📚lore-discussion

[remote sky]

Great disaster sounds like some shit happened on earth and really fucked it up

[analog torrent]

In destiny lore it specifically refers to the moon incident

site 6 is unambiguous if you know what it means

[eager trout]

Yeah, but it doesn't even tell you what happened or where it happened, it just tells you something bad happened

[analog torrent]

same with great hunt

or exodus green

[empty fern]

Then we used the very guardian slaying swords on the hive in the dark below

[lethal inlet]

i dont understand, I tought witch queen betrayed us, but shes fight alongside with us?

[empty fern]

She’s a bit of a funny gal

[analog torrent]

We have a common enemy in the Witness but otherwise she's just doing a little bit of trolling

some tomfoolery, if you will

[lethal inlet]

so during the exotic cayde quest shes just trolling with me

what a QUEEN

[empty fern]

And dual destiny

[fast tapir]

its funny that if you dont select either of the choices at the end of dual destiny she will come in and randomize it for you

[lethal inlet]

if this guy actually have 77k pvp kill on cryostesia I'll be damn

[hearty dagger]

Thats... Actually the funny thing, out of everything that Savathun has done... She's never actually betrayed us, has she?

Like, nothing that Savathun has done so far is something that I would quantify as a Betrayal.

[fast tapir]

i wish

[lethal inlet]

i means shes helping us on season of the witch, but before that on season something from 2 years ago shes not really betrayed us but our enemy right

[lethal inlet]

one day

[hearty dagger]

Yea, she Betrayed the Witness and killed Nezerac, but every time that Savathun has said she'll help us, or do something for us, she eventually does it.

[ancient elk]

Would a guardian still age slowly if they were to lose their ghost and only have darkness abilities? Or would they age normally?

[hearty dagger]

Even when she was masquerading as Osiris, She never really tried to dissuade us from doing something that might not be ideal for her.

[chrome fog]

It’s a bit of a mixed bag of what they do or don’t require as some would point to some of Cayde’s comments on them not requiring food or whatever, but to a varying degree they all need to mimicking humanisms in order to stave off their DER

[ember storm]

It was the entire solar system

Nezarec led the black fleet against the traveler and set out to systematically ruin and destroy everything humanity used it to build

The pyramids were used to incite massive weather phenomena, earthquakes, gravitational distortions, plagues, etc

Actually no that’s the collapse

Sorry it’s almost midnight

The Great Disaster was the vanguard’s first full scale combat against the hive, and if the name didn’t clue you in it was horrible for everyone involved

To put it simply, there were literally zero survivors and it’s the reason the Moon has permanently fractured

[median ivy]

copy and pasting this from another server so sorry for shit formatting

was forsaken a "filler" dlc in a narrative sense? think of the fact that the end of red war was meant to setup the darkness and the pyramids, and then shadowkeep continues that, but forsaken, having to "save" d2, goes into an entirely different direction, seemingly pausing the entire purpose of the red war buildup. almost every yearly campaign has had a relation to the light and dark sagas overall conflict. except forsaken

[eager trout]

Do Guardians have houses?

[trim grotto]

Sloane had an apartment in the City

[eager trout]

And the rest?

[trim grotto]

I suppose you could argue that, sure - but Curse of Osiris and Warmind were not dissimilar

[trim grotto]

Presumably some do and some don't
It's not actually a very well defined topic

[fast tapir]

doesnt Osiris and Saint also have a home in the city?

[lost abyss]

Yes

[chrome fog]

Wait a fucking minute this shit has just been Sav helping us in her annoying ass way, she ain’t scheming shit

[slim elk]

How.. exactly?

She quite literally thanks us for "not interfering as much as we could have" in Queens Pt 2

(The mission right after)

In her own words she's preparing for the "next game" after the Witness..
And leaves her Lucent Hive all around the Pale Heart after the campaign still hostile to us.. according to Crow in the ending cutscene of the campaign she's attempt to take control of the Heart

[slate vapor]

How do you think destiny will continue since the light and dark saga is over? New entity or more hive gods?

[chrome fog]

First mission was just a straight testing of mettle, second mission is us taking care of the Taken and preventing them from being empowered by Light we are unable to percieve

[slim elk]

Initial clean up operations and new threats emerging

Like what's going on with the Vex right now is "new'

[slate vapor]

Oh yea the vex I forgot about them

The witness was pretty sick honestly

[slim elk]

And as said. Still actively hostile for no real reason.
Easily could have Pale Heart cleared easier of Remnant Witness forces if we worked together

[slate vapor]

Question, who created the vex?

[chrome fog]

But she’s been helping us regardless of how rude she’s been, just by getting us to trail after her.

Literally

The line before the one you mentioned

It was of mutual benefit

You fell for her tricks the intent is as plain as she is lazy with managing her Lucent Hive

[chrome fog]

We don’t know, best we have is an unreliable account from the Witness

Savathun literally ain’t up to no shit, she just putting the Lucent Hive in the Pale Heart for kicks and giggles

[slim elk]

That mutual benefit part is the trick
Why is she being so antagonistic when could get better results simplying working together?

[chrome fog]

Because we got it! That’s the point of the first Queens mission! “You’ve handled worst, go and take care of the Witness and those of my brood who want to fuck around and find out”

[slim elk]

She operates off much more Intel then we do. Ergo the whole Taken bit

So she's clearly leaving some details out

[chrome fog]

For shits and giggles and to get som boots in the new territory we’ve staked

There’s nothing rn going on

[slim elk]

And that is insanely doubtful lol

Just look who your talking about here

Savathuns always operating off her own agenda

The whole of the Witch Queen campaign was a gambit to get her memory restored.
Ergo why she spared the Player Guardian

[chrome fog]

We already came at her with the “What the fuck are you doing?” angle and she returned with “What the fuck are you doing, the most capable people in this Star system? I was able to figure out why the Taken were Light infused, surely you, the one who revealed that which even I didn’t know, would’ve seen that for yourselves.”

Anyways I sleep

This is as ridiculous as the Neomuna conspiracy theories

[still kiln]

So do y'all think if the final shape happened we'd still be conscious, like locked forever in a fantasy as our bodies would be frozen? Or do ya think our minds would just be froze too?

[empty fern]

Not sure, the witness kinda had some sense to offer us (and everyone else) a place in the final shape so you’d think our minds would be there in an illusion/dream, but idk if it lied to us in an attempt to stop us

Also, a place in the final shape is confusing, it shows you exactly what you want, but does it freeze your mind in that moment as well? If it did freeze thenIt would make sense poetically

[dim minnow]

the Witness specifically offered us a place outside of the Final Shape

[empty fern]

Oh outside?

Oops

[sharp osprey]

can someone give me a quick rundown on maya sundaresh lore?

[still kiln]

She's the lady you hear about after doing all the strand missions for the strand side arm who uses the veil to force her mind into Lakshmi 2, who for all we know there could be many of

That's heavily watered down by the way

[empty fern]

Maya, someone who was on the exodus that landed on Neptune, found the veil and documented its effects, (but then she also studied the vex and they simulated 227 exact copies of her) then she went insane after a bit then died (can read more on veil containment mission) and now she’s supposedly involved with the vex and the dark anomaly on Nessus

Oh yea she’s also the original laskhmi

The one that died in splicer

[dim minnow]

not original actually

[empty fern]

Fuck

[sharp osprey]

did lakshmi know she was maya?

[dim minnow]

original Lakshmi died to the Veil

[dim minnow]

I don't think so

or she at least knew she wasn't the original Maya

[still kiln]

They kinda say how she is and also isn't Maya

[empty fern]

Did a second maya become an exo? Or did the simulations take place after she became an exo

[still kiln]

I like to think of her as like a very very mini witness

[dim minnow]

Maya used the Veil to copy her mind and put it in Lakshmi's body

[empty fern]

Ah

[still kiln]

All exos have one reset, when lackshmi went dead, Maya and possibly like other things went into lackshmi, effectively making her 2

So a minimum, every exo is technically Name-1, as getting rid of the memories helps prevent them from going "fuck this isn't my body time to die"

[empty fern]

Neat

But yea

[empty fern]

That’s about a summary of maya

[still kiln]

For all we know there could be another lackshmi or even a few out there or Maya herself in weird mind form or however that works

[sharp osprey]

where are all the clones at?

[empty fern]

Dunno

[still kiln]

Honestly it was really just Osiris' speculating

But it's the best we got

[empty fern]

Scattered (I haven’t read the lore for this seasons)

[dim minnow]

the lore tabs for some of the season pass stuff indicate that Maya is likely involved right now

[still kiln]

Ooo enlighten me

[empty fern]

Also wonder what the fascination with music is

[dim minnow]

after she "killed herself" with the Veil, her mind ended up somewhere where she was working with unnamed associate

she laments how Chioma didn't come with her and that she kinda ruined their relationship

[still kiln]

Ya don't say

[dim minnow]

it seems like she's related to the Vex fuckery going on right now

[still kiln]

Almost like merging your mind with the veil to reach some weird obsessive perfection at the cost of everyone you know is a bad idea for relationships

[empty fern]

Clef units

[dim minnow]

she could be that thing we saw in the trailers

the thing with the hand

this thing

might be Maya

[still kiln]

Thank you for image

[empty fern]

Do we wanna agree she’s using the anomaly like (mentioned in frontiers video) ||fikrul using the anomaly on his staff||

[dim minnow]

or it could be this "acquaintance)

[dim minnow]

they're called echoes

[empty fern]

The anomalies?

[dim minnow]

and yes probably

[empty fern]

Neat

[dim minnow]

yes, that is what they are called officially

seems like the episode will all be related to the echoes

[empty fern]

Damn you failsafe!! And crow!!

Also

Dovah

[still kiln]

Kin?

[dim minnow]

?

[empty fern]

Snailure (now I gotta type something)

[empty fern]

Opinion on the detail that failsafe can’t quite perceive tormentors? In the breach activity

[dim minnow]

huh?

[empty fern]

It’s like 2 of her lines when tormentor boss spawns (instead of the damn coral minds)

[dim minnow]

wasn't paying attention

or I haven't gotten it yet

[empty fern]

Snailure

[dim minnow]

honestly I was too focused on getting the radiolite sambles

[empty fern]

(Same)

[dim minnow]

most of the playerbase is...

let's just say Bungie might as well make gathering the radiolite mandatory in the activity since a lto of the time they'll just skip it

typical neophytes

[remote sky]

And possibly putting collars on the vex (but we don't know that for sure yet)

[empty fern]

Ye

[rain maple]

Savathûn is literally the best character in destiny

[sharp osprey]

indeed, she is very well written

i don't know if she's the best character, but she's definitely up there

[rain maple]

Right!! That’s what I’m saying

[rain maple]

She is thooooo

[sharp osprey]

zavala

cayde

maybe even crow cuz of final shape

[rain maple]

Erm his bald

[rain maple]

Killed Cayde 😭

[rain maple]

He lost a 1v1

[sharp osprey]

honestly who my favorite character is switches pretty frequently, but most of the time its probably zavala

[sharp osprey]

no, that was uldren not crow

[rain maple]

Ohhhhh

Still cayde lost a 1v1

[sharp osprey]

it was like a 10 v 1, not counting the ads

savathun got her neck sliced by eris in no time flat lol

and savathun got killed by saint over and over again iirc

[rain maple]

But that wasn’t fair she was trying to talk to her like

[sharp osprey]

you could also make the argument that savathun meant for eris to kill her cuz she knew eris would weaken xivu with her power

[rain maple]

Well to be fair saint was grumpy she possessed Osiris

[rain maple]

She did tho that was her plan bc she knew if she didn’t they would’ve just killed Immaru or left her dead

[willow dagger]

Can someone catch me up on what’s going on now that the witness is dead? I can’t quite connect the dots! The witness is dead, but things are still going on in the Pale Heart? What’s up with the vex being extra vexy??

[sharp osprey]

right after the witness died, a bunch of star looking things were ejected out of the traveler portal at relativistic speeds. these are "echoes" of the witness, which are basically remnants of its memories and stuff iirc (i'm probably missing some detail there tho). One of these landed on Nessus and have transformed the vex into, well, we're trying to figure that out.

and as for the pale heart, those are probably just leftover forces of the witness, nothing too serious

[willow dagger]

Interesting

[sharp osprey]

i wonder if "Frontiers" isn't the name of the next expansion, but the name of the next saga, the Frontiers Saga

[sick yew]

Its probably neither

Its a placeholder name

[sharp osprey]

you right

[sick yew]

We can base some theories on that name it was probably chosen for a reason

But the why is up to interpretation

[deep pagoda]

When were the shadows of yor formed, in lore.

[sick yew]

Wrong universe bro

[sharp osprey]

i think the saint/osiris cutscene basically proves that we will be going beyond Sol sooner rather than later

[sick yew]

Thats the impression im getting aswell

[deep pagoda]

?

[sick yew]

Aint that mf Bloodborne lore

[sharp osprey]

and it seems like Heresy will probably be a leadup into Frontiers, perhaps we use the dreadnought to start the journey out of the system

[sick yew]

No wait

LMFAO

Mb gang

[sharp osprey]

[sick yew]

I confused what you said with the Shadows of Yharnam

[deep pagoda]

Brother

[sick yew]

Since Yor himself died in I believe the early to mid city age sometime after that I presume

[trim grotto]

something around that era yeah

hello what'd i miss

[deep pagoda]

Around when Andal become vanguard?

[sick yew]

uuuuh

[sick yew]

I confused the Shadows of Yor with the Shadows of Yharnam

[trim grotto]

that is meaningless to me so i have no input

[sharp osprey]

shadows of yornam

[deep pagoda]

Would you say the shadows were formed before d1? Or during d1

[sick yew]

Before

[deep pagoda]

Gotcha

[trim grotto]

Before, certainly

[deep pagoda]

Also I never got thorn in d1, do you guys know how we obtained it back then?

[sick yew]

Quest

Datto probably still has an old guide

[deep pagoda]

Didn’t start playing til taken king

[deep pagoda]

Got any story on it?

[sick yew]

No clue

[sharp osprey]

i dont think so, it was like the first exotic quest and it was just kill an ungodly amount of people in crucible and stuff like that

[trim grotto]

Not so far as I'm aware, so we could reasonably assume it was a Dredgen copy rather than the original - particularly given that Shin Malphur had claimed the original Thorn, as we learn by D2.

That said, it's also worth noting that some City researchers got their hands on the thing and studied it, leading to the whole Jana-14 debacle and the Necrotic Grips and Osteo Striga.

[willow dagger]

Mael ❤️ you came back

[trim grotto]

i've been treating my porch tiles and cooking and batching dinners and replacing the battery in my key fob and buying groceries and working
not in that order

[sharp osprey]

Mael give me your honest to traveler prediction(s) for Frontiers

[trim grotto]

Buddy I haven't even finished the FS post campaign nor week 1 of Echoes

I'm a bit behind
Been playing Grounded with my buddy Nick and Baldur's Gate 3 with my buddy Liam

[sharp osprey]

is grounded out of beta yet?

[trim grotto]

has been for a while

[sharp osprey]

or whatever microsoft calls it

[willow dagger]

Uldron/crow story?

[trim grotto]

it has excellent quality of life mechanics, it's quite satisfying to play

[sharp osprey]

i played it a little bit with my friends a year or two ago but we didn't get that far

[trim grotto]

eating din dins first

[sharp osprey]

blue man bad and then blue man good

[trim grotto]

well
what do you already know of Uldren and his life

[willow dagger]

I need the details! the poetic filled lore

[willow dagger]

He was a prince and Mara’s brother, that’s it!

[trim grotto]

fairy nuff

[willow dagger]

Can we vc?!

[trim grotto]

nay, for i am eating din dins

[willow dagger]

As a lover of food, I understand this

[sharp osprey]

eh, nevermind lol

i gotta say, as bad as D1 vanilla's plot (or lack thereof) was, the rumored original script seems a little overrated.

"traveler bad?????" is a really lame plot twist

it certainly wouldve been better than the garbage we actually got, but what we've gotten since with stuff like final shape is probably better than D1's original script ever could have been

[sick yew]

Imma be real its not too fair to bash D1s plot cause theres no way they could have possibly known it would evolve into a story spanning over 10 years and growing to such a size

[sharp osprey]

you mean the original script or the official script?

[sick yew]

I mean what we got

D1 vanillas campaign

It was a 2014 sci fi game

[sharp osprey]

i see where you're coming from

but it was just a really lame non-story lol

but its less offensive than lightfall probably

cuz lightfall could have been better you know

[sick yew]

I would still play lightfall a million times more than D1 Vanilla

[sharp osprey]

sure

[sick yew]

As much as it flopped there is no way theyre in even remotely similar leagues

[sharp osprey]

but lightfall is more aggravating than d1 vanilla cuz lightfall came out when destiny was a lot more established

[deep pagoda]

Oh shit I forgot about osteo an necro, do ya mind given me a lore run-down on these artifacts?

[sick yew]

Theres probably a byf video of those

Just incase homie got no time to write rn

[deep pagoda]

Fair enough lol

[sick yew]

In other news
I still find it remarkable how our view of the traveler as a being as been shifted completely through Micahs interpretations of those collectibles in the pale heart

[sharp osprey]

is that for the khvostov quest? i havent done that quest beyond getting the legendary version yet

[sick yew]

Yes

I myself always thought the traveler was this almost godlike all knowing being with a masterplan

But now its almost human?

[deep pagoda]

W h a t

[sharp osprey]

i should get that gun and do that quest

[sick yew]

Its got doubts, uncertainties, it is afraid

[sick yew]

In the pale heart there are a bunch of little traveler uh statues? Scattered throughout the map, you need those for the Khvostov quest but each of them is imprinted with emotions and memories
Micah-10 a Hunter of the Six Cayotes has a lets call it "gift" with which she can interpret these

She shares many of the travelers thoughts throughout its lifespan and they paint a much different picture of how the traveler is

[sharp osprey]

micah will definitely be the next speaker

has a guardian ever been a speaker before?

[sick yew]

I doubt we'll ever get a speaker again but yeah she would fill that role

[sick yew]

Dont get me wrong btw I dont mean that as in the traveler itself is a human but more that it thinks and feels emotions just like us

[sharp osprey]

but i agree, having not done that part of the quest yet, even still you can feel throughout tfs that the traveler is a lot more vulnerable and emotional than we thought

like the vision cutscene in the first mission

[sick yew]

Yeah

[sharp osprey]

its basically telling us its fears and that it needs us

[deep pagoda]

I wonder if it will tell us why it ran so much dooming so many races.

[sharp osprey]

it ran away cuz the witness wouldve enacted the final shape if it didnt

[sick yew]

Cause the Traveler stood no chance against the black fleet lol

We saw in the opening to LF that it cant really do shit to defend itself

[deep pagoda]

So why did it stay during the collapse?

[sick yew]

The funny laserbeam did nothing apart from slowly breaking apart one of the pyramids and also resurrecting an enemy at that time

[sick yew]

Savathun

[sharp osprey]

cuz savathun hid the veil on neptune

[deep pagoda]

And why did the witness not finalize back then ?

[sick yew]

Because it was tricked

Cause the Veil was hidden

[deep pagoda]

And that kept the traveler on earth?

[sharp osprey]

savathun hid the veil, which allowed the traveler one last miracle, creating the ghosts

[sick yew]

Its heavily implied that the Traveler really didnt have much more places to run aswell

It was essentially surrounded by the black fleet who set up a sort of bubble/ring far outside of Sol

[deep pagoda]

And how did she trick the witness? Just like, “oh yeah, travelers dead mb”

[sharp osprey]

she tricked the witness by hiding the veil

[sick yew]

Without the Veil the witness cant do the final shape

[sharp osprey]

and then lying about it and keeping its location secret

[deep pagoda]

And the witness just dipped far away?

[sharp osprey]

yeah

[sick yew]

They waited

Until the Traveler send out that light pulse after defeating Ghaul

[jagged badge]

You must force yourself to be cruel. Your presence is portent.```

This is about the Eliksni

Basically, the Traveler left because it knew its presence endangered them

[deep pagoda]

Why didn’t the witness stay and search for the Veil?

[deep pagoda]

Ah

[sick yew]

its not as easy as just walk from planet to planet and look hard enough

[sharp osprey]

why didnt the fellowship ride the eagles into mordor

[sick yew]

Savathun probably pulled some masterclass magic shit to keep it hidden

[deep pagoda]

Still, just deciding to go far far away because it vanished, and to leave the thing you have been chasing for so long

I just don’t get it

[sick yew]

The Witness doesnt exactly care about time

Its not like it will ever fail

[deep pagoda]

Wouldn’t it have just waited in sol then?

[sick yew]

The end to them was inevitable so a few hundred years more or less didnt make no difference

[sick yew]

Well it sortof did
They planetd nezzys pyramid

On the moon

They had no clue how far away the Veil was hidden

[deep pagoda]

Also how did it touch the traveler and find the veil in nightfall, instead of just doing that in the collapse

[deep pagoda]

Ah

[sick yew]

Thats a question I have no answer for

But the Witness wasnt physically present d uring the collapse keep that in mind

They just send in the gang™️

[sharp osprey]

shadow wizard money gang

[sick yew]

Rhulk, Nezzy and Savathun are indeed the shadow wizard money gang

Rhulk is money cause hes got swag

Nezzy shadow

And Savathun magic

Its all there

[sharp osprey]

or, you could swap out calus for savathun, and have it be a disciple exclusive club
shadow - rhulk
wizard - nezarec
money - calus

[sick yew]

Lmfao thats a good one too

[sharp osprey]

https://youtu.be/XvyT1ocbtn8?si=9xHV40GCmOprlIsa

[sick yew]

Love that animation

[fast tapir]

its even in order

[sick yew]

Fr

[fast tapir]

left to right

crazy

[sharp osprey]

and in order of when they became disciples

rhulk the first, nezarec the ???, and calus the last

is it sensible to infer that each individual pyramid ship belongs to one disciple per? meaning that theres easily hundreds, maybe thousands of disciples

[fast tapir]

well two ships entered the traveler in LF with the Witness

unless they are hidden in the Pale Heart

[sick yew]

Wait what

It was way more than 2 lol

[fast tapir]

whar

i seen two

or

maybe im blind or something

[sick yew]

Dont they like all fuse and some shit

[sharp osprey]

did calus have a pyramid?

[trim grotto]

it's hard to miss

it takes up the entire ahimsa park

[sick yew]

Nah hes got a flat ship

[sharp osprey]

oh shit

[sick yew]

Thats gigantic

[sharp osprey]

lol

i forgor

[sick yew]

The bigass thing that sit on Neomuna lol

[fast tapir]

his ship is cool

[sharp osprey]

its 3 am gimme a break

[fast tapir]

its also like

[sick yew]

Which im still very sad we never properly explored

[fast tapir]

really really big

[sick yew]

Yeah I personally expected the raid to take place there

[fast tapir]

its very cool that we could see it in the seraph cutscene too

[sick yew]

Mhm

[sharp osprey]

i wonder what it wouldve been like if lightfall was part of final shape

[sick yew]

It also flys directly beneath us in the opening LF mission

[sick yew]

Im very glad now that LF and FL are seperate

[sharp osprey]

ive seen people suggest that root was originally a dungeon that turned into a raid

[sick yew]

Final Shape is already packed with story there was no way they could have also fit the Veil plot in there

[sharp osprey]

yeah, and all the story stuff in the seasons wouldve had to be condensed into witch queen's seasons

and final shape wouldve been worse probably cuz of the dev crunch

[sick yew]

Lifghtfall was a necessary evil

[fast tapir]

does it seem bigger than the other ships or is it like a perspective thing or maybe because its long?

[sick yew]

It is way bigger than the other ships

Or rather longer

Perspective is a bit messy but iirc the Pyramid ships are all roughly the same size and Calus' ship is longer than one for sure I think almost two

[sharp osprey]

it seems like they change the pyramid ship sizes to fit different purposes, same with the traveler

which is actually a good thing i think

i mean it could just be perspectives but Rhulk's ship feels massive and a lot bigger than how pyramid ships look in space cutscenes

[sick yew]

With objects of such scale consistency is hard or can actually be a disadvantage for certain scenes so yeah I agree

[fresh zephyr]

I remember back in the final scene in Vanilla D2, you had that one Pyramid that was way, way bigger than the others. But that was from early on, and like you've all said they are really inconsistent on the size of various objects.

[sick yew]

As a person who lives and dies by the "style over substance" concept I really dont mind

As long as it looks cool

[sharp osprey]

were the dread ever explained beyond "yeah they worship the witness lol"

i know in one of the vidocs someone said something about how they were a result of the witness messing with the light

[trim grotto]

Yes
They were created by the Witness, from beaten species

[gentle geyser]

That wasn’t the explanation

[fast tapir]

do we have an idea how old the dread could be?

[gentle geyser]

Not very old

[fast tapir]

aw

[gentle geyser]

Considering only tormenters have existed before final shape

[fast tapir]

right

[sick yew]

Im pretty sure the Witness has never been a stranger to creating new species even before the Final Shape

But its gotten a lot easier for them obviously

I really wish Tormentors werent so annoying ingame

Cause theyre cool as shit

Especially their "voice"

[fast tapir]

the "feared" tormenters when i have a source of suspend:

when its a boss though..

im standing back lmao

[sick yew]

Yeah the non boss variants are simple enough

But boss ones

[fast tapir]

the only boss one im not afraid of is the one in the new episode activity

buddy cannot move because of prismatic warlock

[sick yew]

Cause its a seasonal activity lol

[fast tapir]

just gets bullied into a corner

[fast tapir]

true..

when do we get harder modes 😔

expert isnt enough

[sick yew]

Honestly even ingame theyre kinda nice cause of how they switch up the usual "shoot them in the head" kind of thing

[fast tapir]

yeah

[sick yew]

But they are just a very slight gigantic much too resistant to non precision damage

[fast tapir]

yeah but abilites destroy them

the nova bomb in my pocket

they stand no chance

[sick yew]

Thankfully

And their grab attack is just cool as hell

[fast tapir]

yeah

its scary when they glow red and chase you

flashbacks of trevor

[sick yew]

Their spawn in sound too

[fast tapir]

i wish they were explained more

[sick yew]

They aint?

[fast tapir]

or maybe there were and i didnt see anything past "a result of an unholy alliance between calus and the witness" lmao

or something along those lines

[fresh zephyr]

In the Pantheon TWAB

They explained that Nezarec was a clone of Rhulk, and that he was the first Tormentor, and all the others are copies of him.

But I dunno if they ever put that in-game anywhere

[sick yew]

Wait that shit is confirmed? I thought that was just a fan theory

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah

It was in the TWAB where they revealed each Pantheon boss and gave a 'profile' of them

[frozen silo]

Is the tower for guardians and such only and then the rest of the city is civilians?

[modern lodge]

Isn't his current form the clone part not nezarek himself

[frozen silo]

Just rewatching the final shape trailer and wondering where the little town at the start is

[jagged badge]

There are civilians in the Tower

Or perhaps they’re workers there

The Tower is generally supposed to be a hub for Guardians mainly though

[frozen silo]

Oh yeah sorry, I forgot about the eliksni and the others down by the drifter sorry

[frozen silo]

They should work on the old tower then

[frozen silo]

Ah alright. Thank you :)

[sick yew]

I mean they do

Also ngl working on the tower should probably be a guardians job

As we know from Zero Hour it aint exactly a safe place tbh

[gentle geyser]

I wouldn’t really use a destroyed run down version of the tower that is abandoned because of the full blown invasion of the red war as a fair example

Plus using guardians for everyday tasks is an absolute waste of potential

[sick yew]

Well yeah thats what we saw in Zero Hour

The still in shambles tower

[gentle geyser]

Yeah, the one that they proceeded to abandon

Like gee I wonder why nobody is in that one anymore

The purpose of a guardian should not be maintenance when regular people and robots can do that with probably more skill

[sick yew]

You forget guardians literally have magical powers

They can fly and are strong

[gentle geyser]

How does that apply to maintenance

[sick yew]

Im talking about rebuilding

[gentle geyser]

That still involves maintenance

[sick yew]

If you play Zero Hour you know the old tower is a very dangerous place

Lots of places you can fall to your death at

[gentle geyser]

Their powers wouldn’t be useful 90% of the time either

[sick yew]

They are functionally immortal

If debris blocks the path they can get it cleared much easier than any human could

[gentle geyser]

Just because they are immortal doesn’t mean they have the ability to be amazing mechanics and engineers

[sick yew]

In the first stage which is securing the structure and clearing all the broken stuff I dont see why a normal human should endanger themselves when Guardians exist

Later the proper rebuilding and stuff when its all safe thats where normal people take over

[gentle geyser]

Because they don’t have the skillset to do the work and its a waste of guardians when normal people can do it

[sick yew]

I think we are both talking in opposite directions rn lmfao

[gentle geyser]

You want the protectors of the last human civilization to be in a job they aren’t suited for away from their actual duty

[sick yew]

So you know before the last city was an actual city

The old Zavala cutscene showing sorta his life quite literally shows a Warlock holding a massive block with easy floating around to build the ground constructs for what would become the Wall of the Last City

Guardians aint just soldiers

Many of them are highly skilled engineers

Or scientists

[gentle geyser]

Just because they can do something doesn’t mean they should

[sick yew]

Weak argument

A guardians duty dictates the exact opposite
If there is a chance for good to be done in any form it should be done

[gentle geyser]

Yea, except what you want is to take away guardians to go do construction

And leave the people that know how to do that and have equipment for it jobless

[still bay]

how did shaxx know sur eido

[sick yew]

Again it ain't like guardians are purely shoot gun at everything that moves

As you said they are protectors of humanity

And protecting humanity includes securing the last city's defenses

[gentle geyser]

You really are yappin at this point for no reason

[sick yew]

My man you said this as a response

Anyway guardians shall work construction

[gentle geyser]

Wild how they didn’t

[sick yew]

I make the lore so it's canon now

(It's already canon see the above mentioned cutscene)

[sick yew]

Mara prob talked a lot about em

[blazing wasp]

He did physically meet her

And got shot to death

[sick yew]

Happens to the best of us

[blazing wasp]

He was shocked that it was a bow and not in fact a balista

They got to know each other more through that

How or why he's where he is and where that is I don't know.

[desert pebble]

ok so the winnower is actually an entity?

[blazing wasp]

Heavily hinted at

But how close they are to unveiling is unknown

Unveiling and the one oryx spoke to however acts similarly

Both in ideology and speech pattern

Making two mostly separate cases correspond

Leading me personally to believe that the basics of the winnowers ideology and their speech pattern, if existing, is correct in unveiling

[desert pebble]

unveiling is the lore tab from shadowkeep right?

[blazing wasp]

Beyond that, canonically speculative.

[blazing wasp]

Yes

[blazing wasp]

It's unironically a topic of debated legitimacy by several people ingame.

Including eido, mara, and ikora

[desert pebble]

it doesn't seem realistic for us to fight it

[blazing wasp]

It doesn't seem realistic for it to want to fight us

It believes it is right, so much so it believes its inevitable

A immutable fact of existence

So why bother intervening

[fresh zephyr]

I mean, you can't kill the foundational force of the universe. Without something probably world ending, anyway

[blazing wasp]

It's gonna happen anyway

[chrome fog]

If I were immortal and magic I’d spend my time doing engineering stuff and whatever without fear of truly dying

[gentle geyser]

But do you have to worry about multiple factions that want you dead?

[chrome fog]

Why? You’re in the Tower doing engineering shit

I’m weldin and sodderin and repairin and shit

Happy in my little workshop

[gentle geyser]

Literally anyone can do that

[chrome fog]

Yeah

Why not a Lightbearer

[gentle geyser]

But its kinda pointless for a guardian as its a waste of responsibility

[chrome fog]

I can test shit as a crash dummy

[blazing wasp]

You didn't choose to be revived

You were forced

[chrome fog]

And also handle more dangerous tasks with easy

[blazing wasp]

You had no choice in the matter, you deserve to make your own choice from there on

[chrome fog]

Apply more protective shields upon myself

[blazing wasp]

In fact, the traveler never discouraged doing what you want, it can't

The traveler is extremely pro "free will"

[fresh zephyr]

Canonically, Guardians don't just do combat stuff all the time. Some of them rarely go into the field at all and only when something major happens

[gentle geyser]

So using this logic you view becoming a wielder for the same group to be better

[fresh zephyr]

So if they want a normal job, that's well within their purview.

[gentle geyser]

Yall batshit insane some days I swear

[blazing wasp]

No, I dont

[chrome fog]

Also kinda counterintuitive for the Traveler to advocate for multifacetedness of life and then restrict someone to only one task

[blazing wasp]

I'm just saying that you don't get to force someone to exist and demand they put down their life to fight a war for you until you die or its won

[chrome fog]

It’s kinda of a waste for me to be an artist when I can work towards an engineering degree but I wanna do art regardless

[blazing wasp]

Hell the traveler doesn't force you either

It only made ghosts that brought you back to life

It never "demanded" anything

It hasn't demanded anything

It cant

[chrome fog]

I’m sure she’d be happy to see the new NLS engine a Lightbearer engineer made

[blazing wasp]

The traveler is literally unable to demand, nor does it want to

[chrome fog]

Also nice I found the backstory for my Titan, I’ve just been putting him on back burner and saying he’s just a cuddly Titan but Engineer Titan fits with my Jock Warlock and Nerd Researcher Hunter

[desert pebble]

wait come to think of it, unveiling talks about a game of chess, so can we scale the witness to a specific pawn that was originally designed for the game?

[blazing wasp]

Maybe, we don't know

We know extremely little about how much of unveiling is legitimate

[desert pebble]

well the raid dialogue kinda partially confirms it no?

[blazing wasp]

It doesn't confirm unveiling

[chrome fog]

Funnily enough there’s another writing which is done in the Witness/Unveiling’s style which refers to the First Knife as either being wielded by the Flowers or by itself instead of just the Winnower

I think it’s Inspiral

[blazing wasp]

But heavily hints at the existence of the winnower

[fresh zephyr]

It tells us that the Witness truly believes what it says, but not that it's correct in it's beliefs.

[chrome fog]

Need to check

[chrome fog]

I see it as more the Witness being an edgy fuck

[blazing wasp]

And the winnower in unveiling and presumably winnower in books of sorrow act very similar

In ideology and speech

[chrome fog]

You mean the Voice in the Deep/the Deep?

[blazing wasp]

Two, somewhat unrelated and different accounts

[desert pebble]

wait the winnower is in the books of sorrow?

[blazing wasp]

Yes, could still be the witness

[chrome fog]

It is

That’s the Witness

[blazing wasp]

We got proof of that?

Damn

[fresh zephyr]

Personally, given the Traveler visions and what the Traveler says about itself in them, as well as the cosmological timeline involving it, Unveiling and the Witness' identification of the Traveler with the Gardener is most likely wrong.

[desert pebble]

idek where the worm gods are in the darkness power scale

[calm granite]

Yh unveiling is from the witness, so it evoking the winnower again just means that it's consistent in its wording

[blazing wasp]

Power scaling is jank in d2

[calm granite]

Ig it means it wasnt downright lies, but it doesnt mean it's more than metaphors, as thought before

[desert pebble]

just in the hiearchy i mean

but so "knives" are basically the winnower's pawns a bit how the witness had disciples?

[blazing wasp]

We don't really know, we just know that the witness calls itself the first knife

[desert pebble]

first could mean a few things though

no matter the meaning it implies there's others, but idk if it's first as in of most importance, or first as in the first that was created

[chrome fog]

Where’s the dang First Knife entry about flowers or itself wielding itself

[fresh zephyr]

Inspiral?

Should be in the RoN lorebooks

Last book I think

[desert pebble]

what's the flower part about?

the flower game?

[chrome fog]

It’s close but there was another entry paired with the Winnower page of the Inspiral book, because that book stops short at defining the First Knife. The entry talks of why it should exist, but not the “who” of who wields it

[chrome fog]

Yes, within the Unveiling metaphor, Flowers are the individual beings of existence

[fresh zephyr]

'They are domesticated things, made in a form. As soon as something is called a garden, it is shaped. The plants require the hand of a gardener, for they have become weak and dependent on tender care. They require the hand of a winnower, to cut away the dross, for they are too incapable to do it themselves. In absence of a hand, either the flowers themselves must rise up to wield the knife, or the garden will resolve to meaningless wilderness.'

[desert pebble]

what i don't understand is how in the first knife lore book, the gardener preaches something akin to the sword logiic

[blazing wasp]

Sounds like it's preaching bomb logic to me

Rewarding complexity

[desert pebble]

always forcing the universe to be in movement and not in a still

which is why I don't get why the witness instilled in the 3 sisters the sword logic which is a contrary to the idea of the final shape

[blazing wasp]

The witness doesn't want the final shape the "winnower" wants in unveiling

[chrome fog]

And the Witness is not an infallible being, for it to contradict itself and change its mind is wholly in its capabilities

The Winnower figure from its writings may very well be the kind of god it wished it had instead of the Traveler, and continued to delude itself upon that fallacy of the Winnower’s existence when at its final stand

[desert pebble]

Well from what I understand the witness wants a childish copy of the winnower's final shape

[chrome fog]

Yea, assuming the Winnower is even real

One explanation is that it’s revealing it’s true desires, the one which it veiled behind the desires of the Winnower figure it wanted to present itself as

Another is that there is a Winnower maybe

But it’s unlikely

[fresh zephyr]

I wouldn't say it's unlikely.

We know there is something out there that split the original entity the Traveler and the Veil composed

[desert pebble]

i hope it'll happen ngl because this has a lot of potential to be made into a giant scale story

[chrome fog]

I’d still say it’s unlikely as we still only have the Witness as evidence for the Winnower’s existence; though Maya’s supposed return may hint at this possibility

I’m of the mind that if the Winnower is real, it was from the Witness researching and communing with the Veil, desiring a god who was less like the Traveler/Gardener and held values closer to what it believed in, and now this new infantile entity is lurking within the universe

Like the Witness pulled a Cosmic Cube and made it so that there is a Winnower, but because there’s no actual form for it to take nor power truly associated with it, it’s been trying to find a way to realize itself in real space

Maybe explaining Maya’s experiments for the Veil Containment Logs

[fresh zephyr]

There are more hints of it's existence than just the Witness. The Sword Logic is an actual force and not just something that the Witness cooked up, and something has to make it work, since it's not something inherent to 'Darkness' in it's purest form that we can see.

[chrome fog]

The Sword Logic is still a philosophy, just supplemented by the Worms’ ability to process ontological death

Without the Worms it’s just “Might makes Right”

[fresh zephyr]

Even without a Worm, you still gain strength from killing things and can carve out a spot in the Ascendant Realm.

It's not hard linked to them

[chrome fog]

No you don’t

Throneworlds have been an explicit Hive thing connected to their ability to process death via their worms

The only exceptions of non-Hive having a Throneworld is the Mind Bender through strapping a worm onto itself and then taking the death of Cayde to build it, and Mara wishing for her Throneworld via Riven

[fresh zephyr]

Hiraks didn't use a Worm.

[chrome fog]

Even when we killed Oryx in the Dreadnaught, we were unable to process the Ascendent Energy we had accrued by killing the entirety of the Taken King’s Court, Mara had taken it for her own use

[fresh zephyr]

That's not what happened there. It's not that we couldn't take his power. It's that we chose not to. Which is what Toland threw a fit about.

And when we left his throne vacant, then Mara stepped in and stole it. And she was able to take it without a Worm, as well.

Sword Logic is a real power. Even the Witness acknowledges that it's a thing, even if he sees it as 'childish'.

[chrome fog]

But it’s not an active ability we even have outside of Oryx’s Throneworld? Countless warlords and other Lightbearers would have had their own Throneworlds by now and yet they don’t

[fresh zephyr]

Because it seemingly requires using Darkness, and doing it intentionally. It's not something that can be done by accident or with Light.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/by-thy-tongue-be-damned

That's Hiraks' lore page

And there's also an entry on the Eremite that relates to this as well

'Recall that it was only with Hive magic that the Scorned Baron Hiraks—the Mindbender, as he wished to be styled—created a throne through Cayde-6's murder. So, too, did Crota affect his own throne in the same way.'

Basically, Hive Magic functions independently of a Worm. Even Eris was using it for years well before Season of the Witch.

[chrome fog]

But again, it cannot be harnessed fully without a Hive Worm, as demonstrated in Witch with our staves holding crystallized Hive Worms and also Ahsa acting as surrogate worm for Eris. There are Hive magics that do not necessitate the use of a Worm but regardless of that a vast majority of their capabilities come with the requisite of a Hive Worm. Even to the Mindbender’s Throneworld we know he was trying to experiment with his lover’s brood, so it may have been as simple as holding a worm in a bag on his person.

Even the Vex realized that worship of the dying worms around them as they invaded Oryx’s Throneworld yielded Ascendent energy

[remote sky]

Whats the significance of these weird orb trees?

[ember storm]

you’d have to be more specific

[remote sky]

Silver wings I think they're called

Please do ping when you respond

[ember storm]

no

anyway trees of silver wings are basically just the prime example of the traveler’s purest form of giving life

on their own they’re not hugely importantly and don’t really do anything but their locations and surroundings are what make it important

[remote sky]

Lucky I check my phone often

[remote sky]

So what about the sapling in the blooming deep

[stark fjord]

Did savathun revert to a proto hive after she lost her worm

[remote sky]

I'm assuming that's what luzaku was called there to defend

[ember storm]

No

Having a worm isn’t specifically what made them hive

They took on specific transformations from the worm gods themselves

once the original krill transformed that was it

no more existed or ever will

their biology is just intrinsically corrupted and changed now

[ember storm]

Isn’t that explained in the campaign itself

You’re looking for light fissures and that was the only one not corrupted by the witness

[remote sky]

idk I'm kinda stupid

[simple zealot]

why the traveler leak out the aura

[gentle geyser]

Wounded from the witness, we don’t know what it means or what it will result in

The Aurora is of light and dark, its leaking out and so far we don’t know how bad of a situation this is

[slim elk]

Technically speaking the whole of the Pale Heart playable space might be solidified Darkness

It's all stuff pulled from memories, which is the Darkness domain

All the light in the Traveler gave it form and manifested in the terrain

That's a lot of foreign material

[analog torrent]

Does anyone have a list of the contents of grimoire 6? I heard it doesn’t have new lore

Ghost stories has gotta be in there

Definitely some den-mother loretabs because there’s art of Micah in there

[quiet herald]

Can someone explain why my ghost at the end of the calus fight went up to the veil?

[gentle geyser]

Witness possession

[quiet herald]

Ohhh that makes sense

Then the witness slices open the traveler? What did that do

[empty fern]

Opened a portal into the travelers mind

[quiet herald]

Oh that’s cool thanks

I just started playing a month ago and the games lore is pretty good

[split viper]

I love how the 6 in the name cayde-6 could also represent the fact that there were 6 hunter vanguards

With the 7th being 🐦‍⬛

(Crow)

[ember storm]

I don’t really think that’s what it’s for

[split viper]

Yea ikik

The 6 in cayde is how many times he was rebooted

[split viper]

But I’m also throwing it out there as a theory that this could be a fun lil Easter egg

[chrome fog]

It's coincidental

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/i-think-not-coincidence-coincidence-i-think-not-i-dont-think-so-gif-22491031

[drowsy sand]

Can someone explain to me how crow fits into the timeline? I recently picked the game back up after like 5 years so I need a lore refresher

[jagged badge]

Very shortly after we killed Uldren Sov, a Ghost who would be called Glint resurrected him. He tried to go back to the Tower but due to his face he was attacked, very brutally, so had to leave. At some point he ends up in servitude to Spider, who placed bombs in Glint’s shell to ensure Crow’s loyalty. It was Spider who named him too iirc, as he enjoyed the irony of naming someone who used to be Uldren after one of his nicknames

We encounter Crow during Season of the Hunt. At first we are apprehensive but as we hunt Wrathborn together we learn that Crow isn’t Uldren, and we develop a bond. After we kill Xivu Arath’s High Celebrant together, fulfilling a deal with Spider, he promises us a reward. Anything from his lair. We choose Crow, much to Spider’s anger. But a deal’s a deal, and Crow is freed

[drowsy sand]

Ohhhhhh

[jagged badge]

After this, Crow works for the Vanguard, though he wears a mask to obscure his identity. I believe only us and Osiris knew who he was at this point. Although Zavala learns too at the end of Season of the Chosen, when Crow takes an attack meant to kill Zavala and his mask is knocked off or broken or whatever

[trim grotto]

Fun fact
Spider found Crow drifting in open space dying over and over

[jagged badge]

Oh shit really?

[trim grotto]

Blue boy turned even blue-er

[drowsy sand]

No wonder he’s so emo

[jagged badge]

He had a pretty shit life yeah

[fast tapir]

how did this even happen..?

[chrome fog]

Like many players, a couple Guardians saw Crow, only saw Uldren’s face, and fucked him over for that

[fast tapir]

[trim grotto]

The Lightbearer slouched, and his gold eyes averted to the floor at the memory. "Long enough to know what eternity feels like. Long enough to know I'd never escape without…" he looked up to Spider, to the glow of those Ether-infused eyes. "Without help."

"That's me," Spider said eagerly, "very helpful. Very helpful indeed."```

[safe galleon]

is luzaku's manner of speaking (not using personal pronouns) something unique to her, or is it a general feature of hive 'dialect'? or is it a language barrier kind of thing?

[ember storm]

pretty sure this is implying spider left traps in order to set it up and make crow feel indebted

[coral phoenix]

What actually happened to spider I forgot

[dim minnow]

he resides in the Eliksni Quarter of the Last City now

[hearty dagger]

We smuggled him off the shore and now he's assumedly running a casino in the Eliksni Quarter.

[coral phoenix]

Ty

[hearty dagger]

I don't think he's actually joined House Light though.

[dim minnow]

he's just taking advantage of our willingness to let him stay here

he knows Mara wants his head

[hearty dagger]

As long as he doesn't cause any problems he's fine. The worst thing he's done so far is try and rig a gambling machine.

[raw hazel]

I still say hand him over

[dim minnow]

he'll probably help us out in Revenant

since the inkblot cutscene after Excision shows him and Mithrax watching what appears to be Eramis working with Fikrul

[hearty dagger]

Yea, Spider has an extensive intel network that we lose if we hand him over to Mara

[raw hazel]

I’m pretty sure that was Variks

[dim minnow]

I'm still convinced that the main reason why Eramis hasn;t left Sol yet is because we are using her fueling depot as a Cricible map

[hearty dagger]

I don't think that Eramis is working with Fikrul, I think that it's just the 2 potentially highest threat Eliksni in the system.

[raw hazel]

Yeah it’s Variks

[dim minnow]

oh shit it was Variks

[raw hazel]

It would be nice if he showed up

[dim minnow]

forgot it was him

[modern lodge]

Hasn't Eramis fucked off from sol

[hearty dagger]

She was leaving to try and be with her Wife. She may return due to the Witness's defeat.

[jagged badge]

Not yet it seems

[dim minnow]

she's trying to leave Sol, but one of the Lost Ghost quests indicates she's having difficulty in doing so

[trim grotto]

Did she get lost

[dim minnow]

no, she has a map

it's probably just a resource issue

seeing as how she was trying to obtain a Prime servitor from House Dusk

[bright zephyr]

What do you guys think of my name on destiny "Certified Vex 0ffender"

[dim minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/whothefuckstartsaconversation-gif-22983824

[jagged badge]

I think it doesn’t belong in this channel

[dim minnow]

I mean, I found it funny before, but the joke just seems beat to death to me

but yeah, not the channel to ask

[jagged badge]

Yeah I’ve heard it a billion times too

I’m pretty much over most of those sorts of Destiny usernames tbh

[trim grotto]

Unoriginal, kinda weird in the first place, and in the wrong place.

[hearty dagger]

You know, there is one lore point that I refuse to acknowledge and that's the fact that Savathun did not expect us to beat Quria during Splicer. Like how would Savathun of all people not expect us to thwart an outright attack on the last city?

[chrome fog]

Delirium from her worm almost killing her maybe

[safe galleon]

so if some ghosts have willingly chosen the hive as guardians in the past, why haven't we seen any eliksni or cabal guardians? i know there's history, but at this point isn't there more precedent for them to put aside their preconceptions of the latter over the former?

[gentle geyser]

Traveler gave the greenlight

[safe galleon]

is that a thing? i thought the whole point was that ghosts are free to act on their own best judgment in the end. the concept of the 'spark' ghosts feel is brought up sometimes but not in a sense of 'they are forced to follow it rigidly'

[static bluff]

the reason that was given to cayde when he asked why the hive is wielding the light is the traveler chose their species in the past

[hearty dagger]

But it happens before Lost.

[static bluff]

that said there could be eliksni lightbearers if we're basing just on that but I'm not aware of any other facts like the traveler specifically "requesting" hive lightbearers, just wanted to mention that

[hearty dagger]

But the Eliksni were also chosen in the past.

[safe galleon]

i mean sure but didn't it choose the eliksni too, though? or at least it held close proximity to them for some seemingly pretty significant period of time

[hearty dagger]

It's possible that the Ghosts had yet to consider Eliksni when looking for someone to rez.

[fresh zephyr]

Ghosts are ultimately fragments of the Traveler, both physically and mentally, and the Traveler still retains some degree of control of them even now, such as when it detonated a Ghost in Rhulk's face as he was trying to claim the Light from it.

So it's possible that when a Ghost finds their Guardian, it's effectively the Traveler saying 'This is the one, res them'.

[slim elk]

She probably did expect it, just not that early.

[safe galleon]

i don't think it's that rigid, is the thing. i'm like 90% sure we have cases of ghosts rezzing people who they don't feel a particular 'spark' with. i thought shin was one such case but iirc the ghost says something to the effect of shin having a 'faint spark' which i guess is something

[slim elk]

She did seem to be planning to have a puppet leader installed in the City.. thus indirectly controlling the Guardians

The seasonal dialogue had her wanting to capture Quria for intel

[hearty dagger]

It makes sense that Savathun would expect Quria to have been killed by the events of Splicer, she was planning to try and become a Lightbearer after all. She wouldn't, and didn't want, to control the Taken, so having Quria killed before that so that Xivu Arath didn't get control of Quria.

[fresh zephyr]

When Savathun talks about that, she admits she underestimated us.

[slim elk]

Yeah, I just think it happened earlier then she expected.
She probably wanted the coup effort to happen first, then install Saint as leader of the Vanguard

[safe galleon]

by all rationale the eliksni at the very least should also be at least eligible to be chosen as lightbearers, if the hive were. i'd be surprised if we just never got even a single case. but it's a little weird it hasn't happened yet

[slim elk]

Real easy to manipulate Saint when shes disguised as Osrisis

[safe galleon]

its true that old man yaoi is a powerful and arcane force prone to be turned against its wielders

[slim elk]

And if that happened, she would have a way to throw the player guardians at targets of her choosing

[fresh zephyr]

Plus, it's heavily implied that Savathun had multiple different plans, and it was only after we killed Quria and thwarted what she was attempting with the Light that she ended up running to Mara to get her to remove the Worm and then going begging to the Traveler when she was dying.

It was basically a last resort after we fucked up what she was originally doing

[hearty dagger]

She could have had us exorcise her worm without us realizing what we're doing.

[slim elk]

A xanatos gambit, where she got a benefit either way

Of course, some benefits are better

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah

[slim elk]

Shes pulling similar right now with letting us keep Immaru hostage

[fresh zephyr]

Though, I think her original plan would've seen her keeping the Worm. Her ultimate goal is that she wants both.

Light and Darkness

[slim elk]

Dont need the worm to use darkness. We proven that much

[fresh zephyr]

We don't need it

But humans are apparently special.

[hearty dagger]

I feel like becoming a Lightbearer was always her plan, she never liked the Deep before and her plans extended beyond that, which would have had to be put in place before Lost.

She wanted the Light Ghual inadvertently showed her that capturing it wasn't going to work, so she had to gamble.

[slim elk]

It was a risk she deemed acceptable.
Her dying words are thinking her plan failed...

[fresh zephyr]

Savathun says as much in one of her monologues at the Altars of Reflection. Basically, outside of humans, other races can only wield one or the other, and in the case of Darkness they need a catalyst. Hive needed the Worms, the Fallen needed the Splinters etc.

But humans are unique in that Darkness is apparently an innate part of them.

Which is why Guardians can use it without a catalyst.

[hearty dagger]

Oh yea, I was wondering, what about Ada-1 prevents DER? She's assumedly been around since roughly the collapse and has never needed a reset.

[fresh zephyr]

She wanted the Light, but we know she wants both. Her whole shtick in Arrivals was about finding a 'third way' between Light and Darkness, and it's heavily implied in the quest dialogue in TFS that she was in the Pale Heart for Prismatic

[slim elk]

Prismatic

Plus I wont put it past Savathun to try and pick up where the Witness left off..
That is the ultimate power in the verse.. a lot of entities are going to try and claim it

[chrome fog]

Splicer was when she was beginning to feel the consequences of her deception hiding as Osiris. One of the entries for the season’s lorebook is her feeling her worm begin to gnaw and chew at her insides. Lost follows up right after when we realize she was hiding as Osiris and she barters to return his body if we get rid of her worm

[chrome fog]

Well she was a child when she was exo’d

So that helps a bit, having a majority of her life spent in an Exo body

[fresh zephyr]

She was also made using a different process than normal Exo, apparently.

[hearty dagger]

But wasn't Micah-10 a child when she was Exoed?

[chrome fog]

It was, the whole tithe structure was in recognition of their worms’ appetite eventually outpacing the tithe they could procure on their own

[fresh zephyr]

Micah was 17

[chrome fog]

Is that from the new journals and dialogue?

[slim elk]

Theres also some unexplained modifcations from the Black Armory in Ada

[fresh zephyr]

Lemme find it

https://www.light.gg/db/items/2821677368/embraced-identity/

That lore tab

[chrome fog]

Neat

[fresh zephyr]

'Age: 17, Gender: F, Height: 167 cm, Weight: 54 kg, Class: A6 (Resident) '

[hearty dagger]

I was kinda under the assumption that the Black Armory being really good a tech being responsible for Ada-1 not suffering from DER.

[chrome fog]

It would have been, as being a proprietary frame and being custom made would’ve meant that they would be more able to match the proportions to Ada’s regular ones

[slim elk]

Might be similar to how Elsie hasnt suffered DER either

[hearty dagger]

Also I heard that It's implied that Micah was AMAB.

[slim elk]

Bit of spoilers..
||Shes Caydes inspiration for Ace||

[chrome fog]

I think there’s something specifically pointing that out as to why Elsie hasn’t technically undergone DER, any resets she may have had were due to dying

[chrome fog]

You should’ve pointed towards the journals of Micah Abrams from Europa

[fresh zephyr]

Not all Exos suffer DER as long as they have at least one initial wipe, anyways.

It's only when you keep your memories during the process that you really get fucked up

[chrome fog]

Which was what we first used as our basis for Micah-10 being AMAB; the linked sniper rifle entry further confirms it

[fresh zephyr]

Since you remember what you were before in comparison to what you are now, and that mismatch causes your mind to slowly breakdown.

[slim elk]

Neatly explains why Guardians dont typically suffer it.
They dont have any memories beyond being in the Exo body

[fresh zephyr]

Pretty much

It's also why you have Exos like Lakshmi running around who've basically been here since the Dark Ages without needing a wipe.

Actually....I wonder who the oldest recorded Exo is besides Ada, Lakshmi, and Elsie.

[hearty dagger]

I haven't read a whole lot of Europa lore, but what possesed the normally selfish and self centered Clovis to sacrifice himself to save the other Exos?

[fresh zephyr]

You mean Banshee?

[hearty dagger]

Yea.

[fresh zephyr]

It's basically a nature vs nurture thing

Banshee is who Clovis was at his core, stripped of his memory and experiences

He wasn't born evil

He was made that way by his own experiences and choices over time.

[slim elk]

Late stage Clovis was also being effected by the Vex messing with his bloodstream.

Combined with delusions of becoming a God through the Exo project thanks to the statue he found

[fresh zephyr]

Well

We know he already had all the delusions of godhood well before he found the statue

[slim elk]

Yeah, those delusions became a lot more valid after finding that thing though

[fresh zephyr]

True

[hearty dagger]

He would have had to make the Warmind project before he made the Exomind project, right?

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah

He talks about Rasputin while he was working on the Exos

In the BL CE lore

It was one Braytech's earlier projects

[hearty dagger]

So Abhorrent Imperative already existed before he encountered the Veiled statue.

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah

[hearty dagger]

Maybe the concept that what he replaced the traveler with being him didn't exist until he encountered the Veiled Statue.

[slim elk]

And now that AI of him is still down in Europa..

[fresh zephyr]

Pretty sure that was always the plan, because he'd been working toward making something like Exos for a long time. Him becoming some sort of uploaded AI God had been a long term goal since he wanted to be immortal.

[hearty dagger]

I really want a season where Ada-1 finds out about the Mars relic and realizes that she can use it to revive the Black Armory.

[fresh zephyr]

Could be interesting

She studies it and learns to mimic it's abilities or something

We know the Tower is already messing around with Pyramid tech, like splicing it into Sparrows, so it's possible

[slim elk]

Lot of opportunities now with the Witness dead

Most immediate is however the Vex are getting enslaved

We replicate that.. can neutralize the Vex as a threat

[hearty dagger]

It's also interesting, because if I remember correctly, the Black Armory was founded to fight against the Black Fleet.

[slim elk]

More of a "just in case" scenario

[hearty dagger]

I feel like the reason as to why the Vex are being compelled at such a massive scale is probably due to the Echo.

I find the fact that the Choral Vex are using the Decendant frames as their normal forces quite interesting.

[slim elk]

Descendant?
Though the gold-whitish was the Precursor

[fresh zephyr]

Basically Ada's mother had friends in 'high places' who told her about the anomaly Rasputin and others had detected approaching Sol and she put together the BA as precaution in case it turned out to not be friendly.

[hearty dagger]

before hand, If I'm not mistaken, the Descendant frames only really appeared when the vex we're simulating their future.

[indigo ermine]

is there a good lore video (or anything else) that covers all the content u can no longer play? i’d like to get some friends into the game, but it’s hard when half of the dlcs are gone and all the stories are gone too, so i’d have to explain a lot of stuff and characters to them

[fresh zephyr]

Byf has a loooong video about the franchise as a whole

[hearty dagger]

It's a very good video though.

[fresh zephyr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzBmOeYmN_M

And yeah, what's going on with the Vex is definitely apart of the Echo. I'm guessing Maya found it first on Nessus and is using it.

[hearty dagger]

Oh, yea, just checked, yea the Descendants are the more Black and brown vex with disc heads.

[slim elk]

Yeah, thought so

Rare to see them in the wild. Does give a hint the Vex enslaving is expanding through the timeline

[hearty dagger]

Yea, the precursors are only seen in the context of the Vex simulating their past. Or being in the past in general.

I wonder what sparked the frame change though.

[fresh zephyr]

Hell, might be how Maya was able to learn how to use it so quickly. She acquired the Echo, then jumped to a different timeline to experiment with it, then jumped back to ours

[slim elk]

The enigma signal activity has a bit where the Vex seem to be studying a lot of Golden Age material.. lot of random chairs, paintings, and other random stuff in pods

Havent been able to push too far in because of the difficulty.. but I saw that

[fresh zephyr]

Interesting

[hearty dagger]

I'm also just kinda confused, because the name itself seems to imply that "Descendant" Vex should be what comes next, but the wording seems to indicate that they came first, with implications being that they're very old.

[indigo ermine]

thanks, it’s helpful but i was hoping for something a bit easier for a new player, i’m crazy into destiny but even i wouldn’t watch a 10hr lore video

[hearty dagger]

It's set up so that you can pick it up and put it down.

[fresh zephyr]

There may be shorter summaries around on Youtube, that one is just the more prominent that covers the most ground

[hearty dagger]

Technically Byf summarizes everything in 1 minute.

The 10 hour video is like, a summary of literally everything that has happened in Destiny.

[fresh zephyr]

And from my understanding, the reason the Descendant Vex look older is because it's meant to represent a state where they changed their form, and then basically stayed the same for a loooooong time. Thus the rust and moss.

[indigo ermine]

ohhhh gotcha, thanks then!

[hearty dagger]

there's no rust and moss on Descendant frames, that's the Sol Divisive.

[fresh zephyr]

https://www.destinypedia.com/Descendants

Hell, if you use the 'Descendant Vex' shader

It makes you look rusty

You were right about the moss though

Just rust

[hearty dagger]

Yea, it has chapters and title screens for each chapter that you can pause on and come back to later.

Why were the vex so relatively passive during the Golden Age?

Unless I'm missing some things, the only known Vex attack was kinda provoked on Europa.

[fresh zephyr]

They don't do well with Paracausality, and the Traveler was active back then, basically traveling all over Sol.

And it has the ability to mess them up pretty badly, apparently, since they tried to consume the whole system during the Collapse when the Traveler was occupied, only to get messed up when they got caught up in whatever the Traveler did to the Witness when it sacrificed itself.

They converted Mercury in a matter of days, and then whatever the Traveler did basically caused them to go dormant there until Osiris came and started mucking around with things

[hearty dagger]

What was the deal with Panoptes, was it able to Simulate Paracausality to some degree?

[slim elk]

Using Osrisis ghost? Yep

[fresh zephyr]

It might've been able to eventually if it had been left to it's own devices long enough

To be honest, that whole thing is kind of a plot hole like most of CoO

[slim elk]

Probably why Bungie hasnt had Mercury return even with the Witness dead

[fresh zephyr]

Most likely

It's just a mess

[hearty dagger]

The Infinite Forest could have been, and still could be, a fun way to have a new version of the Coil though.

[fresh zephyr]

Because they made the whole thing about how 'Oh, the Infinite Forest is so powerful because it's basically a whole planet turned into a computer!'

[slim elk]

Sometimes Bungie writes a hole they cant get rid of, and thus try to bury it

[fresh zephyr]

When in the lore, the Vex have turned whole galaxies full of planets into computers

Pretty much

[slim elk]

(See Lightfall and the implications of Shin)

[hearty dagger]

Also the thing I find weird is that Mercury had no visible effects on it from the chunks of it that the Almighty blasted into the Sun.

[fresh zephyr]

You mean the patrol zone?

[hearty dagger]

Didn't the planetary Icon also not have any signs of that?

[hearty dagger]

Oh, I just haven't seen Mercury in ages.

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah, pretty sure the reason the patrol zone didn't have any signs of it was just because it was on the part of the planet that hadn't been messed up.

[hearty dagger]

It's been 4 to 5 years at this point

[fresh zephyr]

Or maybe it did

I can't remember

I rarely went to Mercury

[hearty dagger]

I mean, it was basically only a single patrol zone that none of the seasons ever did anything with. Even Arrivals didn't use Mercury AFAIK.

[slim elk]

Arrivals had the pyramid and random patrol stuff... but yeah

The big stuff was on Io

[fresh zephyr]

Dawn did, I think.

Since we went there for it's activities

And for Saint

[hearty dagger]

Right, the Sundial.

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah

CoO is still the single worst DLC in Destiny history in terms of story IMO.

Like...all the retcons they did really pissed me off

[hearty dagger]

Yea, they never did anything with it either.

[languid crater]

On the wiki it says the guardian is a member of the hidden is this true

[fresh zephyr]

We worked with the Hidden in Witch Queen so sort of?

[languid crater]

But we aren't like a real member

[hearty dagger]

I think we were more like a temporary contractor.

[slim elk]

We are the "if you need something absolutely dead, send this guy" deal

[languid crater]

Wild

[slim elk]

Even Savathun shut up mid gloating when we reminded her we were in the room.

[fresh zephyr]

^

That still cracks me up

Like Sav wasn't even afraid of Ikora

But the second we remind her we're there

[languid crater]

Did we actually kill riven

[fresh zephyr]

She's like 'Fuck'

[hearty dagger]

Yes.

[languid crater]

Why did we do thag

That

[hearty dagger]

Ahamkara are just so powerful that they can trancend death.

[fresh zephyr]

Because she was Taken and working with Savathun at the time

[slim elk]

Also proved we were smarter then Ikora and Eris by noticing the wish combo on Savathuns wings

[languid crater]

Aintnoway

[trim grotto]

We were asked to.

[hearty dagger]

Also, she was kinda the true entity responsible for Cayde's death.

[languid crater]

F

[fresh zephyr]

That whole lore tab has always amused me just because it finally ended the debate about the Guardian. So many people constantly claimed the Guardian 'wasn't that strong' and that we were actually weaker than people like Ikora, Saint and Osiris because they could pull off cool stuff in the lore that we can't do in gameplay.

[languid crater]

If we helped the hidden why do they continue to stalk us

[slim elk]

Its there jobs lol

[languid crater]

😭🙏🏻

[slim elk]

We also tend to encounter all matter of shit, so following us around is a good way to get intel

[languid crater]

So why do they never help us fight

Kinda selfish

[fresh zephyr]

Cause we don't exactly need help

And they are Intel gatherers

[hearty dagger]

The hidden aren't as strong as us.

Are the Hidden even always Guardians?

[fresh zephyr]

They can also be Ghosts

[slim elk]

Its unseen but all lore points to the fact the player Guardian would have a fireteam they stick with

Otherwise Savathun somehow causes 5 Guardians to magically disappear when we exorcised her worm

[fresh zephyr]

And besides

At least the Hidden aren't the Praxics

I still want to kill Aunor.

[trim grotto]

Oh, she's fine.

[slim elk]

How long till the Praxics are disbanded given Zavalas using stasis?

And yeah, Aunors the reasonable one

[fresh zephyr]

Im waiting for Guardian Civil War time

[hearty dagger]

I feel like the Praxics are more likely to revolt rather than disband.

[fresh zephyr]

^^

[dim minnow]

Praxics seem to still be wary of Darkness at this point

[slim elk]

By her own admission some of the more zealous Praxics wanted to pull a coup against the Vanguard over allowing Drifter in the Tower

[trim grotto]

They're not going to be disbanded. They're considering redirecting their attention instead of it being a pure blanket issue.

[hearty dagger]

Byf frothing at the mouth that his White Whale could surface soon.

[slim elk]

I admit, one thing that bemused me is anyone acting like the Vanguard dare was anything actually serious for the Hunters

If it was serious, Taniks would have been Hunter Vanguard a long time ago

[languid crater]

What are vanguard dare

[slim elk]

"You kill the Hunter Vanguard, you get the job."

[languid crater]

Is this a thing for every hunter

[trim grotto]

That depends on the Hunter. Different Hunters have issued different Dares.

[hearty dagger]

Which is why in Wild Card Cayde says that if the dare was Law Uldren would have the job.

[languid crater]

Why don't our enemy's shrimply kill drifter

[trim grotto]

What Freak said was only Cayde's

[languid crater]

What's drifters

[trim grotto]

He isn't a Hunter

[languid crater]

Bruh whay

I thought drifter was a hunter lmfao

What is he then

[trim grotto]

He is neither a Hunter, nor Titan, nor Warlock.

He's simply a Lightbearer

[empty fern]

A lightbearer

[languid crater]

😭😭😭😭

[empty fern]

A rat even

[languid crater]

So he's useless

[empty fern]

Says who

[trim grotto]

No? He's a Lightbearer.

[languid crater]

So why not have a new hunter vanguard

[hearty dagger]

He very much can wield stasis.

[empty fern]

?

[trim grotto]

Better play Final Shape my friend

[languid crater]

Then why he no class

[hearty dagger]

We do, it's Crow.

[languid crater]

Womp womp

[empty fern]

He’s the dealer behind an alley, we all love him but he’s illegal

[slim elk]

Long story short.
Hunters in general hate actually being responsible. Crow is just a rare exception

[languid crater]

So what's the point of him

[trim grotto]

I will still fight the Darkness. That is of paramount importance. Perhaps, if there can be peace, the Creed can be revisited to prioritize the defeat of humanity's enemies.

[empty fern]

Gambit

[languid crater]

I hate gambit

[empty fern]

WOMP WOMP

[trim grotto]

He's been helping us with a lot of Darkness and Darkness adjacent work for years now.

[hearty dagger]

Some Lightbearers can transcend the class system. For example there is a Legendary Guardian capable of using the powers of all 3 classes.

[empty fern]

Maybe helping eris in the future

[languid crater]

Then why can't we if we are so op

[trim grotto]

...pardon me?

[languid crater]

[slim elk]

Gameplay limitations