📚lore-discussion

[dim minnow]

Clarity is a reductive effect that reduces something into its simplest form

for instance, when Radiolaria is exposed to Clarity, it becomes a reductive pattern since this is what Unveiling states the Vex originated from

[compact sky]

interesting

[dim minnow]

the end of the Red War alerted the Black Fleet

hmmm

you know they never really explained what happened there

like the Traveler pushed back the Witness during the Collapse and it just left Sol until the end of the Red War

then it returned there during Arrivals

or maybe the Witness itself wasn't in Sol but its fleet was

[wheat flower]

Year 1 wasn't the besg year fkr lore or gameolay let's jjst fantheory that

[dim minnow]

like the Pyramids we saw in Arrivals was the first wave

maybe Bungie will explain it once they actualy get around to explaining what happened at the end of the Collapse

[ember storm]

Think we’re supposed to believe the witness, being met with a presumably-dead traveler and no location on the veil just sat idly by

it only started actually searching for the veil again once it was sure the traveler was perfectly fine and able to be linked

[dim minnow]

though there was also the Black Heart which we knew was actively hindering the Traveler's ability to heal

[eager trout]

Clarity subclass when?

[dim minnow]

and it is implied in lore that the Black Heart was sort of a tripwire to alert the Witness of the progress of the Traveler's recovery

[chrome fog]

Stasis

You get it from a statue

[eager trout]

Oh

[compact sky]

whats with the empty exo bodies scattered around europa, aswell as the large piles of exo bodies in the labs

[dim minnow]

maybe the Witness wanted to initially use the Black Heart as a means to achieve the Final Shape without the Veil, but once it realized that wouldn't happen, it just left it there to keep the Traveler from doing anything whiile it was trying to figure out where the Veil went

[dim minnow]

Europa is the main place where Exos came from

[shadow crypt]

what’s the lore behind scourge of the past

[dim minnow]

makes sense that there are a lot of Exo bodies there

[chrome fog]

Swore there was someone answering that specifically, as in they are prototypes that underwent DER or died during the Vex invasion of Europa

[dim minnow]

In the Botza District, there was a vault belonging to the Black Armory, a Golden Age weapon foundry who made high quality weapons.

[dim minnow]

The Vex-Exo war is more likely

in fact I'm pretty sure a few of them were that

[compact sky]

yeah but why are there so many

[chrome fog]

Especially considering the Vex had invaded that simulation meant to test Exo capabilities

[compact sky]

some even in places where a lab controlled exo shouldnt be like in the snow

[shadow crypt]

this took place in the last city right?

[dim minnow]

Clovis specifically went to Europa to find the key to fixing the DER issues with Exos

[chrome fog]

Can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs; can’t perfect Exo tech without a couple resets and deaths

[compact sky]

where they actual exo bodies, or just unused shells

[dim minnow]

Clarity Control was there and it couldn't really be moved, so he had his Exo building facility built around it

[dim minnow]

the ones just lying around likely were used at some point

[dim minnow]

correct

back to Scourge

[compact sky]

oh okay

[dim minnow]

so during the event of Season of the Forge, we were helping Ada-1 restore the Black Armory when we caught wind of a Fallen Syndicate called the Kell's Scourge who were trying to steal Black Armory tech for themselves

[compact sky]

so to get things straight, DSC was a place used to specifically test and transfer human minds to exos, and Europa was made to test DER and create exos

or am I confused

[dim minnow]

The Kell's Scourge were a syndicate dedicated to anarchism and they were lead by Siviks, Lost to None

[tropic swift]

What is strand?

What is it exactly

[dim minnow]

one at a time geez

[river ruin]

A darkness subclass

[dim minnow]

Siviks is Spider's brother and the two had history with Mithrax during his pirating days

[tropic swift]

Yeah.. but what is it exactly

[chrome fog]

The entirety of the Europa complex was dedicated to the development of the Exo technology

[river ruin]

The green darkness subclass

[dim minnow]

Spider and Siviks had a falling out and Spider had him locked up in the Prison of Elders where he escaped at the start of Forsaken

[tropic swift]

😐

[chrome fog]

Manipulation of a fabric of the universe called the Weave, a psychic layer that connects all of reality

[chrome fog]

Not constructive

[river ruin]

Can't take a joke

[dim minnow]

so anyways, we had to go to the Scourge raid to stop Siviks from opening Vault Ebisu (the name of the Black Armory vault) and taking the powerful technology that lies within

[tropic swift]

So it's like quantum physics as a subclass

[shadow crypt]

ah ok

[chrome fog]

They’re asking a genuine question and being met with someone being thickheaded

[shadow crypt]

Calus was exiled right?

[river ruin]

No

[compact sky]

Quantum strings

[river ruin]

Also no

[dim minnow]

so Clovis had issues with creating exos and wanted solutions. The Witness used the K1 anomaly to guide Clovis to Europa where he found Clarity Control where he was later guided to bring the Vex to Europa so he can expose Radiolaria with Clarity

[compact sky]

huh, then I'm wrong

[chrome fog]

Actually yes kinda, some people have connected it to String Theory but also there is the aesthetics being parallel to the double slit experiment to demonstrate the weird properties of photons, themselves being particles of electromagnetism which is an ever present aspect of reality

[dim minnow]

the DSC facility was built over Clarity Control because he couldn't actually move it

[chrome fog]

It’s not exactly quantum physics but it’s tangential

[compact sky]

ah

[shadow crypt]

how the hell did Calus come into possession of the leviathan if he was exiled?

[dim minnow]

it seems that the Creation area in Braytech Exoscience was mainly where exo bodies were produced

[chrome fog]

It was formerly the prison barge holding him

[compact sky]

where did Per Audacia Ad Astra come from?

[dim minnow]

however, the DSC is where the more advanced stuff behind Exominds is worked on

[tropic swift]

Wouldn't that be considered a good thing due to the fact you're using things that hold the universe together?

[dim minnow]

I think it is the main slogan for the Cosmodrome

[compact sky]

and the starside thing

[shadow crypt]

thought he was lost in space or something then he heard a voice or whatever

yada yada

is that after

[dim minnow]

that might have just been Byf's thing

[compact sky]

ah ty

[ember storm]

The witness contacted him after he just drifted aimlessly through space on the Levi

[chrome fog]

Yes? It’s the same as all our other paracausal abilities in that we manipulate the fabric of existence

[dim minnow]

Calus was thrown into the Leviathan which acted as his prison

[compact sky]

actual cosmodrome or d2 cosmodrome

[river ruin]

it's kinda dumb people try to connect to string theory when it really has nothing to do with it

[dim minnow]

the Leviathan's navigation systems were locked by the coup so he wasn;t able to control the ship's movement until he encountered the Witness for the first time at the Black Edge

[ember storm]

Calus was too popular for the uprising to just kill, so they sent him off in exile on his lavish party ship forever as punishment

[shadow crypt]

oh ok

[dim minnow]

good chance that part may have been Calus' delusions though

[tropic swift]

I mean it's considered "darkness" in which our guardian was made to believe that "darkness is bad" yet we are using the fabric of time and space as a weapon...

[ember storm]

Also fair

[dim minnow]

Caiatl was the one who wanted Calus kept alive

[river ruin]

Strand isn't the fabric of space and time tho

[tropic swift]

It's the string theory

[river ruin]

It isnt

[shadow crypt]

was the leviathan raid just us being invited by Calus to prove ourselves to him?

[river ruin]

Yeah

[tropic swift]

It basically is...

[river ruin]

No it isnt

[ember storm]

Yes, as we ended up being the one who killed Ghaul instead of the assassins Calus tried sending

We were also the first Lightbearers Calus ever encountered so he was very intrigued

[chrome fog]

String theory itself is about the inter connectivity of various processes across impacting others on the otherside of existence, essentially an escalation of the butterfly effect on a physics level. The connection is considerable

[ember storm]

The raid just served as a way for him to be entertained and to see if we were worth anything

We came back on two separate occasions in Eater of Worlds and Spire of the Stars where we loosely helped Calus and reinforced his positive opinion on us

which then led to Season of Opulence where he officially offered us a position as one of his Shadows

[chrome fog]

That’s part of the narrative for Beyond Light, learning that Darkness is not connected to any moral component it’s just another force for us to use responsibly

[dim minnow]

Calus was interested by the fact we destroyed Ghaul

[river ruin]

Not really when you realize sting theory would be physical and you the darkness isn't physical

[tropic swift]

our guardian is cannonly the most powerful being in the universe

[chrome fog]

And yet it still influences the physical world. It’s as if there is a bleed-over between the two and whilst there are clear differences there are also similarities in which they are connected to the physics of the universe

[river ruin]

Powerful guardian

[chrome fog]

Nope

We’re just really good

Which is partially the point with Paracausality

[shadow crypt]

what happened later?

[chrome fog]

You don’t automatically win because you’re more powerful, any underdog can use Paracausality to upset the balance and win in the end

[river ruin]

And yet string theory is wholly physical while strand isnt

[grand jungle]

Y’all think there something more powerful then the wittness?

[ember storm]

Well Calus did what he always said he would do, sit back and relax and wait for the universe to end

[river ruin]

Yes

[tropic swift]

Dumb question, which subclass is the most "vampiric" in theme?

[river ruin]

Void

[chrome fog]

Void; devour

[ember storm]

Only for the black fleet to invade the solar system, cause season of arrivals, and then just leave

they took a few planets and moons, and Calus was left very disappointed and feeling betrayed

[dim minnow]

it's really just the fact that we will our desire to overcome the enemy and a series of events occur that cause the enemy to get in a position where they can me beaten

[chrome fog]

It would be ridiculous for them to be revealed now so close to the Witness’ defeat but maybe. Not plausible but maybe.

[tropic swift]

Dude... we can't make black holes with grenades either... the ideas there but they just made it more physical because of "space magic"

I mean I like void for my warlock so I don't mind

[ember storm]

This led to his scheme in Presage in the glykon where he forced a communication with the witness

[chrome fog]

There’s also the pulse rifle that shoots actual black holes, no Paracausality involved

So like

[river ruin]

What are you yapping about

[chrome fog]

Physics our bitch

Which is the point

Kinda

There’s pins that have analysis on the subclasses to elaborate on how they influence physics to cause the effects they have

[tropic swift]

Hes saying that "it can't be string theory because string theory isn't physical why strand is" YET we are talking about a game where we can make a bomb with a black hole

[shadow crypt]

hold up were we helping Calus in crown of sorrow as well?

[chrome fog]

Which is part of the intrigue with Destiny

[shadow crypt]

CoS is before presage right?

[river ruin]

That's not what I am saying at all

[chrome fog]

Wouldn’t… String Theory not being physical… support Strand being connected to it because it itself isn’t also not really physical?

I’m not even a big proponent of that interpretation but like that’s not a great argument

[river ruin]

Yeah cuz he strawmaned it

[tropic swift]

Idk, he's the one mentioning physicality, I agree with it being string theory based

Some reason he doesn't so idk :/

[ember storm]

Kinda but not personally

[chrome fog]

he seems really determined to make it his thing

[ember storm]

A cabal on the track to becoming a hive god and commandeering the leviathan was just really bad news

[chrome fog]

Just block and move on from him

[ember storm]

Calus was just naturally in danger of it too

But it was also 100% his own fault it even happened

[river ruin]

He literally strawmaned my argument tho? Are you blind

[shadow crypt]

ghalran?

[river ruin]

Do you even know what I am arguing

[tropic swift]

didn't we kill calus in the last dlc?

[ember storm]

However you spell it yeah

[ember storm]

This was years later after Calus had officially become a disciple and actively joining the black fleet

Prior to that he was basically just a fat potato with weird political views

The vanguard wasn’t even particularly concerned about his actions

[tropic swift]

I never did the raids because I was a casual who couldn't find anyone

[shadow crypt]

didn’t Calus like grow ghalran or some shit for the sole purpose of seeing what the crown of sorrow could do

[chrome fog]

Clone Calus made to wear the Crown without risking his own self, as he was aware the Crown of Sorrow was a two-way connection and would allow Savathun manipulate whoever wears it, though wearing the Crown would allow insight into the knowledge of the Hive

[ember storm]

Calus recognized the crown was an obvious trap

But instead of trying any other method of using it or just literally getting rid of it

He tried making someone else wear it instead

[river ruin]

But yeah just cuz strand has stings in it doesn't make it like string theory

[shadow crypt]

the next we see of the crown of sorrow is in presage?

[tropic swift]

buddy, it's a bunch of strings that work to connect the universe and how everything works... You also are able to spawn swarms out of tiny strings...

[chrome fog]

They’re not looking to agree with anyone just move on from them

[ember storm]

Yes, after which we reclaim it for the sake of study

[tropic swift]

Destiny makes me want to grab a physic textbook

[river ruin]

I don't want to hear it from you when you don't even know my argument

[river ruin]

That's not what strand is tho

[ember storm]

Eris then later on has the idea of utilizing it to bind our nightmares into a more concentrated form to properly handle together when season of Haunted started and the Levi encroached on the moon

[shadow crypt]

how did it even get on the ship

during presage

[ember storm]

He owned the glykon

And the crown

And just moved it there

[shadow crypt]

Ohh

[chrome fog]

It's fun seeing the physics connections, also painful but it's Destiny we're used to it

[chrome fog]

Then say what Strand is aside from Green Darkness Subclass

[tropic swift]

Like spending 3 years to get a pair of gloves

[river ruin]

I did. You are just blind at this point

Maybe actually read my messages for once

[chrome fog]

Nope remain blocked

Lurks for 2 years and then starts shit in the lore channel and can't accept what others say

[river ruin]

Willfully ignorant

[river ruin]

I can. You guys were the ones who came in with your high horses.

[tropic swift]

I asked a question
"green darkness subclass"

[river ruin]

Yeah that was a joke

[tropic swift]

I'm not here to fight

[river ruin]

Bio doesn't read half of my messages then wonders why he can't make sense of my argument

[chrome fog]

Did you answer what Strand is?

[river ruin]

Yes I did

[chrome fog]

Aside from Green Darkness Subclass?

Please enlighten me as to what it is

[river ruin]

I already said it. Maybe scroll up and read what my argument was instead of getting from a guy who strawmaned it

[chrome fog]

You can repeat it

[tropic swift]

or reply to it pinging us

[chrome fog]

You've only rebuttled it not being String Theory

And said it is Green Darkness Subclass

For the definition, what is Strand

[river ruin]

The connective force between consciousness

[chrome fog]

Close

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/strand-log-ii#book-warp-and-weft

[river ruin]

Yeah this is what I said

Just more in depth

[chrome fog]

Ironically for all your complaints of it not being physically Osiris says as such in the second paragraph

[chrome fog]

One sentance sure is in-depth

[tropic swift]

the yarn subclass

[chrome fog]

Anyways gn and be better Boberto

[river ruin]

When did I say one sentence was in depth? This is what I mean by you can't read. You have zero reading comprehension skills

[river ruin]

Says the one who can't even write me right

Bro needs to get his reading comprehension up

[tropic swift]

<--exo warlock breaking lore

[river ruin]

i never said strand wasnt physical. you would know this if you actually read what i said. be better and read what people write instead of living in your fantasy world

[empty fern]

Watch this

[chrome fog]

I wanna sleeeep go away Bob

Hehe Bob, like “Born On Board” from Marathon

Anyways night, sleep well y’all

[river ruin]

then go to sleep. not my fault you made mistake that i had to correct you on

[empty fern]

“Like hair on a squirrel”

[chrome fog]

Stop making my phone piiing

[tropic swift]

._.

[sharp osprey]

in lore, is deepsight considered a "subclass"?

[willow dagger]

maybe

[latent wing]

can someone remind me again why crow killed cayde? its been like almost a year since i have played

[mental meadow]

I'm Gona assume you mean uldren sov

[latent wing]

yes

he is referred to as crow in the latest expansion

[mental meadow]

I don't remember the exact reason but it's important to keep crow and uldren separate

They are different people

Same body

[latent wing]

hmm, okay i see.

[mental meadow]

Uldren wasn't a guardian, he was simply the awoken prince, brother to mara sov

After we killed uldren in forsaken, he was resurrected as crow

I don't remember why uldren killed cayde tho :(

[latent wing]

inside the traveler seems to me to be some sort of afterlife? im a little confused

[dim minnow]

Cayde was the one who locked the Scorn Barons in the Prison of Elders in the first place

he was also a close friend of Petra Venj who Uldren was turned against

then there was the fact he was there to stop them from escaping the PoE

[turbid frigate]

can you still get lumina the exotic hand cannon?

[dim minnow]

from the exotic kiosk

Monument to Lost Lights I believe

[dim minnow]

the Pale Heart is a realm of pure light/potential

it is shaped by the memories of those present

[willow dagger]

~waits for the story time with Mael~

[dim minnow]

Lost City/Landing are based on the old Tower and the Last City

Refraction is based on the Dreaming City and correlates with Crow specifically

Blooming is based on the Cradle on Io and is tied to Ikora

Seclusion is based on Zavala's old homestead

Divide/Impasse is the Cosmodrome and is linked heavily to us

since it is where we first began

I believe the other areas after that are more linked to the Witness who was corrupting the land

though the place the Witness was first created appeared in it

the whole afterlife thing seems separate

and I believe it is more of within the Traveler's mind

perhaps

since those who are of the Light are linked to the Traveler

which includes Guardians and Ghosts

[ruby pivot]

i just got sundaresh experiment ship, i am slowly believing that sundaresh will be in this season

[fresh zephyr]

Interesting, so I've been doing Micah's missions and it's confirmed that the Veiled Statues in the Pyramids themselves are also Dissenters. Which is what I thought, but I've seen some folks who thought otherwise.

[sharp osprey]

which has some implications

we stand before a veiled statue when we receive stasis, right?

clarity control is a veiled statue

the moon pyramid

these are all dissenters

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah. But we know they are still ultimately pieces of the Witness, and it can act through them when it wants too, just like it can any other 'Darkness' object like the Veil or the weird Darkness fungus.

But it would be cool if they'd been helping us indirectly all along

[sharp osprey]

i think that that's definitely possible

[fresh zephyr]

It does give new context to all the whispering though

They've at least been trying to talk with us all this time

Also the Micah quests are really good in general. I love how they used them to integrate some of the old lore

[sharp osprey]

just rewatched the targe death cutscene

it seems kind of like the witness doesn't really even notice its dissenters because it can't conceive the idea that it has any doubts

[blazing stream]

Oh god I just came to a realization

[sharp osprey]

but then again, it trapped the dissenters in those statues, so idk

[blazing stream]

Lakshmi-2 is imprinted with the personality of Maya Sundaresh pre-Vex fuckery and the possible baddie of Episode Echoes is rumored to be a Vex copy of Maya Sundaresh manifesting(byf did a speculation vid on it), I think we getting Shohreh Aghdashloo back in D2 boys.

Best Iranian VA. Loved her in Expanse and Destiny

Also it's kinda suspect that we got a Lore card shotgun dedicated to Lakshmi in Final Shape
(See Someday)

Kinda being we also got Micah, Ikora's ghost(can't spell that shit), Cayde, etc

[blazing stream]

I still love in Veil Containment where everybody ingame and out of game collectively went "wait what" when learning Maya Sundaresh was also Lakshmi-2

[empty fern]

Kek

[blazing stream]

No really, Osiris cutting in on Chioma's recording "What" was really cool on Bungie's part, like even the characters had to chime in on their surprise with us

But yea Episode Echoes, I gotta agree, I think were finally confronting a Maya Sundaresh copy in physical form, makes sense too cause who else would be a humanoid Vex form than Maya? Kabr could be in reacting to Echo's arrival on Nessus as he was a lightbearer before conversion.

Could also be Asher by that logic too

But I def believe it to be MSund12

[fresh zephyr]

Hell, it might not even be one of the Vex copies

We don't know what Maya was attempting when she linked her mind with the Veil.

It killed her body, but there's no telling what happened with her mind given what the Witness was able to do with Veil fuckery.

Also...Just did the Moon quest for Micah and saw the conversation the Witness had with Nezarec.

It wanted Nezarec to show the Psions the 'power of the Veil. The Dark of the Deep. The edge of the Knife.'

That

Plus this

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/balance-of-power

'"The Veil is dangerous," Chioma asserts, her voice is tinged with a tremor of emotion. Fear of losing the woman she loves keeps her from pushing harder as they stand on the edge of moral precipice together.

'It is.'

"It is," Maya agrees aloud. "We must treat it with caution, respect, and also… reverence." A thought crystallizes. "We must treat it like a knife."

So....This is interesting

I think the Veil might be the actual 'First Knife' of Unveiling. Kinda goes along with the whole theory I have about the original incarnation of the Traveler and Veil being the Garden. So many tidbits and teases but still no definitive answers. Damn it, Bungie.

[steep abyss]

So when we go "inside" the traveler are we actually going inside it or being teleported to like another dimension?

[fresh zephyr]

We are literally inside of it.

After you get past the 'threshold', you are actually inside the Traveler and if you look around, you can see the structures inside of it. The Pale Heart is basically the Light within the Traveler being shaped into what we see by the Darkness.

[steep abyss]

It makes my brain hurt just thinking about it, but thank you for your explanation

[royal adder]

does this sword actually exist for us it looks sick

also whats it called

[trim grotto]

Ah, Raze-Lighter

[fresh zephyr]

It used to. It's a D1 sword that never made it to D2. Razelighter.

[trim grotto]

A classic D1 Exotic

[royal adder]

oooh

aww it looks so cool also is this the right channel for this stuff?

[trim grotto]

It'd either be here or #🏆destiny-media I suppose

[royal adder]

ooh

thanks

[modern lodge]

MY DARK DRINKER I NEED IT

[chrome fog]

Did it? I don’t remember her dying to the Veil, I thought the assumption was she died of old age because they stopped her from continuing her research

She uploaded a mindscan instead of sacrificing her life, unlike the precursors

[blazing wasp]

She probably died given that she's a exo.

Ya die getting the scan to be a exo, no?

[fresh zephyr]

She created Lakshmi in Log 9 using a mental imprint she made using the Veil and a bunch of dead Exos in an entirely different process than how Braytech did it.

Maya died in Log 11, which was a while later, after Chioma found her dead body in the Conductor's chair alone, and she had no idea what Maya had been attempting.

[chrome fog]

Not for all mindscans; Clovis just likes the one that ends up killing the physical body because of higher data fidelity

[blazing wasp]

Ah

[fresh zephyr]

My guess is whatever she was attempting with Lakshmi was an experiment for whatever she did later that actually killed her. So who knows exactly what she did. Could've made herself like the Witness as some kind of disembodied Darkness entity or something else entirely. Or maybe she's just actually dead.

[naive raptor]

Did we steal our Thorn(s) from a shadow of Dredgen? Because to originally get it, from the quest, we had to go to the EDZ and find it. And where did we find it again? In a pile of ashes, and how could a shadow of dredgen turn to a pile of ashes exactly? Shin Malphur's golden gun.

[trim grotto]

Our Thorns were made ourselves, by us, as replicas in a similar vein to those used by the old Dredgens. It was a whole quest.

This Thorn, if I recall was used to create Lumina. It was the real, original Thorn.

[ember storm]

the original yes, left for us to find by shin

It was just a campfire and he tossed it in

[naive raptor]

Because when we got it, it was titled "a hunk of metal" if I remember correctly.

[ember storm]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/bearer-of-evils-past

[trim grotto]

Anyway, Shin Malphur himself left Thorn for us to find.

Specifically for us

[stark fjord]

is asher mir just eris but vex

a fireteam goes to enemy teritory and only one comes out with a body part representing the enemy with no ghost and no light

[jagged badge]

Asher still had his Ghost and still had his Light I’m fairly certain

[fresh zephyr]

His Ghost got Vexified didn't it? Or was at least in the process.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-eris-morn

Yeah. Dunno if it was still functional enough for him to keep his Light or not though.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/asher-mirs-one-way-ticket

Nevermind, yeah, he'd lost his Light. No rezzes for him.

[tired lava]

Chat, Eris Morn was a Hunter and not a Warlock?

[gentle geyser]

Yes

[tired lava]

bro what 💀

[gentle geyser]

What?

She doesn’t have the light anymore so you just haven’t seen her do hunter things

[chrome fog]

She has raspberry on

[gentle geyser]

Hunters gonna be getting the eris cosplay for the 3rd episode

I expect to see eris cosplays when heresy drops

[stark fjord]

shes a hunter more specifically a blade dancer

[tropic swift]

aren't all classes?

[stark fjord]

thank u someone said it

[tropic swift]

I just necrotic to make my thorn go stupid

[devout vine]

Tactical drip INBOUND!!!

Real talk..when I rock the navigator set, You all better not get crumbs in my dreadnought

[tropic swift]

too late

[stark fjord]

what they mean to say is that we will get eris based armour more akin to her armour as a hunter

[tropic swift]

I wish strife subclass was a thing

red would have been so dope

[stark fjord]

the nightmare subclass?

the thing i

is*

the subclasses were getting are polar opposites of the light ones

[tropic swift]

Nightmare opposite of arc

[stark fjord]

void is the opposite of strand

[tropic swift]

😐

[stark fjord]

nothing and everything

stasis is the opposite of solar

[tired lava]

Nah I was just taken aghast

[tropic swift]

Again, strife opposite of arc

[tired lava]

I never expected Eris to be a Hunter given with her vast knowledge of Hive and doo hickie spells

[stark fjord]

by strife do u mean nightmare

[tropic swift]

yuh

[stark fjord]

memory

[tired lava]

Cause Hunters I usually see them as pew pew oh? solar gun

[stark fjord]

bro thats deepsight

[tired lava]

Then again

nvm Dredgen Yorr was not a Hunter

[tropic swift]

No there was a "teased" red subclass called strife

[stark fjord]

there rlly wasnt

[tropic swift]

Wish it were true 😦

[devout vine]

It's a small leak...everyone has been talking about it for ages

Only time will tell if Luke Smith wants it in

[tropic swift]

this thingy

[devout vine]

Or if its just not in the plans

[tropic swift]

episode 2...?

[chrome fog]

Unfortunately leaks and data mines are not allowed within this server, and like said before it’s not plausible that a new subclass is being released what with Prismatic being only 2 weeks old

[tropic swift]

still would have been dope

[devout vine]

It's a pipe dream...
Everyone should be happy and focused on the state of prismatic

Forget that

WHAT ABOUT STASIS???

https://tenor.com/view/elon-musk-brando-massacred-gif-8593439218992598591

[tropic swift]

I prefer the non hybrid

But red be amazing

[stark fjord]

thank u

the whole strand thing is baseless

[tropic swift]

it's a dope concept

[iron mortar]

Do you guys think there are disciples we haven't seen yet

Or would bringing them be pointless as they would be weaker than the witness

[gentle geyser]

Yes but most specifically the hunter

I mean there has to be just due to the fact that they made a new faction that isn’t just reskinned gameplay

[iron mortar]

It's nice to see what she looked like as a hunter

[jagged badge]

What?

[gentle geyser]

Ah yes eris was just casually having 3 eyes before the luna incident

[chrome fog]

Fair

But also those "leaks" never found foundation as we got Strand instead of any Nightmare subclass, and then we got Prismatic the next release after Strand

[tired lava]

chat so Zavala had a biological son?

Or did he marry the woman and then adopt the son?

[devout vine]

Adopted

Hakeem

[tired lava]

So Guardians are sterile?

Like cant procreate whatnot

[devout vine]

One he and Safiyah raised

[jagged badge]

We don’t know

[tired lava]

Ah

Cause I was thinking right

How come the son aint half awoken

[devout vine]

There isn't any lore that suggests guardians have stopped their duty to.start families

[jagged badge]

It’s noted that Saladin cannot have children either but for all we know that’s a specific thing

[devout vine]

Cuz he's not their blood son

[raw hazel]

Hakim was adopted

[tired lava]

Ye

[jagged badge]

At the same time, we don’t have a single example of a Lightbearer having a child

[tired lava]

is the wife dead or?

[jagged badge]

Producing a child rather

[devout vine]

But....
We could find out moving forward

The threat of the witness is gone

[jagged badge]

Safiyah is dead now, but she wasn’t killed with Hakim

[devout vine]

And gives us a chance to find some.semblance in peace

[tired lava]

Thanks for info chat

[jagged badge]

Zavala and Safiyah fell apart due to his grief and self-blame

[devout vine]

Guardians could find a way to settle down and have families

If they aren't in fact sterile

[jagged badge]

Safiyah lived a full life in the City and died after starting a new family

[fervent sandal]

Is there a scientific name of sorts for the war beast or are they just called war beast

[stark fjord]

theyre an etirely new genus

there is no scientific name

theyre literaly alien lizard dogs

[fervent sandal]

Alright

[chrome fog]

The Teen rating does not seem accommodating to finding that out

[stark fjord]

closest one i can think of would be canis manis tbh

cus its part cainine and part pangolin

[earnest minnow]

Of all the places where Bungie could have begun the journey of the player... why Russia?

Was it an arbitrary pick, or a deliberate decision that is important for the story?
Asking as someone who's never played D1 and only joined with Shadowkeep

[chrome fog]

Just cause

Also that’s where the colony ship port happened to be built at

[river bronze]

Most likely because of the Baikonur Cosmodrome, however it is in Kazakhstan not Russia

[empty fern]

Nah we saw that

[river bronze]

Cause I searched up the question

[empty fern]

[chrome fog]

I mean yes but also their question was more of the significance of the Cosmodrome aside from just being a convenient location to find a body

To which there isn’t any cosmic significance as far as we know, just a place with a ton of bodies from across the centuries

[earnest minnow]

I would reckon that the intention was romantic

That the starfaring adventure begins at the place where humanity first went "boldly to the stars"

[chrome fog]

That’s true

[vital lodge]

who

[chrome fog]

Maybe the dissenters

[compact sky]

how many lore books are there of recounts of guardians getting revived, like their reactions of it, aside from the one about Cayde

[chrome fog]

A couple

The first entry of Drifter’s book covers his resurrection

The entries covering Orin’s history too, covers from her riding on the Exodus Green, then re-emerging to the Distributary, then resurrecting and her going to the Nine on command of Mara, breaking Xur’s back when he offered her the urn holding her mother’s ashes (which she forgot about when she re-emerged an Awoken and then extra forgot when she resurrected as a Lightbearer)

She’s also the Emissary

[white girder]

Guys who wants an expansion of the Brays?

[white girder]

But it is run by a Russian space agency

[frank glen]

Anyone here know what this is?. i don't think this was at the Enclave be for

[chrome fog]

It’s an international space port for the colony ships

[compact sky]

How old is Ada?

actually, whats the oldest known exo

[compact sky]

either that or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle

[chrome fog]

She is the most recent individual to undergo the Exo process save for Atraks

She was a child when she underwent it, so she’s maybe a decade older than the time it’s been since the Collapse

[worldly river]

There's a few spots like that with cut up or mangled figures that popped up as a result of the Witness trying to enforce the Final Shape
Specifically it's a spot for one of the Lost Ghosts quest from Micah-10, most or all of said spots are

[iron mortar]

I meant like with the cloak and stuff, not the eyes

[ember storm]

not really what she looked like at all

she was just a completely standard guardian wearing everyday gear

[knotty plinth]

Since all ghosts are connected through the light, and sagira even talked through our ghost for a bit, could one ghost theoretically hijack another and just stay? Or could two guardians share the same ghost?

[empty fern]

Saint or, that insane one on Uranus?

[ember storm]

I don’t think Saint even would be

He was living concurrently with normal reality

Infinite forest doesn’t have time dilation

[worldly river]

Hard to say, I don't think it's really clear HOW Sagira did that, and given she wasn't dead it's hard to tell if it had anything to do with everythign being connected in the Light

[knotty plinth]

hmm

[ember storm]

I think it had more to do with how weirdly fucked and obsessive the followers of Osiris were that they just slapped together technology built specifically for Sagira

[worldly river]

That said there is one time we've seen a Ghost essentially control their Exo Guardian's body, but that was also seemingly due to a technological implant

[worldly river]

That said given she's had no resets, she's probably the one with the longest active memory

I don't think any other Exos who weren't suffering from the screwiness with Exo Guardians remember the Collapse

[ember storm]

How do we even begin to classify Lakshmi

Would she even need resets??

[worldly river]

Lakshmi already had a reset, that's why she's Lakshmi-2

[ember storm]

Did Felwinter require any as the golem?

[trim grotto]

All living, non-Guardian Exo, survived the Golden Age and the Collapse. Ada-1 was created during the Collapse. The only other exceptions are Atraks-1 (dead, of course), and the Rasputin/Clovis AI frame from Seraph.

[ember storm]

isn’t that the number of the original Lakshmi

The person that Maya knew and just pushed onto the experiment

[trim grotto]

It was implied

"I don't think that's my name."
"I know. Say it anyway."
"Why can't I remember my name? I always remember my name. Something's wrong. Was I damaged in Crypt processing?"
"I don't know anything about the Deep Stone Crypt. Before my time."```

[trim grotto]

Despite her unique status, I don't see why not, should the situation have presented itself

[ember storm]

but where would she get one

wasn’t she just shoved off as is once Maya died

[worldly river]

That's true, though her memories of Maya's life were only partial, it's also possible her memories were suppressed before she ended up on Earth cuz it's awfully weird that she never so much as hinted at knowledge of an entire human civilization on Neptune

[trim grotto]

I don't know what you mean by that

We've had City Age Exo experience resets

[ember storm]

sorry wrong question

did she get resets in neomuna?

[worldly river]

We have no idea

Probably not, or else you'd think her designation would be changed

[trim grotto]

I'd have to go back over the dialogue but I have to get back to work

[hallow fulcrum]

With echoes I am guessing we will see a new vex faction , maybe one more alive and paracausal ,one where their would be distinct villans maybe

[chrome fog]

It’s more likely to be special Sol

But also whomever the Echoes faction is could be an entirely new faction

[worldly river]

Well we're definitely already seeing a new faction in these "Compelled" Vex, but at least as of yet it's not a matter of them developing individuality, it's someone hijacking control seemingly via the Echo that landed there

That said there was that mention of a Vex that was cut off from a Mind and still gathering its own data, and some yet-unresolved plot threads about "Abberant" Vex from Seraph

[hallow fulcrum]

I think sol is very diffrent from the echoes vex , as echoes vex are probably effected by the artifact itself who knows how that will effect the network in comparison sol vex are just normal vex which want to accomplish same things but just by a diffeent method

Because whatever it is the echoes , it's causing a civil war in radiolaria as far as I understand

[ember storm]

the Compelled vex are being controlled by the new entity (who’s pretty obviously Maya)

[hallow fulcrum]

How did she control them though

[worldly river]

Something to do with the Echo

We don't know yet though

[ember storm]

It’s not overtly complicated

Maya had been studying vex for centuries, and whether this is a copy or somehow the original wouldn’t matter

the Echo would grant her unique paracausal power

She’s already shown a tendency to puppet machines into doing her using (turning Clovis’ surgery into a torture session)

the Collars that resemble the Ishtar logo seem to be the main thing

[hallow fulcrum]

But as I think failsafe mentioned radiolaria fighting so it's not just robots and frames but radiolaria itself she would have to control its more reasonable to assume the radiolaria itself has changed on nessus

[ember storm]

if you saw what happened in the trailer you’d agree

[ember storm]

understanding and then changing radiolaria on a cellular level isn’t hard

[hallow fulcrum]

Maya could have used that to her advantage would be a bit more likely

[ember storm]

Alkahest was made just by frying all the vex cells through darkness

[hallow fulcrum]

To be fair yeah single cells could be controlled

[ember storm]

Stands to reason you could instead influence vex cells through an echo (a perfect fusion of light and dark)

vex cells are naturally infectious so all you would need is one access point with large enough reach

since the entire planetoid of Nessus is being altered im assuming it has to do with whatever mind was set to replace Argos after it got chomped up by the Levi

[hallow fulcrum]

So we are looking at a vex civil war maybe ?

[ember storm]

from what we’ve seen there isn’t any “normal” vex on Nessus right now

[hallow fulcrum]

But they are on other planets

[ember storm]

where

[worldly river]

Also of note, the ghost shell mentions "My new ally" which seems like it's related to the Echo, but strangely implies the Echo is a being rather than just an object

[hallow fulcrum]

Problem is what does Maya want

[slim elk]

Something to do with the collars on all of them

[hallow fulcrum]

Light and dark combined so I was expecting that

[ember storm]

well consider where she was when she was on the end of her rope with the veil

[slim elk]

Osrisis mentions a bit of it in this entry
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/veiled-threat

[worldly river]

The collars could just be visual representation rather than anything mechanic, if she's controllign them via the individual radiolaria

Oh right forgot about that entry

[ember storm]

"You and the Guardian have seen those Vex with the rings around their necks," Saint continued, drawing a finger in a circle around his own neck. "'Yokes,' Osiris calls them."

Wow he’s literally calling them farm animals

Not cool Osiris

yoke is the wooden bar affixed to their neck

[hallow fulcrum]

I actually don't know about that

[ember storm]

well she was definitely not in a very good place mentally or physically

aka constantly in the presence of the veil and perpetually losing herself

[slim elk]

I mean
These Vex are being enslaved and all the dialogue is saying the controlled Vex seem to be investigating stuff

[ember storm]

https://youtu.be/e-Xf8uL2oco?si=3jwtCB_VON3cXOZm

Last we get on her situation

Probably just trying to pick up where she left off then

[slim elk]

Don't forget the mentions of a "chorus" in the vex boss names

[ember storm]

yeah failsafe refers to the infectious pattern as a “cleft” in dialogue

[slim elk]

We seen our conductor
Question is what song she's playing

Having a method to enslave the Vex would be effective way to neutralize them as a threat..

[hallow fulcrum]

If echoes were to grant both light and darkness powers or even combinations then well we will be dealing with new kinds if enemies all across

[ember storm]

well Fikrul finding one and literally just putting it on a stick means a couple of things

They can be used as batteries or cores

they do indeed have a limitless supply

[worldly river]

The ship (which isn't available in-game now, despite being visible in Collections, so some might consider this a bit of a spoiler) indicates that her motive is ||she wants to use the Vex as a means to rebuild human civilization, basically like how Siva was intended to be used and as Quicksilver was used||

[empty fern]

Damn

Now that’s a spoiler

[worldly river]

Or well

||maybe not human civilization, but A CIVILIZATION at least, all led by her and potentially a very small number of other individuals she deems worthy to lead such a rise||

[hallow fulcrum]

But this new faction isn't friendly

[worldly river]

Correct

[ember storm]

Maya was not friendly

[hallow fulcrum]

Eramis type thing ?

[slim elk]

||Neomuna 2.0 eh?||

[worldly river]

Not... at all like that, I don't think

[ember storm]

Eramis just wanted revenge and killed off anyone who didn’t want to be involved in it

This would be more like

Actually have you ever watched Kingsman

[hallow fulcrum]

Question is how aggressive will they go in their way if doing things

[slim elk]

One thing to note about the episodes is that we will probably neutralize a lot of threats effectively

Side effect of them being self comtained

[worldly river]

||Naturally, few are capable of positive contribution to this work, but that will be manageable. We don't need a chorus to form a quartet. People of science, vigorous study, those are the future humanity needs.||

More or less sums up her views on things

[worldly river]

I don't think they';ll be self-contained in that sense, just that they won't lead directly into one another

My speculation on the story structure is that each Episode will be sort of a single building block of whatever the plot of the next expac or big yearly release is

[slim elk]

Would be a bit odd to leave them on a cliffhanger admittedly

Then again. Immarus still alive..

So the Vanguard are still a bit dumb

[hallow fulcrum]

I would say episodes are like problems which are big enough for us to care about them but not big enough to be a threat , well unless they become one in the future

[worldly river]

Like look at what happened with Xivu Arath in Season of the Witch, that was pretty much disconnected from everything else that year but that was why Xivu wasn't present in TFS, and that's still an active plot thread

[slim elk]

Ah
By the Immaru thing.
We specifically have Immaru hostage to stop Savathun backstabbing us right?

She already did it.. and the big threats over

[hallow fulcrum]

What would be a fun thing to do would be us coming to a sort of a dead end where things are going on but we can't do anything about them because they might be happening in other part of space , we might come to a information dead-end etc because for episodes to just end after 2 months would be a waste of story honestly

[worldly river]

Probably because we still have a tenuous... I don't want to say alliance exactly, but Immaru's there as insurance should Savathun ever actually come after humanity

She's being a pain in the ass but she's not doing that

We crush Immaru and we lose any leverage we have to stop her from pulling a stunt like the Endless Night or even that thing where she teleported Xivu Arath into Torobatl again

And honestly even if we tried, she probably has a contingency to stop it anyway

[hallow fulcrum]

By the way what is thw relationship between witness and power of strand

[slim elk]

Issue:
She already is.

Trying to hijack the Pale Heart and all

[worldly river]

That's not her attacking humanity

Witch Queen's gonna Witch Queen and we can't threaten to crush her Ghost every time she does something shady

And we can more or less keep that under control ourselves anyway

[empty fern]

Tithing worm comment moment

[worldly river]

There isn't one, really, Strand was a power the Witness wasn't really aware of until we used it against it, at which point it integrated it into some of its forces in the Dread

[hallow fulcrum]

That's why my question is how come someone who has been the darkness guy for millenia not discovered strand but we somehow did , considering precursors would probably better know veil than us ,seems something more is there

[worldly river]

Probably because Strand is basically the polar opposite of its entire mindset

Strand is about letting go and not exerting direct control, "going with the flow" and all, whereas Stasis was a power that relied on exerting one's will on the universe

Also iirc part of the reason Strand manifests on Neomuna is the intersection of the Veil and the Cloudark, but idr for sure

[jagged badge]

I don’t think it’s to do with the CloudArk

It’s just that the Veil exposes concentrations of the Weave, allowing us to initially perceive it

Once we’d sufficiently advanced in our understanding of and training with Strand, we can easily pull from the Weave anywhere without needing a concentration to empower us

[slim elk]

I chalk it up to another causality of Lightfalls writing

Literally finding it in a street with no explanation..

[chrome fog]

Why tf would they go ahead and kill Immaru if Savathun's on her bet behavior whilst he's still alive? Why get rid of that leverage

It would moreso give her a reason to retaliate against us, even if she considers Immaru a little shithead

[slim elk]

Again
Are you missing the part where she's still actively hostile and working against the City's interest?

[fast tapir]

so we kill her ghost and make her want to work against the city even more?

[slim elk]

Crow literally says it outright asking why the hell Savathuns attacking Guardian forces in the middle of the Witness controlling the Traveler

[chrome fog]

Did we get anything aside from Luzaku saying that she and the other Lucent Hive stowed away on the Pyramids on Sav's command, and that her comrades' are just doing whatever the fuck they want because they're unsupervized?

Because that's something Luzaku points out specifically when we ask her why she isn't against us

[slim elk]

Wrong
The Lights the only thing keeping Savathun alive. Same as the rest of the Lucent Hive

[fast tapir]

huh

there have been plenty of moments where a connection to the light was lost and they stayed alive

[slim elk]

Immaru dies, means no Light. One dead Hive God
Problem Solved. Permanently

[slim elk]

Yes. It's the worms remember?

Why Savathun died in the first place?

[fast tapir]

i thought savs worm was no longer a problem?

[slim elk]

Bingo
We removed it? Savathun died as a result.
Light keeps her and rest of the Lucent Risen alive

So we literally have a killswitch to Savathun

[compact sky]

what are the pieces of lore on weapons and armour called

are they lore books or something else

[slim elk]

Lore tabs

[chrome fog]

And again the Lucent Hive in the Pale Heart aren't directly being ordered in any way as the extent of their instructions was to just hitch a ride via the Pyramids, they've just been doing their own thing

[chrome fog]

Lore entries/tabs, just find them in collections, usually seasonal weapons/armor and loot from endgame

/activities

[slim elk]

...
Did you miss the mission where Savathun shows up in person to trick us into doing a ritual?

[chrome fog]

Which mission

I'm still going through Final Shape, didn't realize she popped in during Echoes

[slim elk]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KPCImDD1kRU&pp=ygUXRGVzdGlueSAyIHF1ZWVucyBwYXJ0IDE%3D

[chrome fog]

Wtf is this

This don't look official

[fast tapir]

that is the mission

it is

its a post campaign mission

[slim elk]

I know you hate me Bionicle..
But this is quite blantant..

[chrome fog]

I don't hate you man, you just need to be better at discussion

[fast tapir]

[slim elk]

Your denying Savathun is acting directly against us
Then admit later you haven't done the full campaign

[chrome fog]

But ok that's pretty clear she wants to be a threat

[chrome fog]

You should've led with this instead of just saying outright

[compact sky]

what does DER stand for again

[raw hazel]

Dissociative Exomind Rejection

[slim elk]

I assumed it was basic common knowledge since you know.. a direct campaign mission and its been over a week since the dlc launch?

[slim elk]

Plus this was your immediate reaction to me posting a video of the whole mission

[chrome fog]

My history with you has been you claiming things regardless of available information, so I apologize for my stuborness

Still like saying "So based off of the post-campaign mission..." to anything you said before would've been much more clearer

Cite your sources

[slim elk]

Post campaign, the ending itself..

It's pretty clear Savathuns trying to control the Pale Heart

Anyone who played it would know lol

So..
Again
Why no Immaru crunch post Witness?

[dim minnow]

I'm guessing Drifter and Eris adopted him

judging by the post-Excision inkblot cutscene

[fast tapir]

💀

[chrome fog]

We discuss stuff that would be common knowledge to the individuals familiar with the material but we still cite where it's from to ensure others can follow

[slim elk]

Like.
I fully expect the ritual and other shit Savathuns doing is to avert the killswitch ||Especially given Caydes sacrifice to revive Ghost||

But still makes Vanguard look pretty foolish ignoring the solution to Savathun doing this lol

[fast tapir]

no immaru crunch probably because bungie has more story for her

only thing i can think of

surely she takes part in heresy!

[slim elk]

Aye

Be nice to have an explanation. Especially since Immaru being our hostage was a big deal back in Season of the Witch

[dim minnow]

maybe the Vanguard thinks that holding Immaru over Savathun's head will keep her from screwing around too much

or will force her to be more useful to us

[white girder]

well irl it is

[chrome fog]

Do we have a spaceport for interstellar colony ships in the present?

[empty fern]

Maybe

[slim elk]

Nope
Eliskni might be able to pull it off with Ketches

Dead Orbit took all the infrastructure otherwise when they left

Last City will be reliant on Caital or the House of Light for colony ships

[empty fern]

Aren’t skiffs kinda, cramped?

[slim elk]

Not skiffs

Ketches

[modern lodge]

Remind me does Saladin have a ghost?

[modern lodge]

Ketch's probably

[slim elk]

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.tEMna_SBxNBpRbsHozKSfAHaEK&pid=Api&P=0&w=640&h=360

[modern lodge]

We have caital's fleet aswell

So interstellar travel is very possible

[slim elk]

Yeah
Just reliant on our alien allies to do it

Dead Orbit took everything else at the end of Splicer

[empty fern]

It’ll probably happen soon, Saint and Osiris dream is something like that

[modern lodge]

All the exodious ships are fucked aren't they

[slim elk]

So..
Technically that already happened

We just need to track down the Factions and arrest their leaders

[flat crystal]

is it safe to assume the pale heart had no physical form before the darkness was in it

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah. You can see the 'original form' of the Traveler's interior after you get through the threshold. It's basically just full of Light.

[empty fern]

Smells like vanilla?

[fresh zephyr]

Wouldn't be surprised.

[lost abyss]

If Fenchurch enters the Pale Heart anytime, I wonder if the vanilla thing will be referenced.

[fresh zephyr]

We'll probably get a lore tab in a gun or something at some point talking about it given that he's been a relatively reoccurring character

[lost abyss]

Yeah, he even directly helped us during Seraph.

[compact sky]

wait... where the hell was Exo Stranger during the final shape

did I just miss her

[trim grotto]

She arrived for the final fight, she was there with Ana

[compact sky]

ah

[fresh zephyr]

It was kind of disappointing that she didn't have a bigger role to play in the story all things considered.

But I kinda take that as the usual 'We can only have so many characters in a given story'.

[trim grotto]

I get it. Elsie's story was helping guide us to and past a certain point. We're long past her experiences now. She was as lost as the rest of us.

[hearty dagger]

what are those big obelisk esque buildings in the last city? Do we know?

[empty fern]

A tower, but not our kind, but it’s something (we don’t know)

[trim grotto]

We don't, actually.

[fresh zephyr]

True, but I at least expected some information about how and why the Traveler set up the timeloop, or a hard confirmation that Elsie was being misleading about that.

[hearty dagger]

Is it possible to see the Eliksni Quarter from the tower?

[dim minnow]

you know, Drifter abandoned his whole apocalypse survival plan, so maybe Gambit lorewise can be repurposed into us gathering resources of some kind to fuel or build new colony ships

[fresh zephyr]

Technically, we wouldn't actually need any of them. Just Neomuna.

[trim grotto]

No, locations from this view and in the City don't seem to match up. It is, however, in/on the edge of a crater.

[hearty dagger]

With Rasputin gone/sort of our ally, Siva could be claimed for use by the Last city.

[fresh zephyr]

They have SIVA on steroids with the Quicksilver tech and can probably build ships super quickly

[slim elk]

Neomuna wont help. They are all still in the Cloudark and status quo dictactes the siege will never ease up.

[trim grotto]

Yes and no
There's no more replicator so SIVA is a limited resource with no central control node anymore

Neomuna may be able to produce more, but we'd need an AI mind to control it to a suitable degree. And I don't know about you, but I don't want Failsafe in charge of it.

[hearty dagger]

Are we sure it was the Traveler? It could have been an entity behind the Darkness, something that wasn't the witness.

[slim elk]

We have no solid info on it, the best we got is that it happens when Elsie dies in each timeline

[trim grotto]

The reset is often involving the Traveler. It's suggested the Traveler was involved, but we don't truly know.
However, I don't see what a second Darkness entity would gain from this.

[hearty dagger]

The Darkness isn't a monolith, a second Darkness entity could want something that isn't the Witness's version of the final shape.

[fresh zephyr]

Neomuna's only been so isolationist in the past because they had to stay hidden for survival. Their cover is blown, and back in Lightfall there was a lot being talked about in terms of their leadership talking with the Vanguard. And we don't need them out of the CloudArk to have access to Quicksilver.

[slim elk]

Really, the best effort for human made ships is tracking down where Dead Orbit ran off to and restablishing contact

[trim grotto]

Right, but what I was trying to get at is that's a total unknown on all fronts.
The best we've got is a tenuous connection to the Traveler, which does have a tangible logical connection as per why loops would exist.

[fresh zephyr]

And Elsie's loop began when the Traveler released a giant wave of Light at the climax of the Dark Future lorebook. It was hinted back in the Witch Queen CE lore that Elsie knew more about the nature of her loops than she let on, but we have no real reason to believe it wasn't the Traveler since that falls within it's influence.

[trim grotto]

Your theory isn't something I'm calling wrong, mind you

[hearty dagger]

Could it be a mixture of Light and Dark? An entity behind the dark using the Lightwave to send her back?

[fresh zephyr]

Possible, but we have no real reason to think that's the case.

[hearty dagger]

Or did Elsie not retain her memories until she met a Poulka? (I dunno how to spell it)

[fresh zephyr]

She still had her memories, but she went through so many loops it was becoming hard for her to keep track of things

[trim grotto]

She had strong memory issues
She couldn't remember much of the loops, can't even remember how many

[fresh zephyr]

Then she found the space fish and it helped her remember them more easily.

[trim grotto]

Anywho I'm back to work again ciao

[fresh zephyr]

Cya~

[hearty dagger]

That's what makes me think the darkness is involved. Memory is inherently tied with the Darkness, and usually doesn't have anything to do with the light.

[fresh zephyr]

The loop was basically her being transplanted into a new timeline, not her being rezzed or reset or anything

She wasn't doing a back to the future style loop where she was being sent back to her past self or something within a single timeline, since that kind of time travel doesn't actually exist in the Destiny universe. She was being moved from one timeline to another.

[hearty dagger]

I feel like there is still some things that aren't like expansion release worthy, but could use wraping up. Like Siva, if I'm not mistaken we didn't really stop Siva in Rise of Iron, we just stopped the Devil Splicers. Also Elsie's time loops and the Poulka are things that I feel should be explored.

[fresh zephyr]

Nah, SIVA is done. We blew up where it was produced so more cannot be made any longer, and killed off the Devil Splicer's leadership. There may still be random caches of it scattered around in some old colony ships, but it's a limited supply since it can't replicate on it's own.

And the Poulka and what they do and where Elsie found hers was explained back in Lightfall. But yeah, the timeloops def need to be explained at some point.

[hearty dagger]

Did it need the Perfection Complex to self replicate?

[fresh zephyr]

Yes

[hearty dagger]

Ah, gotcha

[fresh zephyr]

SIVA was designed to be unable to self-replicate on it's own to prevent a 'Grey Goo' scenario where it eats the world

It could only be produced at that one facility in the Plaguelands.

[hearty dagger]

I never played Rise of Iron, so I thought that we just stopped the Devil Splicers and Siva was just a "Let Sleeping Dogs lie" kind of thing.

[fresh zephyr]

Ah nah, yeah, we wrapped that stuff up a long time ago. So it's a done deal, basically.

But yeah, on the subject of Elsie's timeloops

I kind of wouldn't be shocked if they don't retcon their retcon and move her back to her original story.

[hearty dagger]

Are the Nine an Episode esque topic, or an Expansion release Topic?

[fresh zephyr]

I somewhat expected them to be the next big bad, honestly, so I would say expansion. But who knows what they'll do with them.

If anything at all.

[hearty dagger]

How many Echos were released from the Traveler? Cuz if it was more than 3, an Echo could allow the 4 members of the nine to do what they've wanted to for awhile.

[fresh zephyr]

They didn't say an exact number, but we only saw the three. Could be more, but I haven't seen any evidence for it yet.

[hearty dagger]

The starting cinematic of Echos showed a lot more than 3 objects jettisoning from the portal.

[fresh zephyr]

Did it?

I'll have to look at it again

I just know we saw the three during the final TFS cutscene

When we were watching the Traveler

[hearty dagger]

Yeh, lot more than 3 objects

[fresh zephyr]

Oh yeah

So at least 6 then

Interesting

[chrome fog]

Or contract the other starfarring species who occupy the city and allow them to assist us in developing the ships as well as basing any new works off of older blueprints. The H.E.L.M. proves we are capable of constructing larger transport ships

Why waste time chasing down some doomer dipshits who fled at our darkest hour because of bullshit they started?

[slim elk]

I did say human made ships lol
Dead Orbit has a full fleet at the ready

[hearty dagger]

The Cabal are capable of achieving at least near light speed travel right?\

[slim elk]

And probably already colonized somewhere

[chrome fog]

Yeah what the heck is stopping us from making new ones? Or using older blueprints?

Why rely on the Dead Orbit dipshits?

Like

They're not a monolith of inteligence on how to construct colony ships

[slim elk]

Something something, politics, giant Doomsday fleet wrecking the system. Constant War

[chrome fog]

Heck we have Failsafe

[chrome fog]

What the fuck does politics have to do with this, it's just building colony ships

You just build them

You can make them

[slim elk]

Exactly, Dead Orbit controlled all the ships and foundries building them before they left

[chrome fog]

Again, the HELM

[slim elk]

Gotta staff them again as all those workers abandoned the City

[chrome fog]

And our allies can assist us, there's no shame in learning from the Cabal and House Light

Like why chase down Dead Orbit

There's no reason to

[slim elk]

Their colony of course.

[hearty dagger]

Also whats not to say that some Ishtar complex or Warmind bunker somewhere doesn't have details regarding the construction of the Exodus programs.

[chrome fog]

FUck em they left us with the mess they made

[slim elk]

You want a headstart in expanding human space? Find where they went, and claim the colony.

[chrome fog]

Who cares about them they were made fun of even before they left

[chrome fog]

Or just make your own colony ships

[slim elk]

Boom, you already got a planetside base colonized

One thats been established over a year

[chrome fog]

Their whole deal is drifting in space to escape any threats because of their stupid paranoia, what makes you think they're even going to land on a planet?

[hearty dagger]

Also, like, at least Include the Eliksni in future colony plans, they've already joined the last city as proper citizens.

[fresh zephyr]

I mean, DO is probably long gone by this point since the Witness had Sol surrounded. I doubt they or their fleet actually made it very far, especially since there's been no info on them since.

[chrome fog]

Again, why do we even need Dead Orbit

We can do shit ourselves

We still have the various foundaries

[slim elk]

Resources of course.
We can either start from zero, or hijack the fleet they have

[chrome fog]

And the Cabal Empire

And House Light

And the remaining wrecks in the Cosmodrome

[hearty dagger]

I feel like Dead Orbit are more likely to be a problem for us in the future. They left for a reason.

[chrome fog]

And all the shit strewn across the Sol System

[slim elk]

...several century year old ships that have been salavged by Fallen?

..
You do know how rust works right?

[hearty dagger]

Like, don't forget Eliksni Splicers are so good with Machines its virtually magic.

[chrome fog]

Fuck we even got the Skiffs

Like seriously Dead Orbit is useless to us

Shit, we're about to venture beyond the Sol System to help House Light establish a new homeworld

Like

Tf do we need some edgelord doomer dipshits for

[hearty dagger]

Like there isn't an entity that I would have more faith in restoring old Cosmodrome Exodus Programs than Misraaks and whatever Splicers he's managed to train in the like 3ish years since Splicer.

[slim elk]

Steal the ships they made over several decades lol

[chrome fog]

They ran the moment a conflict they helped facilitate against the Eliksni refugees went sour due to actions their allied faction committed

[slim elk]

Again, its not so much the people but all the materials they already have.

[chrome fog]

Fuck them we have materials to make our own ships

[slim elk]

And that takes time to build them all.

[hearty dagger]

We're more than just humanity now. We're an alliance of Humans, Awoken, Cabal, and Eliksni.

[fresh zephyr]

I mean

[chrome fog]

Apparently not that much time considering how soon we're going to be assisting the Eliksni's pilgrimage

And a very good point, we're not alone

Eliksni and Cabal

[fresh zephyr]

Why waste the resources, assuming DO even survived escaping Sol, tracking them down to whatever solar system they traveled to and then starting a conflict with them to steal their ships?

[sweet mason]

do you guys think vog or ron has better lore

[chrome fog]

Both are neat

[hearty dagger]

Insisting that we have to do stuff humanity's way ignores the fact that all 3 of our allies have arguably better space fairing technology than us.

[chrome fog]

Not to mention Neomuna's improved nanotechnology

And their overall improved technology

[hearty dagger]

Right. Sure Human ships would be good, but why use one when you could build ships using technology from all 5 factions.

[chrome fog]

And to this, the Arcadia class ship we get runs pretty fine after a couple centuries or decades of abandonment

[hearty dagger]

And that one was also picked apart by fallen scavengers.

[chrome fog]

Like we're not short on manpower, resources, nor support

Dead Orbit is dead weight

[fresh zephyr]

Plus, DO's ships weren't new. They were salvage they repaired from across the system.

[chrome fog]

Let them fuck off to wherever they went

[fresh zephyr]

Their shit was probably in worse shape than the Fallen's ketches

[slim elk]

The first thing I said was we would have to rely on our new allies to get ships up and running lol

[chrome fog]

At least the Ketches were in relative recent use

[fresh zephyr]

Either way

[slim elk]

As seen here

[chrome fog]

Then why the contradiction when you told me humanity's ships

[fresh zephyr]

It's not like we need help regardless

If we want to do interstellar travel

[chrome fog]

What's the point of this comment then

[raw hazel]

Their whole shtick was always to turn tail and run. And honestly just let them, we’re better off without them.

[slim elk]

Exactly as I said, human made ships

[fresh zephyr]

We've got a big ass ship parked in our backyard they keep talking about us becoming the navigator of.

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/facepalm-really-stressed-mad-angry-gif-16109475

[slim elk]

Not a conglomeration of all species made ships

[chrome fog]

Then why this comment

This a contradiction

[slim elk]

The Cabal has this as a lore point of them smashing together tech without care for proper integration makes it highly vulnerable

[hearty dagger]

But a ship like that would almost certainly be better than any mono race ship.

[hearty dagger]

Mhm, but what happens if the Hand of an Eliksni Splicer guides that?

[slim elk]

Will work, but takes time for proper testing and retro fitting

[chrome fog]

So you want us to have a colony fleet built by human hands but also with us relying on the support of our allies but also without any contribution or influence from them in their construction

[slim elk]

The point I made is if you want an immediate fleet, then hijacking Dead Orbit is the best bet
Otherwise it'll take a few years to build up another fleet

[fresh zephyr]

Except it wouldn't be immediate

[hearty dagger]

Why retrofitting? We have the ability to make stuff from scratch.

[chrome fog]

But you'd need to make a fleet of your own either of smaller or equal size to seize and command their fleet

Which like

If we have the fleet already

Why bother with the deserters

We have our fleet

FUck em

[slim elk]

The merging of differing tech into one ship

[chrome fog]

There's no need to bother with Dead Orbit

[fresh zephyr]

It takes time to travel between systems, and DO has been gone for what? 2 or 3 years? So you'd have to catch up with them, and that's assuming they still exist, and then you'd have to start a conflict to actually steal their ships from them because they never actually belonged to the City. And then you'd have to bring the whole fleet back to Earth.

[chrome fog]

They're useless as we are fully capable of our own to construct colony fleets

[fresh zephyr]

That whole proccess would take years

Meanwhile, instead, we could just build new ships with the help of our allies

Who basically have insta-3D printing abilities

[hearty dagger]

A Splicer, a Cabal technician and an Awoken shipwright could easily make their tech work together in a week. Don't underestimate how damn good techfolk are in destiny's universe.

[chrome fog]

And it's happened already

The Pyramid sparrow has the lore tab features Niiks, Awoken mechanic, and a Cabal mechanic work on Pyramid tech to construct the sparrow

[raw hazel]

They were all a bunch of cowards and traitors who ran away after a failed powergrab.

The energy, time, and resources going after them and bringing them back would be better spent on rebuilding and strengthening ourselves up.

[fresh zephyr]

And again, that's making the massive assumption that the fleet even still exists.

[chrome fog]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/unified-theory

[hearty dagger]

Yea, the only reason we might ever need to deal with Dead Orbit is if Byf's White Whale ever decided to surface again.

[chrome fog]

Like, we can certainly depend on engineers from our allies

[chrome fog]

Byf hunting Concordat

[raw hazel]

And like, we also already have a massive joint fleet of Cabal, Eliksni, and Awoken ships.

[chrome fog]

We have our own Skiff. The Guardian has a personal Skiff.

And the H.E.L.M.

[hearty dagger]

I would really love to see a new Flagship of the alliance as a ship made of equal parts Humanity, Awoken, Cabal, and Eliksni technology.

[raw hazel]

And as the others have pointed out, together the Coalition can put together more ships better than anything the Emo Cult could ever scrap together.

[fresh zephyr]

Technically, there are still a bunch of Pyramids sitting around in Sol too, and we know all the Veiled Statues died when the Witness did

Sooo super advanced ships just sitting pretty for us to learn to use if we wanted

Or to salvage them for parts

[hearty dagger]

The black fleet strikes me as risky because there could still be disciples of the witness around.

[fresh zephyr]

Ehh. I'm pretty sure they are all dead, aside from Xivu if we consider her a Disciple still.

The Witness threw everything it had at us

[hearty dagger]

Also I'm not entirely sure we even could salvage them for parts.

[chrome fog]

I mean technically we kinda have

[fresh zephyr]

^

[hearty dagger]

We have?

[chrome fog]

Aforementioned sparrow

Also oopsie it was Ana

Not an Awoken

But in fairness both start with A

[fresh zephyr]

Speaking of Ana

We know Rasputin's gone, but I wonder if he left any archives behind containing his knowledge or anything like that.

We know Golden Age tech is basically miles ahead of anything anyone else, aside from Neomuna, has so it'd be interesting if we had access to it still

[hearty dagger]

Could there be Subminds still around?

[fresh zephyr]

Doubtful. We basically scraped the bottom of the barrel for surviving subminds to rebuild Rasputin back in Seraph

[hearty dagger]

Maybe other Exo like Felwinter?

Honestly, I'm most curious to get Io and Mercury back, I want to know what the Darkness did to them

[fresh zephyr]

Probably just what it did to Mars

Since the Witness was basically just trying to find the Veil

[hearty dagger]

But it didn't do that to Titan.

[fresh zephyr]

So lots of time rifts

Ahsa was on Titan, and it seemed preoccupied with her

[hearty dagger]

Then what about Mercury? The only thing on Mercury was the Infinite Forest, and it's not like that would be much help to the witness.

[fresh zephyr]

As far as we can tell, the Witness was basically just scanning the planets for anything that could give it clues about the Veil and it's location. Which was why it made the time rifts, presumably, so it could look back into the Collapse to get an idea of what happened since it was not actually present.

[hearty dagger]

But without Panopties the forest can't Simulate Paracausality, what does Mercury have that's of interest to the witness?

[fresh zephyr]

It used to be a habitable planet

With human colonies on it

It wasn't always just Vex

And the Witness had no idea what Savathun had done exactly so it was looking for any little clue

Like the Spire

[hearty dagger]

Then what about Io? Io was never habitable right? Did the Witness take it because of the tree?

[fresh zephyr]

Io had a bunch of Warmind bunkers

It didn't have widespread colonies that we know of since it was still in the process of being terraformed by the Traveler, but there were a lot of Warmind sites there for whatever reason

[hearty dagger]

Probably because of the underlying programing of Abhorrent Imperative.

[fresh zephyr]

Probably.

Or it might've just been standard procedure

Set up defenses before people start moving in

We don't know for sure.

[hearty dagger]

Wasn't weaponry super uncommon during the Golden Age?

[fresh zephyr]

For the average person, yeah

But Rasputin and his soldiers were heavily armed

You had all the warsats and the lasers they could use, then you had it's even bigger weaponry like anti-matter warheads and other stuff, and the Seraphs all had the best weapons and armor the Golden Age could make

[eager trout]

Destiny names are peak name:
The Traveler
The Witness
The Light
The Darkness
The Guardian
The Tower
The Fallen
The Cabal
The Vex
The Hive
The Speaker
The Awoken
The Vanguard
The Hidden
The Nine

[hearty dagger]

I mean, to be fair, the Cabal do refer to themselves as just "Cabal" from time to time, and Fallen isn't actually what the race is called (I do get the joke)

[fresh zephyr]

Bungie liked the whole concept of titles I guess.

[remote sky]

So I guess exos have lungs? Like how tf does cayde play the harmonica

[fast tapir]

electric harmonica

obviously

[empty fern]

Electric lungs

[hearty dagger]

Prolly some kind of fan.

[empty fern]

Nah I think it’s advanced enough to simulate breathing

[remote sky]

And yes I'm vaguely asking someone to explain just what exos required to delay that uh
Psychosis thing

[hearty dagger]

The Exos would need a way to simulate breathing otherwise they'd undergo psychosis.

[empty fern]

Human qualities and activities?

[remote sky]

Well yeh but

Just what exactly?

Hunger? Breathing?

[hearty dagger]

Basically any small thing that humans do.

[empty fern]

Breathing, eating, Elsie’s camp has a toilet so that’s inferred?

[hearty dagger]

Breathing, Eating, Sleeping, they don't have to do it, but having the ability staves off the Psychosis.

[fresh zephyr]

Bungie has said they are anatomically correct in all aspects for the most part

[remote sky]

whadafuq

[empty fern]

You heard me

[eager trout]

Clovis Bray after trying to eliminate the "human" factor from humans but ending up having to keep it anyways:

[remote sky]

I mean I guess waste disposal would be required regardless but damn

[fast tapir]

how the hell could cayde taste the ramen

[eager trout]

[remote sky]

Man wants to play god so bad but it just don't work

[remote sky]

Well if you're eating and can't taste it, presumably, you don't exactly feel like you're eating

[empty fern]

Do you want to check for yourself?

[remote sky]

Especially if you do remember how it should taste but can't taste it anymore

I'd freak out, especially after

[fresh zephyr]

Elsie's camp is set up in a golden age building, so that implication isn't really there.

[empty fern]

I see

[remote sky]

The little fuckin tent?

[empty fern]

The thing Zavala catches us in

[remote sky]

I mean I guess considering she's a time traveler

[remote sky]

Yeah I jus thought it was a super advanced tent

All loaded with materials and shit

Foldable car

[eager trout]

It isn't?

[empty fern]

It could be

[remote sky]

Doesn't it have the poles and cloth n stuff?

I don't remember much, got shit and easily influenced memory

[empty fern]

Go check

[fresh zephyr]

The roof is cloth, presumably because it lost it at some point, but the building itself is a building

It's got sliding glass doors and everything

[remote sky]

BUT THE FINAL SHAPE!!!

[remote sky]

Fair point

Wait wtf is "the great disaster"

[fresh zephyr]

Basically, when the City realized the Hive were on the Moon

They decided to send an army of Guardians to clear them out

But they didn't realize the threat the Hive posed, and didn't know about Crota

So when they invaded the Moon, the Hive slaughtered them by the thousands, with Crota himself killing a lot of that number personally.

Thus the 'Great Disaster'.

[eager trout]

That name is so ambiguous it could refer to anything

[remote sky]

Genuinely