📚lore-discussion

[trim grotto]

Correct

It's just crossover stuff

[sick yew]

The Fractaline thing tho

Is that how it went down

Or did I mess something up there

[small quartz]

how the hell do you sell a dance...

[sick yew]

Again that was shortly before my time in the game

[trim grotto]

Something like that

[sick yew]

Close enough™️

[trim grotto]

Okay so you know how three of us now have said not to think about it

Don't think about it

[small quartz]

i mean ill try

[sick yew]

Some things are just different ingame than in lore

Like raid encounters usually

Might come as a shocker but we didnt actually dunk random symbols into pillars so that we would be able to get kicked in the face by Rhulk

[small quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/gotg-what-chris-pratt-starlord-guardians-of-the-galaxy-gif-11287925

[sick yew]

[small quartz]

... my life is a lie

[sick yew]

[tough kettle]

I dont think they are either.

[sick yew]

Glad we're on the same page

[frigid sparrow]

||she looks so god damn silly 💀the red clashes with the rest of the design way too much ||

[vast kiln]

Me when I found out I was right about the conductor:

[cloud gust]

||She looks like she’s wearing a Halloween Costume💀||

[cloud gust]

||I’m sure everyone who knew about Maya Sundaresh was right about it||

[frigid sparrow]

||they should've given her head slight vexification||

[frigid sparrow]

like sure it was obvious but I am a lil sad my crack theory was wrong

[cloud gust]

||What theory mr. Matpat?||

[frigid sparrow]

||that it was otzot 💀 ||

[cloud gust]

||Ain’t that that Psion that doesn’t want to abolish Psion Slavery?||

[frigid sparrow]

||yeah, and the one who coordinated the insight terminus strike force||

||with the minor mention during the FS post campaign missions and the vague psion shape I thought it'd be them||

||plus it'd be actual justification for the shadow legion's appearance||

[cloud gust]

||It’s an interesting theory. I was surprised when it was Maya in the shape of Lakshmi (yes I understand how they’re related)||

[uneven canyon]

Who is the “foe” in Styx II?

[dim minnow]

Styx II is?

[uneven canyon]

From the Rubicon

[dim minnow]

is that one of the newer lore books?

[uneven canyon]

Yes, Salvation’s Edge

[dim minnow]

hmmm

[small quartz]

what else can ghosts do

[trim grotto]

That depends on what you know they can do already

[small quartz]

huh

[trim grotto]

You said "else"

[ember storm]

They can play music

[small quartz]

All I know is they revive you

[empty fern]

They can move

[small quartz]

and serve as Communications?

[trim grotto]

Not exactly, but they do have communications tech themselves.

They can carry things, scan things, record, send and analyse data, transmat, play music, stuff like that

[small quartz]

are they ACTUAL technology? or just light mimicing it

[small quartz]

Play Music??

[trim grotto]

Waltz wasn't kidding when they said that

[trim grotto]

Yes
They're a construct, metal and glass and tech and Light

[small quartz]

what does modern age music sound like

[trim grotto]

There's a live action dance trailer for vanilla D2 launch somewhere on YouTube

[small quartz]

so they can record but, no like Camera?

ngl if a photo mode is ever added youd control the ghost :3

[tough kettle]

they could most definitely take pictures in canon, just not in game

[small quartz]

did uh

Whats his name

Andal Brask have hair

Fuck he did

[dim minnow]

yes

[small quartz]

Okay uh Only hunter vanguards have had hair

[trim grotto]

Ikora has hair

She just shaves

[small quartz]

...

by that logic she doesnt

[trim grotto]

Look at her head

She isn't bald

Just shaved

[small quartz]

whats she look like with hair

[trim grotto]

No clue, she doesn't grow it out.

[small quartz]

this looks weird

[trim grotto]

But she could if she wanted to

[small quartz]

who tf edited this 😭

Hair is actually horid for Drag when double jumping or doing whatever those guys do with Shatterdive/Half Truths

[eager trout]

When you think about it, Calus succeeded his mission by failing it

[small quartz]

go on

[eager trout]

He was supposed to find the Veil and use the radial thing to connect it to the Traveler. And even though the radial thing was destroyed, him trying to get the Veil made the Guardian and the others go to secure the Veil, which in turn allowed the Witness to make the connection using the Guardian's Ghost

[small quartz]

i wish i understood what the veil was 🙂

[eager trout]

The Traveler, but Dark

[dim minnow]

Cosmic Collective Conciousness

also the Darkness equivalent to the Traveler

[small quartz]

Collective Conciousness???

[dim minnow]

your voices won't be heard at all

[small quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/omori-collective-consciousness-gif-26750221

[small quartz]

so what does like

Dark Ghosts do

[dim minnow]

there aren't any

[small quartz]

are there dark ghosts?

Oh

[dim minnow]

the Veil is implied to have been unitied with the Traveler at one point

[eager trout]

There's things that look like dark Ghosts in the Pale Heart

[small quartz]

thats just a black shelled ghost :/

[eager trout]

With a red eye

[small quartz]

yeah they exist

shaders

[slim girder]

Not all ghosts look the same except for at birth. They're basically like crabs. As long as the core is there they can inhabit any shell. Be it for style or function.

[cloud gust]

I wonder how they take it off

[slim girder]

I like to think they have some magnetic parts that attach everything. Let's them also move around and express emotions.

They turn that off and the shell just drops off. Or it gets shot off by an enemy like what has happened to many ghosts.

[small quartz]

CRAB

🙏

I need the sun shot shell

It’s so stupid

[dim minnow]

Almost Mighty Shell looks even goofier

[small quartz]

Nah he got that shit on bruh

[warped karma]

give up free will forever 🗣️

[dim minnow]

your voices won't be heard at all

[small quartz]

Display obedience

[dim minnow]

while never stepping out of line

[small quartz]

and blindly swear allegiance

[warped karma]

let your country control your mind

[small quartz]

let your country control your soul

[dim minnow]

live in ignorance

[warped karma]

and purchase your happiness

[dim minnow]

when blood and sweat is the real cost

[small quartz]

THINKING CEASES, THE TRUTH IS LOST

[dim minnow]

Don't you worry

[small quartz]

you'll be told exactly what to do

[cinder geode]

Is sotaria still on mars?

[trim grotto]

Nope! She's in the Hierarchy of Needs. What's left of her, anyway.

[cinder geode]

Byf said that she made the equivalent a submind is that true? Or am I tripping?

[trim grotto]

She made something analogous to it, yes, despite the fact that she wasn't prepared for it. That "submind" became the Occlusion, on Neomuna's network.

[small quartz]

why does the hive live on the moon

[restive saddle]

Because they took it

[slim girder]

It's where they built I believe their first stronghold in Sol, the hellmouth and at the time the main threat was Crota.

Guardians originally went to retake the moon only for thousands to be slaughtered by Crota and his swarm. This was what's known as the great disaster.

[sick yew]

Arguably the biggest defeat of Human history (Second only to the collapse maybe)

[slim girder]

Correct me if I'm wrong but there wasn't even any attempted retaliation during the collapse right? Like everyone was just trying to get away from something that at the time they didn't understand.

[sick yew]

I dont recall any documented cases of Earth trying to fight back
However I am fairly certain at leat some nations tried to retaliate

But they were ofc powerless

Rasputins Warsats which afaik are among the strongest tools humanity had available didnt do anything as you remember

[slim girder]

Right. In fact that literally backfired on Rasputin almost instantly.

[sick yew]

Correct

[slim girder]

I want to assume that originally they did try fighting back but once it was discovered to be futile everyone just put everything into trying to escape the black fleet. Like titan was being ripped by gravity, earth had poison clouds and the whole system was surrounded by the fleet.

[sick yew]

the hopelessness of the situation was pretty apparent to everyone I assume yeah

Thats why theres this gigantic line of cars infront of the Cosmodrome walls

Everyone was just trying to get the hell out

[slim girder]

Rasputin was also shooting ships down like in the centrifuge lore. There was also mass panic going on amongst everyone trying to escape.

[sick yew]

Wait really

[slim girder]

Yeah. Rasputin to keep research buried shot down a colony ship to kill one person because of knowledge they possessed.

[sick yew]

Where did you read that

Looking at Centrifuse loretab now and it doesnt mention anything like that

[fast tapir]

yeah i dont see that

[slim girder]

Sry I mixed up some lore. In the kalkis burning sword lore in the last days of kraken mare lore book you can read about the event. Centrifuge is related to the scientist that was the target of the attack.

[sick yew]

Ah

[small quartz]

Bro is not Gru

[ember storm]

The witness was

Took whole moons and planets

Greedy thing

[small quartz]

is the Witness just Gru

[trim grotto]

It's been a while since I've seen that movie but I'm 70% sure Gru wasn't trying to end existence across the entire universe

[small quartz]

You Sure?

[trim grotto]

70%, yes, I just said that

[small quartz]

he was stealing the moon

I believe he understood how drastically thatd fuck over earth

[ember storm]

He was just going to use it as leverage

He didn’t genuinely want to own the moon

[fiery copper]

No he was 100% gonna keep that shit

[fiery copper]

It is an animated movie it is not that deep

[cloud gust]

Two of the weapons from Ghosts of the Deep shows Rasputin shooting down ships that try to leave Titan

Why? I have no clue

[ember storm]

He literally says he’s going to use it as leverage so the world gives him what he wants in return

He just wanted the notoriety of being the biggest villain

He didn’t actually want to keep a giant rock

[restive saddle]

they gru

or i guess the minions

[slim girder]

Because a scientist named Dr Pell had knowledge of an "anomaly" which Rasputin deemed unsafe. Rasputin was in twilight exigent mode which means that he's going to maximise survival even if it means killing others. This knowledge Dr Pell had was considered dangerous enough for Rasputin to kill thousands to keep it contained. It's possible that Dr Pell shared that information or maybe these lore tabs are all talking about the single ship that was shot down with Dr Pell inside.

[near pulsar]

TONIGHT! WE WILL STEAL THE MOON!!!!!!!

[wheat flower]

Dr.Pell knew the Irn Bru recipe

[fresh zephyr]

I might be misunderstanding Sword Logic but wouldn't Oryx caring about his son's death disprove Sword Logic? According to Sword Logic, creatures must fight and defeat others in order to prove they have the right to exist, but our Guardian killed Crota meaning that he doesn't have the right to exist and yet Oryx still wants the Guardian dead because of that.

[slim girder]

Oryx may be evil but he still cares about his family.

Mostly

He did take malok who was the son of savathun

[blazing wasp]

Yep oryx didn't follow the sword logic when he cared for crotas death

[ember storm]

Well yes and no

In the simplest understanding, something that was dead deserved to die

But Crota was also the main pillar for Oryx’s line of tribute

By virtue he would be pitted against us anyway, so it’s not like he wasn’t allowed to fight us

[blazing wasp]

Though he did care about crota dying beyond just tribute, taken riven even gives some insight on this

When under oryx' control, apparently she was enraged at crotas death

[fresh zephyr]

It might just be me, but the Conductor gives me major Witness vibes with all the hand movements

What if the Echo reshapes things itself? Or changes people

🫣

Because it's a fragment of the Witness right

[jagged badge]

The Echoes are fragments of the Witness but also fragments of the Witness’ victims from untold eons of genocide

[fresh zephyr]

So all the races it made extinct are present?

[jagged badge]

I’m not sure exactly how it works

But

There may be a reason we keep getting pages about the Qugu each act

(I literally just made this connection)

[fresh zephyr]

Because apparently the Witness is the Winnowers version of the Guardian right? At least that's what people have been saying?

But I thought that the Winnower didn't support the Witness

[jagged badge]

I have no clue tbh

[fresh zephyr]

I haven't even finished Salvations Edge yet lol

I hope the Dread remain a constant, and we get a final Disciple reveal

[small quartz]

Do we lose anything by blowing up the moon?

[ember storm]

The moon for one

Any semblance of normal orbit and gravity

Tides are permanently fucked

[small quartz]

Can’t we not theoretically create a new one

[ember storm]

Unless you have a way of Indiana Jonesing a replacement moon immediately after getting rid of the old one

Not even mentioning what happens to the old one

[wheat flower]

Think ikora said at the start of the echoes thing that when we stopped the witness remenants of the civilizations it conquered broke off of it

Or took form

I thought it was like given form through the traveler as the witness finally dying "freed" these aspects it kinda absorbed into itself

Thus giving them form

[small quartz]

Think Dragon Ball

[trim grotto]

[trim grotto]

Dana until we found Neomuna, Humanity was reduced to a single City, which still shows the scars of the Red War in the form of damaged infrastructure, massive craters, and abandoned districts.

[wheat flower]

Why don't we all move to enomuna

Also why don't we actually start expanding?

Haven't we sort of gotten rid of most threats on earth itself?

[empty fern]

We’ll get to that, be patient

[wheat flower]

Also can't we make a new golden age AI?

Based of of failsafe?

She's literally a golden age AI

[empty fern]

We’ll get to that, BE PATIENT

[dull raft]

https://tenor.com/view/well-get-thereincredibles-driving-get-there-road-rage-superhero-gif-12009259

[wheat flower]

Also also

Since we have the fallen and cabal on ohr side now can't we just start a new golden age with their technology?

Aren't thr fallen suppose to be the best bio engineers in the glaxaxy?

[empty fern]

[wheat flower]

Lemme guess

[dull raft]

neither of them have any permanent population centers afaik

[wheat flower]

We'll get to that

[dim minnow]

You know the Eliksni are constantly barely surviving right?

[dull raft]

House Light has the Eliksni quarter and that's... about it.

[wheat flower]

Yeah but what about the ones on pur side

[dim minnow]

also the Cabal Empire is still reeling from the loss of their homeworld

[dim minnow]

probably the only ones who are in a stable position

and even then it's because we let them in

[wheat flower]

Yeah but I'd imagine that it'd be in everyones best intrest to help them develop surely

Give them europe and see what they do

[dim minnow]

we can't just "give" them Europe

we can't even give them anywhere else on Earth for that matter

we are literally pushed back to a single city

and we were in no position to actively retake long lost land until just now since the Witness is dead

[dull raft]

killing the Witness didn't just make all of the remaining baddies disappear either

[fresh zephyr]

When our Guardian killed the Witness and our Ghost briefly died, why didn't the Traveler ressurect our Ghost? Why did Cayde-6 have to sacrifice himself for our Ghost?

[wheat flower]

#TravelerisPetty

[ember storm]

Traveler was barely even conscious throughout the entirety of FS

Killing the witness doesn’t make all the corruption go away

It just physically couldn’t

[dim minnow]

Traveler needs its missing half

the Veil

[muted perch]

Who’s this

[dim minnow]

random Guardian meant to represent us

[muted perch]

Oh

[cloud gust]

That’s mfs
(I’m mfs)

[trim grotto]

We haven't been able to properly populate our own Last City.

We've only just ended a universal threat
We haven't even reformed our government because we weren't sure if we'd even survive

[cloud gust]

When you think about it we technically live in an Autocracy

[empty fern]

Last city continues to leave party supplies and chairs everywhere

[eager trout]

Who says it didn't, through Cayde?

[low gyro]

has the traveler even resurrected any ghost ever?

[eager trout]

Not bio, just normal engineers. Unless you mean for things like cyborgs.

[tough kettle]

probably not

[eager trout]

People: "The Traveler is so bad for not resurrecting our Ghost or saying anything after all we've done for it!"

The Traveler, which had just gone through a lobotomy, full-body amputation, brainwashing, torture, hypnosis, and every shady medical procedure ever:

[tough kettle]

it was cayde's decision to give up his light to bring back ghost, and even then, the traveler was shown to be weak all throughout tfs
also, even as cayde said, everything in the light is connected

[tough kettle]

in game its said it will take "several years" for the traveler to heal

[small quartz]

Do cars still exist?

[dim minnow]

well there are a bunch of rusted and defunct cars outside of the Cosmodrome

[small quartz]

Do Functioning Cars exist in a 9-5 day

[dim minnow]

but it seems that the Laast City doesn't use cars

as far as I know

[small quartz]

so is it just Sparrows?

[dim minnow]

it seems to rely more on public transport via train or ship

[small quartz]

OH FUCK YEAH TRAINS????

[dim minnow]

there are other vehicles that are similar but not the same as sparrows

[small quartz]

can i see the train

[dim minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/principal-skinner-no-seymour-skinner-the-simpsons-hesitant-gif-15806752

[small quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/no-nope-nite-owl-screaming-watchmen-gif-7626041

I curse you Dovadah

[little gorge]

that seems to be one of maya's motivations actually according to a recent lore book

[small quartz]

if all 3 Vanguards fought
Cayde, Zavala, Ikora
Who would win

[cinder geode]

Ikora

[warped karma]

yep

[small quartz]

shit

thought so

[warped karma]

after latest events its even more Ikora but she is super skilled anyway a warlock prodigy

[small quartz]

so Cayde V Zavala

[cinder geode]

Cayde

[small quartz]

why that

[cinder geode]

Cause I'm a hunter main

[small quartz]

CAN I GET AN AMEN

[trim grotto]

Well one is dead and the other is Lightless

Ikora would beat Crow who would beat Zavala and then Zavala would just be regular old dead

[small quartz]

🤦‍♂️ i mean

in their normal states

[trim grotto]

Death is perfectly normal

[small quartz]

I mean

Pre Forsaken

[ember storm]

Well Zavala could just camp out with pre-nerf bubble

[fresh zephyr]

Do you think we'll see Witness flashbacks in Episodes? Or at least dialouge like the Pale Heart memories

I'm currently in my Witness withdrawal phase

[cloud gust]

“Our Guardian is the most powerful one ever to exist”
Saint-14 in Excision:

[fast tapir]

no but we will see more of the Veil

[blazing wasp]

Well the first statement just isn't true, we're not that powerful

Just smart and crafty

Adaptable, really damn good at fighting dirty

But not that strong, above average sure but nothing exceptional

[cinder geode]

Then why do the hidden and ilora have a whole folder on us then

[cloud gust]

You’re probably right
We’re sure as hell the most accomplished though

[cloud gust]

I mean if there was someone that has killed multiple gods you’d want to keep tabs on them, no?

[ember storm]

They have at least 2000 “vip” folders ahead of us

[small quartz]

"Most powerful to exist"
Dies to the water

[cloud gust]

I thought you were referring to Saint-14 for a second

[small quartz]

Nah

https://tenor.com/view/hive-hive-propoganda-destiny2-zavala-commander-zavala-gif-25283725

Does this GIF like

have any actual lore to it

Is Hive Propaganda real

[cloud gust]

It’s a cutscene from the witch queen from when we found out that the Traveler gave Savathun the light

[small quartz]

Ohhhhh

I forgot

[analog torrent]

Would Exos make better pilots than baseline humans? No need to worry about G forces, they can pull some bullshit maneuvers

[empty fern]

You’d think we’re well past the limitations of that due to the golden age

But probably yea

[blazing wasp]

Not sure how you'd even work around that

unless you found a way to make humans no longer need blood

[compact birch]

I would love to be able to get a IRL statue (like the Halo Reach Legendary Edition one) of Eramis this.

[trim grotto]

Beyond Light was four full years ago my friend

We're a bit past spoilers

[compact birch]

Yeah, but I just wanted to be safe.

[trim grotto]

We fully discuss story that was released this very week

[jagged badge]

That aside though

That would be pretty cool tbh

[compact birch]

I just like the idea of having something like that in my house.

[frosty belfry]

did drifter get callum killed?

bc it sounds like he did

[jagged badge]

‘Twas on purpose

As in, Callum was in on the whole plot with Shin

Iirc

@trim grotto help me out here, I never remember the details of this

[dim minnow]

I go tthis

[dim minnow]

ok, so Shin Malphur co-founded the Shadows of Yor secretly as part of his elaborate plot to root out corrupt Guardians obsessed with Darkness

of course, he also had another motive at some point

you see, he decided to let Drifter run his Gambit as an experiment (also for his Shadow hunting thing, but more on that later)

Shin was intrigued at the idea of Guardians using Darkness in Gambit (I believe the invasion mechanic is part of this)

which led to him wanting the next generation of Guardians to be strong enough to wield both Light and Dark without falling to corruption

which also tied into him wanting to get rid of the corrupted Guardians

so, first he had Drifter give out Dredgen titles to piss off and lure out corrupt Guardians (false shadows as one would say) so he can get rid of them

or so the Praxic Order could

then, he colluded with Callum Sol

Callum would play the part of edgy bad guy and break away from the rest of the Shadows of Yor

[frosty belfry]

ok so

[dim minnow]

then, Shin Malphur would confront him where he would stab an already dead ghost with a Thorn bullet while he and Shin would claim it was his own Ghost

meanwhile Callum's actual Ghost would go in hiding or something like that

then Shin merks Callum and makes sure everyone knows it happened

of course Callum can't be rezzed by his Ghost since he has to be dead-dead

as a result, a message is sent out to discourage any other Guardians from being corrupted by Darkness

[frosty belfry]

okay so drifter got callum killed by shin so they can tell guardians not to get corrupted by the darkness

[dim minnow]

I wouldn't say Drifter was exactly involved in it

at least not knowingly

[frosty belfry]

ok

dang

that’s convoluted

but i get it

[dim minnow]

yeah, it was a year-long storyline told through various exotic hand cannon quests over the course of Year 2

Malfeasance
The Last Word
Thorn
and Lumina

[frosty belfry]

thank you

[dim minnow]

and it is unironically a really good storyline

which is a shame because most of it was going on in the background

but the stuff Shin says to us go hard

"to serve as a catalyst for even a sliver of your continued growth is an honor"

few phrases in the lore go harder than that one

[trim grotto]

I am in the process of earning cash dollar money

[jagged badge]

Imagine

[dim minnow]

don't worry, I got it handled

[small quartz]

Who’s Caliban

[dim minnow]

he was a previous Hunter Vanguard

[small quartz]

Pre uh

… forgot his name

[dim minnow]

I believe he was present when Tallulah (the first Hunter Vanguard) was killed by and Ahamkara because she lost in a game of poker

Kauko Swiftriver?

or Andal Brask?

[small quartz]

Brask

[dim minnow]

I don't recall the exact lineage of Hunter Vanguards all too well other than Tallulah being first, then the last three being Andal Brask, Cayde-6, and Crow in that order

[small quartz]

I don’t like crow

[dim minnow]

I do

[small quartz]

As vanguard

[trim grotto]

He was the second. Succeeded Tallulah Fairwind, the first.

Caliban-8

[small quartz]

Right so

Who’s the abandoned ship guy

[trim grotto]

Crow was helping organise the Hunters before he even became Vanguard.

...

Pardon?

[small quartz]

Yknow that exotic mission

[trim grotto]

Oh, Presage

[small quartz]

Ye

[trim grotto]

That's uh, whatshisface
Fuckin'... Shadow of Earth, uh...

K...

Give me a second

[small quartz]

Calabasis

[trim grotto]

Katabasis

That's it

[small quartz]

Ah

Who’s he

[trim grotto]

Katabasis was a Hunter who threw his lot in with Emperor Calus, as the Shadow of Earth. Was present for the Glykon Event, wherein Calus connected the Scorn shared mind to the Witness, which is why some support it instead of Fikrul.

[dull raft]

poker with a wish dragon would be fun without the whole death thing

[small quartz]

Fikrul?

[trim grotto]

In some ways, the original Scorn.

Fikrul was an Archon resurrected by an unintended Wish from Uldren Sov to Riven, the Taken Ahamkara.

The result corrupted Fikrul's Ether, which was later used to resurrect Fallen as Scorn.

[small quartz]

Archon?

[trim grotto]

Aye, they worked with Prime Servitors.

High up in the hierarchy.

[small quartz]

What’s archon

[trim grotto]

The former. They did fight because that just how Hive be, but Xivu saw her sister as a heretic now.

[trim grotto]

They worked with Prime Servitors.

They're Fallen.

[trim grotto]

Basically they tended to them and distributed the Ether for the House

Oh certainly
I think Clovis Bray's Logbook and the events on Europa show that well

Well, that's something you should take as a grain of salt. The Flower Game and Unveiling as a whole is a metaphor, a concept outlined as a story.

No, like
The entire story isn't literally about previous universes or a time before time

The Flower Game references Conways Game of Life

Apart from Unveiling and its never ending debates though, the Vex certainly have plenty to make you fearful. Have you read the Logbook, the Beyond Light CE lore?

Truly fascinating read.

The first half isn't on Ishtar, which makes it pretty awkward to find, but I've got a very good transcription if you're interested.

[slim girder]

The scariest thing from the vex imo is the Gorgons gaze.

But there is also the swarmers lore.

[uneven canyon]

Can ghosts ressurect eliksni? I’m reading a lore page saying they don’t want to, so why haven’t we seen one?

[dim minnow]

we have good reason to assume they can't

at one point a Ghost thought he was about to rez an Eliksni but ended up rezzing the Awoken guy beneath them

[cloud gust]

But then again
Savathun

[uneven canyon]

Yeah that’s what I was reading

So could they?

Savathûn did say hive weren’t the last to be chosen

[trim grotto]

It is suggested that the Traveler allowed Ghosts to resurrect Hive and Humanity. So as far as we understand, it would need to allow Eliksni to be resurrected, too.

[ember storm]

Hey mael

[trim grotto]

Elsewise, something else would have been resurrected by now.

[dim minnow]

granted it could also be a case of the Elinsi specifically not being rezzable since most people just aren't chosen to be rezzed

but as of now, no indication that Ghosts can rez anyone other than Hive and Humanity

[ember storm]

Did you notice in reprised Exodus, Saint almost entirely (or completely I can’t remember) refers to salvation as Eliksni and not fallen

[cloud gust]

Assuming they can rez Eliksni, it’d probably be one from House Light for obvious reasons

[ember storm]

My mind went numb after the fifth grandmaster run but I distinctly remembered his phrasing

[cloud gust]

Has he not done this until now?

[ember storm]

He’s referred to house light as Eliksni

[dim minnow]

I mean, Salvation deserve to be called Fallen

[ember storm]

This is the first time he’s even mentioned other houses since splicer

And salvation of all things

[dim minnow]

it seems that they're narratively done now at least

since the TFS epilogue states that the house has "turned on itself"

[ember storm]

anyway does someone want to explain to me how the wreckage of the exodus black is apparently still in flames

[dim minnow]

the Vex simulate the fires (or the conditions to keep them going) for an unspecified purpose

[trim grotto]

Arsonist An'dy keeps pouring Ether onto the sparks

[ember storm]

criminal

OH ALSO

actual question

[dim minnow]

wouldn;t be surprised if this was an actual lore explanation that Bungie uses

[ember storm]

You know that one unidentified symbol bungie keeps using on inexplicable human things

[dim minnow]

no

[trim grotto]

Yeppers

[ember storm]

All the dots in the shape of a weird octagon

They’re on the exodus ship

What does it meannn

[dim minnow]

can you pull it up?

[ember storm]

Hold on

It’s on that one sturm ornament

[trim grotto]

Yeah people inaccurately say it is FotC but it's actually Golden Age

You can find it on Titan

[cloud gust]

FotC?

[dim minnow]

ok I think I know what you're referring to

[trim grotto]

Forces of the City

[dim minnow]

but I still need to see it

[cloud gust]

Oh

[ember storm]

Observe

Full screenshot bc you deserve it

They’re on the back wings of this and the front later on

[cloud gust]

I don’t see how that’d be forces of the city

[trim grotto]

It doesn't have a specific meaning that I can provide
But this is also an example of Golden Age

[dim minnow]

ok yeah that just sppears on a lot of Golden Age related things

[ember storm]

That’s why I’m confused

[cloud gust]

It’s just there

[trim grotto]

Because it is on a bunch of City Age gear

[ember storm]

It’s on very distinct non golden age stuff

[dim minnow]

I mean, doesn't it also appear on doors?

[ember storm]

That would be completely unrelated

[ember storm]

Nah

That’s just a pattern

[dim minnow]

I'm pretty sure you can find it on doors on Titan

[ember storm]

The stuff you’d see on Titan yeah

[cloud gust]

There’s also a symbol on the Indebted Kindness that’s also seen at the Europa landing zone where Variks is

[ember storm]

It’s not the same symbol

[trim grotto]

Not quite

It's similar but different

[cloud gust]

I know

I wasn’t saying it was the same
I was giving an example

[trim grotto]

No, like

Indebted Kindness and the station Variks is in

Have different symbols

[cloud gust]

Hmm?

[ember storm]

https://preview.redd.it/1nbk0u8fbht91.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=4f39c2150bead6db1ba92d56d6307874e3632875

[dim minnow]

oh also

[ember storm]

These all have it

[ember storm]

What about it

Oh that person in my ss?

[trim grotto]

The original symbol references oxygen levels on Titan, and this uses Titan designs. The design of the Indebted Kindness is slightly different, which I theorise references the low oxygen, high altitude environment these were designed for.

[ember storm]

Yeah they left at the barrier section

Said they’d rejoin and then didn’t

Is there a lore reason that Hefnd apparently has like nine smaller skulls in addition to the main one

[dim minnow]

they got the BRAVE title

[ember storm]

and also four Ron cages

Wow Ron cages

Thanks apple

[trim grotto]

Shapeshifter got lonely and made more heads to talk to

[ember storm]

Ngl an ahamkara actually going full hydra would be dope

But I imagine that shapeshifting takes a bit of effort that would be wasted as you’re actively being murdered

Just enough to pull off a “haha you thought” and then die from hemorrhaging necks

[trim grotto]

hahaha yeah it's brutal

i think the best twist from that was discovering that Sundaresh was never there physically, but as a Vex pattern within his own body

Eventually, somewhere in the depths of time, it would have been so.
Lucky for us that paracausality exists.

Luckily, they don't quite seem to get it past "directed worship grants power". It's been possibly thousands of years since Quria's war with Crota, so that may be their upper limit without outside intervention... such as the Conductor.

[trim grotto]

Quria was cut off from the network when it was Taken, but prior to that, it figured out that directing worship at the Worms resulted in power. Thankfully, it didn't and couldn't pass on any knowledge gleaned from being paracausal due to becoming Taken.

[small quartz]

Riven is

that big guy right

[warped karma]

this is riven

[small quartz]

... oh

the hell happened to him

[warped karma]

Riven is an Ahamkara

maybe you are on the wrong character right now?

[small quartz]

no im thinking of riven

or this guy

whats his deal

[warped karma]

Riven was a Ahamkara (a wish Dragon) before we killed her in the Last wish raid

[small quartz]

Whyd we kill her

whatd she do

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/linden-loves-oryx-oryx-destiny2-gif-26612337

[trim grotto]

Riven was Taken, and at the core of the Dreaming City. Petra Venj asked us to kill Riven of a Thousand Voices, as her corruption and power were posing a deadly threat to the Dreaming City, which was being invaded by the Taken.

[small quartz]

this reminds me of the uh

Sea Emporor

[trim grotto]

Unfortunately, this also set off a plan that Savathûn had organised with Riven of a Thousand Voices, and as she died, Riven cursed the Dreaming City into its 3 week cycle time loop.

[small quartz]

Ohhhhh?

sounds

interesting

[trim grotto]

The above gif is because Oryx the Taken King was the one who Took Riven

And caused the invasion of the Dreaming City

[small quartz]

I am aware of oryx

Wait 3 Week Cycle?

[trim grotto]

Yes.

Every three weeks, the Dreaming City loops back around. You may have noticed it having varying levels of Taken corruption as you wander.

[small quartz]

i have not

since ive NEVER been to the dreaming city

[trim grotto]

I... what?

[small quartz]

Yeah

never had any need to

[trim grotto]

there's a tutorial quest to get introduced to it

like all Destinations

[small quartz]

really?

weird

well ive been once 2 years ago

[trim grotto]

You've played for two years and have never been to the Dreaming City?

Except for one time?

[small quartz]

yeah

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-why-head-tilt-eyebrow-raise-trials-of-osiris-gif-23248232

[small quartz]

is there a reason to

[trim grotto]

We've had multiple seasons there. It has unique loot which was reprised to have origin traits. There's the interest of exploring. The triumphs and unique rewards. Seeking out the many mysteries.

[small quartz]

like

what Mysteries

[blazing wasp]

No matter what you play the game for, there is a reason to go to the dreaming city

[blazing wasp]

I mean, lore, its the awoken, so they got good lore

Ahamkaras n shit

[empty fern]

Warlords ruin

[small quartz]

🤷 i dont get the Awoken really

[blazing wasp]

The distributory

[small quartz]

huh

[empty fern]

Awoken origin

[trim grotto]

"Get" them?

[empty fern]

(Mael pls)

[small quartz]

I dont get their deal

[trim grotto]

You're asking me to explain the Distributary and the origin of the Awoken?

i may

but i will make a cup of tea first

i can also do an audio recording because i have my mic prepared. it'll be faster to make than writing it all out but you wouldn't be able to read it of course

whichever works best for you folks
in the meantime i will make a delicious cuppa

[small quartz]

whatevers good

[warped karma]

10 minute vm incoming

[trim grotto]

i can write a tl;dl if you don't want to listen but i kinda felt like blabbing about lore for a bit

also i skipped over a bunch of distributary history

[small quartz]

bro is literally the narrator

So they're literally like

Universe People?

[trim grotto]

i also didn't elaborate on why Uldwyn was named Uldwyn

When the Awoken reformed as they are now, as opposed to the humans they once were, they too lost their memories. Mara Sov notwithstanding.

[trim grotto]

Their bodies are a mixture of Light and Dark, reformed in a new pocket universe by the will of Mara Sov, the first to enter the kugelblitz.

[small quartz]

Uldwyn?

[small quartz]

yeah got that

[trim grotto]

Yes, most of the original Awoken chose their own names, which were largely variations of their old names.

[small quartz]

"they were mildly paracausal"

[trim grotto]

Like Exo, it is akin to flashes of old memory and sense of self, without a solid grasp on what those memories truly were.

[small quartz]

yeah theyre just like

made of universe shaping energy

[trim grotto]

The clash of Light and Dark, yes. The Techeuns and Mara Sov are the only ones able to wield their power in any particularly useful manner, though.

Petra can make her knife float, though.

She had Techeun training. Failed, though.

[small quartz]

HELL YEAH

FLOATY KNIFE

I saw

[trim grotto]

there are a lot of mara variation usernames
so... so many

[small quartz]

"Mara Sov's Bathwater"

[candid jewel]

I’m like 2 hrs in lol

[fast tapir]

its quite disappointing really

they have a chance to make a GOOD name and they throw it out the window

anything not involving a destiny character

anything that does not have (adept)

or (timelost)

its perfect really

[analog torrent]

Meeting a x12 flawless *warlock in trials named Shayura would be fucking hilarious though

FUCK

fake fan 😭

[ember storm]

I thought she was a warlock

[analog torrent]

she is

[ember storm]

[analog torrent]

I mixed her up with her stasis hunter pal

Aisha

[ember storm]

Eramis moment

[little gorge]

ok some of the adept ones are actually funny

[fast tapir]

okay yeah that would be pretty funny

[slim girder]

You know what's funny is we have all these adepts and timelost names but no harrowed names.

[dim minnow]

back in Wish my first platnium score Coil run was ma with two Mara names

[cloud gust]

They all seem to lurk in Crucible

[frosty belfry]

what is the lore of 1k voices?

[dim minnow]

weapon made from Ahamkara bones and an eye

[frigid sparrow]

finally ran an enigma protocol, QURIA MENTIONED

[analog torrent]

Rapid lore help needed 🙏
In what tab is it stated that Ikora doesn't use Arc anymore because she was too op with it?

[dim minnow]

never heard of that

my best guess is Wich Queen CE book

[analog torrent]

How bout the one where she doesn't pvp anymore because she was too good

Trying to create a mini Ikora respect comment and I am realizing how lax d2 players are with citing sources because despite how popular these two (allegedly existing) loretabs are, I haven't read them

[dim minnow]

maybe Witch Queen CE book or Hidden Dossier which is the second half to that book

can't find anything about the Arc bit

[analog torrent]

I skimmed the part of wq ce that's just Chalco gushing over her

Nothing

Holy shit I am never trusting any lore tidbit I hear ever again I thought it was real

Don't know what else I expected from the d2 community considering "The helmet stayed on" misconception is still going around

[dim minnow]

I have never heard of anything about Ikora not using Arc

I think the Cricuble bit is real though

[analog torrent]

Yeah I found it in the ce

Dear Shaxx, Lord of the Crucible,
You and I both know that the Crucible I fought in was darker and more dangerous than the games you run today. Remember Thalor?
The truth is that I could not afford to be both Warlock Vanguard and a Crucible champion. To fight in the Crucible is to show the whole world the limits of your power.
I could not afford to lose and be revealed as limited. But more importantly, I could not afford to win. What would they say if they knew what I could really do? The danger I could be?
Properly yours,
Ikora Rey

[cloud gust]

I assume this “Thalor” had his Ghost blown to bits?

Oh no I see it now
Killed by Dredgen Yor

[dim minnow]

Thalor was killed by Dredgen Yor

[tough kettle]

ive seen so many people who think thats real

dont believe everything you hear

[analog torrent]

Every few weeks someone in d2chat finds out that Saint-14 is an Exo

[tough kettle]

its literally in the name... WHAT ELSE WOULD THE 14 STAND FOR

XD

[ember storm]

I’ve heard certain translations actually omit the fact and call him like “14th Saint” sometimes

[fresh zephyr]

since last wish is this weeks raid can i farm the loot chest multiple times or is it still once per week per slot

[dim minnow]

Wrong channel

[fresh zephyr]

indeed it is Mb

[oak oxide]

Are there any instances of guardians in the lore using the light to cast their supers in ways we players haven't , meaning supers that are not available to us right now

[heady monolith]

yes

[oak oxide]

What specifically?

[heady monolith]

shaw han casted his golden gun to empower other guardians

he shot them with golden gun to empower them

[oak oxide]

I would like to see a Titan turn into a spectral beast made of void energy

That would be cool

Any others?

[deep lark]

That would be cool

[oak oxide]

Sorta like the berserk armor

[deep lark]

I see

[hollow drum]

heard somewhere that fancy emotes were just projections of our light

we can kinda do whatever with the light

i think crow’s iron lord axe was like empowered during super state so that technically counts unless the axe is just built different and naturally damages the witness like that

[oak oxide]

I love your profile pic @hollow drum 🤣

[deep lark]

Crow iron lord axe was dope I wished we could see what it does

[hollow drum]

we did in rise of iron

shouldn’t be a different axe than the ones we wielded

[oak oxide]

Is there a destiny ttrpg where I can make all of this possible?

[deep lark]

@oak oxide look at your DMs if you can

[deep lark]

That’s right

[small quartz]

@trim grotto So i've been thinking about the awoken

why did Mara make them blue?

[heady wedge]

Have there been any other instances of friendly eliksni save other than the house of light and the house of wolves (I think it was, they betrayed Mara or something in D1)

[shadow warren]

Variks

Spiders crime syndicate wasn’t exactly friendly but they did fight alongside us

[cinder geode]

SCUR-V!

[sick yew]

There have been reports where Eliksni werent outright hostile to Guardians or such as long back as pre-d1

Cayde once temporarily teamed up with a Captain on uuuuh Venus I think while fighting the Vex

Unfortunately after a cultural misunderstanding afterwards he killed her

[heady wedge]

: (

Eliksni...

[sick yew]

iirc the Captain offered Cayde her gun which in Eliksni is like a sort of gesture to offer peace and its expected the other party does the same but Cayde thought he was supposed to take it

[cinder geode]

All the friendly eliksni in the eliksni quater are dregs and wretches where's my friendly captain

Or archon

Or even servitor

[heady wedge]

So true!

[heady monolith]

scur-v my goat

[cinder geode]

That's spider

He's 50/50

[heady monolith]

he helped the out during excision so i consider him friendly

[cinder geode]

Like why do we have wretches with those weird spears when we can have boss sized capitan's with shrapnel launchers

[small quartz]

So can we do that Funky Laser thing with our Ghost again?

[empty fern]

We don’t have an expendable cayde so probably not

[trim grotto]

That "funky laser thing" was the result of being directly empowered by the Traveler itself, and was so damaging to Ghost that he died.

[small quartz]

Riiiiiiight, but can we

[empty fern]

No

[small quartz]

If we REALLY waanted to

[empty fern]

No

[small quartz]

alr then

[trim grotto]

We'd have to be within the Pale Heart, and also have the Traveler choose to bestow us with that power, and also be perfectly fine with the potential of Ghost death. Again.

So. No, not really.

[sick yew]

Mithrax is a Captain

[cinder geode]

Mithrax is a kell

[sick yew]

By title yes but physically? No

His just as tall as your average captain since Mithrax is too humble to take so much Ether for himself

[small quartz]

Where the hell did the eliksni come from?

outside of the Solar System?

[cloud gust]

Yes

Their planet was Riis

They were also once blessed by the Traveler but it left them when the Darkness arrived (and if memory serves me right, Oryx and his army), resulting in the Whirlwind (their Collapse)

[small quartz]

...

riis

[trim grotto]

Riis.

[small quartz]

Cmon you know what that sounds like

[blazing wasp]

Rice

[small quartz]

Rizz

[blazing wasp]

Rise

[small quartz]

😦

[blazing wasp]

What

[trim grotto]

[small quartz]

I pronounce it as Rizz

[blazing wasp]

What.

[small quartz]

Re-ess

[blazing wasp]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1089937188730441738/1268903448150278285/image.png?ex=66af6f6d&is=66ae1ded&hm=fc124467de92ac49c9dc30c714f0ff6c3214ab5ad774ffcf9efe0b5f5e133396&

[small quartz]

maybe a rolling r

[small quartz]

so Riis is gone right

[trim grotto]

For centuries.

[small quartz]

and

how will this lead to us getting Vampire Hunting Gear

[analog torrent]

What loretab 🙏

[trim grotto]

Well, we'd be dealing with Fikrul and his Scorn. They may be attempting some manner of direct Ether siphoning.

[small quartz]

Mael can you gimme a weird lore tidbit

[trim grotto]

one second, trying to wrangle the new Ishtar search engine for Moon

[small quartz]

Huh

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-fallen

[analog torrent]

Thanks

Geez rip

[trim grotto]

For context, the ireliis bow was a form of respectful truce, disarming oneself. Cayde-6 attempting to claim the weapon placed down in peace, therefore...

Well, he didn't know.

[trim grotto]

Clovis Bray once murdered his granddaughter Elsie Bray with an orbital maser beam. Which detonated a handheld antimatter explosive device on her person, in turn.

[cloud gust]

What the hell
When/where was this

[trim grotto]

Europa. Prior to the Vexo War.

[small quartz]

maser beam?

[trim grotto]

Maser beam.

[small quartz]

... Oh that wasnt a typo

whats a maser beam

[cloud gust]

Sorry I mean to say lore tab

[trim grotto]

Clovis Bray's Logbook. Part 2, I believe.

[analog torrent]

It was the logbook yeah
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/clovis-brays-logbook-missing-pages

Maser discharge complete.
Target destroyed.
Secondary antimatter detonation detected.
Closing employee file BRAYELSIE (conditions incompatible with life).
ENTRY 15
Everything is fine. Elisabeth is not dead. The person I struck down out there was an error. An anomalous offshoot, deranged by outside influence into paranoia and confusion. Like a cancer cell. And like cancer, I had to target and remove her.

[trim grotto]

And it was Part 2, too. Nice.

[analog torrent]

What's the loretab that says Ikora uses Void because she was too op with Arc? Asked in here last night and the Cryptarchy but nobody could find it, don't think it exists despite how often it's referenced on Reddit (a website that never ever spreads misinformation )

[frosty belfry]

but isn’t elsie alive

[trim grotto]

She is.

[analog torrent]

Clovis kept a scan of her before she "betrayed" him so she got loaded into a new body

[trim grotto]

I have never heard of such a thing. Which is why I didn't respond in the Cryptarchy, either.

[analog torrent]

Ah damn

Time to consult the misinformation site once more in a last ditch attempt to find it

[small quartz]

Maser

[trim grotto]

You'd be better off googling that one buddy

[small quartz]

Oh

so its a Laser but filtered through Microwaves

[ember storm]

He should’ve just dropped a microwave instead

[analog torrent]

Mael I shouldn’t have asked reddit
A third of the comments: “I kinda remember a loretab like this. Don’t have the link though”
Another third: “Yeah this happened in insertLoretab.” Spoiler: it did not happen in insertLoretab.
The last third: “Ikora’s a Stormcaller?”

[dim minnow]

Neophytes all of them...

[uneven canyon]

What was the order of sunbreakers on Venus called?

[cinder geode]

I wonder who the original nightstalker was

[ember storm]

Sunbreakers

[uneven canyon]

I thought they had a name

[ember storm]

That is the name

Sunbreakers

[cinder geode]

@trim grotto who was the first nightstalker

[ember storm]

It’s not known

Subclasses are basically just schools of thought

You can’t really attribute who invented roundhouse kicking for example

Trends just got popular and developed from there

[cinder geode]

Based off orpheus rog ornaments I'm going to theorise it was someone named orpheus or calliope

[ember storm]

Pretty sure it’s just referencing the Greek myth

Cause yknow

That’s the description of the exotic

Why it’s put onto an exotic about bows and arrows, idk

[cinder geode]

I'm going to assume this was the first nightstalker

[ember storm]

You shouldn’t

The art in those are never anybody specific

They’re literally just generic guardian art

[cinder geode]

Let me have my fun ):

[fast tapir]

wow

fun ruiner!

[ember storm]

That’s part of my paragon arc

I’ve decided arbitrarily right now

[dim minnow]

Tevis might be, but then again, he might not be

You'd have to check the D1 Taken King missions to see

All I remember is that he was the one we (assuming you were a Hunter) got the Nightstalker subclass from

Can't exactly check it myself rn

[ember storm]

All that’s referenced is that he’s “our most experienced” according to Cayde

[empty fern]

Tevis my beloved

(Also not the first but literally nightstalker)

[empty fern]

Do we know, how long caydes been on Nessus?

[jagged badge]

Huh?

[empty fern]

Was on Nessus

[dim minnow]

like 2 weeks at most

[mental geyser]

I think he was there until we found him after the tower got blown up

[dim minnow]

rewatching the Adieu mission from red war to see how long it was between the first mission and us reaching the Farm

and it reminded me that Bugnie already did the whole:
[Destination]
[Timeframe]
thing before TFS

like recall how when you do those reprised missions to find the lost Ghosts for Micah and it specifies at the start that the reprised mission takes place three days before Excision?

[mental geyser]

Dont we have to do like six of those and they all say they happen 3 days before excision

Guardian must be tired

[dim minnow]

ok, so the mission "Adieu" which starts 2 days after Ghaul kicks us off of his ship, goes on over the course of 5 days

so it takes a week from the start of the Red War for us to reach the Farm

so Cayde at most was on Nessus for over a week

[ember storm]

Hey dova can I get your input on something

We’re lead to believe Ikora was on Io for the whole war just meditating right

[dim minnow]

from the looks of it, he either already knew Nessus was reachable before the Red War (since I believe he searched it up on the Van-net in a grimoire card towards the end of D1) or he found out during the Red LEgion attack on the Last City

[ember storm]

Did she never once notice that Asher was there? Even though he was actively working with the vanguard and presumably sending research notes?

[dim minnow]

a few things to note

1. Asher was still recovering from the Pyramidion incident when D1 was coming to an end. So Ikora might not have known Asher was back on Io so quickly. He could also have not returned there until after the Red War began when Ikora had no real way of knowing what happened to him.
2. If Ikora did know he was there, chances are she didn't know that he was alright (since again, it is hard to know given what the Red Legion had done)

[dim minnow]

not the entire time, she first went straight to the EDZ shard to try and reclaim the Light

[ember storm]

What was the difference between her attempt and ours

Was it a skill issue

[dim minnow]

the Shardd just did nothing

after that, then she went to Io where she was fighting Red Legion for a bit

then she went on meditating

[ember storm]

Maybe if Orphanage had an emotion line to say like ours during the cutscene it would’ve worked

[dim minnow]

?

[ember storm]

Gonna be honest I remember half of whatever joke I was making there but the rest is complete gibberish

Something about Ghost acting emotional over finding the shard and Ophiuchus not speaking until after CoO

[small quartz]

Can normal Enemies kill us?

like are there guns powerful enough

[ember storm]

Yes

Killing guardians has never been the issue

Killing ghosts is somewhat trickier but not especially

They have a natural resistance buff thanks to their paracausal nature, which basically just means they’re abnormally stronger than what any other little drone made of metal and glass would be

Essentially all that means is one or two stray bullets isn’t usually fatal

[dim minnow]

and apparently the stronger their connection to the Traveler is, the harder they are to destroy

[ember storm]

Anything from fallen knives to point blank shotgun shots is enough to put ghosts out of commission

[dim minnow]

of course, any attack from a Guardian by virtue of them being paracausal beings can destroy a Ghost

hence why we can crush Hive Ghosts with our bare hands

[ember storm]

As another example, Cayde’s ghost was killed by a devourer round, something that actively eats away at light and can one-shot any Lightbearer or their ghost

It’s not required to be paracausal, is the point

The bullet was actually meant for Cayde himself, which would’ve just made him perma dead right then and there

The Rifleman just made the split second decision to shoot Sundance instead so Cayde’s death could be more cathartic and slow

He did put all of the scorned barons in jail for years, so

[dim minnow]

could be that the Thorn acts as an ontological weapon

unless Weapons of Sorrow aren't neccessarily ontological weapons

though it does drain Light

which is why Guardians killed by it can't be rezzed

Ontological weapons are probably the absolutely most effective means of killing Guardians but the hardest to obtain

[small quartz]

Okay can THEIR guns kill ghosts

[dim minnow]

since there are few things that qualify as Ontological weapons

[ember storm]

Their guns can kill us and our ghosts fairly easily

Guardian tactics just tend to put us at an advantage through attrition and guerrilla warfare

It’s the reason Strikes even exist

[dim minnow]

which include Deathsong (requires time to finish and only Deathsingers can sing it)
Potentially Techeuns (Taken Techeuns had the ability but Eido implies that regular Techeuns are capable of it as well)
Gorgons from VoG (or any of the other bosses in VoG really) (only applicable in the VoG and Aegis counters it [except for Gorgons but they can only attack you if they see you and can't do anything if you carpet bomb them])

[ember storm]

For example, one stray vex bolt almost killed Sagira

[dim minnow]

Scorn guns apparently aren't very good so they aren't very effective on Ghosts

[ember storm]

They are made of literal garbage so they have an excuse

Then again drifter might just be lying because there’s no way in hell scorn crossbows are below average firepower

I refuse to believe it

[dim minnow]

hmmm

are Echoes ontological weapons?

for reference, an Ontological weapon is something that attacks your very existence and is one of the few things a Ghost rez can't save you from

examples are listed above

Deathsong being the most notable one

[slim elk]

We know Guardians aren't immune to the effects of this Echo

Saint had a collar slapped on him

[dim minnow]

maybe at least most wipe mechanics qualify as ontological weapons since all known examples of them are wipe mechanics

[dim minnow]

though Saint is the only one other than Vex we have seen hit with the Echo

and you can argue that the conditions Saint has been through are what allows him to be manipulated so heavily by the Echo

[slim elk]

We will see in the future I figure

[dim minnow]

also it was shown that he can resist it (not very well yet though)

[slim elk]

Though, admittedly I'm expecting more cutscene induced incompetence

[dim minnow]

I'm hoping the Conductor is defeated in 1 of 2 ways

1. Saint beats the shit out of her (maybe caves her skull in with a headbutt)
2. We use a finisher on her (I want to send her flying with a chair)

not sure how likely 2nd is though

[slim elk]

(Clean shot on the Conductor, and we just let her monologue and transmat away... because she has goblins?)

[dim minnow]

I mean, Saint and Osiris are both vulnerable

and we still do not know the full extent of the echo's power

I consider it a "fight we do not want to risk taking" sort of situation

[slim elk]

Yeah
So at worst transmat those two away and let us handle it lol

[dim minnow]

and what if she gets us instead

the possibility of the echo affecting us is already hinted at

[slim elk]

Yeah
Still run into same issue when we inevitably have an actual fight though

[dim minnow]

at least by then we would likely have a much better understanding of the echo's power

and an actual plan on beating her

like, we didn't even have a plan, we just brought Saint to his own dead body to get the data we needed, and then we just went straight to the Conductor

granted there were a few minor additions/changes they could have made to convey this idea a bit better

but this is basically what I figure is the reason why we had to escape

[slim elk]

Yeah.
I mean, the Conductors whole plan isn't exactly the most evil

[dim minnow]

it seems more like she is planning on converting everything to Vex and using the Echo to control it

[slim elk]

A way to neutralize the Vex as a threat and reestablish the Golden Age?

The problem is less the Echo and more who has it.

[dim minnow]

the Echo itself seems like a problem

it just turns into an even bigger one if you have a lunatic using it

just look at what Maya regressed into when she found the Veil

[slim elk]

It's a resource to be utilized lol

[dim minnow]

peak irony is the dynamic between Maya and Clovis

[slim elk]

So far, haven't seen any corruption effects from the Echo itself

Just got into the hands of a mad Maya variant

[dim minnow]

at what point is the "tool" so powerful it shouldn't even be in anyone's hands?

[dim minnow]

might not even really be a variant, but the real Maya

[slim elk]

That's a bit hypocritical of an argument considering all the paracausal power we have lol

[dim minnow]

I wouldn't really equate our power to the Echo

besides, it took a lot of conflict for humanity to get to the City Age

[tough kettle]

maya literally wants to turn people into vex... thats pretty damn bad XD

[dim minnow]

Risen weren't exactly the most altruistic

there's also the origin of the Ghosts to consider

[slim elk]

Yeah that is.
The part about hijacking the Vex entirely and neutralizing them as a threat though?

That's definitely worth investigating

[ember storm]

Well her plan is to just use radiolaria to physically convert those she can’t control into vex, so

She’s completely rearranging the solar system to her own ideal image of what humanity should be

[dim minnow]

unfortunately, the person with the Echo doesn't want to stop there

[ember storm]

Plus we don’t know if the echoes all have the same power

Probably not considering Fikrul just put his on a stick

[dim minnow]

and the Echo is purely an object that allows one to compel the minds of others which is just flat out not a power one can be trusted with

[ember storm]

Seeing as Ikora specifically dubbed this one the “Echo of Command” I’m assuming their abilities are unique

[tough kettle]

i dont think its possible to do that, and especially because she wants to control everything, thats a slippery slope she's already gone way too far down

[dim minnow]

we don't even know what his does yet

[ember storm]

Well they said vampire right

Maybe his power makes him and his army able to infect living fallen too

[dim minnow]

maybe absorb the power of another?

[ember storm]

Either way he got a sick new fit

[dim minnow]

Echo of absorption?

[ember storm]

Totally worthy of a Matt Mercer villain role

[slim elk]

Technically he has that already with dark ether exposure

[dim minnow]

would kind of fit with his ideaology

[ember storm]

That specifically requires a corpse and pumping it with dark ether

[dim minnow]

how he thinks anything is a tool shaped by their wielder

like life and death, Light and Dark

[ember storm]

I mean hordes of scorn just running down fallen crews, biting them, and immediately having them added as new scorn

Maybe they’ll have new mutations

I always thought there was more wiggle room besides knockoff ogres and walking tumors

[slim elk]

My guess it may actually give them more intelligence

[ember storm]

His scorn already have the most intelligence out of any

They can actually speak

The witness’ scorn were the brainless zombies

[dim minnow]

Echo of Command seemed to kinda alrady do that, at least in a specific way

Vex affected by it were acting way outside of how normal Vex acted

[ember storm]

The irony is that Fikrul is so stuck up in his ways that his scorn are all being held back from further development and progress because he’s just ingrained them with his own personal ambitions

[ember storm]

Maya mentions that her vex are now autonomous and very adaptive in breach executable

She uses it as a threat when you’re escaping to the boss encounter

[dim minnow]

yeah, pretty much like that

not directly making them smarter, but still in the same vein

[ember storm]

It’s worth noting that they’ve been mentioned to have human characteristics in particular

So it’s definitely still all leading back to her

[dim minnow]

though I'm not big into Elden Ring lore, Maya reminds me a lot of Miquella

[ember storm]

They are acting with her design

She apparently likes how precursor vex look in particular too

[slim girder]

Seeing as the echo is called the echo of command I wonder if the other echoes have other abilities. Like the echo of gravity or echo of mind if that makes sense

[ember storm]

Echo of taxation

Do your forms

[little gorge]

yeah why did she turn those goblins into precursors

[cinder geode]

I don't think those were precursor I think those were choral vex

[little gorge]

those are precursors

or at least look like them

[stark fjord]

Is felwinter exo Jesus?

Think about it

He’s the child of a god (raspy)
He was given blessing by said god (access to rasputins archive, given shelter and given access to siva)
Was killed in the name of said god (pre-guardian)
Comes back to life
Dies a 2nd death

Like the implications

Am i the only person who got this idea?

Not in chronological order btw

[void loom]

guardians have been to multiple dimensions which all from what i know are 3D, does that mean there’s a possibility for a guardian to traverse 4D?

[small quartz]

I mean

4D isn’t like possible to comprehend

[cinder geode]

Foundry lore?

[blazing wasp]

Elaborate

[cinder geode]

Weapon foundries like veist, hakke, omolon do we have any lore on those?

[blazing wasp]

I mean kinda, they're foundries, they make guns, generally specialise in certain things and have recognisable names to them

[ember storm]

Tex mechanica once tried bribing Shaxx to rig a few crucible matches in their favor

He sent Arcite to beat their asses

[trim grotto]

More specifically, he had Arcite threaten to send a fireteam of Titans to beat their asses. Which I would argue is more amusing

[ember storm]

He beat them with words that hurt their feelings

But honestly I like it when the combat frame that’s permanently on-edge and off duty gets to spread his wings when Shaxx just points at someone he doesn’t like and goes “sic ‘em”

[slim girder]

Echo of IRS.

[vast kiln]

Guyuys

[trim grotto]

I sincerely did not need to read that.

[slim girder]

[ember storm]

What did I miss

[fast tapir]

im not sure

but im guessing it was very good

[frosty belfry]

does xur and the nine have paracudal powers?

[ember storm]

yes, but you want to gauge your expectations

"Paracausal" is a blanket term for anything that's above the basic rules of reality and physics

[young wraith]

Echo of Tax Evasion

[ember storm]

the traveler and veil are paracausal, sure, but so are the little lucent hive moths that Savathun just stuffs with light

the nine in concept can't really do anything

its their whole mo

they dont have physical bodies and cant really interact with the universe

its why they have xur and the emissary in their corner in the first place

xur doesnt really do anything either

like he says, his will is not his own

he only does what the nine tell him to

[frosty belfry]

yes ik