📚lore-discussion

[analog torrent]

I just wish I could tell him I shouldn't have done it.
Crow can tell him but that doesn't mean Cayde will stick around

[gentle geyser]

Cayde is “permanently” back

He most likely is remaining in the traveler permanently

He probably can’t leave it

[trim grotto]

...

[pseudo karma]

[trim grotto]

i honestly don't know what you were trying to say with that

[pseudo karma]

Saying bungie prob wants everyone to think that's in the traveler but it isn't

[raw hazel]

Huh?

[trim grotto]

don't worry about it haha

[raw hazel]

[exotic cloak]

It means that it is most likely that Cayde will not leave the Traveler.

And that was supposed to be confirmed? That he would be the merchant

I don't remember If that was actual confirmation about he being the merchant and not being able to leave or some rumour someone sold me

[sharp osprey]

so certain parts of the cabal and eliksni are allies now, what's the possibility of some Hive becoming friendly as well?

[dim minnow]

no

[sharp osprey]

why not

[dim minnow]

because they are the Hive

their history has shaped them into something truly alien to us

for instance, love and war are one in the same to them

the way they think, their morality

[sharp osprey]

it just seemed to me like that was the way the story was going cuz they have lightbearers now

[dim minnow]

the powers given by Light and Dark are tools

not inherently good nor bad

[sharp osprey]

yes, but there's common ground there yknow

idk

[dim minnow]

they are entirely different and often against our own sets of ideals

[sharp osprey]

i wonder how the hive story is gonna resolve itself then

[dim minnow]

a slow and painful decline

unless they change things up majorly

Xivu and Savathun are their only major players

[sharp osprey]

have there been any eliksni or cabal rezzed by a ghost yet?

[dim minnow]

and Xivu is the one who is actively against us

[dim minnow]

no

[trim grotto]

it wasn't about that

[exotic cloak]

Damn

[safe galleon]

how long ago was rhulk trapped in savvy's throne world by the time we discover him? is him being there the reason the guardians didn't seem to know about him?

[velvet flax]

Rhulk was trapped after Savathun returned to her Throne World after being risen as a Lightbearer so sometime between the Exorcism and Witch Queen launch.

And we didn't know about him because at that point as far as I'm aware there were no records pointing to his existence. We had only just started to get evidence of a Voice In the Darkness (later revealed as The Witness), let alone Disciples of it.

[fickle torrent]

why do the disciples and darkness bosses burst into branches when they die?

[trim grotto]

Good question!
We don't know.

What we do know is that they've been empowered by the Witness, suggesting that this is a side effect or result of that. That's about it.

[ember storm]

Imagine senator armstrong

[vast glen]

now what do i do

[trim grotto]

you win the game

[exotic cloak]

Kill Rhulk solo flawless with behemoth and blue weapons

100 times

[empty fern]

If you can do it 1 time you can do it 100

[chrome fog]

Magically find an og broken traveler's chosen and kill every boss

[empty fern]

Now that’s a challenge

[torn iris]

what is the story of warlords ruin dungeon

[ember storm]

old iron lord befriended an ahamkara, then the house of kings killed them, so the ahamkara cursed them which led them to become scorn, and then Shaxx slew the ahamkara as part of the great hunt

fast forward to now Fikrul sent some of his scorn over to the invested castle to try enlisting them, so we go in and clear them all out and let the ahamkara rest in peace

[chrome fog]

The Ahamkara was dead prior to that, the Warlord found the ahamkara as a pile of bones

But yes it was one of Shaxx's kills

[jagged badge]

It was Shaxx who directed Naeem to the castle in the first place right?

[ornate bough]

What are ahamkaras

[jagged badge]

She followed the whispers through the storm and rubble. Ran her fingers over scars in the stone. This was the place the old warrior had told her to go, and so she pressed deeper into the keep, until the whispers turned to words, and the bones of a great beast laid at rest before her eyes.

[jagged badge]

Wish dragons!

They are creatures of paracausal power who can shape shift

They feed off of desire but more specifically they feast on the gulf between Reality-As-Is and Reality-As-Desired

[ornate bough]

I’ll pretend to understand what that means

[jagged badge]

So when they grant wishes, there’s always generally a monkey’s paw that works against the wisher

And the Ahamkara feeds from this

[ornate bough]

Oh

[jagged badge]

Taranis is one Ahamkara who sought to be 100% benevolent with his wishes

He feasted less because of it

[chrome fog]

We kill one in the Last Wish raid, she name Riven and also was the one behind the orchestration behind Uldren’s actions in Forsaken, which was so that he could set her free

Which, he kind of failed to do, but also succeeded at because Petra opened the Dreaming City for Guardians to enter - was actually announced by someone else in the Tower - and then a raid team was rallied together to kill Riven

Our overwhelming desire for her death allowed her to enact the curse over the Dreaming City - which was concocted by Savathun and maintained by Sav’s daughter in believe? Or Xivu’s - that makes it so that the Dreaming City is stuck in a perpetual 3 week cycle

[wheat flower]

Sav's daughter

[wheat flower]

Savathun's brood might be different iirc

They folllow imbaru no?

Or is that exclusive to sav alone?

[chrome fog]

Sav alone

[ember storm]

they don’t follow sword logic at all

they’re heretics

I mean sure they have the basic thrall > acolyte > knight/wizard structure but that’s more in actual position terms

there’s no providing tribute to any gods

everyone gets their fair share of light to feed their worm

[exotic cloak]

And they pretty much can resurrect so that about dead stay dead well...

[jagged badge]

Most of the Lucent Brood aren’t Lightbearers

[exotic cloak]

I know

[chrome fog]

So they don’t come back save for as a Lightbearer; they still fill out their number with broods but they’re coming back from nothing

[cinder wharf]

Do y'all think the speaker should have warned everyone and ovided his death or do you think it wouldn't make sense for the lore if said about the cabal?

[jagged badge]

Why would the Speaker have known about the Red Legion?

[cinder wharf]

Did he not speak to the traveler through Ghana though?

Ghaul*

[jagged badge]

The Speaker has never spoken to the Traveler

Nor has it spoken to him

The Speaker has been able to interpret dreams from the Traveler

Also worth mentioning that the Traveler wouldn’t have had precognition of the Red War either

Unless I’ve missed something

[modern lodge]

Who is shaxx married to btw I just realised after playing for 5 odd years that it says husband in his titles

[jagged badge]

Anyone who earned The Vow bow from Crimson Days

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-vow

[modern lodge]

Also I got more questions

Guardians with scars and stuff do they like tell their ghost to leave them?

[jagged badge]

It’s suggested that some injuries can apparently remain despite even a full rez

I believe

Not sure exactly how that works

And the only example at the top of my head is a comedic one about Shaxx having a limp from Ikora kicking his ass in the Crucible

[spiral crane]

whats the lore behind shaw han

why is he so incompetent

[gentle geyser]

Hunter

[chrome fog]

He’s actually rad unfortunately, like he is actually really cool in the lore

[trim grotto]

Do the Navota Grandmaster Nightfall first

[jagged badge]

Speaking of Shaw though

Can we even say for certain he participated in the Great Ahamkara Hunt anymore?

I guess his boots are still evidence

But his arms actually aren’t

[trim grotto]

No, we cannot

For all we know he found his boots in the dumpster of Lord Shaxx, who got annoyed that the Reefborn keep sending him Hunter armour instead of Titan armour.

[chrome fog]

Like ngl he has baller lines in these
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/iii-cold-forging
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-swarm

[torn schooner]

Why does a tormentor turn into a heap of roots when he dies

[warm gazelle]

Saladin asks at the end of PsiOps Battleground: Cosmodrome why the Traveler resurrects bad people and leaves good people to rot.

It's just an assumption that who the person was before they are resurrected influences who they are post-lightbearing, right? Or is that definitively known.

[gentle geyser]

Something something darkness

[empty fern]

We don’t know
Someone’s personal theory says it’s cause it’s full all the witness technology and is broken when they die so they just, springs?

[chrome fog]

Zavala and Crow can attest to the similarities between pre- and post-resurrection Lightbearers

[craggy agate]

this is probably super obvious and i like can’t ascertain for shit but. why are the vex in riven’s lair exactly?

i know it’s the sol divisive and that kinda clears it up but idk would be nice for it to get spoon fed to me i guess lmao

[dim minnow]

trying to remember the exact reasons

[craggy agate]

i will patiently await the exact reasons then

[gentle geyser]

The vex rolling up whenever bungy requires an enemy faction without giving a super in depth lore reason

[craggy agate]

hey to be fair

they are cool as hell

i’ll take more vex

[chrome fog]

Their dealer for Paracausality, the Witness, ordered them to plus the eggs would be useful in further attempts in analyzing Paracausality, especially if they can get one of their simulations to wish for it

And yes these simulations are powerful enough to be their own persons yet trapped within the Vex Consciousness, Ishtar Collective actually got its start researching the Vex and discovering 227 simulated copies of the three founders, all of whom were emancipated to the explore and gather more info on the Vex I think

[craggy agate]

hm very interesting, i forgot how good the simulations are

that is very neat thank you for sating the curiosity

[trim grotto]

I'm sure. Do you, uh, have a question about its lore?

[silent anvil]

Ngl I wrote this in the wrong channel my fault

[trim grotto]

Fair enough. But hey, fun fact! Warlord Shaxx used it while retaking the Wall during Twilight Gap!

[silent anvil]

No wonder that shit got banned this was a Coughing baby vs a hydrogen bomb situation 💀

[final geyser]

do we have any idea who the voice in the traveler is in the newest TFS trailer

a friend of mine was saying it might be maya sundaresh, since her consciousness should still be around and kicking in the veil, but i personally don't think so

[gentle geyser]

Its most likely

The traveler

[final geyser]

i honestly don't think so

it feels odd to me that they'd personify the traveler when they brought back cayde as a guide

[gentle geyser]

There really aren’t many options because it clearly knows whats going on and isn’t a known voice

[gentle geyser]

Cayde is back as a combination of wish magic and the traveler

Not just the traveler

[final geyser]

wish magic?

wait, am i missing something

[dim minnow]

if it's speaking in lore entries then it probably is the Traveler

[final geyser]

i haven't seen the end of wish

imma be real here it'd be a tad dissapointing if its just the traveler

imo

[dim minnow]

a lore entry for an item from this season suggests that Uldren made an unintentional wish

[gentle geyser]

We hear an unknown voice directly talking to the guardian in the gameplay trailer

[dim minnow]

no, I mean it is literally speaking in lore entries

[gentle geyser]

Ah

[dim minnow]

like the stuff it says are quotes from the lore

[final geyser]

i wonder if cayde is back back then

[dim minnow]

it did just that in the Forsaken middle tree mission

[gentle geyser]

He isn’t

[final geyser]

tbf i'm expecting him to be the TFS vendor

[gentle geyser]

Hes most likely going to be restricted to being in the pale heart exclusively

Best bet is he passes the vanguard position to crow

[trim grotto]

Agreed

[trim grotto]

And agreed on both of those points too

[final geyser]

which'd be wierd cuz crow is, effectively, already the rightful vanguard

ALSO CROW IN A MAIN STORY EXPANSION LETS FUCKING GOOOOOO

but yeah i do think that's what'll happen

[trim grotto]

While I don't consider the Dare to be valid in this scenario (or virtually any, Cayde made a dumb one), Crow has already been organising Hunters and making himself valuable.

He's earning the position when everyone else is actively avoiding it.

[final geyser]

tbf i don't think crow would mind being vanguard

he's had so much going on in his life

i imagine he wants some peace

[trim grotto]

Perhaps, yes.

[gentle geyser]

Mfs coming back at final shape after leaving from forsaken

[final geyser]

also who's the voice that speaks directly after crow at the start of the trailer

[exotic cloak]

Poetic

[gentle geyser]

?

Have to go back to the trailer one sec

[final geyser]

the delay was 1000% worth it

im so pumped for tfs

[gentle geyser]

There isn’t one

No one speaks after crow until the unknown voice bit

[final geyser]

did we watch the same trailer

"We need to go!" - Crow
"Keep moving!" - ??

[gentle geyser]

Unless you watched some altered foreign trailer it shouldn’t be different

[final geyser]

first 5 seconds

[gentle geyser]

Thats not even crow

[analog thunder]

was savathuns hive worm thing able to tell the future?

[final geyser]

oh is it not crow

it sounds like him

[gentle geyser]

Thats just trailer talk for cinematic purposes

[next bobcat]

Kinda sorta not really

[gentle geyser]

Thats all it is

[trim grotto]

The future? Not with any kind of magic foresight, no, just the cunning that she had, too.

[next bobcat]

Yeah that

[trim grotto]

What do you refer to specifically?

[next bobcat]

I presume at the end of the parasitic pilgrimage Mission

[final geyser]

also the ignition snap in that trailer is so crispy omg

[analog thunder]

i remember during the parasite quest where mara sov saw the future from the hive worm as per the agreement they had and mara bceoming nihilisting because of the outcome

[next bobcat]

Called it

[craggy agate]

hello friends question, i feel like i remember hearing somewhere something about ogres being, like, constantly in pain? but i don't know if i'm just making that up or conflating it with another game if anyone knows anything like that thanks

[dim minnow]

we know the rituals that transform them are torturous

[trim grotto]

Toland: When a god's Will is met with force, its Might will be unleashed in the form of those raging beasts we call the ogre—monsters bred of pain, tormented by the Light, nothing but hatred for all who bring its suffering forth.
Charged with Hive sorcery, Ogres are abominations of flesh and rage, unleashed from the deepest Hive tunnels as engines of destruction. Apocryphal lore suggests that Ogres undergo terrible transformations as they grow - agonizing rituals that gift them with might and cunning.

[craggy agate]

ok thank you for clearing it up chat

[exotic cloak]

They are not in constant, they are the pain

[craggy agate]

this is also true and lore accurate

[trim grotto]

anywho i'm gonna watch a movie
if you want me ping me like thrice or i won't hear it

[raw hazel]

@trim grotto
@trim grotto
@trim grotto

[trim grotto]

[raw hazel]

stinky

that is all

[trim grotto]

[exotic cloak]

[ruby pivot]

If pristmatic class is going out soon, does it mean canonically speaking guardians can make a stain-glass construct like super?

[jagged badge]

No

[ruby pivot]

wait? can we even make a construct of lego light too?

[jagged badge]

Prismatic doesn’t really have its own abilities. It’s the mixture of Light and Dark in concert

[ruby pivot]

awww

[jagged badge]

The supers will be selections of the Light and Dark supers

[ruby pivot]

i mean yeah if we say lore wise not gameplay wise, some guardian who is bored enough to create a stain glass window as their super

[shadow crypt]

Am I wrong to say that Guardians and Green Lanterns are similar in a way?

[trim grotto]

i... don't think we can say

[trim grotto]

Uh yeah I suppose on a surface level

[ruby pivot]

then its possible to make a lego with spikes scattered on the floor as super

[shadow crypt]

What is the Tree of Silver Wings?

[ruby pivot]

ooh if i remember correctly its like something that the traveler left on a location where it terraformed a planet, thats all i remember

@trim grotto probably can help?

[jagged badge]

No

[trim grotto]

uh yeah hold on

[ruby pivot]

please correct me, i dont have the season pass at that time to understand what is the tree all i know its connected to the traveler

[ember storm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbqYPBOJ7Lk

[ember storm]

I’m on mobile I can’t open these

[trim grotto]

shame

[ember storm]

you’ll have to transcribe them for me

[shadow crypt]

If ur on an iphone save it to notes

[trim grotto]

well you could download them and open them with an app

[shadow crypt]

It works for me

[jagged badge]

Like WhatsApp

[trim grotto]

i suppose

[modern lodge]

Mael sum up the tree in the witnesses pyramid without the audio file

Like in a sentence

[trim grotto]

looks like tree of silver wings, but might not be, we don't know enough to say

[modern lodge]

Trueeee

It's also fucking huge right

[trim grotto]

ye

[eager trout]

Does the Witness have the Veil?

[velvet flax]

No

The Veil is currently in Veil Containment in Neomuna

[velvet flax]

The Precursors (Witness origin species) possessed The Veil and used its power to transform into The Witness. Fast forward to the First Collapse... The Witness most likely gave The Veil to Nezarec for safekeeping however Nezarec was betrayed and killed in secret by Savathun who also stole The Veil and hid it on Neptune.

When the Exodus Indigo crashed on Neptune by following a Vex signal created by the Augurmind, Soteria, they discovered The Veil and created Neomuna around it.

[ember storm]

they’re called Precursors?

officially?

[velvet flax]

Officially idk, ive seen a lot of people use that term though. I think Mael has used it

[ember storm]

I think it’s lame an unoriginal seeing as there’s already a faction called that

[velvet flax]

Tbf its not an actual species name like Lubraean or Krill or Ahslid

We could get one in The Final Shape

[empty fern]

Just in case https://youtu.be/Z0CKckjryVI?si=-dk-BJtT4ws_hpXk

Oh it doesn’t say,

BUT

it does make me question, what exactly earned the name “The Witness”

[chrome fog]

They "witnessed" the truth of reality. Which is to say it's their edgy oc self-insert name after not getting what they wanted

[empty fern]

I see

Neat

[eager trout]

Wait, didn't the Witness need the Veil to enter the Traveler?

[jagged badge]

Yes

That’s the whole point of what happened at the end of Lightfall

[velvet flax]

Yep what Eris said. Though I'll just add that it didn't physically need to be there. It needed a connection of Light to interface with the Veil (like the Radial Mast or our Ghost) to allow it to make the connection.

[ember storm]

their first strategy was bringing the veil to the traveler, they lost it, so then they tried a remote link between the two

[eager trout]

How do you simply "lose" the Veil???

[ember storm]

Nezarec was sent to lead the charge on humanity and bring the veil

Savathun killed him and hid it away

she left it on Neptune for the Ishtar colony to find and it was left undetectable from the outside world

[eager trout]

So how is the Witness using it now?

[jagged badge]

It isn’t

It made the portal and then it went through the portal

It doesn’t still need it to make a portal because the portal is already there

[chrome fog]

The Lightfall campaign elaborates on how this happened

As in, you play the events that lead to it making that connection between the Traveler and the Veil

[eager trout]

How?

And what was the point of the entire Lightfall campaign if the Witness was still able to enter the Traveler?

[ember storm]

I mean

what’s the point of literally anything with a sequel

because the story isn’t properly resolved?

Ever since FS was announced bungie was fairly clear that Lightfall wouldn’t be conclusive and would essentially directly lead into it

[eager trout]

Then why was the Witness trying to get the Veil in the first place?

[ember storm]

for the same reason as always

difference is now that the traveler is directly fighting back the witness had to restraint it

beforehand the traveler was just running away so it wasn’t complicated

at the start, the witness had the veil in its possession

the first time a link was attempted, the traveler ran away, so the witness pursued

[jagged badge]

To open the portal…

[ember storm]

after millions of years of a changing universe, circumstances changed and the witness was looking at an inactive traveler and no clue of where the veil was

[jagged badge]

Which it did

And then it went through it

[ember storm]

the events of the past 8 years have all been leading to its plan in LF

[jagged badge]

What are you not understanding here?

[ember storm]

confirm the traveler is still alive, then locate the veil, and complete the link

[jagged badge]

The point is we tried to stop it but we failed. We lost

[ember storm]

the witness could never do it whenever it wanted to

and with the traveler fighting back, things got even more complicated

that’s why Calus was enlisted

he had a highly expendable army and (presumably) brought advanced genetic engineering to the table

so while the witness kept the traveler subdued, Calus went to find the veil

nothing more to it

[chrome fog]

To summarize:

• The Precursors (Witness species) developed their society under the Traveler/Gardener
• They asked it what the purpose of existence was and received no answer, drawing their ire
• They then sought the Veil and discovered the power of Darkness by studying it
• They then tried to bring the Veil to the Traveler to strength the connection between the two and open the Portal, but the Traveler ran away before that was possible
• Ad Infinitum for untold millennia
• The Traveler makes a last stand in our solar system with humanity
• The Witness entrusts the safekeeping of the Veil with Nezarec as it carries out its assault and contributes to the Collapse
• Savathun kills Nezarec and sneaks the Veil away on Neptune, with the plan for that portion of humanity that escaped onto the planet to hide themselves and by proxy the Veil due to it being within their immediate vicinity
• The Traveler exerts herself trying to hold back the Witness' forces but then falls into inactivity, its last act being the creation of Ghosts
• Fast Forward to Lightfall, we finally find out the Veil is on Neptune, but then so does the Witness via coercing Eramis to sneak into the Spire of the Watcher.
• Que the entirety of the Lightfall campaign and we had believed that we had succeeded in preventing the establishment of any connection the Witness could make between the Traveler and the Veil, but we forget that the Witness can hijack our Ghost, which it does and uses Ghost to establish that connection, thus opening the Portal

[ember storm]

it’s cue

[eager trout]

Wait, when did Eramis go into the Spire? Before she died?

[chrome fog]

She hasn't died yet

[empty fern]

She leaves messages as collectibles in there

[chrome fog]

She went into the Spire of the Watcher, the one with Soteria, during Season of the Seraph; she had been encased in a Stasis prison since the end of the Beyond Light campaign, only being released in that season to carry out the Witness' plans

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-season-of-the-seraph-the-witness-darkness-eramis-gif-27560452

[chrome fog]

Season of the Seraph being the season where we went into Rasputin's submind locations to gather them in order to form Rasputin after he had been damaged by the Pyramid Ships' retaliation against his attack in Arrivals

[eager trout]

Wait, she what- you're telling me there's part of the main story locked behind seasonal content?

[chrome fog]

I mean. All seasonal storylines contribute in some way to the progression of the main story. And you can still play the Spire dungeon

[eager trout]

Where's the Spire?

[chrome fog]

Mars

[eager trout]

Oh, that

[chrome fog]

Yeah. The Seraph dungeon.

[empty fern]

Warmind dungeon with cowboy armor

[eager trout]

Failsafe's Spanish voice captures her attitude better, but her English voice is cuter

[empty fern]

Cool

[eager trout]

Btw, why did Ghost have more attitude in the earlier Destiny 2?

[chrome fog]

Money

And also Activision was really trying to get that MCU quipy vibe

[jagged badge]

I don’t know what you mean

[chrome fog]

To which, it's still there in some places, just that we've had a lot of more pressing concerns as of late

[jagged badge]

https://youtu.be/c8QkXPllF20?si=m_5s1Eq9qKajMHwF

[chrome fog]

Take for example when he complains about us handling volatiles substances during Lightfall and Rohan asks if it's a common thing

[jagged badge]

https://youtu.be/ltVSDdLOonU?si=xOTkeWjiVBADOMTu

“Uh-huh…okay then”

That is a sassy Ghost

[devout vine]

I think it would've been really cool to customize the voice of ghost

Cuz Nolan North ain't it

[jagged badge]

I like Nolan North personally

But also, Ghost is a character of his own, and it’d be way more expensive to hire multiple voice actors for all of Ghost’s dialogue

[devout vine]

They did my boy Peter Dinklage Dirty!!😭😭😭

[jagged badge]

Hell, that’s most the reason Ghost talks for us most the time

Because it’s easier getting the one VA to record it than several

[jagged badge]

With poor direction that made Ghost sound lifeless yeah

[exotic cloak]

He still have, damn he is the only one with attitude of the two us

Bro doing all the talking

[chrome fog]

It was not it chief ngl

[exotic cloak]

In Spanish they also had choose the voice of the actor that gave him the voice in game of thrones

He is better than him but damn still sounds bad

New ghost in Spanish in English is just better

[eager trout]

Who is Ana Bray?

[jagged badge]

A prodigious Hunter who in her past life was one of the granddaughters of Clovis Bray I

Ana had a name badge on her when she was resurrected, so she was able to find out her past name and research her old life, despite the rules against doing so

She faked her death in Twilight Gap in order to continue her journey of discovery and research

We met her in Warmind and helped her with Rasputin stuff

[eager trout]

Then who is Elsie Bray?

(Like, in the family tree)

[jagged badge]

Ana’s half sister

Alton, Elsie, Willa and Ana are all siblings, only Ana has a different mother due to Clovis II’s infidelity

Interestingly, they actually raised Ana telling her she was adopted instead

[eager trout]

Wait, why is there more than one Clovis?

[jagged badge]

They hoped she’d avoid the Bray curse of being a shitbag that way

[jagged badge]

Because Clovis named his son Clovis

Clovis, probably: mmm what a devilishly good name. Only the best people are named Clovis

[chrome fog]

Where's that family tree

We have the Hive Court family tree but we've lost the Bray Family Tree in the wipe...

[jagged badge]

We haven’t

[rich veldt]

OH REALLY:

Clovis Bray, father of Clovis Bray II, grandfather of Willa Bray, Alton Bray, Elsie Bray and (illegitimate) Ana Bray, founder of Clovis Bray, along with its subsidiaries, Braytech, Bray Exoscience, and Bray Futurescape.

[eager trout]

Wdym founder of Clovis Bray???

[jagged badge]

His company is called Clovis Bray

In case it wasn’t obvious yet, Clovis Bray is a massive fucking egotist

[rich veldt]

have you considered the guy who named his son after himself and wanted to become a god among man might just name his company after himself

[eager trout]

No

[devout vine]

https://tenor.com/view/mike-tyson-yes-smile-glasses-smiling-gif-2265373269127069515

Yeth it was

[chrome fog]

An infographic like the one you made; I swear there was one before

[chrome fog]

It really wasn't, he could've done better

[rich veldt]

idk bout no infographics i only had a text version

[devout vine]

He didn't get a chance to.

[chrome fog]

Eehhhh

[devout vine]

Just saying...if you've seen Peter Dinklage's previous acting work, you'd agree as well

[chrome fog]

His voice acting could use some work

[raw hazel]

Just because you're good at screen acting or theater, doesn't necessarily mean or translate into good voice acting.

[chrome fog]

Which it seems he's taken to improving considering he'd done voice work for Might Eagle in the Angry Birds movies and a villain in an Ice Age movie

[devout vine]

Doesn't mean someone is eternally incapable of that skill...
He could continue honing his skills which he has done in the past

[chrome fog]

Yeah but still remains that just because he's an acclaimed stage/screen actor does not mean his voice acting was good. Which it wasn't. Compared to Ghost now

[raw hazel]

Yeah. And what's done is done. We may wish for things to be different but it doesn't change the reality of the situation.

As much as I did have a small softspot for Dinklebot, Nolan's been the voice for Ghost for some 9+ years. I personally can't imagine Ghost having a different one.

[devout vine]

And sagira?

[raw hazel]

That's an entirely different character.

[chrome fog]

There have been enough va changes across the board and people have consistently complained, but it's never a persistent issue

Anyways. Lore.

[raw hazel]

Reminds me I just need to read the Collector's Edition lore now

I finished up all the seasonal story the other day

[devout vine]

Very well...
Although I still believe Dinklebot is goated....

the true essence of the final shape accounted by the witness and his disciples...discuss

[chrome fog]

Haven't gotten too deep into entelechy

[raw hazel]

I'll probably set aside a day next week to read them

[chrome fog]

Final Shape is wholly dependent on the individual in question; in general, it is how one envisions the universe should be

As for the Witness, that seems to be a universe that is defined by all life dedicated to proving whom is the strongest and to be the last one at the end of the universe

[devout vine]

But there is a definitive vision of the True final shape.
Question is...is it something completely predictable, or is it elements of how the disciples saw it too?

[chrome fog]

Nnnnnooooo it is wholly dependent on the person

[devout vine]

Also....
Anyone read the unveiling lore book?

[chrome fog]

Like. Calus had a Final Shape, and it was a universe dedicated to his pleasure

As well as whomever he saw fit to take part in his splendor

As was highlighted in Chronicon

And as unreliable as Unveiling is, being sourced from the Witness, it presents us the "Winnower" figure, whom we can assume to be a representation of its aspirational ideals - though not its current and true ideals - which is what I presented already

[devout vine]

But the final shape adds aspects of the light and dark....
Calus only dabbled in the darkness.

Plus he's just like Rhulk and Nezarec, all had their own versions of what they believed the witness's final shape was...
Or at least rhulk did more than the other two

[jagged badge]

Yes

[devout vine]

Perhaps the book is some kind of metaphor...
Or an analogy of a story being told?

[chrome fog]

The expansion includes a mixing of Light and Darkness aspects

[chrome fog]

Yes a metaphor for the origins of the current Destiny universe, which is why we can't rely on it alone for citations because it comes from a biased source who is quite literally against us, we need to corroborate whatever claims it makes with outside sources

[chrome fog]

Not only does this fit into the greater Bungie metaphorical narrative that has echoed through from Pathways into Darkness, the original Marathon series, and even Halo, this same rhetoric is shared by the Winnower in Unveiling, in which it bets on a single winner living to the end of the Flower Games as opposed to the Gardener's wager that the "flowers" (which is to say individual beings) will collaborate together to see all to the end of the Flower Game

[chrome fog]

And we get a look at Calus' Final Shape in the lore book Chronicon
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-the-chronicon

[raw hazel]

Presumeably we find out more come TFS. Admittedly I was a bit taken aback with the Witness reveal back in Deep to the point it left me a bit soured, but I've seen at least taken a little to it.
Mostly just waiting and seeing.

[chrome fog]

Prior to the Deep revelation I had also been told Unveiling was not wholly true, but I became much more interested in how much the lorebook is Witness fanfic and how much is literal truth that it has seen

Though that does mean that we have lost any real "origin" for the Destiny universe

[devout vine]

It's a retcon from what I've heard...but doesn't seem very believable.
I'd say a concept origin story is more accurate

It's a story that was pitched but probably wasn't put through...

Still, it's cool that it's a lore book

[chrome fog]

Well I mean we should've expected as much because we were literally getting it from the Pyramids, which are under the Witness' control

[devout vine]

Confuses the hell out of everything

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/huh-huhh-huh-cat-huh-meme-hh-gif-5169252229080281629

It...it is put... through

It's in the game

What the hell does that even mean

[devout vine]

I know, but is it true?

[chrome fog]

No????

[devout vine]

Exactly....
Just a lore book with no definitive idea about what it may be except that it adds speculation to the origin of the destiny universe.

[chrome fog]

Like, this is a lorebook that is coming from the shadowy mimic of ourselves who hijacked our Ghost and whose ships took away our planets, do we still think it's trustworthy when the source literally is working on our downfall??

[devout vine]

The whole Gardener and Winnower interaction is pretty cool....
But we already know what the witness is about

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/joe-gif-20430815

[devout vine]

https://tenor.com/view/yeahscience-breakingbad-jesse-pinkman-aaron-paul-gif-5567123

Come on Mr White!

[chrome fog]

No

[chrome fog]

The Gardener name is used for the Traveler outside of Unveiling; the point of the lorebook is that it's propaganda that unveils the true motivations behind the Witness and the Traveler via the juxtaposition of the Gardener and Winnower's values

The Martian Missives are more useless than Unveiling

Unveiling is propaganda that informs us on what the enemy believes in

While Martian Missives are just Savathun giving us straight up lies just to show that she could

Just like her song that had been a leitmotif in the title screen theme since Shadowkeep

[devout vine]

That's what I mean....
It's supposed to be misleading anyway, just propaganda made by the witness as you've said.

[chrome fog]

You are ignoring the second half

[devout vine]

Explain for me please

[empty fern]

Martian missives is a lie

Unveil is kinda truth

[chrome fog]

At the time of Unveiling's release to us during Season of Arrivals, we had been questioning the true intentions of the Traveler since it had been silent for forever, and we had no concept of the true nature of our enemy - the Voice in the Darkness, whom we eventually learned to be the Witness - at that point.

Which is where the opening cutscene and the slow release of Unveiling to us comes in; this is our first actual contact with it and it decided to take our shape in order to convince us that it is our "Salvation", then that is proceeded by the Unveiling lorebook presenting the Gardener and Winnower, of which the Gardener is an obvious parallel to the Traveler (as some actions of the Traveler were attributed to the Gardener). It's also important to note that in the lorebook that the Gardener is, supposedly, in the wrong for her naive belief in collaborative improvement, whilst the Winnower is in the right for wanting things to continue down their "natural" path, in which strife is inevitable and there will always only be one "Flower" to win out in the end, one flower that survives til the end of the universe. As poorly (or as great, considering how many edgy bastards want to say the Witness is justified because "OOooOOO iT rEalIzeD lIfE iS mEaNiNgLesS") as Unveiling has served as propaganda for the Witness' cause, it

informs us

of what is motivating the Traveler as well as what is motivating the Witness

This being important when characters in-game and players in-real-life take the Traveler's silence as neglect when she has been doing her best to guide us without wholly taking charge and railroading our efforts and progress

And also the aforementioned edgelords who just learned what nihilism is and think that because there is no inherent meaning to existence that they can be as "dark and edgy as they wanna be because why do the rule matters, nothing matters in the end"

When no, actually, the ultimate conclusion from nihilism is that we make our own meaning of life, that it's up to us to become the most idealized version of ourselves - that we "Make our Own Fate"

[exotic cloak]

I kinda hate that, because I mean Witness is right but that's the point, there's no meaning because you make the meaning

Witness wanting to remake the entire universe is basically just a kid

I cant enjoy not having a reason to exist so no one would!

[chrome fog]

That's the point, its a giant toddler

Baby's Nihilism

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/baby-eat-dark-souls-baby-gif-14586480

Th final shape

[shadow warren]

Consume

[chrome fog]

And supposedly Entelechy reveals that the Witness' goals are not wholly agreed upon by the Witness species, it is only a select few who lead their civilization who pushed for the Witness ritual

[exotic cloak]

The Final Shape is the friend we made along the way cause witness will realise he maybe just need some friends to play cod sometimes to give life some meaning

[vagrant bridge]

Still insane to me that humanity could've become like the witness if Ishtar had gone through with it

[chrome fog]

Not. really. That was only post-collapse, with maya developing Neomuna

[gentle geyser]

Can’t wait for the final battle with the witness to begin with cayde saying “this is it, this is your destiny 2”

[chrome fog]

I won’t lie, “This is your Destiny” would be a good rebuttal to whatever death rant the Witness has about our victory when it’s being a sore loser

[gentle geyser]

I really badly want to hear that as an actual line

[chrome fog]

As it yaps on and on about how we will eventually die out and conflict will continue to go on without our stewardship, how we our destiny is to fizzle out and and be forgotten, we shoot them that line and put a round in its head

[exotic cloak]

Honestly I'm kinda mad they didn't used the phrase face your destiny

Was on the last final shape trailer the phrase was face your fate?

[chrome fog]

It’s clear they were saving it for a time like now, with Final Shape

[gentle geyser]

Yes

[exotic cloak]

I know but they had it in the last final shape trailer with the "make your own fate"

[eager trout]

The purpose of life is perpetuating life

[exotic cloak]

I guess they would use it at some point on launch or in the campaign itself

[eager trout]

Missed opportunity to say "make your own destiny"

[exotic cloak]

Yeah

[eager trout]

Technically they did do it in Spanish because destiny and fate translate into the same word

Which is similar to destiny

[exotic cloak]

Oh

Yeah I just checked they actually did it

[devout vine]

It'd probably be nice to have an old quote from Cayde come back, but it's slightly different

[jagged badge]

“Oh my nylon socks, did you not hear what I just said?”

[devout vine]

Nice little gag for us in the ultimate battle

Although...super serious Cayde would be really cool to see, just hope he goofs off during the battle whenever and wherever

[solar pawn]

I swear It was one of my favorite lines during forsaken I know there was more of my favorites especially one of those last ones

[solar pawn]

damn

[chrome fog]

I mean there's been "Guardians Make Their Own Fate" from VoG and I think a couple other places? And "Destiny Awaits" has been a persistent part of advertising since prior to D1 - it was how we guessed the name of Destiny as there was a poster in one of the Halo 3 levels which had that phrase

[dim minnow]

meant to put this in media chat

oh well

[gentle geyser]

Hope he doesn’t

The entire cayde was killed besides marketing was because he completely changes the tone of the scenes hes in

I mean just rewatch his final fight

Cayde can completely shift the tone of a scene

[velvet flax]

Mithrax said 'destiny' in Season Of The Splicer

'The only destiny is the one we make for ourselves' or something to that end

[chrome fog]

I would like a balance of goofball and serious Cayde. The kind of goofing off where you know shit's real and they know they can take care of anything.

[placid ridge]

Ok so if the vex have time travel shouldn’t they win their wars instantaneously?

[shadow warren]

If they had literal time travel yes

They dont

[placid ridge]

Explain?

I’m not at all educated on the vex’s abilities

[shadow warren]

I think they just use simulations to replicate a point in time? I’m new to lore so wait for somebody else to answer lol

Or their ability to travel through time is restricted/ineffective where paracausality is concerned

[solar pawn]

they basicly use part of the vex network to play God basically

[placid ridge]

Oh so they know what’s gonna happen theoretically

[shadow warren]

I believe they have some sort of foresight

Again, I’m no lore guru

[placid ridge]

Well they aren’t very good at using it are they….

[shadow warren]

Don’t wanna misinform anybody

The vex can’t simulate us

[placid ridge]

Hey I’m worse so your opinion is valid to me

[shadow warren]

Paracausality is the only thing they can’t understand

Which is why we continue to win

[placid ridge]

Yeah cuz they were born before then right?

[solar pawn]

they can't really use all the powerfull that they have outside of the network the only way they were able to kill a version of saint is because he was in network if that helps

[placid ridge]

They did WHAT

That’s it I’m leaving

[shadow warren]

We found his body in curse of Osiris

We brought an alternate version of him from another timeline from the infinite forest

[shadow warren]

I don’t think that’s specifically why

[placid ridge]

So the vex can jump timelines?

[jagged badge]

Saint-14 entered the Infinite Forest to find Osiris. Countless Vex swarmed him. Saint defeated them for ages. The Vex constructed a Mind tuned to Saint’s Light, managing to drain it from him. Saint killed the Mind and carried on before eventually perishing

[placid ridge]

But I’m not wrong

[shadow warren]

The specifics of their ability idk

[jagged badge]

The Vex then laid Saint to rest somewhere within

[serene swift]

Do we even know the origins of the traveler? Like there was unveiling but I don’t think it’s very reliable

[placid ridge]

I sure don’t know

[jagged badge]

We don’t

The furthest back we know is that it was apparently found in the Witness’ homeworld

[placid ridge]

Honestly the vanguard shout ask the Eliksni about it

[shadow warren]

Idk how or when the vex were born

[jagged badge]

Why would they know?

[shadow warren]

I remember something saying they were made from a clash of light and dark in the beginning of time

[placid ridge]

Idk they had the traveller first

[shadow warren]

Idk if that was since proven wrong

[jagged badge]

No

They had it last, before us

[placid ridge]

Didn’t they?

[shadow warren]

In which case no, they actually came after paracausality

[placid ridge]

Right

[jagged badge]

The Traveler had visited countless species for eons before the Eliksni

[shadow warren]

Not first

The witness had it first

Or the witnesses species anyway

[jagged badge]

The Witness’ race were the first yeah

[placid ridge]

My bad

[solar pawn]

the first we know of who knows maybe there was others before it

[shadow warren]

In terms of us and them you’re right tho

I think Asha tells us the witnesses people were the first

[placid ridge]

Were there ever Eliksni lightbearers?

[jagged badge]

Maybe, but the Traveler was literally buried in the Witness’ homeworld instead of arriving from the stars so who knows

[jagged badge]

No

[shadow warren]

They didn’t wield the light

They used it like people in the golden age did

[jagged badge]

The Traveler never created Ghosts until humanity’s Collapse

[placid ridge]

They be cheated on big time

[solar pawn]

maybe the final shape will help us learn more

[jagged badge]

No

[placid ridge]

Well the traveller left them, that’s the fallen’s whole thing

[jagged badge]

The Traveler left them in an attempt to protect them

[placid ridge]

Huh?

That’s new

[jagged badge]

With us it realised it had to try to take a stand instead

[placid ridge]

It left cuz it knew the witness would destroy them?

[solar pawn]

in the Lore if the travler would stay for too long it would call the complete collapse of that Civilization

[jagged badge]

You must force yourself to be cruel. Your presence is portent.```

[jagged badge]

Well, no

[shadow warren]

The fallen’s whirldwind was the darkness arriving wasn’t it

[jagged badge]

The Witness would

[shadow warren]

Same as the collapse

[jagged badge]

The Black Fleet and the Hive seemingly

[placid ridge]

Hence the name

Traveller

[shadow warren]

Black fleet my b

Ig darkness is outdated now

[solar pawn]

👍

[jagged badge]

It was a human, Evie Calumet, who dubbed the Traveler with that name

[shadow warren]

Was she anybody notable

[placid ridge]

I don’t know her

[shadow warren]

I assume she is

[jagged badge]

She was a scientist/astronaut on the Ares One mission but she was killed shortly before launch

[shadow warren]

What else did she do if so

Ah

[jagged badge]

A day or a few before I believe

[placid ridge]

Womp Womp

[shadow warren]

During the collapse?

[jagged badge]

No

This was pre-Golden Age

[shadow warren]

Ah

What killed her?

[jagged badge]

The Ares One mission was that mission with the three astronauts we see in that first ever cutscene of Destiny

[placid ridge]

One of them was her then

[jagged badge]

Where humanity made contact with the Traveler on Mars

[shadow warren]

I remember the cutscene yea

[jagged badge]

No, ‘cause she was killed before launch

[placid ridge]

Which started this whole shitstorm

[shadow warren]

Well

[placid ridge]

Someone’s been done doing researching

[shadow warren]

We’d probably be dead by now if we hadn’t, no?

The witness would have come this way anyway, but without meeting the traveler we wouldn’t have ghosts

[placid ridge]

Well I doubt the witness would have cared for earth

[jagged badge]

The three astronauts in the cutscene are Jacob Hardy, Ulysses Qiao and Dr M. Mihaylova

[shadow warren]

Yea but it’s whole point is eradicate existence

Which it could probably do to a normal civilization in an instant

[placid ridge]

Nah it’s to provide salvation

Praise the witness

[jagged badge]

American, Chinese and Russian respectively, demonstrating how humanity kinda united for this mission

[shadow warren]

Oh that’s cool

[placid ridge]

China prob copied to get there

[jagged badge]

Wrong. The Witness has been shown to have destroyed civilisations not touched by the Traveler

[jagged badge]

Don’t do that

[placid ridge]

Just for kicks? Respect

[placid ridge]

Sorry

[shadow warren]

[placid ridge]

“Made in china”

[jagged badge]

Again, don’t know where you’re going with this but just don’t

[placid ridge]

Ah fine

[chrome fog]

Yes, this is exactly the case; their simulations are advanced enough to act as 1-to-1 copies of historical events, but they do not have actual control over time, as otherwise they would not have needed to build the Vault of Glass, whose purpose was specifically the editing of reality within its borders

[shadow warren]

Oh nice lol

Wasnt sure

[jagged badge]

Isn’t the reason they’re on Neptune because they edited themselves into its history to have always been there?

Where’s Mael when you need him

[chrome fog]

The history of the Destiny universe goes much farther back than 2014; for example, Crota's brood had hidden themselves in the Moon before humans had even evolved

And even before them, the Witness had pulled in Rhulk, and way before that the Witness species had their existential crisis and (according the Entelechy lorebook from the Final Shape Collector's Edition) the higher ups enforced the mass suicide ritual that brought about the Witness

[placid ridge]

Ofc the hive are old as dirt

[chrome fog]

One of the main points is using guns and magics to slaughter ancient evils

[placid ridge]

So what’s the deal with the cabal

What’s their problem

[jagged badge]

They like conquering

They like strength and power

[placid ridge]

Well duh

That’s it?

It’s just bloodlust?

[jagged badge]

In the words of Tyra Karn

The Cabal… are not a subtle people

[placid ridge]

No they are not

[chrome fog]

Just a Space Empire. That’s them.

Their history very closely parallels Rome’s

In terms of how their government system progressed

[pseudo karma]

Just did partition, who is this sam orb dude

[dim minnow]

Sam is one of the Neomuni people who had joined up to help fight against the Shadow Legion invasion of Neomuna

also assisting against Vex Incursions

[pseudo karma]

Was he introduced during the campaign at some point that I forgot

[ember storm]

they’re actually older than any dirt making up earth

and also unrelated, smell like dirt

[dim minnow]

I believe his introduction was done more through patrols

he should be the one who gives you "kill things" patrols

specificly kill things by the way

[chrome fog]

He and other Neomuni get introduced that way, asking for your assistance either directly such as the “Kill things” patrols or indirectly such as the scan areas or some other objective

A fun example being casually committing actual war crimes by setting off the disposal chemical mass off on some Cabal raiding food pipelines or some such, which I on remember if it’s a scam patrol but hearing them explain how you’re helping them out from their virtual reality cryopods is very funny considering how boring patrols usually are

[dim minnow]

Quinn is the type who saw one too many liveleak videos

pretty sure she has canonically

at least that's the impression I got when she mentioned that some incident reports gave her terrible inspiration

[eager trout]

Still better than Nimbus' introduction (lightly pushing the Cabal with a hoverboard)

[eager trout]

Void lore
https://youtu.be/RL25kplyilM?si=ycOvp9fjMjsopd9s

[fervent sandal]

What exactly is collective obligation? What are its origins?

[trim grotto]

It wasn't given any specific origin or description apart from being given to Rhulk by the Witness

Could be a Lubrean artifact

[spiral crane]

Who is speaking in the witness origin cutscene in season of deep

The voice is really reverby

[dim minnow]

it is Ahsa speaking through Sloane

1. Ahsa is a "proto-worm god"
2. Sloane is a Guardian who had the Deputy Commander rank. She went mia when Titan was taken by the Witness at the end of Arrivals. She returned with Titan in Deep

[trim grotto]

Sloane is very cool

[dim minnow]

During Sloane's time on Titan when it was taken, she discovered Ahsa and the two bonded

they were able to establish a mental connection which essentially allowed Ahsa to use Sloane as a way to speak

of course, this required strengthening their connection with a particular type of Coral

as for how Ahsa knew the Witness' backstory, I don't think that's been revealed to us yet

and back on Ahsa's origin

are you aware of the Worm Gods (or the Hive's origin too)

[blazing wasp]

Do we know why nezarec doesn't use nightmares in his raid? Or was that more of a ship thing, not something he could really "do"?

[sage lion]

Is there a reason why warlocks have big flowey over coats?

[jagged badge]

That’s their vibe and aesthetic

Coats and robes

Hunters vibe is capes. Titans is big armour

Generally speaking ofc

[trim grotto]

they like them

But yes, there is more to it

[trim grotto]

Well we know other ships like the Europan Pyramid could do it, so it may be the latter

[trim grotto]

Take Starfire Protocol for example

[sage lion]

?

[trim grotto]

This is of little interest to most Guardians, who can subconsciously "load" the program simply by looking at the pattern. In execution, the Protocol enhances the use of Solar Light to catalyze fusion.```

plus, of course

Ikora```

the "good" is meant to be italicised

[exotic cloak]

Damn you were right

I just checked those, now I feel even worse

Bro did not even talk in BL and after that he pretty much just exist

[eager trout]

Why does the Superblack shader in the containment zone in Shaxx's place look like dark matter?

[chrome fog]

Superblack

[trim grotto]

I wouldn't look too much into the lore of the funny shader

[exotic cloak]

Is just funny shader

[eager trout]

But this is Destiny

Everything has lore

Even the random chickens in the Tower

[exotic cloak]

Into The Light does not

[trim grotto]

The Colonel has been in campaign cutscenes thank you very much

[exotic cloak]

Cause banned weapons and you can pretty much get them, hung jury is the worst case since is been a vanguard weapon for years

[eager trout]

Aren't there other chickens as well?

[trim grotto]

Not in the Tower
Nor with lore for that matter

[exotic cloak]

So Superblack being a super cool inestable mass that needs containment is

pretty much that

[eager trout]

It's Venom

That's why it's all black

[trim grotto]

yeah Into The Light isn't something to examine too deeply as far as lore is concerned
Which is fine, honestly, because it also got some very nice actual lore tabs on the side

[exotic cloak]

You can also ask why a cat killed a ghost or why we manufactured new armour

When this is supposed to be an emergency

"yeah guys save the world but dont forget the drip"

[trim grotto]

To be fair we can't follow Crow yet

but yeah haha

[eager trout]

As far as we know, the cat could have lore

Same for the pile of dead Ghosts

Someone said it might be related to the Nine

[trim grotto]

What?

[blazing wasp]

Pardon

[trim grotto]

Where do you get your information, honestly

[eager trout]

Random comment on YouTube

[ember storm]

ah yes

[exotic cloak]

Cat that killed ghost, pile of dead ghost or random abandoned room in half of heroes

Are just that

[ember storm]

the most accurate of sources

[trim grotto]

okay well
don't read those
they're incorrect incredibly often

[ember storm]

of course

[blazing wasp]

Why in the fresh hell would you even take them into consideration

[exotic cloak]

You can also ask why iron banner shield is still burning

[ember storm]

Olympic flame type I assume

[blazing wasp]

I still see people having arguments whenever the scp foundation is fucking real or not

[ember storm]

it is I’m the peanut

[blazing wasp]

In yt comments

[eager trout]

They said they think it might be the Nine's attempt to gain a physical form or something

[ember storm]

that’s

fucking what

[blazing wasp]

What

[exotic cloak]

Maybe

[eager trout]

It's a theory

[trim grotto]

What possible connection do these two things have with one another

[ember storm]

no not really

[blazing wasp]

Theories are born from likely hypothesis, which are educated guesses

[trim grotto]

And why would it be in the Vanguard Hall

[blazing wasp]

These are neither

[exotic cloak]

and why would the nine take a physical form of a cat and kill a ghost

[ember storm]

a theory has to actually be based on things that can be linked

[eager trout]

Not take the form of a cat. Influence the cat to gather Ghosts for them to study or something. Maybe trying to find a way to use the Light to gain a physical form.

[trim grotto]

that's... absurd.

i've heard strange theories before but that

is absurd

[blazing wasp]

I'd say I've heard worse

But I'm actually unsure

[trim grotto]

i have too but it involved the Cabal being robots

so it isn't a high bar

[ember storm]

something something druid witness

[trim grotto]

man i haven't heard from Vintage in yonks

i mean they got banned from a few places, so

[eager trout]

I mean, if you take the cat and the location out of the picture, the Nine studying Ghosts trying to find a way to use the Light to create a body for themselves isn't that far-fetched.

[trim grotto]

Right, but... that's removing the major part of the theory from the theory here

[ember storm]

how would that include killing a ghost

[jagged badge]

Didn’t they already look into Light as a method for independence?

[ember storm]

with a cat

the nine are not a hive mind

they have their own individual opinions and ideas

[trim grotto]

The Ghosts beyond the Heliopause
Which did in fact exist

[ember storm]

some do, some don’t

[blazing wasp]

It isn't far fetched, far fetched would be if this had any arguable ground like the cabal being robots

Cabal got funky voices and lights on their armor

[eager trout]

Kill a ghost to take it apart and see its insides.

[exotic cloak]

Why would the cabal be robots

[blazing wasp]

That's already more supportive evidence

[ember storm]

it has no insides

[blazing wasp]

Then this entire theory

[ember storm]

also Xur has been regularly visiting the tower for decades

[eager trout]

Maybe it wasn't the cat that killed the Ghosts, but rather just gathered dead Ghosts.

[exotic cloak]

Consider the ghost is just

the ball

everything else is a shell

[ember storm]

into a random corner in Shaxx’s private vault?

and why a cat

[eager trout]

Cut the ball in half

[eager trout]

It's a very hidden place

[ember storm]

a cat can’t do that

[exotic cloak]

You saw what happened when we crushed the balls in WQ right?

[trim grotto]

It's literally staffed by about a dozen people, a dozen Redjacks, Arcite 99-40, and Lord Shaxx

[ember storm]

ghosts need something like a direct shotgun blast or an entire crew of fallen rearing them to pieces

[exotic cloak]

There is literally nothing left

[eager trout]

Because I don't think Xur would be able to gather dead Ghosts without anyone noticing.

[ember storm]

he literally just appears and disappears

into thin air

it’s not transmat he just goes

if they wanted dead ghosts they’d get them

not with a cat

[exotic cloak]

https://tenor.com/view/invisible-vanish-good-bye-teleport-bye-gif-16415619

xur:

[trim grotto]

Eevee the Nine had access to the Ghosts who passed beyond the Heliopause
They've had opportunity to access Ghosts

They're not using a cat in a well staffed Vanguard vault to dissect Ghosts

[eager trout]

And likely none of them would pay attention to a cat. Plus, cats always find the most unlikely ways to reach places.

[jagged badge]

[eager trout]

What's the Heliopause?

[jagged badge]

Anyway

[trim grotto]

edge of the galaxy, in basic terms

sorry, solar system

[fast tapir]

if he is doing this i will fuck up his posture even more

[trim grotto]

he isn't

[exotic cloak]

Xur in a whellchair

[fast tapir]

lmao

[exotic cloak]

At least bro will get something that is actually his

[fast tapir]

his chair wont even be his own

[ember storm]

when xur dies

[trim grotto]

Eevee is arguing for the "theory" that the Nine are controlling a cat to gather and dissect Ghosts in a well staffed, maintained, regularly used Vanguard vault used by Lord Shaxx.

so

[ember storm]

he will clutch our hand and say his last words:

[trim grotto]

take that as you will

[ember storm]

“My will is not my own”

and hand over a legal document from the nine

[fast tapir]

lmao what the hell? 😭

[ember storm]

anyway

[trim grotto]

i'm going to bed now
this has been a very silly evening

[ember storm]

Orin would’ve killed xur if he was normal, right?

is it safe to assume he has some form of immunity?

[eager trout]

Orin?

[jagged badge]

G’night

[jagged badge]

Guardian who became the Emissary of the Nine

[ember storm]

did you really do zero research on the nine before subscribing to the cat

[trim grotto]

uhm
well his spine shattered and he was already not a healthy man, very little mass

so no, i don't think it's safe to assume this

[exotic cloak]

What if Xur just cant die

Because that, he has no will

[eager trout]

Huh

[eager trout]

Yes

[ember storm]

Phenomenal

[exotic cloak]

Okey give me a sec

[jagged badge]

You may want to be even just a little informed before championing random “theories”

[trim grotto]

from the Youtube comment section

[ember storm]

totally accurate and real destiny theory

[exotic cloak]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/the-nine?highlight=the+nine

[ember storm]

the traveler is actually the darkness because fallen say “darkness” in English when they spot you

real and true

I will accept no criticism

[exotic cloak]

Nah nah Traveler is a big golf ball

Gods were playing and traveler just got out of the field

[ember storm]

traveler is going to be a marble cake pop by the end of this

[exotic cloak]

Witness is just yogurt that accquired critical thinking

Cabal are Halo brutes that crossed an intermendisional portal and vex are legos

[eager trout]

I mean, I just mentioned that I saw the theory

[trim grotto]

scroll down first this time bionicle

don't backpost

[chrome fog]

Isn't Xur dying slowly with his whole body just not being configured correctly from the Nine?

[trim grotto]

Probably, yes. His cells are falling apart.

[exotic cloak]

Okey now I hate the Nine even more

[trim grotto]

It wasn't a malicious event

[chrome fog]

They're very stupid, don't put it too much on them

[trim grotto]

They literally do not know how life works

[exotic cloak]

Fair

[chrome fog]

And to throw my glove in, whilst yes you only just mentioned the theory as existing, it's important to recognize the credibility and plausibility of such theories. That a cat, not even a Star-Cat, is killing/gathering ghosts for the Nine despite already having a couple ghosts as mentioned and the improbability of a regular cat having the sentience to follow through with this plan, should have been obvious.

[eager trout]

I'd say it's more likely the cat is just gathering Ghosts that were already dead

[chrome fog]

I'd say it's just a cat next to a dead ghost

Because it's a bit ridiculous

[eager trout]

Evil cat

The problem is there's also a pile of dead Ghosts

[chrome fog]

Its

Not that deep

[ember storm]

me when bungie puts a random secret in a corner that’s funny in isolation and never meant to be thought about otherwise

[exotic cloak]

Like we said

Everything related to ITL is just random cool details

Of all those cool details, I think the cat that slays ghost is the most cool detail without actual explanation or lore of all ITL

Imagine for a moment is something serious It would be so ridiculous

"so yeah guys there's this evil cat who kills/recollects dead ghost"

He is The Final Shape

[dark linden]

I have a lore question

[jagged badge]

I may have a lore answer

Shoot

[dark linden]

So I haven’t found much about it because I can’t find it

Why did Felwinter want to fight Shaxx and gain his trust?

[jagged badge]

As I’m understanding it from a cursory reading, the Iron Lords wanted to assault the castle outright, but Felwinter wanted to end the conflict alternatively

I can link you the full entry of it all so you can read for yourself if you wish?

[dark linden]

That would be nice thank you

[jagged badge]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/remembrance

[dark linden]

Thank yooooou

[jagged badge]

Np!

[placid ridge]

What the chickenmcfuckit are you talking about

[chrome fog]

Waltz knows what he’s saying, the point he was trying to illustrate is that you can’t immediately trust any random theories that you see on the internet, like what Eevee had been doing with their “cat is working for the Nine to bring them ghost shells” theory from off the YouTube comments section

[jagged badge]

They

[devout vine]

[chrome fog]

They’ve accepted he/him pronouns, right? I’ve referred to them as “he” and it hasn’t been an issue before

If it is now I can transition to using they/them

[devout vine]

In that case, THEY'RE all catching these Prismatic hands

[eager trout]

Why are most of the Guardians in loretabs female?

[chrome fog]

What

What??

[exotic cloak]

What

[chrome fog]

The only person I refer to through pronouns is Waltz. Who is a fellow server member. Idk where this is coming from.

[chrome fog]

And there’s plenty of males in loretabs as well, this isn’t. really true

[eager trout]

While most of the male Guardians mentioned in lore tabs are the ones we meet in-game

[chrome fog]

Marcus Ren

Fuckin like half of the candidates for Hunter Vanguard who eventually died

Osiris was one for a while but then he got featured in his expansion for D2

Tommy and his guardian Ghost

[exotic cloak]

@eager trout I mean, why would be an actual reason

That is pretty much just

[chrome fog]

The Ghost controlled Guardian guy in the Spire lore tabs

[exotic cloak]

Writing

[chrome fog]

This is both a non issue and incorrect

[exotic cloak]

Exactly

Writers just write

And, well, characters are male, female, non-binary or whatever there's not much to say about that

[chrome fog]

Joylon, Savin, there’s definitely a couple I’m missing but that’s because there’s already a balance between the representation of characters on both sides of the binary, as well as a couple others who are not

Which as Taniks said, their gender identity is not inherently a defining characteristic of the characters, it’s a detail attached to them as their actions, their ideals are moreso what gives them character

[devout vine]

The witness

Duh

That's why I said prismatic hands

[chrome fog]

Deleto the Witness was not a part of the discussion at all

[devout vine]

https://tenor.com/view/confused-black-guy-what-akward-gif-26811297

So I see...
Apologies

[eager trout]

So to be in lore tabs you have to be one of these things:
-female
-guardian
-major character
-dead
-alien

[chrome fog]

N-No, what????

[exotic cloak]

[chrome fog]

Eevee have you been paying attention?

[exotic cloak]

Okey bro is definitely doing a little trolling

Can you stop

[eager trout]

The traits in that list are broad enough to include everyone that appears in lore tabs

[devout vine]

I'm so confused now...
I was just adding to the part where Taniks said something about witness and yoghurt.

I should've request to it instead

[exotic cloak]

Ah nah that's true

That about Witness being an entire civilization is a lie

Bro is just yogurt

[devout vine]

https://tenor.com/view/yogurt-terry-crews-i-love-yogurt-gif-5013263

[exotic cloak]

Greek yogurt, pure evil

[devout vine]

WHAT?!?¿°

I love Greek!!!

The witness's perspective don't sound too bad after all

[exotic cloak]

Well, witness is giving greek yogurt bad reputation

Anyway

[devout vine]

WHAT?
Loads shotty

[chrome fog]

Eevee this is a nothing statement. To be one of these things means literally any Destiny character in the story with the inclusion of "Guardian", "Major Character", and "Alien". You don't need to die on this hill when you can just be corrected.

[lyric cape]

What if the final shape ain't too bad after all

[exotic cloak]

It pretty much is

The end of the universe

[lyric cape]

That's bad?

[chrome fog]

The Final Shape of the Witness is objectively bad; but a Final Shape doesn't have to be

[exotic cloak]

I mean not for Witness but

[chrome fog]

Where do you live in genius

[exotic cloak]

You know

I like to live

[lyric cape]

Earth

[chrome fog]

And where is Earth in?

[lyric cape]

The solar system

[chrome fog]

And will you not be obtuse?

[exotic cloak]

@lyric cape Universe ending means no more Glaives

😔

[lyric cape]

Fuck the witness I hate that mfer

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/facepalm-really-stressed-mad-angry-gif-16109475

[devout vine]

Fuck me! Someone call Rtas Vadum and Glass this server

[chrome fog]

What is with today

[exotic cloak]

We did it bionicle, we stopped another guardian from joining the witness

Wait, there's been any guardian actually joining the witness?

[chrome fog]

No

Because the Vanguard has been ontop of that shit

[exotic cloak]

True

[chrome fog]

We only really have Jana-14 with the original Osteo Striga, going around and killing people and Guardians to feed the gun after being corrupted by the og Thorn

We sqaushed the Shadows of Yor because they are exactly what they sound like: a larper club of edgelords who want to be edgy and don't realize being psychotic is cool, it's stupid and highly dangerous to yourself and others around you

The Praxic Order has been secret policing for the longest time and also got Sola Scar

Who was a Guardian killer

[lyric cape]

If xivu is cut off from her throne world what exactly does that mean ?

[chrome fog]

When we kill her we won't have to kill her again in her Throneworld, and she can't revive in her Throneworld

Like we've done with Crota. And Oryx.

[lyric cape]

What was oryx's throne world?

[chrome fog]

The Dreadnaught; he turned his throneworld inside out and brought it into physical reality, making it the interior of his giant space ship

[devout vine]

She's mortalised

[chrome fog]

I explained already

[devout vine]

We kill her, she stays dead

[lyric cape]

And is savathun cut off too?

[chrome fog]

No

[devout vine]

She has immaru...who we have currently in custody

[chrome fog]

She doesn't have access to her Hive God power because she has removed her worm

Her Throneworld - which I should mention is a patrol destination that you can go to in Witch Queen - is maintained by Light from the Wellspring

[lyric cape]

If xivu is killed does that mean caitl gets the cabal homeworld?

[chrome fog]

The Cabal homeworld was cracked like an egg

[devout vine]

What's left of it perhaps

Torobatl is nothing now

A dead shell of a planet

Especially after Xivu's ingenious plan to use Umun'Arath to destroy Torobatl

[exotic cloak]

I guess they still have that

[chrome fog]

Savathun's actually; Xivu was just summoned there

[exotic cloak]

To make new story after Final Shape

I'm still curious about that, Echoes, Heresy and what was the other one?

[devout vine]

Revenant

[exotic cloak]

Dovadah suggested Heresy could go into hidden swarm but maybe

What if Xivu does something heretic to get her power back?

[lyric cape]

I wonder if xivu is the next big bad or we'll finish her in tfs

[exotic cloak]

If that even possible?

[chrome fog]

Heresy is clearly Hive themed, Revenant is Scorn, and Echoes seems to be Vex

[devout vine]

And there's the return of Fikrul

[chrome fog]

She might come around in the Heresy episode that Bungie will release after Final Shape

[eager trout]

That's the joke

[exotic cloak]

And echoes can be the sol divise

But yeah I'm still really curious on Heresy

[chrome fog]

It doesn't really come across as such, more like you being purposefully dense

[exotic cloak]

Hidden Swarm or Xivu committing an Heretic act to get her power back

Or maybe both

[chrome fog]

Or the Lucent Brood

Or all three

[exotic cloak]

They are heretic too so

But what's the possibilities of Savathun working with Xivu?