📚lore-discussion

[safe galleon]

reminds me of how miyamoto(iirc) in an interview described mario 64 mario as 'a hamster let loose in a room' or something to that effect

[ember storm]

remember when that awoken paladin went to the last city to beg for the guardian’s help (something that Petra was supposed to be doing, by the way, fuck you petra)

[safe galleon]

guardians would make good scientists and biologists and stuff to be fair. no need for safety protocols if you can just get resurrected immediately after

[ember storm]

tell that to the thorn research team

[safe galleon]

well yeah but that sounds like Space Magic Science to be fair, judging by the name

[shadow crypt]

what’s lore behind thorn and lumina

are they the same guns

[safe galleon]

and Space Magic Science is a few rungs above Earth Science

[shadow crypt]

if im getting this right

and rose

[ember storm]

Lumina is the original thorn, cleansed and then further enhanced through the light

Rose was the original gun, but corrupted by the hive

We found its remains and cleansed it

if you’re asking about backstory, do you know who Dredgen Yor was?

[shadow crypt]

the rogue guardian right

who killed a bunch of other guardians

[ember storm]

and normal people yeah

[shadow crypt]

was yor like possessed or something

when he started killing

all those guardians

[ember storm]

no

he just did it

[safe galleon]

i do not. do you know the name of the entry or keywords to look up so i can pull it up on ishtar

[shadow crypt]

Oh wow lol

[ember storm]

like he saw his gun got cursed and shot darkness and he just took the opportunity

dude didn’t hear about resigning from a position he didn’t care for

decided to go out with a bang (literally)

he was disintegrated

[safe galleon]

he did it for the funny obviously

did perhaps a smidge too much trolling

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/abide-the-return

[safe galleon]

i found it literally a minute before u sent this but thank you

this is beautiful

i like how in-lore guardians and player guardians are weighed as being equally canon-compliant

like its not at all out of place within the context of the story for guardians to start dancing at woefully inappropriate moments

[river ruin]

its everywhere now and its boring. everything now is "everything is connected and the bad guy is just misunderstood or something" and when its not that its something that is cartoonaly evil

[jagged badge]

That’s literally not the case though

At least not in Destiny

No one’s tried to claim that the Witness is just “misunderstood”

[river ruin]

never said that

you are misreading what i post again

[jagged badge]

Even with the Hive’s origin of being tricked by the Witness, it still can’t excuse all they’ve done

[river ruin]

its getting like that tho

[jagged badge]

It’s really not

[river ruin]

it is

[jagged badge]

Okay lmao

[trim grotto]

hush ye, folks
these are just opinions and not lore
to paraphrase Rahool
"Speak to me not of your opinions, I want no part."

[shadow crypt]

Does rahool have any cool lore

[river ruin]

no

its rahool

i am rahools number 1 hater

[trim grotto]

There is lore
There isn't really any cool lore

[shadow crypt]

he’s a goat for decrypting my engrams

🙏

[river ruin]

should be a mechanic you do by yourself

i am rahool and shaw hans number 1 hater

[trim grotto]

mechanics? i don't know the first thing about engines

[sick yew]

Is decrypting engrams even complicated?

Encrypting something into an engram is that im sure but the other way around?

[jagged badge]

Cryptarchs specialise in the processing of decoding encrypted data so I assume it is a specialist kinda process

That being said, we do have engrams that auto decode so who knows

[trim grotto]

Even the Reef has its own Cryptarchy branch

[ember storm]

*had

[jagged badge]

I dunno what the line here is between gameplay and lore when it comes to engrams

[ember storm]

pretty sure the idea is Rahool just gives us a bunch of random shit as rewards for giving him engrams

oh also

[jagged badge]

Engrams are the rewards no?

[ember storm]

update on the stock ghost png used in the Zavala son death cutscene

[jagged badge]

Literally items encrypted as data?

[ember storm]

it’s not an official image

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1770927690

[sick yew]

Engrams are like digitalized matter yeah

They somehow figured a way to store a gun as a bunch of 1s and 0s

and then also revert that back into the physical form

[jagged badge]

Certified Wilhelmina moment

I think

[fresh zephyr]

It'd be amusing if we ever saw the other Bray siblings get rezzed

[jagged badge]

I had such insane cope that we were gonna meet Wilhelmina in Lightfall I’m ngl

Or that she’d at least be a founder of Neomuna

[sick yew]

I somehow completely forgot who that was

One of the Brays no?

[fresh zephyr]

That would've been cool as hell

Though I am glad they brought the Ishtar Collective back

So I'll take what we got.

Everytime I see this Vex enemy, it just feels like major Disciple vibes

[jagged badge]

Yeah

[fresh zephyr]

She's the one who made SIVA I believe, if I remember right

It would be cool if she did reappear though, since she was trying to find her own method of immortality through nanotech. Would be interesting if she managed it. But I think Bungie has had their fill of Brays and that plot line is about filled out aside from dealing with Clovis finally.

[patent swallow]

Am I the only one that feels like Osiris and saint were very forced as a couple, they have like, 0 chemistry. At all. Even with the new dialogue for Echoes I just can't really seem to buy into it

[trim grotto]

well i think most people got used to it since it's been established for a few years now

about four years in fact

[patent swallow]

Thought it was revealed at the end of plunder when Osiris got woken up with Neztea

[trim grotto]

no

Season of Dawn, Shadowkeep era

[fresh zephyr]

It's been mostly a thing since Arrivals.

[patent swallow]

Ah ok

[fresh zephyr]

With Prophecy

[patent swallow]

Idk, I think it mostly comes from my hatred of Osiris

Lightfall made me hate him a lot

[fresh zephyr]

Which it was a bit of a retcon since they weren't romantically involved before that. But it's whatever, since they do stuff like it so often.

[trim grotto]

I don't know if that's a retcon so much as an expansion of their relationship

They don't really retcon that often

[fresh zephyr]

I mean...in Dawn, Osiris and Saint constantly called each other brother. Osiris even had a dialogue were he thanked us for saving 'his brother' when talking to us about our help. If they had just been friends at that point, and then later got romantically involved, that wouldn't have been a retcon. But it was changed so that they've always been in a relationship long before we met them, since Tallulah was the Hunter Vanguard.

And they do a lot of retcons. At least what I would consider as such, anyways. What they did with Light and Darkness in Lightfall is probably the biggest one that's recent, since it chafes so hard with what was previously established.

[trim grotto]

I'm sure I recall a comment from one of the devs about Osiris and Saint being written as (or intended to be) partners during Dawn but I've lost the source

Alas

[modern lodge]

Sauce

[trim grotto]

I wouldn't call that a retcon, no. It's more of a redefining of what we know - a retcon is more changing the past and just... presenting it as if this is how it always was

Lore has pretty consistently referenced our changing understandings

This is mostly a debate of semantics though

[jagged badge]

https://vxtwitter.com/sphynxian/status/1332749025733275649?s=46&t=qJ8b5Jx522rkNBkKGl2ySw

[fresh zephyr]

I'd consider something a retcon if it goes against the original intent of the writer who wrote it, myself. Seth came up with most of the original stuff for Light and Darkness, Unveiling and so on and he's pretty much outright said Bungie canned his original approach to it all.

[jagged badge]

https://vxtwitter.com/sphynxian/status/1332749029877362689?s=46&t=qJ8b5Jx522rkNBkKGl2ySw

The embed doesn’t say but these tweets are from 2020

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah, I remember the tweets.

[trim grotto]

I KNEW IT WAS ROBERT

ah i was looking throughout Ishtar under vexbit

[jagged badge]

There are advantages to me being on Twitter sometimes

[fresh zephyr]

And maybe the writers did intend for them to be together early on, but we know all about the whole thing where Bungie's leadership clamped down hard on LGBT stuff in the past and they had to 'sneak stuff in' like Devrim.

[trim grotto]

True, though of course Seth was always a contract writer rather than a narrative team member
Nevertheless, I personally wouldn't define that as a retcon, per se

[trim grotto]

_> yeah that was a whole thing

Glad we've moved past that, it seems

[fresh zephyr]

Indeed.

[modern lodge]

That was Activision days Correct

[fresh zephyr]

No, just Bungie's own leadership

[trim grotto]

Well, yes, but this was an internal issue.

[modern lodge]

Right

[trim grotto]

So if you see folks celebrating the Old Guard of Bungie, just
Y'know
Pinch of salt

[jagged badge]

Marty O’Donnell is such a great guy, bring him back!

[patent swallow]

Thats funny because now there are 0 current straight couples among the main ensemble of characters

Typo

[jagged badge]

Drifter and Eris moment

[patent swallow]

Oh shit

Forgor

Ignore that point

[fresh zephyr]

The CEO and all the suits need to go tbh

[trim grotto]

undergoing a very sane manoeuvre at this point in time

[modern lodge]

Zavala caitle? Maybe a reach

[patent swallow]

Isn't he running for congress lmao

[fresh zephyr]

Literally everything we keep hearing that comes out of Bungie just tells us they've been the problem

[trim grotto]

yes
basing his campaign on Discord with AI "generic space soldier" images

[fresh zephyr]

Like the writers and the devs wanted to make a Pyramid/Darkness race years ago, but leadership never allowed it because they thought a new race was a waste of time.

[ember storm]

For the record, that’s in the “spiritual” sense

They called each others ghosts sisters

And Saint called speaker Father

[fresh zephyr]

Sure, but I have literally never heard of a couple in my life call each other 'brother' or 'sister' to other people, much less when they are talking to each other regardless of the sense. But like I said, it's whatever.

[ember storm]

notice how they stopped after they realized their feelings

it’s not like “we are best friends and now we are in love”

the feelings were always there, that’s how relationships work

it just took them a while to figure it out

[fresh zephyr]

That's the thing. There was no realization of feelings. They've literally been in an established relationship for hundreds of years according to the new lore.

[ember storm]

they literally say it directly in last week’s helm radio

[fresh zephyr]

Yes

They got together when Tallulah was the Hunter Vanguard

And she died centuries ago

[trim grotto]

Well that I was unaware of
Haven't caught up to that yet

[ember storm]

No

They say the opposite

[patent swallow]

All this to say, saint is literally my favorite character in the game

[modern lodge]

Tsk tsk lore gremlin

[ember storm]

Tallulah shipped them long before they actually did anything

https://youtu.be/Fvt4-i2UhBo?si=qQBs9rCtPqFzgDB_

[trim grotto]

I'm taking my time with it
Plus my buddy got me playing Balder's Gate 3, so

[sick yew]

Tallulah might be the most based character in all of Destiny lore
Imagine coming face to face with an Ahamkara and going "aight lets play poker"

[ember storm]

she also started the trend of Hunter vanguard being the worst job in the system

[patent swallow]

Saint is cooler

[ember storm]

who’s the real winner here

bets are out on how long crow lasts

I’m going to say a century at most

[trim grotto]

Okay but how many died whilst actually doing their jobs

Instead of
Playing poker with a dragon

[ember storm]

well let’s see

Cayde was doing the opposite of his job

He just ran off to hang out with Petra because he wanted to

[fresh zephyr]

Yes. Tallulah shipped them back then. They got together not long after that, while she was still alive. It's literally in the same entry you linked.

[sick yew]

Meets an Ahamkara
Dares it to play poker
Bets her actaual life
Loses
Hands guy her bow
Refuses to elaborate
Dies

Can one get more based?

[modern lodge]

Banger game, what race and class?

[trim grotto]

Gnome Bard because the prospect seemed incredibly amusing to me

[fresh zephyr]

I think technically only Andal?

Well, maybe Cayde

[modern lodge]

Bard 💤💤💤💤💤

[sick yew]

She did get tricked by the speaker so it do kinda be on her

[fresh zephyr]

If you think his stupdity in the Prison of Elders was doing his job

[modern lodge]

Dragonborn paladin/sorcerer YIPEE

[ember storm]

it wasn’t a trick

it was just her ego

[patent swallow]

Sounds like she just sucked at poker tbh

[trim grotto]

Your opinion means nothing to me for I have a funny lute and little legs

[sick yew]

Well yeah the speaker tricked her by playing into her ego

[ember storm]

literally just “idk if I want this job”

“I guess you’re just not up for it”

[sick yew]

Lets be real playing poker against a mf wish dragon

Who can blame her

[ember storm]

she should’ve just cheated

that’s how you win games against demons

[sick yew]

And get outcheated by the dragon

The Ahamkara probably also cheated anyway

Kind of their whole thing if you think about it

[patent swallow]

I mean she was playing a wish dragon did she really think she'd win

[ember storm]

pretty sure it was disguised as an old man at first

midway through the game it just revealed itself

[patent swallow]

Ah ok

[sick yew]

I mean yeah
Huge ego and so on

[modern lodge]

Get away from me mini man, my mind maxed Dragonborn paladin will crit and do like 100+ damage per hit

[patent swallow]

Was saint around during the great hunt? When did he get lost?

[sick yew]

Lore moment

[ember storm]

wish you could do more with the goblins in bg3

[modern lodge]

Real

[modern lodge]

Kill em, that's all you need to do

[ember storm]

but they’re funny

also holy fucking shit

did you see what they did to the Keebler elf

[sick yew]

Pretty sure during that time he was still in his personal crusade against every Eliksni under the sun

[ember storm]

my god

horror

[patent swallow]

Imagine going to play poker against a wish dragon and the dragon just pulls out a yugioh deck and pulls exodia and you just fucking die

[sick yew]

[patent swallow]

"Man I hate poker I wish we were playing yugioh rn"

[sick yew]

"go fish"

[ember storm]

hm

do you think an ahamkara could make Garfield real

[patent swallow]

Yes

[cloud kindle]

Does Mara have access to Riven's clutch post-TFS?

[ember storm]

no

[cloud kindle]

Does anybody?

[ember storm]

no

that was the deal

we ensure the next generation of ahamkara is safe to be freely born and riven helps us with the portal

so we don’t “have” the eggs

they’re probably already hatched or about to be

[fresh zephyr]

That's probably gonna be a disaster waitng to happen

[sick yew]

Well we won once

Now for round 2

[cloud kindle]

Is that to be honored beyond Riven's seemingly final moments (despite transcending death)

[ember storm]

we just let them all go before she held up her end of the deal

so we’d have to go and find them all again as live ahamkara now

[fresh zephyr]

We'll probably give them a fair shot not to be apocalyptic harbingers of doom before we hunt them down

[cloud kindle]

https://tenor.com/view/hmm-suspect-gif-22611582

[ember storm]

One of them is probably going to find an echo and eat it or something

[fresh zephyr]

rofl

Oh jeez

That'd be a borked combo

[cloud kindle]

Right

[ember storm]

Again we don’t really know how they work

[cloud kindle]

They'll eat an echo and bump into Kelgorath at the same time, who wishes to just...not lose so much

[ember storm]

but apparently Fikrul can just put it on a goddamn stick and use its power

so anything is possible

maybe we crush one up and make a new drink

[fresh zephyr]

Indeed

[ember storm]

Give Osiris godlike power

[cloud kindle]

*Kelgorath

[fresh zephyr]

I mean hell, if the Maya theory is right and I think it is given the lore cards, she apparently just found it and could immediately start fucking with the Vex.

[ember storm]

if Kelgorath doesn’t show up in heresy I’ll be very upset

[fresh zephyr]

Annnd servers are gone

I should go to sleep

[ember storm]

good thing I picked up the ev ornaments yesterday

[stark fjord]

Is ikora bald or does she shave it is there any lorebooks that talk about it

I kinda wanna know

[stark fjord]

Hive Taniks

[ember storm]

He’s more Taniks than Taniks is now

[ember storm]

I mean

You can see her head

It’s shaved

Zavala is full bald

[stark fjord]

The final taniks: nightmare of splicer scorned taniks-1 the corrupted wrathborn

[stark fjord]

That’s so wholesome

[prime summit]

Question cause I don't even know where it was said cause I don't read lore

Where does it mention that Micah-10 is trans if she is. Cause iv been hearing she is and I wanna read the entry
Cause I wanna see transfem :3

[fresh zephyr]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-your-friend-micah-abram

That's from when Micah was a child

[stark fjord]

What’s their pronouns

[lofty badge]

is micah-10's pronus mentioned ingame?

i can't remember

[jagged badge]

She/her

[prime summit]

I'm pretty sure it's she/her. I don't know tho

[jagged badge]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/embraced-identity

[prime summit]

Cause I believe she's be talked about before tfs. Cause she like the ghost saver or whatever her title is. Cause she the opposite of the person who made... thorn I think?

[jagged badge]

Not quite. She’s known as a Den-mother of Ghosts. Guiding and befriending them and helping them find their Guardians. This put her at odds with Cyrell, who hunted Ghosts under the belief it was immoral and wrong for them to raise the dead basically

[river ruin]

Cyrell was the true hero

[prime summit]

Thank you. Cause I knew there was like. Two opposite people doing completely different things with ghosts and I remember the good one being mentioned as the only canonical transfem guardian

[jagged badge]

[jagged badge]

Aye

[prime summit]

Cause (to my knowledge) the only trans characters in lore are Micah-10 and Oryx

[jagged badge]

Cyrell was a bit mentally fucked up, I believe his own Ghost says how they should have let him stay at rest

Well, there are a few enby characters if you count them

[prime summit]

True

Nimbus was missed potential

Qmq

[jagged badge]

There’s also Stargazer

[river ruin]

Nimbus should have never existed

[prime summit]

Mostly a me thing cause I just don't like the surfer dude personality

[river ruin]

I'm am nimbus' number 2 hater

[prime summit]

Cause that's how they act. Like some stereotype surfer dude in movies

[fresh zephyr]

Nimbus is decent when they are being serious

And not making fart jokes

[final stream]

That’s not often

[prime summit]

Oh absolutely. Him going through the mental.stuff about losing Rohan was good during the mission. But that's about it

[rapid mango]

Which exotic canonically has the most power?

I was thinking whisper what with Xol being part of it

[fresh zephyr]

They were decent in the post-campaign quests. Hoping that if they do reappear in the story, they stick with that personality

[jagged badge]

Them, but yeah I like their development in the post-campaign and Veil Containment

[river ruin]

The one we turned oryx into

[rapid mango]

which one is that?

touch of malice?

[jagged badge]

Oryx wasn’t turned into an exotic

[river ruin]

Yeah

[rapid mango]

that wasn't oryx, I thought it was part of his sword?

[jagged badge]

Oryx still exists as an entirely intact corpse

[river ruin]

Potato potato

[jagged badge]

That’s apparently still semi-alive

[rapid mango]

under titan?

[fresh zephyr]

We turned his heart into a gun, technically.

[jagged badge]

Titan

[river ruin]

Nom nom nom

[rapid mango]

yeah it's a shame that lore is off limits to me

[river ruin]

Get yo money up playa

[jagged badge]

I understand them being a little off-putting to people during the campaign but I genuinely do not and will never understand the utter vitriolic hate they get as a whole

[river ruin]

Garbage character introduced into a garbage expansion

[fresh zephyr]

I'd say a lot of it is because they used Nimbus to cut into moments when things were serious or we were getting answers to cut things off

[jagged badge]

That doesn’t excuse the way I’ve seen some people talk about them

Like, it’s reasonable and valid to not like them

But some people are just utterly weird about it

[rapid mango]

they feel like the wacky comic relief character in old crappy cartoons, but they're not a side character

I don't agree with some of the stuff people say though

[final stream]

It’s doing the campaign three times

[jagged badge]

Like, the way I saw people getting angry about Nimbus showing up in Excision. No dialogue, all they did was be there and help us with ammo and orbital lasers, and there’s still people whining

Insane

[fresh zephyr]

Like when Osiris was actually explaining the Veil, Bungie had them jump in and make a fart joke. Then the whole scene with Caiatl after we killed Calus. It's easy for Nimbus to basically be seen as a scapegoat for everything wrong with LF.

[final stream]

I don’t think I know what the radial mast does, did they ever get around to it

[rapid mango]

I do wonder, how does an orbital laser work when it's outside the traveller? 🤔

[jagged badge]

Uhhh

[fresh zephyr]

Not really, no

[river ruin]

They got ships in there

[fresh zephyr]

Some people speculated that it might've been related to the Gift Mast from the Books of Sorrow

But nothing was ever said in the lore about it

[final stream]

That’s like an airstrike though

[fresh zephyr]

It basically disappeared after the campaign

[final stream]

Oh okay

[river ruin]

And can be an orbital laser

[jagged badge]

It’s an artifact of Light that was intended to be used to forge the connection to the Veil. After its destruction, the Witness lured us down there so it could use our Ghost to achieve this instead

[final stream]

The veil was the people threads thing right

[fresh zephyr]

Not quite

[river ruin]

No

[final stream]

Or is that strand

[river ruin]

No they were just digital people

The veil is the big eye of cuthulu looking thing

[jagged badge]

The Veil is the Darkness equivalent of the Traveler pretty much

[fresh zephyr]

That's Strand, and it's just an energy field the Veil puts off as a side effect. The Veil is basically the Darkness equivelent of the Traveler, and they used to be a single entity

We don't really know much about if it has a mind of it's own or anything like that though

[jagged badge]

We know it’s sentient and that it named itself

[fresh zephyr]

?

Where was this stated?

[river ruin]

Veil containment I think

People around it herd wispers

[jagged badge]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/perfect-pitch

[final stream]

Did they contain the veil?

[jagged badge]

Maya learned the name from whispers from the Veil too iirc, but before this SMG’s lore tab you could assume that could have been the Witness

[river ruin]

Yes

[fresh zephyr]

Ooooh that explains it

I hadn't seen that one yet

Cool deal

[jagged badge]

Savathûn hid the Veil on Neptune and then when the Ishtar Collective arrived, they built a containment facility around it to study it

[final stream]

So is it still a thing

What’s it up to

[jagged badge]

It just sits there on Neptune

[river ruin]

Chillin

[jagged badge]

Unknown if it has an agenda of its own

[fresh zephyr]

Well, if it was the Veil entirely whispering to Maya

Then it taught her the same 'Salvation' rhetoric used by the Witness

And guided her along a similar path

[prime summit]

I will never not love the fact both Shaxx and Saint-14 outside of combat are some of the sweetest guardians ever rn

Right now anyways

[final stream]

What happened to Maya after she turned herself into exo witness

[prime summit]

Old Shaxx is terrifying

[fresh zephyr]

She made Lakshmi from a bunch of dead Exo and herself

And then sometime later, after an unknown amount of time

She jacked herself into the Veil through the Conductor's chair and did...something

Whatever she did killed her body

It's unknown if her mind survived or what she was actually trying to do

[final stream]

Excision needs a drake tank

What’s going on with Savathun now, after Eris killed her

Does she no longer have the lie stuff

[fresh zephyr]

She's....being Savathun, basically.

We don't really know what she's up to

[prime summit]

No. She still does lie and plan and etc. She just isn't the Vanguards Priority rn

[jagged badge]

She didn’t before Eris killed her. As in, she didn’t gain tribute from lies and deception and such. That was only a thing when she had her worm

Eris killing Savathûn stole all the stored tithes she had from before becoming a Lightbearer, since no other Hive had claimed it from her

[final stream]

So now she just schemes because it’s her thing then?

[fresh zephyr]

That and she has some kind of long term goal she's still working toward

We know, at the very least, that she wants to remake the Hive

And do away with their old structured hierarchy

So that individual Hive can pursue their own paths

And a lot of her lines imply that she wants to go beyond Light and Darkness, which matches up with what Nokris told us in Arrivals about Savathun looking for a 'third way'.

What that means is up in the air.

[final stream]

Cool

Thanks

Are we going to get some Nine stuff since the witness is dead

Or did they care?

[fresh zephyr]

No idea

They haven't really been mentioned at all in TFS

[prime summit]

We're going back to vex if I remember right

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah

It's Vex in Echoes, then Scorn in Revenant, then Hive in Heresy

[prime summit]

Basically more elaborating on whatever the hell was going on in vanilla d1

[final stream]

More hive heresy?

[fresh zephyr]

It's supposedly about Xivu, Savathun, and Eris

And we go back to the Dreadnaught.

And there is some new 'eldritch power' that's going to appear in it

[prime summit]

Finally

Was wondering what happened to the dreadnought after we kinda lost control of everything during red war

[final stream]

Are the scorn on the tangled shore?

[fresh zephyr]

Not that we know of

They mentioned some kind of 'Awoken Tower' that'll be the setting for it

[prime summit]

Dead orbit?/j

Pretty sure dead orbit is already long gone

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah, they attempted to leave the system after all the stuff that happened in Splicer

Who knows if they made it past the Witness or not

They haven't been mentioned since

[eager trout]

What's the explanation for Quicksilver Storm's catalyst making it a Strand weapon?

[green cobalt]

strand wasn't out yet

[fresh zephyr]

Uuuh

If I remember right

Quicksilver Storm actually has some kind of onboard semi-AI

And it actively learns from us

[green cobalt]

SILVA real

[fresh zephyr]

So presumably it learned from us using Strand and could mimic it. But it's probably not that deep.

[gentle geyser]

SILIVA SUBCLASS

[green cobalt]

REALLLL

[rapid mango]

SIVA Subclass when?

[final stream]

red subclass?

[rapid mango]

I'd love a subclass themed around the tormentor powers

[eager trout]

So...it could technically learn to be any type of weapon?

[river ruin]

so being annoying?

[rapid mango]

doesn't DARCI have an on-board AI as well?

[trim ember]

Why are hunters represented by a snake?

[fresh zephyr]

Snakes are stealthy

[trim ember]

Is that the actually reason?

[jagged badge]

Tormentors just use Void so uhh…any of the Void subclasses

Throw a Suppression grenade. Congrats you’re a Tormentor

[gentle geyser]

So void

[viral cedar]

Are orix’s sisters still alive?

[analog torrent]

Yeah
Savathun helped us out in the fight against the Witness
Xivu Arath is mortal, somewhere

[hearty dagger]

Would Xivu be able to theoretically regain immortality by claiming the Dreadnaught?

[stark fjord]

Savvy is immortal and xivu is mortal

[wheat flower]

That's just void

Literally just void suppress with insane dr

[rapid mango]

no no I meant the attacks

Not the element

[gentle geyser]

So void

The attacks are very similar to void in general

A tormentor is just the void subclass

[hearty dagger]

Tormentor attacks would be more likely to appear on a Void Exotic Glaive, We almost never get abilites based on what our enemies can do.

[compact sky]

destiny 2

[safe galleon]

so when we fight nezarec, how representative is it of how he was before the collapse? do we know if he's stronger? weaker?

[ember storm]

well it’s not like he was running around on planet killing people

[hearty dagger]

I imagine that he's stronger to some degree since he was reborn with light.

[ember storm]

he was just sitting around making the pyramids do things

as for actual strength level, your guess is as good as any

he did have some access to the light thanks to his new body, but that was a new body

he was a dismembered corpse for over a thousand years

stands to reason he’d be a little rusty at least

[safe galleon]

speaking of, do we know at all how the old one looks? i think we see statues in the intro to root of nightmares but im not sure if those are Him

[hearty dagger]

We know what the Head looks like. And Tormentors are supposed to be clones of him, so probably pretty similar.

[ember storm]

question is, how much of that we see is clothes or his actual flesh

[safe galleon]

this is either just how he looked before or a member of whatever species he belongs to i think. head shape is the same but it'd be little weird if he specifically had statues in the witness's pyramid

[analog torrent]

What are "tech mites?" They sound similar to Shirazi's Golden Age experiments in grimoire 3

[mellow flicker]

Hello, is it confirmed that Traveler is not omniscient being? Cause from the ghost and the Micah's visions the traveler sounded like a lost child

[ember storm]

I mean the traveler never was

it’s made mistakes and paid for them because it’s been doing what it thinks it should

just look at Savathun

[mellow flicker]

Was Savathun a mistake?

[mellow flicker]

The vanguard for years thought of the traveler as a deity like being. I felt from that Micah's vision that Zavala confirmed his recent suspicions of the nature of the traveler

[ember storm]

yes

[mellow flicker]

To be honest for what I have read Savathun never felt like a mistake

Wasn't she the one that prevented Witness in the age of the dark

Saved humanity or smth

[ember storm]

The traveler didn’t give the hive ghosts specifically

[ember storm]

No and no

[mellow flicker]

It was mentioned in the parasite exotic quest

[ember storm]

Savathun did it only for her own benefit and all she did was kill nezarec

[mellow flicker]

Oh

[mellow flicker]

Oh

So how did she get revived?

[ember storm]

the ghosts chose the hive themselves

[mellow flicker]

Tf

[ember storm]

The traveler wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt and a second chance

[mellow flicker]

Were there normal ghosts choosing the hive

[ember storm]

Savathun basically just spit her face

[ember storm]

That’s what all hive ghosts are

Fynch says it the first time you meet him

None of them had ever had a guardian and after thousands of years of searching, here comes Savathun offering them the only opportunity they’ve always dreamed of

some of them are just genuinely bad people, though

Immaru decided to be Savathun’s ghost because of the position of authority it would land him

[mellow flicker]

I probably missed it or thought that was simply ghosts that were created after the new alliance with the hive

[ember storm]

all ghosts were made at the same time, once

no more before or since

[mellow flicker]

Oh I didn't know that

I thought that hive ghost looked like that because they were created after

I also thought that our ghosts were made to look close to human minds or stuff like that

[ember storm]

they just put on new shells

[mellow flicker]

Lol

And I thought that we were going to see eliksni ghosts because they were the previous race defended by the traveler

[ember storm]

also no

the traveler never gave anyone ghosts before

that’s not how it supported civilizations

[mellow flicker]

Btw is also darkness a sentient being or it is more like an accumulation of energy

[ember storm]

both and it’s the same for the light

the traveler and the veil are the prime sources of primordial light and darkness in their purest forms

light and darkness also just exist in the universe

[mellow flicker]

Then how? Didn't people be able to live longer through ghosts and light?

[ember storm]

no

that was specifically due to technological advances

it’s not like the traveler is constantly emitting health lasers

[mellow flicker]

Yeah, but my 2 options were for understanding if we had darkness talking to us or not

[ember storm]

it wouldn’t be just “darkness”

in their simplest forms, light and darkness are just powers

[mellow flicker]

Traveler the only stuff we got were those visions with micah and the supposed to be scream during final shape campaign

[ember storm]

the traveler has had a voice for years

that’s why Speakers were a thing

it’s always had trains of thought, it’s just not huge on sharing them

[mellow flicker]

I mean, I left with speaker saying that he was lying about hearing traveler voice in red war

[ember storm]

he lied to Ghaul about having any sort of power over the traveler

[mellow flicker]

Okay, now I need to know.. where is that info about him lying?

[ember storm]

Ghaul took him as prisoner because he thought he could force the speaker into essentially giving him good standing

[mellow flicker]

Cause I need to check it

[ember storm]

The “lie” is just the omission of information

After the collapse, the traveler went to sleep, and no speaker could hear it clearly because it wasn’t directly speaking to them

Their gifts were legitimate, but they needed to cut through the static and only got glimpses of its idle thoughts

[mellow flicker]

Ohhhh

That explains a lot

[ember storm]

the Speaker did this, while also deciding not to properly share all of the speaker tenants that existed before the collapse

[mellow flicker]

Ic

So next thing is: do we know more about the gardener and the winnover or only those terms?

[ember storm]

they’re terms referring to actual concepts

[mellow flicker]

Or some more concrete contact direct or indirect

[ember storm]

the gardener is just what the witness calls the traveler

it has this whole religion based around that

the opposing force of the “Gardener” is the Winnower, which there aren’t specific answers for

[mellow flicker]

Wait, I am kinda sure that gardener and traveler are different beings. Witness called the same way for some reason, but I do remember somewhere seeing that distinction

[ember storm]

they’re just the same thing

Unveiling is metaphorical, religious text, and also delivered to us specifically as propaganda

the witness made up what it believes to be the traveler’s real thoughts and feelings and then wrote them down

[mellow flicker]

I thought that gardener was the being that created the universe

It made sense to me that gardener was a different being than traveler, considering how they have different names referring to different occupations

[ember storm]

again, everything you’re saying is from Unveiling

[mellow flicker]

Just like the winnower

[ember storm]

which is just the witness’ bible

they came up with their own explanations for things and treat it as though it’s all established fact

[mellow flicker]

Ohhh ic

[ember storm]

we don’t know where the traveler or the veil came from

[mellow flicker]

So bias

[ember storm]

the witness is the living embodiment of bias

it sees life itself as pointless struggle and wants to force its ideology onto the whole of existence

[raw hazel]

About that, it seems the Winnower is real.

[mellow flicker]

Yeah, I meant that whatever is written there is explained through witness ideas

[ember storm]

I’m getting to that

[mellow flicker]

I mean, yeah. But the point is about gardener

[ember storm]

and don’t quote the byf video

[mellow flicker]

Winnower was blatantly mentioned by the witness

[ember storm]

the winnower is obviously referring to something

[raw hazel]

I’m talking about the loretab for the Narce ship.

[mellow flicker]

But I was more curious about the gardener

[ember storm]

can you show it pls

[mellow flicker]

Another question: do we know what the witness has been witness of?

[ember storm]

its revelations of “truth” I guess

[raw hazel]

Let's chat, shall we? One more nice sit-down for the books.

Did you think you wouldn't hear from me again, after all this? You'd have missed me, I hope—and I would certainly have missed you.

Have no fear. I'm not so easy to be rid of. Now, let me show you: my beloved.

Oh, no, not my sedimentary necrolite, fossilized in time. You've seen that. I speak of that dear and distant expanse of the universe, miraculous in its fullness and its emptiness all at once.

Are you surprised to hear of it?

Yes, I never much cared for the change of rules, but here we are, and there's no use in crying over spilled radiolaria. Besides, at the heart of it all, there was a gift. To me.

That gift is the chance to speak with you. You, and a billion like you.

I am making this offer over and over again, in every tiniest cell and the vastest of civilizations. Let me in. Take what you need. Be at ease. You have no say in the degradation of your telomeres, but in all the interim, the whole world is your sweet silicate shellfish.

You exist because you have been more suited to it than all the others. Steal what you require from another rather than spend the hours to build it yourself. Break foolish rules—why would you love regulation? It serves you to cross lines, and if others needed rules to protect them, then they were not after all worthy of that existence.

Caricatures of villainy are out of style, I hear. Yes. I am no cackling mastermind: I am serious when I say this. It was not the trick of standing upright that lifted you from the dust: it was the mastery of fire, the cooking of cold corpse-meat. That is not any unique faction's province, neither good nor evil. It is simply truth.

This great, beloved cosmos. Always decaying, always finding that same old lovely pattern, despite every candle-flame burning amid the flowers. A billion electrons taking the path of least resistance. In Darkness or in Light, someone is always making my choice.

Be seeing you.

[ember storm]

the precursors call it “our witness” so it’s something they probably came up with on their own

[raw hazel]

Going off of this tab, it very much seems the Winnower is not only real, but also very much out there somewhere still.

[ember storm]

well we know the veil is capable of speech

[raw hazel]

T r u e

[mellow flicker]

Through the speaker?

Oh no, veil you meant

So darkness, correct?

[ember storm]

again there’s a distinction

you can’t just call it darkness

and you can’t just call the traveler light

there’s a difference between those primordial entities and the powers they give, and furthermore those who use said powers

[raw hazel]

The Winnower, potentially being the Veil.

I think it’s important to note that when we got Unveiling, the artifact we were given was from a Dissenter statue.

[ember storm]

but it was still something the witness utilized

so in conclusion, we got a darkness cellphone and everyone tried getting in our dms

[raw hazel]

I really need to go back and brush up on the times we’ve interacted with Dissenter statues.

Just imo tl;dr: UNVEILING’S BACK ON THE MENU

[mellow flicker]

I call them that way simply because they were usually called like that

They still represent light and darkness

[ember storm]

they were years ago before we properly established the difference

[mellow flicker]

Okay okay

I still feel that gardener and traveler will be distinguished

[ember storm]

one of them is the real thing and the other is fanfiction written about it

that’s the distinction

[mellow flicker]

But I am so confused. How do you know that it is 100% fanfiction. I understand that it is the witness bible and everything, but was the Witness so delusional? Was he acting on its own for making final shape due to interacting with the veil?

[dim minnow]

Gardener is Traveler + Veil as far as I'm aware

[jagged badge]

In the Ahsa cutscene, the Traveler is called the Gardener before they find the Veil no?

[dim minnow]

at this point, it seems like the Gardener and Winnower aren't Light and Dark

[mellow flicker]

Well, not a bad idea to me. There are like bushes with human-like figures similar to a work of a gardener

[dim minnow]

yes, but they also state that the Veil is an entity linked to the Traveler

[mellow flicker]

Idk, I missed TON of stuff

I stopped playing at last wish with forsaken and returned during season of the wish

[dim minnow]

and it is heavily implies that the two were one entity at one point previously

also, the Witness' death marked the end of the war between Light and Dark

[mellow flicker]

Seems like the traveler disliked it so much, considering that fled when witness people tried to merge it with veil

[jagged badge]

Well, not exactly

It fled because the Witness’ people tried to use the Veil’s Darkness with the Traveler’s Light to reshape reality themselves

Like the Witness was doing in Final Shape

[mellow flicker]

Ohh, well you are right

I forgot about them looking at the vail and the life as a total pain and desire of stillness

[dim minnow]

I think the Gardener has to be the Veil and Traveler put together since life needs to be of both Body (Light) and of Mind (Darkness)

[mellow flicker]

Btw, were speakers humans or something close to a ghost?

[ember storm]

just normal people

born with the gift

[mellow flicker]

But ghost can't hear the traveler or what?

[ember storm]

the traveler isn’t speaking to them

[dim minnow]

Speakers are individuals who can receive dreams from the Traveler

[mellow flicker]

Yep, that's what makes me confused even more

Ghost not hearing the traveler while a human with a gift does

[dim minnow]

Speakers are more like interpreters

[ember storm]

speakers were only popping up in the golden age

before ghosts

[mellow flicker]

Also aren't there anymore speaker candidates? I guess not because I would guess they are not that common

[ember storm]

when the traveler finally woke back up in the red war it established it wouldn’t need anyone to speak on its behalf

[ember storm]

you either have the gift or you don’t

[mellow flicker]

Oh

[ember storm]

you can’t apply for the position

[mellow flicker]

So traveler chose

[ember storm]

it’s not even meant to be a “position” of power

[ember storm]

if it did, it was completely arbitrary and random

[mellow flicker]

Ye

Thank you for the comvo

That was interesting

To be honest I hope to actually hear and know more about the real thoughts of the traveler and the veil

Those micah visions were super cool

[slim elk]

By this whole bit..
It does seem the Sword Logic is what the Winnower espouses

Which explains "my man" Oryx

[fierce hemlock]

why was lightfall considered to be a really bad campaign story-wise

i went through the campaign and personally really enjoyed nimbus as a character, yet the reveiws and just about any talk about the campaign everyone seems to dislike him

[analog torrent]

We didn't properly find out what the veil or radial mast was until much later even though the campaign revolved around them, they were just doohickeys to us
Some people also found Nimbus's jokes off-tone even though that was the point of their character

[slim elk]

Tone was really off, key aspects were never explained and their were a lot of plot holes in the writing

(see Strand being randomely in the middle of a street)

Put it another way
This is "prevent the apocaypse" not "ask for high five from the Cabal Empress when her dad died not 5 minutes ago and his corpse is in the room."

[fierce hemlock]

now that you do mention it, one thing i did dislike is nimbus' lack of reaction to rohan's death

[heavy ivy]

Nimbus my goat 🗣️

[fierce hemlock]

it made no sense for him to be cracking jokes after one of his closest allies and friends just died

[jagged badge]

Them, btw

[heavy ivy]

Isn't he like

Five

[jagged badge]

Nimbus is non-binary

[jagged badge]

What?

[heavy ivy]

Cloud Striders die young right?

[fierce hemlock]

fr? when was that mentioned/revelaed

[heavy ivy]

Unless they transformed I don't remember I watched a byf vid lol

[jagged badge]

Not necessarily. Rohan was clearly an older guy when he was augmented

[slim elk]

Yeah, Cloudstriders have a 10 year lifespan after the augmentations

[heavy ivy]

Ah OK so they lived some amount before it

[jagged badge]

It was shown during Season of Plunder in a TWAB that released then. But also they’re referred to by they/them in all dialogue and text and lore and such in/post Lightfall

[slim elk]

Apparently Neomuna never bothered to improve the tech after the first time it happened as a result of an accident

[heavy ivy]

I thought they were like the clones from SW

In terms of aging

[jagged badge]

Nah they’re human volunteers who got augmented

[heavy ivy]

Thanks, AIAT

[fierce hemlock]

ohh i see, btw what was season of the plunder about? i started playing after it ended

[slim elk]

Grabbing parts of Nezaracs corpse to stop the Witness recovering them

We distilled them into nezcafe to wake up Osrisis from the coma

[fresh zephyr]

Man, what the hell

[fierce hemlock]

wait, osiris was in a coma? did that take place after he lost his ghost in witch queen or before

[fresh zephyr]

I go to sleep for a few hours, they do an update, and basically drop the Winnower in our laps

[slim elk]

Side effect of Savathun using him as a meat puppet

[empty fern]

He should be awake now

[jagged badge]

The Witness frees Eramis from her Stasis prison and she begins to enlist old, feared pirate crews to hunt down relics across the system. We form a crew of our own to foil her. We find out that the relics are in fact body parts of Nezarec, and that Mithrax’s mother was one of the Eliksni who found Nezarec dead in the Lunar Pyramid and raided his body for said relics, since they were imbued with very powerful Darkness

So we have to collect the relics to stop the Witness getting its hands on them

[fierce hemlock]

one last thing i didn't get, how did we even beat the witness when he's literally blocked a light beam from the traveler in lightfall (or witch queen i can't remember which campaign it was)

[empty fern]

Raid magic? Not sure tbh

[slim elk]

The Witness is a congolmeration of a species mortal minds combined into a gestalt being.. their were dissenters over the years

[fierce hemlock]

like the witness has proven time and time that he's kindaaa stronger than the traveller, us beating him just seems like a dues-ex machina

[fresh zephyr]

We'd weakened the Witness by destroying the Dissenters who made it up, which weakened it a great deal.

[empty fern]

Ah ok

[slim elk]

They helped us get into the Witness mind and quite literally started wrecking all the minds in their directly

Paracausal lobotomy

[fierce hemlock]

we done lobotomized the witness to win

[heavy ivy]

Witness a bitch fr

[fierce hemlock]

nah have you seen em up close

witness a cutie fr

[slim elk]

Given Zavala's mission in the campaign, it likely gathered up more indivuals from other species into its collective over the years

[heavy ivy]

Seek out therapy

[slim elk]

Given it wanted Zavala in it

[fierce hemlock]

this is adorable

[slim elk]

...
So, yeah. Zavala was right for doing that

[heavy ivy]

I mean

Until it talks?

And waves its hands

And does literally ANYTHING

[fierce hemlock]

i meaaannn, i can give it a pass

out of mind, out of sight

[heavy ivy]

Yeah a pass to the principals office

[fierce hemlock]

[empty fern]

Simple jump and go front left and back right

[raw hazel]

In another server I’m in I’m already seeing that the new argument now is whether the Winnower is the Veil or not lmao

We have come full circle

[slim elk]

Theyll always find something to argue about and never admit they were wrong about lore lol

[heavy ivy]

What do we think about the Light and Dark as concepts within the verse? Are they below, above, or equal to the Winnower and Gardener?

[fresh zephyr]

Below, probably

[fierce hemlock]

why is the traveler praised for being a planet / entitiy that goes around from civilization to civilization, build them from the ground up and then destroy them once they no longer relied on it, then for some reason chose to settle with us, while the witness who is (from what i understood so far) is made up from the conciousness of many dead lives that had to suffer from the traveler's neglect and is actively being opposed for it

[raw hazel]

Because I think you’re reading it wrong

[heavy ivy]

He left the civilizations because it felt it was in danger

[fierce hemlock]

if there's anything i misunderstood lemme know, im not too sure if i got the right idea

[heavy ivy]

The first civ wanted to do something to it against its consent

[fresh zephyr]

....The Traveler never destroyed any civilizations

[heavy ivy]

And that's where the story basically starts

[fresh zephyr]

It builds. The Witness is the one that constantly followed it, and destroyed everything the Traveler touched out of spite

Because it was upset that the Traveler never spoke with it and gave it's people 'meaning'.

[fierce hemlock]

so the witness isn't some vengful spirit who's taking down things the traveler makes due to neglect

[fresh zephyr]

No

It's a spoiled child who had too much time on it's hands

The Traveler literally made the Witness' civilization a paradise

[heavy ivy]

And they demanded meaning from it

[fresh zephyr]

They solved basically every issue that their was to solve

[heavy ivy]

Which they thought it would only give them if it fused with The Veil

[fierce hemlock]

okay, i actually had the COMPLETE wrong idea on how this even works

damn

[heavy ivy]

But Traveler didn't want to fuse with it

You're good, the story telling is pretty poopoo

Imo

[fierce hemlock]

my friend who introduced me to the game's story

he explained the narritive exactly like that

and i assumed this is how it all worked from then on

and was so dissatisfied when i saw the witness dying in final shape

cause it didnt make sense how we would win against the witness

[heavy ivy]

The Traveler gave us super powers

[slim elk]

Yeah, the Witness is actually a race of mortals all distilled into one gestalt being

One of the earliest.. if not the first the Traveler visited

[heavy ivy]

Yeah wasn't the Traveler literally buried in their planet

[fierce hemlock]

and after the traveler essentially fixed all their issues, they all had the itch to know ''why'' it happened, and that's how the witness came to be?

[slim elk]

The biggest effect it'll have post death is it proved the Traveler can be hijacked by mortals and used to their own ends...
And with the Pale Heart open.. theres not a lot to stop others picking up where it left off...

[slim elk]

They wanted to know the meaning of life. The "purpose"

There isnt any in the Destiny verse so they decided to give the universe their purpose

As said though, biggest issue now is that they proved you can hijack the Traveler to become the ultimate power in the universe

A lot of entities are going to try that.. probably starting with the Vex

[heavy ivy]

Could there be complications from the life that the Traveler grew on Nezarec's ship?

[slim elk]

Yeah, it was called Nezarec lol

[fresh zephyr]

To be fair, most of the universe doesn't have the capacity to actually do anything with the Pale Heart

[heavy ivy]

Didn't he grow other silver trees?

Could those be used for something?

[slim elk]

He came back as a result of the travelers beam..

So.. there was the complication

[slim elk]

Yeah.. but we do have someone already messing around in there thats fully capable of it

Her name is Savathun

[heavy ivy]

I know of Root of Nightmares lol

I'm asking if

1. Was there any left post-raid
2. Could those be used by the enemies of Humanity

[slim elk]

Yet to be seen

[heavy ivy]

So many options they can take

[slim elk]

But the big "win condition" is open with the portal..

[heavy ivy]

Yeah for sure

[fresh zephyr]

To do what the Witness did you have to use Darkness, which Savathun by her own admission can't use.

[slim elk]

And do you honestly think that will stop her? heh

[heavy ivy]

Watch her have another mental breakdown and start randomly attacking the air lol

[fresh zephyr]

It's a pretty hard barrier. And she's also reasonably terrified of us, and didn't want to fight us even before we gained Prismatic.

So if she did try to set up shop in the Pale Heart to attempt what the Witness did

[slim elk]

Yeah, the problem is shes already making moves inside the Pale Heart. Shes up to something and is still actively antagonistic towards us

[heavy ivy]

Well that's because The Guardian is Him!!!

[fresh zephyr]

Sure, but whatever she's doing doesn't seem to be about trying to replicate what the Witness did.

[slim elk]

Why we just dont crush Immaru and be done with the threat of Savathun and the Lucent Hive is beyond me

[fresh zephyr]

Only thing I can figure is that the Vanguard thinks that having Immaru offers some degree of leverage and control, and squishing him could provoke Savathun into doing something stupid.

Better to wait till we have her dead to rights

Then crush him

[slim elk]

Thing is, by hive biology if we crush Immaru.. shes dead within the hour

[jagged badge]

Eris and Drifter have grown attached to their new dog ofc

[slim elk]

Remember, Hive cant live without their worms.
The Risen members of the Lucent Hive are reliant on Light in place of the worms

No Light=Dead Hive

[fresh zephyr]

That's assuming Savathun hasn't heavily modified herself

Which we know she has

Her corpse when we actually had it was weird as fuck

[slim elk]

Yeah. Just leaves Savathun without access to light or dark if we crush Immaru even in the worst case scenario for us (unless shes somehow found a way to bypass ghost requirment)

So kill her then, her throne world should collapse.. and that takes care of most of the Lucent Hive

[fresh zephyr]

Eh

Crota's Throne World is still around almost a decade after his death

And Oryx's still existed too

Only baby, barely developed ones like Hiraks seem to actually collapse when their creators actually die.

Hmm...

What does that Nacre ship actually drop from?

It says 'Unlocked by a special offer'.

https://magazine.artstation.com/2024/06/bungie-destiny-2-the-final-shape/

Some cool stuff in there

[slim elk]

Probably some code or award

[ember storm]

Savathun’s was explicitly collapsing due to her death before becoming risen

It’s an established rule

Oryx invented his throne world into the physical space of the Dreadnaught

the whole ship is his throne world but also in normal space

[fresh zephyr]

Where was this stated?

[slim elk]

Think the whole point of that was to bypass the whole issue of the collapse yeah... plus too many occurences of vex invading

[ember storm]

With a fresh mind and searching eyes, the Scheme-Mother-Reborn returned to her throne world, which, without the edge of sword logic, had become a shell of itself.

the distinction is that small throne worlds like the Mindbender’s just collapse immediately because they’re just one room

Something as big as Savathun’s would take time to fully collapse, and she reforged it with light before that happened

[slim elk]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/edge-of-concurrence

So by all accounts, crushing Immaru would cause a pernament end to a Hive God and her entire brood.

Thats one hell of a win

[ember storm]

also this

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/star-jasmine

The wellspring is the only thing keeping her throne world in stable condition

And it needs a steady reserve of light to do so

[slim elk]

Which is probably where all the energy she stole during Splicer went to

[ember storm]

that and however many guardian’s she’s killed and harvested over the years

[slim elk]

(and maybe the Dreaming city curse thrown in as well)

[ember storm]

Savathun’s Song is just an ingame example we personally see

Glint personally recounts that the throne world was remade in light, but “what was made can be unmade” is a popular phrase nowadays

I’m sure if we really wanted to we could destroy it permanently

But bungie said they’re not doing vaulting anymore so

[slim elk]

Yeah, only issue I have is the reasoning in verse we arent crushing Immaru.
We know Savathun is only going to be a persistent problem

[ember storm]

Honestly he’s basically just Eris’ cat now

[slim elk]

Was fully willing to let humanity burn if she actually pulled the Traveler into her world

[ember storm]

if Immaru isn’t personally going over to revive her, there’s no real point to killing her

It’s not like the two see eye to eye ( and eye and eye) anymore

he’s incredibly salty over how she basically just threw him away as a bargained chip

[slim elk]

Yeah, and knowing Savathun shes already looking for ways to not have any effect on her

Shes not the type to let anyone have leverage over her

[ember storm]

she could probably just make a better Ghaul suit than he did with the wellspring

[slim elk]

Course, for now the focus is whatever is enslaving the Vex

[ember storm]

is bungie really thinking it’s going to be a mystery

they can’t write mysteries for shit

[slim elk]

Nah, I want to know the method

[ember storm]

they had to nerf everybody’s iq in WQ just to make it work

[slim elk]

We use that to our own ends.. be quite the fun times

[ember storm]

if Eris was there from the start we’d have it settled in like two missions

[broken relic]

So lore question, and probably asked a lot

Where was the nine in all of the witness fiasco?

[fresh zephyr]

They can't really do much of anything since their ability to interact with the world of normal matter is limited

[broken relic]

Are they a supreme power bigger thannthe witness?

[fresh zephyr]

No

They are entities made up of dark matter

They don't have access to Light or Darkness

[broken relic]

I read from one of the lores that the nine was the one who kinda instigated the red war by disabling the last city’s defenses. I figured if they acted out of curiosity for these two forces of nature , they’d show some interest to this

[ember storm]

It was only one of them, and they played a very small part

They just cut the feed from our surveillance satellites so we couldn’t see the red legion enter the system

[fresh zephyr]

^

[ember storm]

the nine really aren’t very important

[fresh zephyr]

Their ability to act within the physical world is extremely limited at this point in time

They can do some relatively minor things, but that's about it

[broken relic]

That’s a shame, they looked so grandiose

[fresh zephyr]

Now, if they ever actually gained access to paracausality, they could be a threat

And they want to

But it remains to be seen if and when they can do so

[raw hazel]

Mixed Light and Dark are freely flowing from the Traveler now….

[ember storm]

in what way

we haven’t seen them in any capacity

[broken relic]

I just meant appearance wise, they seemed imposing

[ember storm]

again

zero appearance

they have not physically appeared anywhere because they can’t

they do not have any kind of form

that’s kinda their whole deal

they’d very much like bodies, at least some of them do

[blazing wasp]

The nine exo frame when

[ember storm]

their main goal is getting to the point of existence where they’re not reliant on other life existing, since they’re just a bunch of sentient space dust

[ember storm]

all nine in one exo frame

Clovis is also mixed in

comedy ensues, new seasonal plot

Kelgorath is there

[blazing wasp]

Hey wait this is literally how fnaf was at one point

[ember storm]

not really

the blob isn’t anyone in particular

it’s just angry soul juice

[blazing wasp]

No I ment the uh

There was that one bastard that was several of em

Not security breach thing

Edward?

[ember storm]

aren’t they all just ai except for baby though

and baby was evicted

[shadow crypt]

How did Clovis die?

nvm

ik this

i wasn’t thinking straight

[blazing wasp]

Not all but some

I'll have to catch up on the lore

Or, actually

[ember storm]

which ones

[blazing wasp]

I really dont

I'd rather be uncertain about fnaf lore

I'm not going back

[ember storm]

remember when people thought there were four purple guys

[chrome fog]

The Sister Location ones are made specifically of the soul infused metal

[ember storm]

but that’s not possession

Baby is the only one with a full soul

The others are just made with agony

[chrome fog]

It's weird in-between but like there's still soul in there

[safe galleon]

which 4? are you talking ab when they thought mike and william were both purple guy

[ember storm]

Two different purple guy sprites in fnaf 2, mike, and then burntrap

[safe galleon]

icic

[restive nymph]

Who are the рфба ? (a team in the cosmodrome)

Detailed description and all info about them

[ember storm]

not really a team

АЭРОНАВТИКИ, which translates to: Russian Federal Bureau of Aeronautics

just the people running the cosmodrome before it all went to shit

[acoustic trail]

how did hive get ghosts? i dont get it

[dim minnow]

The Traveler planned on blessing the Hive, but the Witness intervened

the Ghosts were always able to rez Hive

[acoustic trail]

i understand that part, but i dont get WHY ghosts would go to hive? since theyre bad? dont they obey the traveler?

[empty fern]

Savathun tricked them (says so by fynch in wq)

[jagged badge]

Specifically, most of the Hive Ghosts are Ghosts who were disillusioned with Guardians after Stasis, or Ghosts who are just depressed at not having found their Guardian yet after so many centuries, or full on Hive fanatics or ones like Fynch who were sorta coerced

[acoustic trail]

i didnt think ghosts where so independent

so ghosts can willingly betray the traveler?

kinda funny that they abandon a guardian for using stasis yet they go to THE HIVE lol

[empty fern]

Yep it happened

[dim minnow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m84xJm5jVeg

[chrome fog]

It’s a major point that Ghosts are allowed to be their own individuals

[empty fern]

What the fuck

[acoustic trail]

i only started playing a week or so ago and so far its been hard to understand all the lore

[empty fern]

Is this gonna be the post final shape scene for the timeline mission?

[safe galleon]

so what exactly is the herald of finality? jokes about it being taniks aside, why was this the person(?) that the witness more or less made one of its last lines of defense?

[empty fern]

Probably another herald like the one in warlords, just a taken of the witness

[dim minnow]

it's a scrapped cutscene

one they were going to use before TFS got delayed

[empty fern]

Damn

So that explains the concept art form a while ago

[safe galleon]

yeah no, ghosts have full sapience and for all intents and purposes are just entirely their own individuals. many stay with their guardians even through hardship and turbulence either out of genuine goodwill, a feeling of obligation, a desire for purpose (more specifically a fear of lacking what they feel is their purpose, to exist in concert with their chosen), or any number of other rationales, but they are entirely capable of making consequential decisions

[stark fjord]

What’s the ziggurat on mars called

[raw hazel]

Do you mean the Enclave?

[acoustic trail]

can you go to mars? besides the envlace

[chrome fog]

Not anymore

Used to be a Destination

[safe galleon]

most have also chosen humans due to a history of hostilities from other species that hadn't really changed until like. a couple years ago, but as already explained, its not a concrete rule that they HAVE to follow. which is why some ultimately chose to resurrect hive guardians

[stark fjord]

Yahh Ty

[safe galleon]

do we know of anyone on neomuna that's been risen as a guardian yet? i recall lightfall has a jisu calerondo bit about ghosts coming there for access to a new population of ermmm

"potential guardians" let's call 'em

[wintry raven]

What causes the dps phase against nezarec? Where is the beam coming from and why lol

[red edge]

Why can Tormentors use Void? I know they were kind of retconned into being part of the Dread for The Final Shape.

But the Omen and Subjugators were made from both Light and Darkness once the Witness went inside the Traveler. Since the Tormentors predate the rest of the Dread, how can they use Void Light?

[safe galleon]

the beam originates from the obelisk his body was contained in. iirc we use the nodes around the room to charge it and turn the obelisk that wiped us in encounter 1 and the parkour pre-explicator against him

[wintry raven]

That’s reasonable, ty

[safe galleon]

you can harness elemental energy without having light to do it. for example, tommy's matchbook, sunshot, and a number of other solar weapons aren't used by directly channeling solar light, they're just incendiary weapons

[jagged badge]

Void ≠ Void Light

[red edge]

Oh. So it's just... Void elemental, not void light. Fair enough.

[safe galleon]

just as thunderlord and other arc weapons are just electroshock weapons. their energy comes from a source. light energy is differentiated in that it doesn't require any tangible "source"

[red edge]

So... their bodies produce elemental void energy?

[safe galleon]

that or their scythes do, or they have some kind of tech to produce void energy, or any number of explanations

the functional thing here is that void light is created, not simply produced by an existant source. when a titan uses a shield bash, they don't have their shield on them. they materialize it and allow it to disperse right after. you can even see guardians just willing armaments into existence when they use their supers

same as how when a hunter throws a knife, that's not just coming from a supply that they hold on their person. they're just kinda pulling it from nowhere

[tacit spindle]

Of all the guardians. Which one swears the most?

[ember storm]

Ikora is the only one with an actual amount of swears

[safe galleon]

wait, seriously?

[ember storm]

she says bitch few times

[safe galleon]

i see i see

[final stream]

Is Asher Mir just old news now

[ember storm]

kinda

he’s just dead

[empty fern]

Pain

[final stream]

Isn’t he a vex now

[ember storm]

he’s dead now

[final stream]

I didn’t do vexcaliber

[ember storm]

he absorbed himself into the vex network as data

he was able to mess around the network a while but eventually he just sorta

fizzled

lost access or just lost himself

[trim grotto]

His mind was scattered across the entirety of the network
And not like, wow, he's everywhere in the network
More like
You threw an apple into a blender

[empty fern]

[trim grotto]

Apple Mir

[final stream]

So he’s just gone?

[broken relic]

Dang it

[trim grotto]

As far as we know, yes
Let me get you the thingymajig

[final stream]

Can we just… splice him back

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/scribetrace-shell

[trim grotto]

Read this and get back to me

[final stream]

I think “If it’s convenient”

Then what was going on in vexcaliber

[trim grotto]

This is the end result of Avalon, after you've uncovered every single secret

And keep in mind that Mithrax, the Splicer, was there the entire time

[final stream]

Oh

Mithrax is a bit noob though, right

Where is brother Vance now?

[trim grotto]

No

[trim grotto]

Very likely been dead for four years or so now

Brother Vance entered the Infinite Forest to seal it from the inside

As a completely mortal blind man inside the beating heart of the most powerful Vex simulation engine in Sol, I doubt he survived.

He may, however, have been simulated. Those may still exist.

[final stream]

Doesn’t he have the data clones too

I don’t remember it very well

[trim grotto]

Data clones?

Are you referring to Osiris's copies?

[final stream]

Yes

Or like the Ishtar copies

[trim grotto]

Osiris's copies were manifested with Light.
Which he has now lost.

The 227 were never inside the Infinite Forest.

[slim elk]

I'm curious to see if one if the AIs is responsible for the Vex enslaving going on over on Nessus

Bungie casually dropped some lore that hard confirms the Winnowers real and still talking with us..

[final stream]

I thought they collapsed all the AI to just be Rasputin

Or is that wrong

[slim elk]

Wrong big time

Your mistaking the subminds of Rasputin for the Ishtar AIs

[trim grotto]

Warminds, specifically. Not AI in general.

[final stream]

There are Ishtar AIs

[slim elk]

Was even a whole lore book about some of the Ishtar AI finding Pradeyth

[trim grotto]

He means simulations.

Of people.

[final stream]

So this

[trim grotto]

Yes

[safe galleon]

what are the physiological implications of being a guardian? or i guess a better question would be, what functionally makes guardians hardier and stronger than normal humans? is it a case of like, your actual body is altered in some way to become more resilient, or is it more like the light itself augments you separate of your body? i always thought the latter was the case as when a guardian loses their light you can see a sort of mirror image of them fading away that leaves them fatigued/weakened

[chrome fog]

Those are simulations not AI

[slim elk]

As said before
I'm curious if one of them is behind what's going on with Nessus

If that's true then we may see Pradeyth

[chrome fog]

But they’re not AI

There’s a distinction made between simulated copies of individuals and AI

[iron mortar]

What was the traveler trying to tell Cayde when he went into the crack of light, during that cutscene

[dim minnow]

Guardian tenets

the fact that Guardians, Ghosts, and the Traveler are all intrinsically linked

it seems that the purpose of the message was to prepare him for his sacrifice at the end

after Excision