📚lore-discussion

[trim grotto]

you will find naught but dust

[fresh zephyr]

oh, bro. let me show you how something real quick

im an og. ive been there since the beginning. i know what each single one means already

the investment i put in for it just to be bullshit

but the ones that arent, damn. worth it

like the crying audio and sirens

[trim grotto]

i'm here for lore, not a discussion on game quality
there's enough of that going around as it is

[fresh zephyr]

no one said you couldnt

what do you think that meant, bullshit because of what we started making up to explain the lore

[trim grotto]

i thought it was referring to the game state, since as I said, there's a lot of that going around
my mistake

[fresh zephyr]

all the time spent, oh look flying animal on planet. :hmm must be the wish dragons"

most of it was on reddit though, all the theory posts

you do still get the audio "i saw what happened" in-game

[trim grotto]

A common theory, but flawed from the get go, considering they were described as extinct from very early on. Curious creatures, though.

"Batadactyl", unofficially. No real reference in-lore off the top of my head.

[trim grotto]

When you refer to this, are you referring to one of the idle dialogue lines from NPCs, or is this referring to the auditory pareidolia of the generic whispers that happen in various areas of the game?

[fresh zephyr]

the generic ones. must mean something right?

[trim grotto]

Not by any measure we know, no.
As far as we can tell, it's simply auditory pareidolia. They're generic whispers that do not speak any real words, creating an ominous atmosphere.

[fresh zephyr]

no it does

the words are clearly there

i thought it was bullshit too but i needed to know so i made sure

[trim grotto]

Not so clearly. I've listened to the whispers too, and many more like it. Many people hear words, many people don't.

There's no given meaning to them, nothing has ever been linked to them either.

It simply seems to be ambiance.

Auditory pareidolia is the process wherein the human mind hears words where there are not actual words, like how standard visual pareidolia is seeing a pattern where there is none.

To quote my friend Sarsion, "There are definitely utterances of phonemes, but they're like the Yanny/Laurel thing.".

"Your brain is trying to make sense of something that isn't there."

[fresh zephyr]

see look

[trim grotto]

Yes, as I said, I've listened to the whispers.

[trim grotto]

That's where this quote comes in

[fresh zephyr]

but there is something there

it doesnt always play

[trim grotto]

Anything I say in response would be repeating earlier statements of ambiance and pattern recognition

[fresh zephyr]

might not mean anything anymore, but it is there. and sounds like its saying that

shit maybe, maybe it is just that. our imaginations

but imma go with the cooler one

[trim grotto]

As far as I and others I've researched this alongside of can tell (including Sarsion who has significant experience with pattern recognition and language, and Eruke, who has significant experience with the voice lines of the game), there's nothing more to it than creepy atmosphere.

[fresh zephyr]

im already invested dammit imma choose to believe

[trim grotto]

The whispers have utterances of phonemes, they sound like words, but actually aren't, in other words

[fresh zephyr]

have you heard the sirens and crying audio they datamined?

[trim grotto]

That is up to you, certainly.

[blazing wasp]

Last time someone thought the random gibberish had a meaning, they theorised we were actually made from darkness.

[blazing wasp]

Datamined stuff is heavily dubious in validity

[fresh zephyr]

i know that reference

some random hive "the darkness"

oh shit we might be the evil ones

[blazing wasp]

No im talking about matpat.

Game theory

[fresh zephyr]

oh the other one

we're so smart

[trim grotto]

I imagine Sarsion might know. I've probably heard it at some point, but I don't recall.

Regardless, I don't have a particularly vested interest in datamined content.

[blazing wasp]

Reminds me of the datamined content of us killing crow

[trim grotto]

[blazing wasp]

Which uh

Did not happen.

And was just bullshit to get attention

[fresh zephyr]

the sirens was apparently how it sounded when the darkness first approached earth

its just unused game assets

[trim grotto]

According to what?

Or whom, perhaps

[fresh zephyr]

“Like machines being compressed and stretched at the same time”

something like that

[blazing wasp]

Like springtrap from fnaf3

[trim grotto]

...the Black Armory Papers?

Last night we awoke in the middle of the night to the sound of something pounding on the walls. It roared and stomped and howled in frustration… until it found the doors. They didn't hold.

I never saw it. We were too occupied blindly firing around a corner. I just remember the smell of wet earth, and a sound I've never heard before. Like a machine being stretched and then compressed.

When it was over, we'd lost members of our Black Armory family and the thing—whatever it was—got away.

I lost one of my sisters. Helga…

We had our problems, but she was right about so many things. I know that now.

I wish I could have told her.```

[fresh zephyr]

apparently. used for the evacuations

man, tv show about the collapse would be sick

[trim grotto]

Right, but, where does this definition come from in relation to a siren? We have reason to believe that this entry actually refers to a member of the Hive.

Or evacuations for that matter

[fresh zephyr]

yeah its been a while

i kinda stopped looking things up after things ended up not how i wanted them to be

cant handle the pain anymote

[trim grotto]

I'm more interested in learning how things are or will be, rather than seeing them end up in a particular way.

[fresh zephyr]

oh me too trust, but i still need to know

where it all goes, how it ends

its kinda annoying and a habit of sorts. read a book, like it, then the need to know how it ends overwhelms so ill jump to reading the ending

then the interest in reading the rest is gone

and then i get sad about it because damn, i liked how that felt. now i dont care, since i already know

[peak coral]

bro on his way to get banned

(i didnt report)

[jagged badge]

Who’s that? Sounds like a silly billy

[chrome fog]

We don’t vibe much but I’ll always remember big braining what the Witness’ potential goal is

Genuinely a great moment (feat Lux, Glam, and Sars)

[exotic cloak]

Hey, did Drifter ever use his light in-game?

In some cinematic or something

[jagged badge]

Dunno about in-game but there is a Beyond Light trailer where he uses Solar

Oh wait

Old Gambit intros. He makes the Jade coin burst aflame too

[exotic cloak]

Thanks

[safe galleon]

reminds me of how people hear intelligible dialogue in all kinds of fromsoft game OST tracks with choirs in them, despite the fact none of them (save for bloodborne [currently as confirmed by a music producer who worked on the game], for some reason) have actual lyrics

would assume its the same as that music; a system of fabricated syllables made to sound like words to the ear, in this case with several different configurations for variety and some additional smoke-and-mirrors audio mixing to mask the fact that they're clearly nonsense

because trust me, this late into a game's life cycle, if there were anything of substance to the whispers, someone would have 1000% dug into them, isolated them, cleared them up, and shared it with the community by now

and if you don't agree, i don't think you understand how much of a universal constant it is in any community as big as destiny's, that there will always be people, no matter how small a minority, who dig into the game's innards to a degree sometimes bordering on obsession

[plain bronze]

why were the ahamkara genocided?

[fresh zephyr]

hell yeah, if i find something, and i like it, ill keep doing it, and revel in it. even join a discord server about it

[safe galleon]

think of a living monkey's paw, except it carries infinite wishes, and the worse the monkey's paw screws over the wishmaker, the more it benefits

now imagine a whole species of them

[safe galleon]

i mean you're 100% not going to but knock yourself out. doesn't affect me

[fresh zephyr]

which part

[safe galleon]

you're not gonna find anything in the whispers

[fresh zephyr]

dont tell me that

i wanna believe

[safe galleon]

this game's bones have been picked clean, and if nobody in here has heard anything about the whispers, chances are the reason is because whoever did look into it, didn't find anything worth putting out there

[fresh zephyr]

all that time i spent

[safe galleon]

i mean push yourself more into a sunken-cost fallacy over like, a couple hours of work if you want to, dude, i can't stop you

and also like i said i don't really care one way or the other

it's your own problem 😭

[fresh zephyr]

i already got hyped about it, im tired of getting hyped about shit only to end up being, man a disappointing waste this shit was

cant handle the pain anymore

[safe galleon]

i mean in this particular vein you're going to end up being that way anyway lol

just depends how long you're going to commit to pretending you won't be

[fresh zephyr]

i just gotta find something else to fill in the hole

what else is there really

thats a current "mystery"

[chrome fog]

In fairness most chanting rooted in the Gregorian style would actually have lyrics, it is simply to a degree that it’s unintelligible without a keen ear; but moreso general ambience mumbling tends to get mistaken for real words when it’s not just breathy exhales and/or moans of despair

[chrome fog]

Great. Not everyone else is on the same level as they’ve already realized there’s nothing to it. Mael has already mentioned the phenomenon you’re most likely experienced and has already cited two major lore experts to back his claim - Sars, who deciphered the Eliksni characters into an actual system in spite of their usage being Willy nilly save for instances like the “Drink of the Seven”, and Eruke, curator of the Destiny Lore Vault channel that works to document as much in-game dialogue possible, from Tower NPCs to seasonal story missions.

Same as toto, no one save yourself can stop you from enjoying this part of Destiny, but sometimes you gotta realize there’s nothing there for anyone to really discuss

[safe galleon]

i mean yeah, but with fromsoft games (aside from bloodborne), it's specifically designed to be gibberish that sounds vaguely like it might be an actual language ex. latin

[chrome fog]

I’d like to cite Mick Gordon’s death metal choir whose chanting was utilized across base Doom: Eternal (but yea I getcha )

[fresh zephyr]

cool, i wasnt denying anything, saying it was wrong or talking about anyone else other than myself

i keep my delusions to myself. i know what they are, im cool with it.

since all serious, i assumed simply the speculation of it would be enough for anyone that enjoys the lore.

i like the lore, doesnt really matter if what theyre saying is true or not. id know the difference between speculating about it and just regurgitating it. i like speculating because its just talking about the fictional universe

the thing i like at base form, the fictional universe is what gives the whole, mentally stimulating endorphin high.

just not fanfic, not that far. i know when to pump the brakes

[chrome fog]

I have a big text wall but I wanna sleep my first sleep of the new year

[lethal inlet]

Taranis and Riven

[trim grotto]

Pardon?

[lethal inlet]

FYI i just finish my first star crossed FIRST TIme

their sound its like riven and taranis

....

[trim grotto]

...yes?

I don't know what you're saying

[lethal inlet]

cant say it here, its been blocked

[jagged badge]

What is blud waffling about

[lethal inlet]

the sound of taranis and riven

talk after taranis away

[jagged badge]

What are you trying to say 💀

[trim grotto]

i have no idea what you mean by this

[lethal inlet]

their sound its like they are having ....

[jagged badge]

Tf are you going on about

[lethal inlet]

LMAO

forget it

[trim grotto]

Taranis and Riven had children together, if that's what you're attempting to say.

The eggs we've been seeking all season.

[lethal inlet]

when the first time u finish STARCROSSED, taranish talked to riven, and at the end of their conversation that got me, its like they are making babies

[jagged badge]

[lethal inlet]

forget about that part

question about riven

riven mention that they were apart, and Oryx save riven, while they were apart taranish make a wish to protect their egg

so now we are the Egg protector, but where is Riven ?

[jagged badge]

Dead

[lethal inlet]

arent we killed em

[jagged badge]

We killed Riven

[lethal inlet]

and this is her Ghost ?

[trim grotto]

Essentially.

[lethal inlet]

iirc The dreaming city queen summon her right ?

[jagged badge]

Well, the Techeuns are summoning her spirit but yes

[lethal inlet]

so, why are we killing riven in the first place, if we need her anyway ?

[jagged badge]

We killed Riven 5 years ago

Or 6 now actually

[lethal inlet]

I think i need to look up youtube D2 Lore for more info i guess

i still dont get it, the part why we hunt em

in the frist place

[jagged badge]

We killed Riven in the Last Wish raid 6 years ago when Forsaken came out

[jagged badge]

The Great Ahamkara Hunt was because the Ahamkara were a problem

They manipulated, hurt and killed many

[lethal inlet]

So riven, is the bad guy here then we hunt her ?

then ORYX came along, thats when we killed her ?

[jagged badge]

No

The Great Ahamkara Hunt was centuries before our Guardian’s time

Riven was the sole survivor of the Hunt (or so we thought)

[jagged badge]

Oryx arrived in Sol in the events of Taken King, 8 years ago in universe. He Took the Dreaming City, and also Riven

No wait

9 years

Point is, we kill Riven a few years after Oryx Took her

[lethal inlet]

I See, now make sense

thats when last wish RAID was out

which is Destiny 2 right ?

[jagged badge]

The Forsaken expansion specifically

Which released in 2018

[lethal inlet]

Damn, I wish there is full D2 Lore i can watch

DAYUM

700 videos

its gonna be long night

[gentle geyser]

Huh

[empty fern]

Damn

[chrome fog]

Braineurysm

[pure tree]

Do we know anything about Huginn and Muninn other than they liked to chill out in the dreaming city and they were probably killed during the Great Hunt?

[chrome fog]

They might be connected to Sjur Eido in some way

[lethal inlet]

mara just told me that she have no love for riven, just passed in my mind what if Riven betrayed us after we collect the egg for her and she did not granted our wish because we killed her

[dim minnow]

Riven is bound by the bargain

she has to uphold her end, but so do we

[ember storm]

well it's going to be tough shit for her cause who's the people in this scenario with physical forms to destroy the eggs we collected for her

[lethal inlet]

Dang, if at the end Riven actually betrayed guardian, its going to be A Hell of Plot twist

https://tenor.com/view/shocked-plot-twist-shock-terrified-freaked-out-gif-17079252

[ember storm]

i mean there's literally only one way it can go from here

[lethal inlet]

idk, im thinking somehow the witness plotting with Riven

because of Witness background history

[trim grotto]

That is antithetical to the nature of Ahamkara. It is, to quote Riven, anathema to her kind.

If any survived, which they wouldn't, they'd starve. She'd be dooming her own children to extinction.

[chrome fog]

Plus we already had this, the Dreaming City and its curse

[chrome fog]

Literally there is no reason for her to betray us because the Witness threatens the very reality she is existing in; not to mention, if the Witness were to succeed it’s reality-as-desired would be equal to reality-as-is, which would deprive her and her children of the chance to feed of that difference between the two (should the Witness’ reality not just be complete erasure of everything, all sentient life would be dedicated to the Sword Logic essentially, and all would simply aim to kill each other to prove they deserve to exist more than the other, so there wouldn’t be that much need for ahamkara in that scenario either)

[outer dragon]

So dumb question
What lore do we have on the Carlos and Maria tha Eva constantly mentions in her idle chatter?

[jagged badge]

Iirc, they are her husband and daughter?

Both passed

[outer dragon]

No idea

That is I ask

[empty fern]

(My dumba always thought they were her fireteam ((I thought she was light bearer at some point))

[frigid sparrow]

okay so I got the dialogue about Caiatl wanting to take back Torobotl a the end of the moon battleground, and with Eris actually severing Xivu Arath's connection to her throne world... have the two had a chat relating to the idea of retaking Torobotl?

[smoky rose]

We are preoccupied with dealing with the witness

Torobatl does not matter right now

[frigid sparrow]

Caiatl said she wants to understand how Torobotl was taken so that she may eventually retake it. Within the time from Risen, we've come to understand more about the nature of the darkness alongside Xivu Arath's gameplan. While The Witness is obviously the bigger threat at-hand right now, I don't think it'd necessarily be off brand for Caiatl to at least think about how Torobotl may eventually be retaken since that's a part of her initial motivations

[trim grotto]

Well, no, but I suppose it's actually possible now. At least once Xivu is actually dead.

Still, the Cabal fleet is not exactly at its strongest.

[frigid sparrow]

Xivu would probably have to die before any major fighting on Torobotl

to my knowledge, she's still getting tithes from war, which I think Caiatl would acknowledge and strategically plan around

[jagged badge]

She hasn’t lost any of her power there. Just the assurance of coming back from death

[quiet light]

whose immaru

[jagged badge]

Savathûn’s Ghost

[quiet light]

okkk, and savathun is the sister of the witness ?

@jagged badge

and im going to get answers from the sister ? to get to the witness ?

im on mission "way of the witch"

[jagged badge]

No

The Witness is the collective amalgamation of an entire species. Its only relation to the Hive as a species is that it manipulated the events into being that created the Hive

Savathûn is the sister of Xivu Arath and Oryx, who were the first three Hive

[jagged badge]

This is correct though. In Season of the Witch, we sought Savathûn’s help in following the Witness through the portal it created in Lightfall

[trim grotto]

She's lost a little, apparently. But yes.

[jagged badge]

Oh right

Whoops

[quiet light]

thank you

[frigid sparrow]

so she did lose some strength from tithes?

[trim grotto]

Apparently she's just weakened
I'll find the line later

[outer dragon]

And her overwhelming, basically free, near instant deployment of forces

[outer dragon]

When she retreated after the connection to her throne world was severed, her worm was not happy and really ate at her. She also has been facing challenges from Ascendant Hive in her brood.

[trim grotto]

Thanks for the backup H

Sourcing dialogue on mobile is an awful system, especially when I'm time constrained at work

[outer dragon]

Im stuck at work too but Hive and more specifically last seasons lore is right in my wheelhouse

[fresh zephyr]

“What about your sisters?” Aurash asks his future self. “Sathona? Xi Ro? Are they with you?”
The Taken King’s fangs glint. That sound might be a laugh, or a hiss.
“Where are my sisters?” Aurash shouts. “What have you done with my people? What have you done?”

wouldve been funnier if instead just saw a gun

[jagged badge]

What?

[fresh zephyr]

Past Oryx sees future Oryx

we turn oryx into touch of malice, a gun

past oryx in vex simulation, "hmm, whats my future like?" turned into gun

[modern holly]

We know the joke bro dw

[fresh zephyr]

apparently not. gotta slowly explain things sometimes

[jagged badge]

Oryx did not become a gun

Oryx is still a consciousness in a corpse

[slim elk]

We Do have a Worm God as a gun

[ember storm]

we didn’t really have anything to do with it happening though

[jagged badge]

This condescension is funny considering you’re wrong

[ember storm]

he consciously did it to himself

we’re just the one that picked it up

canonically speaking everyone besides Xol and Nokris still thinks Xol is dead which is hilarious

[fresh zephyr]

jokes, the best things in life

[slim elk]

TBF: When is the last time you used him?

Probably been sitting in a vault for years

[ember storm]

for the funnies in wr

[fresh zephyr]

"most powerful thing ive ever seen" - ghost

really ghost,

[ember storm]

not the exact quote but yes

strictly speaking

a worm god was the strongest thing we’d ever seen

the fact he faked his death means nothing

[fresh zephyr]

for 5 minutes

[slim elk]

Ghost was wrong even at the time
The strongest thing we would have seen is a big white orb that sat over the city for years lol

[ember storm]

that’s incredibly semantical honestly

it was specifically in the context of things we’ve had to fight

because we were literally fighting Xol

it wasn’t just like pointing out a weirdly bright car passing by on the highway

[fresh zephyr]

a worm god, id think, would be a raid type encounter

[ember storm]

I honestly really don’t care about the Warmind campaign of all things anymore

[fresh zephyr]

but we get it as a strike not even worth keeping in the game

yeah sure in the lore hes buff as fuck

but what good did that do

[ember storm]

it was literally entirely a rouse

are you just deciding to ignore that fact

[fresh zephyr]

in the lore

[ember storm]

he faked his death to abandon his hive brood and trick guardians into feeding him forever

whisper of the worm was literally part of the dlc

it’s not like it was a retcon lol

[jagged badge]

Ngl I don’t much subscribe to the “boss has to be behind certain activity all the time” mindset

[fresh zephyr]

its made backwards, the lore gives the shit we do in-game its meaning

[jagged badge]

Just put them behind whatever activity is convenient to the story imo

[fresh zephyr]

when the lore should be expanding upon it

[ember storm]

the lore literally did expand on it

the point of Xol was to be underwhelming

because it wasn’t real

he won in the end

[fresh zephyr]

yeah and you wouldnt know any of that if you dont get into the lore

[ember storm]

It’s literally just in the mission you get whisper in

he speaks to you directly in the mission where you get the gun named after him

[slim elk]

Contact actually has a point here on that
Whisper's mission.. .doesnt exist anymore

[ember storm]

that’s not “getting into the lore”

[fresh zephyr]

you fight him, which is cool. i like that. but then youre just told, "oh he was powerful, and his death was just a trick"

[ember storm]

the lore tab of the gun explains it all in one minute

[fresh zephyr]

show, dont tell

[ember storm]

so your main point is just content vaulting?

[fresh zephyr]

we keep just being told all the good shit

[ember storm]

if you played the actual mission to get whisper you’d see it firsthand

[fresh zephyr]

its some really good shit too, thats what makes it even more disappointing

yeah wasnt that gonna come back?

[ember storm]

you can’t say the Warmind camapign was shit and then claim it’s disappointing it’s gone now

[fresh zephyr]

im not

it was shit, even then, im still triggered what i bought is gone regardless how shitty it is

its my shit

[jagged badge]

Ugh don’t start this

This debate is had a million different times here with a million different ignorant people

[fresh zephyr]

i flush when im done, i dont just leave

[slim elk]

Think "into the light" will actually ground out the new player experiance?

[ember storm]

what does that mean

[fresh zephyr]

i flush because its mine

[ember storm]

if you have to talk about your actual shit when making points you should probably rethink your stance

[jagged badge]

Anyways

Moving on

[fresh zephyr]

i mean

[jagged badge]

Because I don’t want to entertain whatever this is any further

[slim elk]

Getting away from that
Well, lets see what the "Crow" text was about tomorrow

[fresh zephyr]

xivu better start bodying guardians left and right

dont want yet another super uber god tier inconvenience

but seeing what dlc we got left, and witness, idk. feels familiar

especially with that voice actress, i want to be blown away

[slim elk]

Xivus just a loose end we will tie up later

Or may literally get eaten by her worm offscreen

[fresh zephyr]

oh like the other one

oryx build up was so damn hype

[ember storm]

he was referenced in one mission because a building was named after him

[fresh zephyr]

seeing the taken stuff, the cabal getting yeeted into the taken portals like a bunch of scrubs

[ember storm]

then his dlc dropped

the “build up” for oryx really isn’t comparable to what they’ve done for Savathun or Xivu

[fresh zephyr]

didnt say they were

[trim grotto]

She's lost access to her Throne World and has lost power because of betraying her Worm by retreating.
She's still deadly, but not at the top of her power any longer.

[fresh zephyr]

but she already spent millions of years slaughtering heathens right

[trim grotto]

Sure. But it's a graph. She's lost strength.

[fresh zephyr]

all that, millions of years growing in power "lol" said eris

but the voice actress 100% sells the character

[blazing wasp]

Well eris did kinda somewhat cheat her way to that power

[trim grotto]

Eris skipped the queue. Outsmarted the Queen of Deception, and killed her, and used her strength for one single action.

Xivu still earned it the hard way.

[jagged badge]

[fresh zephyr]

fucking noob trashcans

[blazing wasp]

Xivu couldn't really pull off what eris could due to a lack of situations to do so

[trim grotto]

Xivu Arath is now in a similar situation to Oryx at the time of King's Fall.
He was weakened because we systematically dismantled his tribute lines, and Xivu is weakened because we forced her to deny her nature by severing her Throne World.

[ember storm]

Uke I’m going to ask you a lore question

[blazing wasp]

Oh no

[ember storm]

it’s very very important

[blazing wasp]

Ok

[ember storm]

writer director and star of oryx the nightmare daddy

name them

now

[blazing wasp]

No

[ember storm]

in ten seconds

[blazing wasp]

They're my secrets and mine alone

[ember storm]

do it

[blazing wasp]

Nice try cia

[fresh zephyr]

the dungeon, when shes "Mother.... are you laughing? Sister, are you smiling? Is this a fate worse than extinction? Was it all...for nothing?"

[blazing wasp]

But you're not that clever

[fresh zephyr]

damn, i felt that

wait, why would your mother be laughing

[ember storm]

I honestly just hate all the effects they put on the voice

[fresh zephyr]

maybe theres something there, i wanna know

[ember storm]

I can’t be intimidated by layers of modulation

[jagged badge]

I’m assuming that’s about Taox?

[blazing wasp]

Taox was admittedly
a bitch

Just realised

[fresh zephyr]

but think about that, imagine you did what they did and went through

[ember storm]

Taox was just climbing the corporate ladder

[blazing wasp]

"Heresey" would fit as a title

[ember storm]

can’t blame her for that

[blazing wasp]

If taox was involved

[fresh zephyr]

and realizing it couldve been all for nothing

[dim minnow]

||Didi, ghost of Marcus Ren||

[ember storm]

you are not uke

I did not invoke you

[trim grotto]

If it is referring to Taox, then it's because she betrayed the sisters and their kingdom.

[dim minnow]

I need not invocation here

[trim grotto]

If not, then

[fresh zephyr]

id be going batshit insane too

[ember storm]

and yet i deny you

begone

[blazing wasp]

Didn't know dova was a vampire

[dim minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/lotr-you-have-no-power-gandalf-sauramon-influence-king-gif-14813778

[ember storm]

Dova can’t be defeated by invoking the name of his bane

you just need repeat it three times

PV PV PV

or until he gets annoyed and goes off to write up a copypasta for how much he hates her

that usually gets him to be quiet

also doghives

goodnight

[trim grotto]

ciao friend

[sinful pivot]

@trim grotto how is Fikrul still alive

ive heard Crow talking about finding where he is and stuff during my Coil runs

i thought we killed him during Forsaken

[blazing wasp]

He respawns

The point of the strike we do with him as a boss is routinely killing him when he respawns

[sinful pivot]

oh i forgot he was a strike boss too

[dim minnow]

Fikrul is the first Scorn and a result of an Ahamkara wish

which is why wheever he dies, he comes back

[sinful pivot]

ah

thanks

[trim grotto]

fun fact
that strike is one of the few we could arguably canonically repeat

*albeit the reality is that other strike teams did it, but still

[sinful pivot]

what are the other strikes?

[trim grotto]

The old Infinite Forest ones, mostly.

[sinful pivot]

lightblade would be one right? since alak hul is a light bearer

we never crush his ghost

[trim grotto]

Arguably, yes, but he's also not guarding anything there any longer.

We went there for the piece of the Tablets of Ruin.

[dim minnow]

I want Alak Hul to come back so we can summon him to aid us

[light stratus]

Does anyone have a good lore video they could send me

[trim grotto]

...about what?

[light stratus]

Is The whole thing possible

[trim grotto]

Well. Yes. But it'll take... over five hours and that's outdated by a few years now.

And it misses a lot of topics

[light stratus]

Oh I see

What about witch queen to now

[trim grotto]

https://www.youtube.com/@MynameisByf
I'm just gonna show you Byf and let you explore

[hazy grove]

theres two things which i really dont understand in unveiling

All you will do, I said, with rising panic|fury, is delay the dominant pattern that will overrun the others. It is inevitable. One final shape.
panic? winnower hates the idea of it all not coming to a perfect ending? idk what this is about
insert the second half of "the wager" (everything after the garderner speaks)
i cant really understand what this is actually about. im super lost on this

[trim grotto]

So the first half is simple. To pull two quotes the Winnower... ...we can be nothing except what we are.
And I had only one purpose and one principle in the game. And I could do nothing but continue to enact that purpose, because it was all that I was and ever would be.

What the Gardener did defied the very nature and purpose of the Winnower. It... broke the rules.

As for the second point, you're referring to this, yes?

[hazy grove]

yup

[trim grotto]

In this case, the Gardener is the Traveler.

The Winnower has stated that the Traveler is making its final stand, it is totally invested. We are its argument, we are the ring of spears protecting our peaceful kingdom.
The Winnower offers its argument wishing us to join it, and then declares it'll come over and hear our answer... but the context here is vital, and I'll explain.

These messages began arriving through an artifact we pulled from the first Pyramid hidden in the depths of the Moon during Shadowkeep. These messages ended in the Season of Dawn... directly before Worthy, wherein we and Rasputin prepared for the incoming invasion of the Black Fleet, the Pyramids. We tracked them for months as they advanced upon us.

In other words, what came to hear our answer, was the Witness.

[fresh zephyr]

winnower is basically the gravemind

"imma consume all life for muh perfection as one being forever."

Our urge to create is immutable; we must create. But the beings we create shall never again reach out in strength against us. All that is created will suffer. All will be born in suffering, endless grayness shall be their lot. All creation will tailor to failure and pain, that never again shall the offspring of the eternal Fount rise up against their creators. Listen to the silence. Ten million years of deep silence. And now, whimpers and cries; not of birth. That is what we bring: a great crushing weight to press down youth and hope. No more will. No more freedom. Nothing new but agonizing death and never good shall come of it. We are the last of those who gave you breath and form, millions of years ago. We are the last of those your kind defied and ruthlessly destroyed. We are the last Precursors. And now we are legion

sounds familiar dont it

[trim grotto]

That's... sort of the Witness's move, sure. It isn't how I was attempting to describe the Winnower, however.

[fresh zephyr]

i get the confusion over it over it

[hazy grove]

ive looked at the words winnower and gardener for so long they dont make sense any more i need a break

[fresh zephyr]

then it began feeling kinda familiar. usually when creating conflict you make up contrasting or contradicting philosophies for it that you can relate to in some way

[trim grotto]

Unveiling is kind of deep-end stuff. Come back to it later.

It isn't going anywhere, and a fresh view can be helpful.

[fresh zephyr]

kinda went too far with it, gardener cus garden. cool, wtf is winnower. and why does it matter to (it?) anyways what gardener does

[trim grotto]

Looking at it from a surface level, it's simple. They both have their nature, neither can deny it. The Winnower separates the chaff from the wheat. Weak from strong. That which will live from that which won't. Why? Because that is its nature, same as the Gardener.

But there are layers, and looking at the deeper ones can broaden ones perspective.

[fresh zephyr]

we already do that, we dont need him being a douche about it

[trim grotto]

Assume Unveiling to be a metaphor. Cut it down to its roots, truly. Within it is a Gardener that tends to civilisations, and a Winnower that separates the wheat from the chaff.

Here's where I get to thinking.
In the evening, the winnower reaped the day's crop and separated what would flourish from what had failed.
It isn't one being that does this. Everything does this, existence itself does.
The Winnower isn't a being, per se. It's a concept. It is evolution, and the p53, and the winter.
It is also the Witness, for the Witness has taken up the Knife.
The Winnower isn't one person, one creature. It is the other half of life itself.
The Witness is simply taking this concept to its ultimate form, an end. A Final Shape.

These messages began arriving through an artifact we pulled from the first Pyramid hidden in the depths of the Moon during Shadowkeep.
At the end, the book is essentially signed by the Witness. Don't hurry to deliver your answer. I'll come over and hear it myself., it says, directly before the arrival of the Black Fleet the very next Season.
The Witness is what wrote Unveiling, yet it isn't a pre-universal primordial. It doesn't have to be. It chose to become a Winnower.
They desired meaning. Structure. A "Winnower"... to shape the garden.

[hazy grove]

why did the winnower object so greatly to the gardener adding a rule? it didnt stop the winnower from following its nature it just made it more interesting

[trim grotto]

Ah, but it changed the game. The game did not play itself, self contained, any longer. It was open to influence.

[fresh zephyr]

wouldnt reacting to the new rule, also be a new rule

[trim grotto]

The new rule in the metaphor is what we know as paracausality.

[trim grotto]

In a way, it was. Their battle created the universes, life itself, true existence.

But, this train of thought assumes the text to be more literal than metaphor.

[hazy grove]

Do we know anything about the origins of the vex?

They're incredibly advanced robots surely there's something

[trim grotto]

Yes, albeit there are two paths to take, here.
On one hand, there's an "origin" in Unveiling, as they are the manifestation of the winning Pattern. But that's Unveiling.

The other is far more grounded and interesting.

Vex are not the robots. Vex are that which is within the Radiolarian Fluid - the Vex Milk, as it's known.

[fresh zephyr]

yeah, the vex call crota daddy

[trim grotto]

Now, I've got to head to sleep - I have work in the morning. But I can provide you with some long-form yet fascinating reading material that is relevant to the topic.

anyway

[fresh zephyr]

we all know it

especially oryx

[trim grotto]

I'm going to link you two... well, links.

The first is a Google Document. It's a transcript of a physical copy of the first half of Clovis Bray's Logbook. It was the Beyond Light CE, and no true online version exists.
The second is the second half, uncovered in an API puzzle, and is currently hosted on Ishtar.

These documents together detail the birth of the Exo, the Europan facilities, and Clovis's study on the Vex - including theories on their origin and studies on their nature, both physical and mental. It's some of my favourite lore we have, and is utterly fascinating.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tmu9sjYV7c6X1NhRQmOxkj_o7IJ4ZRcifbm49MNr12s/edit
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/clovis-brays-logbook-missing-pages

Despite the unorthodox hosting of the first half of the Logbook, I assure you, this is the best copy you'll find, and is perfectly canon.

Happy reading, and enjoy! Feel free to ping me about any questions, though I won't be fully available for at least 16 hours. Nevertheless, I'd be happy to answer any questions on any topic.

[ember storm]

not really

all Crota did was let them invade Oryx’s throne world

he had nothing to do with their creation

[chrome fog]

Winnowing is an older phrase for pruning; therefore, a Winnower cuts away what is not needed. (This was like a quick google search)

Funnily enough the MK 44 Stand Asides attribute pruning and planting to the Gardener herself, not two individual entities, which is 1) a reason to doubt Unveiling’s total validity, or 2) imply a cavalcade of various interpretations as to what happened to the Gardener at the beginning of the Universe if Unveiling were to hold some truth on these events

[chrome fog]

Errr wrong sulfuric acid

Only instance of “Daddy” being used in-universe is Immaru calling himself “Daddy Immaru” to the Lucent Hive, and a Ghost Stories entry where the Ghosts trying to put on a community play retelling of the events of The Taken King call the role of Oryx “Daddy Oryx”

Sorry my bad,

Oryx the Nightmare Daddy
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/ghost-community-theater-presents

[jagged badge]

You missed Drifter saying “big daddy Calus”

😤

[chrome fog]

Smh I’m such a fake lore head, crush me into an engram for my sins

[slim elk]

Nah.
Just get turned into a gun. It's been such a iconic action even Mara threatened to do it to Riven

[chrome fog]

But that implies I deserve so for such a blunder

But anyways yeah, Gardening metaphor ain’t that hard to understand

Winnower enjoyed the simplistic and fatalistic consistency of the universe ending with the Vex - the Pattern that always arose - and the Gardener wished for a change in the game, some new rules so that there could actually be a chance for their differing views to be challenged against one enough instead of the inevitability of a memetic hazard integrating all things into itself

“Winnower” - if they even exist, they could be the Witness’ original self-insert oc for all we know - wants simplicity in the justification for living and killing: to prove one deserves to exist more than the other

A given purpose for living

The Gardener, however, is a proponent for cooperation, additive complexity, meaning with no clear answer

The meaning is what you make it

However like all arguments against Social Darwinists, theh always get to cite natural results as evidence to how correct they are, ignoring that there are possibilities outside of their limited view of why things live

If living beings were only meant to prove how physically superior they are to each other, why make art? Why ponder beauty in all aspects? Why question existence to begin with?

Of course, Unveiling doesn’t present this as such, it moreso points at the Gardener and says “Look how dumb and naive they are! Point and laugh at their reasonable hope for the better, I’m so much smarter because I accept the inevitability of all things killing each other and everything dying in the end har har!”

[blazing wasp]

https://tenor.com/view/senator-armstrong-armstrong-metal-gear-rising-mgr-speech-bubble-gif-25397532

[chrome fog]

That’s the whole reason why we doubted it in the first place really, like who tf would actually want to believe in the Winnower, that shit will literally get us killed

[chrome fog]

My brain is like a writers’ room of chimpanzees with typewriters, constantly typing shit on the level of MGR and burning down

[blazing wasp]

Our main doubts for unveiling is that its witness propaganda
Unveiling very much didn't make the winnower look good

[chrome fog]

Alternatively

[blazing wasp]

Before we knew it may be witness propaganda we viewed it with very high credibility

[chrome fog]

I mean yeah obviously, but my point is that Unveiling itself is written like the author believes the Winnower is correct and justified, which obviously it isn’t

Also, there were two different paths to getting some entries of Unveiling

Which were dependent on if you sided with “Salvation” or not

If you refused, you got the Hope entry

If you accepted, idk but it was two other entries you got

Though I’m pulling this from before the most recent server wipe, I didn’t really play during Arrivals to know if this was true or not

[chrome fog]

Also the fact it’s written so assuredly of itself is most likely what tripped up a lot of the community, considering so many in the community thought “yeah, the Winnower is right and also, the Traveler hasn’t done much shit it’s been us doing the hard work”

It’s hilarious how it presents the opposing sides of the “Flower Game” in their totality with nothing to really disprove the Gardener’s position other than middle school-level fatalistic nihilism and saying “look how bad their mindset is, my mindset is where it’s at”

[fresh zephyr]

why did atraks 1 join the fallen?

wasnt she an exo?

[gentle geyser]

No

She was a fallen

Its like, literally in the name

And we see her in a cutscene before shes an exo

[frigid sparrow]

Fallen exo

DSC was about house salvation's attempt to use exo technology to essentially create super soldier fallen, which they did with atraks and taniks

[ember storm]

the fallen exo is a fallen exo 🤯

[keen jasper]

how did calus manage to make such a big statue on neptune?

[slim elk]

Turns out last week's flavor text did come too early after all

Crows going through the portal and they plan to "bridge the gap" using Maras connections to the Awoken

[jagged badge]

What statue?

[keen jasper]

the giant building

[rich veldt]

you mean his ship?

[jagged badge]

That’s his ship, the Typhon Imperator, that he just landed down on Neptune’s surface

[tawdry mauve]

imo the imperator was severely underused

i hope we go back to it

[dim minnow]

Neomuna dungeon?

[tawdry mauve]

honestly anything

we were there for like 2 missions?

in the campaign

[dim minnow]

Which would you prefer?
Typhon Imperator dungeon or Neomuna inner city dungeon?

[tawdry mauve]

the imperator

we didnt even see 1% of it

[dim minnow]

I'm leaning more towards inner city

[trim grotto]

Citttyyyyyyy

[tawdry mauve]

speaking of concept art, do we know where this warmind timeline art is from

specifically in game, but if we have a source for it that would be cool too

[dim minnow]

D1 Era I believe

I thinkbit is meant to resemble the main Rasputin core room in the Cosmodrome warmind bunker

[tawdry mauve]

it looks like the artwork of ryan gitter

but i cant find the original

[dim minnow]

Try looking up Siege of the Warmind mission from D1

That's probably what the concept art is depicting

[tawdry mauve]

this?

[dim minnow]

Huh

I mean, probably

[tawdry mauve]

the one from the timeline looks massive

[dim minnow]

Maybe it's the one on Io

In Arecibo

I think that was what the quest was called

[tawdry mauve]

nah its not it

goddamnit istg if i dont find this artwork

gonna be so mad

[jagged badge]

Osiris rocking those painted nails

[tawdry mauve]

he also has an exposed belly

[jagged badge]

I like to imagine he still does those even if he’s wearing gauntlets/gloves all the time

[tawdry mauve]

Eris i need your help here

do you perchance know where the original artwork here

comes from

[jagged badge]

I do not I’m afraid

[tawdry mauve]

im scouring the net looking for "warmind" concept art

but im not finding anything

i did find this though

which is pretty cool

[dim minnow]

Ah yes, Seraph's Berth

Aka "The Fucking Door"

[jagged badge]

It’s a look for sure

[tawdry mauve]

some of this unused rasputin concept art is pretty cool

its crazy how much more dramatic concept artists are with bungies own themes

[velvet flax]

Warmind concept art is some of the best

[rustic crypt]

Is the light and darkness that Guardians use considered magic?

[trim grotto]

That's a simple way of seeing it, sure.
Light and Dark are paracausal forces. Paracausality is literally, parallel causality. A force of cause to effect adjacent yet separate to physics.

[cedar cipher]

Has the egg in dreaming city always been there or is that new?

[trim grotto]

Which is "the" egg, exactly?

[ember storm]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-the-misery-gif-25993617

egg

[frigid sparrow]

Do we have any info on what's going on in Io or Mercury? We've seen how the darkness affected Mars with the temporal tears and how Titan became a foothold for Xivu's hive (for lack of better words), what about the other two planets?

[cedar cipher]

Very top of dreaming city in harbingers don’t know exaclty how to describe it without going back to it

If you take a portal that leads you to a ledge there’s an egg on a tree to the right like literally just hidden and I can’t do anything with it no interact or shooting

[frigid sparrow]

is it like one of the wish-ender eggs?

[cedar cipher]

Not sure I never did Wishender before with the recent quest rework

[frigid sparrow]

There's a triumph for shooting all the corrupted eggs in the dreaming city, it's been some time since I last attempted it because I would have to do last wish to complete it but it's possible it could be that

[cedar cipher]

It might be

[cedar cipher]

Prlly will get resolved in the aftermath stuff

[trim grotto]

They're still missing.

[ember storm]

I ate those food

[sinful pivot]

any lore nerds remember what this was

going through all screenshots

[severe meadow]

its a space ship

no need to thank me

[trim grotto]

Caiatl's fleet arriving in Season of the Chosen

[sinful pivot]

ah

thanks mail man

[outer dragon]

Was it like the eggs we have been gathering or was it blackish taken looking?

[cedar cipher]

It was a taken egg

[outer dragon]

That's for the Triumph. Shoot it with Wishender

What could be more funny this season that earning the Dreaming City title

Collecting good eggs and destroying bad ones

[willow flax]

how are shreikers even made? is it just “its hive magic”

[trim grotto]

Mostly! One moment.

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/shrieker

[willow flax]

thanks 👍

[frigid sparrow]

what do you think would happen if we just decided to shoot the corrupted egg from like a week or two ago

I think that'd be funny as fuck

[dim minnow]

Riven really got overdramatic when she saw one of her eggs get corrupted

[trim grotto]

over

"Excuse me, ma'am. Yes, hi. Your baby has been transformed into a willing slave seeking to consume existence. What? Why are you yelling. Calm down."

[outer dragon]

Riven would probably rage

[dim minnow]

then we undo it in not even an hour

[empty fern]

So like, 5 more steps till the quest is done (ends next week) what did this week uncover so far?

[hazy grove]

Stop trying to get that rhubarb compote recipe right. You serve it at every dinner, waiting for me to say it’s just like Grandma made it. It’s pathetic. And you wonder why I’d rather eat with the crew.

-E
damn this was just straight up mean wtf

[jagged badge]

Is that Elsie to Clovis I assume?

[hazy grove]

yeah

[jagged badge]

In fairness, it’s pretty much deserved on Clovis’ part

[hazy grove]

i get clovis is a pretty bad guy

but that was

such a deep personal hit

[jagged badge]

He’s just trying to manipulate her

I doubt he’s actually sentimental about it. Just wants her to feel close with him so she’ll do what he needs her to do

I get what you mean though

It almost makes me feel bad for him too until I remember what sorta person he is

[hazy grove]

oh man just read brays entire log book

that was

a lot of information

terrible terrible man

just awful

[trim grotto]

yes indeed he was

[hazy grove]

also now understanding what the vex actually are i cant help but critique the exo skeleton vex body designs

why would you make the only thing that matters

the only thing that isnt covered

[grizzled zinc]

Uhh

Cooling

[chrome fog]

I mean they do cover it until you shoot them enough

For hobgoblins that’s especially the case since shooting off their “head crest” prevents them from going invincible and you can pop their chest

[grizzled zinc]

Uhh

Also

Most vex units aren’t made for combat

They’re maintenance workers

Why waste the materials to protect the radiolaria in the chest? The vex unit’s gona come back anyway

Iirc wyverns are the closest thing we have to actual combat units among the vex’s hivemind thusfar.

[outer dragon]

Clovis might be a big piece of shit but Helga Rasmussen makes him look like a Weenie Hut Jr member

[outer dragon]

The Cronicon is Calus fanfic written but an unreliable narrator

[grizzled zinc]

huh

brotha you replied to the wrong shit

[outer dragon]

Nope

Though I might be mistaken that it was the cronicon
It could have been Calus dialog from Menagerie

I think it is

Mobile youtube is ass

[jagged badge]

This is a misconception

[grizzled zinc]

[jagged badge]

There is nothing credible suggesting Vex have such a distinction as combat units, nor is there any sufficient lore on Wyverns

[grizzled zinc]

why wouldn't they have combat models.

[jagged badge]

Because that’s just not a concept the Vex require?

They’re already the most efficient and ruthless combatants in Destiny, barring the fact they can’t simulate paracausality

[grizzled zinc]

hm

[chrome fog]

Having your “blood” turn anything into more of the Network kinda negates any need for combat units, plus a hammer works well as a tool and a weapon

[pure tree]

I've heard people say that Wyverns could also have construction purposes, that being for demolition purposes, as well as combat abilities

[ember storm]

the only named Wyverns we’ve ever fought had the exact same position and jobs as other vex

they’re just more of the same

their weapons are also named after actual tools like other vex

[jagged badge]

Point is, all the Vex kinda kick ass, so it’s silly to say that one unit we have 0 lore about is necessarily a “combat unit” when the others aren’t

[wicked elm]

To be fair every vex unit has some form of “construction” capabilities

[pure tree]

I think the idea that the vex are so powerful that they don't even have the concept of combat platforms is more intimidating than the idea that the vex were holding back and only now releasing the floodgates

[wicked elm]

And even to add to that as starcrossed revealed they now have the power to simulate techuen and wish magic

Which only amplifies their combat capabilities

[pure tree]

And puts simulating more powerful paracasual powers within reach as something they could potentially do

Given enough time

[wicked elm]

Which brings the possibility that at some point they will find a way to resurrect the gate lords and make them more powerful, given enough time as you said

[ember storm]

gate lords really aren’t that much of a deal

[wicked elm]

True

But they did kill a “handful” of guardians

[ember storm]

they’re just sentient padlocks

[pure tree]

All this being said, I wonder how post TFS, we'd end up dealing with the Vex as a threat to humanity's survival

[pure tree]

The fallen were killing guardians before the start of D1, it's not that much of an achievement

[wicked elm]

Actually now that I think about it they are working with the witness or something like that specifically the Sol devisive if I remember correctly this could mean that they are learning to simulate the witness it’s self or the powers it used

And if they managed that they most definitely could make their own traveller

[pure tree]

The Eliksni are easy, many of them are already defecting to House Light, and with Eramis going back to Riis, there's not much central leadership left in House Salvation while House Dusk is a shell of a shell of a shell of its former self.
The cabal have endured defeat after defeat after lightfall, and also the Shadow Legion, from our knowledge, is either not bigger than Caiatls ascendency or not much bigger.
The hive are either under Savathun, who is in a weird spot in terms of their relations to us, or following Xivu, but with Xivu banished from her throne world, it's possible to gut her hive like we did with Oryx and his lineage when the time comes.
The taken and scorn are both almost completely leaderless and dealing with them is more akin to an extermination, unless anyone powerful is able to wrestle control over a sizable majority.
But the vex, how do you defeat a universe spanning network

It's not like they have a central hub where destroying it destroys the network, to our knowledge, in the grand scheme of things, the Vex is pretty decentralised

[wicked elm]

With house dusk you could really say it’s a shell of what was 😉

[pure tree]

House Dusk has been so beaten I almost feel bad shooting them on earth, nessus, or the moon

[wicked elm]

TBF the only really well standing house is house light

[pure tree]

House light is still the smallest of the three remaining houses, but it is the only one still growing

Since it started from nothing while Dusk banded all the surviving houses together in desperation and Salvation was effectively the same, but with a direction and out of a desire to create a permanent home and independence for the Eliksni

[wicked elm]

But after which eramis was corrupted by the darkness more specifically stasis which is supposed to represent something like what greed? And she lost the plot of house salvation

[chrome fog]

Sol Divisive only, they’re hooked on that Paracausality and their only dealer is the Witness; rest of the Vex Network kinda considers them freaks

[chrome fog]

House Dusk has barely been a House, it is solely all the remnants of the various houses we’ve destroyed, all of whom scavenge across the system

Salvation is still going strong though they do have constant defectors who do subscribe to the idea that the rebuilding of their society necessitates killing humans

[paper gorge]

How was taniks brought back in DSC ?

[ember storm]

he’s a cyborg

they gave him better cybernetics

he just didn’t actually die

like the last 4 times people “killed” him

[tawdry mauve]

he specifically wasnt turned into an exo though as well

which a lot of people think is the case

he is just a cyborg

[outer dragon]

Because their tools also function as weapons

[paper gorge]

How many times has tanks actually died ?

[dull raft]

enough to rival kelgorath

[chrome fog]

Not really

Taniks is a solid 5-7 times, Kelgorath had plenty of repeat deaths in Seraph due to his mastery of returning from his Throneworld nigh instantaneously

[smoky rose]

Twice by cayde, twice by us in D1 and again in D2

That’s not counting nightmares

So yeah roughly 5

[ember storm]

there were more times before Cayde iirc

like that was the whole basis of his dare with andal brask

[wheat flower]

Eramis went back to riis?

[ember storm]

what

[wheat flower]

Thouggt i read someone said eramis went back to riis

[jagged badge]

She’s planning to leave Sol iirc

I don’t think she’s specifically going to Riis. Just to try and find the other Eliksni in other systems

[empty fern]

And or meet up with her, what was it again? Hatchmate?

Some type of mate

[jagged badge]

Her hwife 🥰

[empty fern]

Yea

Athyrs I think

[jagged badge]

Athrys

[empty fern]

Atheries

Authorities

[ember storm]

Arthritis

[peak coral]

antidisestablishmentarianism

[short badge]

so the people of neomuna usually live in the physical world or are they chronically online like a d2 player?

[empty fern]

They are chronically online via the cloud ark

Like stasis pods

[short badge]

so whats the point of a physical city?

And I remember someone saying that she was a cyborg so I’m even more confused

After hitting on me a bunch

[gentle geyser]

They have vehicles and also a lot of the buildings either have artwork in them or serve a purpose

[trim grotto]

Physical world

[gentle geyser]

Really just a matter of it being a city

[trim grotto]

She's an amputee. Missing leg.

[short badge]

Why not just live in a little server underground?

[trim grotto]

Has prosthetic

[short badge]

Vex yoink her leg?

[trim grotto]

Because they still... live. They need a physical space, need to eat, need resources for upkeep, so on

[short badge]

Oohhh so they come out every once in a while?

[jagged badge]

They go in the CloudArk as a danger response

[short badge]

That makes more sense

[jagged badge]

Typically they’re out in the city, but if there’s a particularly bad Vex attack for example, they’d evacuate for safety

In this case, the Neomuni went into cryo due to the return of the Black Fleet in Arrivals

[slim elk]

Even when out in the city they are still hardwired into the Cloudark.

They just went into pods to minimize resource costs and prevent easy targeting while the siege is ongoing

[jagged badge]

Oh?

[slim elk]

Lore books mention it and its about the only explanation for what Aesop pulls in Swarmers.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/swarmers

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-bluejay#book-cloud-strider-legacies

Cutting all the extraneous stuff
Cloudark=Internet

Playing video games on it pretty much gives it away

Bungie hid the cyberpunk truth of Neomuna just beneath its neon surface lol

[little gorge]

ok now that i think of it

is that true history or just a myth

[slim elk]

Likely propaganda with a bit of truth in it.
My guess is there was an incident where all an entire generation of kids were wiped out by the Vex over carelessness with the Cloudark

Neomunas government likely covering up the true cause of it (that being their negligence) and inventing Aesop for that purpose

[little gorge]

maybe

but yeah it's probably not completely true

it's named aesop for crying out loud

[slim elk]

We know they cover up even the truth of the Sidereal (the thing that makes the Cloudstriders)

This propaganda makes it sound like it was an intentional development
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-strider#book-cloud-strider-legacies

But here its revealed it was some sort of accident that created the first Cloudstrider
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/mikaela-julaha#book-cloud-strider-legacies

[little gorge]

i just love the LF lore books

Carlita Capybara, Capybara Corner, s45, ep51

[slim elk]

I just wish what was implied in them was actually the main story of Lightfall lol

[little gorge]

not gonna start that discussion again

anyways i literally started laughing when the first page you get (the one in last days) includes the words "it will do all the pooping for you"

which is ironic because it's a pretty emotional entry

Arter set himself heavily onto the stool. His class ranged from four to seven years old, and some of them were smarter than he ever remembered being at that age, but none of them were ready to confront the idea of extinction.

[slim elk]

Hard to break it to kids the best Neomuna could come up with was hide in cryo

[little gorge]

also you can tell they came up with this during covid

[slim elk]

Probably part of the reason why the whole concept is full of holes

[cedar cipher]

With the fact that lightfall was supposed to be the end of the current saga what was the original 15th wish or was bungie just gonna forget that existed and expect people to forget as well

[gentle geyser]

Bungie was probably gonna throw it under the rug

[short badge]

A better thing would that they’d evacuate the war zones

[cedar cipher]

On another topic with the extra time bungie has for the final shape of love for them to make 2 endings or maybe even multiple with choices like they had choices in season of the drifter even if they didn’t really amount to anything

[little gorge]

i don't think people interpret "lightfall was going to be the ending" correctly

it would be more accurate to say there would be no lightfall

for all we know there could still be a portal though

[slim elk]

Check the opening and ending cutscenes of Lightfall with the HELM window
Is all but confirmed its literally the same cutscene that was split

[cedar cipher]

Wasn’t lightfall supposed to be the ending DLC? I could be wrong

[jagged badge]

[short badge]

I hope they don’t get rid of it tho because I never got to play before season of plunder (which was the best by far)

[jagged badge]

Not exactly

[little gorge]

my brother in christ doesn't that literally support my argument

[little gorge]

???

[slim elk]

yep, I'm supporting you to showcase whats going on. People have conflated the terms so much

[short badge]

How they got rid of the red war and stuff

[slim elk]

The short version is, what we are getting in Final Shape plotwise is what was supposed to be the "Lightfall" before Bungie split the dlcs

[little gorge]

btw I don't exactly believe that bungie had planned out a cutscene for final shape and literally cut it in half and put a dlc between it

[jagged badge]

They had to do that for reasons that don’t apply to post Beyond Light expansions

[little gorge]

just the witness opening the portal was going to be probably more straightfoward

[short badge]

Good reasons aren’t good, my wants are more important

[cedar cipher]

I’m pretty sure I remember lightfall being the final name for the ending DLC then bungie realized they needed more time and basically lied to everyone by selling a continuation that didn’t really do much

[little gorge]

💀

[cedar cipher]

I don’t doubt it

[little gorge]

first of all even if they did call it lightfall why does that matter

[short badge]

Didn’t they say they were also getting rid of legendary shards?

[little gorge]

the name has absolutely no significance to the plot

[jagged badge]

In Final Shape

[short badge]

Oooh

That’s dumb

[little gorge]

they're phasing them out?

[jagged badge]

Not really

[little gorge]

I'm 100% sure if they took your shards without notice you would be furious

[cedar cipher]

It doesn’t I’m saying that with that fact that lightfall being the final DLC what was the original last wish. That was my question

[jagged badge]

They’re consolidating and simplifying the currencies to make it more friendly for new players

[short badge]

We should make it harder on them

[little gorge]

again, for all we know the whole ahamkara plot might have still been a thing

[jagged badge]

And also to erase the immense gap between new players and people who have built up a massive stockpile of shards

[little gorge]

if they even had that comprehensive of a plan

we don't know much

[cedar cipher]

Simplifying is a stretch considering the new currency exchange rates

[little gorge]

yeah exactly it's all a plot to make us have less fun which leads to them profiting

[cedar cipher]

That’s why I’m asking what are people thoughts on what the wish was originally or was bungie just gonna expect everyone to forget it

[slim elk]

If you pay attention to the past, Bungie likes to leave little "seeds" they can utilize later in case they need something
Nezerac is a prime example of this

[little gorge]

the 15th wish is something that before the ending of this season only ever existed in unused triumphs

[slim elk]

The Last Wish is just another example

[little gorge]

and the api

[jagged badge]

It was never really meant to be a thing before. It wasn’t something they teased and then left unresolved

It’s just that somebody now retroactively decided to tie this into that

[cedar cipher]

Step right up 15$ you’ll get a decent exotic for pvp some out of time exotics and some free shards and stuff that won’t make a difference cause you’ll only be able to masterwork 1 single piece of gear like that’ll help at all

[short badge]

And pay another 60 for a quick story(I’m still paying)

[little gorge]

exactly!!! they must be evil!!! that's the only logical explanation!!!

god this community is stupid at times

[slim elk]

They are lol. At least the executives are
Sees the mass layoffs conducted in secrecy

[little gorge]

secrecy???

[cedar cipher]

Like I said tho I hope with the extra SIX MONTHS they have there’s some choices to be made in the story with maybe 2 endings I’d love to see that

[short badge]

What was the point of that? They make a lot of money

[little gorge]

anyways no one is evil in the sense that they want you to have as little fun as possible

[cedar cipher]

They don’t even have to be original they can be choice a you get the ending we’ve been fighting for or B you get the ending we’ve been trying to stop

[jagged badge]

That’s a dreadful idea

[little gorge]

why would destiny randomly have alternate endings ten years into the saga

[jagged badge]

Yeah, that’s not a resolution lmao

That’d also make making future content impossible

[short badge]

True

[little gorge]

one ending is "universe ends" and your account gets deleted

[cedar cipher]

It’s just an idea since we had choices such as Drifters season that didn’t really do much id just like for the six months to be stuff other than “yeah we fired a lot of people so we need the 6 months to actually start working on the DLC we promised 2 years ago”

[jagged badge]

[cedar cipher]

The canon ending would obviously be the good one

[jagged badge]

Anyway

[cedar cipher]

Anyways new hunter super is stupid and I hate it and no one can tell me otherwise

[little gorge]

you know

when something gets delayed because they need more time to finish it, adding more feature creep due to the delay is probably the worst thing they could possibly do

[gentle geyser]

Can’t wait to not use it!

[cedar cipher]

Yeah but pretty sure it got delayed is cause they fired the one dude that “Due to increased traffic, login services to Destiny 2 are currently being throttled”

[jagged badge]

Anyways

[little gorge]

yeah let's talk about lore

[cedar cipher]

Ok lore wise

[jagged badge]

Let’s talk about how Drifter once said “big daddy Calus”

[slim elk]

Nah
What are the odds Crow is gonna crash his ship again when we send him through the portal?

[gentle geyser]

Thats pretty fitting got drifter

[little gorge]

he is large and a father

factually correct

[gentle geyser]

I mean I bet the first mission of the campaign is going and rescuing crow from being overwhelmed or something

[cedar cipher]

Let’s talk about how Zavala Ikora and Cayde needed a random Russian man/woman to help them defeat a giant god.

[cedar cipher]

That would be hilarious

[slim elk]

Cayde shooting the crap out of Crow for killing him
"Hey Guardian, just taking out some anger"

[gentle geyser]

Im more expecting a followup on hows your sister

[cedar cipher]

Crows just stuck in a tree and the guardian says “the name fits now.” *crows ship explodes while the guardian walks away cause coool guys don’t look at explosions

[jagged badge]

The Guardian is definitely not necessarily Russian

[gentle geyser]

“Well that just happened”

[cedar cipher]

Omg I never realized that the first person Crow will prlly see is Cayde that’s gonna be akward

[jagged badge]

Anyone could have been evacuating at the Exodus shipyards

Not to mention, if you’re an Awoken Guardian, you would have shown up and died after

[slim elk]

Would make a nice series of lore books if Bungie let us choose stuff like that
Ala the Drifter lore book if you chose between him or Aunor

[cedar cipher]

True but my head canon is I was a Russian mobster who was playing Both sides in the war

Ok as a pitch for one of the after Final Shape stories how cool would it be to go against a rogue guardian

[slim elk]

if there was ever a time for it. It would be now

Elsie referenced the "Dark Guardians" in her timeline, but we have never seen a single one in action

[cedar cipher]

In other news remember when bungie gave us all STDs (SIVA transmitted disease)

[cedar cipher]

It would be one of the coolest moments to be able to actually see how badass a Rogue can be rather than reading it

[empty fern]

Did we ever seen namrask in game during rise of iron? (Or any mentioned of him in d1)

(Namrask from egg cloth)

[trim grotto]

No and no

[empty fern]

Damnit

[empty fern]

Who is chelchis again? They are referenced in the whirlwind and in kings fall, along with Saint-14

[trim grotto]

Kell of Stone
Died facing "the Maw" during the Whirlwind

Eliksni songs still tell of Chelchis, Kell of Stone, who stood before the Maw.

Many people believe that Oryx's brood were there, hence the reference on gear from the Dreadnaught. I'm not so convinced myself, as we've only otherwise seen or heard of evidence about Pyramids, not Hive.

Regardless, Chelchis died during the Whirlwind.

[severe meadow]

this is so depressing "Where is the Great Machine? Where is the Great Machine?"

[empty fern]

What was the maw, the supposed invasion of the hive/pyramids?

[trim grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/tony-stark-eyeglass-exellent-question-gif-12818139

[empty fern]

Damnit

Who was koroxis again? (Ron gl)

I don’t think koroxis was a psion rice

[severe meadow]

i didnt have a person

[empty fern]

Not even the gun?

[severe meadow]

but the grips of trepidation have some lore on it

if you want to read that

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/grips-of-trepidation

[empty fern]

Wait

[trim grotto]

The entire set is about Koraxis

Eliksni
A Captain haunted by Nezarec, sought him out

[empty fern]

Martian missives
Did savathuns alter that anyway?

[dim minnow]

took one of his eyes

[trim grotto]

[empty fern]

(I’m late hush)

[trim grotto]

Martian Missives is almost entirely Savathûn bullshitting to you

[empty fern]

Ah damnit

[dim minnow]

Martian Missives is a load of bs and was a waste of a Lore Book slot

[trim grotto]

"Woah hey Guardian it's me Osiris, you should totally kill me if I act weird."
"Hey Guardian, that isn't Osiris, I have the real one here. Signed, Caiatl. P.S. Kill him."

[empty fern]

F

I’m looking for more fallen books (besides weave cocoon)

[worldly river]

Damnit, Savathun, you magnificent bastard, you've been grooming Crow just for this eventuality this whole time haven't you

[dim minnow]

we could of gotten Books of Rememoration

[empty fern]

What’s the context?

[trim grotto]

Only one (maybe two) message are actually real and they both amount to "hey guardian be careful, sav is doing wacky things, pay attention and keep doing your job"

[empty fern]

Very helpful I see

[dim minnow]

Books of Rememoration are suppsoed to detail Savathun's journey from her death at the end of Lost to WQ

[empty fern]

Ooo, where did we find out about this?

[dim minnow]

these entries were limited to the lore tabs of the exotic class glaives

[empty fern]

A collectors book?

Oh

[dim minnow]

they could of just taken Books of Rememoration and expanded upon them

[empty fern]

Zavalas ghost is named “Targe”?

[trim grotto]

ye

[empty fern]

Neat, first I’ve heard of it

[empty fern]

[trim grotto]

fitting that The Titan™️ has a Ghost named after a shield

[empty fern]

First it was the fist now it’s bubble

[blazing wasp]

Demoman

[empty fern]

Do we know what corrupted the shard of the traveler in the edz?

[trim grotto]

The Collapse itself

Specific encounter unspecified

[empty fern]

Damn

Another thing I found

(This was when crow was helping eris shoot a golden gun)
Wait nvm because well and the upcoming void axes and the Shaw han lore already exists

Fuck

[trim grotto]

let me guess
"why did the flamey gun not burn her hands"

[empty fern]

No no,
“How did a lightless use the light”

[dim minnow]

because this game does not feature friendly fire

[dim minnow]

most of the time

[worldly river]

I mean he formed the gun, she just pulled the trigger

[dim minnow]

and we all know that several gameplay elements are established in lore

[empty fern]

Clearly you haven’t played with stasis wall teammates

[trim grotto]

with her hands

[empty fern]

True true

(Which is why I listed the other things so FUUUUU)

[blazing wasp]

Use golden gun for melee if its so hot

[empty fern]

“New exotic arms that just uses your super as a throwable(hammer) for some damage

[dim minnow]

just pistol whip that mf

[blazing wasp]

Yomi hustle

[worldly river]

I mean if we get this next week... then it might be a bit more than a step, lol

[dim minnow]

so either next week Crow goes through and we won't see him until TFS

or someone does something stupid and sets us back

[worldly river]

tbh my expectation is we wrap the main story next week with us grabbign the final egg, but then we've gotta actually make the wish afterwards and do that whole thing so that might be an epilogue

[slim elk]

Headcanon at present is Crow meeting "Cayde" beyond the portal

Cue little bit of a freak out and Crow getting hunted by Cayde

The trailer implies Cayde is unaware of anything after his death..
So the last he heard of Uldren was when he got shot...

[empty fern]

(A random guardian comes by and tells osiris how to enter without riven leading to an argument in the helm and we banish riven, again?)
Source is trust me

[chrome fog]

To where they are on Neptune, they’re lucky there’s a beach of diamond sand for the city to be established upon

Ok nah I’m not reading all that I’ve missed, I can tell it’s more complaining about Lightfall

[chrome fog]

People theorized it was more metacontextual - especially with the subtitle for the wish that was datamined - but in all honesty it’s more likely it was being saved for a situation like current

[chrome fog]

It was but going into 2023 and Lightfall’s release date they addressed that they wouldn’t be able to fit everything that they wanted to develop prior to ending the Light and Darkness Saga, which is why it became split up between Lightfall and Final Shape

[chrome fog]

That’s in your head tho not what is canon; though technically speaking that can be your personal canon, but it’s not applicable to all so it’s misleading to claim so

Ok done, that was horrible

[worldly river]

Honestly I'm not even convinced that this wasn't, on some level, a planned plotline anyway

Mostly because it lines up WAY TOO WELL that Savathun was steering Crow towards this exact purpose since Beyond Light

Specifically getting Crow set up with the Vanguard and then pushing him to reconcile and re-establish his relationship Mara by giving him his memories back

Like there's retroactive continuity but this fits way too well to not look planned, which would track given they had already had an end envisioned when BL shipped hence announcing the expansions leading to the end of the saga

If anything, I think maybe some of the material from WQ and LF's Seasons were envisioned later to fill holes
Maybe originally it would have, more or less, gone Risen, Seraph, Witch, Wish
Haunted, Plunder, Defiance, and Deep, are seasons where less of narrative significance happens but lean more into the character focus, might've been invented to fill the gaps or smaller plotlines expanded to full seasons (maybe Deep and Witch would've been the same plotline, once upon a time? Wish was somehow part of the expansion? Or maybe Seraph was invented later?)

[muted hemlock]

So, you know when we’re crushing hive ghosts and we hear them screaming, since they’re bonded to hive, are they screaming in Hive?

If so, is it safe to assume that the ghosts and their hive guardians regularly have conversations in hive?

[gentle geyser]

I mean most likely

All the sounds they make are hive like and the main orb is almost like hive magic

So they most likely are

They can probably just switch between languages

[snow plover]

Do the eliksni fear saint 14 or used too?

[trim grotto]

Used to. Non-House Light Eliksni likely still do.

[snow plover]

And vex too right?

[slim elk]

Less fear. More respect

They literally gave him a tomb

[snow plover]

Oh ok

[blazing wasp]

vex dont really "fear"

i dont think they can

[jagged badge]

Tbf, when we reforged the Lament, they tried to stop that. It clearly registered majorly as a negative thing to them

I don’t know if that’s exactly fear, but I wouldn’t call that respect

[blazing wasp]

Probably just aware that the lament is bad news for them, not necessarily fear, but similar I suppose

[jagged badge]

Yeah. It’s definitely more than a tactical response though, because they weren’t targeting the Lament because it’s a particularly powerful weapon, but because of what the Lament means to them

Which means shit like this registers on some level to the Vex

[chrome fog]

I say as much already. They had the option to either keep it as a commentary thing on the player base or actually utilize it, which they did the latter

[blazing wasp]

Good point, curious

[jagged badge]

My name’s Eris, not curious

[blazing wasp]

But eris is a person to be curious about

[peak coral]

smart comeback

[worldly river]

Just noticed the constellations for Starcrossed show up in the ceiling of the Wish HELM area

Probably doesn't mean anything but it's neat

[jagged badge]

Oooh nice find

[outer dragon]

Fug i need to do those

Im too lazy

[outer dragon]

Tell that to Saint

Bro scared them so much they spent expensive resources into killing him

[jagged badge]

Saint was the context of that conversation lmao

[dim minnow]

looking at some guy talk about the Witness vs the Man in the Wall and apparently we are above 10th dimensional whatever that's suposed to mean

[jagged badge]

Those power scaling terms are dumb as shit lmao

It’s always weird specific stuff like “my character is nine solar systems level while your character is can rip a petal off a flower level”

[snow plover]

Do either shaxx or saint 14 have a preferred melee weapon or just preferred weapon in general?

[dim minnow]

we know Shaxx used Raze-Lighter

Saint likes his Sentinel Shield

[jagged badge]

Saint tends to have the Perfect Paradox shotgun

[dim minnow]

Perfect Paradox/Bastion for Saint

I don't remember any specific weapons other than Raze-Lighter for Shaxx

[snow plover]

Ah ok