📚lore-discussion

[trim grotto]

It wasn't really enslavement. It didn't move or resist or act sentient in any way.

[small quartz]

The Veil?

still 😭

they made it a battery

[trim grotto]

Yes. Why not?

[small quartz]

idk

the reprecussions of, making the darkness a battery

[trim grotto]

If you have Lightfall, listen to the Veil Logs.

It goes over the process.

[jagged badge]

Neomuni

[small quartz]

I have it but not my PC

[small quartz]

thanks

[trim grotto]

The Destiny Lore Vault has videos of it, if that's an alternative. Regardless, the day to day applications of the Veil hasn't actually had real repercussions. It was pretty much just Maya's early experimentation that went awry.

Also nobody knew what the Darkness actually was then

[small quartz]

so Strand is like

the string of life right

the energy everyone flows with?

[trim grotto]

Eeeh, sort of.
The Weave is a universal web of consciousness attached to all consciousness. Strand is our application and useage of that force.

[small quartz]

ah

so

Stasis is just, ice

[jagged badge]

[trim grotto]

Stasis is all about control. Self control, exerting control on the universe. It manifests as a crystalline force similar to Perfect Crystals. Essentially, the energy of an area is drained to such a degree that it solidifies.

It is not water ice.

[small quartz]

Dope

[cinder geode]

Any lore updates on the guarding that killed other guardians fir using the darkness?

[trim grotto]

Shayura? None that are particularly recent, but yes. What's the most recent thing you know of?

[cinder geode]

I just know it's the lore in the trials armour so I was just wondering

[jagged badge]

It’s been a developing story across many seasons/expansions

Started in Splicer I believe?

I wonder if we’ll even get more of them now that Robert is gone ☹️

[trim grotto]

Shayura has been in Last City custody for quite some time. After the Hive got the Light, her worldview shattered.

She was stuck in a "Darkness evil, Light good" mindset, which was the root of her slaughter... but upon being forced to confront the truth, she realised what she had truly done, and turned herself in.

Since then, she was imprisoned, has been undergoing therapy, and was even released back into the care of her old Fireteam under very careful supervision, since the universe was about to end and we needed all hands on deck to not, y'know, die.
That trio of fighter pilots in the Lightfall cutscene with the Witness? That was Shayura, Aisha, and Reed-7.

[small quartz]

Do Watermelons Exsist

[cinder geode]

Oh so she's dead

[trim grotto]

Reed-7 was the Titan who, along with his Ghost, was killed by the Witness. Shayura and Aisha's Ghosts survived, and so they were resurrected later.

[trim grotto]

Well there's a shader called Watermelon

so there's that, I guess

[small quartz]

whats it color

green red n black?

[cinder geode]

I wonder if we'll get more lore on the unknown guardians in the exotic class items lore

[trim grotto]

Pretty much

[jagged badge]

Nope

Only Reed’s Ghost died there

Aisha and Shayura were resurrected

[trim grotto]

thanks for the recap eris

[jagged badge]

And I see Mael already said that

Oopsie daisies

I’m skim reading while walking outside

[fresh zephyr]

Played up to Verity last night

So the Witness is like the Winnowers Guardian?

I always thought the Winnower didn't care what happened

Also why was Taniks made a Disciple? Or is he just the Herald in the raid? So many lore questions

[trim grotto]

He wasn't either of those things.

Taniks was not there.

[fresh zephyr]

Wait he's not the Herald of Finality?

[trim grotto]

No.

[fresh zephyr]

Damn😔

[trim grotto]

Not exactly. The Winnower didn't set the Witness on a path, the Witness is just doing its own thing, and claiming that it is the knife.

[fresh zephyr]

That's kinda cool

I wonder if there are any other entities like the Witness. Probably not, with how every single faction was held under its thumb while it was present

Kinda crazy how much of a vacuum there is now

[trim grotto]

The Witness was something that held culpability for everything that ever happened to us, somewhere down the chain.

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah, it's insane to think about. I wish there was more of the interactive memories in the Pale Heart between people like Savathûn and the Witness

By far the coolest part for me

[burnt birch]

Where do the rifts on the walls that the black guys crawl out of lead to?

If the guardian was to go into one where would we end up

[ember storm]

Well those are pools of blight

They’re called Taken

They’re just points at which they can enter/exit the ascendant plane

[burnt birch]

Do we ever go to the ascendant plane in a campaign

[ember storm]

Reality is essentially like a stack of paper, different planes are separate on their own, but if you poked a hole through then there’s an opening

[ember storm]

Numerous times yes

[trim grotto]

A few times, yes.

[ember storm]

Most notably in the dreaming city

[trim grotto]

You can go there regularly via the Dreaming City

Waltz and I are sharing a braincell today

[ember storm]

I ate an egg

[burnt birch]

What are taken where do they come from

Obv the ascendant plane

But yk

[ember storm]

They don’t “originate” from anywhere naturally

They’re not born

Did you notice that taken are all just versions or already existing enemies

They’re called Taken Vandal, Taken Acolyte, Taken Psion, etc

They’re literally what the name says

[burnt birch]

I do now

[ember storm]

Already-existing forms of life that were taken to the ascendant plane and changed on a fundamental level

Their wills are stripped away and they’re “rendered to a more final shape” for what their master sees as useful or necessary

[burnt birch]

The witness?

[ember storm]

Yes

But it’s gone now

And nobody else has managed to take the reigns yet

Because taken are inextricably controlled, they’re just naturally drawn to whatever can effectively lead them

After Oryx died, Savathun had loose control over them for a bit

Then that went to Xivu Arath

Then the witness

Although the witness has always been their “ultimate” and first master, it hasn’t always been directing them out as armies and soldiers

That was mainly oryx for a long time

The taken had only directly served the witness’ interests for a few years now

[burnt birch]

Did the witness use the blight to change them ? Or weird witness powers

[ember storm]

The blight becomes part of them

The process has never been directly shown, we’ve only seen the beginning portion of when something is whisked away to the ascendant plane, and then the aftermath when they’ve been spat back out

There is a small series of lore tabs from the pov of enemies after they’ve been taken, though

Even nine years later they’re still relevant and insightful

For example:

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/the-taken-psion

[slim girder]

I thought the taken was what the witness saw as "perfected" either they are defeated by us and seen as useful by the witness or are taken alive by being ripped from their dimension like what oryx did to some cabal on phobos and an orge. Iirc we never saw the witness "take" anything themselves. Instead the taken just appeared wherever the witness had placed them and sometimes there were familiar figures amongst them like val ca uor from spire in season of the deep.

[unreal pecan]

anyone have the statement that is supposed to be savathun calling the books of sarrow a lie

[trim grotto]

Go out into the universe, my court
Gather tribute for me. Send it home to my ship.
When I call you, walk up that tribute to my court.
I will prepare for long voyages — [I am Savathûn, insidious]
Into the war — [I graffiti this notice for you]
Into the Deep — [These Books are full of lies!]

Now Oryx’s throne was safe from incursion, because it moved so nimbly.```
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xli-dreadnaught#books-of-sorrow

She isn't calling the entire thing a lie, but she's saying there are lies within it. At the very least, it was always a biased recounting.

Whether she's actually telling the truth or not is a whole different thing, of course.

[short badge]

What is cabal society like? Is it like human where one can join an army or is everyone part of it. And are psions still under enslavement by caitel?

[dim minnow]

After the fall of Torobatl, Caiatl freed them

[short badge]

So they have the choice to join?

[dim minnow]

Most likely

[tough kettle]

caiatl is a girlboss

[unreal pecan]

God this is perfect imbaru

[trim grotto]

Psions still fight under Caiatl's name. Some did leave, but many chose to stay.

[winter edge]

During the launch of D2,is Torabotl already destroyed?

Or is it only after Ghaul got packed?

[trim grotto]

After Ghaul. It was recent.

[winter edge]

Do we have any concept arts on Torabotl?

[trim grotto]

Not really. There is this though, representing the collapse of Torobatl at the hands of Xivu Arath.

[winter edge]

HOLY SHIT
XIVU IS MASSIVE

[trim grotto]

Don't take it too literally. It's referencing a classic painting.

[short badge]

Is the planet completely destroyed or is it just overrun with hive?

[heady monolith]

iirc its basically a wasteland

[trim grotto]

I don't believe we know that level of detail. I assume the actual planet still exists, though.

[short badge]

Probably, I heard caitel talking about retaking it someday

[cinder geode]

Probably like the moon I assume

[fresh zephyr]

Why didn't we ask the Witness about the Winnower

I feel like it would've answered so much

[ember storm]

If it even did it would be completely laced in bias

Also I highly doubt the witness would actually tell us anything

If we revealed we wanted to know something the witness would take the opportunity to use it against us

Either to lead us astray or use it like a carrot on a stick

[trim grotto]

Probably because it was more interested in ending the universe than chatting about a being that has only ever spoken to us via a text entry we can't verify

[slim girder]

What's crazy is I don't think this is an exaggeration. There is lore talking about the fall of torobatl and it definitely seems to paint the picture of xivu blocking out the sky as the invasion began. Might be our only glimpse into how powerful the hive god of war truly is.

Or "was" considering eris has now made her mortal.

[jagged badge]

That hasn’t effected her power

Just means that when she finally does die, she stays dead

[slim girder]

Really? I was under the assumption that because we had rendered her mortal and pushed her back constantly that she had definitely lost some of her power. Like I don't think she even has much sway over the taken anymore.

[ember storm]

Having control over taken is not in any way connected to sword logic and tithes

All of her armies are still generating her tribute and power

She’s not physically weaker in any way, just way more careful than she already was

[slim girder]

But the taken are attracted to power that can lead them right? And I think it's even said by characters like mara that xivu has gone into hiding and isn't as much of a threat anymore. After being cut off from her throne world.

[ember storm]

Xivu has been said to either not have the power or the need to lead them

Frankly I think she sees them as a dead end

They haven’t done anything good for her and even granting her strongest champion the power of the taken resulted in failure

Plus bungie said that Heresy will focus on a “new eldritch power”

Xivu never had direct command over the taken to begin with

She could only remotely create some with a fragmented shard of oryx’s sword and loaned the rest from the witness while she acted on its interests

The witness abandoned her after Lightfall

I don’t know where you got the “not much of a threat” thing from though

She is still definitively a very large issue

She’s the only remaining member of the osmium court that actively aligns with darkness and their worm gods

All hive outside of the lucent brood are under her command now

[slim girder]

Well obviously she is still a threat but as of the events of season of the witch it looked like xivu had now retreated and had been substantially weakened since now she has no safety net. Her mortality makes her less of a threat than beings at the time like the witness or even savathun to an extent.
And only now has she sort of reappeared with savathun talking about something "sister superior" said to her.

[ember storm]

arguably I say this makes her even more of a threat

Xivu is the literal god of war, which does not just translate into strength

Savathun is about cunning and trickery, Xivu is about strategy

Her mortal state means this has been dialed up to 11

Her situation is kind of like that of the vex collective now

She has the numbers and resources for direct confrontation, sure, but she won’t act unless she’s absolutely positive she will win

Instead of throwing her armies at us again and again for another year straight, she’s just taking a step back

Preparing

Waiting for the right opportunity

Us having other direct threats to deal with doesn’t make Xivu any less dangerous

It just means our confrontation with her is going to be the last, for better or worse

[dim minnow]

She knows that we don't even need to fight her head on

We can just find some way to go around her army and fight her directly

[ember storm]

Arguably she’s the strongest hive god we’ve had to face purely due to the existence of wrathborn

Conquering other races means you have an infinite amount of numbers that won’t harm your tribute lines through dying

Plus it can conquer machines and ai

[dim minnow]

I'd argue that Oryx was stronger, but I do believe that killing him had allowed his siblings to actually grow stronger so maybe Xivu has reached a point where she surpassed him.

[slim girder]

I do wonder what her plans are now. Again she seems to have spoken to savathun recently so who knows, maybe they are working together on something.
Savathun wants to learn the secret of shapes which I'm going to guess means darkness powers. And once again savathun spoke about a convincing argument from "sister superior" who I'm sure means xivu. But knowing savathun I doubt she is fully aligned with it and is just playing her own game.

Maybe this will all mean something in heresy. But I do also wonder if that eldritch power is because of an echo that hit the dreadnaught or if it's something else. Bungie told us what happened to the first 2 echoes but not the 3rd. Only that we'd be lead back to the dreadnaught..

[dim minnow]

I get the feeling that Bungie is slowly building up the Winnower

We gotbthe Nacre lore tab

Pretty much establishing that the Winnower is real

[slim girder]

Oh yeah absolutely and I have a belief this eldritch power will be our first ever glimpse into the power of the winnower possibly.

There's also a theory that with the dreadnaught we'd use that to take us outside of sol because of bungie talking about what if we were the navigators.

Something I really want to see though is what the winnower looks like. I'm half expecting a Cthulhu looking creature that is like impossible to comprehend but on the other hand I'm expecting something like how the witness first spoke to us using a mirror image of us.

[ember storm]

I don’t think it would even have one

If you take unveiling literally anyway

[slim girder]

That is also an option.

[devout vine]

Just a thought of my expectations...
I'm hoping there isn't just A Winnower...
But WinnowerS

But I think starting with the Winnower is where it will all be amazing
..
Since the Witness was its first knife

If that's the case, how many more knives are there?

[ember storm]

The witness only claimed to be the first knife

[slim girder]

Until it's otherwise stated I'm going to be treating the winnower and it's "knives" like the witness and it's disciples.

[ember storm]

It also said that it invented the concept of purpose

So

I’d take that with a grain of salt

[slim girder]

We don't know anything for sure yet

[devout vine]

What if there are other knives? And are as disillusioned as the witness was?

The witness claimed to be purpose incarnate

What about other beings I.e. knives of the winnower that wish to shape the universe in their own specific way?

[ember storm]

Eh I think knife is only really relevant to the witness

It grants all taken it reshapes with “knives” that give them their new forms and power

[slim girder]

We don't even know if the winnower even spoke to the witness or the precursors.
The winnower has said that there is always someone making its choice. Whether they know it or not.

[ember storm]

It sees itself as the first knife and all its followers as others

The witness was confirmed just created by the precursors doing what they thought they should

There was no outside contact or pressures

They just found the veil and did it

[slim girder]

But now according to the winnower it was also thinking the same thing. Again it says that someone is always its choice in darkness or in light.

At least that's how I look at it.

At some point down the line someones choices will align with the winnowers without them even knowing..

[ember storm]

Yeah but that’s not really anything directly related to the winnower

By its own admission the winnower is basically just some watching animal planet and going “I bet one of these things is going to resort to cannibalism”

it will eventually be proven right of course but it’s not really indicative of anything

It’s basically just some old thing that’s tried to copyright the concept of darwinism

[dim minnow]

The Winnower is said to be formless

[cinder geode]

Same with the gardener

[slim girder]

I think it's possible it has the power to take a form though. Just so it can maybe interact with us.
Like it could appear as a mist cloud or something.

[wispy karma]

Did we shove the witness into a weapon already?

[blazing wasp]

No, we just killed it I believe

[slim girder]

I think euphony has something to do with that but I truly don't know for sure.

[jagged badge]

Nope

[outer dragon]

Witness is probably never gonna be a weapon unless it convinces itself that we are the final knife

[covert stone]

Nah, players will finally get a flamethrower but its just the smoke coming off the Witness' head

[wispy karma]

As a trace rifle

[quiet herald]

Grenade launcher but we just shoot witness forehead

[wispy karma]

what is the microcosm?

the exotic trace rifle i mean

is the traveler in it?

is a part of them in it?

[devout vine]

Remember the traveller light beam shot at the witness?
In lightfall?

That but gun

https://tenor.com/view/death-star-gif-14758637425007366681

[wispy karma]

oh nice

[devout vine]

You'll have to ask the hard-core chroniclers more about the gun

[dim minnow]

The Traveler is a terraformer

it's related to how it is an entity of pure primordial Light

it is a shaper of the physical world

the beam it shot at the Witness' pyramid was a terraformation beam

which is why the Witness' Pyramid was damaged the way it was

the Microcosm trace rifle is said to be a weapon of similar nature

stated by Bungie to be directly based off of the Traveler's terraformation beam

so it can be assumed that the weapon works in a similar, but weaker way

it could explain why the weapon is more effective against shields

since the Pyramids are shown to be invulnerable to nearly everything we've seen but the Terraformation beam is shown to be very effective on them

[slender ether]

Popularmmos pfp???

[dim minnow]

hmmm

maybe it's why Microcosm is very effective on Dread in particular

[unreal pecan]

Aye it’s goated

[short badge]

Did any human groups ally with the fallen in the early days of the dark ages and fight against the rest of humanity? (Ping with answer)

[dim minnow]

Fallen were pretty dead set on killing humans so not likely

cases of Fallen enslaving captured humans is a possibility

but would probably be pretty rare

they were pretty brutal too

like how Rakis (Spider) would tears someone's limbs off one-by-one before crushing their skull in his fist

or like the burning of London

and Saint-14's claims of them eating children

though there are plenty who deny the claims, I doubt Saint would be lying

chances are it was something exclusive to the House of Rain that attacked the human settlement on Mercury

@short badge

we know that Rain died off a while ago so maybe they were not well off compared to the other Houses

which is really saying something

since there's never really a point where a Fallen House was ever "doing well" ever since the Whirlwind

[small quartz]

Does becoming an Exo hurt?

[trim grotto]

It would, were you not rendered comatose for the procedure. It involves bombarding your brain with severe radiation as part of the scan.

[dull raft]

Well, that was at least Clovis' method of choice, I seem to remember Maya using a safer brain scan technique to make Lakshmi?

[dim minnow]

she was using the Veil to do it

so it wasn't exactly a widely availible method

[dull raft]

Ah, I forgot that tiny detail

[dim minnow]

in fact, I'm pretty sure Lakshmi was the only exo "made" that way

it is worth noting that Lakshmi was a different exo before the Veil pretty much killed her like it did all other Exos that were on the Exodus Indigo

[hardy drum]

is shaxx a human

[civic quarry]

Wasn't that more like "putting a vex milk mixed with darkness into your head"?

[dim minnow]

that was a means to stop the Exo fro tearing their own body apart

[sick yew]

Technically unknown but strongly assumed

[civic quarry]

Honestly it would be very scary for an outsiders perspective (an advanced alien civilization that doesn't know about light and darkness) during TFS
"Something is fucking with our reality itself, and we can't find out the cause"

"It reconfigured and reverted back several times, and the interval between reconfiguration and reversion is getting longer"
"In other words, it might be the end of the universe as we know"
Meanwhile at the pale heart:

"IT'S LITERALLY NOW OR NEVER, FUCKING FIRE!"

[sick yew]

I dont think the Final Shape spread beyond earth in the Witnesses initial attempt

[dim minnow]

imagine if it was this

[trim grotto]

Not that part, no. The Exomind is technology built to house the human Mindscan, which is tempered by the Alkahest. The actual process of getting the Mindscan, which I was referring to, kills you with radiation.

[sick yew]

Breaking the canon by being the first ever animal lightbearer

[dim minnow]

more like a Tigerman

I use this example specifically because this concept art is what is believed to be the origin of the Brave insignia

[civic quarry]

Yeah even the fallen who got saved by drifter admitted that he was eating ppl pretty recently

[dim minnow]

seen with the BRAVE arsenal, the Hall of Champions, a few emblems related to Into the Light, and I thin Shaxx even wore a mask of it during the D1 FotL

this lends credence to my theory that Shaxx is a tigerman

[civic quarry]

Pretty sure during salvation's edge it spreaded beyond earth

[trim grotto]

Well, we saw unusual manifestations in places such as Mars, the Throne World, Neptune, so on.

[sick yew]

Nothing spread during salvations edge?
Unless you wiped at any point which would have meant doom for the entire universe anyway

But throughout the raid we continously delay the Final Shape

[civic quarry]

well there was a debuff about "witness is trying to reconfigure reality, you must stop it before it becomes unstoppable" during the day1

[trim grotto]

The manifestations I was referring to happened prior to the Raid, so echoes of whatever was happening occured before that.

In other words, yes, it did go beyond Earth.

[civic quarry]

yeah we had cabals, hive and fallen getting calcified and dissected

[sick yew]

True but I doubt it went beyond Sol in general

[trim grotto]

Hard to say, really.

[sick yew]

And far enough to somehow interact with a to us unknown race

[dim minnow]

Shaxx is a Tigerman there's no other explanation

[civic quarry]

well, witness was trying to calcify the entire reality, so... it's safe to assume that happened

[sick yew]

The Witness couldnt properly calcify anything besides a few smaller ish structures around sol

It tried to push the Final Shape once aka what you see in the FS opening cutscene

But the Traveler pushed back and continued to do so

[civic quarry]

nah it was calcifying entire species and their planets one by one back then

and connecting the veil and using traveler was much faster way to do it rather than doing it one by one

[sick yew]

Youre referring to the statues in 2nd encounter I take it? Well yeah thats not the final shape tho

[dim minnow]

Entelechy does show the Witness reshaping an entire species in a matter of I think minutes

[sick yew]

I mean we know the Witness has been hunting the Traveler for untold eons so it makes sense that more than a handful of species bit the dust along the way

[sick yew]

I thought you were specifically referring to the Final Shape being noticed by random species that didnt know what the hell was going on and never met either light or dark before

[civic quarry]

Rubicon lore says it was more than "a handful"

[dim minnow]

I'm pretty sure it is stated that the statue things you see in the lost Ghost quests are manifestations of the Final Shape

[sick yew]

Makes sense

[sick yew]

Damn I didnt know 621 was in Destiny

idk if anyone got that ref

[civic quarry]

LMAO (Holy Shit, Is that an Armored Core reference?!?!) , in that lore some poor fucker that participated in ritual says "A thousand worlds in ashes."

[sick yew]

Yeye I was making an Armored Core reference

Cause in the newest one the planet is also called Rubicon

[civic quarry]

I'm pretty sure that lore was named after "crossing the rubicon river" stuff

because that's what the precursors did, by fusing themselves into witness

[sick yew]

for sure I was just making a throwaway reference

[sick yew]

Now that I think of it an AC would be a banger raidboss

Tho if they were even remotely close to how they move ingame theyd be impossible to kill

[slim girder]

Unless it behaved like the oryx fight or even riven where it's confined to one area and the massive boss is just trying to crush you.

Something like argos as well. Where you're just rotating around the boss.

[sick yew]

Im not speaking gameplay wise

But how would you as a guardian possibly fight a proper AC

These things are armed to the fucking teeth, twice the size of your average house and still fast as shit

[slim girder]

Yeah destiny humanity would most likely be done for.
Only defence I could really think of would be a barrage from Rasputin. But he's not alive anymore.

[sick yew]

True but its not like we have seen ACs easily dodge orbital lasers

Theyre so insanely quick

https://tenor.com/view/armored-core-mecha-science-fiction-machine-action-game-gif-17341694248436156388

You can see it quite well here

[slim girder]

Rasputin was able to destroy the almighty so he could definitely cover an area large enough to where there'd be no escape but the level of destruction just to destroy 1 AC would just be a very poor use of resources.

[sick yew]

Well you need to remember that the Almighty was just falling towards earth on a predictable course

[blazing wasp]

ACs are basically just heavily armored V1 units

Which are units designed to handle fucking colossus beasts on their own

[sick yew]

Yup

And honestly even if there was someone who could hold their own against them
Once you call in Balteus its over

https://tenor.com/view/armored-core-armored-core-mech-mecha-gif-9444072778134407134

[blazing wasp]

A heavily armored V1 units sounds horrifying actually when you think how scary V1 already is

[sick yew]

V1 as in the homie from Ultrakill?

[blazing wasp]

Yes

[sick yew]

Theres a uhm

[warped karma]

im here

[sick yew]

slight hight difference

[blazing wasp]

V1, if you're not familiar with the lore, was designed explicitly to single handedly handle one or several of the earthmovers.

[warped karma]

V1 parries

[blazing wasp]

without weapons

[warped karma]

literally

[blazing wasp]

Some fucking metal lunatic powered by actual fucking blood moving at mach-fucktillion

[sick yew]

I have played Ultrakill yes

[warped karma]

minos boss fight

"slight" height difference

[sick yew]

Oh you mean corpse minos

[blazing wasp]

Have you seen the earthmover

[warped karma]

im at the fight atm

i am aware yes 😭

[blazing wasp]

Lore accurate V1 apparently 1v1s them, without guns

Just... Take that fact in for a second, given the fight

Now imagine one with heavy armor, flying, and more guns.

[sick yew]

Heres a random thought

Shouldnt Oryx be called the Taking King instead of the Taken King

[dim minnow]

He took himself after we beat him in Regicide

[sick yew]

Yeah but by then he was already known as the Taken King right?

[dim minnow]

Also even before that he was still "king of the Taken"

[sick yew]

I shall ignore that

I think he should be the Taking King instead

sounds cooler

[jagged badge]

Does it?

[thick bluff]

Either way, we put him in a box

Also, oryx is transgender, he started out as one of 3 sisters

[trim grotto]

What's the relevance of that to his title?

[empty fern]

A fun fact

[tough kettle]

yup, he is trans... what of it?

[frosty belfry]

lore of microcosm? lore of tresspasser? also why is the shinobu’s vow logo in the devil’s lair strike and grasp of avarice

[dim minnow]

the logo on Shinobu's Vow is the main logo seen for the Cosmodrome

and the reason why Shinobu has it on her gauntlets could be because she was part of the Six Coyotes, a legendary group of Hunters who were the first to scout the Cosmodrome

the Microcosm lore tab is about the Traveler's perspective of it meeting humanity and terraforming Mars

refer to the cutscene that plays for New Lights with the astronauts on Mars

as for Tresspasser, I believe the lore tab for it refers to Ikora venturing into the derelict Leviathan which can be seen in the Moon's orbit

the weapon (originally from D1) was brought into D2 during Season of the Haunted which was when Calus returned and brought his ship, the Leviathan, to the Moon so he can commune with the Lunar Pyramid

during these events, Nightmares were manifesting aboard the Leviathan

in order to stop Calus, we had to dispel the Nightmares

at some point, Ikora would go there where she encountered a Nightmare of Cayde-6 which acted as a manifestation of her regrets and doubts related to his death

[dim minnow]

oh and Devil's lair strike and Grasp of Avarice are both in the Cosmodrome so that is why the logo is there

got that @frosty belfry ?

[unreal pecan]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/crucible-introduction

[frosty belfry]

yes

[unreal pecan]

What’s everyone’s opinion on shaxx saying You wanna live? You're gonna have to prove it.

If we still assume as a axiom the sword logic is fighting to prove your existence

Is this just a direct example of us using sword logic?

[dim minnow]

I feel that Shaxx is referring to the fact that everything else wants us dead so we have to fight back to survive

not exactly Sword Logic but does run along side it a bit

[unreal pecan]

So assuming this is still our axiom (not saying it is the official definition, this is for the exercise) we’d be preforming it right?

Which i just assume it’s universal that we’d be fallowing it but maybe you all know of a statement saying guardians can’t fallow sword logic?

[dim minnow]

if you put it in the most broad of terms, then one can say we follow it

but we don't adhere to the Hive's take on it

[trim grotto]

Not even a little. He just means you have to fight to survive.

[dim minnow]

the Hive follow the Sword Logic in a very aggressive way by actively searching and fighting other species

which we do not do

we are more defensive fighting the aggressors

[unreal pecan]

If we fallow the axiom I presented, it would tho no? Or do you still have a issue with it

[dim minnow]

so if you consider Sword Logic as broad as simply fighting to exist, then perhaps

but as the Hive practice it? not at all

the Hive see it more as kill things and get stronger

[unreal pecan]

Not referring to the religious practice

[unreal pecan]

I’m purely referring to the law of the universe and giving it this definition for this exercise

As too see if there is anything to contradict the possibility we can have sword logic if we fallow its laws and or commandments

[dim minnow]

well you see, when we killed Oryx, we had the opportunity to take his throne and pwer for ourselves

and we refused

[trim grotto]

The sword logic is not to fight to survive. It is to test your existence against the rest of existence. Anything that you kill deserved to die, and both you and the universe are stronger for it, you have refined existence.

What Shaxx is saying is you must fight if you want to live. Both involve combat, but they're conceptually different at their core.

[dim minnow]

yeah, some intersection, but not entirely the same

also given that the Sword Logic is favored by the Winnower, I'd think that it goes against us a bit as well

[unreal pecan]

Ok I thank you both but

[dim minnow]

it's more... selfish perhaps

[unreal pecan]

Neither of you are fallowing the axiom it seems

Which is what I’m trying to stress

[trim grotto]

I don't agree with what you posited. It is thoroughly too simplified.

[unreal pecan]

And when I say axiom I mean, it is something that is always 100% true for the exercise

[dim minnow]

keep in mind that the Winnower is if I'm correct the CEO of Sword Logic

[unreal pecan]

That’s completely fine, I don’t even fully agree with the definition I bestowed it, what is important tho is it’s broad enough the guardian can fit it so it works for the thought exercise

[dim minnow]

and the Sword Logic is a key product of its ideals

[trim grotto]

If I assume the thing I am trying to disagree with is true, which I do not think is true, then yes, what you said could be correct. But I don't agree with it, so I cannot say that it is.

[dim minnow]

the Sword Logic is inherently self-serving and is antithetical to how we Guardians operate

[unreal pecan]

What my question is boiling down to as “if we 100% fallow the rules of sword logic like toland, is there anything in lore that would prevent us”

[unreal pecan]

That’s fine

It’s a thought exercise

It’s like the people tied on railroad exercise

You don’t wanna necessarily agree with the rules layed out

But for the sake of a exercise you do

[dim minnow]

the Sword Logic is inherently against what we stand for

we are all about cooperation

Sword Logic is inherently against that

[trim grotto]

As in, what could halt us from following the logic of the sword? Apart from anything capable of besting us, then yes, and that'd be the Traveler.
Our existence is already contrary to the Sword Logic. We rely on the Traveler, which means we are weak and should be culled by that same logic.
We would need to rid ourselves of our Ghosts and our Light.

[unreal pecan]

Hive work together, there can be some for of cooperation

[dim minnow]

not exactly in a constructive way

their society is basiaclly a pyramid scheme

[unreal pecan]

Ok I’m a round about way

[dim minnow]

the Hive Gods hold all the power

[trim grotto]

Therein lies the irony. However, they do not do it for the betterment of one another or the protection of their lesser.

[unreal pecan]

You gave me the exact answer I needed

Wait but the worms are a gift

Torabotle is a gift

You can be gifted something and still fallow the sword logic

[dim minnow]

Torobatl was Savathun proving to Xivu Arath that she is a hypocrite

she knew full well that she would take it even if it was presented as a gift

[unreal pecan]

Exactly

Soooo why can’t you be gifted thing and have sword logic?

[trim grotto]

And for that they were cursed to be vessels of strength for the Worm Gods.

It was no gift.

It was a curse.

[dim minnow]

also I'm pretty sure this idea is part of the reason why Oryx was able to kill Akka

[unreal pecan]

So as long as the gift has an alternative motive it’s fine?

[dim minnow]

since the Worm Gods gave their spawn to the Hive, it meant thaty they would be weaker

[trim grotto]

The gift was a selfish tool that strengthened the gifter
Both Torobatl and the Worm Parasites follow this rule

[unreal pecan]

Ok ye I’m not saying how getting a gift means you break the sword logic and can never use it again

[dim minnow]

I think it's moreso being the gifter makes you weaker

and maybe also accepting gifts is for the bitchmade

[unreal pecan]

We know that’s not true, because Xivu would have noticed

[trim grotto]

There is also a lot of notable hypocrisy within Hive society for Sword Logic though, so keep that in mind. They aren't pure.

[unreal pecan]

But instead she was empowered and savathun was empowered

[dim minnow]

Xivu didn't notice because she is dumb and too loyal to the Sword Logic

[trim grotto]

Savathûn did it to forward her plans in Sol, not for the benefit of Xivu Arath.

[unreal pecan]

They notice when they become weaker, it’s directly stated that oryx feels his worm gnaw at his essence

[unreal pecan]

xivu still didn’t get weaker

[dim minnow]

isn't that more of Oryx being curious?

[trim grotto]

Xivu was summoned and brought her own war

She still stayed true to her nature

[unreal pecan]

How’s oryx worm gnawing at his very essence because he was failing to feel the worm and growing weak, a sign of oryx being curious?

[unreal pecan]

She accepted tora then did war

She should have felt a surge of weakness there

I agree gifting someone something as a evil gift most likely makes you stronger

Like it made savathunf stronger, the worms stronger, rhulk stronger

[dim minnow]

Oryx has to follow his nature as part of his bargain with the worm gods

that nature is to satisfy his curiosity

[unreal pecan]

Ok I’m fallowing

All ears

[dim minnow]

perhaps the point is that Xivu Arath is too loyal to the Sword Logic that she doesn't see any of its glaring flaws

[unreal pecan]

Sorry is this the whole reasoning for oryx’s curiosity means oryx doesn’t know when he’s growing weak

I don’t wanna be rude and attack the statement

[dim minnow]

I'm saying that there is more to the Hive gods power than simply them following the Sword Logic

[unreal pecan]

Oh hm

Well I thank you both

[dim minnow]

The Hive God's each took in a morph that related to their respective natures

[unreal pecan]

You’re given me a lot to think on

[dim minnow]

And following their nature also give them power

But not following it works against them

[trim grotto]

My responses were limited because I'm still at work and on mobile
Hopefully we can catch each other when I'm actually home, have free time, a keyboard, and can source things

[small quartz]

Whyre the Hive Worms

[trim grotto]

They aren't

[dim minnow]

Xivu Arath must wage war, Savathun must be cunning, and Oryx must navigate

[small quartz]

oh

then who are

[dim minnow]

The worms are a separate species that the Hive ingest

[unreal pecan]

The worms are a symbiotic

[dim minnow]

The worms are how Hive harness Sword Logic

[trim grotto]

Parasite Worms were created from Xita, the Mother Worm, Mother of the Worm Gods. These Parasite Worms are what provide the Hive with their power upon enacting Sword Logic and feeding the Worms ontological death.

[small quartz]

who ar the big worms?

[dim minnow]

Worm Gods

[small quartz]

right

[dim minnow]

The source of the worms the Hive ingest

[small quartz]

weird

[trim grotto]

Anyway I've got to go again
I'll be home in like
An hour or two

[small quartz]

have any Species in Destiny "Evolved"

[unreal pecan]

They are these ancient, being that came from this realm called the deep.

[trim grotto]

The Deep isn't a realm
It's an analogy for Darkness

[dim minnow]

Depends on what tou mean by evolve

[small quartz]

Evolve as in

Changed form to adapt

change their biological form

[unreal pecan]

A realm is just a plane of existence

[dim minnow]

Still a little broad

[small quartz]

Okay uh

like

i give up idk

[dim minnow]

Like a biological transformation?

[small quartz]

Yes

[dim minnow]

Maybe Lucent Brood

[small quartz]

lucent brood?

[trim grotto]

It's still referring to Darkness as a force as opposed to a literal place

[unreal pecan]

The worms don’t change their biologies physical appearance

[dim minnow]

Lucent Brood are Savathun's Hive

[small quartz]

theres different hives?

[unreal pecan]

Oh the deep is definitely a physical place

[dim minnow]

Different broods

[small quartz]

explain

[dim minnow]

Same species, but different leaders

[small quartz]

how do they come about

[trim grotto]

No, it isn't.

[small quartz]

what changes

[unreal pecan]

Yes, the way the hive get their forms, is

1. Sword logic causes you to adapt
   2.their morphs

[small quartz]

Sword Logic?

[unreal pecan]

Yes oryx grew wings

[small quartz]

??

what

[unreal pecan]

https://youtu.be/nYKLdj7J7_Q?si=nG86xL6rbeogG3pe

Watch this

[dim minnow]

They form under the leadership of particularly powerful individual Hive

[unreal pecan]

It will give you a nice visual

[trim grotto]

The ontological framework through which the Parasites strengthen their Hive
Kill thing, gross worm make you stronger

[dim minnow]

Some broods are offshoots of one of the three largest ones

[small quartz]

"Gross Worm Make You Stronger" that explains it perfectly

thank you Mael

[unreal pecan]

What makes you think the deep is a metaphor for a area where the darkness is

[small quartz]

arguing with mael is crazy

[unreal pecan]

Questioning

Yes

Gotta make sure i understand

[dim minnow]

The three primary broods are Oryx's, Savathun's, and Xivu Arath's since they are the three original Hive gods

[small quartz]

Dovad question

[dim minnow]

Aye

[small quartz]

what do YOU think is the coolest thing in the lore

[dim minnow]

Hmmm

Can't say for certain, but I find the psychology of alien species (mainly Hive and Vex) to be very interesting

[small quartz]

Psychology?

do tell

[dim minnow]

Hive society was formed over the course of billions of years

Built around the Sword Logic

Their morality is built around it too

The Hive believe that love and war are one in the same

[small quartz]

intruiging

[unreal pecan]

They can engrave things into their soul

[dim minnow]

Hive are fundamentally very alien to us on a mental level

[unreal pecan]

And these aspects can be transferred to other individuals

Such as being a accented hive

[dim minnow]

But it is interesting that there is one point where human and Hive morality intersect ironically enough

[small quartz]

oh

?

[dim minnow]

We both look down upon necromancy

[small quartz]

why do we

[unreal pecan]

For vastly different reasons tho

[dim minnow]

(Exlcuding Nokris and how brood, but they were booted by Oryx because of it)

[unreal pecan]

Do you think someone bringing your parents back to life is good?

[dim minnow]

Sort of, but not technically

[small quartz]

yes?

[unreal pecan]

So you want your parents rotting corps

[dim minnow]

We both see it as something unnatural

[unreal pecan]

To be around?

[small quartz]

sure if theyre normal

[unreal pecan]

Consider this

Their brain is damaged, their body is decaying, they’d feel and taste the decay

They’d feel the damage in there brain

[dim minnow]

Nokris' necromancy isn't really talked about much, but if his experiments with the Headless Ones is anything to go by, it can be assumed that they are rather horrific

[unreal pecan]

Sense the disconnection in there nerves

[small quartz]

Do tell

[unreal pecan]

We know it includes the words of the hive language

[dim minnow]

The Hive think that necromancy goes against the Sword Logic since someone who dies should stay dead

[small quartz]

fascinating

[dim minnow]

While there is some difference I how it is perceived, the reason why Hive and Humanity have distaste towards it is similar

[unreal pecan]

I’d like to add the wording of “they believe death is failing to prove your existence in this world, hence bringing yourself back is a disgrace to the idea”

[trim grotto]

Not an area, just Darkness in general.

In the same way that the Light is referred to as the Sky

[unreal pecan]

The light is in the sky….

The traveler is always in the sky…..

[small quartz]

but it isnt the actual sky

the sky is just another name for it

it doesnt make up the actual sky

[dim minnow]

The Witness' species found the Traveler buried in the ground...

[unreal pecan]

It takes place within the sky

[small quartz]

Woah

[unreal pecan]

Hence when you look up to the sky, you look to where the traveler lives

[trim grotto]

Light is referred to as the Sky. Dark is referred to as the Deep. They're opposites under the same metaphor.

[small quartz]

^

[unreal pecan]

Except the deep is described to be a place you can live

They went to the deep to talk to the worm gods

[dim minnow]

More of a metaphor I think

[unreal pecan]

Oryx communed with the deep

[small quartz]

Oryx communed with the darkness

[dim minnow]

The deep = the Winnower which is a formless being

[small quartz]

whats the Veils connection to the WInnower

[trim grotto]

Oryx communed with Darkness. The Worm Gods were simply literally deep in the ocean, which is probably where the metaphor began.

[unreal pecan]

The winnower ain’t formless

[trim grotto]

It was then. Meta wise, that is.

[unreal pecan]

He contains a form of dimensionality

[trim grotto]

The Witness wasn't written until roughly BL era.

[small quartz]

Mael does the Veil look like a Yam to you

[trim grotto]

I hadn't exactly considered that before but sure

[dim minnow]

It is described as such, Oryx needed to offer up an ogre to act as a vessel for it

[unreal pecan]

** We did not live. We existed as principles of ontological dynamics that emerged from mathematical structures, as bodiless and inevitable as the primes.**

[small quartz]

The Brownish Grey Outside
The Purple Inside

[dim minnow]

Yeah, bodiless

[unreal pecan]

Coming from a mathematical structure inherently means you have form

[dim minnow]

Meaning formless

[unreal pecan]

Oh we just mean something different as formless

When I say formless I associate it as you do not exists on the realm of physics

[unreal pecan]

Like Platonic ideas

[small quartz]

its actually so similar 😭

[dim minnow]

I mean, the Winnower is a set of ideas really

[small quartz]

whats its connection to the veil

[unreal pecan]

To the what

[small quartz]

the winnower brah

[dim minnow]

The Veil seems to be a missing part of the Gardener

[unreal pecan]

Don’t know

[small quartz]

Oh?

[dim minnow]

The Traveler is stated to be the Gardener

[unreal pecan]

The winnower isn’t even confirmed to be real who what it is

The witness would have reason to lie

Giving its motives a false god for us to appeal to

[dim minnow]

And there is a lot of implication that the Veil was once one with the Traveler

[unreal pecan]

I think it’s most likely the tree of silver wings

But Purely theory

NO PROOF

and I’m mostly likely wrong

[trim grotto]

We've seen a number of Trees
They're neither Light nor Dark but can absorb either

[small quartz]

whats so special about the Ironwood Tree

in the tower

[dim minnow]

I don't even think we've had a full explanation of what those trees even are

[trim grotto]

It represents the Ironlords

[small quartz]

ohhh

[dim minnow]

Just a monument to companionship

[trim grotto]

This one in particular is also covered in Commendations

[small quartz]

epic

would the Colonels lifespan be extended?

with the traveler around

[dim minnow]

Probably not

[small quartz]

oh

[dim minnow]

I don't think the Traveler directly extends one's life

Not counting Ghosts

[small quartz]

well now im sad

because Chickens live for 5-10 years

lightbearer chicken...

Im really surprised we have 0 Lightbearer animals

[green cobalt]

hive lightbearers are already pretty stupid i doubt animals would do anything in the traveler's favor

[dim minnow]

I mean, if the Hive as a whole start growing more individualistic then maybe we can get some more on our side like Luzaku

[sick yew]

Yes

[tough kettle]

i doubt luzaku will be the only "friendly" hive

i do want to see more with their own ideals

and motivations

[dim minnow]

I want to summon Alak-Hul to fight alongside us

[sick yew]

Generational teamup

[twilit vapor]

what would Nokris think of hive lightbearers if he was still alive? 🤔

[sick yew]

Hed probably be mad they used to hate his ass for such heresy

And now they come back from the dead themselves

[twilit vapor]

yea probably lmao

didnt oryx used to despise the idea of resurrection? even tho he used it to gain power by killing his sisters?

[sick yew]

got no idea from that on cause hive lore doesnt interest me much

[twilit vapor]

oh :(

what lore does interest you?

[trim grotto]

It's all contextual

Oryx does not despise resurrection, per se. Elsewise he wouldn't use his Throne.

He despises Necromancy and decrees it to be heresy because you are bringing something else back to life. It died, it deserved to die, and unlike a Throne World, it is not its own power returning it to life.

When any other Ascendant Hive dies, they return to life via their Throne World, which is a power they themselves earned. Necromancy brings back those who did not earn their return. Same reason why we, as Lightbearers, are heretical by nature. We do not earn our resurrections.

[twilit vapor]

ohhh okay that makes way more sense

[sick yew]

Pretty much everything else lmfao
As long as its not hive related

[twilit vapor]

bro just hates the hive

[tough kettle]

not earned, but destined, each ghost has a specific person to resurrect. i always wondered how that worked

why is it that these certain people are brought back, why were they 'chosen'

[twilit vapor]

me too like how does a ghost know which one is “the one”

[trim grotto]

Well, that's simple. They can feel the "spark", the connection. They inherently know their chosen once they scan it.

[trim grotto]

Even to this day, we don't truly know. There's the Guardian ethos of sacrifice, bravery, death, but that...

https://tenor.com/view/guidlines-pirates-of-the-caribbean-hector-babossa-georffrey-rush-gif-7844913

[fiery rover]

our heart is actually a shard of the traveller xD

[tough kettle]

ah, one of the things i always wondered about can't be answered. this isn't one of those things that would be best mysterious to me XD

[fiery rover]

i wanna know what xivu arath looks like

[tough kettle]

you never saw her?

[trim grotto]

If Destinypedia is good for one thing, it is reference images.

[twilit vapor]

the khvostov lore entry is from the perspective of our ghost right? thats insane he has been looking for us for that many years

[trim grotto]

All Ghosts were made at once at the end of the Collapse. All partnerless Ghosts have been searching that long.

Untold centuries

[twilit vapor]

right but thats our ghost right?

[trim grotto]

Presumably, going by the context of it being Khvostov

[sick yew]

Khvostov is canonically our gun ye?

[tough kettle]

it seems so

[fiery rover]

it is the cutscene gun lol

[sick yew]

I mean it is a mass produced weapon so its not unlikely more than us have one but generally speaking

[twilit vapor]

im just assuming its our ghost speaking because of the desc being the first thing our ghost says to us

[trim grotto]

Yeah context suggests it is

[trim grotto]

Yeah it's our gun

[tough kettle]

i only know how you obtain the exotic khvostov in d1, but the exotic one you actually have to find parts for so that specific one is canonically the guardian's

its like the same thing in d2 but different i guess?

[sick yew]

I mean we also build the exotic khvostov ourselvs sortof

[fiery rover]

is devrim kay's rifle an in game weapon that can be obtained?

[trim grotto]

Yesn't

[fiery rover]

i was lookin at it yesterday

[trim grotto]

It's No Land Beyond, from Destiny 1

[sick yew]

Not in d2 rn ye

[trim grotto]

An Exotic sniper

[fiery rover]

ahhh oh wow

[trim grotto]

anyway time to be an adult and mow my lawn

i'll return in like 15 minutes

[sick yew]

heh

[small quartz]

big lawn

[trim grotto]

i've been back for ages

but nobody talked lore so

[small quartz]

lol

Uh okay Mael

whats the darkest thing in Destiny

(Dont say the darkness istg)

[trim grotto]

hmm
well there's a lot of things to choose from but here's something emotional

Emperor Calus, upon seeing how much his daughter Caiatl cared for her pet Warbeast, Milos, had the beast slaughtered because she cared for it more than he.

[small quartz]

oh...

what a shit dad

anything else

[twilit vapor]

the red war was pretty dark if you think about it

[trim grotto]

A Ghost in the Last City during the Red Legion occupation refused to leave their dead Guardian's side. They finally felt the Light return to them, and just as they did... bang.

[small quartz]

... thats ffucked up

[warped karma]

bang as in ghost went boom?

[trim grotto]

indeed

[warped karma]

oh my

[ember storm]

Zavala and Shaxx had to sit through a play written and directed by the star, which was called Oryx the Nightmare Daddy

[trim grotto]

As did Ophiuchus, Ghost, and Ghost.

[ember storm]

Go mow your lawn

[trim grotto]

it is mowed

[ember storm]

Do it more

[trim grotto]

it is midnight

[ember storm]

Perfect opportunity

[slim girder]

Swarmers lore tab talks about how a vex hydra took an entire generation of children away from the neomuni while they were inside the cloudark.

[trim grotto]

++We live on the edge of a war—
—a war between Formless and Form++
++between the Deep and the Sky—

++MY EYES ARE WIDE, MY GAZE IS LONG++

—Across the universe, as far as I see++
++the Sky works to charge its fires—
—and the Deep drowns the ash++

—Sky builds gentle places, safe for life++
++Beloved Fundament, refuge of trillions—
—The Sky treasures this rich place++

—BUT THE DEEP IS HERE WITH US—

++Cold logic tests our walls—
—The Deep claims its dominion++
++A ruthless, final age —```
Exerpt from `Verse 1:8 — Leviathan` of the Books of Sorrow.
I'm using this as a reference to explain that the Deep is not a singular physical place. The Leviathan is referring to the Deep in a way that is analogous to Darkness, as Sky is to Light.
The Worm Gods and Leviathan use this as a metaphor, fitting for beings trapped/living in an ocean world, but a metaphor it nevertheless is.
The Leviathan explains that the Sky and Deep are active across the universe, and in this metaphor, the Traveler is taking the role of the Sky.

Now, in the era of the Books of Sorrow, it is worth remembering how nebulous the Darkness was in a meta context, as the writers didn't have a solid definition. The further into the Books of Sorrow you go, you see that the Deep is used in a similarly nebulous manner. It is the depths of Fundament, it is a being, it is a force, it is Darkness. It is presented as though it were an entity in and of itself, which would travel and destroy.

```He went out and he created an altar and he prepared an unborn ogre. He called on the Deep, saying:

I can see you in the sky. You are the waves, which are battles, and the battles are the waves. Come into this vessel I have prepared for you.

And it arrived, the Deep Itself.```
Exerpt from `Verse 4:1 — battle made waves`
```But while Oryx traveled to observe the Deep destroy an ancient fortress world, Crota conspired with his sisters to learn their secrets.```
Exerpt from `Verse 4:8 — The partition of death`
```“Then I must be a better king,” Oryx said. “If they want to build an emperor for all outcomes, then I will be the king of only one. I will follow the Deep wherever it goes, and document its power. Let us create a catalog of the grave of worlds, which will be our map to victory.”```
Exerpt from `Verse 4:10 — An Emperor For All Outcomes`

Indeed, in `Verse 5:7 — Forever And A Blade`, Oryx explicitly states the Deep to be Darkness, which again is represented as an entity in the Books.
```I don’t know where the Darkness-which-is-the-Deep came from, nor the Traveler that I hunt. But I will learn. I will learn.```

Now, the Deep is also said to be something one can *enter*, which would be where your concept of it being a place comes from, at least partially. 
```Then Oryx says, listen my siblings, do you know what we have done? We have conquered our way to the edge of the Deep. It whispers to me when I call on it, and it guides my flight. It says that we are at its threshold and that I should come inside.

I will go and speak to it.```
Exerpt from `Verse 4:0 — a golden amputation`
However, we can see that even here, it is represented as an entity. A being that one can communicate with. Keeping in mind once more the meta context that the Darkness had no form at this time, we can examine these vague descriptions through the power of retrospect. 

A distinct possibility is that what was actually occurring here was that Oryx was entering a Pyramid of the Black Fleet of the Witness, and communing with the Witness itself. Given that we know it travelled and destroyed worlds, and keeping scenarios like the Eliksni relics aboard the Dreadnaught in mind, there are a number of pieces that fit quite well if we were to picture our mysterious Deep as the Witness and its Black Fleet, *as well* as a more general coverall for Darkness.

Hopefully that explains my position more adequately than my prior, phone-bound, still-at-work conversation did, @unreal pecan.

and now i sleep

goodnight

oh also @knotty musk here you go too

[knotty musk]

I understand all this but using the label deep for a metaphor rather a place is quite misleading unfortunately

[trim grotto]

true but the books of sorrow are quite old

nobody knew what they were actually making at the time

seth dickinson was also, uh
not entirely coherent for the writing of it

[knotty musk]

still, with segments like “I will follow the deep wherever it goes” making it hard to believe it’s a place

also is this leviathan an upper hive god or is it calus’ ship

[trim grotto]

'twas the being that guarded the Worm Gods back on Fundament

it is also where that giant bone that Rhulk has in his Pyramid comes from

by guarded i mean more imprisoned by the by
like a warden

[knotty musk]

I recall that, I felt like it was a trophy from a hunt, like keeping ahamkara bones from the great hunt, rather than the bone of one specific entity, was there only one leviathan?

[trim grotto]

Only one that we know of
Some argue it was, like Ahsa, a Proto-Worm. I, personally, do not see the similarities.

The Leviathan actually survived the encounter with Rhulk
He tore the bone from its rib cage, however

The Worm Gods consumed the beast later when the Hive began to rise though

[knotty musk]

proto worm meaning like, early in the worm life cycle? or a side species

[trim grotto]

TL;DR, Worm God but without the eeeeviiiil

What they were before this corruption overtook their species

[ember storm]

https://tenor.com/view/the-deep-the-boys-gif-26305579

The deep

[knotty musk]

ahsa is whale and not a worm? does the evil wormify them?

[ember storm]

Darkness mutated their bodies

[knotty musk]

[ember storm]

You know how krill weren’t as disgusting and crusty as hive are now

[knotty musk]

hey! exoskeletons are cool

[trim grotto]

Not too far off

To be clear this is fanart but it uses the silhouette you can see in the Dungeon

More clear imagery

[ember storm]

Question is

What’s the long boy in the soup

[trim grotto]

Ahsa is

[ember storm]

Titan has always shown two distinct kinds of sea monsters

[knotty musk]

reminds me of squids and whales, mildly poetic to have aspects of both in the silhouette

[ember storm]

The thing seen on the waves is very clearly not her

It’s the classic sea serpent monster

Very much now ahsa

[knotty musk]

can confirm. there does seem something much bigger out in the distance during gotd

[trim grotto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0z7koFxsMc

[ember storm]

Don’t believe what the vanguard tells you

I hold out hope

https://preview.redd.it/hygy80kfntx11.png?width=1919&format=png&auto=webp&s=91234d062281656a6428744aae1b638ff3207a27

[ember storm]

The underwater silhouettes have always been Ahsa

[knotty musk]

is drifter truly part of the vanguard

[ember storm]

It was a big and fat worm like shape even in vanilla

[trim grotto]

that's ahsa

[ember storm]

The thing on the surface is the classic sea serpent monster you’d see prowling just under the waves

Which I don’t think Ahsa has been characterized as doing

[trim grotto]

could just be a big fishy

[ember storm]

But I want to SEE the big fish

Like those giant flying things on Venus

[trim grotto]

Batadactyl!

anyway i really need sleep bye

actually one last thing

Sloane: [sighs] Not much cover at seafloor. Before Ahsa, they tried.

Drifter: Doesn't sound so bad. Open space, cozy long-girl. How'd you sleep?

Sloane: Like a lamb in power armor — stay on mission! And don't call her that.```
there were big fishies down there

also another long-girl

Drifter: See? It grows on you.```

[slim girder]

Are we sure it's ahsa? Looking at them both ahsa appears a bit shorter to me and iirc in the intro for season of the deep, ahsa had a different body shape.

Ahsa looks like the alien equivalent of a whale (or hive worm according to lore) but the serpent in gotd looked more like some kind of giant eel.

[oak oxide]

Other than Saint's headbutt to the Kell of Devils. What was another gruesome death to an enemy force akin to a ortal MK fatality?

[outer dragon]

No
Germaine is just a shrimple Lightbearer
Not even technically a Guardian, at least not referred to as one

[knotty musk]

he wouldn’t be a guardian no, he’s not too fond of the light so makes sense he wouldn’t protect the traveller

[ember storm]

You say as he was literally at the forefront of humanity during excision

Drifter’s days as a cowardly rat man in a basement are very much over

Now he’s a top asset to the vanguard, close to Eris and us, and still living in the basement

[dim minnow]

there was an entire lore book page where Saladin brutally slaughters a room full of human bandits

one of them gets bisected vertically with an upward slash of his axe

[oak oxide]

https://tenor.com/view/doom-doom-eternal-doomguy-doom-slayer-doom-guy-shotgun-gif-27413588

[dim minnow]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/iv-few-words-between-them#book-acts-of-mercy

[trim grotto]

Yes
There's a reference image above what you're replying to

[empty fern]

Worm posting

[dim minnow]

ah yes, the full body of Ahsa made up from several screenshots of her stitched together

[empty fern]

[bronze vortex]

Dumb theory but it could be spoilers somehow

||Is it just me? Or have I noticed that not only do we now have a complete vanguard with Crow being the new Hunter Vanguard, there isn't one that is Exo

It used to be Cayde/Exo/Hunter, Ikora/Human/Warlock, and Zavala/Awoken/Titan

Now it's Crow/Awoken/Hunter, Ikora/Human/Warlock, and Zavala/Awoken/Titan

Do y'all think Zavala would die or step down as Vanguard, which causes Saint-14 (Who is a Titan and an Exo) to replace Zavala's role?

Idk I'm just talking nonsense and thought of this randomly||

[empty fern]

Nah, saints got dreams with his boyfriend after this is over

[dim minnow]

Saint-14 was already vanguard previously

also races were never really a big thing for vanguards

the original composition were 2 humans (Tallulah and Osiris) and 1 exo (Saint-14)

Tallulah was human I think

or maybe never stated

[trim grotto]

Well, the Vanguard isn't supposed to represent each "race", just the classes.
Also don't worry about spoilers if someone is worried about that they shouldn't be here

[burnt birch]

Is switching subclasses just a gameplay thing or can guardians use all void solar and arc at the same time

[trim grotto]

All Guardians can learn to wield each element. They don't do so simultaneously like we do with Prismatic, though.

[burnt birch]

Which element does Ikora use

[trim grotto]

Well, she knows them all. But she's primarily a Voidwalker.

[burnt birch]

She’s top dawg warlock right?

I know she’s the vanguard but what about skill

[trim grotto]

She's one of the strongest Guardians of all time.

[burnt birch]

I like her she’s a badass

[trim grotto]

Used to be a Crucible champion, too.

[burnt birch]

That’d be scary coming across her in crucible

Do other guardians know strand and stasis ?

[trim grotto]

Yes, they're catching on.

Elsie has been teaching Guardians to use Stasis over on Europa

[burnt birch]

Did Osiris ever learn strand?

[trim grotto]

He did. You saw this in the campaign for Lightfall, actually.

[burnt birch]

Maybe I should stop skipping cutscenes

[empty fern]

Real

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-osiris-the-phoenix-strand-darkness-gif-27585989

[heavy ivy]

Who'd win in a 1v1 between the Traveler (Lightfall era) vs Witness (Lightfall era). Takes place in a space where they can't hurt anybody but each other and themselves.

[little monolith]

[ember storm]

Boy that’s a real thinker can’t seem to wrap my mind around it

[empty fern]

Man

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-destiny-the-witness-witness-zoom-meeting-gif-27567126

[dull raft]

was this the same cutscene where he forgot sagira was dead

[empty fern]

No that’s seraph

Oh wait

Wrong reply

Yea it was

[ember storm]

Yes

But I wouldn’t really phrase it as “forgot”

It’s not really like “oh silly me it slipped my mind that the companion I’ve had for my entire existence is dead”

[trim grotto]

Literally centuries

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-lightfall-strand-osiris-darkness-gif-27631855

[trim grotto]

If this is an honest question, and it existed in a void, and assuming the Traveler even would fight back... the Witness. I don't think you'd find anyone who would debate the alternative seriously, if they knew the Traveler well.

[unreal pecan]

i think id agree but for the sake of the discussion, how does the witness damage the traveler?

the travelers shell/durability is the highest weve seen, infact the traveler has damge the witness while the witness hasnt damage the travler

[trim grotto]

Well, while we don't know exactly how it was afflicted, I would first have to point out the Shard of the Traveler in the EDZ. Corrupted with Darkness and damaging the Traveler, it was cast aside for fear of further damage.

This happened during the Collapse.

On a similar note, Uldren once shot a hole in a piece of the Shard with the Ace of Spades.

[unreal pecan]

the traveler hurt iteself, yes if you copy yourself and you two fight

obviously youd damage yourself

[trim grotto]

The Traveler cast it aside, but it was the Black Fleet that damaged it in the first place to cause that need.

Also, the Red Legion Cage was able to siphon its Light. If the Cabal, as unexperienced with paracausality as they are, can cause such a severe reaction, the looming threat of the most powerful wielder of the Dark is surely worse.

On that note, the Traveler was helpless against the Witness in the battle above Earth. The beam affected the Pyramid, but not the Witness itself.

[unreal pecan]

yea the black fleet is not the witness

@heavy ivy can you quickly confirm if the witness would have the black fleet or the gardener would have the guardians

[heavy ivy]

What?

In my question?

I said it's a 1v1

[unreal pecan]

thank you for confirming

[heavy ivy]

👍🏾

[trim grotto]

My stance is unchanged regardless. The Traveler is not impenetrable, nor infallible, and it certainly isn't a fighter.

[unreal pecan]

doesnt need to be a fighter, the witness just is unable to damage it

[trim grotto]

I completely disagree.

[unreal pecan]

and it has shown it is able to produce the power to kill the witness

[unreal pecan]

how would the witness damage the travleres shell

[trim grotto]

The Black Fleet draws from Darkness as the Witness does. Whatever they did, the Witness likely can too.

[trim grotto]

That's incredibly context dependant. Ergo Sum was only able to damage it from within. Face to face, the Traveler was helpless.

The beam did nothing to it.

[unreal pecan]

the traveler empowered the guardians to kill the witness

once the traveler was given a reason to fight it did so

[trim grotto]

Yes, through a mixture of Darkness that allowed us to enter its mind, and Light to sever the connections from within.

Thoroughly irrelevant to a face to face standalone fight

It tried to fight back in the Lightfall cutscene and failed

[unreal pecan]

it the gardeners power that killed the witness

HENCE the gardener can kill the witness

[trim grotto]

...except the context isn't applicable here.

And we needed Darkness to accomplish the task.

And we did it, using its power.

[unreal pecan]

we as the gardians needed it for the context of beign there in the pale heart

we arent asking the question on if the lightfall traveler can empower the gardians to kill the witness

[trim grotto]

The Pale Heart and all that occurred within it are not relevant to the question here.

[unreal pecan]

we are asking if the traveler can kill the witness

[trim grotto]

Right. In a one to one, in a void, face to face.

Which your reference is none of

[unreal pecan]

yes, so the traveler shoots a beam of light and kills the witnes

[trim grotto]

It literally did that

In Lightfall

And failed

[unreal pecan]

that beam clearly had a seperate function plus

the traveler wasnt trying to kill the witness

its only after the guardian code if complete the travler acts

thsi HAPPENS time and time again

rasputin,the ghost,savathun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwjbByW2yBM

[jagged badge]

[empty fern]

Threadlings

[unreal pecan]

the only argument i know of to why the witness wins is,
1.the witness is described to be the first knife.
2.the witness mentally weakened when we kill him"
3.the traveler wouldnt kill the witness since it either can or no one has fufilled the guardian code

[jagged badge]

?

[trim grotto]

Sphinx it seems to me you're not fully considering that we needed to sever the parts of the Witness using Darkness to even enter that mindspace

It was a complex process

[jagged badge]

Also I have no clue what you’re saying about “fulfilling the Guardian code”

That’s

Not how that works at all

[heavy ivy]

What

???

All of Sol is about to get shit on and The Traveler is NOT trying to defeat The Witness by SHOOTING at it?

[unreal pecan]

yea, the traveler doesnt care about sol. it seems to only act to assist those who fallow the gardian code at that moment in time

[heavy ivy]

Yap Village right here

[trim grotto]

It explicitly cares about humanity

[unreal pecan]

what are you talking about?

[trim grotto]

Did you play the Final Shape campaign?

[unreal pecan]

yea thats why it was gonna leave during season of the seraph

[jagged badge]

It wasn’t

It moved into orbit and then stopped there

[trim grotto]

It wasn't leaving. It was confronting.

[jagged badge]

To defend humanity

[heavy ivy]

There was a season where Rasputin was going to replace the Traveler and it stayed because Ana Bae made a choice

[jagged badge]

And then we saw exactly how well that went in Lightfall

[trim grotto]

Also, I said explicitly. I can give you a quote saying it cares for people.

[jagged badge]

The Traveler tried but it did not have the capacity to beat the Witness

Only through us using Darkness and Light, could we even do so

[trim grotto]

To get to the representations of the dissenters, Darkness was required. Only through this were we, with Ergo Sum, able to damage the Witness internally.

External damage was only possible after significant internal damage that caused it to lose cohesion

That used the direct power of the Traveler, through us

Elsewise we could have simply used that beam attack in Excision from the get go without the campaign final fight and without the Raid

[jade meteor]

Lol the ping…

[dim minnow]

The Traveler is purely benevolent.

[dim minnow]

Is the Light sword the same model as Ergo Sum?

Looked different to me

[dim minnow]

During the Golden Age, Clovis wanted to use Rasputin to replace the Traveler, but Ana teaching Rasputin about art, music, philosophy, etc. gave him a love for humanity so he locked Clovis out.

The Traveler stayed during the Collapse because it was tired of running

[heavy ivy]

@dim minnow It seems to me that the Traveler likes humanity in that cutscene

[trim grotto]

I think it is
I can check when I'm home

[ember storm]

The answer is no

It’s just generic sword of light

[trim grotto]

Huh
Whoopsie daisies

Wait is that not a Ghost hilt

I can't see this on my mobile phonocular

Whatever I'll check later I'll be back in an hour or two byeeee

[ember storm]

It IS a ghost

But it’s not ergo sum

For some reason

[trim grotto]

Hm

[ember storm]

Completely different actual sword

[trim grotto]

M'alrighty then

[ember storm]

Traveler just stuck a little ghost on the bottom for brand recognition

[trim grotto]

Inb4 it's a Felwinter's HELM situation and the Ghost is alive and just can't leave

Thanks autocorrect

For capitalising HELM

[ember storm]

It’s that one ghost that spider had in the anti transmat cage which we just ignored

[small quartz]

I so wish this were a weapon or the Prismatic Super

[dim minnow]

Would be nice to use that sword more

Only appears in Iconoclasm and Excision

[outer dragon]

Strand Titan should have had a huge buster sword for it's super since that would lean into the severing part

And also be cooler than "pointy green Fist of Havoc"

[ember storm]

Not particularly related to lore whatsoever

But there is zero similarity between fist of havoc and berserker in how they work, honestly

I thought the trend of comparing the two died as soon as Lightfall came out

Even in the way they look, I just… don’t really get it?

One of them is literally just punching things particularly hard and the other is tearing apart the fabric of a psychic plane and wielding it as two claws

That’s basically just like saying gathering storm and nightstalker are the same because it’s a ranged weapon that the hunter holds with two hands before it sticks into an enemy

[small quartz]

so if Kenjaku from JJK used his Technique on a Guardian and he died

would the Guardians old brain return or would Kenjakus brain still be in there

[fervent sandal]

Is that big vex structure off in the distance on Europa a similar structure as the pyramidion on io?

[trim grotto]

Possibly! The Pyramidian had many exits, with a shared interior location.

It could, in fact, be a Pyramidian.

[dim minnow]

though the purpose seems a little different

Pyramidions seem to be largely meant for planet-converting purposes

the structure on Europa could have been more for an invasion force given the history of the Vex on Europa

[slim girder]

I saw pyramidions as the equivalent to fast travel but for the vex as well as being "factories" for the vex.
Not like citadels that seem like vex strongholds where the highest minds do whatever they're designed to do.

[twilit vapor]

all this pyramidion talk makes me miss asher mir :(

im glad he didnt die tho