📚lore-discussion

[ember storm]

They were famous for their vex explorations on Venus, but more recently (and relevantly) Maya was one of the founders of Neomuna and subsequently the person who spent the most time in close proximity with the veil in human history

Suffice to say she ended up a tad “fucked up”

So take one of the greatest scientific minds in history, add years of corruption and delusions from the primordial source of all darkness in the universe, and then give her an eldritch artifact capable of bending the most advanced minds in the universe to her will so she can reshape worlds to her own whims

[clear knot]

ohhhh ok

And the ishtar are important for what? What did they research?

[dim minnow]

Vex specifically

during the Golden Age

[ember storm]

They were important

The official group and team have been dead for like thousands of years

[clear knot]

oooh, so that's why maya is using the vex?

[ember storm]

But you can attribute them to some very specific Icarus moments humanity had

Mostly flippantly trying to exploit vex for “the future” or whatever

[clear knot]

oh. because of the vex timey-wimey time travel?

[dim minnow]

because the Echo of Command allows her to fully control Radiolaria

and the utility of Vex simulations is great

[ember storm]

Vex technology just has a lot of applications overall

But like I said, Icarus moments

They kept flying close to the sun over and over

The hubris can still be seen in the way neomuna is run today

[clear knot]

Also, who is Failsafe, why does she have split personalities, and why does she call the guardian "captain"? I've never been to this planet before except for this episode...

[dim minnow]

Failsafe was a Colony Ship AI for the Exodus Black

the ships which you see crashed on Nessus

during the Golden Age, The Exodus Black was pulled into Nessus due to the centaur's irregular orbit (and Vex interference)

[ember storm]

Context wise you’re actually not missing a whole lot

[dim minnow]

due to the damage the ship sustained and the amount of time passed her mind split into a positive and negative side

[ember storm]

Her only actual plot relevance was literally seven years ago during the vanilla story

[dim minnow]

she calls us Captain because we assisted and worked with her during the Red War

[ember storm]

Her last actual recorded voice lines before this episode were just a handful during Forsaken

[dim minnow]

she basically designated us as the new captain of the Exodus Black

[clear knot]

Wait, but my guardian canonically didn't fight in the red war. He was rez'd in the cosmodrome during new light. Is that just plot oversight?

[dim minnow]

in canon no matter what we are that guy

[clear knot]

ooohhhh ok

[ember storm]

New light campaign is the non canon part

Strictly speaking your player character started over ten years ago in Destiny 1

[dim minnow]

the canonicity of the Cosmodrome happenings are weird

[ember storm]

Bungie implemented a sort of veteran/newbie dialogue switch system if your account doesn’t hold any previous progress

[dim minnow]

because the Cosmodrome appearing the way it does ingame shouldn't even be possible

[ember storm]

But the veteran stuff is the canon one

[dim minnow]

yet the Cosmodrome has been the site of recent canon events like certain battlegrounds

[ember storm]

Isnt the big colony ship ball still gone due to wotm

I feel like you can just ignore the various little scratches and dents the devil splicers did

I have nothing to say about the giant chunk they removed from the wall though

[dim minnow]

the entire fucking wall collapsed

yeah

[ember storm]

Something something vanguard mandated quarantine once

Don’t worry about it

[dim minnow]

it doesn't help that we actually went to this version of the Cosmodrome in D2 as well

for the Thunderlord quest

[ember storm]

Your guardian is the same guardian from the destiny 1 campaigns, you canonically don’t meet Shaw Han until very later

Yadda yadda

Did you know ghost has killed before

[clear knot]

ghost has a body count???

[ember storm]

He’s piloted a tank and shot at live targets before

[dim minnow]

Drifter's Ghost bashed herself right through a guy's skull once

[ember storm]

Sloane’s ghost has knives

[dim minnow]

Sloane's ghost has razor blades on her shell and she took otu some Hive with them

[clear knot]

Is she the destiny version of Stabby the Space Roomba?

[dim minnow]

maybe?

[ember storm]

Also did I miss something or like

Did Sloane never get the taken business sorted out and just left

Did they give her back her apartment at least

[dim minnow]

I think she got over it

still partially Taken but no longer under Xivu's influence

[ember storm]

So like she’s just constantly emitting a miasma

[cinder geode]

Was the person the tormentor and subjugator pledged to a disciple of the witness?

[dim minnow]

Yirix is a Psion leading a Psion separatist movement within the Cabal Empire

she allied herself with Calus at some point and she seems to be leading a good portion of the Shadow Legion now

[low gyro]

wait is yirix the psion in vox obscura? why does that name sound familiar

[dim minnow]

yes

Yirix was also involved with the Glykon stuff

specifically, she aided Katabiasis and his team in stealing the ship from the Red Legion

[low gyro]

huh okay

[dim minnow]

she also assassinated a Guardian using using the Light suppression tech

the same one that was used in those two attempts on Zavala's life

[low gyro]

interesting. it's the tech that was derived from the traveler cage right

[cinder geode]

Yeah

[dim minnow]

specifically from a fragment of it that was stored in a Hakke warehouse...

[sick yew]

Katabasis stole a ship for the red legion?

I thought bro was just a homie of Calus and got invited to watch the experiment onboard the Glykon

[trim grotto]

From the Red Legion

It was the Glykon that he stole

[sick yew]

Oh

[trim grotto]

On behalf of Calus

[sick yew]

I thought that was just one of Calus ships

that some of the new loyalists he gained in the system brought with them

[sick yew]

Why even Calus is filthy fucking rich

Should have just bought that shit

Billionares these days I swear

[ember storm]

I mean one look at the glykon should’ve just told you that Calus had zero involvement in its creation

No sign of gold anywhere besides one measly pile in the control room

[sick yew]

Well yeah I thought it was just a loyalist ship of ex-red legion or so

Its not like Calus purely works with Cabal that he cloned pretty sure many of the ones already chilling in the system joind up with him and ofc theyd bring their ships and such

[static herald]

Glint smashed his Hive Guardian to bits

[jagged badge]

Fynch

[blazing wasp]

Solanes ghost has multiple confirmed and unconfirmed kills

[cinder geode]

Fynch not glint, glint is crow's ghost

[static herald]

Oop

Fynch

Absolutely badass

[slim girder]

Calus has all this wealth but to our knowledge it's completely worthless to anyone that isn't cabal. Only person I could see wanting it would be spider just because he likes that stuff.

I'm curious as to where the cabal make all their armaments. Same with the hive.

[sick yew]

Okay bare with me
What race are the red legion

[slim girder]

And where are all the materials coming from? Also what's this money going into? Like what is the red legion going to do with it?
Unless he said something like "make me 100 ships and I'll give you wine" or something

[sick yew]

Gold is a currency just like any other lol

Cabal gold no different

[slim girder]

Maybe so. Idk since torobatl was lost I feel like all the wealth calus has lost all its value aside from it just looking fancy.

[sick yew]

I'd argue the opposite
I has drastically increased due to the total amount being reduced

Also we know it's a currency that Calus has used
Remember uuuuuh

The exotic mission on Mars

Where we stop thar psion broadcast

[slim girder]

Vox obscura yes

[sick yew]

The only way to interpret that room that doesn't involve it being used as a currency is if it was a mere symbolic gesture which would become a lot less impactful if Cabal Gold had no value

Imagine running a terror cell and the big boss drops a little box of goodies to show your job is going well but it's just a bunch of shiny plastic

Also also we collected Cabal Gold back in season of chosen from defeating the battleground bosses
No reason for them to carry it if it were worthless

[slim girder]

Calus tried to win us over with gifts. Maybe his form of paying people is the same. He just gives everyone special gifts from his Leviathan. God knows how much stuff is actually inside that ship.

[sick yew]

Well yeah so I'm saying instead of stealing a Cabal ship he could have just gotten it by either buying it or winning the red legionists over with those kinda of gifts

[brittle dirge]

Who’s stronger? Aksis or Taniks

[tawdry mauve]

aksis

[sick yew]

Me

[sick yew]

Imma be real bro
Every time Aksis kills Taniks the camera is going to zoom out to a different Taniks watching it going "damn, glad that wasn't me" before jumping into the ring

[slim girder]

No it'll just be that meme with moe constantly kicking barney out of the bar because he keeps reappearing.

[devout vine]

Question for the chroniclers....
Do you think Maya is as strong as she claims to be, or could we have mounted our forces and took the Echo when we had the chance?

[trim grotto]

The Witness was the most powerful being we've ever seen. Even a fraction of that power is still incredibly deadly, and we don't know the true extent of Maya's current power. It would be, at best, a gamble.

[brittle dirge]

Out of Taniks and aksis I’d argue aksis was more of an “abomination” than Taniks

[empty fern]

We reaching “situational” levels of power scaling in destiny franchise

[brittle dirge]

Tbf most power scaling before this was inadequate

We were never directly told how strong someone was as some of the strongest characters in the lore weren’t given much screen time or a full explanation of their abilities through lore

I.e. Rhulk we were shown what he’s done but never told his full powers

[fresh zephyr]

Imagine if America was destroyed, and you were still wealthy in dollars.

That's the Cabal I'd say

Bruh it didn't reply to the message

😭

[empty fern]

Paragone

[fresh zephyr]

Bruh

[brittle dirge]

Ok lore people of chat

What is the strongest fallen we’ve fought in lore

I’d say Atraks

[empty fern]

Probably yea

Well

Actually

I say atraks was the most progressive, aksis however did alot of siva nanotechnology stuff

[brittle dirge]

That is true but tbf aksis was the strongest for a while before Atraks

If we take in a gameplay perspective as well he’s durable enough to survive 2 encounters worth

Since we can’t hurt him until 2nd and we need to use SIVA charges

Atraks lacked durability in exchange for raw power and multiple copies

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/aksis-archon-prime-awakening-introducing-entrance-gif-24113910

https://tenor.com/view/taniks-taniks-bottom-text-destiny-destiny2-bottom-text-gif-24461643

[brittle dirge]

I mean actually if I’m looking at this as well Vosik should be on the list as well

Vosik also had 2 encounters

Atraks had 1

But that’s gameplay

[dim minnow]

Hard to really say who was exactly the strongest

Do we count Scorn on this list?

A good argument could be made for Aksis

But Fikrul might take the spot in revenant given how powerful the Echoes are

[trim grotto]

I'd say Fikrul counts. He's just a smelly version of an Eliksni.

[dim minnow]

Rotten crab meat I'd say

[eager trout]

Ok so, exactly which version of Maya is the Conductor?

[empty fern]

Dunno

[trim grotto]

We don't actually know, unless it was revealed this Act, which I haven't yet seen. Could be a simulation, could be the original. Probably isn't one of the 227 since the Conductor knows about Lakshmi and Neomuna, but that's about it.

[brittle dirge]

I always assumed it was the original Maya

[dim minnow]

it does seem to be the one who identifies as "Msund12"

[brittle dirge]

Aka the one from our timeline if you count ours as the original

[dim minnow]

according to Encore secret chest dialogue, it seems like Conductor Maya has been abducting members of the 227

mainly Chioma Esis

[brittle dirge]

Since she uses the same Msund12 and knows most of the stuff we know (which we don’t get to in most timelines because the dark future happens in most or some other calamitous event)

[dim minnow]

and lore from Season Pass items heavily indicates it is the real Maya

[brittle dirge]

I do like the idea of her watching us since the insight terminus

[dim minnow]

Insight Terminus

[brittle dirge]

Ah thank you I get most of those names confused

[dim minnow]

it is worth noting that the real Chioma gave herself over to the Vex and seemingly found and "redeemed" Maya

[brittle dirge]

It’s kinda hard for us to tell so far because they haven’t given us enough information on who’s real and not

[dim minnow]

though I'll have to look over it again just to be sure it isn't some fantasy Maya imprinted into Chioma

[dim minnow]

still though, there is a LOT of indication that it is the real Maya

[brittle dirge]

But I would believe you couldn’t obtain the echo of the witness unless you were in the same thing

[dim minnow]

given the references to the Veil stuff

[brittle dirge]

This is the only timeline we know of where the witness is successfully killed

[dim minnow]

the Echo landed on Nessus and found itself in the Vex network where Maya reached it first

[brittle dirge]

Speculation but I feel like it has to be the real maya

Here’s what I believe

Maya calls herself the “real” Maya

Goes by the same Msund12 as insight terminus

And possesses all knowledge we have in this timeline

[fervent sandal]

did any of the altar of reflection stuff ever come out to be true?

the two truths one lie thing i think

[heady monolith]

i dont remember them exactly but most did come to fruition

theres two more left, but its kinda guaranteed that we are going beyond the solar system at some point

[trim grotto]

Two truths, two lies. Yes. A lot of it requires different perspectives or interpretations, but yes.

We have a somewhat outdated document the Cryptarchy did going over what was shown to be true or false some time ago
Maybe we'll redo it some time

[wheat flower]

I hated that two truths and a lie mini game from imbaru

I had to go youtube it

[analog torrent]

Does this imply that Dredgen Yor being Rezyl Azzir is known to the public in the present day?

[trim grotto]

...Good question.

[sick yew]

I thought that was already public knowledge these days?

[trim grotto]

I'll need to give myself a refresher, but I believe they kept Rezyl's identity a secret for some time.

[dim minnow]

late D1-lore seemed to imply that a lot of Dredgen Yor's history was somewhat embellished

[sick yew]

Who's they? The vanguard?

[dim minnow]

Vanguard

[sick yew]

Ah

[dim minnow]

Eris Morn at least seemed to know about Rezyl being Yor

though she is a member of the Hidden

[sick yew]

Shin probably leaked it himself

Kind of shit I can see him doing

[dim minnow]

so she isn't exactly the best to go off of in terms of whether or not it is common knowledge

[trim grotto]

I don't believe he wanted to. You don't really want Guardians to know that a person considered to be a hero could turn like that.

[dim minnow]

I still think Shin helped the Scorn Barons get that devourer round

[trim grotto]

Rezyl was a well known face

[sick yew]

Shin? Why

[trim grotto]

Where'd that stem from? Convenience aside.

[dim minnow]

the whole thing about him doing to us what Yor did to him

Adversity forcing evolution

Yor was the reason why Shin became a legend

[sick yew]

My guess would be they just got it from the hive
The Mindbender has ties to them

[trim grotto]

Hrrm. I get it, but I don't believe it.

[sick yew]

It was a wedding gift for him

[dim minnow]

Shin himseld said that was the true lesson Yor tried to push

Rezyl sought to vanquish terrors. Yor fertilized the wilds with suffering and despair that a new hope would grow. I was that hope. My fire showed that whispers could be hushed. To many the legend, and the lesson, ends there. They're wrong. Dangerously so. Yor's true lesson—and by extension Rezyl's—wasn't that strength beats strength. His lesson was far more subtle, and infinitely more grand. Adversity leads to evolution. Forces it. And through that crucible we are remade. Better. Stronger. More than we were.

[trim grotto]

No, I know that

[sick yew]

Are we sure Shin isn't just a bit too schizo

Thinking all that shit up to justify his crusade against the Dredgen

[trim grotto]

But I don't believe that Shin was involved, nor that this is why he would be, with the Bullet

[sick yew]

Even tho he really just carries severe trauma from Yor killing his "dad"

[trim grotto]

the fields of murdered lightbearers and mortals alike are pretty good justification

[dim minnow]

dads

[sick yew]

Oh yeah he got both of them

I fogor

[dim minnow]

adopted dad and Jaren Ward

he had like what, three dads

[sick yew]

Yeah

[dim minnow]

birth dad, killed by Fallen

[sick yew]

But the first one the fallen got

[dim minnow]

adopted dad and Jaren Ward, killed by Yor

[sick yew]

I just think bro hasn't digested it all and is now thinking just a bit too hard about why Yor hesitated in their final engagement

[dim minnow]

Yor didn;t even hesitate

Shin just gunned him down during his monologue

[sick yew]

LMFAO

Actually?

[dim minnow]

yes

[sick yew]

That makes it even funnier

[trim grotto]

You sly dog, you-BLAM

[dim minnow]

everyone thought it was some cool standoff when in reality Shin just puts him down dirty style

[sick yew]

Imma be real
Based as hell

I wouldn't have had this a fair fight either

[dim minnow]

kind of interested by the idea that Yor wasn't really a better gunslinger than Jaren

that seems to be the implication

it was just that the Thorn had a certain weight behind it

[sick yew]

Do we even know much about Jarens skills

[dim minnow]

most we got was his famous "Yours, not mine" moment

[sick yew]

Yeah

[trim grotto]

Jaren didn't miss his shots, and Jaren did shoot first.
Yor wasn't faster than Jaren. And Jaren didn't miss. Yor was just more than Jaren. Yor was other. It took fire to burn him down, and Jaren, for all his gifts, was lacking in fire.

Yor just fuckin'
took it

and then blasted Jaren away

[dim minnow]

eh, then again, I once had a theory that Mithrax was Eramis' son

[sick yew]

What

Lmfao

[dim minnow]

this was a long time ago

[trim grotto]

instead of a dovadah, he was a dovakid

[sick yew]

When dovagramps

[dim minnow]

in fact, I had these theories before Mael was a type one civilization

[sick yew]

Damn

[dim minnow]

Mael started back in Dawn if I'm correct

I played D1 since around Dark Below then stopped playing at the end of Y2

then I picked up D2 not long after Curse of Osiris

[sick yew]

I started in worthy lmao

Late ish worthy at that

[trim grotto]

Indeed

I never even knew Destiny existed, 1 or 2, until Forsaken released

[dim minnow]

I was out here duking it out with Warlords while you all were still lying in the Cosmodrome waiting to start your journey

[sick yew]

I knew Destiny existed because of the Gunslingers last stand trailer

Which I thought was pretty dang cool

I just didn't start playing till much later

[dim minnow]

I've seen more Destiny doomposting than you can believe

shit's always a cycle

[sick yew]

Every dlc, season, weekly reset is make or break for the franchise remember that man

[dim minnow]

even now things are still going pretty well

TFS is fire, I think Echoes is actually decent

[sick yew]

Same

But eh complainers gotta complain

[dim minnow]

I really hope Bungie lets us finish Maya off personally

liek use a finisher on her

have us look down on her like this

[sick yew]

That would be pretty baller

[sick yew]

Don't start jjk posting man pls
The new chap is actually so far worse than you could possibly imagine

[dim minnow]

oh I know

[sick yew]

Literally ruined my whole day again when I read the new stuff earlier

[dim minnow]

||Nobara return? or the actual newest one?||

ah

[sick yew]

It gets even worse

[dim minnow]

what about this peak?

[sick yew]

The anime remains the best thing about jjk
And the next season will be the best cause culling games are the peak of jjk

But afterwards idk if even Mappa can salvage that shit

[slim girder]

So something really cool I have just discovered was that the guy who made DnDestiny also made a bestiary for the game. I have been wanting something like this for ages.

Something like the compendium but instead of buffs and all the numbers on that side of the game but instead it's all about the enemies in the game and everything they do.

Or debuffs that enemies can put on the player.

[vivid dew]

Since Exos are also made with vex radiolaria, do they get harmed from getting in contact with it or is that just a game mechanic?

I'm not good with lore but I heard failsafe mention it

[slim girder]

Yes. They can be harmed by it. Exos are only made with a small amount of radiolaria that has been corrupted by darkness which Clovis bray called clarity.

It is still a dangerous substance to anyone but the vex.

[vivid dew]

Alright thank you

[slim girder]

So now that we have the exotic mission. I wonder if we'll ever know what this was back during into the light. Would have thought we'd see it at some point since there's an emblem for the mission with the whisper logo on it.

Might be something later down the line if the mission changes in some way next week.

Surely it would.

[jagged badge]

Whisper logo?

[slim girder]

Yeah. It's in the api but it was an emblem with the white nail exotic perk icon on it.

[cloud gust]

It’s probably some location in the Whisper mission

[uneven canyon]

What are the chances Asher shows up this episode?

He is in the Vex network now

[cinder geode]

When in the story have we gone into the vex net?

[jagged badge]

Asher’s gone

[uneven canyon]

I thought during Defiance he went into the network

[trim grotto]

He dissolved into the network

However, there is one thing I want to look at regarding this
I'll get to it later

[cinder geode]

He went into the network at the end of season of arrivals 3 years ago

[trim grotto]

No no not that

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/scribetrace-shell
Eris and I are referring to this

The one thing that catches my eye though

An irascible trace of a signal sneered at the sincerity of the call but still willed itself to move, reaching up two thin spindles of data in a way that felt somehow familiar.
Is this
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/v-as-a-stranger-give-it-welcome

[slim girder]

It's not. The portal is in the whisper mission but that location that's being shown is somewhere different.

And fun fact it's different from the OG whisper mission which showed the vault of glass

[cloud gust]

Development
I found an article that pointed out where exactly the portal in Whisper was showing you in Encore

[slim girder]

Yeah I saw it today as well

[jagged badge]

Oh?

[cloud gust]

https://t.co/Oe5AnwUrJI

[dim minnow]

keep in mind we aren't supposed to access that part of Encore yet

[jagged badge]

Ah

[trim grotto]

I wonder how many times you've sent messages just saying Ah and Oh like the peanut butter baby

https://tenor.com/view/ah-kid-peanut-butter-baby-peanut-butter-do-you-like-that-yeah-gif-14466576

||pushing Eris's buttons until she convinces the mods to ban me||
||luv u Eris||

[jagged badge]

😭

[dim minnow]

apparently you were able to find that area if you OOBed back in the end of Act 2

but yeah if you try and go to that place in the exotic mission, you'll just die

not even OOB the path to it just leads to death

so yeah, looks like it's something we will get to in the coming weeks

[slim girder]

As I said yesterday I had a feeling that it'd be tied to the exotic mission or something like that. And even when we saw echoes for the first time it made me think the portal in the whisper mission had something to do with it

Like I didn't see much talk about it unlike the first time the portal was discovered

[ember storm]

So theoretically

Since hive ‘armor’ is all part of their biological makeup

Could I just like launch a bunch of poison ivy at them and watch them suffer

[devout nimbus]

Is that the path at the first section

That literally everyone went down until the game made a pointer to the ball thing

[dim minnow]

behind the waterfall?

[devout nimbus]

Uhh don't think so

Sort of off the cliff

There's a bunch of jumps to do

[dim minnow]

that does lead to it

[devout nimbus]

Ah

[dim minnow]

alternatively you can go there through the sphere by going down the first drop instead of jumping over it

[devout nimbus]

Oh I see

I've always gone past it

[dim minnow]

at least we'll know where to go once it's availible

[dull raft]

i love this idea

[small quartz]

What did I walk in on

Why the fuck is the baby made of peanut butter

[trim grotto]

bullying my favourite mod

[small quartz]

Oh

Can I join

[trim grotto]

at your own risk

[small quartz]

Eris smells

[sick yew]

[small quartz]

Like chicken

[trim grotto]

you risked it
time to die

get 'em alex

[sick yew]

Who says I aint gonna just join in?

[small quartz]

Yeaaaaah

[sick yew]

(Im not going to)

[small quartz]

Boo

No longer my favourite mod

[calm granite]

The Great Quiet Thing, the Not-Worm
do we know wtf that is ?

[blazing wasp]

well it aint a worm.

[fervent sandal]

Traveler ever gonna return to the tower

?*

[sick yew]

Unlikely

[sick yew]

She doesnt really like to move a whole lot

Well she used to but after the collapse she stayed in the same place for what couple of hundred to thousand years

Then bailed right before Lightfall to orbit where she has stayed till now

Hang on

Random thought I just had

@dim minnow what if the reason we head out in Frontiers is because the Traveler actually starts travelling again

[slim girder]

Correct me if I'm wrong but we still don't actually even know if the traveler is a she or if it's even the gardener. In my eyes the gardener is a different being like the winnower and the traveler/witness were just extensions of those beings as part of the flower game.

The precursors called the traveler the gardener sure but I don't believe it was THE gardener.

[sick yew]

I think its kinda up in the air still
I personally lean a bit more towards it considering we know that the traveler thinks by both the Microcosm loretab and Micah interpretations from the collectibles

I guess it also relates to whether the dreams people have had were from the Traveler or the Gardener because thats where the "she" initially came from

Could go either way tbh kinda depends what Bungie decides to do with the whole thing

[slim girder]

I think for now that story is going to be on the backburner for a while now that we have saved the traveler and it's beginning to heal.
Looks like now bungie wants to focus on new stories with the episodes and creating something new for destiny.

I think frontiers will be the start of that

[jagged badge]

The only reason it has the name Gardener is because it was called that. Why would it not be the Gardener when that’s where the name originated?

[sick yew]

Ah Tempest good youre here

Are the Travelers thoughts the Gardeners thoughts?

Or do you think theyre seperate

[jagged badge]

I mean, we know that the Witness’ people gave the Traveler the name Gardener, and then the Witness gave us the propaganda book of Unveiling

[sick yew]

Yeah but the Gardener/Traveler (I dont remember which one) being considered feminine stems from older loretabs no?

Alpha Lupi or sum

[jagged badge]

Well. In Unveiling the Gardener is referred to with they/them iirc. In Mk. 44 Stand Asides the Gardener is referred to with she/her

And yeah it’s the Alpha Lupi stuff where visions from the Traveler present itself in the form of a female wolf

[sick yew]

The Gardener or the Traveler?

In mk44s

[jagged badge]

The Gardener is hard to bother; she is constantly amidst her weeds, kneeling in the tangent dust, gloves covered in a mix of distant soils and metallic saps. She is listening to the music of the insects amidst the flowers, the unguent as it begins to drip from the ferns, the slight scratch of the Worm beneath, and not to you, and certainly not to your cries for help.

[sick yew]

Im still unsure whether we can be positive that they are seperate or the same "voice"

Ah

[sick yew]

So how we looking on that front these days

[jagged badge]

I don’t think there’s anything to suggest they’re different

The Gardener is the name the Witness’ people gave the Traveler. That’s the only reason it’s called that in Unveiling and such

[slim girder]

Savathun said "light and dark, witness and traveler, always pitted against each other in some grand game" that to me says that the traveler and witness are both pieces that greater beings have placed.

We have had instances where there were multiple "gardeners" i forgot which lore book exactly but it said "I was once a gardener, no not that gardener, don't be cheeky"

[jagged badge]

Not that Gardener. Don't be cheeky.

No, I grew flowers. I tilled soil. I planted seeds and bulbs and rootstock. I gave them water and nutrients. I dug out the weeds and shooed off the pests.```

This is one of the Witness’ people

It is initially using “gardener” in the literal meaning of the word

And then clarify that they don’t mean capital G ‘the Gardener’

So that’s not evidence of multiple “Gardeners”. It’s just a word being used for its definition

[slim girder]

This lore really confuses me sometimes tbh. I get what you're saying though. As in the person talking was a gardener as in the actual meaning of the word but their name wasn't the Gardener or anything.

[empty fern]

In all honesty, the witness is actually just (what other enemy fused together to make bigger enemy?)

[jagged badge]

Well, yeah, I don’t think that’s confusing

It’s like if John Williams said “I’m a conductor. No, not that Conductor” about Maya Sundaresh

It’s just his job, not his name/title

It’s one of the reasons I strive to always capitalise the proper nouns when discussing them to avoid this kind of confusion

The Gardener and a gardener are different. The Light and light are not the same

[slim girder]

I tend to gloss over stuff like that sometimes. I need to pay more attention to the grammar in lore more.

[small quartz]

But THE light and light function similarly

The Light also works as a wave

[jagged badge]

Not the point

[slim girder]

Speaking of capitalisation though we have 4 names for the traveler now.
Traveler for humanity
Sky for hive (excluding savathun)
Great machine for eliksni.
Gardener for the precursors.

[small quartz]

Ball

[jagged badge]

Mhm. Different peoples/cultures call it different things

Granted, the Hive got “the Sky” from the Witness

[slim girder]

True

[small quartz]

But the witness just calls it the traveler

[slim girder]

The witness doesn't call it anything tbf. They just speak to it on a personal level

It hates it with every fibre of its being

[small quartz]

Hmm

[sick yew]

As if the hive didnt get basically everything from the Witness (or worm gods)

[jagged badge]

The Witness calls it that because it is speaking to us

It often specifically says “your Traveler”

[trim grotto]

Well, I don't, personally. But I've been slow on the research this Episode. I'm planning to get into a debate with the Cryptarchy about it later.

[sick yew]

Oh yeah so I did Encore on expert yesterday for those catalyst quests and I was wondering
Some of these voicelines were indeed going back to MSund12 and stuff and how there seem to be a crap ton of Mayas (and also Chiomas?) at some point

I assume they worked together within the Vex network?

[slim girder]

Yes

All those copies even spoke to each other

[sick yew]

Thats shits like that Mario and Luigi game

With the bunch of Luigis working in unity

[ember storm]

Guardian when faced with the Maya hammer

https://tenor.com/view/jrpg-mario-and-luigi-dream-team-bros-attack-mario-gif-24143486

[blazing wasp]

The Guardian when Maya pulls out a mirror

https://tenor.com/view/look-up-scared-willem-dafoe-gif-17761333

[desert mountain]

stasis is icd

Ice

[fast tapir]

an arguement as old as time itself

[slim girder]

You know what we could do to stop Maya? Grab clovis from Europa and send him into the network. Then him and Maya can just annoy the crap out of each other in the network for all eternity while the vex study them.

[smoky grail]

Was Lakshmi a human before or am I tripping?

[jagged badge]

Nah

Lakshmi was an Exo created through Maya’s experiments with the Veil. She isn’t exactly Maya but

[smoky grail]

Then who's this...?

[slim girder]

The original maya

Lakshmi is a mental imprint of maya. An exo that has her memories.

[smoky grail]

THAT WAS HER?!!

[slim girder]

Yes. Maya and chioma were human.

[smoky grail]

Chioma??

[slim girder]

Mayas wife.

[smoky grail]

O-oh? She was lesbian?

[slim girder]

Yes

They both studied the veil but unfortunately Maya grew obsessive

[smoky grail]

https://tenor.com/view/pikachu-shocked-face-stunned-pokemon-shocked-not-shocked-omg-gif-24112152

[slim girder]

And now Maya has done some truly heinous things to copies of chioma in the vex network in pursuit of this golden age she wants

[smoky grail]

Not that I'm complaining (unlike some...)

[smoky grail]

Oooof.... Just like a certain person, tho the latter was narcisist

[desert mountain]

But its true

[ember storm]

So confident

[smoky grail]

But even that, some players will be punching the air for that... Behaving like kidz

[blazing wasp]

Should be noted that there's a lot of LGBTQ in d2

This is far, far from the only example

Let alone the only lesbian.

[jagged badge]

I’ve even got a list of ‘em all!

[smoky grail]

I was aware with Osiris X Saint-14. But still, players dislike anything progressive now, I've gone off topic my bad

[blazing wasp]

Not off topic

It's lore

[jagged badge]

Saint-14
Osiris
Lord Shaxx
Devrim Kay
Marc
Suraya Hawthorne
Mara Sov
Sjur Eido
Eramis
Athrys
Ana Bray
Camrin Dumuzi
Elisabeth Bray
Ikora Rey
Drifter
Eriana-3
Wei Ning
Micah-10
Hector Abram
Wesley Abram
Maya Sundaresh
Chioma Esi
Chalco Yong
Amrita Vae
Kazia
Mist-1
Orewing
Nimbus
Stargazer
Quinn Laghari
Paolo
Adinew
Loe
Oryx

These are characters both confirmed and hinted to be LGBTQ+

[smoky grail]

All of these?! Even Devrim?

[slim girder]

Yes

[smoky grail]

And Oryx?!!

[blazing wasp]

I don't see eris in there, didn't she have a crush on wei ning or eriana? Don't recall which

[slim girder]

Oryx was originally female

[jagged badge]

Devrim has a husband Marc

[jagged badge]

Did she?

[blazing wasp]

Which is really fucking funny as a sniper.

[blazing wasp]

I think? Unsure.

Very rusty on that

Will attempt to refresh my memory later

[smoky grail]

Wait what?!

[blazing wasp]

But yeah D2 has a lot of LGBTQ representation

Good representation too!

Because it's portrayed as normal, because, well, it is!

It's not like "holy shit they're x????" And the writers make that the characters entire personality

[smoky grail]

Even that the... Uhhh... Goobers hates it

[slim girder]

Before he became oryx he was aurash.

[jagged badge]

The three Hive siblings started as sisters. Aurash, Sathona and Xi Ro. When they became Hive, Aurash took the King morph and became Auryx

[blazing wasp]

Such bigotry has long been documented as being associated with poor intelligence

Both general and social intelligence

[smoky grail]

Aurash? Why that sounds like Ashrah?

[versed orbit]

oryx ate da king morph and became male

[smoky grail]

Guess I just learned something new now

[versed orbit]

aurash*

[ember storm]

Cause they share letters probably

[smoky grail]

That could be it

And Suraya Hawthorne ? Didn't knew she was hinted as being a LGBT character

[slim girder]

Nimbus and stargazer are interesting considering they are cloudstriders. I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to love or be like that but for beings that only live 10 years and with there only being 2 cloudstriders at a time I believe how would that work?

[ember storm]

It’s not like they’re born and die in ten years

[slim girder]

True

[ember storm]

Undergoing the procedure to become a cloudstrider just cuts remaining time down to ten

The life you live beforehand is completely unrelated

[jagged badge]

That is one of the more looser hints that I honestly don’t remember the evidence for tbh

Some of this list was compiled from suggestions I got from people

Well, most the list really

[smoky grail]

Oh, so it's just hearsay

[jagged badge]

I don’t know what you mean by this

But they’re on there because they’re non-binary

[smoky grail]

As for Ana, wasn't surprising since there was a comic page about her relationship (don't know if it was a fanfic or not)

[ember storm]

It’s an official comic

There was like four of them I think

[smoky grail]

Alright then

[jagged badge]

It’s based on lore tabs and such. Very few of the characters are explicitly confirmed as a specific sexuality. Only like 4-5 of them there? Others are ones where they are depicted to be in queer relationships but not explicitly said as whatever sexuality. And then others are things that are hinted or you can extrapolate info to suggest it

Like Shaxx could be hinted to be panromantic and poly based on The Vow lore

[jagged badge]

Worth noting Camrin was also mentioned in dialogue in Season of the Seraph

[smoky grail]

Aka Twitter...

[smoky grail]

Wasn't that season first launched in 2020? Or 2021?

[jagged badge]

2022

It was Witch Queen’s last season

[smoky grail]

Nvm, I mistook it for Season of the Worthy

[jagged badge]

Ahh gotcha

[smoky grail]

Also Mara Sov's was because of Petra Venj, right?

[ember storm]

No

Hey did you know about doghives

[smoky grail]

Doghives?

[smoky grail]

Then what is it?

[low gyro]

isn't that maya sundaresh

[ember storm]

Mara’s partner was Sjur Eido

Petra is basically just an intern

[fast tapir]

looks like a regular ass guardian from character creation

[dim minnow]

just comparing the two

this image is the first official Maya Sundaresh design we had

[low gyro]

lmao you're not wrong

[smoky grail]

One of the sisters who was corrupted?

[smoky grail]

Bruh it do!

[ember storm]

No?

[blazing wasp]

You're thinking of shuro chi

[smoky grail]

Wow, my brain... I'm slow as squat!

[blazing wasp]

Sjur eido was the owner of the wishender, you see a statue of her in the shattered throne

[smoky grail]

Damnit, why do I always confuse myself...

[smoky grail]

Ohhh, gotcha

[empty fern]

Wonder if we’ll get more content on the human to exo transition

[ember storm]

drink the milk

[empty fern]

No

[blazing wasp]

Coward

[fast tapir]

c'mon just drink it

its not that bad

[slim girder]

Kabrs favourite drink

[desert mountain]

Petra venj

[cursive cobalt]

Ok so we have graviton forefit and graviton lance, who is graviton?

[jagged badge]

It’s a word

[cursive cobalt]

awww

[sick yew]

I know this is sorta a powerscale question that cant easily be answered
But in your own opinions
Is Rhulk or Nezzy stronger
Im specifically referring to Nezarec the way we encounter him infused with light in Root of Nightmares

[ember storm]

Nezarec because he has the dad bod

Rhulk is just a redditor with his incredibly long head up his ass

[dim minnow]

just pointing this out, Rhulk wasn't giving it his all until the end when he realized he could actually lose

Nezarec was actively trying to take us down the whole time

also, it is worth noting that Nezarec's power does turn against him

he isn't exactly wielding Light and Dark harmoniously

[sick yew]

He was trying to pull Prismatic a year early but didnt know how ye?

So its safe to say that Nezzy wasnt exactly at the peak of his potential when we faced him
I mean makes sense bro literally just got properly revived once we approach his arena

[dim minnow]

he just kind of stumbles upon it as he starts regenerating throughout the raid

I do wonder what would have happened if he head more time to develop

he was capable of constantly sending out devastating resonance shockwaves

[sick yew]

True but that could also be a case of gameplay vs lore no?

[dim minnow]

eh, not like we have much lore to it

and gameplay has often found itself in the lore

[ember storm]

I’m just saying Rhulk has zero defense against nezarec just breaking one of his femurs

[dim minnow]

Rhulk can fly

[ember storm]

But does he have cool jellyfish style wings

[tough kettle]

I had no clue there were so many! I only knew of saint 14, osiris, eramis, devrim, mara sov, sjur eido,drifter, micah 10, maya sundaresh, chioma esi, nimbus, and oryx being lgbt or implied O_O

Its cool that theres so many

Saint and osiris are so cute together :3

[jagged badge]

Fr

[tough kettle]

Since there isnt an explicitly gay transmasc character.. (yeah i am just projecting...) my guardian dudes are gay and transmasc.. this freaking peaks...

[sick yew]

I wouldnt say Oryx is "implied" more just straight up there

Dude was offered godlike power by the worms and decided hed become a man

I dont think theres ever really any lore on the why but eh its still there

[tough kettle]

i didnt say he was implied

i fully believe oryx is trans

[sick yew]

Missed the "or"

oh well

[ember storm]

Eh well

As an actual trans person (wowoe)

Oryx shows literally zero signs of actually being trans

[sick yew]

I mean one could assume such a thing is different for an alien race? Idk

[ember storm]

It’s more of just a sexual dimorphism thing because of hive biology

[ember storm]

If it were something where Aurash had actually any genuine care or aspiration for taking the king morph beyond saving the krill, maybe

But it was literally just “you need to be king so you will be king”

And it was just accepted

So Oryx would just be gender fluid at that point

[jagged badge]

Yeah tbh it’s more just a funny thing to say Oryx is trans

But realistically it’s not a 1:1 comparison at all

[sick yew]

Absolutely

[tough kettle]

no he is still male thats not a good point

i am a trans guy and i think oryx is trans... its kinda hashtag true... takes one to know one yknow...

[ember storm]

Good for you but it’s not an actual point of the character

Shockingly I wouldn’t call the genocidal mass-slaver as good lgbt rep

[tough kettle]

that much is obvious

[ember storm]

Maya is good representation because she embodies a sorely-missed aspect of any relationship

[sick yew]

I mean whether the rep is good or bad doesnt have to be connected whether the character in question is good or evil no?

[ember storm]

Divorce

[tough kettle]

but im grasping at straws here, he's the only character from any game i like that could be considered "transmasc" im just desperate at this point theres no freaking transmasc rep 😭

[ember storm]

That’s the point I’m making

Becoming the king was literally just about that

Getting power

Power that was used solely to cause death and destruction

Aurash was not struggling with identity

[sick yew]

Then either you wwrote your message in an odd way or I misread it because it kinda sounded like you were basing the question of good/bad rep on the characters position as a villain

[ember storm]

The worm gods granted the sisters power and the process just involved a change from a female being to a male one

Aurash did not care about it one way or the other

[tough kettle]

dont be a fun hater...

[ember storm]

This is lore chat, fun is never allowed

[sick yew]

I mean thats just Waltz interpretation of the lore
You may have your own

[ember storm]

You leave all your whims at the door and will suffer another seven years of winnower discourse

[tough kettle]

hell nah

[plain vessel]

Can I ask about encore lore here

Because

Exo Prototype 314

I can’t tell but I genuinely think it’s him but like what it it’s not

[ember storm]

Who

[plain vessel]

Rasputins shell

Its description is listed as an ||Exo who gained sentience and was interrogated by maya||

I know it’s stupid since he’s dead

But

[ember storm]

Rasputin wasn’t an exo who gained sentience

[plain vessel]

Wait

Yeah

[ember storm]

Also I haven’t played act 3 at all so I have no idea what you’re talking about

[plain vessel]

It’s like step 8

[ember storm]

Exos are just meant to be body replacements for humans

There’s only 2 known exos who were totally “artificial”

[plain vessel]

Yeah, my bad, forgot most of Rasputins lore after seraph, but basically It’s an Exo shell that coincidentally like, has one red eye and the same white, basic shell and model of Rasputin in seraph

[ember storm]

Rasputin doesn’t really count, in seraph he was still just a giant computer system connected to an exo shaped speaking apparatus

[ember storm]

All exos have that by default

[plain vessel]

Wait

Damn

[ember storm]

The dead Europa exos are white

[plain vessel]

😭

God I need to look back over the lore again

[ember storm]

Just look at the bodies

They’re everywhere

[plain vessel]

Yeah fair

Was coping so hard for Rasputin I thought he was referenced again

[ember storm]

Maya had nothing to do with Rasputin

[plain vessel]

Yeah, now I realize, But still, a new Exo who gained was labeled to have gained consciousness is still pretty interesting,

[ember storm]

I still don’t have context

But generally speaking

Exos are literally designed to run off a consciousness

[plain vessel]

I did a mission for failsafe and it’s one of the items given by her, but this model just randomly states it gained consciousness, which if weird If they all are based off one

Either this one seemed to maybe wake up, I have no idea

They gave us hardly anything

[ember storm]

Well isn’t all the Maya stuff her trying to mix it with vex parts

Vex are always sentient

[plain vessel]

Good point

I’ll do some more diving into act 3 and find more on the story

See if we get any clarification to anything else

Cya, thanks for the info

[small quartz]

Do guardians need to work out

[trim grotto]

A good question! But I honestly don't know if there's an answer to that.

[small quartz]

Does doing missions provide them with enough of a “workout”

The cardio is very intensive

[eager trout]

Up until the part where she experimented with her friends' corpses, [whatever happened to her between that and Echoes], ||and trying to force another Final Shape on humanity to "save" them.||

[eager trout]

Yx the Ken Ing?

[eager trout]

I saw someone theorize that she's all her simulations merged into one, or at least that she's the OG but has the memories of all of them, and that she's trying to find her "perfect" Chioma but since her idea of the "perfect" Chioma comes from the combination of each of her versions' Chioma, she can't find her because she doesn't exist.

[desert mountain]

Stasis is ice

[trim grotto]

Funny.

[desert mountain]

Its true

Squeal and squall literally has the qualities of ice

[trim grotto]

Silence and Squall.

[trim grotto]

The Stasis crystals aren't water ice. Obvious enough, but I thought I'd get it out of the way. The extraordinary property of Stasis is its ability to create ordered structures from chaos—it doesn't care what kind of matter is available; it just sucks entropy out of the system until it's got a crystal. The crystal's not exactly chemical. The normal electromagnetic interactions between atoms are suppressed in favor of something weirder. A bit like spinmetal. - Excerpt from an analysis file by Cowlick, the Ghost of the Hidden member, Truce.

[desert mountain]

propaganda

[jagged badge]

If you’re just here to troll, don’t

[fast tapir]

if you do you will be smited

[cloud gust]

So is Stasis cold or no

[jagged badge]

It is

[cloud gust]

Ah ok

[trim grotto]

answer thief

gonna report you to da mods

[cloud gust]

I knew Stasis wasn’t necessarily “ice” but the physical manifestation of chaos removed

[jagged badge]

The crystal also soaks up incident motion and energy, which it converts into mechanical work: this is how these crystals form so rapidly, and why they're surrounded by such intense cold.

[jagged badge]

Go on then

[trim grotto]

hey eris this big ol' meanie called eris stole my answer

[jagged badge]

I’ll look into it, thanks for the report

We take matters like this very seriously

[trim grotto]

thanks i knew you wouldn't let me down, the mod team here is very reliable

[ember storm]

Hey Eris there’s some weird activity on the moon could you take a look for me

Preferably with a team of six

[eager trout]

Ah yes, the physical manifestation of lack of something

[small quartz]

We literally throw Black Holes

lol

those are the literal lack of mass

[eager trout]

No, they're the concentration of infinite mass on a single point

[trim grotto]

yeah they're the opposite of a lack of mass

[small quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/plink-wide-cat-plink-cat-meow-gif-27396868

Nuhuh

[trim grotto]

[small quartz]

@trim grotto would you become an Eliksni or an Exo

[trim grotto]

robo boy

[ember storm]

Exo

I would 100% pull a Micah if I had the choice

[trim grotto]

i only ever choose two things in a game with that sort of choice
human or robot
and only if it is a robot that is something like an Exo

[ember storm]

Anything too human looking is a no from me

But I’d be happy with a V1 ultrakill

[slim girder]

The reality of being an exo doesn't sound like a nice existence imo.

[ember storm]

Why not

You still get to eat, sleep, drink, feel

Also

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2gay-kiss-gif-27172921

[slim girder]

Yeah but don't exos have terrible nightmares? And even though you do all that stuff it's because you're programed to feel it if that makes sense. Not to mention resets you might need as an exo. So far the lowest amount of resets we've seen on an exo is Lakshmi 2.

Highest is banshee 44

[ember storm]

Banshee was literally just dying over and over because he threw himself at vex armies with only a sword

You’re not “programmed” to feel

It is your brain

All the feelings are real

Exo bodies are built to accommodate

[trim grotto]

2625

[slim girder]

Huh? An exo has had that many resets?

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/legacy
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/legacy-pt-2

yes

[ember storm]

It’s not a real living situation where the exo was just living and having to be reset due to faults

It was a one of a kind horrible tragedy that kept them in a loop of getting shut down and rebooted over and over again

Banshee is the highest “standard” situation we have (which still wasn’t exactly normal)

Also isn’t everyone occasionally plagued with nightmares

I think I could live with seeing a big weird tower in my dreams

Also I don’t think the hypothetical is really accounting for any actual exomind scan upload process

It’s more of just a “would you rather live in a space alien body or a robot body”

[slim girder]

You have to kill everyone you have met to reach it though. And about the reboots the lore makes it sound like a very bad thing to happen and given that a lot of the exos we know for the most part have high numbers it seems pretty common.
Also when I say high I'd consider 5+ reboots high.

[tough kettle]

Wow! Even as an exo you can still have gay kiss! I approve!

[eager trout]

Except Exos don't have lips

[empty fern]

For now

[ember storm]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/destinypedia/images/e/ee/Lakshmi-2.png/revision/latest?cb=20140623045305

https://imageio.forbes.com/blogs-images/insertcoin/files/2018/06/cayde-destiny.jpg?format=jpg&height=600&width=1200&fit=bounds

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-2-final-shape-cayde-exo-cayde-6-gif-18051337515822774769

[little mist]

This expacs way of storytelling feels really bad. Our character isn't really integrated at all, more like a bystander.

Feels like I'm at a dinner-and-a-play type deal where the actors take a break every time I need to eat a meal course and then they come back to dramatically argue with eachother about how the seasoned potatoes of that last course gave them an existential crisis while pretending I'm not there.

[slim girder]

Aren't games where the player makes a character often like this? I don't think I've ever seen a story done well with a player made character unless it's designed around that feature and has a ton of choices to make.

[jagged badge]

Final Shape? Or do you mean the episode?

[empty fern]

(The world may never know)

[eager trout]

@ember storm Exos don't have lips good enough for kissing

Or for just about any movement

[trim grotto]

Did'ja see the Conductor's mouth movements? Seems pretty malleable.

[eager trout]

I'm not even playing Destiny anymore

So no, I didn't

Also, that only seems to be female Exos for the most part (or maybe just Lakshmi/The Conductor/Maya because she's a special case)

Anyways, can Vex (specifically the ones from Echoes that are implied to have gained individuality) time travel to the past?

[dim minnow]

Vex don't really time travel

it's moreso they use very detailed simulations

[eager trout]

Those two things have nothing to do with each other and are not interchangeable

What is that supposed to mean?

[eager trout]

How does that make it seem like they time travel?

[dim minnow]

think of how we rescued Saint-14 from the Infinite Forest

[eager trout]

shrug

[dim minnow]

we went through the Corridors of time to reach a simulation to rescue Saint who took the place of the Saint who died

[eager trout]

So a doppelganger?

[dim minnow]

apparently the Saint we now have has had somewhat different experiences than the other

[eager trout]

So this Saint is...?

What?

A simulated Saint?

[dim minnow]

hmmm

well theoretically, but Vex can't simulate Light

[eager trout]

The Saint from the simulation?

[dim minnow]

still don't quite fully grasp it myself

and I need a refresher on how exactly Vex simulations work

but the Vex are essentially manipulating things to try and make the real world match their simulations

oh yeah

it also plays into how the Vex percieve time as well

[trim grotto]

hold up buttercup

[dim minnow]

ok, so imagin you read a Choose Your Own Adventure book

[eager trout]

From what I understand, what you're saying is the Saint we rescued is not the original Saint, but the one inside the Vex simulation that is mostly the same as real life

And we somehow brought him out into the real world?

[trim grotto]

hold your horses

grasp them firmly

give me a sec

[dim minnow]

reading it normally is like how we percieve time

reading it like an actual book is how the Vex percieve time

[trim grotto]

When we went back in time via the Sundial/Corridors of Time, instead of traveling back to our past, we travelled back to a past. But thanks to the Sundial, that timeline was irrevocably woven into ours. The end result is... if you visualise the timelines as two parallel lines, the end result is like a tuning fork. Pretend that image is upside down.

The Saint-14 we saved was a very, very similar version of the original Saint-14 of our timeline.

[dim minnow]

but some minor differences in how things went

[eager trout]

So basically the Endgame explanation of time travel

So can Vex time travel or not?

[trim grotto]

Yesn't
They do, but the process isn't clear, and it's obvious that they cannot simply time travel to fix any problem before it happens

[dim minnow]

the Vex also percieve time differently than us

again, like I said, reading a cyoa book like it was a normal book

[eager trout]

So couldn't they just go back to the previous page?

[dim minnow]

even if they could, the Vex are capable of being beaten

and the fact they can't simulate paracusality gets in the way of things

[eager trout]

So a Vex from Echoes that (assumedly) gained individuality can travel back in time to a previous point in the Destiny story just to observe?

[dim minnow]

they use simulations to figure out how to turn things in their favor then they try and bring those simulations into reality

[trim grotto]

I couldn't quite say for sure. But as a recent reference...
Chioma Esi: Six weeks ago, our settlement came under attack by an intrusion of Vex forces. It was a test of our defenses for a larger incursion. Yesterday, scouts discovered temporarily realigned architecture just outside the stronghold limits. The Vex had retroactively inserted themselves into Neptune's history... just like they did on Venus. But unlike Venus, something stopped them short of our habitat. They had to fight their way in. I think it's the Veil. Something about the paracausal nature of the Veil is preventing their temporal excursions.

[graceful mist]

Real question, but if Eramis had shot the traveler with the warsats at the end of Season of the Seraph, then how would the witness complete the final shape? Like I know the Witnesses goal changes a lot with rushed writing and all, but like if Eramis (a potential disciple) blew the Traveler up, and the Witness needs said traveler to fulfill the final shape, then I don't think that's going to work.

[dim minnow]

so paracausality does directly affect their ability to act properly

and it is stated that Vex rewrite history to teleport

[eager trout]

And what did they do on Venus?

[dim minnow]

there are ancient ruins on Venus

and the Vault of Glass

[eager trout]

The Vex be like: "should we deconstruct ourselves on a molecular level and then reconstruct at another point in space? Nah, let's just rewrite the timeline so that we were already there"

[eager trout]

Vex ruins?

[trim grotto]

Sure. Citadel, Vault of Glass, so on.

[dim minnow]

any Vex architecture you see on Venus looks as if it was there for a long time

[eager trout]

Ruins as in they purposefuly made them look like ruins, or just that they deteriorated over time?

[slim girder]

The warsats wouldn't have destroyed the traveler. The protocol eramis activated is supposed to "wound" the traveler to stop it from leaving. That was the intent

[dim minnow]

the latter I'd guess

[trim grotto]

I would assume it wasn't going to be utterly destroyed, but badly wounded. Like the Abhorrent Imperative would have done.

[eager trout]

Ok

[slim girder]

I was about to say twilight exigent but that wasn't the right protocol lol

[eager trout]

Did Clovis really think anything he could do would harm the Traveler?

[dim minnow]

he thinks we can just blow up the moon

and then create something to substitute it

[eager trout]

I mean, technically we can with enough firepower

[dim minnow]

but do we have that firepower?

[eager trout]

The typical "let me destroy this very useful thing someone else made because it wasn't my idea and I want to make my own"

[slim girder]

I don't believe so. Probably enough to nuke a place but not destroy a moon or planet

[eager trout]

Like taking away trees from cities to replace them with tanks of plankton that create oxygen

Which happened already in some places, apparently

[slim girder]

Bray mentality

[ember storm]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2gay-kiss-gif-27172921

Evidence suggests the contrary

[tough kettle]

i dont know how many times ive seen this but im not complaining

[fast tapir]

🤨

[jagged badge]

It’s kinda sweet but sad to think that Exo kissing is more of a gesture than something they can physically do

[fast tapir]

[jagged badge]

What?

[fast tapir]

i never even thought of that

and now i cant forget about it

[analog torrent]

Other than Banshee (idk if he’s met Elsie after 43->44) and Cayde, are there any tabs about people meeting Exos that knew at least one of their past resets?

There’s David and Morgan-2 but I don’t know if Morgan’s been reset because she seems to know him (last days on kraken mare)

[trim grotto]

Well, there's Hari-5. She was a Future War Cult researcher, both as Hari-4 and 5.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/legacys-oath-cloak

Gonzalez, Hari-4, and Mwangi. "Anomalies in dark matter detections as a function of topological T-genic complexities in orbital dynamics." Journal of Post-Collapse Cosmological Recovery, Vol. 99 #1014
Gonzalez, Hari-5 and Mwangi. "Cold dark matter anisotropy as a non-teleonomic result of scale variant coupling between mass and dark stellar wind." Journal of Post-Collapse Cosmological Recovery, Vol. 99 #1015 Annex 1
Lakshmi-2 and Hari-5. "Do cognitive insight excursions cause spontaneous Exo reset syndrome? A case study." Unpublished archive material, personal collection.

[dim minnow]

You know, the focus this episode put on Saint and Osiris's relationship does make aot more sense when you think about how it is meant to act as a foil for Maya and Chioma's relationship

[wide pecan]

Hi can I ask if failsafe has been infiltrated? I read an excerpt of failsafe hooking up a vex head to herself and trying to gain access to what it knows but it started to download a virus on her. Will this come onto play later in the episode ?

[dim minnow]

Don't recall the entry, do you have it?

She might have protected herself from it

[wide pecan]

I'm at work right now but it's from the armor from failsafe

[dim minnow]

Yeah, I'll have to check on it later

She'll probably be fine though

[wide pecan]

Untethered edge strides

[dim minnow]

You mean strides?

[wide pecan]

Yes😭

[dim minnow]

Ok so it seems like she had the head disconnected before anything bad can happen

The entry just seems to show how dangerous the Choral vex can be

[ember storm]

Keep in mind failsafe was once subjugated by the vex and “locked in” for an insurmountable length due to some kind of time dilation within the network

If she had any possible points of “infection” it would’ve been that

[wide pecan]

Oh thank goodness. 🥹

[dim minnow]

If it was something actually bad then she probably wouldn't be trying to keep the incident secret

[cinder geode]

Why were there ahamkara bones in the tower in the first place?

[ember storm]

Dunno what you’re referencing here

But the old tower was completely abandoned after the red legion hit

Guardians lost quite a bit there

[cinder geode]

The tool tip for ascension

[dim minnow]

Ascension, and where is that again?

[cinder geode]

Arc hunter

[dim minnow]

An Arc hunter aspect?

[cinder geode]

Yes, they sometimes have some lore attached to them

And so I'm wo during why ahamkara bones were in the tower in the first place

[dim minnow]

This is a new one right?

The one that came in TFS?

[cinder geode]

Yes

[dim minnow]

If so, then it could be referring to the Tower in the Pale Heart

[quiet turret]

and also people just like, have ahamkara bones sometimes

shaxx has the big skull mounted somewhere

[dim minnow]

Given that the new Light subclass stuff comes from thePale Heart, the new aspects should originate there as well

[green cobalt]

the conductor has uncanny lip facsimiles

[eager trout]

Probably some Guardian kept them there

[trim grotto]

Oh that's easy
Guardians wear them all the time, Shaxx has a skull at his station, they've ended up in markets accidentally, and they were kept in the various parts of the Tower for study and containment.

For things meant to be contained or destroyed they sure ended up spread out and widespread

[slim girder]

Ahamkara bones are basically like the new "thorns" that guardians make in pursuit of more power.
I don't think there'll ever be a way to contain them.

So guardians just wear them and if that grants then power to fight threats then there doesn't seem to be any issues.

[trim grotto]

Well, I don't know if I'd quite agree with that. They're not entirely harmless.

[slim girder]

Oh yeah they're absolutely still dangerous I don't disagree with that. But I see them as more like a necessary evil. Like how we use darkness now provided we have a strong enough will.

It was a wish that got us to the witness afterall

[arctic iron]

nah

plot armour got us to the witness

[sick yew]

Plot armor

My brother in light we can literally come back from the dead

[arctic iron]

witness couldve and shouldve sliced us on the spot

[sick yew]

Could they really tho?

I mean its not like they used the ability at all inside the pale heart

[trim grotto]

Not whilst it was inside the Pale Heart. It was distracted, its power diverted elsewhere. Busy dissecting our favourite Big Orb™️.

[arctic iron]

they ran out of doritos

[sick yew]

ong

[jagged badge]

I am Ong, the Uhvatar

[sick yew]

Fr'Ong, Bane of GenZ

[slim girder]

Actually speaking of this, in lightfall we saw pyramids enter the pale heart but when we got there, not a single one was seen. Wonder what happened to them.

[sick yew]

Salvations Edge

Those environments are pyramids reshaped

[slim girder]

That's what I was thinking. Like the witness just brought some to be used as building blocks.

[sick yew]

Yup

Lego set

[ember shuttle]

If VOG adept weapons are timelost

How do we have them

[jagged badge]

Jokes aside, I don’t believe there’s any lore that would explain how we have weapons from legacy raids when they should be buried/destroyed with the old Tower from the Red War

[sick yew]

Well we dont

Legacy raids arent canon

Lore wise they dont happen that has always been my understanding

[jagged badge]

That’s not what I’m saying

[sick yew]

Then what are you saying

[jagged badge]

I’m not saying that we are doing the raids again. Just that there’s no explanation to how we have the weapons

Compare this to how they did Whisper and Zero Hour’s reprisal which did have some sorta lore justification behind us doing the activities and getting the weapons

[sick yew]

I mean yeah they also kinda switched those missions up to make them fit within the lore
Canon wise we neither do the raids nor own the guns

In short your fatebringer IS A LIE

[ember shuttle]

So like

In destiny 1 fatebringer was real

But in d2 it’s existence isn’t canon?

[trim grotto]

Fatebringer exists. The raid and its loot is canon. Running the raids more than once, including running Master Raids for Timelost/Adept gear, is not.

[ember shuttle]

Ahh see I wondered about Adept

So no adepts are canon?

[trim grotto]

Adepts and Timelost and the like are simply gameplay aspects.

[ember shuttle]

What’s your favourite part of the lore? @trim grotto

[ember shuttle]

Makes sense thank you

[trim grotto]

Well gee, there's an awful lot to pick from. I know my fair share of the lore of this game. My favourite little tidbit is probably that the Last City pipes paracausal energy through The Wall, for... some reason.

[ember shuttle]

I love the great hunt are there any fun facts you can teach me about it

[trim grotto]

It's where Eris Morn got her Ahamkara bone shard that she keeps in her spooky orb. She was a Bladedancer (Arc Hunter before Arcstrider) Hunter who participated in the Hunt.

[ember shuttle]

I knew the first part but I didn’t know she was a hunter

Idk why but Eris dresses so much and acts like a warlock

Imagine having your eyes ripped out by crota

My guardian could never

[trim grotto]

Neither did she. Her blindness was caused by a desperate Wish to that shard. She stole the eyes of an Acolyte herself as replacement... and repayment.

[sick yew]

The one that made me canon obviously

[ember shuttle]

wait what

i swear crota ripped out her eyes

i was lied to 😔

[sick yew]

But fr theres quite a few cool lore aspects

Mithrax's old fireteam was one that I always kinda liked

And ill never forgive Bungie for just discontinuing them back in like season of Chosen

Or Hunt?

[trim grotto]

They were meant to go meet up with Crow, if I recall.

Which just... went nowhere.

[sick yew]

Yeah that was the setup in again I think Hunt

And then Bungie completely forgot about them

Its so sad

Unnamed Hunter and Warlock my beloveds

[sick yew]

I would really like to know how that all happened tbh

Best guess is that at some point they didnt intend for Crow to enter the ingame narrative again in the way he did during Chosen?

Or Chosen and Splicer were swapped at some point and so there would have been one season where Crow wasnt present so they could have had them do their own shit in the lore

[autumn prairie]

why is golden age tech so sought after?

is not possible to make those technologies now in the present day?

[ember storm]

Without substantial amounts of resources, technologies, facilities, and the people to use them, yes

It’s not like we can just bring a staff over to Europa and restart exo production, for example

[autumn prairie]

but like siva

we could make siva right?

[ember storm]

No

And not to the extent it was used in the past

[autumn prairie]

alright thank you

[trim grotto]

Oh good god no
That's way out of our league right now

Consider that the Last City is exactly that
We have the resources of a single city compared to that of a interplanetary empire of billions of golden age humans
SIVA was developed by Wilhelmina Bray and a team of scientists, and the only true source of it was the replication chamber in Site 6, destroyed by us years ago.

They had the resources of the entire Clovis Bray corporation and GA Rasputin at their command, and the Brays, for all of their problems, were some of the smartest people of the Golden Age itself.

[autumn prairie]

damm

I just thought the clovis bray could like make them but didn't wanna

[slim elk]

Technically we could jumpstart the Golden Age again

Means grabbing all of Neomunas tech and dragging them out of cryo though

[jagged badge]

Neomuna definitely doesn’t have the resources to restore the Golden Age

[ember storm]

Best we could do is a Chrome Age

[trim grotto]

Clovis? There's the Clovis AI on Europa, alone and cut off from the Solar System, hardly anything under his control but ageing tech that's long been ransacked... or Banshee-44, but he's living the quiet life of a gunsmith.

[fast tapir]

what a sad AI :c

all alone

[ember storm]

He literally caused the deaths of everyone who was around him

He deserves everything

[fast tapir]

nuh uh!!

[ember storm]

He was also a massive misogynist

[fast tapir]

💀

[wheat flower]

I mean we could start a new golden age rn with the eliksni and cabal

House of Light might not be massive but the Eliskni are still technological wizards

[dim minnow]

we haven't quite regained our footing yet

neither have our allies

[empty fern]

But we getting there, give it time

[wheat flower]

Idk if the cabal can replicate their priduction capabilities but if they could that wouldn't hurt either

[dim minnow]

we literally just took out the main threat so only now are we actually able to work towards another Golden Age

[empty fern]

Sike, even bigger supposed big bad,

[dim minnow]

Winnower?

[empty fern]

Supposedly

[wheat flower]

Nah Jeff Bezos , Resurrected

[empty fern]

The final taniks

[dim minnow]

in my opinion, the Winnower seems like it's more going to be a passive/subtle enemy

like it's not really going to directly be a foe for us to face

just something that's there

[wheat flower]

I'd imagine the winnower acts in the same capacity as the traveler

It just gives power with no clear instructions

[dim minnow]

the Winnower seems to be a little more clear about it

given its relationship with Oryx

[copper compass]

just finished the lament missions.

some of the best lore stuff ive read.

i love the twist.

[unreal kestrel]

We probably won't do much with the winnower because they said final shape is the conclusion of light vs dark

[dim minnow]

which makes me think that Winnower vs Gardener isn't exactly Light vs Dark

[unreal kestrel]

Fair

[dim minnow]

given the revelation we got for Light and Dark in Lightfall, it seems like you can;t really just apply philosophies to the two anymore

[unreal kestrel]

I like to think that they use our universe as a playground and they were having a really long game of tag

[eager trout]

Imagine the macroengineering of Cabal but with the complexity of Eliksni technology

The Cabal working with the Eliksni to make a giant cannon that doesn't explode when you fire it: