation between gameplay effects and lore

[brittle dirge]

You can’t not use them to kill the super canceling things

[ember storm]

It’s not “this would be impossible to do so”

[ember storm]

You can

Those were outside

The final boss with Calus literally has a strand empowerment toggle next to the rally flag

You can just not use the loaned strand powers for the entire boss

Nothing about him was related to the use of strand

There wasn’t any scripted segment where strand was necessary in the Calus fight

[lost abyss]

I'd attribute that exclusively to a gameplay aspect. Otherwise, the Strand mini-arc was even more redundant.

[brittle dirge]

I’m pretty sure it’s canonically we used it though

[ember storm]

Why even make it a choice though

Beyond Light made the specific decision to have you use stasis at the end of the fight

[lost abyss]

There's no evidence to support what we actually used during Calus' defeat, but it would be counter intuitive to not have Strand be one of the reasons for the victory.

[trim grotto]

That was for gameplay
Some folks got uppity about the forced usage and that they couldn't "play as (they) want"

[lost abyss]

This

[brittle dirge]

Truth

[lost abyss]

Is a funny thing

[frigid sparrow]

as someone who hasn't looked at most of the lore regarding vesper's, why does raneiks split like that

[trim grotto]

I, too, split into a dozen smaller me's when scared

[lost abyss]

Self-defense mitosis

[frigid sparrow]

yeah we all do but it's a robot that's different

[lost abyss]

Hey, Servitors have feelings too :(

[frigid sparrow]

then what was bro feeling

[regal palm]

Silly :3

[lost abyss]

Lonely, they just wanted to integrate a new friend. But, then we blew it up :(

Should've accepted the offer

[frigid sparrow]

was the house light servitor even in the eliksni quarter bc I'm like 90% sure we don't see any servitors in there outside of mithrax's personal one

[dim minnow]

there are multiple servitors that share a same name

in Fallen houses

[lost abyss]

My favorite is Raneiks-7

[dim minnow]

and different ones are denoted by numbers

[trim grotto]

Three of them are called Gerald

[dim minnow]

so Raneiks is at least 10 servitors named Raneiks 0 to 9

and the effects of the corruption allowed then to merge into Raneiks "Unified"

[frigid sparrow]

oh okay so anomaly stuff

[dim minnow]

a lot of Vesper is anomaly stuff

you know, no one has ever mentioned that contaiment room at the start of the dungeon that had those Vex-looking cubes

where one is missing

like it seems that no one ingame even noticed it

[lost abyss]

Foreshadowing

[ember storm]

Although we have fought dividing servitors before

Nothing to this extent

[frigid sparrow]

well, yeah, but the dividing happened when they were destroyed, they didn't Unified™️ back together

[ember storm]

[frigid sparrow]

I just wanted a reason to Unified™️

[lost abyss]

When do Guardians get to Unified™

[trim grotto]

The Witness tried but we said no

[lost abyss]

We must unite as one, to become Giga Zavala

[ember storm]

No Zavala mask

A shame

[empty fern]

For now

Maybe we’ll get a

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-2-witness-targe-crush-crushed-gif-3964191028466049828

Targe mask

[frigid sparrow]

damn, a second mask of a deceased ghost that was mercilessly destroyed by the witness? let's just start taking names of all the dead ghosts around town and start giving everyone ptsd

[empty fern]

Yuh

[slim girder]

I did. I suspect atraks under the influence took it but I also wonder if that cube somehow became the anomaly. Like is vex tech able to expand such a degree.

And why a piece of vex tech?

[dim minnow]

the anomaly without a doubt looks very Vex-like

[dim minnow]

Vesper Central did say that the station was used for an experiment regarding creating an ai with Vex-tech

[slim girder]

Right the "unbodied mind" also adding to things no one noticed I only learnt from a byf video about the message that came through the anomaly.
"Lodi transmitting, status, moon sick adrift, Odysseus protocol active"

[dim minnow]

yeah I wonder what that means

[slim girder]

It appears after you beat the first encounter on the wall next to what I assume is vespers actual "body"

[dim minnow]

you can hear it ingame right next to Vesper Central in the first encounter

yeah

I think you need at least one completion for it to appear

or you need to complete Rogue Network idk which

[slim girder]

That'd make sense. The whole story of the dungeon is us discovering it's secrets and helping the Ai break the locks placed on her.

I think it's cool that after you've broken the final lock and repeat the dungeon her whole way of talking is different

And of course she's now astrea

Not vesper central

[dim minnow]

yeah

she also seems to be Soteria's sister

hmmm, I wonder if she was made with vex tech as well

maybe Astrea was the mind Clovis made to try and infiltrate the Vexnet

[slim girder]

It's possible. She was in charge of a station related to vex experiments afterall

Just under a lot of progreammed "rules" i suspect that was because of soterias disobedience

[dim minnow]

though her abilities were neutered

yeah

but also because Clovis intended to crash the station on Europa to hide any evidence

[slim girder]

The usual clovis schemes I guess

Human lives second, divinity of the gods first

[dim minnow]

hmmmm

I do wonder though, that message sent back by the anomaly

seemed human

could they be a group of humans who escaped the Collapse like the Neomuni?

perhaps they are the Jovians

[slim girder]

It's definitely human. My guess is that we might have another neomuna situation. But instead of a city it could be another lost civilisation that survived the collapse. Although the term moonsick means that they have gone insane

Be it human or even another ai

[dim minnow]

moonsick?

[slim girder]

Yes moonsick is a term meaning that someone has lost their mind

Through exposure to something

[dim minnow]

there is an also more uncommon definiton

"Affected by or exhibiting an unusual or dreamy sentimentality."

[slim girder]

That to

Another meaning is someone is emotionally deranged

Again not sure if it's human or an ai or even a ship with name lodi but we can confirm that they've been "lost" it seems. Adrift in whenever they are and they could have very well gone mad due to being stuck that way

[dim minnow]

the term might not be used literally

also note "adrift"

so there might be more to it than that

[slim girder]

Also curious what Odysseus protocol might mean.

That's why I think it's definitely human

An alien species I don't think would know what greek figures are

[hardy anvil]

Riddle me this, dovler.

What is this referring to when it says "While familiar in shape"

[slim girder]

It just means that it's the familiar shape of a sniper rifle.

[lost abyss]

That's what I thought too

edited...

[hardy anvil]

[lost abyss]

Oh, my old pfp

well, sorta

[hardy anvil]

Just doesn't feel like a satisfactory answer

but makes sense

[trim grotto]

That's how I read it

[lost abyss]

Yeah, idk if it can really have another meaning

[sick yew]

I just remembered something
Why did the Witness allow Eramis to try and blow up the Traveler in Seraph when we know it needed the Traveler for the final shape

[trim grotto]

I assume it would've been Collapse 2.0
Loki Crown/Abhorrent Imperative - wound the Traveler enough to halt it from acting or leaving

An old Rasputin protocol

[lost abyss]

I assume the main threat was the fallout since it was right over The Last City, even in orbit. The Traveler itself probably wasn't in much danger

[sick yew]

Somehow i feel like the Warsats would have done more than just wound the Traveler ngl

[sick yew]

You sure? To me the Traveler always has been a lot less resistant to stuff compared to the Black Fleet

[lost abyss]

It usually chooses to not engage in conflict e.g. The Red Legion's cage, and Savathun's ritual. But, when it does take action it has shown to be unmatched. The Witness was the only real threat to it, as it could parry an attack from the Traveler and use it to access the Pale Heart with minimal effort.

The Warsats being a causal WMD meant to subjugate the Traveler in-case it would flee, was a plan developed by Clovis that Rasputin never went through with iirc. Clovis attempting to stop the Traveler in any capacity sounds like his usual kind of hubris and folly. But, that's just how I interpreted Seraph's conclusion.

[sick yew]

"when it does take action it has shown to be unmatched" Are you sure? The only time it really took action with effect was against Ghaul who at that point was made out of light probably giving it a higher effectiveness
The other time it indirectly destroyed a pyramid via the growth but also yk resurrected fucking Nezzy

[lost abyss]

The Traveler moving into orbit also felt like it was trying to minimize the damage from the City.

[sick yew]

Correct

[lost abyss]

We don't have many causal cases regarding the Traveler. By that I mean, we only really see it dealing with something paracausal, which it has been unable to deal with and was the reason it kept fleeing the Black Fleet. The Warsats aren't like anything the Witness has, and presumably the original wound it has on it's lower half was from something paracausal.

The only thing I can really think of is the cage. I could be forgetting something from it's previous trips before Humanity. But as far as I know, the Fleet was the only conflict it ran into during that time.

[sick yew]

You mean what caused the piece to break off that would become the shard in the EDZ?

[lost abyss]

Yeah

[sick yew]

Not sure if we ever got a definitive answer but I am on the side that it was a cut from the black fleet during the collapse

Since we now for sure know Rasputin didnt shoot

But now the question arises how do you "immobalize" the traveler?
Its a floating orb unless you somehow restrain it to the planet I cant imagine theres much you can do that wouldnt outright destroy it

[lost abyss]

Something like the Black Heart. iirc That was the main reason it wasn't doing much and was considered "Dead".

[sick yew]

I'm talking conventional weaponry
The black heart was paracausal

[lost abyss]

It honestly depends on what kind of causal means can significantly affect the Traveler. Which, unfortnately I don't think we have much info on.

[blazing wasp]

we can assume some conventional weaponry can harm the traveler if powerful enough, but it would likely require a fuckload of firepower

[lost abyss]

For all we know, the Warsats could've caused signifcant damage to it, but we'll probably never know now.

[blazing wasp]

i will be assuming that the warsats would not be able to noticably harm the traveler

because the witness needed the traveler alive, and also wanted the warsats fired on the traveler

at the very least the warsats would be weak enough to not kill the traveler with 100% certainty, the witness wouldnt risk the traveler dying.

[lost abyss]

Yeah, I can see it following the same rules as Ghosts. Where you either need to be/use something paracausal, or cause overwhelming amount of causal damage, shattering the core.

See Petra carpet bombing Guardians and their Ghosts

[blazing wasp]

ghosts are probably more fragile than the traveler in terms of how much firepower is needed to harm it (see izanagis burden against ghosts)

also that yeah

[sick yew]

You can kill a ghost with something as simple as a eliksni arc pistol lol

[blazing wasp]

the monte carlo lore tab involving that implies that this is bullshit and the guardian just killed him himself to steal the loot

[sick yew]

Shayura also gunned down a ghost with her smg

[blazing wasp]

tbf our guns are infused with the light

[lost abyss]

We have a good idea one a Ghost's resilience. Drifter's Ghost flew straight through someone's skull once.

[blazing wasp]

so we fire paracausal munitions

(why we cannot use this against hive ghosts is likely purely gameplay)

[sick yew]

They fluctuate a lot is the issue

[lost abyss]

Yeah, definitely can chalk that up to gameplay.

[sick yew]

Also didn't the ghost that resurrected baby Shin also get killed by a basic Eliksni gun

[blazing wasp]

that i dont recall, i'd have to check up on that

[lost abyss]

Also, a close analogue to a large paracausal being/object having an interaction with causal weaponry, Asher fired various missiles at the Pyramid on Io, and they were just suspended some weird state that never allowed them to hit the target. My thought is that, if The Black Fleet has such means against causal weaponry, then it might be plausible to say The Traveler has some kind of way to keep itself safe, if it can't directly tank the damage unscathed.

[slim girder]

Not blow up. Just stop it from leaving. With the amount of firepower the warsats have I wouldn't put it past eramis to be able to put a hole through it or blast off a piece of the traveler. And the witness was egging her on to "make it know your pain"

[sick yew]

Again the Traveler is a floating orb of paracausality

Break of as much shit as you want why would that make it stop going where it wants to

[slim girder]

Because it wouldn't be able to. After it broke ghauls cage it spent ages healing itself. And then in arrivals it was finally able to restore what it lost from exerting that power.

It is a paracausal being yes but it's not like it can just do what it wants and it's still susceptible to being hurt

We heard it screaming in pain during final shape

[lost abyss]

Because of the Witness, yes.

[slim girder]

The pale heart was the equivalent of invasive surgery

When the witness opened it

[lost abyss]

We were talking about what causal means can affect the Traveler, since we don't have much info on this topic in particular.

[slim girder]

So far only Rasputin and ghaul have had the means of "effecting" the traveler.

[lost abyss]

Whether or not the Warsats would have done anything is a toss up, because the main stake was The City being destroyed as collateral.

[slim girder]

The traveler was in orbit. The warsats weren't aimed for the city it was more eramis attempting to make us watch the thing we put our faith in be destroyed or hurt

Eliksni especially

[lost abyss]

We don't know what Warsat cannons are capable of afaik. We've only ever seen them crash into things.

I wouldn't be surprised if a Golden Ag Warmind WMD was able to cause some kind of damage to the surface from hitting an object in near orbit.

[slim girder]

We know what they're capable of. It happened during titans evacuation. Rasputin fired at leaving colony ships to kill a scientist. The closest I could compare it to is the orbital laser we have in onslaught but obviously on a massive scale

Cut through a ship and then lit the wreckage on fire

[lost abyss]

Was that from Kracken Mare?

[slim girder]

Yes. Dr Pell was the scientist being targeted I believe

[lost abyss]

Haven't read up on that yet, so we do have an example. However, still not sure how many cases of The Traveler being affected by something that isn't paracausal. I can still only think Ghaul's cage, and that was during an inactive period for the Traveler. It likely didn't immediately break the cage because it might've been hoping Humanity would deal with the invasion without alerting the Fleet.

[slim girder]

The traveler acts in mysterious ways. But as I said it is a paracausal being but I don't believe it's completely able to just do as it pleases and can only do certain things when it has the energy to do so. It will definitely attempt to protect itself but these efforts seem to take a lot of energy from it

Creating the ghosts, breaking ghauls cage, pushing back the black fleet, firing the terraforming beam, etc

It's also lost a lot of itself in the forms of different shards scattered on earth and the moon along with things like that black heart siphoning it's energy away.

To me at least the traveler is powerful yes but very scarred and always will be. It's not going to be terraforming planets anymore

[blazing wasp]

paracausality is not the ability to do anything, paracausality has its own set of rules.

[slim girder]

Yes I did mean the traveler can't do anything within its own bounds obviously.

Which is why I brought up it's ability to terraform planets

[blazing wasp]

yeah, i was just making an addition to yours.

[slim girder]

Thanks. Just didn't want any confusion is all.

[ember storm]

I love confusion

[errant tapir]

I saw immaru dialogue in haunted sector

What is the connection?

Immaru ghost of trickery like Loki?

[ember storm]

Season of the witch happened around Halloween last year

He was just around when FotL happened

[dim minnow]

Last year's festival had Immaru make his own Frankenstein Headless One andnsetbit loose in the tower

So it can eat up all the candy

[brittle dirge]

Most of VH is a what is going on moment

We don’t have clear reasons for most things

[eager trout]

Immaru really is a saturday morning cartoon villain

[brittle dirge]

Truth

[lost abyss]

is a funny thing

[eager trout]

He even says something like "those meddling kids(Guardians)" in the Throne World

[lost abyss]

Neon Nerds is a favorite of mine

[dim minnow]

ah yes, in canon slurs for Lightbearers

[lost abyss]

Only someone as goofy as Immaru could come up with this. I think "Glitter Bugs" is in reference to Lucents. I don't recall though

[pure tree]

do champions exist in lore or are they purely a gameplay thing?

[dim minnow]

ehhh

there's only one potential mentioning of them in a bounty flavor text

but I wouldn't be surprised if they are canon

[lost abyss]

The Witness would've succeeded if it deployed 100,000 Unstoppable Screebs. Honestly, a skill issue on it's part.

[trim grotto]

Gameplay, currently. One offhand non specific bounty text mentioned them and naught else.

[frigid sparrow]

The witness would've won if it deployed those exploder shanks that appear on the Europa eclipsed zone scanner fallen

[fervent sandal]

Is eris awoken?

Or just human

[trim grotto]

Human.

[slim girder]

Think. Our guardian would have doomed us all if we squished him at the beginning of season of the witch.

[fresh zephyr]

What fallen house would you guys say is the strongest ever, house of kings, house if wolves, or house of devils?

And, wth happened to house judgement??

Did they just get off screened without us knowing??

[trim grotto]

House Judgement hasn't been a full house since the Long Drift. Like, before D1.

Variks has been the only member left for centuries.

[fresh zephyr]

interesting

i always thought they had more than just varriks

i couldve sworn there was a green banner of fallen on the moon in d1

[trim grotto]

House Wolves had the greatest fighting force at one point, but then the Reef Wars happened.

[trim grotto]

Exiles.

"House" of Exiles

[slim girder]

I believe kings was. Based on lore they seemed to have the most influence over eliksni

[trim grotto]

Kings pulled the strings from the shadows

Wolves had the greatest army

[fresh zephyr]

it took a literal ahamkara wish to kill them all

[trim grotto]

The Wolves? That was largely the Reef Wars. The destruction of Ceres in particular.

[fresh zephyr]

no im saying the kings

wolves lost naturally

[trim grotto]

That was Uldren and Fikrul. Riven was only tangentially related.

[fresh zephyr]

the new dungeon confirmed something else to led up to that

[lost abyss]

Didn't Kings have a Machiavellian-esque plot going on before Uldren came along? Kind of wish that didn't get subverted and left us with Dusk. Would've been cool to see a payoff similar to Sav.

[slim girder]

He meant to kill them completely since they were scorn in warlords ruin

[trim grotto]

Oh, sure. There were a handful of Kings there, but that wasn't really a major fighting force. The leadership was killed by Uldren and Fikrul.

Also, not the new Dungeon.

That would be Vesper's Host, now.

[fresh zephyr]

oh right

[brittle dirge]

Devils had the splicers which were one of the biggest fallen threats we faced at the time but that’s sorta a subset

[slim girder]

Splicers were a part of every house. They were just an eliksni dedicated to bioengineering. Just like eliksni called weavers who made cables and stuff

[brittle dirge]

I know

I was referring to Devil splicers though as they were the only splicers to modify themselves with SIVA

If every house did that we might’ve been screwed

[lost abyss]

Siva mentioned

[slim girder]

My bad. I thought you were saying the splicers were a whole other house

[brittle dirge]

No its fine

If all splicers were Devil splicers then season of the splicer would’ve played out differently

[lost abyss]

Since the nanotech used by the Neomuni is stated to be more advanced than SIVA, do you think it would ever go awry if someone used it the way Rasputin used SIVA?

[trim grotto]

Well, there was that one event

With the uh... whatchacallems...

Uplift Coven

[brittle dirge]

Thing with that, I highly expected Maya to use it as she was acting the same way as Rasputin when both were looking for a loved one

Rasputin wanted to control felwinter and when he didn’t listen tried to (and did) kill him

Maya wanted to find chioma and killed every fake (and real) one in the way

Both were acting irrational and I highly expected with her ties to Neptune she would use it

[slim girder]

I'm calling it "speed metal" because of the ghost that has it on it's shell

[trim grotto]

Most folks call it quicksilver, but that works too.

[lost abyss]

Quicksilver is what I've been referring to it, until further notice.

[slim girder]

Ever since I saw that ghost shell I've just been calling it speed metal

Kinda felt like it's bungie telling us what it actually is.

[trim grotto]

Speed Metal Shell, Quicksilver Storm
Both sound like names

[lost abyss]

They are both similar in meaning too.

[brittle dirge]

“I love [person] I want [person] to be near me and around me [person] refuses/can’t find them use nanotechnology I created to kill [person] and their friends”

[lost abyss]

They are literally just different ways to describe "Fast metal"

minor spelling mistake

[fresh zephyr]

Could tanniks come back from after that raid..

The dude is built like a terminator

[lost abyss]

Unless someone takes his head from the camp on Europa, no.

[fresh zephyr]

😔

Screw it wish him back

[slim girder]

Only thing left for taniks to come back as is a scorn.

But I don't really see any reason for that to happen anytime soon

Actually speaking of taniks I saw an insane theory on Reddit

Taniks is the herald of finality

Because of the T shaped head and eliksni biology of that dread enemy

[fresh zephyr]

thats a good one

i saw another about that enemy being the old kell of house stone

[lost abyss]

There's a Dread enemy based on Eliksni?

[slim girder]

Yes the herald of finality in SE

[lost abyss]

Wouldn't that be Taken instead?

[slim girder]

Both most likely. A taken captain turned into a dread.
But it's still definitely based on an eliksni.

Exactly the same kind of movement as all other big fallen enemies we've fought

[blazing wasp]

Initial theory during day 1

Not even the only enemy of that exact design

[lost abyss]

Yeah, the boss is definitely Eliksni in form. But, not sure how Dread fits. iirc It doesn't differ much from a Captain boss's moveset.

[blazing wasp]

Dread like skin

[slim girder]

Well that's what dread are. They're twisted experiments on the other alien races. Husks are based off hive acolytes for example

[blazing wasp]

Most of the dread have other enemy traits

[ember storm]

It also doesn’t actually resemble Taniks in any meaningful way

[slim girder]

Again it was just a crazy theory I saw with the only evidence being it's T shaped head which was similar to taniks own head.

And the dread being eliksni in biology

[lost abyss]

Oh, that makes sense. Haven't gotten a good look at the model.

[slim girder]

@lost abyss if you're interested have a look at each dread unit. Bungie even said it's a throughline they've been teasing.

[lost abyss]

Oh, yeah. That's definitely Dread.

[blazing wasp]

The eyes remind me of Maya lmao

[jagged badge]

Pretty sure that’s also just a theory

A game theory

[ember storm]

The thing is D1 boss taken were also just weirdly red for some reason

All the “dread” stuff is just armor visible on the herald

https://preview.redd.it/what-enemy-weapon-do-you-wish-we-could-use-ill-go-first-v0-3dtq8slc81cc1.jpeg?auto=webp&s=ce15277195a2ceb77fa733ddc1ae86db8762abaf

All other dread are missing entire limbs and heads replaced with pyramid tech

[slim girder]

Not a theory it's been confirmed.
Subjugators: Rhulk/Lubrean
Tormentors: Nezarec/whatever race he actually is.
Weaver and attendant: Psion
Husks/geist: Acolytes and worms
Grim: Unknown alien race.

[ember storm]

Husks resemble worms

[slim girder]

Worms yes

[ember storm]

They’re presumably dead acolyte husks piloted by the worms

[blazing wasp]

Worms make the most sense

[slim girder]

The worms also have 3 eyes

Iirc

[ember storm]

Pretty guy

[lost abyss]

The Herald has similar skin motifs to Rhulk, and Nezarec. Wonder what's going on with directly Witness aligned things sharing the same red scales.

[blazing wasp]

Harold

[lost abyss]

oop

Harold of Finality. My favorite raid boss.

[slim girder]

We will call him Harold from now on

[lost abyss]

Psion heads always looked like potatoes to me

[slim girder]

The red was also another part of the theory. And we've yet to see taniks as a taken so I guess people thought this was him instead of coming back with 1 new form he's now a taken and a dread.

ALSO

[slim girder]

Thagomisers?

[lost abyss]

Honestly, Harold feels oddly out of place in the raid. Recently raid bosses have context in some form, but this one is just kind of there, I guess?

[slim girder]

I just saw it as a dread commander.. like this particular dread would lead the charge to enact the final shape

A big boss stopping us from getting to the witness

Like how calus called himself the herald of the witness

[lost abyss]

Yeah, it doesn't seem very different compared to other bosses in the past. But, thus far we've had context given for each boss, whether it be through environmental storytelling (See Caretaker), or a small moment in a cutscene (See Atraks). Even Explicator was given context in a Bungie article.

[ember storm]

I feel like that’s the bare minimum and it was basically a year after the raid tbh

We don’t even have direct confirmation that’s how Titan was returned

[empty fern]

So

DOKI DOKI lore

And actual lore
Who’s the new characters in the new iron banner armor

[ornate pike]

Eido
I get it
Things are rough, your dad is sick, and Fikrul is messing thins up
I am not releasing a terrorist so she can help you make essential oils you naive goober

[empty fern]

Grave robber step 2 is so real

Lore question of the day

who is Rowe

[slim girder]

So.

I finished the act

Wow

I'm actually really excited for things now

[dim minnow]

Welp, guess I was right

TO THE MOOOOOON

[brittle dirge]

Is that his actual head? I feel like it’s a replica

[brittle dirge]

Taniks laughs when you die due to his deceased shank corpse

[trim grotto]

Some people thought that was intentional for a while
Which was interesting

[trim grotto]

I expect it's just his helmet.

[brittle dirge]

It wasn’t…?

I thought it was a funny Easter egg

[trim grotto]

Of course not
Just Bungie coding
Proximity to his body causes damage, death by Taniks causes a laugh
But because they place the body in that specific location as an entity, and it still has the AoE damage, it can still proc the laugh line

It isn't a standard corpse but an active entity in the area

[brittle dirge]

Well I assumed that as there is a unique animation of him dying in a unique area

[trim grotto]

Yep
Which means the kill line is still active

Just silly programming though

[brittle dirge]

He always teleports there which makes it have to act different from other corpses as well as the fact the corpse hurts you

Which isn’t normal

Besides like incinerators ig when you shoot their back

[trim grotto]

Technically the incinerator pack is a separate entity as well

[brittle dirge]

I’m pretty sure any lethal corpse is separate

[brittle dirge]

I’ve kinda like never died to Taniks so I didn’t know he laughed

Boss is too easy

Only deaths have been lowman runs and it wasn’t ever to him but instead radiation

[trim grotto]

It's a pretty chill boss fight
It is funny when people die to being yeeted by a rock though

[brittle dirge]

I never understood that

Hit the A button

Or space

Or whatever you play on

[uneven canyon]

Who are the Praxics?

[empty fern]

Solar warlock order from long ago? Around Sunbreaker age I think

[ornate pike]

yeah no I really don't like how
We just
Are acting like Eramis doesn't deserve life in prison.
She's genuinely horrible and is probs gonna either betray us again or hopefully die.
||I stg if the echo that fikrul has chooses her I might take a break||

[lost abyss]

They still have active members too, Aunor is one, and iirc Shayura too.

[trim grotto]

A Warlock order of the Last City. The simple explanation is that they're zealots of the Light, bent on extinguishing Darkness wherever it is found.
They are... very slow to accept the newfound common use of Darkness.

[lost abyss]

Yeah, the aforementioned Shayura killed other Guardians just off the bases of them using Darkness, and nothing else.

She's an outlier though iirc. Other Praxics didn't commit murders like she did. Only necessary executions for the ones that fell to temptation, which is a risk when using Stasis in particular.

[gusty patrol]

the witness

[lost abyss]

My favorite Praxic Warlock. Very stylish ferrofluid-y robe

[brittle dirge]

I wonder if we’ll ever encounter Jana-14

Like in game

[merry aspen]

Asked chat gpt to sum up the story for me

Destiny 1 Lore Summary

In Destiny, humanity’s Golden Age is sparked by the arrival of the Traveler, a mysterious, godlike sphere that bestows advanced technology and vast knowledge, allowing humanity to colonize the solar system. This prosperity is abruptly ended by the arrival of the Darkness, an ancient force that nearly wipes out humanity in the event known as the Collapse. The Traveler sacrifices itself to repel the Darkness, becoming dormant above Earth and creating Ghosts to seek out Guardians—humans and aliens resurrected with Light to defend the remnants of humanity.

Players embody a Guardian, awakening centuries after the Collapse in a world overrun by alien factions: the Fallen, scavengers seeking to reclaim their power; the Hive, ancient beings tied to the Darkness; the Vex, time-traveling machines; and the Cabal, a militaristic empire. Guided by their Ghost and allied with the Vanguard in the Tower, Guardians seek to reclaim lost territories and uncover the mysteries of the Traveler. The campaign culminates with the defeat of Crota, a Hive prince, and Atheon, a Vex entity controlling time in the Vault of Glass, heralding humanity’s resurgence.

Destiny 2 Lore Summary

Destiny 2 begins with the fall of the Last City. The Red Legion, led by the Cabal warlord Dominus Ghaul, attacks Earth and captures the Traveler, severing Guardians’ connection to the Light. Stripped of their power, the Guardians rally under the leadership of Zavala, Ikora, and Cayde-6 to reclaim the Light and defeat Ghaul. The Traveler awakens during this battle, destroying Ghaul but sending a shockwave that signals the Darkness to return.

Subsequent expansions deepen the story. In Forsaken, Guardians investigate the death of Cayde-6 and confront Uldren Sov, corrupted by the influence of Riven, a Taken Ahamkara. Shadowkeep reveals the Hive’s growing power on the Moon and the Guardians’ first tangible encounter with the Darkness in the form of the Pyramid Ships. In Beyond Light, Guardians face Eramis, a Fallen leader wielding the Darkness, and are forced to use Stasis, a Darkness-based power, to prevail.

The saga builds toward an ultimate confrontation between Light and Darkness. The Witch Queen expansion exposes the Hive god Savathûn, who manipulates the Light, while Lightfall and The Final Shape explore the Guardians’ struggle to understand and harness both forces to protect humanity against the Witness, the ultimate avatar of the Darkness. Across both games, the series weaves themes of sacrifice, rebirth, and the constant struggle between opposing cosmic forc

[worldly river]

Holy fuck this plan was a terrible idea lmao

[worldly river]

That is 1000% where this story is going

I'm continuing to be disappointed with how much info about the Echoes we seem to just be pulling out of our ass

I think this one would have worked fine had they not inserted the cutscene before the boss fight because they probably felt they needed to explain what the boss was

I feel like it was intended to play after this week's developments, though even then Variks makes that comment after the fight so it's not just them misplacing a cutscene

Like how did we go from ||spooky music|| to ||Oh the Echo ids dissatisfied with Fikrul and wants to serve another wielder|| during that boss fight, nevermind the placement of the cutscene indicating we realized this before the fight even started

[tough badge]

yk with zavala and ikora being hunderds of years old u would think they would be better at controlling their emotions

[ember storm]

I mean their life situations weren’t really changing much

Ikora had been emotionally suppressing herself since she became warlock vanguard

Zavala lost his wife and son long before

[tough badge]

What I’m saying is they had time to learn and didn’t

[ember storm]

When

That’s like

The point of a character arc lmao

They’re not going to change unless the situation specifically calls for it to happen and they’re forced to reflect on themselves

[tough badge]

Ya but it just seems kinda dumb that it’s happening now would make more sense if it was earlier in their lives

[ember storm]

Zavala was cooped him in the tower blaming himself for his family’s death for hundreds of years

Literally what change was supposed to happen

Ikora had a personal hand in having Osiris exiled from the city and only just reunited with him in CoO, then Cayde died basically immediately afterwards

[tough badge]

I can understand ikoras more but zavalas was kinda dumb to me

Bro got his ghost killed cuz he was angry

[ember storm]

I don’t really see his actions in FS as “angry”

He got loud at other characters because they were directly opposing him, he wasn’t just throwing a tantrum

[tough badge]

Ya but they were opposing him cuz he was taking unnecessary risk to them

[frigid sparrow]

||"we need to break eramis out of prison" eido, buddy, I dunno how to tell you this, but she is literally a minute away||

||wait why did we set her free again lmao this actually got memory holed in an instant||

[ember storm]

||sorta was supposed to tie into the firework missions but the dialogue was broken so I don’t blame you for missing it, Eido can’t locate the previous apothecary and needs help brewing new potions, Eramis is supposed to know something about it||

[frigid sparrow]

||oh okay it's just that they were literally having the discussion about how Eramis could potentially know what the deal is with the Echo's song since she knew of old Riis so that followed by "DO A PRISON BREAK" was strange to say the least||

[dim minnow]

||it also turns out that Fikrul's relationship with the Echo isn't exactly great||

||so Eido hopes that Eramis can persuade the Echo to ditch him||

[frigid sparrow]

||oh okay that makes a bit more sense sorta||

||so what're the chances of the echo holding the memories of Chelchis||

[trim grotto]

Eh
Human nature

[tough badge]

i sound like im saying "bro ur family died get over it" 🤣

[trim grotto]

While I wouldn't ever recommend AI as a reliable tool for this sort of thing, I have seen worse summaries, and it doesn't appear to be outright incorrect.

[slim girder]

No matter how old you are there's always a breaking point with people. Just imagine how long botb have gone having to watch chaos form around them for possibly centuries and then face it with a straight face

[tough badge]

ik but still people learn that things happen then either put up a front or push through

i feel with a couple more hundred years than the average human u could learn to push through it

[slim girder]

Immortality is a terrible burden for guardians. There's a few instances in the lore of guardians struggling to come to terms with the fact that they'll never naturally pass unless killed.

[tough badge]

that parts understandable

idk maybe its cuz they r the vanguard leaders that i think they should have more control over it

as well with saint didnt he have an issue with identity before season of echoes

[slim girder]

You'd think that yes but again everyone has a breaking point. Both Zavala and ikora have gone through countless kinds of trauma and some they're still moving on from.
Zavala with his family and ikora after cayde died.

[tough badge]

i feel like it would have made more sense if it happened in red war cuz they lost the light and that would have spooked everyone

[slim girder]

Look at how Zavala behaved when he lost targe

[tough badge]

i get the reaction to losing ur ghost but its the stuff that happened before

Zavala got Targe killed imo

And its because he wasn't in the right mind which is what i think doesnt make much sense

[slim girder]

He was partially responsible but targe made the choice willingly to bring him back from the witness

[tough badge]

Only cuz Zavala put himself in that situation

[trim grotto]

Zavala was undergoing a crisis of faith. For centuries, the Traveler was something he saw as a benevolent god. When it blessed the Hive, it began to crack his worldview.

[slim girder]

His own view of everything was thrown into chaos

[trim grotto]

In the end, he saw it not as a god, but as a... frightened creature.

[slim girder]

It's why when he lost his son he lashed out at targe and cursed the traveler for not bringing him back

[tough badge]

now this helps with the understanding of it

but then it gets into what u think is god which is something completely different

[slim girder]

Imagine the thing you put all your faith in sitting by as you lose everything. It can throw that whole ideology upside down.

[tough badge]

kinda forgot that the traveler gave light to the hive lol

[slim girder]

That only adds more to the confusion.

[tough badge]

if it happens again tho

then my reasoning is valid

[oblique kindle]

why did cayde not know saint was alive 🧍🏻

[trim grotto]

Because the return of Saint-14 happened shortly after Shadowkeep in Season of Dawn. Cayde-6 was dead.

Saint-14, as Cayde-6 knew him, had been missing presumed dead for decades, until we personally found his corpse in the Infinite Forest during Curse of Osiris's post-campaign.

[frigid sparrow]

moon fieldwork ||soooooo mithrax is NOT okay lmao||

[slim girder]

Nope

[frigid sparrow]

||he said "shut up" like an angsty teen though 💀 ||

[slim girder]

||Nezarec is like that drunk uncle who's a bad influence||

[frigid sparrow]

||sitting around the thanksgiving table when nezzy sits down and starts talking about all the races he's subjugated through his nightmares while everyone just sorts stares at each other awkwardly||

||wow these fieldworks are really just "fuck eido" lmao||

[trim grotto]

just gonna ping @oblique kindle before it gets lost in a sea of redacted text

[oblique kindle]

why did he go missing? i know very little about that :(

[frigid sparrow]

nessus fieldwork ||"you have borne the namesake of one of the greatest awoken heroes. earn it." damn eramis that was pretty raw I'm ngl!!||

[trim grotto]

He was searching for Osiris. His phoenix.

He was never seen again until the day we found his corpse.

[dim minnow]

given that the fieldworks are meant to happen before the story of this act is finished, ||it makes Eido lashing out at Crow make a lot more sense||

[oblique kindle]

if we found his corpse how is he alive? :0

[dim minnow]

long story

involved us taking a timeline where he hasn't died yet and grafting it to this one after we saved him

[oblique kindle]

can you explain in titan terms

this is in destiny 1 i assume

[trim grotto]

That would be due to the Sundial. Osiris created a machine with a paracausal core that tore open the fabric of time on Mercury in an attempt to find and save Saint-14. It nearly destroyed the solar system because the Red Legion tried to control it.

[dim minnow]

no, D2

[trim grotto]

Season of Dawn. Shortly after Shadowkeep.

[dim minnow]

Season of Dawn

[oblique kindle]

i hate that if you miss a season you miss lore

thank you!

[worldly river]

Yeah TLDR we essentially both jumped into a Vex simulation AND time travelled through it and retrieved a Saint who we now understand wasn't the same one from our reality, but it about as close as you could get

It's... complicated

[oblique kindle]

i missed alot huh

[worldly river]

Especially since this one not being the same one is essentially a retcon made in Episode Echoes

[oblique kindle]

welp 10 hour destiny video time

[trim grotto]

no retcon involved

just poor phrasing once or twice

[worldly river]

Yeeeees, let the lore flow throooough you

[oblique kindle]

i know alot about the game im terms of builds and locations..lore? i know like 3% of it

[worldly river]

I mean, as I understood it the original idea is he still was the same Saint, and Echoes basically was like "But wait, turns out we were wrong"
Which like, I'd still consider a retcon even if it's not CHANGED so much as added on

And I'm not calling em out for that cuz I think it's perfectly fair writing

[trim grotto]

Yeah, alright. Fair call.

[rugged veldt]

whoops

[trim grotto]

[dim minnow]

huh?

did I miss something

[trim grotto]

naah

[dim minnow]

[trim grotto]

[worldly river]

BTW am I correct in remembering that as of right now, the bulk of the Shadow Legion is rallied behind Oztot while some of it, as well as the Dread, are being commanded by Yirix?

[brittle dirge]

Any lore reason why there’s a ||new warden servitor now? It doesn’t have the same name as the mad warden so I assume it’s a different thing||

[sick yew]

Mitosis

I'm not 100% sure but it would be very funny if the initial mad warden thinking it was Variks got a new high servitor which then went through the exact same motions as before and now thinks it's Variks

I recall in the first ToE run the Warden Ai says something about a doppelgänger protocol when Variks tries to shut it off via a command

[brittle dirge]

Yes that’s true

It believes itself warden (variks) which the mad warden also did before we killed it

So maybe we’ll kill this one too at some point?

[golden wolf]

do we actually know the name of the echo that fikrul is wielding?

[slim girder]

Not yet.

[golden wolf]

interesting that we haven't gotten a name yet when we learnt the name of the one from episode one almost immediately

[slim girder]

We got the name of it in act 2. This echo however seems to have a mind of its own and is more alive than the last which only spoke to Maya and nothing more

[golden wolf]

yeah, the reveal that the current echo is unhappy with Fikrul and is trying to find someone better was interesting

[errant tapir]

U guys have any fun fact about lore?

Wanna increase my knowledge but idk where to start

Maybe chronological?

Red war until final shape?

[sick yew]

Here's one, before even the events of Forsaken Variks actually visited the last city as part of an audience he was granted with Zavala

This possibly makes him thd first ever Eliksni to have entered the last city eversince the early city age

For more read (my personal favorite lorebook) Most Loyal which follows Variks in the events that eventually lead up to Forsakens start

[errant tapir]

Can u tell me a story of forsaken?

I have no clue whatsoever

[sick yew]

Oh

[errant tapir]

What is this forsaken?

Is it an event?

A place?

[sick yew]

Forsaken was the name of one of the expansion

It is where we initially lost Cayde

[errant tapir]

Ohhh

So it refers only to the DLC?

Lost Cayde means Cayde dies?

[sick yew]

Forsaken refers to both the expansion and in context of lore a rough time frame of the games story

[sick yew]

Cayde died there yes, right at the start

[errant tapir]

[sick yew]

Cayde, Petra and we the guardian are called to the Prison of Elders to stop a riot happening there

[errant tapir]

Ooooooo

[jagged badge]

Turns out it’s not a riot but a prison break, ooooohh

[errant tapir]

Act 2 brings PoE again ya?

[sick yew]

Correct

First time we have been there since Forsaken

[errant tapir]

To free who?

[jagged badge]

Act 2 has brought an activity based on D1’s Prison of Elders activity

[jagged badge]

Uldren Sov and the Scorned Barons

[sick yew]

Uldren Sov and his followers

[errant tapir]

Ohhhhh

The one who killed Cayde

[sick yew]

Fikrul the Fanatic who is back in the story again too and the Barons

[errant tapir]

I bet the bad guy staged the prison break

[sick yew]

The rifleman, one of the barons

[errant tapir]

Fikrul?

[sick yew]

They had prepared a special devour bullet that could kill guardians properly but because Cayde pulled out Sundance, his ghost at the wrong moment the rifleman wanted to flex his aim and shot her instead

[errant tapir]

[sick yew]

Shortly after Cayde was mortally wounded by the hangman another baron and then ultimately shot by Uldren with himself who picked up Caydes gun

[errant tapir]

NOOOOOOOOO

[sick yew]

Cayde died very soon after in our company after the Uldren and the barons escape

[errant tapir]

What did we do after that?

Did we kill uldren as a revenge?

[jagged badge]

Nah, the Rifleman is called Pirrha

[sick yew]

Revenge

[sick yew]

Yes

[errant tapir]

YESSSSSSS

[sick yew]

Ffs

[jagged badge]

Yep. We went to the Tangled Shore in the Reef, hunted down the Barons one by one and then killed Uldren Sov

[sick yew]

Uldren would then later be resurrected by a ghost named Glint and took on the name Crow

[errant tapir]

If a ghost died, we cannot resurrect it?

[sick yew]

No

[jagged badge]

Correct

[errant tapir]

😦

[ember storm]

Also to add on the earlier point

The prison riot turned break only happened because of Variks

[sick yew]

If a ghost is dead they're dead dead

And their guardians connection to the light also gets severed

[errant tapir]

But I've seen it in the last part of excision? Or is it only ghost drained of light

[sick yew]

Ppshshshsh let them read most loyal

[jagged badge]

Cayde has a quote in Final Shape about how Guardians get so many second chances but Ghosts only get the one life

[jagged badge]

Our Ghost is a special case

[errant tapir]

Gasp

[jagged badge]

Cayde was brought back with pure Light from the Traveler and Riven’s wish magic. He was able to give up that Light and return to death to bring our Ghost back

[ember storm]

It’s also actually touched upon in tales of the lost vol. 4

Ghost attends a therapy sessions and expresses his survivor’s guilt

[errant tapir]

Yeah ik

Just sad tho

He was brought back from the dead just to die shortly after

I found out something

I know cayde's voice is familiar

Turns out it is the voice of Officer John Nolan

[sick yew]

Correct

He's a well known actor

[jagged badge]

And Gunnery Sergeant Edward Buck

And The Detachable Kid

[sick yew]

He was also in the newest guardians of the Galaxy

[jagged badge]

And Guy Gardner now

[errant tapir]

Oh really?

[sick yew]

Indeed

[errant tapir]

Guy GARDENER? DC?

gasp holy

I didn't know he was that Good

[jagged badge]

He was in all three

James Gunn likes casting him

[sick yew]

Nathan Fillion is his name btw

[sick yew]

Wait huh?

[errant tapir]

Oh yeah

[sick yew]

Where was he in the others

[errant tapir]

His voice is calm and soothing

It suits him in his age

[jagged badge]

Actually, I know he was in the first one. Not sure about the second

[ember storm]

Here for a good time, not a long time, like he put it

[errant tapir]

I love him I love cayde

[errant tapir]

[jagged badge]

He was that blue guy in the Kiln and Groot shoved the branches up his nose

[errant tapir]

Oh yeah

[sick yew]

In the prison?

I gotta rewatch the old guardians movies

[errant tapir]

I've noticed there's a difference of Zavala voice in GM 2 weeks ago

Proving grounds

[sick yew]

Correct

[errant tapir]

Sounds like the servant of John Wick hotel

[sick yew]

Unfortunately Lance Reddick passed away last year I believe

[jagged badge]

Yep

[sick yew]

Correct, that was him

[ember storm]

During defiance

[errant tapir]

Why did they change the voice?

[sick yew]

.

[jagged badge]

From D1 to Season of the Deep, Zavala was voiced by Lance Reddick. He passed away, so for Final Shape he was voiced by Keith David

[errant tapir]

GASP

I didn't know

[sick yew]

Keith David you may know from the Halo games and some other stuff

[errant tapir]

So recently his voice changed?

[sick yew]

With Final Shape yes

[errant tapir]

I never played Halo so I am unfamiliar

Damn

[sick yew]

He was in one of the mw games too iirc

[jagged badge]

Keith David is also the president in Rick & Morty, he’s the bad guy in Princess and the Frog I think

[errant tapir]

Soo the zavala I hear now is a recent voice actor

[jagged badge]

And lots of other things

[jagged badge]

In anything Final Shape, yes

[errant tapir]

Ooo president

[jagged badge]

Zavala’s idle dialogue and past dialogue is still Lance

Proving Grounds is still Lance

But Liminality is Keith

[errant tapir]

I give thumbs up to Bungie

They know their voice actors well

Lance has the elegant sound

[sick yew]

Indeed

[errant tapir]

Nathan has the calm and soothing voice

I just wish I play sooner

To get to know cayde

[sick yew]

Well anyway to a bit of a lighter topic
Did you know I am actually canon in Destiny?

As in me Alex Maier

[errant tapir]

I've seen a picture where u get to fistbump cayde

GASP

[jagged badge]

Do you?

[errant tapir]

Which one is you?

[errant tapir]

Yes

[sick yew]

I appear in one of the old loretabs
Salvagers Salvo to be exact

[jagged badge]

[ember storm]

Cayde says I’m his favorite actually and nobody else

[sick yew]

Go read it Tempest

[errant tapir]

DID U DO A VOICE ACTING?

[sick yew]

Lmfao no

[ember storm]

Lore tabs don’t have voice acting

[errant tapir]

Oh....

So it's only text?

[ember storm]

What picture is this anyway

[sick yew]

It's a joke, in that loretab there is a character named Investigator Maier
It's just a funny coincidence

[jagged badge]

I have a friend who is technically actually canon in Destiny lore

[sick yew]

But I will die on the hill that I am canon

[jagged badge]

It’s her Guardian in the Mothkeeper’s lore

[slim girder]

I feel a bit silly for thinking this but this whole time I was thinking sylok was a taken captain and not a knight. I got him confused with keksis the betrayed.
I was so confused when I entered the tomb only to see a giant taken knight

[jagged badge]

Because she came up with the idea for the exotic

[errant tapir]

Sorry

I thought that was a fistbump

Turns out it is in tfs

[sick yew]

[errant tapir]

Us holding our ghost and reviving it

[ember storm]

[errant tapir]

[sick yew]

Ghost dies insta fist bumps cayde

[jagged badge]

You can fist bump Nimbus though

[errant tapir]

[ember storm]

UGLIER THEY ARE

[sick yew]

[errant tapir]

Huh?

[ember storm]

People sorta seem to forget that Caiatl once said that if she captured Calus alive, she’d feed him until his belly burst

[errant tapir]

U will plan your death by dying on a hill?

[ember storm]

I don’t think she was too worked up about his death

[errant tapir]

Caital

Name sounds familiar

Scorn?,

[blazing wasp]

Cabal

[sick yew]

Figure of speech
Just means I am going to hold on to this name coincidence to the end of times

[ember storm]

Yeah she was the one speaking in Proving Grounds

She’s the cabal empress

[errant tapir]

What is the guardian name/exotic?

[jagged badge]

Mothkeeper’s Wraps I believe

[errant tapir]

Oh lol

[jagged badge]

Mothkeeper’s something anyway

[errant tapir]

Ohh yeah the meteor one

I hate her

Spamming the shit out of it

[jagged badge]

That’s not Caiatl

[errant tapir]

[ember storm]

That’s her champion

[jagged badge]

That’s her champion, Ignovun

[errant tapir]

Sorry

[jagged badge]

She selected him to fight for her in the Rite of Proving. We fight on the Vanguard’s behalf

[errant tapir]

D2 has me confused

[jagged badge]

And then we win and we set the terms of our alliance with Caiatl

[errant tapir]

Still unfamiliar with the race

[ember storm]

Well the cabal we fight are technically three species in one empire

Actual cabal are the big rhino things

[jagged badge]

Caiatl won either way because she wanted an alliance no matter what. The whole Rite of Proving shit was just to appease other Cabal who cared about that tradition

[errant tapir]

Scorn is last week GM yes? Moon?

[ember storm]

Psions are their own race that were once enslaved by the empire

[ember storm]

Scorn boss but the opening is hive yes

Heist battleground

[errant tapir]

Oh ik hives

Scarabs

Lightblade knight

Awful awful

[ember storm]

Huh

Also lucent hive are their own faction

[errant tapir]

[ember storm]

Last week was normal hive

No light

[errant tapir]

HUH

Wait wait wait

Lucent hive is lightblade?

[jagged badge]

Yes

[errant tapir]

The one that they can super

[ember storm]

He’s called the lightblade

[errant tapir]

[ember storm]

Normal hive variant is the darkblade

[jagged badge]

The Lucent Brood are Savathûn’s brood. Some of the Lucent Brood are Lightbearers

[ember storm]

With no powers

[errant tapir]

Tis confusing

[ember storm]

It’s literally in the name

[errant tapir]

Hoi don't push me

I'm still learning

[ember storm]

Savathun’s hive have the white armor

[errant tapir]

https://tenor.com/view/bonk-gif-26414884

[jagged badge]

What was last week’s GM?

[ember storm]

They’re the ones with Lightbearers

[errant tapir]

Moon

[ember storm]

Heist battleground moon

[jagged badge]

I mean, that’s mostly Scorn

It starts with Hive but 3/4 of it is Scorn

[errant tapir]

Lightblade are one of em?

[ember storm]

Lightblade is one

Alak Hul

THE lightblade

He’s the boss of the Lightblade strike

[errant tapir]

Lightblade disciple lightblade knight?

[jagged badge]

Who’s the Lightblade we fight in Tomb of Elders?

[errant tapir]

Disciple can't wield the light?

[ember storm]

The ones called Lightblade’s Disciples are in fact underlings of the Lightblade yes

Lightbearers are the ones with actual ghosts

[jagged badge]

I saw the title pop up briefly but they died like immediately

[ember storm]

The rest of the brood are just fed light to satiate their worms

Also so there’s explosive moths

[errant tapir]

Oh yeah

Wait

The ones that can turn to purple

Those are called lightbearer?

[ember storm]

They’re just normal ones

[sick yew]

Yeah there's a(?) Lightblade in ToE

[ember storm]

Alak Hul was the Darkblade and now the Lightblade

Lesser darkblades have always existed

[jagged badge]

Oh right

[ember storm]

It’s not surprising that Savathun got her own brand now

[sick yew]

Wasn't Alak Hul in ToE tho yeah

Just a "normal" one

Similar to the ones that show up in Final Shape I presume

[ember storm]

Those are the Lightbearer knights

They’re the equivalent of titans

They use void subclass

[jagged badge]

Those are the Lightbearer Knights, who are similar to our own Titans

[ember storm]

https://static0.gamerantimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/destiny-2-the-witch-queen-hive-the-lucent-brood.jpg

Titan on left, warlock middle, hunter right

[errant tapir]

Oh.....

[ember storm]

Normal hive are all brown and crusty

[jagged badge]

The Acolyte Lightbearers wield Solar and are similar to Hunters and the Wizards use Arc and ofc are similar to Warlocks

[ember storm]

They don’t have light

That’s what you fought in the moon heist

Those ones are from Xivu

[errant tapir]

I hate those guys