📚lore-discussion

[dim minnow]

Nightmares are related to memory are they not?

[spiral crane]

Since he is basically the darkness at this point

[dim minnow]

eh

[shadow wyvern]

The Witness isn't the Darkness

[next bobcat]

Yeah, so is deepsight…. oh

[dim minnow]

the Veil is still deeply connected to the Traveler

[spiral crane]

Or at least uses it a lot

[shadow wyvern]

The Witness uses Darkness and Light powers just as we do.

[next bobcat]

If there was to be a 3rd darkness subclass what would make the most sense?

[spiral crane]

Idk

Shadow

[next bobcat]

Very descript

[spiral crane]

Water?

[next bobcat]

Stasis

Also what would water do

[spiral crane]

True

[spiral crane]

Tidal waves

[chrome fog]

6th subclass should be saaaaaand

[next bobcat]

Water is very physical

Sand is physical

[spiral crane]

So is ice

[next bobcat]

Stasis is not ice

[spiral crane]

It acts alot like it

[next bobcat]

It’s just cold

Apparently you’re just freezing the concept of time or something

[chrome fog]

Funnily enough Stasis is not cold

[spiral crane]

Really?

[shadow wyvern]

isnt statis entropy

[trim grotto]

Stasis isn't ice. It's the absorption of energy from a point to such a degree that the environment crystallises. The physical nature of it is, in a way, a side effect of the actual effect.

[spiral crane]

Maybe gravity

Related

Idk

[trim grotto]

That'd be Void

[next bobcat]

Yeah

[spiral crane]

Oh that’s cool

[next bobcat]

Void is gravity+shadow

[spiral crane]

Idk enough about physics to guess the new subclass

[chrome fog]

You essentially lock all atoms of a target into a solid form, and arrange their molecules into a crystalline shape which resembles patterns found in radiolaria funnily enough

[shadow wyvern]

Did Witness write Unveiling?

[next bobcat]

If they were going to add sand, they should do this:
Earthshaker titan
Stonecaster warlock
Sandspinner hunter

(I made an earth element a while ago)

[chrome fog]

We do have some pretty informative pins on the mechanics behind each subclass

[dim minnow]

hmmm

[chrome fog]

As well as recent in-universe explorations as to what they are

[trim grotto]

Nobody guessed Strand. Who foresaw the subclass being the physical manipulation of a connecting universal thread of consciousness?

[dim minnow]

you know what, I don't think it was the Witness neccessarily, but maybe a member of the Witness' species

[next bobcat]

String theory

[shadow wyvern]

Cause I'm flabbergasted that people still equate Witness to Winnower, or Witness writing Unveiling as propaganda

After the new info that came out

[spiral crane]

What is strand supposed to be

[dim minnow]

conciousness

[next bobcat]

String theory a bit too

[trim grotto]

The physical manipulation of a connecting universal thread of consciousness.

[dim minnow]

also the Force from Star Wars

[next bobcat]

Yeah nah

[dim minnow]

minus the telekinesis

[next bobcat]

Just the midichlorians

[spiral crane]

Why can’t bungie put this much thought into making nimbus actually funny

This is so much detail

[next bobcat]

Anakin threadrunner

[shadow wyvern]

Because people keep blaming "the suits" rather than acknowledging that sometimes, the devs do shoddy work.

[chrome fog]

Not necessarily but also yes; misses the mark in some ways but also the interconnectivity of reality via the Weave would connect to String Theory. There is also strong support connecting Strand to electromagnetic waves, seeing as the element aesthetics closely resemble the two slit experiment to demonstrate the dual nature of light particles

[shadow wyvern]

Strand is wavy magic

there

[next bobcat]

Solar = heat
Arc = energy
Void = gravity
Stasis = cold (kinda)
Strand = web of connectedness
6th - opposite of energy? Possibly antimatter?

[trim grotto]

No, in this case, I must heavily disagree.
I've seen a few inside views into Bungie. I know people who work there and people who know people who work there.

There is a lot of feedback from the devs and a lot of overridden decisions and ignored feedback.

The "suits" are, quite often, the root of the issue.

This includes the thematic direction of Lightfall

[chrome fog]

Very much the suits have made much worse decisions as their overshooting predicted earnings leading to the layoffs of Bungie’s staff has demonstrated, to which it’s hard not to imagine there is severe pressure within development causing hiccups that the team then has to get flack for

[next bobcat]

80s superhero

[trim grotto]

And Mara's personal "growth" this season

[dim minnow]

80s scifi action

[next bobcat]

Yeah

[shadow wyvern]

You're really telling me that the suits are behind every little decision in the game? The game has many flaws that I don't think are plausibly because of the suits.

Okay. For example, the UI/UX of the game.

[trim grotto]

Not everything. But the big things.

[shadow wyvern]

It's bad and inaccessible, can we agree on that?

[dim minnow]

it seems like all Destiny expansions have their own distinct genre

[next bobcat]

Hmmm, maybe genocide isn’t the best course of action

[dim minnow]

liek Witch Queen is detective noir

Forsaken is Western

[next bobcat]

Beyond light

[chrome fog]

Which then trickles down to the bad things

[dim minnow]

Space Opera

[next bobcat]

Shadow keep is horror

[shadow wyvern]

A bazillion menus. Not enough explanation. Not straightforward. People have a hard time intuiting information from the game, no?

[trim grotto]

I'm not saying Destiny is flawless, but many devs are thoroughly aware of the problems Destiny has. This doesn't mean they're allowed to change it.

[next bobcat]

Yeah, ok

[dim minnow]

and Taken King is Comedy Sitcom

[chrome fog]

Oh Oryx!

You rascal

[dim minnow]

"Father is going to eat our souls"

[shadow wyvern]

All I'm saying is that the devs are people, sometimes they do good work, sometimes they do shoddy work. That should be the assumption. Is that an unreasonable assumption?

We can't attribute everything to some big bad.

[spiral crane]

How about it’s a mix of factors

[trim grotto]

I am not denying this. I am saying the majority of issues that exist or haven't been since fixed are because of executive decisions.

[shadow wyvern]

And we shouldn't be getting the pitchforks and accusing "the suits" everytime.

[trim grotto]

Cairus I know people who worked there

[shadow wyvern]

I understand that.

You have access to more information than I do.

[next bobcat]

Oryx - “hey Crota I’m home! Kill any guardians today?”
Crota - “this guardian just keeps soloing me with banner of war and the lament”

laughter

[trim grotto]

Upper management roadblocks a lot of things
I am not saying the Devs haven't made problematic menus or UI at points, or bad balance patches, or whatever
But a significant portion of game direction and continued unchanged systems and unfixed issues lie in management

'tis what 'tis

[shadow wyvern]

Sure, we can agree to that.

[safe galleon]

counterpoint: is it a reasonable assumption that the people financing the developers don't have any significant amount of creative authority in what they do

[next bobcat]

You’re’nt

[chrome fog]

Creative and development issues are able to be mitigated give enough room to work with, which ultimately Executives within a company are responsible for delegating. They are ultimately responsible for making executive decisions that ensure the stability of everyone’s employment and working conditions to best produce results that are both enjoyed by the consumers as well as something they are proud to have produced

[spiral crane]

anyways it’s 2 am so I’m going to sleep

Thanks for answering my questions

Gn

[shadow wyvern]

I'm just saying that not everything should be pinned on some executive. I work with a lot of C-level executives a lot as part of my role. They usually do high-level decision making and they usually listen to the people on the ground because they usually know when someone knows more about them about something than they do, that's why they hired those people!

[safe galleon]

'usually' isn't 'always', though

[next bobcat]

A Mimir

[shadow wyvern]

And I also have this suspicion that Bungie doesn't have a lot of "suits", most of their leadership were game developers, no?

[trim grotto]

Quite, but therein lies the problem. There are many reports of not listening to the people on the ground.

[shadow wyvern]

Like for example.

Destiny has a lot of issues with their engine.

It's a real bottleneck.

[trim grotto]

Bungie's upper body is nearly totally unrecognisable from those days.

[shadow wyvern]

Is that on the suits?

[trim grotto]

No, that's a legitimate limitation of the engine itself.

[chrome fog]

They have very much developed past the indie dev structure for a game company

[shadow wyvern]

Right. That affects a lot of the things.

[next bobcat]

I feel like this is getting a big off track

[shadow wyvern]

Like turnaround on content creation.

Or what they can even implement.

[chrome fog]

It’s fine for the moment, we’ll reign it in soon

[next bobcat]

Do we need a dedicated bungie hate channel?

[shadow wyvern]

And we know that Destiny 1's engine made it hard for them to make expansions.

Because it took days/weeks to move one asset a few pixels.

But they still have those problems in Destiny 2.

[safe galleon]

yes, but we call it #✨destiny-discussion

[next bobcat]

Ah

[shadow wyvern]

We should cut this short since this is the lore channel.

[trim grotto]

I don't hate Bungie. But I'm quite well aware of the inner issues, of which there are many. Bungie has much good in it, as much as it has bad.

[shadow wyvern]

But just want to clarify I'm not hating on Bungie.

Moreso I dislike that assuming everything is one party's fault has been normalized.

[next bobcat]

https://tenor.com/view/fish-bait-baiting-bass-fishing-gif-2140444873906627680

Reel it in guys

[shadow wyvern]

ye

We can move to another channel if you want

[next bobcat]

Move it to #✨destiny-discussion or #🏆destiny-media

[chrome fog]

I think we know Zoup

[next bobcat]

Yeah

Ok

[shadow wyvern]

TFS will introduce Winnower

or Bungie canned their original story again

I'm dyin on this hill

[next bobcat]

Maybe the real winnower was the friends we made along the way.

[chrome fog]

It’s fine to continue the discussion and end it here, we’ve essentially hit its peak conclusion and can quickly resolve after Mael finishes

[shadow wyvern]

Yeah I'm willing to hear him out

[next bobcat]

We must hear Mael give his final verdict

[shadow wyvern]

He never even gave his verdict on Unveiling

[next bobcat]

That’s 2 sidearms

[chrome fog]

NOO DARN YOU SPAM FILTER

My message got ated up

[next bobcat]

Consumed

[chrome fog]

Taken

[next bobcat]

Bro’s message drowned in the deep

[shadow wyvern]

It's a big lore drop

Bungie lore

[next bobcat]

What is?

[shadow wyvern]

What he's typing up

[next bobcat]

Yea

Makes sense

Bro what is he cooking? This is a 500 word essay right here

[trim grotto]

But for the Witness, victory alone is not enough. It must ruin all the Great Machine has touched, from the smallest creature to the greatest planet. Destroy everything the Light has built. Drown hope in bitterness. The Witness would have us all curse the Great Machine, refute its gifts, and betray it, as the Black Fleet tramples us underfoot. It would make us all Eramis, sick with despair and crushing our own dreams.```

As for Unveiling: A *lot* of points *heavily* leaned towards the Witness writing Unveiling for quite some time. The metaphor aspect was enhanced and focused in on, leading us to believe that Unveiling itself was not a truthful recounting, but exactly what it always said it was - a metaphor.

Take, for example, where Unveiling *came* from. An artifact within the Pyramid of the Witness leads us to the Black Garden wherein there is a statue of the Witness's influence, and where we saw the Witness appear to us in a cutscene. The artifact of the Witness then begins to give us messages of Unveiling, ending in a statement saying it'll come and meet us, directly followed by the arrival of the Black Fleet of the Witness in Sol.

Eiro in Entelechy differentiates the Witness and the Winnower. It may well be a meaningless differentiation, as Unveiling is meant to convince us and the Witness has before put on many personas in order to accomplish the same thing: Such as with Lisbon, or Raksil/Ekris.

What this lead some to believe was that the Witness had taken on the persona of a winnower. The Witness had taken up the Knife, and it was preforming a role, because the Winnower is essentially a *concept*. Cut away the rot, or the rot will grow.

[shadow wyvern]

I guess he's not the Cryptarch for nothing

Lemme read

[next bobcat]

Witness statue in the back garden? Please explain

[trim grotto]

Garden of Salvation, the Raid.

[next bobcat]

Oh

[chrome fog]

I flunked the Cryptarchy exams, unfortunately; but like irl college I had a good time and met some nice people there

Now I’m independently educating myself on the lore

[shadow wyvern]

So you agree

They're diff entities

[trim grotto]

Well, no. Actually, I don't.

However, all of that being said, the Witness/Winnower debate isn't settled.
The Winnower persona hasn't been given an explicit confirmation or denial, and there are pieces of the story that don't quite neatly fit. I won't be so quick to say that there is a definitive answer here, despite believing that they're related at the very least.

One point I could point to, which I quite enjoy, is Raksis.

[shadow wyvern]

You just pointed out the fact that bungie literally pointed out that the Winnower and Witness behaved differently

There's only two motivations I can think of for Bungo to put it there.

1. To insist that The Winnower is a hypocrite

2. To resow the idea that the two entities might be separate

[trim grotto]

Yes, I did. And I shall do so again. Ever read the lore on Star Eater Scales?

[shadow wyvern]

No.

[next bobcat]

What?

[chrome fog]

Winnower is at best some ontological entity that either originated from either the Witness species’ initial contact with the Veil or from the Veil itself, which then went on to influence Maya Sundaresh to follow similar steps; at worst it is a fictitious figure made up by the Witness akin to the ubermensche of Nietzsche’s nihilism writings, but in this case an ideal image of what the Witness wants to be as it saves existence from its inherent meaninglessness, which it fails to live up to because of course it’s not going to be exactly like the Winnower, it’s god-like but not wholly a god itself

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/star-eater-scales
Read this, tell me what it says to you.

[chrome fog]

There is a Cryptarchy server. I got kicked out. That is all that shall be said.

Aside from the server link if you’d like

[next bobcat]

Oof.

[next bobcat]

I would absolutely flunk

I need to study more

[chrome fog]

They’re fine, honestly really helpful people, I just rubbed off the headmaster wrong and didn’t try hard enough to behave

[next bobcat]

Oof

[chrome fog]

Just take this channel and make it a whole server, it’s fairly nice

[next bobcat]

Oh, ok. I might join it in a while

[chrome fog]

Lettuce is also there, he did the write up on how the light elements work

[next bobcat]

Most of the time I spend on discord I spend in this channel 🤓

[trim grotto]

The harsh buzz of a sawtooth wave jolted Ekris from slumber. He groaned, slid off his cot, and slumped into the pilot's chair. Large amounts of data streamed across an array of thick glass screens while the alarm blared. He connected all the various details: heavy interference on scanners, propulsion malfunction in the main drive, erroneous flags on the proximity detectors. He looked through the porthole, a glass circle no more than five inches wide, and saw wisps of blue particulates wash past.
This is a familiar sight. To simplify it, it's Darkness. We've seen examples of this before, often involving Pyramids.

Raksis doesn't exist, much like Lisbon's "clone". Consider Raksis to be, instead, the Witness, whispering in the ear of Ekris.

This entry, then, implies that the Witness is the being that teased the idea of the Kell of Kells prophesy. It created the prophesy that divided their entire species and lead to infighting, wars, House vs House, Kell vs Kell. Think of how many issues they, and we, have had to deal with because of this prophesy.

"Maybe we didn't," Raksil said with a devilish grin. "Maybe something else dreamt it for us. To keep us apart."```

So why am I referencing this at all, other than the fascinating lore?

It's a persona. The Witness has taken a form, gotten into Ekris's head, solely for the purpose of fucking with him. It didn't even accomplish anything. It just threw out half of his worldview and left.

[chrome fog]

The phrasing of it like that is hilarious, like the perfect lead-in for “wow what the fuck was his problem”

Witness is devious as shit

[next bobcat]

The witness should have they/them pronouns since it’s literally an entire race

[trim grotto]

We usually go by it/they, yes

[shadow wyvern]

Why would Raksil say "Maybe something else dreamt it for us. To keep us apart." if it was the Witness?

[chrome fog]

To fuck around

[shadow wyvern]

Just to fuck with this specific one?

[trim grotto]

Pretty much

[chrome fog]

Sow discord

[shadow wyvern]

Okay, consider this.

[trim grotto]

The reason I say it is the Witness is because we've seen this event before, with the Darkness energies, the interference, malfunctions, collision warnings - and we've seen it before with Lisbon.

[shadow wyvern]

The Witness would have us all curse the Great Machine, refute its gifts, and betray it, as the Black Fleet tramples us underfoot. It would make us all Eramis, sick with despair and crushing our own dreams.

If you look at The Unveiling, The Winnower's philosophy does not speak to me as something to cause discord, it's merely a presentation of an idea.

And an explanation of the argument between Win and Gar

Guardians having that information to sow discord?

There was a mention of The Unveiling going around guardians in some line or lore, I believe.

But the stance of The Winnower in Unveiling could be portrayed as something quite passive, I'm not sure if I'm making sense to you here.

[trim grotto]

Then ask them if they would like to live in a universe where no one ever sits beside anyone else at the fire.```

[shadow wyvern]

Remember, The Gardener was the one who was dissatisfied with the results and wanted to change the game.

The Winnower believes it's right and the game will reach the same conclusion regardless.

[trim grotto]

On the topic of Unveiling, I will also mention that the final entry from Eris Morn, Trust and Hope, was not designed as an ending. It was written as an alternative.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/trust-and-hope
When written, it was under the premise that we'd either have Unveiling or Trust and Hope, depending on our decisions.

[shadow wyvern]

Yes I know that

Depending on the choice

[chrome fog]

The main point was that yes, the Witness is a hypocrite trying to play the role of an ineffectual and despondent higher power, trying to embody the same aura or vibe as the Winnower present in Unveiling when in reality it is much more emotional and prone to mistakes. Unveiling is itself a piece of propaganda for the Witness’ cause (albeit not well, it was essentially a book of presenting the Gardener’s points outright and treating them like they’re coming from a soyjack) and much of what it gives us in terms of information needs to be filtered and corroborated with other entries

[shadow wyvern]

A piece of propaganda for the Witness' cause.

What is The Witness' cause?

[chrome fog]

With that in mind, it’s also fairly clear that the Winnower is trying to present a very sanitized version of what the Witness’ beliefs, that it is cruel for existence to have no inherent meaning, that complexity and connectivity like the Gardener wishes for is inefficient when all existence should strive to be the last one standing at the end of it all. The win condition for the Winnower’s side of the bet demonstrates to us what the Witness believes to be the meaning to life: strife to prove one’s existence deserves to be, and that is what it will reformat existence to be like once it completed what it is doing beyond the portal on the Traveler

[chrome fog]

To enable it to enact its Final Shape on existence, to allow it to mold reality as it believes it should be like

Because it believes it knows the true meaning of existence, and that it needs to be reinforced even more somehow

[shadow wyvern]

If you are anyone reading Unveiling and you buy into The Winnower's philosophy, essentially this:

Existence is the first and truest proof of the right to exist. Those who cannot claim and hold existence do not deserve it. This is the true and only divination, a game whose losers are not just forgotten but are never born at all.

Then you believe that you should claim your existence by extinguishing everything else.

Helping The Witness enact its Final Shape is not that claim to existence.

[chrome fog]

Well yes and no;
Existence as it is rn would not remain should the Witness succeed, but if it were to change reality as it wished, there would be no possibility for cooperation, consolidation, and any other form of existence other than one where you strife against one another until only one remains by the end of time. Effectively, it is trying to make Social Darwinism an actual law of reality, not realizing the other ways of existence are equally valid and that the fact there are multiple ways to live is solely from the lack of an inherent meaning to life

To use an allegory, it fails to see the reason why the dodo bird lost its ability to fly when residing on island that provides for it and there are no predators to harm them, and instead asks why the dodo hasn’t evolved into an apex predator to be top of the food chain

[shadow wyvern]

The whole Gardener and Winnower dynamic is one of cooperation versus competition. To ensure your existence you must eliminate every threat to your existence, which is in theory, everything else that lives. That is why the Final Shape forms, that is why the universe always concludes with only one thing in the end.

They're majestic, I said. They have no purpose except to subsume all other purposes. There is nothing at the center of them except the will to go on existing, to alter the game to suit their existence. They spare not one sliver of their totality for any other work. They are the end.

[chrome fog]

Yes, I haven’t contradicted this fact yet

[shadow wyvern]

The Gardener's argument is that no, that's not necessarily the case.

It was the gardener that chose you from the dead. I wouldn't have done that. It's just not in me. But now that they have invested themself in you, you are incredibly, uniquely special. That wandering refugee chose to make a stand, spend their power to say: "Here I prove myself right. Here I wager that, given power over physics and the trust of absolute freedom, people will choose to build and protect a gentle kingdom ringed in spears. And not fall to temptation. And not surrender to division. And never yield to the cynicism that says, everyone else is so good that I can afford to be a little evil."

If you believe that there is such an argument that exists, then everything that the Traveler has done makes sense.

[trim grotto]

Think of it this way: if it is the Witness - I know that isn't your view, but imagine if - then it is presenting itself, and Darkness, and the destruction that the Black Fleet will bring, as something akin to nature. It cannot be blamed, it is an unyielding tempest, a force. So what do we blame? The Traveler that upset the balance, that brought this storm to our doorstep! It is like The Singular Exegete suggests.

—That we are weak—obvious, and false. No.

—That we made errors in our defense—our enemy is not a strategy instructor. No.

—That everything grown must die, hope is futile, etc.—tiresome. Death may be inevitable, but life is worth fighting for to protect and extend. No.

—That the Traveler is using us for its own ends. Then why would it sacrifice itself? No.

—That the Darkness is not OUR enemy. It is only the Traveler's enemy.

Does the enemy suggest we should have turned on the Traveler during the Collapse? Cracked it like an egg?```

And here's a fun one:
```Is winter evil? It CAUSES evil. It leads us into evil choices through scarcity and pain. But winter is the result of natural circumstance. Even if it had a mind, it could never choose to become an endless summer. It would always hurt us, simply by being itself. Does that make it evil?

And if we were to build shelters and weapons out of ice, would we become evil?

Survival in winter requires wintercraft. Survival in darkness requires… a new idea of good and evil. One that will not collapse into moral indifference.``` It lead us towards Stasis - by presenting itself as the natural force, this unaligned storm, it shadowed the hidden curse of Stasis - the absolute need to control, or be corrupted or frozen. It didn't need to be a long haul propaganda, it merely needed to make us think twice and handle Stasis. Without Elsie, we'd have succumbed to failure.

My person views aside, I am quite aware that the overall debate is certainly still ongoing, and the true answer could weigh out to either side. However, in my opinion, The Witness *is* a hypocrite, and Entelechy outlines this. 
```The Witness does not need cruelty to win. It does not need to mutilate the Great Machine's creations. To inspire fear and despair. It does not even need to tempt you to use the Darkness, which it has claimed to be - though we know, from your experiences on Neptune, that the Witness does not hold as complete a dominion as it wishes us to believe. In fact, its cruelty has actively slowed and hindered its purpose. Had the Witness simply overwhelmed humanity and crushed all resistance, there would have been nobody left for the Great Machine to uplift. No Ghosts or Guardians to defy it.
...
But for the Witness, victory alone is not enough. It must ruin all the Great Machine has touched, from the smallest creature to the greatest planet. Destroy everything the Light has built. Drown hope in bitterness. The Witness would have us all curse the Great Machine, refute its gifts, and betray it, as the Black Fleet tramples us underfoot. It would make us all Eramis, sick with despair and crushing our own dreams.```
Because the Witness seeks to rid the universe of pain, as it has said itself - yet it waits, takes its time, torturing and poisoning and eradicating hope.

Anywho, I'm going to go make dinner, and I've had Unveiling discussions far too many times, so I'll leave it here.
I will say that I do absolutely get what you mean, and your points are valid. I appreciate the discussion! Enjoy your day/night, folks.

[shadow wyvern]

If we kill to ensure our survival, then remove the threat of non-existence, remove death - become undying - and see that the undying will choose not to subsume everything else, and the universe won't end with only one thing remaining.

If the Winnower is right and The Gardener is wrong, it has to do nothing. All it has to do is watch and see everything fall into place, the exact same conclusion that has happened over and over again.

That is why there is no call to arms, or anything of the sort, in Unveiling. All it is is a presentation of an idea, because the only thing that matters is if The Guardians agree with that philosophy or not.

Because if they agree with that philosophy then they will eradicate everything else.

Proving Win right.

Actually it might not even matter if Guardians agree with that philosophy or not.

To The Winnower, since that is the way things are, Guardians (or something else) will follow its natural conclusion and eventually swallow everything up .

[chrome fog]

Although I doubt the Traveler wished to have to resort to the Guardians (and also Paracausality has not yet been a variable introduced into the universe until after Unveiling’s events supposedly), that is an interesting take on how the Traveler/Gardener defies the Winnower’s belief of existence is only meant to filter out a single deserving species/individual

[shadow wyvern]

The only reason to present that idea might just be to hammer in the Gardener in their argument.

[chrome fog]

Yeah exactly

[shadow wyvern]

"Here I wager that, given power over physics and the trust of absolute freedom, people will choose to build and protect a gentle kingdom ringed in spears."

"But imagine the abomination of a world where nothing can end and no choice can be preferred to any other. Imagine the things that would suffer and never die. Imagine the lies that would flourish without context or corrective. Imagine a world without me."

Nothing can end because death does not exist.

The only reason people compete and it ends the same way is because death does exist, that there is a threat to one's own existence. The Gardener saying that it does not have to be this or does not want it to be this way is a refusal to accept the conceptual being of The Winnower itself.

[chrome fog]

This was only for their most recent game they were about to start, until the Gardener was struck down by the First Knife, Blade, I can’t remember the name; prior to that, if we are to believe Unveiling wholesale, existence had followed conventional rules of physics, which the Gardener had grown sick of due to the Winnower’s belief being proven correct over and over again (cough cough really unsubtle that the Witness is saying it’s undeniably right) and wished to introduce new “rules” those of Paracausality

[shadow wyvern]

Hold on lemme read the responses

[chrome fog]

To which I reiterate that these are the most logical probabilities as to what the Winnower is, as it’s clear that the Witness is not fully the same entity

[shadow wyvern]

The Traveler didn't necessarily intend to resort to Guardians. But the powers of light existed long before T gave it to the Gs.

[chrome fog]

But at the same time there is a lack of support for the Winnower being an entity of its own right, though the possibility exists

[shadow wyvern]

The Witness' race had light.

"Here I prove myself right."

Right about what?

"That given power over physics and the trust of absolute freedom, people will choose to build and protect..."

So he was always going on about that.

[chrome fog]

That was the Gardener, not the Winnower

[shadow wyvern]

No, I'm saying you said that T didn't wish to resort to us.

The Witness enacting its final shape does not prove The Winnower right.

So okay, they have different philosophies.

That's established.

Now the point of contention is whether that philosophy in Unveiling is just gibberish to sow discord and further The Witness' objective, yes?

[chrome fog]

Then anyways, I maintain that the purpose of Light was not to literally bestow immortality across various species so a great variety live to the end of the universe, but moreso allow the circumvention of “natural cause” which generally leads to individuals, civilizations, species to turn against one another out of self-preservation

[shadow wyvern]

I can agree with this.

Go on.

[chrome fog]

And I think you’re misinterpreting the point we’re making of Unveiling being Witness propaganda; the Witness’ end goal with enacting its Final Shape is to Make things as they should be, as they are, which the Winnower demonstrates - existence is struggle for the last one standing. Going to Mael’s message, the Witness presents itself and its actions as acts of nature, as inevitable, despite the fact it is perfectly cognizant and capable of just. Not fucking killing everything to get what it wants. Which is the point, that the Witness is emblematic of general selfish nihilistic thought that laments the cruelty of the universe not handing someone their job in life, their blind ignorance to the other possibilities of life is really stupid because yeah, ultimately the meaning of life is what you make of it.
You making your own purpose, your own meaning in life.
You, the Player Guardians, make their own Fate.

[shadow wyvern]

I can understand that you guys think Witness is a hypocrite is a thing.

[chrome fog]

“Nothing matters, so why should I care” - boo, stinky, be nicer to people instead of blaming it on nothing mattering
“Nothing matters, so I’ll make what I do matter” - coolio, healthy and not self-destructive

[shadow wyvern]

Okay. Let's back up a bit.

[chrome fog]

I mean it really is, like legit what was it’s fucking problem when it already reached the pinnacle of civilization development

[shadow wyvern]

The philosophies of The Witness and The Winnower as written in the book of Unveiling don't fit with each other. We all agree on that.

[chrome fog]

Exactly, which is where we draw the hypocrisy angle from

[shadow wyvern]

You guys think that they don't fit because The Witness is a hypocrite, and because that philosophy was only stated as it was, in the book, as propaganda to sow dissent. Did I get that part right?

[chrome fog]

It’s a hypocrite because what it’s done and what it espouses outside of Unveiling misaligns with what is presented by the Winnower, despite their self-insert having a similar tone of “Get a load of the Traveler/Gardener, she’s stupid for having faith in existence to gather together and create something greater than their sum”

It told us Unveiling and everything, yet here it is not even following what the Winnower follows

[shadow wyvern]

“Get a load of the Traveler/Gardener, she’s stupid for having faith in existence to gather together and create something greater than their sum”

No, see. The Witness doesn't think this of the Traveler. Witness' version would be "Get a load of the Traveler, she's a bitch for not giving me a well-defined purpose."

But that's not my main point of contention.

[chrome fog]

… which would then lead to its opposition to any of the Traveler’s beliefs

[shadow wyvern]

My main point of contention is to see it from the point of view of someone reading the Unveiling, and of The Witness thinking about what the reader would think.

And how that fits into its objective.

[chrome fog]

If it feels so offended by the Traveler’s silence, it would spit in the face of any of her beliefs

[shadow wyvern]

Would I, a Guardian, hate the Traveler because the Unveiling outright said it had faith in me and my choice to be good?

[chrome fog]

Oh no, yeah, the Witness is just. stupid for thinking the Winnower looks like the one in the right - of which that dismissal of the Gardener’s points serves to emphasize

Unveiling is very much, someone making a soyjack insulting genuinely acceptable and even inspirational hopes for living, and expecting everyone else to join in

[shadow wyvern]

After all, The Witness does not need Guardians to enact their final shape. At most, the only reason to give the Gs the book is to sow dissent and "curse the Great Machine"

But if that was the case, we don't see a whole lot of that, and Bungie would've tried to get that point across more vividly.

[chrome fog]

Which would only be the case if one were to follow a similar pessimistic fatalist mindset, such as Rhulk who even better embodies that “Nothing matters so it shouldn’t matter if I kicked your puppy and took your money” subset of nihilists, or Nezarec who is more of “I fuck around because it’s funny, and I think it’d be funny to tag along with the genocidal space lich”

[shadow wyvern]

Think of it from another angle.

Unveiling is what you think it is.

The Witness is the big bad.

We defeat The Witness.

It doesn't come full circle.

There is no conclusion other than "We stopped the big bad from ending the universe!"

It doesn't add up.

It doesn't add up to the constant references and lore surrounding the Black Garden, the Tree with Silver Wings, the veiled statues, all of that.

There is no catharsis.

It is as nihilistic of a conclusion to a story as the nihilism of the villain itself.

Setting up a story without such a catharsis all the way from at least Shadowkeep, maybe even from D1? It doesn’t add up.

[chrome fog]

Well it also needed to find the Veil, as Savathun had hidden it just as it was able to corner the Traveler here in the Sol System. It could wait until all the forces it has manipulated scour all of the planetoids to find it, or it could invite a soldier of its enemy into its pyramid, present itself as “Salvation” and enlist it in its efforts to find the dang thing. The Witness has no reservations for whom it recruits, Calus himself being a late addition solely because he had the forces to storm and scour Neomuna as well as Eramis, whom it could manipulate her desire to get back at the Traveler. The Witness is, in fact, pathetic

[chrome fog]

The catharsis is that instead of being forced to follow another’s idea of what life should be, we get to ensure the freedom of all other life to chose their way of life, hopefully one in which we cooperate or at the very least one where we do not attack one another. It is scary that there is no real meaning to life, but the beauty is that we get to discover, to develop our own meanings of life.

It’s the opposition of pessimistic absurdist nihilism as opposed to optimistic nihilism. Space is a big empty space no matter if you save it or not, so either do something in it or don’t, just don’t try to make everyone else follow your doomer view of life because you think you know better.

[shadow wyvern]

Absurdism is optimistic.

[chrome fog]

Isn’t absurdist just reaching the conclusion of the absence of inherent meaning to life? Optimism then adds the “so create an ideal and work towards it” part, right?

(It’s been a while since I finished my philosophy class for IB)

But in any case, yeah, there is no inherent meaning to existence. Waddayado abouddit

[shadow wyvern]

Nihilism is surrender. Absurdism is find our own meaning. Camus is the guy people think of when they think of absurdism, and his answer to the absurd is to find your own meaning.

[shadow wyvern]

Realistically, it just doesn't make sense that this is their whole finale, the whole story.

[chrome fog]

Doesn’t that partially stem from Nietzsche’s ubermensch? Part of his latter works delve into that “so make your own thing, become the most ideal version of yourself”

[chrome fog]

Well the fun part is that the story continues

Even with the defeat of the Witness and the assurance of existence remaining relatively the same, we still have other threats to deal with

Scorn, the Vex, Xivu Arath is still kicking about despite being evicted from her respawn chamber (Throneworld)

[shadow wyvern]

Destiny has good lore, asks good questions and has a decent mythology.

[chrome fog]

Will we get to experience more of the Concordat, will we get to meet up with Efrideet’s pacifist colony? Can the Vex learn to be cooperative? So many things to explore after Final Shape

Nezarec’s also farting about, forgot about him

[shadow wyvern]

You’re talking about the story and the journey. I’m talking about the narrative.

Defeating the Witness is not a payoff.

And they’ve setup tensions and have a lot of unclarified things pertaining to the Traveler and the whole shebang.

You don’t think it’s weak?

[chrome fog]

I mean. Manipulator of essentially all events which have caused major travesty to basically all the races which can feel emotion occupying the Sol System, killing it would seem pretty satisfying

A legit root of all evil, it’s pretty sweet

[shadow wyvern]

Most people don’t even understand the motivations of the Witness.

Have any idea what final shape means.

[chrome fog]

And this channel and many other resources and groups are there for them to learn

[shadow wyvern]

If this is the story

People would not be impressed

[chrome fog]

Lore’s been part of the game since forever

[shadow wyvern]

In my opinion at least.

I guess we’ll see who’s right in June

[chrome fog]

And mentioning it being important to what’s happening in the story would probably lead people to dive deeper into the lore; it’ll most definitely have more impact on those who have been around longer to experience the developments in the story as we have, but to say the lore is disconnected from the story misses the fact that our story is part of the lore

We’re making our own legend, like those before us

It’s cheesy that “Guardians make their own Fate” and “Make your own legend” are so literal in the Destiny narrative, but that’s like, really funny

We take it for granted because it’s funny epic wording trying to sound super cool, but also it kind of is

Just look at those titles

As well as some of the stuff we’ve been able to claim: we were best buddies with Cayde and got his gun, we worked together with Shun Malphur to take down the Shadows of Yor, brought Osiris back from their exile as well as Saint back from the dead, brokered peace with House Light and the Cabal Empire

[hardy anvil]

Might seem like a dumb question but why is Neomuna more advanced than the Last City and such?

[sick yew]

Cause golden age colony and shit

[hardy anvil]

like in terms of techlogical advancements, they're way ahead

[sick yew]

Practically every place on earth was severely damaged during the collapse

You can see it no matter where you go

[hardy anvil]

oh. I see

[sick yew]

Meanwhile places like Europa or Neomuna were designed to be highly advanced and were largely left alone during the collapse

Neomuna specifically

They were hidden

[hardy anvil]

interesting

[sick yew]

Plus there are people there to actually maintain it

Even Europa fell into disrepair in some places after the collapse

But cause it was also very highly advanced a good bit stayed intact and clean even hundreds of years later

Roombas amiright

[hardy anvil]

[exotic cloak]

Centuries after and little guys still maintaining everything clean

What a legends

[sick yew]

Actual mvps

[signal horizon]

Hello, in the DSC raid Clovis AI talked about how the crypt will be open to all after the descent. Is there any lore entries that talk about what the Vanguard did to contain it, or if any factions have tried to breach the crypt, stuff like that?

[sick yew]

The only thing I can think of from the top of my head was a radio message from Zavala that you can hear at the Strangers camp
It basically says the area around the crypt and the crypt itself is not supposed to be entered by fireteams

[signal horizon]

Appreciated, ty ty.

[exotic cloak]

It is pretty much there

Open

And that's it

[sick yew]

Again thats a radio message from BL itself so its very possible there have been additions on that front over the years

But since we never actually went in there its probably just stuff like "the Fallen have armed themselves with tech from the crypt....kill them"

[exotic cloak]

On Ishtar Collective there's nothing after BL

[trim grotto]

The short answer is that it's patrolled by fireteams, and no.

[sick yew]

something something snail reaction

[exotic cloak]

The only mention I remember after that is Clovis Bray complaining about we destroying it

In Seraph

[sick yew]

As he does

Cry me a river old metal head

[exotic cloak]

You can still hear that in the exotic mission

[exotic cloak]

I mean he has the right to complain we literally destroyed the exo factory

[sick yew]

He does infact not have the right to complain

Hes a dingus

[exotic cloak]

https://tenor.com/view/get-this-man-a-shield-get-this-man-a-true-morgan-freeman-morgan-freeman-true-gif-25958604

[sick yew]

Homie was gonna kill Rasputin
Cant let that slide

...and yeah also the whole other shit he pulled in the golden age

[trim grotto]

Homie was gonna kill the Traveler

[exotic cloak]

Wasn't Eramis

[sick yew]

Braytech Confidentials my nightmare

[sick yew]

She too

[trim grotto]

Her too

[sick yew]

But Clovis aswell

before he got zapped by Raspy

Or Ana

Cant remember

[trim grotto]

Big Bray wanted to do it in the Golden Age
And then Red killed this copy of him in the HELM too

[exotic cloak]

Anyway my bets are on Bungie using the crypt after TFS to tell us Taniks is back

Again

[sick yew]

Id take that

[trim grotto]

Waiting on Scorn Taniks

[sick yew]

Then bro really did it all

[exotic cloak]

If that happens I hope the desing is more

Don't know the word

[sick yew]

"Scorn"?

[exotic cloak]

When I got to appreciate the actual Praksis Scorn desing it was cool

But on Gameplay you don't notice

A lot of people think that the dude at the end of the exotic mission is just Praksis again

[trim grotto]

You want the "Scornness" to be very pronounced

[exotic cloak]

Basically

[trim grotto]

that's fair

[exotic cloak]

See Taniks and said "bro is scorn now"

[sick yew]

Scorn looking like Scorn? Nah

[exotic cloak]

If Eramis and Elsie didn't told me I really wouldn't have thought that Praksis was scorn lol

[sick yew]

Did you not play Seraph?

[exotic cloak]

Was not here I only played the exotic mission

[sick yew]

The exotic mission in which Praksis is indeed scorn?

[exotic cloak]

I started playing like a moth after Lightfall came out

[sick yew]

No more glowy eyes
Obviously scorn

[exotic cloak]

Yeah, like I said desing is actually cool and very different but when you are on gameplay you not notice

[trim grotto]

Look at the Stasis crystals

they're new

[exotic cloak]

Lol until I saw an image I was thinking it was literally just Praksis until I saw it was redesigned

Kridis and Filaks were clearly better options anyway

Praksis may be the techno guy but lol Kridis had servitors giving her shield that would have worked too

[jagged badge]

Phylaks

[exotic cloak]

Thanks

[sick yew]

Atraks anyone?

Literal Exo Eliksni?

Tore the face off their old body so hunters could have one of the most annoying exotics of the BL year?

That Atraks

[velvet flax]

I still feel like 'Once-Phyris' in Heist Battleground: Moon should've been 'Once-Phylaks'

Especially considering Phyris was a friend of Eramis and a warrior

The similarity of the name and prior personality makes me wonder if there was just a misspelling with the name

[exotic cloak]

Yeah but how would you bring back an exo

Her body pretty much got kaboom

Philaks and Kridis were shattered but theres something at least

[sick yew]

I mean she has multiple bodies
One of them might have survived

Jk but still

[exotic cloak]

Considering we pretty much blow up the crypt

And in the final stand she moves all her bodys up

[sick yew]

Bla bla

[exotic cloak]

[sick yew]

[exotic cloak]

You just want Atraks again because she was the only cool character of House Of Salvation

That's fair

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/atraks-gif-24520242

[ember storm]

do you think if I showed a pineapple to the average last city resident they would have a heart attack

[empty fern]

You think if the pineapple was introduced to the golden age, it would be more acidic?

[ember storm]

they lost touch of what it was because of the golden age being filled with nonsensical genetic splicing

like what fucking purpose does a kiwicumber serve

[empty fern]

Same purpose as the dog thing

Cow thing*

And honey dog thing

[ember storm]

wrong

incorrect

[empty fern]

Too bad

[ember storm]

cow thing is a synthesized milk maker

[empty fern]

It’s canon now

[ember storm]

very different

[empty fern]

[chrome fog]

What was the other fruit combo

[empty fern]

Pineapple

[chrome fog]

There's a third one

and maybe a fourth

From that voiceline on Titan

[shadow crypt]

How did Savathun get a ghost?

[chrome fog]

Preplanning

She planned for her worm's removal and then her eventual death after the fact, so she instructed Immaru as well as her Right Hand wizard to find her after she died and get her ressurected as well as caught up on her master plan

[jagged badge]

There is the potentiality that the Traveler had to let Immaru do it, and that Savathûn was still legitimately gambling with her death

[empty fern]

So savathun knows how ghost choose their bearers?

[jagged badge]

Wdym?

[empty fern]

Oh missed the other comment (ignore bad connection)

[chrome fog]

To an extent, no ghost had really tried to resurrect another species aside from humans and there had never really been any sort of widespread good will towards the other races occupying the Sol System until recently, until Savathun was able to gaslight and forcefully coerce a number of Ghosts into resurrecting Hive for her (they had also become sympathetic to the Hive after reading the Books of Sorrow - the whole three princesses only accepting the deal with the worm gods out of fear of their safety thing - which made it easy for them to go along with Sav)

[empty fern]

Neat

[chrome fog]

Eris' point still stands however, though the basis of which is one lore tab where a ghost thought they were being pulled towards a random dreg and instead resurrected the Awoken underneath the dead pile of Eliksni, having let itself be guided by that "pull" all ghosts feel.

The contention from this entry is, should it have resurrected that Eliksni because it believed it was going to resurrect them, or was it just resurrecting the one who they felt pull towards?

[empty fern]

The world may never know, for now

[uneven canyon]

What happened to Felwinter

[empty fern]

Speaking of which

He got sivad

(Image is sending give it a bit)

[uneven canyon]

Tragic

[empty fern]

No he’s not a pillar of fire, but a zombie thing

God I hate this slow connection, bye y’all gonna wait this out

[chrome fog]

The entry in question
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/savin-2#book-ghost-stories

[uneven canyon]

Isn’t he an exo why is he got flesh

[chrome fog]

SIVA

[empty fern]

Siva and synthetic flosh

[chrome fog]

flosh

[uneven canyon]

Why he got defined chin

[empty fern]

Flash, fake flesh

[empty fern]

Reused models I guess

Did they say felwinter was an exo in d1?

[ember storm]

yes

basic answer is bungie just reused the same model

[empty fern]

Oof

[chrome fog]

Wrong one, the Felwinter one has Felwinter's helm on it; also possible that it's him fused with another iron lord, there were more than three Iron Lords present in the replication chamber in the cutscene where Saladin is pushed out

Or I guess, right one

[ember storm]

but the cooler answer is that SIVA was taking flesh from the other corpses and implanting it into Felwinter’s corpse

[chrome fog]

Yeeeaaaahh got it

[ember storm]

there was more than just 3 iron lords in the replication chamber, after all

[empty fern]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-rise-of-iron-gaming-gif-6027234

I couldn’t find a better gif

[ember storm]

post the actual cutscene

lazy

[empty fern]

Hmph

[ember storm]

you’re the one who keeps posting D1 pics

[chrome fog]

Waltz they're having connectivity issues

[ember storm]

why not take selfies with the perma rotting corpses

[chrome fog]

Doubt opening up Youtube will be any easier than just looking for a gif

[empty fern]

https://youtu.be/Z5NCPcvPIO8?si=SfiKtAmH6t28TpmO

[empty fern]

I think it’s good now

[ember storm]

what if I made grilled cheese

[empty fern]

Sea th

[chrome fog]

Possibly tasty, possibly disappointing

[empty fern]

Death

Gtg, phone charge

[exotic cloak]

Now that I think

Last City is on Chile, right?

[jagged badge]

We know it’s in South America generally

Any specifics are conflicting and unclear

[exotic cloak]

All about EDZ refuges and Shaw Han expecting we reach South America from Russia is so confusing

[jagged badge]

Shaw Han is a dumb dumb

[exotic cloak]

Bro uses khvostov so I don't know what I was expecting

[ember storm]

sparrows are probably able to float above water

[jagged badge]

I mean

Maybe

[ember storm]

your guardian spontaneously combusting from driving out from shore is a gameplay mechanic

not actually real

on the topic of EDZ refugees, Hawthorne specifically mentions how it’s going to be a long flight over the ocean from the outskirts of the city to the farm

[jagged badge]

But the trek across several continents is still too much to ask from a sparrow

[ember storm]

Andal Brask swam

from all accounts Shaw’s idea would’ve been lucky

our guardian finding an actually functional ship that only needed one additional part for space travel was about as lucky as you could get

honestly surprised there’s not some kind of Uber service for new lights who need a ride to the last city

[chrome fog]

Don’t we find a ship like not too far from where we Rez?

[spiral crane]

What is the average lifespan of a hive

I know in the beginning it was like 10

But has it changed?

[jagged badge]

Some Hive we know have lived millennia longer than the Earth even existed

[spiral crane]

So in the billions?

Is this all hive?

Or just powerful ones

[exotic cloak]

I can imagine a Thrall surviving centuries to just die to a random punch

That's pathetic

[empty fern]

They are frail

[chrome fog]

To put it into reference, Crota and his brood hid themselves in the Moon before humans even evolved. And there had been countless millennia before that Crota was traipsing around with his dad and his aunts.

[spiral crane]

So there were there for the moon landing

Luckily Armstrong didn’t get eviserated

[chrome fog]

They didn't wake up until the Collapse fortunately

[ember storm]

essentially immortal, so long as their worm is fed

[chrome fog]

Their life is constantly feeding Devour, until devour eats them

Uh, Devour as in the Void perk, realizing that might mislead someone unless clarified

[ember storm]

theyre sustained by the song dwayne johnson made

[spiral crane]

Does every hive have a work

Worm

[jagged badge]

Other than Lightbearers, yeah

[chrome fog]

Yes, generally they receive one - as in, they get their worm to burrow into their being - shortly after they grow out of the Thrall stage into Acolyte

[spiral crane]

lucent hive?

[chrome fog]

Only the Lightbearers, as they have already died before and their worm along with their corpse

[spiral crane]

So did all of them look like thralls when they were krill

[spiral crane]

The idea of a race so obsessed with the dark abandoning it for the light is fascinating

[chrome fog]

More like Acolytes; we do have that cutscene of the three sisters as our only present visual representation of the Krill

[spiral crane]

What did their home planet look like

I’ve heard it was a gas giant but they mention seas

And continents

[chrome fog]

In fairness that was the whole deal of Savathun, to find loopholes and exploits to take advantage of in service to her own power. Light and Darkness are just tools to achieve an end goal

[chrome fog]

https://youtu.be/rbDn9NGbKO4?si=Q2a9-8jCt4ZsN94A

[spiral crane]

I’m guessing the witness didn’t like that

[errant olive]

iirc, that was the reason why Rhulk was sent to babysit Savathun in her throne world, so that she would stay loyal to the Witness

[chrome fog]

The Hive were just another set of forces it could send out to wreak havoc, essentially soldiers duped into the Witness’ service

Having a God of Cunning who’s whole deal is to be smarter than everyone else around them and trick them - else she die to her worm’s hunger, which was happening at the end of Splicer and was mitigated and then cured of in Lost - does not make for a loyal follower unless you surveil their every move and bribe them with promotion to Disciple

[spiral crane]

Tbh I’m not the biggest fan of hie the witness looks

The black robes are cool and I like the vapor of faces

But its face looks a little funny

[exotic cloak]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny2-destiny-witness-me-when-on-my-way-gif-27570628

[shadow crypt]

Any very dark pieces of lore someone can share? 👀

[trim grotto]

Well, there's... like, this entire book.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-bray-lab-records-confidential

[shadow crypt]

Who’s JW?

[trim grotto]

J. Wong, as per the Identity header at the top of the entry.

[jagged badge]

Jurassic World

[spiral crane]

Why didn’t Neptune fall?

[trim grotto]

It wasn't a colony at the time, ironically.

Neomuna was founded mid Collapse by the Exodus Indigo colony ship, fleeing the Collapse.

[exotic cloak]

Everything was going shit and then bros on Neptune causally made their own city

[trim grotto]

The Vex interference and natural storms hid them and sheltered them from the remainder of the Collapse.

[spiral crane]

Bro 💀

So are they more technologically advanced than the gold he

Golden age

[gentle geyser]

Well yea

[trim grotto]

Pretty much, yes. They had their technology, their SIVA to make their city, their history. They just had to war against the Vex and survive the planet.

[spiral crane]

So they’re more technologically advanced than us

[gentle geyser]

Yes

[trim grotto]

Indeed.

[spiral crane]

So why did they just stay on Neptune

[gentle geyser]

Because it was safe??

[spiral crane]

And not help the situation on earth

[gentle geyser]

They just simply wanted to stay isolated

[spiral crane]

Did they not think they could survive fights with the other factions

[trim grotto]

I've got lore I can answer you with but right now I'm eating a delicious breakfast at a cafe
So I'll get back to you in an hour or so

[spiral crane]

Aight

Enjoy ur breakfast

[exotic cloak]

Mael will give you the actual explanation after but think they even thought the next time they will reconnect with us would be to fight

[jagged badge]

They saw Lightbearing Warlords oppressing the peoples of Earth and feared what could happen to Neomuna if Warlords turned their sights there

[exotic cloak]

Yeah that basically

[spiral crane]

But we’re like medival

And they’re past golden age

[gentle geyser]

No we aren’t

[spiral crane]

I thought we got regressed back to a medival stage

[gentle geyser]

No?

[spiral crane]

That’s what people have said in this channel to me

That we regressed back to a medival kind of era after the collapse

[gentle geyser]

Even in our current state the last city is leagues ahead of current day technology

[jagged badge]

They’re talking the Dark Age

[gentle geyser]

Well then again, the warlord comment

They didn’t want to deal with warlord Lightbearers

[jagged badge]

But even then it wasn’t entirely “medieval”. There were still guns and tech and such around. Humanity on Earth didn’t have to rediscover and reinvent tech and science all the way up to a Golden Age level

Every chance Warlords could eventually discover and repair jumpships that could go to Neomuna

[gentle geyser]

Tbf its shocking that we only now found out about neomuna

[spiral crane]

Were the lightbearer warlords that scary?

[gentle geyser]

Think about how scary our guardian now is

[jagged badge]

Wouldn’t you be scared of a dictator who could throw a sun at you and then come back if you managed to kill them?

[spiral crane]

Fair point

Why were there warlords in the first place. Wouldn’t the ghosts want ppl that would be nicer

[jagged badge]

They can’t guarantee how a Lightbearer’s personality will be and how it could be shaped by the world around them

And maybe some Ghosts just figured they had to bring back people who were strong

Ghosts weren’t really given instructions by the Traveler

[jagged badge]

Why’s that?

[gentle geyser]

I mean we traveled to other systems and other planets in our solar system, you’d think we’d discover neomuna sooner

[jagged badge]

We have not traveled to other systems

Neptune is the furthest out in our Solar System we’ve ever been, and it’s pretty far out. When Guardians are fighting for territory on Earth alone, they aren’t going as far as Neptune

[exotic cloak]

Ghost can't choose the personality of it's lightbearer

And some ghost were actually assholes

[jagged badge]

Not to mention, even if they went to Neptune, they wouldn’t have found Neomuna

The Vex obscured it iirc. When the Hidden did a sweep of Neptune after Osiris’ vision, they found nothing

[spiral crane]

Travler isn’t big on communication

It seems

[jagged badge]

Lemme get a picture to show what I mean

[gentle geyser]

Im good

[spiral crane]

Can’t they revoke the light if they want

[gentle geyser]

No

[exotic cloak]

She doesn't have a lot of ways to communicate

[shadow warren]

No

[spiral crane]

Really?

[gentle geyser]

Yep

[spiral crane]

That’s kind of dumb

[exotic cloak]

She can't even control ghost

[shadow warren]

No instance of that was ever mentioned

Idk if it was explicitly stated that they cant do that

Has there been?

[jagged badge]

Saturn is as far as we’ve ever been before we followed Calus to Neptune

[exotic cloak]

I mean a Ghost can just

[shadow warren]

Off itself

[jagged badge]

It can

[exotic cloak]

Rehuse to resurrect it's lightbearer

But again

[jagged badge]

The Traveler speaks through and then explodes a Ghost who Rhulk was talking to

[spiral crane]

Looking at that made me realize that many of the actual celestial bodies we can access now are just moons

[gentle geyser]

The most available instance of this is the lore audio from grasp of av

[exotic cloak]

A lot of ghost were assholes

[exotic cloak]

Damn

Well our Ghost lied

I think it was in BL little bro said Traveler can't control him

[spiral crane]

Maybe he’s just stupid

[jagged badge]

Even if that’s true, there’s a good chance he simply didn’t know it could because it never had before

[gentle geyser]

I don’t trust what our little bro says he’s special

[exotic cloak]

He insulted Fynch

In that moment he stopped being a bro

[spiral crane]

Fynch should be our new ghost

[exotic cloak]

Finally, someone who agrees on that

[jagged badge]

[exotic cloak]

Anyway that's impossible and even if it was would pretty much end with us losing our memories

Again

[gentle geyser]

Round two baby

[spiral crane]

Not like we’re losing anything rlly special

Just alot of fighting

[jagged badge]

No??

[exotic cloak]

Nine Years

[jagged badge]

We’d be losing a decade of friendships and bonds we’ve forged

Our connections to so many people

[shadow warren]

Are fighting instincts innate in guardians

[exotic cloak]

I mean

[shadow warren]

Or are we reborn as noobs

[exotic cloak]

I guess they exist but at the end we are still just the guys doing the job

Damn until Forsaken we didn't even speak

[exotic cloak]

Well you had to learn light and Ghost had to explain you how to shit

[spiral crane]

Well my guardian hasn’t done any of that yet lol

He won’t be missing g much

[exotic cloak]

Young Wolf did that and your guardian is the young wolf

Anyway consider that would be years of important events and experiences

And knowledge

You can't just die and expect to be back and get that nine years of experience again

[gentle geyser]

Doesn’t the new light campaign technically break continuity because of the cosmodrome being repaired

[exotic cloak]

There's also some conflict on Fynch being our new ghost, damn I even think if he would

Imagine you die, ghost dies and for some reason you can be back, Fynch still wants to get his knight back

Damn even in Dawning he says he maybe will bring him back to share the cookie

Well that Fynch being our ghost is bad decision, is not happening and breaks a lot of things

[spiral crane]

Isn’t he a hive?

[spiral crane]

It was?

[exotic cloak]

Yeah a Knight

[spiral crane]

Why would he want him revived

Wouldn’t he be dangerous

[exotic cloak]

https://youtu.be/vmVU4MPczuU?si=SEac9tBcFaTO_ROJ
https://youtu.be/ZTJd4pLjdDQ?si=nXGJKBfSPECNI8as

I guess is something like stockholm syndrome

[jagged badge]

Not a thing

Btw

[exotic cloak]

I don't remember when but someone here told me Fynch apparently believes he can convince his knight to be good but I don't remember that being suggested

So I just think that

[jagged badge]

No I mean Stockholm Syndrome is not a thing

Not a legitimate thing anyway

[exotic cloak]

Oh damn

[spiral crane]

Rlly?

[exotic cloak]

Yeah just checked and there's not enough research and methods are sus, is very controversial in phycology community it seems

Anyway as Fynch said he thought he mattered, I guess that feeling still doesn't abandon him and the fact that we just don't interact with him after WQ in any way probably made that feeling come back or even worse, maybe

There's nothing much to say is just a mere dialogue at the end

[spiral crane]

We never talk with him after which queen?

Damn

[exotic cloak]

Nope

Not even in S22

He and Nimbus are pretty much getting silence treatment

Forever

[spiral crane]

Nimbus I don’t gaf about

But fynch deserves better

[versed orbit]

Nimbus the greatest character in fiction

[chrome fog]

Yeah, the whole point is having faith in others to do the right thing given power to do so

[spiral crane]

Lmao

[chrome fog]

She very much can speak through a Ghost and remotely self destruct them, she did once to prevent Rhulk from digging into the Ghost and gaining that connection to the Light

Oh wait Eris said already damn

[trim grotto]

[chrome fog]

Hi mael

[trim grotto]

howdee

[dim minnow]

you know what that means

[trim grotto]

[spiral crane]

Mb I meant to put that in shard or keep

[trim grotto]

sorry we have to ban you now
bungie pinkertons are on their way to your home

[chrome fog]

Hope we get to hear more from Fynch and Ken, understand they can’t really do anything about Ken going on good behavior since new players might get confused it’ll be a whole thing of “why can’t they just program it so Ken’s a pile of bones if they haven’t done this thing yet and he’s a full modeled guy if you have”

At least Fynch got to feature in the Festival of the Lost story last year

[grand jungle]

how did saint feel bout osris getting kicked out of the last city?

[dim minnow]

Saint wasn't exactly on his side at that point

[grand jungle]

couple type drama?

[dim minnow]

Saint aligned more with the Speaker who was very against Osiris' prophecies

[grand jungle]

oh didnt know speaker n saint knew each other

[dim minnow]

their relationship was sort of father-son

[trim grotto]

Saint-14 was like the Speaker's son.

[dim minnow]

though maybe in a more religous context

[trim grotto]

Saint thought of him as a father.

[grand jungle]

saint musta been pissed at ghual for killing em then

[dim minnow]

he was dead at the time so he didn't know until he came back to the Last City a few years after

[grand jungle]

when was saint n osris got toghter?

[dim minnow]

Saint and Osiris were together for a long time apparently

[eager trout]

What's the Vex milk supposed to be?

[trim grotto]

Radiolarian Fluid!

Chemically, the Vex milk is an alkaline solution of dense salts in water. The salts range from sodium and calcium to lead and even (in barely detectable amounts) plutonium. Not good to drink.

Suspended in this solution are cells in solicoid structure, 100-200 micrometers in size. Their shapes are heterogenous but always geometric, reminiscent of Earth’s radiolarian protozoa. Many have needle-like pseudopods, which transform between stiff spines and motile whips on the basis of some piezoelectric response. Imaging of internal structure detects a nucleus, and a genetic molecule analogous to SNA (though i speculate read-write times are much faster, on the order of milliseconds, perhaps exploiting some quantum effect).```

The Vex aren't the mechanical chassis that walk around - rather, they are the Radiolaria suspended within the fluid, these microscopic beings.

In other words, the milk is that which holds the Vex.

[chrome fog]

Mmmmm would the non-Newtonian property of the Radiolaria still allow for the waterfalls to flow like they do?

[dim minnow]

"The fluid itself is not the Vex. If their consciousness could be contained in such a state, it would have manifested in other states by now."

[trim grotto]

Very early, they must have developed armor. Perhaps a hydrogel to soften gamma rays or plates of silica to trap water. They would need that shield to enter the shallows and capture ionizing radiation as fuel. (No wonder they thrive near stars.) Cooperation in groups—meshes of armored radiolaria, protecting harvesters beneath—would promote the evolution of ever larger structures. They became microscopic tool—users, building fortresses and maille sheets, storing the programs for those structures in the patterns of their swarms.

I wonder how early they stumbled upon physics. Far sooner than humanity, no doubt. Their cellular nature provides an easy analogy for the quanta of matter, energy, space, and time. The tides of their sea would connect them to the motion of heavenly bodies. Even the deadly background radiation would make a natural observatory for high—energy physics.

Their first exoskeletons were probably soft shells of shielding gelatin. Just sacs of ooze. How far they’ve come.```
The fluid isn't the Vex, but it *contains* the cellular Vex. It is, in a way, their true chassis before the robot frames themselves.

I would simply suggest that Ikora may be incorrect in her assessment.

After all, the very next line of your quote...
"Perhaps Lakshmi's device is the key. Was I wrong to dismiss it?" She chuckles. She does that a lot more, lately. "Probably. I was wrong about a lot of things."

[dim minnow]

I'd prefer the idea that the Vex themselves are the patterns housed within

[trim grotto]

Vex can and do exist as pure data, that is true.

[eager trout]

So nothing really dies when we "kill" a Vex (unless we disintegrate it)

[trim grotto]

The Radiolaria are like a computer with encoded data. That data can be transferred.

[eager trout]

So the Vex are an algorithm

[trim grotto]

In a way.

[eager trout]

Nothing is stopping us from drinking the radiolarian fluid and gaining a Vex subclass

[trim grotto]

Ever heard of Kabr the Legionless

[eager trout]

No

Imagine after the Light vs Darkness saga they give us subclasses based on a different aliens

And the Cabal subclass is just about big guns

[trim grotto]

Kabr the Legionless and his fireteam ventured into the Vault of Glass.

I have destroyed myself to do this. They have taken my Ghost. They are in my blood and brain. But now there is hope.

I have made a wound in the Vault. I have pierced it and let in the Light. Bathe in it, and be cleansed. Look to it, and understand:

From my own Light and from the thinking flesh of the Vex I made a shield. The shield is your deliverance. It will break the unbreakable. It will change your fate.

Bind yourself to the shield. Bind yourself to me. And if you abandon your purpose, let the Vault consume you, as it consumed me.

Now it is done. If I speak again, I am not Kabr.```

And these are his last thoughts

case Past:

return( i m p o s s i b l e )

// grazing, rocked, major, distilled.

case Present:

return( v e s t i g i a l )

// vault, aegis, awakened, infinite.

case Future:

// return( i n e v i t a b l e )

// light, truth, dark.

if( t h e w a r d e n s s e e t h e BRIGHT a s d e a t h ) &&

( t h e THINKERS e q u a t e BLACK w i t h e n d ) then

^K^K

their/our/their desire is not malevolent it is survival she is/was/is wrong there is no evil there is no despise there is no SEPARATION there is harmony inside if you/you/you allow it

it was/was/was not done i/i speak again and was wrong i am still him and i am now them and THAT IS FUTURE^V^V```

Do not drink the milk

[dim minnow]

Kabr is main villain in Echoes?

[trim grotto]

I... doubt it.

[dim minnow]

we don't trust him

he said it himself

if he speaks again, do not trust it

it is not him

[gentle geyser]

How would that even work on a scientific level

[eager trout]

Guardian using tech from the aliens

[dim minnow]

that's us using armor and guns from them

[trim grotto]

well yeah
he's just a vex now

[dim minnow]

I'm pretty sure there are some exotic armor pieces that use technology/magic from other races

[gentle geyser]

We already have like half their weapons as exotics

[dim minnow]

and in terms of other stuff, we've used Splicer Gauntlets before

[eager trout]

What if the next Darkness subclass is related to Nightmares?

[dim minnow]

not this again

[eager trout]

What are those?

[gentle geyser]

Doubt

[dim minnow]

FOR THE LAST TIME, NIGHTMARES ARE A FORM OF DEEPSIGHT

[dim minnow]

they allow Eliksni Splicers to interact with technology

[gentle geyser]

We’ve also done enough with nightmares

[eager trout]

But caused by the pyramid

[dim minnow]

by Nezarec's Pyramid

and we already have Deepsight

[trim grotto]

Well, not solely his. The Europan one, too.

[gentle geyser]

Aren’t the current darkness subclasses just opposites at least on a visual and physical level so far?

Whatever the third is it’ll probably be a new element, explaining why the witness doesn’t have it in his army

[dim minnow]

sort of

Solar isn't neccessarily fire and Stasis isn't ice

and both are pretty different physics-wise

[gentle geyser]

I mean on a non lore level

To the player, aren’t strand and stasis opposites

[eager trout]

They're opposites. Nuclear fusion is what keeps the universe going, entropy is what stops it

Arc and Strand are opposites but similar in that one keeps the physical universe together, while the other keeps the abstract/mental/non-physical part together

[gentle geyser]

Arc and strand aren’t related

Strand is the opposite of void

Which leaves arc as the outlier

[eager trout]

How?

[eager trout]

How this

If Darkness represents the mind and the abstract, what if we get an imagination subclass?

[gentle geyser]

Color wise strand is the opposite of void and you can make a better case for it being opposite of void than arc

[eager trout]

Which is...?

[gentle geyser]

Im too lazy to care but the biggest defining trait is that the current subclasses are directly opposites in terms of color for a fact

[eager trout]

Isn't green opposite of red?

And purple of yellow?

[gentle geyser]

Guh

No, if you reverse the colors of the subclasses it shows what the opposite is

Solar and void equal out into stasis and strand

[eager trout]

What color does Arc become?

[gentle geyser]

Strand is also similar to void with key differences gameplay wise

[eager trout]

I see no similarities

Both are crowd control in a way, but that's it

[gentle geyser]

Both have the concept of binding the enemy, void is about weakening, strand gives you defense, etc

[eager trout]

How are Solar and Stasis opposites gameplay-wise?

[gentle geyser]

Im pretty sure thats self explanatory

[eager trout]

Fire vs ice, yes

They're both versatile

But Solar is more destructive, while Stasis is more defensive

[gentle geyser]

You haven’t used stasis much I see

[chrome fog]

Connection that is not seen (connecting psychic fabrics as well as the near omnipresence of electromagnetic energy in the universe) VS separation that is observable (you don’t necessarily see vacuums or pits of potential energy because they are precisely that, gaps in space which surrounding energy and/or mass floods in to fill)

You might also use this to directly contrast Solar with Void, as Solar permitting control over fission and fusion (which btw fire is a very small and drawn out example of) more directly contrasts Void being the addition of kinetic energy

There’s a lot of scientific and emotional/mental state overlaps and contrasts between all the subclasses,which the addition of strand demonstrates that they do not need to necessarily be direct opposites to each other, moreso complimentary

[gentle geyser]

Thx

[chrome fog]

It was a hell of a time trying to theorize the second Darkness element, and legitimately we had taken color theory into consideration; once we had gotten past Witch Queen as well, we had taken notice of one mural (or maybe multiple I can’t remember) that seemingly hinted at the colors which the next subclasses would be, which we then tried to use to theorize what sort of physics concept would be associated with said colors

Strand was one hell of a curveball

Wish I still had some of the theories from that time, it’s unfortunate that the server had to get wiped between now and then

[gentle geyser]

Whatever the next one is it sure will be different

Both darkness subclasses are extremely different to the light subclasses

[hardy anvil]

so when we enter an activity with limited revives? how does that work?

is that darkness so powerful that it just limits the amount of revives or something?

or is this just a gameplay thing that was never elaborated on

[chrome fog]

Gameplay thing; also the Darkness is no longer a sentient evil force, it is just another aspect of Paracausality

[trim grotto]

Mostly just gameplay, but there are reasonable deductions we can make to attribute to it.

Darkness Zones are actual things in lore, with two separate yet not exclusive explanations attributed to them.

Having limited revives could fairly easily be slotted under a parallel concept.

[shadow crypt]

Can Guardians pop their super rapidly in the Lore?

[errant olive]

ikora did so in the last wq mission

[jagged badge]

Depends on the ability of the individual Guardian

Guardians like Ikora can use back to back supers sometimes. However we see other Guardians attempt to use a super and realise it’s still “on cooldown”

[eager trout]

Defensive in that it has a lot of fragments with defensive capabilities, and Stasis crystals block damage

[eager trout]

What did the mural show?

[exotic cloak]

I mean gameplay wise I wouldn't say they are opposites

Except in the fact that stasis is "ice", is not

[chrome fog]

This is the main one

[eager trout]

Oh

What is it suppose to represent?

Wait, the hexagons on the right are green, yellow, and blue

So Stasis and Strand

And yellow is...SAND SUBCLASS??

[chrome fog]

Or something else yellow colored, or maybe it’s not yellow at all when they make it

[fast tapir]

sand subclass would go hard

titan super is a big sand castle

[calm granite]

piss subclass real

[fast tapir]

🤨

[dusty jolt]

New subclass makes us earth benders?

[jagged badge]

[exotic cloak]

Would be cool but we gotta be realistic there's no new subclass

I'm surprised we even got new supers

[trim grotto]

I would insist that you speak no further

For a variety of reasons including your own benefit

In fact, it'd be better if this was outright deleted.

[eager trout]

SIVA subclass

[exotic cloak]

Me when nanomachines turn into a form of paracausal energy

[eager trout]

What if SIVA has been secretly pulling the strings? (On a smaller scale than the Witness)

[jagged badge]

[trim grotto]

Me when SIVA has already been improved upon and made redundant by the Neomuni

[eager trout]

Hive subclass

[trim grotto]

That's what everyone said Strand would be
Look how that went

Bungie aren't going to make a faction subclass
They make original subclasses we could scarcely predict

Nobody guessed we'd be physically manifesting connecting threads of the quilt of consciousness between sentient beings

Yet here we are

[eager trout]

There was probably someone who expected it to be related to quantum strings

Which is halfway there

[trim grotto]

That's a stretch at best.

[eager trout]

I mean, they're both strings

That's halfway there

[exotic cloak]

I may say some concepts of the next subclass are very funny

[eager trout]

Sand subclass would be great

[exotic cloak]

Some are actually nice but when I read other is just "dude we already have that"

[trim grotto]

[gentle geyser]

The problem is there really isn’t many options for a new subclass

We kinda have everything

[eager trout]

Strand was just Bungie's way of adding Green Lantern powers to the game (both are green, and related to the mind)

[jagged badge]

That’s just wildly not true

There is infinite potential for wacky things they could make into a subclass

[trim grotto]

Half of Gunslinger is just throwing knives at things. They can add other things.

[exotic cloak]

Lol

There's like

Infinite possibilities

[eager trout]

The other half is guns

[gentle geyser]

Then come up with one

[jagged badge]

They’re really not that similar

[errant olive]

the other half is explosions

[eager trout]

Bro using that Titan math

[exotic cloak]

Earth, Air or Water similar subclass

[gentle geyser]

And what are they actually going to do

[eager trout]

Sand

[exotic cloak]

Nightmare subclass
Disciple based subclass with something like roots or Rhulk powers

[gentle geyser]

No

[exotic cloak]

Imagine the possibilities

[errant olive]

born to bonk, forced to knife

[jagged badge]

I don’t know why you’re acting like this tbh

[exotic cloak]

But again we getting no shit

[eager trout]

Water could easily be made into something like dark matter

[trim grotto]

I think going from "there's room for more subclasses" to "make an entire subclass for me to prove it" is a bit bad faith

[jagged badge]

Clearly from what we got with Strand, Bungie can be pretty imaginative with what they can cook up, both in terms of gameplay and all the lore around it

[gentle geyser]

Its easy to just throw ideas at something but Im not seeing actual thought out stuff from those

[exotic cloak]

I mean if you have me some minutes I actually can lol

[jagged badge]

That’s not the job of anyone here

[eager trout]

Sand can be atoms (if Light) or imagination (if Dark)

[gentle geyser]

Why throw ideas around if one can not work

[jagged badge]

Dude, we’re just telling you the simple fact that there are many things they could still do for subclasses

[gentle geyser]

Like?

[eager trout]

We could be getting subclasses that are a combination of Light and Darkness. Like things that require both physical and abstract concepts combined to exist.

[jagged badge]

I don’t know, I can’t see the damn future

[gentle geyser]

[jagged badge]

I’m not putting thought into it because I don’t care to speculate wildly like that

You’re missing the point completely

[gentle geyser]

Then stop messaging me

[jagged badge]

Jesus…

[trim grotto]

I think - and bear with me here - that the other two are just having fun. Eris and I are just saying there's room for more.

Demanding that, to prove this, we make a subclass is silly. It's silly, really. This is a discord channel, not a dev studio.

So instead I am going to go sleep because its a strange hill to die on.

[jagged badge]

G’night

[chrome fog]

We really did not

[eager trout]

I mean someone, somewhere

[chrome fog]

There’s always a possibility one person was thinking of something similar to Strand but generally, when theorizing on the next subclass we did not see it coming

A major one was thinking that Deepsight and the Nightmares might get elaborated into a subclass of their own, since Bungie did mention that Deepsight was what remained after trying to conceptualize the subclass they wanted to and failed to make for Witch Queen

[eager trout]

Plant-based information subclass
Water-based dark matter subclass
Sand-based atom/imagination subclass
Something about dreams

[chrome fog]

Compounded also by the Haunted season going back to Nightmares and the possibility of cleansing them into memories; maybe we’d get some Jojo Stand stuff

[eager trout]

Insight

Memories

Observation

[chrome fog]

But yeah it’s totally possible someone was thinking of Strand exactly as it came when theorizing the next subclass

[eager trout]

What Haunted season?

Also, a memory-based subclass could be made with that

But I don't see how deepsight would fall into that

[eager trout]

What about a memory-based subclass where we use the abilities of our greatest enemies from the past?

[velvet flax]

I just don't see Bungie doing that tbh

[chrome fog]

Season of the Haunted

[velvet flax]

The most obvious new subclass would be a Resonance Subclass

Though I also see bungie doing something completely different like what they did with Strand

[eager trout]

When is it coming?

[eager trout]

How is it obvious? What even is that?

[velvet flax]

Resonance is the stuff the Disciples of the Witness (and the Witness) use

the orange/black/red/yellow swirly darkness stuff

[ember storm]

what would that even include

driving a siege engine off a wall?

[eager trout]

Which does....?

[chrome fog]

And that’s very hard to conceptualize considering 1) we’re capable of doing the same attacks our enemies can because Bungie is able to condense the mechanics of their attacks into guns, and 2) some of their powers are inaccessible to us such as Taking or Resonance, though the latter is probably more achievable

[chrome fog]

it already came, it was a season during Witch Queen’s release year

[ember storm]

the orange resonance energy seems to be the same kind of basic darkness as the white/blue light energy we commonly see

[velvet flax]

Id look up The Caretaker and Rhulk to get an idea

[ember storm]

it doesn’t have a specific purpose

it’s just what it does

[velvet flax]

Hell, even Calus

[ember storm]

stuff like the light subclasses and stasis are a lot more specific

[velvet flax]

yeah thats fair

[ember storm]

made with specific purpose and intent in mind

[eager trout]

By abilities I just meant their moves and stuff. Like things we've seen them do. We draw power from our memories of them.

[chrome fog]

Dova’s theorized that it’s the weaponize Light that the Witness species was able to use (the “they knew the destructive properties of Light” tidbit)

[velvet flax]

That just wouldnt work in terms of how the game is designed

[chrome fog]

Yeah, and like I mentioned in that message we already have their attacks in the form of a gun or they’re abilities are just not accessible to us at all

[ember storm]

there’s like two people we’ve fought who had entirely unique abilities and uh

yknow

[eager trout]

Ok then let's just keep thinking around the "draw power from memories" idea

[ember storm]

those didn’t really help them when we fought them

[chrome fog]

We have the Hive Boomer and a Taken Blight as grenade launchers

[ember storm]

we literally have the deathsong materialized in a rocket launcher

it doesn’t get more metal than that

[chrome fog]

We have the Mythoclast somewhat mimicking the same fire as a Vex Slaprifle

[ember storm]

vex just don’t know how to hold the trigger down

trust

[chrome fog]

Skyburner and Lord of Wolves are just stolen from the Cabal and Fallen

[velvet flax]

actually ik what subclass it is

s

i

v

[ember storm]

it’s Baja blast poison

real and true

[velvet flax]

siva subclass real and true