📚lore-discussion

[trim grotto]

did you happen to, like, totally finish Avalon

[twilit vapor]

well die isnt the right word

[trim grotto]

it uh

well it is the right word

[trim grotto]

really though did you find everything Avalon had to offer

[twilit vapor]

no cos glaives arent my thing

but also i forgot what happens in the mission

[trim grotto]

okay well
he dies

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/scribetrace-shell

[twilit vapor]

i remember now

i meant like im glad he didnt get killed i guess

[sick yew]

Well he is gone post Avalon

[warped karma]

is there any lore to the shark shell from Solstice?

[small quartz]

@warped karma thoughts

[warped karma]

um

i think Kenjaku would stay in there

[sick yew]

Bro what kind of question is that

There is literally no way to answer this lmfao

[trim grotto]

I also literally cannot answer it because I don't know what is being asked

[sick yew]

No one can answer it besides a bungie writer making up new canon

[sick yew]

Theyre crossing an anime power with destiny lore

[dim minnow]

reminds me how Oryx's Deadnaught superweapon is literally a Domain Expansion

and it's ability is "destroy anything in a 1000 mile radius"

[sick yew]

Heh

You could argue that the ascendant plane is a form of that overall but only kind of

Anyway lets powerscale Goku against raidbosses fr fr

[jagged badge]

Goku gets absolutely swept by Val Ca’uor

Trust

[slim girder]

A Gorgon wouldn't be lifting a finger against Goku.

[trim grotto]

Don't make me picture a Gorgon with fingers

[slim girder]

Idk why but Gorgons have to be one of the scariest enemies imo. Idk even though it's just a special looking harpy the way they beep when patrolling is unnerving

[sick yew]

Classic case of lore vs gameplay

Gameplay wise Val Ca'our is on the same level as Riven theyre both raid endbosses despite power scaling wise hes literally just a big cabal with nothing special

And Riven is well Riven

[small quartz]

if someones mind is put into that of a guardian

and the guardian dies

does their original mind get restored or the invading mind

[warped karma]

oh right i wanted to ask @trim grotto is there Lore about the Shark plushie ghost shell from Solstice?

[small quartz]

goku would eat riven

[sick yew]

I dont think theres lore on ghost shells themselves like 99% of the time

Besides I guess Drifters but thats more about the ghost itself

[small quartz]

whats the lore

[warped karma]

aw man

[sick yew]

They just exist

Sometimes ghosts decide they want a new look

Ghost fashion and stuff

[small quartz]

you think theres like a Ghost Gala

[sick yew]

Maybe

[small quartz]

Ghost Met Gala

[warped karma]

4th encounter of SE shows your ghost of in the statues thats the Gala in question

[sick yew]

He wins

Every single time

[warped karma]

FROM WHERE

[sick yew]

Solstice a few years back

Or was it guardian games?

Nah I think it was Solstice

[warped karma]

but its not in shop right?

[sick yew]

Dont believe so no

[warped karma]

aw man

[small quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/fitbymartise-cowboy-dance-gif-23941878

[sick yew]

🤠

[trim grotto]

presumably a ghost and/or person thought it'd be cute

[small quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/channing-tatum-boots-hat-cowboy-blue-gif-15797109

[woven mesa]

who do ya'll think the strongest hunter in lore is

cause im pretty sure we all lean towards the same one guy

[sick yew]

Dont say Shin Malphur he isnt a lightbearer

[dim minnow]

The whole "who is the strongest" isn't exactly something set in stone in the lore

He managed to do a Golden Gun so he could be

[cinder geode]

Smartest we've seen is crow bro started running from.the witness before everyone else lmao

[dim minnow]

2 Alex?s

Lore wise though, the Hunter we've seen achieve the most impressive feats is Ana Bray

Her Golden Gun shots leave behind wells of Light that still burn

And at one point she fired 2 Golden Gun shots that traveled for light years

Though in order to do that second feat she needed her Ghost to supercharge her with Light

[sick yew]

look into #☀️off-topic-discussion

Theres a few more than 2

[jagged badge]

Just wanna flex real quick

[trim grotto]

Who are you

[small quartz]

Maels dementia arc

[slim girder]

Then what is he? Unless you mean lightbearer as in not affiliated with the guardians or anything. Because we have proof of him casting a golden gun.

[dim minnow]

the thing about Shin is that he had a Ghost that rezzed him when he was an infant, but that Ghost was destroyed so he is Lightless

and we don't really know how he was able to use Golden Gun

[slim girder]

Hmmmm. Maybe Shin is the first case of a ghost not being essential to wielding light. Because unless I'm missing something if a ghost dies, shuts off or is disabled the associated guardian loses their light.

Oh wait

[heady monolith]

hacking obviously

[slim girder]

In curse of Osiris sagira was damaged and Osiris was still fighting and using reflections.

He wouldn't be able to use reflections if he didn't have his light. It's an ability unique to him.

[dim minnow]

Sagira wasn't dead though

[slim girder]

Right. She was just damaged and the equivalent of knocked out. But again Osiris was still fighting in the infinite forest and everything.

We've seen that if a ghost is disabled the guardian loses their light but maybe some guardians can sidestep this rule.

Osiris and Shin are some of the most notorious guardians after all.

[trim grotto]

Osiris has some leeway. While his Echoes were largely Light based, some were tech.

Shin, though...

[wheat flower]

Mayb3 if another guardian gets rezzed as a baby we can destroy their ghoet and see what happens

[heady monolith]

hey mael, are there any lightbearers who cause a genuine threat to the last city currently, not because theyre just very strong, but because they are evil in some form

[slim girder]

Jana 14

[trim grotto]

Yes we definitely could do the psychopathic mad scientist option
However

[trim grotto]

Probably Jana-14, yeah. She's the Osteo/Necrotic Grips lady. Warlock that went mad due to Thorn.

[dim minnow]

could Lysander be considered a threat?

he once attempted a coup

[heady monolith]

maybe i put the thorn down then

[slim girder]

Given current lore it seems they want to make amends

[dim minnow]

though it seems like he isn't interested in further conflict

yeah

[trim grotto]

Yours is a copy made by a Guardian
Jana was studying the original, actual Thorn before it was destroyed

[dim minnow]

I'm just gonna say it again, there is no way she got her hands on the original Thorn

[trim grotto]

Well he's probably not a Lightbearer

[dim minnow]

Shin kept that shit locked up for years

[heady monolith]

nevermind i pick it back up

[dim minnow]

from what we got to go off, it is possible

[heady monolith]

i want an evil guardian story to happen so bad

[trim grotto]

Presumably he provided it to the City for study
Perhaps to learn from it, further his plans for the Shadows

[dim minnow]

civilian dialogue implies that the Concordat were focused on putting Guardians in charge

[dim minnow]

I find it hard to believe he would just lend it to the Vanguard like that

he only really let us have it because he truly saw something in us

[slim girder]

I still don't think it was thorn tbh. I have a theory that the artefact they studied was the Necrotic grips exotic itself.
But then again the artefact was said to have a "legacy" and that people were making knockoffs.
Considering the discharges I think that it was either necrotic grips or osteo considering those 2 exotic feature discharges of poison. Unlike thorn.

[dim minnow]

Osteo seems to be a direct creation of Jana herself

[slim girder]

Like maybe yors creation as they put it was yor trying to wield the power of the weapons of sorrow without the need for a weapon.

[wheat flower]

Nope it was thorn

She and a few other where assigned to study it

[old raven]

I like this

[slim girder]

Why would thorn be given to the vanguard though? Shin kept it sealed in a box with incantations to stop it tempting others before giving it to us in the lumina quest.

It's even stated that it's so dark that holding it made our guardian visibly sick

[old raven]

Ok I get maybe how the red death reformed is in d2 memory of the traveler inside the pale heart

Idk

[wheat flower]

I'd imagine he thought it would've been a good idea to figure out how they made the weapin

But like dovadah said it could've been a knockoff

[dim minnow]

Red Death Reformed was the original gun remade by someone who helped kill its original creator

[old raven]

Now I get it

Red death the guardian killer

[dim minnow]

yeah

[slim girder]

We already know how thorn was made. This is a very well known thing. I think that this artefact was something different and like I said possibly the Necrotic grips exotic or even osteo striga maybe considering its ability to discharge poison.

[small quartz]

whys the original red death so dangerous

[dim minnow]

though we still don't have that much on Red Death's (and Crimson's) creator

[old raven]

Yeah the person who made red death was crazy

[dim minnow]

and I think he made the weapons to replace his Ghost hence the healing capabilities

[old raven]

Yeah

[slim girder]

Ngl I'd like to see some more gruesome stuff in destiny. Jana 14 straight up excised someone's ribs to feed osteo striga. I know ratings would never allow it but I think it'd be cool.

She's destiny's equivalent of a serial killer

[old raven]

You just made me think of something gruesome

[dim minnow]

read the Acts of Mercy lore book

last entry has Saladin massacre a room of bandits

[slim girder]

I have. Also some pretty dark stuff

[old raven]

[slim girder]

Also did anyone find it strange that jana 14 mentioned she had a son once? Is that the first example of a guardian having a child?

Like a biological child?

[old raven]

Wait we can have children

[slim girder]

Not like Zavala who adopted hakim.

[slim girder]

No actual confirmation on it.

Zavala is the only known case of a guardian being a parent but it wasn't biological.

And Jana 14 does talk about having a son once but it's never expanded on.

[old raven]

Maybe will get something in the future

[dim minnow]

hmmm

[slim girder]

Very unsettling

[dim minnow]

could it be her Ghost?

[old raven]

Can’t be her ghost

Right?

[slim girder]

Could be. If she treats the gun like a child maybe a ghost could be the same

[dim minnow]

and chances are if she still had her Ghost, then he would not be ok with anything she is doing at all

[slim girder]

Definitely

[dim minnow]

sure there are some twisted Ghosts like Euloch (Luzaku's Ghost), but I'm sure almost all of them would draw the line at this

[slim girder]

Isn't immaru pretty twisted as well?

[dim minnow]

yeah, but he's just a prick

[slim girder]

True

Hmmmm. Maybe jana 14 by failing to protect means that on a mission her ghost died? So now she's a researcher in the city?
But then again she's says it's for the best like she did something to her ghost, possibly to feed osteo striga.

Weapons of sorrow love light after all.

[old raven]

Even reduced to pieces, the Red Death is a malevolent presence. It knows its purpose. It wants to continue its work.

[dim minnow]

I'd say that melevolent presence is done now

it's been remade for a new purpose

[old raven]

Ok

[ember storm]

That is Striga

The gun

She literally went crazy and feeds people’s innards to it

She was part of the research team that was studying the original thorn and had her mental state completely deteriorate as it went on

Necrotic Grips is another creation of hers and made with the skin of one of her fellow coworkers

I’m fairly certain that’s the other “child” she’s mentioning

That or the original thorn

[slim girder]

Until it's confirmed i still don't think it's the original thorn. Idk events just aren't lining up and considering the OG thorns power shin wouldn't just hand it to a bunch of researchers. He had it sealed until he let us find it.

[ember storm]

We literally just found it in a burnt pile

Shin’s entire mo was trying to find a “safe” way to handle darkness

Why would he not try to research the worst example of a guardian handling darkness in known history

Did you really think he just kept it in a box for hundreds of years before randomly tossing it

[dim minnow]

that was not the real Thorn

that was a replica

[ember storm]

“Something with such a dire legacy”

“Dredgens can mass produce *knockoffs and we can’t even tell what this is made of”

[trim grotto]

More than a few people questioned if we even should study something with such a… dire legacy - suggesting it is a very well known item
Ran our first test of the artifact's… let's call them "necrotic properties." We used cattle; they were large enough to survive the initial discharge.
Discharge suggests firearm, Necrotic properties suggests a deadly, poisonous effect.
Project day 45. We kept thinking about H-349 as a destroyer. But it's more sophisticated than that. I mean, with a normal gun, it's just… boom. Done. H-349 on the other hand is deadly, not destructive.
Explicit confirmation of weaponry
Project day 65. Another accidental discharge today. We realized that Yor's little creation is hungry, so we fed it more.
Confirmation of it being owned by Dredgen Yor, wielder of Thorn.

It's pretty strongly implied.

[dim minnow]

if anything, it could be a pure Devourer round

[trim grotto]

And this of course is the other part
The Dredgens did, in fact, make mass produced Thorn knockoffs

We did so ourselves

[ember storm]

It’s the specific wording

Knockoffs implies that what they have isn’t one

And also “this” instead of a general “they”

[trim grotto]

As well as specifically calling this one "Yor's"

[ember storm]

If it were a knockoff they would just say “Dredgens can mass produce these but we can’t tell what they’re made of”

Thorn knockoffs really shouldn’t be so coveted or complex to research

Theyre just out there and unregulated because the distinction between them and “normal guns” is fairly minimal

They essentially have the same capabilities as lemon

[trim grotto]

The way I see it is thus
Shin claims Thorn
Provides it to the City to test - it was the City Age by then. Jana-14 and her team study it, Jana is corrupted by it, the lab is evacuated. Thorn returns to Shin, who can now see how dangerous it is even by those aware of the danger. Thorn is hidden and eventually destroyed.

Seems reasonable to me

[slim girder]

Correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't yor and shins story in the dark ages? And this has researchers in what i'm assuming is a functioning lab. so that would mean shun waited possibly ages before handing over thorn for study and considering jana went nuts she might have even taken what we'd later know as osteo striga. Just throwing this out there, not denying that the artefact was thorn but i do think there's a possibility that it could be something else.

[fluid steppe]

is there any lore reason as to why shaw han bum ass fireteam died to patrol zone hive

[slim girder]

Also saying something has a legacy can mean different things. sure thorn has a legacy of killing but wouldn't thorn be the legacy of the weapons of sorrow in general if any more were created?

Something having a legacy at least to me means that either this 1 thing has done a lot or that there have been things like it before

[heady monolith]

because theyre all frauds, see those pants shaw han wears? thats armour that is gifted to guardians who participated in the great hunt, however shaw han actually got them from a market

[slim girder]

The logs being salvaged makes me think that this was red war period. Like they were found after the lab burnt down or something.

[trim grotto]

City Age. I can elaborate and source later when I'm free.

[dim minnow]

Shin himself said it was decades ago when he killed Yor

[empty fern]

(Mael was never seen again, thus, he was never free again)

[small quartz]

Im holding Mael captive

[empty fern]

Within reason

[hardy anvil]

How did Shaw Han get his goober hands on YAS when his ass couldn't even do shit against Navota?

[trim grotto]

Bought it from a market stall

[hardy anvil]

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/wyrmguard-grips

Literally though

To be fair though GM Navota is tanky as hell

[old raven]

[sick yew]

Bro literally said "we should team up, it was revealed to me in a dream"

[small quartz]

how do Ahamkara Illusions work

[trim grotto]

Like the one in the Throne World? It was Hive magic.

[small quartz]

No Like, just normal ones

not Throne World ones

[trim grotto]

And when you say Illusions, you refer to...?

[small quartz]

the illusions Ahamkaras cause

[warped karma]

give Mael like a point to go off

[small quartz]

Uhm...

Im sorry I just know they cause them

[slim girder]

Such as? Because they can do a lot

[trim grotto]

I'm still not really sure what you're referring to. They're shapeshifters, they don't usually make illusions.

[small quartz]

?

[slim girder]

Like shapeshifting?

[small quartz]

they dont?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1252029372341157978/1272901299775602801/pit_bonnie_sleeping.gif

mb im stupid

all I remember is something like

"The Illusions are like your bones speaking to you"?

or something

[trim grotto]

[small quartz]

Idk man im sorry

[trim grotto]

By the way now that I'm home I can provide a reference or a few for City Age Shin if you want
Or we can discuss something else I'm not fussed

[small quartz]

why do people say Shin is the strongest guardian

[slim girder]

Nah it's fine. I was actually looking through the book of unmaking lore and everything today lol. Thought I'd revisit the whole story just so I could get a timeline.

[slim girder]

Because he killed dredgen yor. A dark guardian who used thorn to murder countless guardians and people.

[trim grotto]

Man With The Golden Gun. Often touted as the first Gunslinger. Not true, but he is famous.

[small quartz]

So who is?

[slim girder]

People say the reason golden gun looks like the last word is because of him

Completely false though

[trim grotto]

There's no specific first Gunslinger, nor a specific first wielder of the Golden Gun.

If I were to speculate, I'd suggest that Shin was simply rezzed too late to be the most likely candidate for the first user of a Golden Gun.

There's also an entry that suggests he learned it on Mercury, but it's quite vague.

[slim girder]

I don't think there is any "first" user of any super to our knowledge. Just stories told by many different titans, Warlocks and hunters.

[small quartz]

I mean

whos the most powerful guardian

[slim girder]

That's very debatable

[trim grotto]

Well, there's also not a singular specified strongest Guardian. And Phoenix is right, it's quite debatable. However, Ikora Rey is amongst the strongest known Guardians known to exist, and Osiris was definitely up there too.

[small quartz]

Ikora is up there right

yeah

[slim girder]

Saint 14 is called the greatest titan who ever lived

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/saint14smash-vex-destiny2titan-gif-23997467

[small quartz]

Sainty bby

What abt Shaxx

[trim grotto]

Well, he's certainly terrifyingly capable. But there isn't exactly a power scaling list we can use.

[small quartz]

How about Cayde

[trim grotto]

Cayde-6 was... a good Hunter. He beat Shaxx once, though sort of cheated. Was he the best? No.

[slim girder]

We've only really seen cayde fight once and he's definitely adept in combat.

Or I guess twice now but he did have crow with him.

[trim grotto]

Well, there's also the Forsaken era comics.

[small quartz]

Cheated as in

[trim grotto]

Cayde-6 was able to put away the Scorned Barons, alongside a team he assembled.

[slim girder]

Modded holster

[small quartz]

ohhhh

lmao

i love that guy

[slim girder]

Lucky pants lore

[trim grotto]

He raised his hand high to wag a finger under Shaxx’s nose.

“—try to outrace my Golden Guns.”

Two children ran by in a blur, laughing.

Shaxx shook his head slowly. “It was a tactical error. Won’t happen again.”

“Next time doesn’t matter. You lost today, and today you owe me.”```

There's this, which may be related to...

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/lucky-pants

This

[small quartz]

okay how do you mod a holster?

[trim grotto]

Ask Cayde

[small quartz]

well

hes dead

so lemme just ask my cayde statue

its not replying to me 😔

gotta bust out the oujia board

[trim grotto]

luigi board

[slim girder]

Wonder if crow would ever try the crucible.

Or even Zavala

[small quartz]

the oujia board just asked me for money

[small quartz]

Well

[slim girder]

Ikora seems to have had her fun and now has a legacy of being an apparent nightmare in the crucible. Even lord shaxx still has trouble sitting because of her which is why he's always standing.

[small quartz]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1246449702388371542/1252195155654737931/Sequence_01.mp4?ex=66bf1d9d&is=66bdcc1d&hm=46211c387bdf668e85bb7bccbc8aabb1b532a4194681f8cdde4f3edf6b6830a7&

I dont think he CAN

do the Crucible

wait did I send the wrong clip

yep

[slim girder]

Oh yeah that's right no ghost lol.

[small quartz]

The Ghost went Fard.mp3

[sick yew]

Did we ever find out just how exactly he cheated or is the one loretab where he tries to dodge the rules the only part we have?

[slim girder]

No. All we know is an illegally modded holster was involved and cayde just called it luck.

[sick yew]

Damn

[ember storm]

Well we know that weapon perks and exotic perks are canon

I assume some mods would be too

So Cayde probably just took a completely ordinary holster mod and then illegally tinkered with it to give him extra perks

And then claimed the pants were just lucky

[slim girder]

I like to think that because of the exotic giving ALH that that was what the illegal part of it was.

[sick yew]

I wouldnt say all of them but we know rolls and shit sort of are

And so are rarities

[ember storm]

Vance got all up in a titan’s business for recklessly using the sundial over and over because they wanted a perfect paradox with trench barrel

[sick yew]

Unless I missed additionaly references I generally like to believe "weapon rolls" are just like attachements and shit, a different scope, barrel confuguration etc

[slim girder]

I wonder if there's such thing as a corrupted engram. Like it's half of one thing and half of another.

[sick yew]

Where as stuff like frenzy is less believable

[ember storm]

An engram is literally just a physical chunk of data

[sick yew]

(imo)

[ember storm]

It’s a zip file you can pick up and bring somewhere else

[slim girder]

High calibre rounds should increase damage

[ember storm]

It can’t be “half” of anything

[slim girder]

I know which is why I wondered if it could be corrupted or something like that.

[ember storm]

Umbral engrams

It didn’t change how the engrams actually worked

Drifter just exploited their nature to get broader loot

[slim girder]

Right

[sick yew]

I wonder what other perks you can kind of bend into making sense lore wise

Snapshot sights might just be a modification that makes it easier on the eyes or bigger so its simpler to look through

Dual loader makes sense sortof on rockets it sounds more complicated tho

Vorpal I guess you could argue to be a modification on the bullets to be armor penetrating so it'd do better against vehicles/structures

[sick yew]

What else we got fellas

[sleek matrix]

volt shot could be like a taser

incan explosive rounds maybe

[ember storm]

Ah yes

My rocket propelled sidearm actually just launched electrodes on wires

[sleek matrix]

[ember storm]

The subclass verb perks are actually perfect examples of the “guardians enhance their weaponry with their light” stuff you always hear about

Elemental resist and armor charges would also count for that I think

[slim girder]

The harmonic mods could work as well.

It'd make sense that say a stormcaller would be more resistant to arc. Or a behemoth being more resistant to stasis.

[oak oxide]

Second times the charm. I feel like I might know the answer to this but I want to hear you guys have to say. Oryx at peak power v.s. God Pharaoh Nicol Bolas from mtg who wins?

[covert stone]

power scalers zzzzz

[blazing wasp]

Who the hell is for pharaoh Nicol bolas

And wouldn't he just be taken by oryx

What's stopping that

[dim minnow]

Weapon perks are already canon

Trench Barrel being one that is specifically mentioned in lore

I reckon that what Trench Barrel does is that it absorbs energy from the user's melee attacks and adds it to the weapon's attacks

[sick yew]

Was it mentioned in what capacity?

Because as I said I doubt something such as outlaw is actually canon and "perks" are more just weapon modifications like barrels or scopes

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/vance-canary

Your answer lies within

[sick yew]

So no

Its entirely possible some perks are canon those which are basically physical addons to the guns themselves

[cinder geode]

Random rolls are canon too

[woven mesa]

is starhorse the strongest lore character........

[trim grotto]

Starhorse is barely even lore.

It mostly exists for the 30th anniversary memes.

[ember storm]

Also doesn’t really translate to strength

[cinder geode]

Where did starhorse even come from

[sick yew]

Yes

[ember storm]

Where everything in dares comes from

[cinder geode]

So the nine?

[sick yew]

I dont think so

[ember storm]

Exact opposite actually

[sick yew]

The zero?

Whats the opposite of nine

[ember storm]

The Starhorse invaded nine space without their consent at all

It’s literally just there and also kidnapped xur to be the announcer

[cinder geode]

Could the starhorse solo the witness?

[ember storm]

Again, no

Funny interactions with portals does not equal strength

[sick yew]

Its weird tha the Witness knows what the Starhorse is

[ember storm]

It also has zero reason or motivation to

It’s basically just Mr. Mxyzptlk

[cinder geode]

Oh yeah it could just hop to a different timeline

[ember storm]

Not timeline

Just universe

It also doesn’t really exist in the actual universe itself

All nine space is inside pocket dimensions

Starhorse just set up camp in the one it decided to create Dares in

[cinder geode]

So the nine and starhorse are just immune from the final shape I guess?

[sick yew]

Unlikely

Why would they

Pocket dimensions still exist yk

The Pale heart probably classifies as one if we're being real

[jagged badge]

The Nine helped us because they need to survive

So no

[ember storm]

The final shape would kill the nine inadvertently

Starhorse would literally just leave if it wanted to

[sick yew]

Tempest what do you think the Witness thinks of the starhorse

[ember storm]

And with no contenders to participate in Dares, why would it stay?

[cinder geode]

Then why didn't it?

[ember storm]

Because we didn’t all die

That’s literally the only reason

[sick yew]

We won lol

[woven mesa]

In a world where Cayde had a pet fish named Lieutenant

[ember storm]

Starhorse does not care for us personally, it never has

We are entertainment

[jagged badge]

We really do not need to seriously consider Starhorse and its motivations and such

[ember storm]

We are still around so Starhorse is still around

[jagged badge]

It’s not that deep, basically

[cinder geode]

It likes our sugar cubes though

[ember storm]

And the only way we get sugar cubes is from Starhorse itself

Like I said

It’s entertainment

A novelty

[cinder geode]

Damn

I like starhorse a bit less now

[jagged badge]

[cinder geode]

I'd starhorse friend with xur atleast? Or does he hate xur as much as he hates us?

[sick yew]

Xur hates us?

huh

[cinder geode]

Starhorse not xur

[sick yew]

Ah

Was confused by the he

[ember storm]

Again, not hate

Literally just entertainment

There is zero personal connection one way or the other

[trim grotto]

Starhorse is barely lore. We saw it for three seconds in a Nine cutscene, and then Bungie reused it for Dares as their 30th Anniversary for shenanigans involving their old games and a gameshow vibe.

[ember storm]

It was in the FS inkblot cutscene

[sick yew]

It was in FS itself as one of the rooms in which the Witness speaks to us

[ember storm]

I don’t really think that was Starhorse specifically tbh

Witness just likes horses

Also it’s formed from our own memories isn’t it

[sick yew]

The entire room was made to look like the treasurehoard

[cinder geode]

Is xur's horde, actually his horde?

[sick yew]

The Witness rooms? No

[ember storm]

No

[trim grotto]

No.

[ember storm]

He has zero ownership or even care for it

[sick yew]

Pretty sure its stuff the Witness cooked up for us specifically to dump exposition or well try to get us on their side

[ember storm]

Starhorse put him in charge of cohosting dares which includes handing out rewards

[trim grotto]

You'd very honestly be best off ignoring that Dares exists, lore wise

[cinder geode]

Damn

[trim grotto]

There is no "lore reason" why Xûr says to spay and neuter your Ghosts

It is just Bungie having fun and making gameshow references

And letting Baker be a horse

[sick yew]

@ember storm the stuff literally has the symbols of the Nine btw

[cinder geode]

What is xur?

[ember storm]

That’s rude

but he’s a Jovian

[ember storm]

Do not tell me you used DMT for the FS campaign

[cinder geode]

What's a jovian

[sick yew]

I used DMT everywhere
I just broke 16k kills on my main one a few days back

[ember storm]

Descendants of humanity like the awoken but also not really

[sick yew]

Pve kills*

[ember storm]

They’re called Jovians because they live on the Jovian moons of Jupiter

[cinder geode]

Oh

Is that why he has tentacles for a face

[trim grotto]

No.

The Nine reformed him into what he is today, when they made him their Agent.

Thing is, the Nine don't really understand how life works. So Xûr's cells are failing him and he's been slowly dying for years.

[sick yew]

His will is not his own!

[ember storm]

They don’t have healthcare benefits

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/xur-is-gone-xur-where-is-xur-did-xur-leave-xur-comes-back-gif-3309240502532845285

[cinder geode]

Damn poor xur that must be painful

[trim grotto]

Doesn't help that his back is shattered.

[ember storm]

Well everybody has dying cells eventually

[trim grotto]

Thanks, Orin.

[ember storm]

His main issue is his misaligned spine

[ember storm]

They also have bad HR

Imagine being permanently disfigured and now you’re replaced by the person who did it

[trim grotto]

AR

[ember storm]

I doubt they’ve have a good talk about it

[cinder geode]

Can't I just hammer his back to fix it?

[trim grotto]

A hammer is why it is broken

[ember storm]

They’re both still “human”

[trim grotto]

Yeah but then my joke doesn't land

[cinder geode]

Which means it could fix it

[ember storm]

Try it

[cinder geode]

I'll report back in a second

Nvm I turned his spine to dust

[ember storm]

I know you’re lying because it’s still Thursday

[cinder geode]

Nah I went to his treasure hoard

[ember storm]

You can’t activate any abilities there

[cinder geode]

Shit I've been caught! YOU'LL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE!

[dim minnow]

if Eager Edge skating is canon, then anything is possible

[tough kettle]

Its funny tho

[trim grotto]

Yes, Dares is fun and I enjoy it
It's just basically lore irrelevant

[tough kettle]

Its just silly nonsense

[small quartz]

Who was Caliban?

or Calibat?

the guy in Presage

[ember storm]

Shadow of Calus but also not really but karma still got him so eh

[trim grotto]

Caliban-8 was the second Hunter Vanguard.
Katabasis was the guy in Presage. He was Calus's Shadow of Earth, basically worked for Calus as a champion.

[small quartz]

Katabasis thanks

He worked for Calus??

[trim grotto]

Indeed he did

[ember storm]

Not because he liked him or anything

[trim grotto]

Katabasis is the one who stole the Glykon from the Red Legion for Calus in the first place

Pretty sure that's how it went down, anyway

Can't really check when I'm at work

[dim minnow]

yeah, Calus sent him and some of his Loyalists to steal the Glykon

[small quartz]

but why

[trim grotto]

Calus has promised us a place at his side at the end of all things, lavish riches, power, gold, and did so for years. We helped Calus out many times in the Leviathan raids, he was quite amused by us, and we worked for his gifts.

Katabasis clearly thought it worth enough to join fully

[small quartz]

Jesus

what did we get :3

[trim grotto]

Well, the Raid loot. Plus Exotics like Tarrabah, Legend of Acrius, stuff like that.

Emperor Calus was, at that time, a harmless weirdo who was the enemy of our enemy - he loathed the Red Legion, as it was their leader Dominus Ghaul who deposed Calus.

He called himself the Herald of Darkness, heralding the end of the universe, but was more calling for people to welcome it and party in the meantime.

[small quartz]

Oh

so he wasnt always evil

[dim minnow]

technically he was always a terrible person

we just didn't know he was crazy until later

[empty fern]

Calus like that one neighbor that hosts parties but doesn’t tell you to look in the back (slavery)

[small quartz]

Just like Beau De mayo ❤️

[trim grotto]

Well, to clarify, we thought he was a harmless weirdo.

Also he was literally doing slavery as well

[small quartz]

oh...

[empty fern]

But some of them liked it after it ended so, there’s that

[trim grotto]

Well to be fair he tried to free the Psion people

The Arkborn, however

That was dark

[small quartz]

... huh

@empty fern dont me

answer

please

WHY IS EVERYONE REACTING

[empty fern]

[fervent sandal]

What is the current year in d2?

[trim grotto]

We don't have hard dates in Destiny. The Golden Age began in the near future, the Golden Age lasted for unspecified centuries, and the Dark Age also lasted for unspecified centuries. City Age is speculated to be 300 years roughly, but still isn't truly known.

[sick yew]

Is it?

[empty fern]

Probably yea

[dim minnow]

one of the pages of the Into The Light lore book mentions it

[sick yew]

Odd

[small quartz]

Even 😏

[sick yew]

😐

[cinder geode]

Square

[ember storm]

Liberating all Psions means that the ones who earned their positions out of slavery would also lose all their inherent perks and privileges that came with it

Most notably Otzot, which is why she supported the red legion coup

[dim minnow]

according to Caiatl this wasn't really Otzot's reasoning

though Calus believed this was

[trim grotto]

Oh?

[dim minnow]

seems like she still did it to retain her status, but her motives weren't quite selfish

at least thats what it sounds like

[slim girder]

Do y'all think eramis gets annoyed with eido constantly texting her about coming back to sol?

Like she just wants to be left alone it seems

[gilded patio]

How strong would telesto be in the lore?

[blazing wasp]

we dont have a whole lot of information to determine this

[gilded patio]

:[

[blazing wasp]

its supposedly "harbingers" but we know damn well it aint like the ones mara fired

because them being this weak per shot even in a pure gameplay sense makes no sense if they are

its like a actual working thermonuclear bomb with the force rivalling the tsar bomb doing less damage than a base unpowered melee attack.

[blazing wasp]

exaggerated comparison, but in gameplay alone this makes no sense already

[dim minnow]

She hasn't left Sol yet. I'd say it's because Shaxx turned her fueling depot into a Crucible map

[blazing wasp]

and d2 is generally not the game to intentionally make stuff like this that makes no sense to this degree

[dim minnow]

At this point making the assumption that anything you see ingame is canon isn't too unreasonable

[blazing wasp]

though true, i highly doubt telesto in lore fires bolts that absolutely decimates anything it comes across, and fires several at once like its nothing, and its not even talked about

[dim minnow]

Weapon perks? Canon
Random rolls? Canon
Eager edge skating? Canon
Guardians grinding for things to improve ability recharge rates? Canon
Tuesdays? Canon
Crucible weapon/ability balancing? Canon

Given Bungie's track record with making gameplay things Canon, telesto's sentience being made Canon wouldn't surprise me

[blazing wasp]

i read your message as seeing ingame isnt canon, oops

what i mean is that telesto probably does not canonically fire the same shit mara fired at the dreadnaught when she intentionally got herself killed

despite it supposedly being "harbingers"

[dim minnow]

I'd argue it's a weaker version of it

[blazing wasp]

possibly, wouldnt try to argue against that

[slim girder]

On the telesto sparrow it says "They say a weapon was made with the traces of a harbinger, they say it can break anything".

So I'd be willing assume it's using the same kind of energy but obviously it's been brought down to a much smaller scale.

[gilded patio]

Yeah, but how strong would telesto be? Its “broken” the game before, yeah?

[dim minnow]

While the weapon itself is practically sentient, it's realistically still just a high-end fusion rifle in terms of firepower

[blazing wasp]

the game breaking bugs arent like... canon

[gilded patio]

Was worth a question.
Thx for answering

[dim minnow]

They could be though

[blazing wasp]

true

could be

probably not of all things though

[dim minnow]

You saybthat now, but Bungie might have it mentioned in a lore tab or something

[slim girder]

4th wall breaks are canon in Destiny

[primal field]

The witness trying to corrupt the player with loot will always be funny to me

[cinder geode]

I mean. It works just look a wilhelm

[frosty belfry]

do guardians get pregnant

[ember storm]

Signs point to no

[cinder geode]

[tough kettle]

no

[frosty belfry]

why

[tough kettle]

all guardians are completely infertile

[primal field]

Uuuhhhhmmmm didn't Zavala literally have a kid after becoming a guardian???

Or did I miss the part of the story where we learn the kid was adopted

[tough kettle]

hes adopted

[primal field]

Ah okok

Nvm then

If it was explained in some seasonal story before season 18 I didn't play back then, couldn't know

[ember storm]

That was the entire point of the story actually

The first time we learn he has a kid we learn he’s adopted

Plus in FS there’s literally a flashback conversation between him and his wife where they mention him not being theirs “by blood”

[trim grotto]

We don't actually know that.
Contextual evidence suggests Guardians do not have children, either by choice or not (most likely not), but the only evidence that actually states something similar is Saladin's Ghost saying he specifically will never have a child.

For full clarity, I believe they cannot. But, it's good to keep an open mind.

[tough kettle]

it would make very little sense for them to be able to reproduce

[trim grotto]

Well, I don't know about that. It'd be very emotionally heavy, as you'd outlive your child, but still.

Except perhaps if you were Awoken. We still don't know how long they live for.

[oak oxide]

So I'm confused about something. As I understand it the gardener is the traveler but the veil is the creation/extension of the winnower.
But is the veil just the winnower's power or its own thing? I've heard some bits of the lore saying that the veil is the dark equivalent to the traveler which confuses me because I thought that would be the winnower.

@ me

[dim minnow]

we know that the Traveler is the Gardener, but whether or not the Veil is the Winnower is less clear

there is strong implication that the Traveler and Veil were once united

so the idea I got from it is that the Veil is a missing half of the Gardener

while the Winnower is something else

[oak oxide]

the winnower isn't darkness personified right? Its intentions are malevolent and the darkness itself is a neutral force.

[dim minnow]

while heavily correlated with it, I wouldn't say the Winnower is the Darkness

and the Gardener isn't exactly the Light

[oak oxide]

By gardener you mean traveler right or are those two separate beings? I thought I remembered hearing something about there being more than one traveler unless if that's from two truths and a lie

[dim minnow]

it is from 2t2l

and as far as implications go, the Traveler is definitely an incomplete Gardener

with the Veil being its missing part

so either the Gardener's true form is both Light and Dark or the Gardener and Winnower were a singular being

[fresh zephyr]

If canonically, Guardians can just spam supers without any cooldown, what's the point in having a gun?

[trim grotto]

Because Guardians generally cannot just spam supers without any cooldown.

[ember storm]

Ability spam is incredibly taxing on an individual, as demonstrated by Osiris’ murderous rampage leading up to sagira’s death

Plus, generally speaking, abilities aren’t always going to be totally reliable

You’d rather have a gun that can be used in almost any situation and save your real power for the happenings that require it, wouldn’t you?

Cayde is a pretty good example of why relying on abilities and having no flexibility in weaponry is a bad call

If he just had a sword or something he’d have cleared that room in seconds

Instead he used top tree gunslinger for add clear, like a total dunce

[frosty belfry]

why

[ember storm]

It was already explained that nothing is confirmed but all evidence points to it just not happening

[trim grotto]

pretty much that

[ember storm]

Explanations also followed

It also doesn’t really matter

I’m much more concerned with the logistics of keeping a lethal-upon-contact pet space frog with an open container in the vanguard’s main logistics and war hub

[trim grotto]

The topic of this question has never truly been broached in lore, leaving it largely to theory. Although the topic was nearly brought up by Isirah, the Ghost of Saladin Forge, in the following excerpt, it doesn't clarify whether it is an inability, if it refers to Saladin alone, or whether it is a choice. "You'll never have a son, his Ghost had said, "but it isn't too late for you to take an apprentice."

In the past, Zavala had raised a son, Hakim, but Hakim was adopted as a child.

The lack of any supporting evidence on the topic of biological children in general suggests that at the very least that Guardians do not have kids. Whether this is a choice or inability is unclear.

It is my opinion that Bungie will likely not take an official stance on the matter of Guardians having biological children, and circumstantial evidence and implications would suggest it is not possible.

there

[frosty belfry]

okay

infertility doesn’t seem to make sense imo

some darkness entities like hive

have babies

i think it’s

choice

[ember storm]

Hive are a naturally occurring species, darkness mutations are not

[frosty belfry]

oh

[ember storm]

Lightbearers are literally all created from corpses being filled with light from sentient metal balls

[frosty belfry]

oh i forgot about that

yeah guardians were dead

yeah ur right

i forgot💀

already dead people probably can’t reproduce

[trim grotto]

Strictly speaking, I can imagine that it's possible. Risen are fully living again, they're not undead.

[tough kettle]

its interesting how being a lightbearer means that you can be resurrected but the "immortality" is limited, you can still drown, suffocate, die of malnourishment, sustain permanent injuries, etc.
i wonder what light does to the mind, besides wiping one's memory upon resurrection.

[trim grotto]

But that's a hypothetical, unsupported by the circumstantial evidence.

[trim grotto]

Well, Shayura is a good example of mental breakdowns still being a thing.

[ember storm]

Immortal doesn’t mean invincible

[tough kettle]

i know

[ember storm]

You will very much still experience all the pains of dying

[tough kettle]

yeah

[ember storm]

Just you get to come back afterward

You know Saladin’s first post-rez death was internal bleeding of the lungs which his ghost was completely powerless to help

[tough kettle]

mental instability was never off the table

[ember storm]

Jade rabbit lore tab confirms the existence of widespread antidepressants specifically designed to target existential dread

It’s called Immortalia

[tough kettle]

i wish there was a way to help existential dread in real life

[ember storm]

I find that drawing helps

[tough kettle]

i do like drawing

[small quartz]

Anti anxiety meds exsist

[tough kettle]

yeah i take medicine

[small quartz]

Like Cain from Lucifer

[slim girder]

Guardians to our knowledge aside from strength don't possess any sort of invincibility compared to regular humans. We just have combat armour on but aside from that a guardian is very squishy.

Cayde took a hit from the hangmans weapon through a wall but I can only imagine what the damage would be like against a human or awoken guardian.

[heady monolith]

red paste

[outer dragon]

Germaine died of starvation multiple times after his first rez because he doesn't trust his ghost.

[slim girder]

We saw Zavala get shot and sliced by eliksni when he was first rezzed and moving towards the traveler..

[worldly river]

Aside from the "getting brought back when you die" that's pretty standard immortality in the more traditional sense than the somewhat more modern concept of it as "You cannot die via any means but still suffer from bodily harm"

Like I BELIEVE Tolkien elves are immortal in that sense

[tough kettle]

i must not be clear enough with my words, i know this already
i was simply making an observation :P

or commenting on it

[worldly river]

It is still kinda interesting to note that Destiny uses that sort, I find the "cannot die of natural causes" brand of immortality much less common nowadays

But then blends it with the resurrection thing

I have seen some stuff like that before but it's very uncommon

Thinking about that actually makes me realize Destiny has never really dove into the idea of resurrection and sense of self, like it's perfect fodder for the same sort of discussion as the sci-fi concept of teleportation that essentially flash copies a person to a new location

I'm sure it's been brought up in some lore books written by some egghead Warlocks

But the closest we get to that concept being brought up in a more major sense is transhumanism with Exos and Saint's whole crisis this Episode

[fiery drum]

Bruh i havent played the game in 2 years. Now that the witness is defeated what is the darkness now

[worldly river]

Same as it has always been, as we've understood it since like Witch Queen-ish
A neutral force that can be used by anyone with the proper mindset to use it

The Witness was never the source of Darkness powers as we understand the Traveler to be to the Light, it was simply using the Darkness as a tool
The Veil is the Traveler's counterpart but even it is not a source in the same way

If the Traveler were destroyed we would be unable to access the Light through any currently knowable means but the same cannot necessarily be said for the Veil as use of Darkness does not require a connection to it, merely the knowledge of how to use it

But I digress, Witness's death changes nothing as far as the Light and Darkness are concerned

[unreal pecan]

anyone have statements that guardians get there power from the light

or to say 99% of there power comes from the light

[dim minnow]

Ghosts are literally parts of the Traveler

[jagged badge]

[dim minnow]

hence why Guardians are inherently connected to it along with their Ghosts

major plot point of TFS

[jagged badge]

It’s like a pretty intrinsic part of Destiny’s premise that the Guardians got their Light from the Traveler

[tough kettle]

thats probably explained within like, the first few hours of the first game

[dim minnow]

it does help to explain exactly why that is the case

of course Ghosts came from the Traveler, but the fact that the Traveler partitioned itself to create them does show for a fact that our powers directly come from it

it could be argued that our powers are the Traveler's but on a smaller scale

hmmm

Traveler is a terraformer, so it stands to reason that Ghosts are kind of like terraformers themselves

[tough kettle]

a terraformer of a single being

[dim minnow]

so... potential lore explanation for us being able to modify our appearance?

[trim grotto]

How about the entire Red War campaign?

[slim girder]

Ghosts are the conduit between the traveler and the light. If you've seen ghosts be destroyed or disabled it takes their guardians light away.

[slim girder]

Golden age plastic surgery

[unreal pecan]

ye, do you recall any instanced where we become fatigued besides red war?

[slim girder]

TFS end cutscene

[unreal pecan]

TFS?

[slim girder]

The final shape

After excision our ghost died for a moment and we lost our light as they fell

Zavala had his ghost disabled in season of the chosen and couldn't defend himself

[tough kettle]

a little strange if the player is an exo, wouldnt make sense to be "fatigued" XD

[slim girder]

Yes it does

Exos are made to be as close to humans as possible

[tough kettle]

if they felt fatigued it would likely be a placebo if anything

rather than being a physical thing, it would be a mental thing

[slim girder]

Again they are designed to be as close to humans as possible. This helps the human mind settle into the new body without needing a reboot.
So while sure they may not need food or drink they still eat because it's what a human does. They would definitely be programmed to feel things like exhaustion.

[tough kettle]

such as the fact that exos can feel the need to sleep, but they wouldnt die without sleep

[tough kettle]

you literally just proved my point, they are PROGRAMMED to feel exhaustion instead of it being a physical phenomena

also i already know this

[dim minnow]

in the end of Iconoclasm we're not in a very good state and can barely run out of the ritual site

though our Ghost is still alive at that point

[trim grotto]

Well, the Light augments and enhances us. Even for an Exo, this would probably have an... adjustment period.

[unreal pecan]

oh this would be exactly what im looking for

can you link the ishtar

[dim minnow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA_uYV6PFOY

[trim grotto]

I don't believe the transcripts are on Ishtar yet. It is, however, on the Destiny Lore Vault.

[unreal pecan]

and our connection was weakened to the traveler?

[dim minnow]

I believe we were just injured

the Witness forced us and our Ghost out of the Darkness

or its mind?

wherever the Dissenter statues we break are

[unreal pecan]

actuall

hold on

[dim minnow]

they never quite specify where those statues are exactly

[unreal pecan]

https://lucid.app/lucidchart/4532de17-594d-47b5-8405-d28305ccf341/edit?viewport_loc=456%2C10%2C3246%2C1672%2C0_0&invitationId=inv_21b34d7c-e9d4-4bfe-85e1-94550753b460

this is a Mind Map

i have for the guardian being beyond Physics

and the core pionts are oryx is weaker then the guardian

[dim minnow]

Oryx's state was due to different reasons

[unreal pecan]

Dovadah and Maelstronnar i think yall are extremly smart so if you wanna take a look

[trim grotto]

We beat Oryx because we systematically dismantled his Tribute system

[unreal pecan]

and disagree or give supporting ideas

[dim minnow]

his tribute line was effectively FUBAR

[unreal pecan]

id be all ears

[trim grotto]

I can't really check until, uh... probably four or five hours from now.

I'm on my lunch break at work, haha

[unreal pecan]

anytime you can look id be honored maelstronnar

youre definitly super smart

[dim minnow]

won't let me without an account

[unreal pecan]

oh hold on

lemme

do this

Outer just means beyond physics

[dim minnow]

what's the source for Oryx being the Stargazer?

seems like the Stargazer is more likely someone else

maybe one of the Witness' precursors

since the Hive never even knew of the Traveler until the Osmium sisters met the Worm Gods

or at least they never called to it

@unreal pecan

though, I do have a somewhat reliable source on Guardians' power being "above physics"

along with a source or 2 saying that Guardians are reality warpers

It was the gardener that chose you from the dead. I wouldn't have done that. It's just not in me. But now that they have invested themself in you, you are incredibly, uniquely special. That wandering refugee chose to make a stand, spend their power to say: "Here I prove myself right. Here I wager that, given power over physics and the trust of absolute freedom, people will choose to build and protect a gentle kingdom ringed in spears. And not fall to temptation. And not surrender to division. And never yield to the cynicism that says, everyone else is so good that I can afford to be a little evil."

• excerpt from "The Wager", Unveiling

though the exact source of Unveiling is debatable, we know it is either propaganda from the Witness, or propaganda from the Winnower

and even if it is allegorical and likely propaganda, there is truth to be seen in it

and I wouldn't doubt that the statement of us having power over physics is true in this context

Now Crota is gone, and Lavinia has gambled everything that the portals have fallen into other hands. Ahamkara make the unreal real—Calus's ship is surrounded by a halo of unreal dark matter, like a ring of probing hands, Guardians can manipulate reality itself—there is a pattern here, a story, and it leads to Cocytus, to what these gates might do.

• excerpt from "The Gate", Dust

according to the Nine themselves, Guardians have reality warping capabilities which is why they took interest in us after we killed off the Ahamakra

[tough kettle]

i saw my guardian stumbling and thought of it as such

[frosty belfry]

what is the second part of the relic in the enclave

[sick yew]

Wdym?

The thingy on the left side?

You use for a handful of quest steps

[frosty belfry]

of what quests

[sick yew]

Various ones

But do you mean that one?

Or wdym with "2nd part of the relic"

[dim minnow]

the conduit?

[frosty belfry]

oh i replied to the wrong channel but yes the conduit

the part that’s on the left

[sick yew]

Thats just there for ingame purposes

No lore implications to my knowledge

[dim minnow]

lore wise it seems to be a way to interact with the conduit for ways not related to shaping/reshaping weapons

mainly for quests and stuff

[sick yew]

Is crafting even canon

[dim minnow]

yes

the Enclave is a major part of the WQ story

[sick yew]

For doing funky shit with the worm memories yeah

But crafting guns?

[dim minnow]

should be

[sick yew]

Neat

[dim minnow]

the first glaive is crafted

[sick yew]

True

[dim minnow]

us getting the exotic glaives from the Relic (which is done by crafting them) is canon

[sick yew]

Shouldn't enigma technically be exotic too? Due to it only existing once

[dim minnow]

I don't think existing once equates to exotic

[sick yew]

That was generally my understanding of what makes something exotic
It's rarity (notable exceptions exist ik)

[dim minnow]

in D1, Stranger's Rifle was presumably the only of its kind (not counting whatever convoluted shit NTTE lore had) and it was blue (later changed to legendary)

[sick yew]

Mh but generally most exotics are unique and no one besides us really has them

[dim minnow]

yes, but it isn't absolute

[sick yew]

Yea

[dim minnow]

like Malfeasance and Thorn

[sick yew]

Was thinking more of Suros Regime

Thorns and Malfs still exist in some limited ish quantity unlike Suros or like Coldheart

[dim minnow]

but they aren't unique

Drifter gave Malfs out to his pogdredgens

and the SHadows of Yor had their own Thorn replicas just like the one we have

[sick yew]

Yes that's what I meant with limited ish
There's prob a bunch of folks running around with one but I couldn't consider it mass produced

[dim minnow]

speaking of which, Bungie never really went back to the whole plotline of Drifter wanting to kill Shin

[sick yew]

Well Shin ain't exactly in the picture anymore

[dim minnow]

then again, it seems like all that ended with Shin's effective retirment

and Drifter's change of heart

[sick yew]

Been a while since Drifter lore
Would love to have him be the focus of a seasonal storyline

Maybe in Episode 3

When bro asks us for help saving Eris from falling off

[dim minnow]

Revenant seems like it will be mostly Eliksni folk

Spider, Eramis, Eido, Mithrax, Variks, Fikrul

[sick yew]

Yes episode 3 is hive so Eris will be involved so I'm hoping drifter will too

I doubt we'll see him in ep2

Or hell maybe he'll be in Frontiers
Doubt there's many people who know their way better around what lies beyond Sol

I swear episode 3 is going to just be 3 hours of trauma dumping from both Eris and Drifter with us as the therapist

[dim minnow]

meanwhile Xivu Arath is hiding from us like the little bitch she is

[sick yew]

Ong

[dim minnow]

because she knows she's screwed if we find her

oh, and the Winnower is just watching us

[sick yew]

How do you theorize Frontiers is gonna go

[dim minnow]

not sure

[sick yew]

Will we leave because of explortation or out of necessity

[dim minnow]

I am hoping that we get a little bit of a revamp for Gambit

like maybe a repurposing where instead of gathering Dark motes for Drifter's doomsday plan, we are gathering resources for extrasolar travel

like maybe using Ascendant Plane travel

hence the need for Dark Motes still

[sick yew]

Mayhaps
Tho I meant more as for our reason to travel

[dim minnow]

I mean, the Witness was the cause of literally every single one of our problems so

[sick yew]

Cause the more I think of it
What if we have to flee and that's how it all comes to be

[dim minnow]

not really anything that can just force us to run

[sick yew]

Ghaul 2

[sick yew]

Watch the Winnowr casually stop by the backhand the last city physically

[dim minnow]

I don't really think we're going to leave Sol because we had to abandon it

maybe some threat out there will force us to come to it

or we're just going out into the galaxy

of course, the idea of just leaving Sol isn't exactly viable since we haven't even reclaimed Earth yet

[sick yew]

I mean honestly I'd love a campaign that starts simply because we feel like it's gotten too boring here

[dim minnow]

so chances are we will have a reason urging us to go beyond the system

[sick yew]

Nothing a few vanguard ops can't fix man fr

Funfact 90% of vanguard operatives give up just as they're about to reclaim a planet properly

[dim minnow]

just a reminder that I'm being 100% here

ANYTHING that happened in the game's story can be tied back tot he Witness

in some way

[sick yew]

You could spin it further and say it really is the Travelers fault but I'm with you here

[dim minnow]

can't really blame the Traveler

given the circumstances

the Witness is just a prick

[sick yew]

True but blame or not it all goes back to her

I hope we get to live the say where we get to meet her outright

I'm a big fan of the "twist" we've gotten via the traveler collectibles in the pale heart and Micahs interpretations

Humanizing was arguably the best decision they could have gone with besides just leaving it completely unexplained forever

[dim minnow]

that twist was that the Traveler isn't exactly in its rigth mind?

[sick yew]

Yeah

[dim minnow]

I suppose there was some lore backing too

[sick yew]

In particular the one where she explains the way she feels about being worshipped

[dim minnow]

one of the Dreams of Alpha Lupi mentions that memory weighs heavy on it

I already knew the Traveler never sought worship, but it does show an interesting perspective

like it has active disdain for it

[sick yew]

To me it sounded more like confusion and a lack of idea how to proceed

Like it almost sounded scared

[dim minnow]

that too

[sick yew]

imo the only other acceptable way to take the Travelers story is to never explain it in the slightest

Just have it be there

No voice behind it, no dreams for people

It just exists and occasionally acts

[slim girder]

Since frontiers will most likely have us going outside of sol I do wonder how far away we'll be travelling.
I'm not an astrologer or anything but does anyone know some IRL galaxies, moons or planets that could exist close to sol?

Anything that we could possibly explore?

So far the only planet I recall in the lore that we haven't visited is Enceladus.
Not sure if Jupiter, Uranus or pluto are of any significance.

[sick yew]

I mean tbh going outside of sol frees bungie from making planets mimic the way they are irl

If I were a environment artist id rejoice and just come up with a sick planet not bound by existing stuff

[sleek matrix]

They can do that already thou

It doesnt have to be exact

[ember storm]

I mean yeah but every time we just have to be left wondering why it’s not like it irl

[slim girder]

I don't mind small changes here and there because I'm sure the traveler terraformed pretty much everything. But it's not like say changing Europa into a desert or something that extreme. You could also add in vex influence or something.

The planets would still look and feel like their IRL counterparts but just with the destiny spin on them.

[low vector]

Why is nimbus in excision? Who is protecting neomuna?

[slim girder]

The neouma defences. We got rid of the major threat to the city there.

[jagged badge]

Because defeating the Witness is more of a priority over Cabal stragglers

The city could survive the brief time they weren’t there

[dim minnow]

To be fair, Neomuni are bitchmade

[ember storm]

Capybara hour is rotting their brains

[slim girder]

Neomuni are weebs

[low vector]

I hate neomuni

Whole location sounds like it was designed by people who think living in VR is "cool"

[empty fern]

Neo muni is just star vs the forces of evil

But a sequel

[unreal pecan]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/iv-syzygy#books-of-sorrow

I think the star gazer is either Auryx

Or is the kell of house of stone

The one who goes

“Where is the great machine”

Both of them tho do have instances while being under parrel of looking out to the traveler

But I’m more convinced now it’s the kell of the house of stone since I believe that this ergo sum statement is referring to oryx killing people in chase of the traveler

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/doom-of-chelchis?highlight="Where is the great machine"

[trim grotto]

You are a moon. You feel heavy, so heavy, but to the stargazer you hang weightless in the sky. When the stargazers call out, you do not answer. They would give themselves up for you; abandon their own dreams to chase you. You love them too much to condemn them so.
Are we referring to this? Abandoning their dreams and giving themselves up to the Traveler doesn't sound like the Hive to me. Plus, the proto-Hive/Krill didn't actually know the Traveler was even there until the Worm deal was struck.

[wheat flower]

We might end up visiting torbatl and Riice

[unreal pecan]

Auryx changed her entire life for the sake of hunting the traveler

[wheat flower]

Caiatl did say she wants to retake it now that Xivu is in a weakend state

[unreal pecan]

I do think kell of house of stone fits this a bit better tho

But I don’t have a direct statement for oryx being the one to cause their death

[trim grotto]

Yes, to hunt it. This is phrased quite differently, as if the stargazers loved it.

[trim grotto]

Kell of Stone? We can only suggest Oryx was involved due to the relic being on the Dreadnaught, along with other items showing the last moments of his victims. Plus, we know Oryx followed what we can say is the Black Fleet in retrospect.
However, we cannot confirm Oryx's involvement, only infer it.

The Fallen never mentioned the Hive when speaking of the Whirlwind, for example.

[ember storm]

Might be a cool case of the only ones actually witnessing it the ones who stayed behind to die

[marsh spire]

Whats the difference lore wise between taken (like psions and knights) and shadow touched (like shadow thrall and shadow touched guardian)?

[empty fern]

No idea, shadows are probably just weaker manifestations (also shadow touched guardian?)

[dim minnow]

only thing I can think of is when you are under that one Taken effect that limits your movment

[empty fern]

Ohhhh from the blight areas?

[dim minnow]

and even then I'm not sure what that has to do with this

[dim minnow]

yeah like the sparrow section of Hypernet Current

[empty fern]

Probably just naming coincidence

[dim minnow]

I know nothing of a Shadow Guardian

[dim minnow]

Taken were transformed while the Shadow Thrall and Shadow War beasts are seemingly just manifestations made from Dark energy

[empty fern]

(Probably just the duel destiny thing)

[dim minnow]

could be Taken energy specifically, but we've seen cases where non-Taken like the Liminality Tormentor could spawn them in

[dim minnow]

wouldn't know, still haven't ran it

[empty fern]

Damn you

[dim minnow]

I ought to do a Chronicler run with Mael

[marsh spire]

Iirc when doing overthrows one of the objectives makes you go thru a portal then you become like shadowy and your can is in 3rd person

[dim minnow]

oh that

that's the torn between dimensions thing

that's just us using Taken power to our advantage

[ember storm]

Gambit basically uses a more refined version when you invade

[unreal pecan]

i think you might be correct

anyone have the statement that oryx make a rule of his throne world sword logic

[unreal pecan]

oh what relic

[dim minnow]

I think Chelchis' crown

though if we didn't get that from the Dreadnaught, then there is still the Doom of Chelchis gun

from King's Fall

[unreal pecan]

how would you argue for the fact his statement is on the gun means Oryx killed or caused his death

[dim minnow]

the fact that the gun is specifically in the King's Fall raid must mean something

[unreal pecan]

the traveler can be the most important part cant it?

[dim minnow]

what?

[unreal pecan]

like why does having your name mentioned Neccicarly mean oryx killed you

if the raid mentioned Toland calling to the traveler

does that mean toland was killed by oryx?

[dim minnow]

no, Toland's physical body was destroyed by Ir Yut, the Deathsinger

also the only mentioning of Toland in regards to King's Fall were in grimoire cards

and the weapons in King's Fall are named after people from species that were wiped/nearly wiped out

like Yasmin who was a part of the Awoken fleet that attacked Oryx at the Battle of Saturn

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/uldren-sov-destiny-hype-cream-screaming-gif-13586314

[trim grotto]

It's in the flavour text and the names. Doom of Chelchis. Defiance of Yasmin. Midha's Reckoning. Qullim's Terminus.
This is what we may use to imply that Oryx was, to some unknown degree, involved with these events.

Toland is irrelevant.

[empty fern]

Toland is crota, one of his souls shards found the witness anomaly and became crota 2

Sorry for spoiling heresy y’all

[trim grotto]

All of these items, plus other artifacts like Chelchis's Broken Crown and Midha's Jasper Carcanet, were aboard the Dreadnaught

Environmental and contextual storytelling, then, suggest these are connected.

However, as I said earlier, this isn't entirely supported by written or stated lore. Variks's recounting of the Whirlwind never mentioned Hive, for example.

[dim minnow]

where was it stated that the D1 artifacts came specifically from the Dreadnaught again?

I know they do drop from Court of Oryx

but was that it?

[trim grotto]

I'm going by D1 vets recounting it
I'd have to actually research where exactly they dropped
They're all added in Taken King though

Anyway my break is over again haha

[empty fern]

Gone

[trim grotto]

I should have time to actually look at your link tonight by the way Sphinx

Couldn't get around to it last night

[dim minnow]

artifacts weren't added in D1 until Taken King released that is correct

all I can properly remember is that Court of Oryx did drop high power level artifacts

[trim grotto]

The Jasper Carcanet drops from KF itself

Which references Midha

Same for the Broken Crown of Chelchis

[dim minnow]

now that is a stronger indicator

[unreal pecan]

I would personally agree, but just think under strick forms of questioning such as calling these name fallacies is there

I’m trying to make these things beyond concrete

[unreal pecan]

It was clearly a analogy

[trim grotto]

It isn't concrete.

It's implied and to be inferred, but as I've clarified, it isn't strictly confirmed.

[unreal pecan]

Obviously with what’s been presented here today by us all it’s not

But my goal is to make it concrete

[trim grotto]

At this time, I don't believe you can. There's a lack of further supporting evidence. One could use the lack of evidence as a counterpoint in and of itself, but that's about it.

[unreal pecan]

Byf seems to believe this to be the case enough to make a entire animation on it

[trim grotto]

Byf is as fallible as the rest of us

[unreal pecan]

I think if he spent the time and money to make a animation on it

It is likely he knows of a statement

That just confirms Oryx causes the kells death

[trim grotto]

There isn't signifcantly more information on that topic.

[unreal pecan]

well I thank you all for giving the best information you can

Actually has oryx or the give ever been referred to as the maw

[trim grotto]

Not that I am aware of off the top of my head. However, an anomaly of Darkness, believed to be a Pyramid, has been.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the give" though.

[trim grotto]

And with respect, many lore folks of renown have discussed this topic across many communities. There isn't an explicit statement saying "Oryx killed Chelchis".

It's widely accepted that Oryx was involved due to the aforementioned implications. Personally, I have my mild reservations, but nonetheless.

If you're looking for more varied opinions or viewpoints, however, I can recommend some dedicated lore servers that you might find interesting.

[slim girder]

Even if you have the most concrete thing in the world sometimes you do miss very small details.
Not everyone can find the same thing like I could take a look at something, think I know everything but then someone else could see something that I completely missed.

Destiny's lore has definitely played tricks and lied before.

[sick yew]

naaaah Destiny lore would never lie

Solo shattered throne at 900 power would you kindly?

Or was it 700?

Idk

Something something truth to power funny lorebook

[dim minnow]

999

[sick yew]

Close enough

[cinder geode]

1000 ☝️🤓

[dim minnow]

K. You bring Medusa before Rahool. "Ah," he sniffs, "another battle trophy? Pre-Collapse, post-Foreboding, a covert intelligence designed to watch over a high-risk colony mission. Allow me to decrypt her for you." He issues you several tokens, a rare-quality fusion rifle, a shader, and a letter. The letter reads "Achieve Light Level 999 and defeat Dûl Incaru in a one-person fireteam to unlock the true ending of the Dreaming City."

[slim girder]

Speaking of the dreaming city I wonder what exactly is the solution to removing the curse. Maybe it's really as simple as just killing savathun finally. Petra was told by Osiris that it was very similar to a vex simulation but we dealt with quria ages ago.

[sick yew]

Didnt we do it?

By wishing it or sum shit

[dim minnow]

according to Season of the Wish, the curse is here to stay

[sick yew]

oh

Time to build another one

[dim minnow]

the best we can hope for is to find a way to free those trapped in the curse loop

[slim girder]

Yeah. I know. But mara is still looking for a way to free everyone

[sick yew]

What if they leave?

Like physically

[slim girder]

They can't I think