📚lore-discussion

[worldly river]

Interesting that Elsie presents the idea of Stasis being similar to Void

I wonder if that's an idea Bungie could elaborate on later for any reason, or if Strand could be mapped as similar to Solar or Arc

[chrome fog]

I mean, Void use was similarly ostracized because supposedly it got Lightbearers too close to the Darkness they were supposed to combat, plus both require dominating levels of willpower to exert control over

[worldly river]

as Elsie puts it
``EB: In my view, the goal of Stasis is not to control the object, or even my own mind. It's to change my perspective. To see the object moving at the speed of my thoughts, not the speed of matter.

CZ: And just… seeing it differently is enough?

EB: Is that so hard to imagine? It's very similar to how you use Void Light—manipulating spacetime and gravitational fields. In fact, I would argue that Void has more in common with Stasis than it does with Solar or Arc. Perhaps they're reverse sides of the same coin.``

Frankly I don't even entirely understand her explanation or how to really relates to Void

Completely unrelated but the decoded text of Scatter Signal implies the Exotic mission in the Black Garden may be related to the return (somehow) of the Black Heart

[ember storm]

I mean there was just a vex mind in D1 responsible for rebuilding the black heart

so

[worldly river]

A churning singularity of shadow and mimicry beats again within cultivated chaos. Minds orbits gravity, to bridge communion with a Voice, to move from parallel to entanglement. They dream of a dark core, contained within a timeless structure. A suspended return to the primordial. If not for this truth, why kneel? If not for this truth, why does it elude definition? Though not all agree on all, all agree on this. Sol is Salvation.

[dim minnow]

that's what that one lore entry says right?

the one that is clearly some coded message

[worldly river]

Yeah the Hexidcimal one being sent (?) by Osiris

[ember storm]

also I like the sword’s lore

it’s fun

I like fun

[worldly river]

Churning singularity of shadow
Mimicry
Bridge to communion with a Voice
Dark core contained within a timeless structure

Whether there is or not, definitely don't read the lore tab of the Exotic bow if you don't wanna be spoiled, even though it's visible

Very much like the ship lore tab from Deep being visible in collections spoiling Ahsa's nature as a relative of the Worm Gods, except in regards to the Exotic mission

[sterile jasper]

Perhaps this will be the threat after d2, and maybe if thats the case then, D1 is the timeline that saves d2

I dunno

[chrome fog]

It’s the same timeline for both, Young Wolf in D1 is the same player character in D2

[ember storm]

I honestly don’t see them ever using the black heart again

we destroyed it and learned it was just a shitty copy of something we can just walk down to neomuna for now

there’s no real purpose or threat to the black heart

[worldly river]

One of the Ghost shells very strongly implies our actions with the Ahamkara eggs will unleash its own unforseen consequences in the new saga

[peak coral]

at this point kelgo is being fought by us AS MUCH AS TANIKS

[ember storm]

the moment the sol divisive got access to other sources of darkness they just gave up on it

[sleek matrix]

Not just that

It felt like we just gotta do what riven says for now

[ember storm]

you have to kill them with 1k voices for mental damage

[sleek matrix]

Mara mainly implied

[ember storm]

I mean it’s basically just how witch went about it now

[sleek matrix]

And i dont see her coming up with some sort of master plan

[worldly river]

Do you have deep enough vision to foresee the consequences of your action? All the players you've sent scrambling for their next move?
So much power in the world. So much about to enter it. It makes one think about all the uses that power could be put to.

[ember storm]

we both really need this deal to go through

[sleek matrix]

Since she said at first what finding the eggs would mean overall

Theres a good reason the hunt happened

[worldly river]

I will say I love how when Riven presents the deal you can visibly see Mara about to object, stop, and realize she doesn't have a damn choice before relenting

[sleek matrix]

Yes and thats what the deal is based off

Mutual benefit

[slim elk]

Its the deal with Savathun all over again

[sleek matrix]

Yes unfortunately

[slim elk]

Deal with the Devil or the Witness wins

[gentle geyser]

Riven a cutie so its worth

[worldly river]

Deal with two devils

[sleek matrix]

Even with the talk with osiris this seems the only way to get through the portal

[chrome fog]

Much, much more than that, dude was coming back every Seraph Moon thing, the one he was for idk

[slim elk]

Taniks kept escalating as a threat
Kelgo.. more of a joke

[ember storm]

Taniks was always a joke

[sleek matrix]

But idk if it would be a whole new saga

[ember storm]

he was never escalated as a threat

[sleek matrix]

Most likely an episode

[ember storm]

him showing up in dsc was just a funny moment and then “bro he looks fucking weird” in last phase

[slim elk]

Taniks did go from strike boss to raid boss so...

[chrome fog]

I do wanna see if Riven tries to divert the expectation, she really does want her clutch to live in seclusion, in peace away from everything else that wants to use their powers

[ember storm]

but he didn’t fucking do anything

there wasn’t a threat

Clovis activated nuclear descent protocol on his own

the morning star was already destroyed

Taniks really wouldn’t have done a lot if we never pulled him out of the rubble

[gentle geyser]

Whats this we shit he pulled himself out

[ember storm]

only when we get close so he can do a haha gotcha moment

if we just left he’d just lay there forever

[gentle geyser]

Taniks went from strike boss, to ghost, to raid boss, and now to ghost shell

[chrome fog]

I am interested in seeing if the Heresy episode is gonna feature multiple factions of Hive-adjacent broods who withhold different interpretations of the Sword Logic; see Kelgorath maybe taking the mantle of Taken King or whatever the hell, Xivu also upholding traditional Sword Logic as the Last Hive God, the Lucent Hive as an obvious heretical twist

[gentle geyser]

Lucent Hive based

[chrome fog]

Goofy goobers taking the technicalities of their leader and going “sure”

[gentle geyser]

They weaponized moths with electrical C4

[chrome fog]

It even gives them shield, I call hacks Joe Bungo

HA Misraaks with the fishing metaphor

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/appetence

[cloud gust]

What was OXA?

[dim minnow]

the OXA is a device that can look into the past as well as potentially predict the future

it was made by the Psions and has been destroyed and recreated various times

most notably, it was rebuilt under Calus' reign over the Cabal Empire by Otzot

[chrome fog]

Hahahaha, I love the seasonal vendor weapon

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/chivalric-fire

[ember storm]

is it just me or is it vaguely vexy

and this is an original weapon that Banshee made all on his own (albeit with some specifics from the playlist vendors)

oh boy this is refueling my cope for banshee/clovis relevance

[chrome fog]

In fairness, some of the exotic armor ornaments have also been a bit vexy and there’s one exotic weapon ornament that also vexifies

So hmmm maybe some theory crafting could be at play later in the week

[worldly edge]

Is that sword easy to get?

[ebon wharf]

Ik that Ahamkara's are these magical, supernatural dragons and I was curious if riven was just one of those or if she was a special Ahamkara in any way

[smoky rose]

She’s kinda special

Namely because Mara worked with the vanguard to exterminate every single other Ahamkara

But kept riven secret

So she was the only one with access to one

So Riven is special in the sense that she’s the last Ahamkara

Or was rather

We kinda killed her and all that

Mild oopsie given the dreaming city curse

[ebon wharf]

And how did that work? Was there an agreement or no cause couldn't riven just do as she pleased?

[smoky rose]

Idk she was contained within the spire in the dreaming city

Mara used wishes to make the dreaming city in the first place

Not sure if there was some clause to keep riven there

[ebon wharf]

Ahamkara's can grant more than one wish? And what could've "contained" her? Isn't she a quite literally a reality warping dragon?

Or something of that sort?

[dim minnow]

Techeun magic is nothing to scoff at

and Mara probably used some Ahamkara magic as well

[smoky rose]

Oh yeah absolutely

You can just walk up to one and wish whatever you want

That’s why the vanguard wanted them all killed

Fucking dangerous

[dim minnow]

and the fact that these wishes never end up well for you

[umbral dagger]

hey um, can anyone share the concept art of the 5th race

from waaay back

[umbral dagger]

yup

just one guy.. so maybe it was planned all along?

and darkness

ok i have another question

is the darkness like strand but without color?

[trim grotto]

Strand is Darkness.

Just... a form of it.

[trim grotto]

It was not. Not back then, not in this form. They didn't know what form the Darkness would take back in pre-D1.

[umbral dagger]

hm

[fresh zephyr]

isn't strand not exactly light nor darkness, it's kinda just grey?

a mix of the two?

[jagged badge]

No, it’s explicitly Darkness

[fresh zephyr]

huh

I guess I'm confusing it with the veil

[jagged badge]

Not sure where you got that from tbh

[jagged badge]

The Veil which is also just Darkness?

[fresh zephyr]

what

I think I just entirely misunderstood lightfall lmfao

[jagged badge]

The Veil is essentially the Darkness equivalent of the Traveler

[fresh zephyr]

ah

[ember storm]

big purple mushroom do bad things

[blazing wasp]

Oppenheimer with purple tinted glasses

[narrow merlin]

Strand didn’t come from the Traveler’s Light, it originated near the Veil, which makes it a power of darkness

[empty fern]

Ok

[jagged badge]

It didn’t originate near the Veil. Strand is everywhere. The Veil just exposed concentrations of it we would otherwise not have perceived

[narrow merlin]

Ah ok

[chrome fog]

It’s the ritual weapon, so you can probably grind strikes, crucible, or gambit to get it

[little gorge]

*in the long term

[ember storm]

doesn’t have to be in the long term

it can just happen as soon as you make the wish

for example Eris wished for the way out of the hellmouth and the ahamkara literally just removed her eyes after giving her the knowledge of where to go

[worldly river]

https://tenor.com/view/asdf-it-says-gullible-on-the-ceiling-ah-you-stole-my-lungs-gif-19322533

About the same energy tbh

[fallow sky]

Geez i hate mara so much

[ember storm]

if you hate her now I don’t know how you’d survive back in forsaken

[chrome fog]

Boy wait til you hear about Petra’s past, with all her build up as Queen Mara’s biggest simp

[fallow sky]

I played forsaken when it came out, hated her then, hate her now

[ember storm]

cool

[umbral dagger]

lore gang tell me some lore

i feel sad and want to feel better

[ember storm]

doghives

[umbral dagger]

wat

[void kettle]

doghives

[umbral dagger]

who changed eris was it crota?

[ember storm]

in one of Clovis Bray’s journals he complains about not knowing what to get Elsie for her birthday (he’s a shit human being and doesn’t know what love is) and ultimately decides to just give her a doghive because “everyone loves doghives”

the concept is never mentioned again but we did have a comment one time from the writer of that particular lore piece

[umbral dagger]

lmao

how did eris become part hive?

not her recent change, like

the og one

[ember storm]

well do you know how she and her fireteam went to the moon to try and kill Crota

[umbral dagger]

yup

[ember storm]

they failed and she got trapped in the hellmouth

the only way she got out is because she had a little ahamkara bone to make a wish with

so she wished to know how to get out of the hellmouth

the wish gave her the knowledge of the route to escape

but it took away her eyes

like literally just gone from the sockets

so she got new ones donated from a very generous (dead) acolyte

[umbral dagger]

she just took them?

from a dead body/

[ember storm]

well it wasn’t dead when she found it

[umbral dagger]

a pact?

or she killed him

[ember storm]

no she just killed it

I was trying to be funny

[umbral dagger]

ok

lol

[shadow warren]

How does that even work without making a wish

[umbral dagger]

so shes not got a worm in her then

[shadow warren]

Like biologically

[ember storm]

no

[ember storm]

Hive are magic

don’t think hard about it

[shadow warren]

Magic

[umbral dagger]

so whats the ball thingy?

she carry

[ember storm]

it’s the ahamkara bone

[umbral dagger]

oooh

[ember storm]

she keeps it in a ball of soulfire to “control” it but it still whispers

[umbral dagger]

but its not got any wishes left in it huh

[ember storm]

she just knows better than to use it

[chrome fog]

Fun Fact: the fireteam died because Toland found some Deathsingers and being a big Sword Logic simp, he didn’t tell anyone else and let the Deathsong kill the fireteam

So Eris has that floating ball to blame

[smoky rose]

Wishing is always a monkeys paw

[umbral dagger]

what a turd

[umbral dagger]

wish i had a monkeys paw to make a wish

[smoky rose]

I don't think you do

[umbral dagger]

ok then i just wish i could make wishes

[smoky rose]

"I wish to be rich"

gets drowned in money

[umbral dagger]

ide swim to the top

[smoky rose]

It's gold coins

Very heavy

[umbral dagger]

ide gamble my way out

[chrome fog]

That’s beside the point, basically your wish will never turn out like you wanted, even though it technically follows your demand

[umbral dagger]

i see

so

these wish dragons.. are just going to trick us again

[chrome fog]

Which is what the monkey’s paw is, it’s the more prominent universal example for “something that fucks up your wishes purposefully”

[umbral dagger]

why are we falling for it

[chrome fog]

We killed them all because of that

And then, Mara also had Riven and only gave her wishes via the Wishing Wall

[umbral dagger]

but this season is gonna be about one?

[chrome fog]

It’s about her eggs

[umbral dagger]

to find the witness?

hm

i know how to find the witness

[chrome fog]

We know where the Witness is

But we can’t go through the portal

[umbral dagger]

pale heart?

i can get there

[chrome fog]

Joxer’s mangled corpse fused to the hull of his ship would say otherwise

[umbral dagger]

the way to get there is via the black garden

im betting

[chrome fog]

It’s not actual connected to the Garden

[umbral dagger]

all in

[chrome fog]

It’s a simulation

Not the real deal

[umbral dagger]

i got so much catching up in destiny gameplay to do -.-

ive actually not even logged on out of fear

[chrome fog]

It’s pretty fun

And the lore tabs for seasonal stuff is juicy

[slim elk]

Big question of the season.
||What trick is Riven going to pull with the wish to get us through the portal?||

[empty fern]

The wish magical kind

Also wonder what ruins lore will be

[ember storm]

||it says gullible on the ceiling and then slaps mara in the face and disappears||

[chrome fog]

Sjur Eido : )

[little gorge]

trailer kinda spoils it ngl

"you knew since the beginning"

that has to be related to sjur

[chrome fog]

No I mean, the "inner most desire" of Mara

She miss her gf

[little gorge]

yes

I'm pretty sure that's what riven knew

[ember storm]

imagine the only confidant you have left being PV

[gentle geyser]

||my bet is that the wish has some kind of “its only one way” shit applied that will get solved after the final shape is done||

But I could be easily mistaken and wrong

[dim minnow]

this might end with Riven not granting that wish at all

and then Osiris comes in with the clutch

and figures out how we can use our Ghosts to get through

[jagged badge]

Two whole seasons, resurrecting Savathûn and charming Riven, all to get through the portal and then we use a different method would be so funny tbh

[dim minnow]

two seasons of us getting involved in a bargain so we can follow the Witness

same shit, different ass

[hollow zealot]

without searching it up

who said this quote

"The Dominus was a strong leader, but the Red Legion had more to offer than simply overwhelming force. They think us weak and insipid. I will show them the might of the Red Legion, and they shall not forget"

[full prairie]

Was it the one guy from the raid that everyone hated

I don't remember his name

[hollow zealot]

"the raid that everyone hated"

so specific sir

😄

[peak coral]

no thats NOT from gos

[peak coral]

uh fuck uhh val cauor?

idk

[hollow zealot]

bingo

[peak coral]

yey!

[full prairie]

Ok the one we're we helped the calus kill some perpetrator and it was annyoing because you had to go on plates and throw balls and then throw it ships and then dps sucked to

[hollow zealot]

ive never done spire but that sounds awesome

[full prairie]

Who is val cauor

[hollow zealot]

spire of stars raid lair boss

[full prairie]

So it was the guy I was talking about

[hollow zealot]

yea

[full prairie]

Wow

Can't believe I was right

[peak coral]

the funny

one person: has done spire, doesnt know the boss name
another: never done spire, knows boss name

[dim minnow]

I remember taking the ball in the jump puzzle section while not picking up the cloud so that I get to watch my teammates who did pick up the cloud die because I won't give them the ball

[chrome fog]

“The” Calus, that’s funny

[grand jungle]

how much of a threat is mara actually?

[trim grotto]

A threat? To whom?

[grand jungle]

to us if she ever changed

[dim minnow]

it is implied that she can split the Dreaming City in two

[trim grotto]

If she ever moved against us?
She has gone toe to toe with Xivu and Savathûn in her own way. Not direct war, but nonetheless.

She's dangerous.

She's a lot like Savathûn in many ways.

[grand jungle]

ah so not like face to face fighter

hv we seen her full power?

[trim grotto]

We have... reports.
She shattered a Pyramid.

[gentle geyser]

So what Im gathering is she is NOT strike boss level

[trim grotto]

Correct. Also, despite the Shattered nature of it, Eleusinia is still an active and functional Throne World.

[ember storm]

the witness rang her up for a reason

it doesn’t go after any old shmoes

[dim minnow]

granted we don't know if she can replicate that

[dim minnow]

also, have I mentioned by theory about Mara and the Witness to you yet?

[trim grotto]

I don't think so

[dim minnow]

ok, so basically, my theory is that Mara could have originated from the Witness in some way

like maybe the Witness is the one who made her into the first Awoken

my theory stems from the fact that all other Awoken (at least the Reefborn's) minds are linked to her own

should be restated that Mara's powers did not surface until after they left the Distributary

[slim elk]

Something potentially of note. The Awoken are effectively a result of a "mix" of Light-Dark clashing way back in the Collapse right?

Latest veil log had speculations on using connections against the Witness, but its hit the giant wall that the whole season is about cirvumventing

And theres the Elephant in the room everyones ignoring for now that the Ahamkara dont give you what you wish for exactly.

[dim minnow]

the point of the Wishing Wall is to circumvent that

[slim elk]

I'm just calling thats probably going to be the rationale to explain the dead air between Wish and Final Shape

[dim minnow]

there are the weekly "wishes" and Into the Light

[slim elk]

Talking the inherent dead air between season storys and the next content package.
Heck, Mara even referenced the issue with "feast upon the difference between desire and reality"

Got to be some explanation why we dont immediately head through the portal when the storys over

[dim minnow]

you think we will actually die and Riven uses the Last Wish to revive us?

[slim elk]

Nah
Someone may have to make a sacrifice though

[dim minnow]

we've got to die at some point though

[slim elk]

We do, all the time. Guardians even made a science out of it lol

[dim minnow]

I'm talking final death

we are already set up for that

we've seen our own grave and Quria references it

[slim elk]

If a final death will happen anywhere, will be in Final Shape most likely

[little gorge]

well

the story will probably not be over immediately

there's probably a finale mission

how that ties in with into the light and the delay is another question tho

[little gorge]

maybe she'd do that for 1 person but remember all our allies are in the pale heart

[ember storm]

wait where there ghosts on the crystals the entire time and i never noticed them

[empty fern]

Yep, remember savathuns song strike? Yea

Oh wait that is the song strike

[ember storm]

they only ever mentioned the squad of nine and never the ghosts so I never thought about the ghosts

rip bozos

[ember storm]

also no it was the exclusive thorn mission version of the strike

[empty fern]

Oh oops

[chrome fog]

In fairness they were investigating reports of missing guardians

[slim elk]

Savathun never stopped making those crystals either.
Just does it to her own brood now

[empty fern]

Naturally sourced guardians or
Synthetic moths
Seems like an obvious choice in the long ron

[worldly river]

Aren't the relic crystals from Season of the Witch basically just a refined version of that?

I remember a tab where she kept ripping the light out of her Lightbearers to shove it into various elemented crystals

[slim elk]

Yep
Exactly the tab I referenced

[prime rover]

what's the moonrock snowglobe eris carries around and what's it for

[ember storm]

it’s the ahamkara bone she used to escape the hellmouth and for miscellaneous spells

[empty fern]

Hivey spells

[prime rover]

what's the relevant information on hellmouth

I know the bit about eriss fireteam getting killed because toland got a hard on for hive magic or whatever it was and let them get killed

but that's more or less all I know about it

[worldly river]

It is a fortress built in the hole leading down into Crota's Throne World, the Oversoul Throne

Also refers to the hole itself

[prime rover]

so she got stuck in there after the whole gang died how

[worldly river]

Her Ghost got killed

So she basically had to go survivalist down there cuz it's not exactly easy to escape from the fortress and it's nearly endless network of tunnels if you don't have Light powers

[prime rover]

oh so the fireteam went in there to kill crota or someone else important I assume and got killed in there

and the bone was just... there in the throne world?

[worldly river]

Yeah they went down to kill Crota because Crota wiped out thousands of Guardians during the Great Disaster, including Wei Ning who was the lover of the fireteam's leader, Eriana-3

[prime rover]

what's a quick rundown of the great disaster

[worldly river]

Big failed military campaign by the Vanguard to launch a counter-invasion of the Moon after Crota and his Hidden Swarm emerged there

...lotta people died

[ember storm]

hive were first encountered on earth during some battle, the vanguard jumped the gun and tried all out war to wipe them out on the moon

didn’t work

we just left them alone hoping they’d leave us alone afterward up until right around when D1 starts

[worldly river]

the bone is actually something she picked up from a dead Ahamkara during the Great Hunt, and when her Ghost died she turned to it's power to guide her out

[ember storm]

our character is actually the one to confirm the hive are beginning to invade earth so we go to the moon to investigate

and ultimately kill Crota and all that

[prime rover]

so how did the reddish ghosts happen cuz I assume normal guardian permadeaths don't end like that

great hunt?

like ghost ghost not floaty robo ghost

[ember storm]

those are nightmares

they’re not ghosts

[worldly river]

The Great Hunt was when the Vanguard and Awoken collectively hunted the Ahamkara to extinction

Or near extinction, rather

[ember storm]

they’re a form of darkness just tapping into your individual trauma and pain

specifically because of nezarec’s pyramid and whatever

[worldly river]

Anyway the red Nightmares are a manifestation of trauma invoked as a defense mechanism of the Pyramid on the Moon

Yeh

When it became active in Shadowkeep is when the Nightmares started appearing

[prime rover]

what was the purpose of that, to discourage further occupation from both hive and us?

or something else entirely

[ember storm]

Nezarec is the Final God of Pain so his pyramid is just continually emitting nightmare juices

but specially the Witness was just using it to see if we were worth looking into

which then led to it trying to entice us with stasis in BL

[prime rover]

so if anything it was more of a lure

[ember storm]

Shadowkeep culminated in the witness inviting us into the pyramid and dangling long-lasting trauma in front of us to go “the traveler is pretty cringe come with us instead”

I don’t really know what it expected us to think when it specifically referenced Cayde’s death as a fault of the light

in the grand scheme of things, it’s the witness’ own fault

[prime rover]

ogey so back to the ahamkara thing

how do you kill a genie creature

can it not give itself wishes

[worldly river]

That was the initial theory, but in Haunted Eris changes her mind and says it's a defense mechanism to prevent tampering with the Pyramid

[prime rover]

or did we get ourselves something to protect against the whole ahamkara magic stuff

during the great hunt

and I guess last wish to a lesser extent

[worldly river]

Ahamkara Wish magic works in bargains afaik, so I don't think it can be utilized on the self, though they have their own abilities like being able to change their form

Frankly I don't know much about it

Awoken and Awoken adjacent shit is a weak spot for me

[prime rover]

yeah hopefully someone else can come along and enlighten me

also I guess another question would be how magic from their bones work since bones probably can't grant wishes

[ember storm]

the bones are sentient

they transcend death

it’s why being killed largely wasn’t a big deal for them

if anything it makes things better because now they’re actively sought after as artifacts and the only ones handling their bones are going to be huge generators of sustenance

[prime rover]

so was the great hunt like a massive waste of time or something

[ember storm]

no

we needed ahamkara dead otherwise they’d be flocking around the solar system doing whatever they wanted

as bones a deal specifically has to be made and they can’t really “go” anywhere

in terms of getting people to wish on you, being bones is pretty good

as an organism you’d just prefer not being dead tho

[prime rover]

did the ahamkara just grant random wishes when they were alive then or did they just use it on whoever they wanted whenever they wanted

[ember storm]

literally anything

the myth that they just “granted wishes” was something they exploited

because going up to a creature that feeds on desire, with the full intention and expectation of having your literal wishes come true

it gives them a lot to work with

but they really just did whatever they wanted with their power

there was the one who caught a bunch of awoken in a song and had them dance off a cliff in droves

and the whole deal with Venus and a guardian committing suicide

[prime rover]

so how did we kill them during the great hunt when they could probably have just fed off each other's desires to survive

and during last wish as well

[ember storm]

not how it works

it’s not “oh you want a new car yes this feeling is feeding me”

also riven wanted to be killed

literally throughout the entire raid she’s begging you to kill her

I shouldn’t have to explain that part

[prime rover]

I never really got what was going on in last wish other than the general killing-riven bit

did she have to die to grant uhhh savathuns? wish

for like the permanent timeloop thing

and what was the purpose behind that wish anyways

[ember storm]

for riven, she gets a ton of payback against the awoken, who exploited her to make the dreaming city and kept her locked up her whole life

for Savathun, all the trickery generated Imbaru, a form of sword logic tapping into her nature as the god of deceit, was basically an automatic generator to give her power

[prime rover]

so this is sort of a shot in the dark but

was the dreaming city more or less a city built around riven to keep her locked up once she was hatched or captured or whatever

[ember storm]

anyway, ahamkara fed on actualizing desires and making them reality

[tawdry mauve]

not really

[ember storm]

they used her wishes to create it

Mara specifically

[tawdry mauve]

they used riven to build it

but it wasnt built for riven

"The Dreaming City is the Reefborn Awoken's most significant stronghold. It was created by Mara Sov after her departure from the Distributary as her personal realm, with the aid of the Ahamkara Riven's wish-magic and the Techeun Coven Mother Illyn."

basically they wanted some kind of safe space where they could do awoken stuff in peace

also its named after the "dreaming"

which is another group of entities closely related to the awoken

[prime rover]

so what made riven that mad about it

did the awoken benefit from it more than she did or what

[ember storm]

a direct quote from Riven:

“Even paradise is a prison when you cannot leave.”

also she just didn’t really like Mara

[prime rover]

they kept her trapped in the city to keep it powered then?

would it decay or evaporate or whatever if she didn't stay close

[ember storm]

just to keep her there

[tawdry mauve]

in prison

because the ahamkaras were terrorizing the awoken

the alternative was to kill her

which we ended up doing

after she was taken

[ember storm]

to use her, and the great hunt already happened where both the vanguard and awoken hunted all other ahamkara to extinction

[prime rover]

so they literally wished up a prison for her under the guise of a dreaming city

[ember storm]

the city was a city

[prime rover]

and they got a dreaming city anyways so it was a two for one deal?

[ember storm]

they lived there

she was just trapped in the center

[tawdry mauve]

no

the dreaming city was made to be livable

for the awoken

after they were done constructing it

mara just wished for riven to be trapped inside the keep

[prime rover]

and she just let it happen? or was it a package deal then

or was she fine with it at first

[tawdry mauve]

no

she is definetely not fine with it

but she also cant just not grant the wish

mara basically used her to build the city and then imprisoned her

[prime rover]

ahamkara can't refuse wishes?

or was she not in a position to refuse

[tawdry mauve]

they can refuse wishes

she just did in the newest season

but mara effectively tricked her

to keep it simple

[prime rover]

back to eris

what did she trade for whatever she got to escape the hellmouth

and what's with the hive bits she got

like the eyes and the general chunks she got on her hands and shoulders

is it from being stuck in the throne world for that long or

[tawdry mauve]

she wasnt stuck in crotas throne world

she was stuck in hellmouth

[smoky rose]

Something something she learned the way out but lost her eyes

So take eyes from acolyte

[tawdry mauve]

she got an ahamkara wish

from the bone she had

[smoky rose]

That may not be 100% accurate I haven’t read the lore in a while

But it’s close enough

[tawdry mauve]

With the rest of the fireteam dead and her Ghost, Brya drained of Light and eventually perishing as well, Eris was left alone in the depths of the Hive's warrens. With little option, Eris held the bone of an Ahamkara she kept since the Great Hunt that began to whisper, guiding her way through the lunar tunnels. Against all odds, she managed to survive in the Hellmouth's shadowy warrens for years using their dark tactics against them, despite her previous concerns about wielding weapons of Darkness. She lost her eyes to the Hive but replaced them with those of an Acolyte, the third eye included. Eris learned much about the Hive, its hierarchy, and how to wield some of their magic. She also had access to a copy of Toland's journal, which aided her greatly in her staying alive in the warrens and expanding her knowledge of the Hive. ```

[prime rover]

what did she trade as in like

in the wish she made

[ember storm]

are you reading off the wiki page

cringe

[ember storm]

they’re not always deals

ahamkara just like to fuck you over when you ask for something

usually specifically because you’re not making a deal you’re just trying to use them

Eris wanted the way out of the hellmouth so the ahamkara told her where to go

and then just took away her eyes

[prime rover]

and did the vanguard and mara let guardians keep ahamkara bones after they killed em or was it like an unofficial thing like crimson the gun

where they more or less couldn't stop them even if they did know

[versed orbit]

Prolly unofficial

Mara can’t really stop guardians from doing shit

[prime rover]

riven got taken some time before last wish?

how did both the darkness and savathun get to her if she was stuck in the dreaming city

or did something happen in d1 where the hive and taken got in there somehow

[versed orbit]

Oryx took her

[chrome fog]

Kill it dead. Kill it hard. You get to do so in the Last Wish raid with Taken Riven.

Just a lot of will

[prime rover]

but our desire was literally to kill her right

was that how they did it during the great hunt

[chrome fog]

Helps that Paracausality is innately capable of fulfilling what one wills, as seen with Throneworlds, with the Ahamkara, the evolution of Ascendent Hive, just even subclass element abilities magicking stuff into existence

[chrome fog]

Just wanting to kill it bad

[prime rover]

so how did savathun get to riven

or did she tag along when oryx did

[chrome fog]

Oh to specify, the Great Hunt was actually the Vanguard’s order, though Queen Mara also supported the effort and advocated for it

[chrome fog]

I don’t know myself, to be fair

[little gorge]

isn't it also implied that riven made the weapons used in it

[chrome fog]

Yeah

That could’ve been it granting on-the-whim wishes, like those demonstrated in one of the armor tabs

I think it’s the legs for this season

Nope the class item

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/wyrmguard-bond

Guardians are loot oriented, so in the Great Hunt their desire for gear could have been granted

It’s similar to how our desire to really kill Riven gave her the power to enact the Curse on the Dreaming City

[prime rover]

did she have to die to curse the dreaming city or

also, how did riven being taken like

affect the status quo

[chrome fog]

Considering that she remained of her own will, it didn’t do much

[chrome fog]

Very much so; our desire to make her death a reality and then make it so feed her the power to make the Curse a reality

[prime rover]

like how did it make the vanguard/awoken decide that she needed to die now but not before

what were the details of the dreaming city curse

was it just that it would be taken and loop 3 weeks forever

or was it just for the city to be taken and the time loop was like a bandaid fix to stop complete corruption

[chrome fog]

The Dreaming City was not accessible until after Forsaken, when we encounter the Taken Chimera is revealed to be manipulating Uldren; Mara was kind hoping it could’ve been kept under wraps, that the revelation there was one last Ahamkara wouldn’t have to be known, but the Taken Ahamkara gave us knowledge that she was Taken

As for the curse, basically all the Awoken and everyone in the Dreaming City are stuck in a three week loop

The Curse was overseen by I believe three of Savathun’s kids, we kill them

I believe that’s the Shattered Throne dungeon, where we do that

I’m not very knowledgeable on the Dreaming City, but that’s my understanding

[prime rover]

what was the taken whatsit corrupting uldren to do again

[chrome fog]

Every three weeks everything resets to how it was at the beginning of the Curse

[prime rover]

I remember the forsaken prison breakout exists but literally nothing else about it

[chrome fog]

Hint at Riven being Taken, lead us to killing Riven so that our desire to kill her - as she was ultimately the reason behind Cayde’s death - could give enough power to enact the Curse

Uldren himself was trying to prove himself to his sister, as he had been for a long time, but exposure to the Black Heart as well as crash landing after the failed assault on the Dreadnaught by the Awoken Corsairs made him mad; he was killing Awoken on the Reef, so he was imprisoned in the Prison of Elders

Also in that time, he had come upon a dying Eliksni and wished that they would stop suffering so; Riven granted this desire by mixing Darkness into Ether to make Dark Ether, and the Eliksni Uldren was specifically caring to became Fikrul, the Fanatic

Fikrul is so far the only really sentient/sapient Scorn, able to produce Dark Ether to make others (I think? Don’t quote me on that specifically)

[prime rover]

was simply knowing an ahamkara lived enough of a reason to kill her or did her being taken + caydes death make her need to be killed

[chrome fog]

He also cannot die, he always come back

[prime rover]

because she doesn't seem to be like crazy or whatever from being taken

[chrome fog]

We only cared about her being the reason Cayde died (explicitly; those other reasons can factor in, but that’s to each their own)

[prime rover]

fair enough

[chrome fog]

Yes, she still remained of her own will even as being Taken

Being Taken would shape your will, your form into a perfected version of yourself to suit whoever is Taking you needs you to be

To be a Perfect Blade

[prime rover]

and oryx wanted her to continue as more or less normal to do the wish bit?

wouldn't forcing the will of an ahamkara be much better though

[chrome fog]

Idk what Oryx wanted, I just know he wrecked Mara’s stuff after learning it was bits of his Throneworld that Mara had made her own Throne out of

[prime rover]

can't imagine the desire of hive gods wouldn't be enough on their own, even if it's as big of a wish as the dreaming city curse

[chrome fog]

Again, idk but also the Ahamkara are very powerful paracausal beings, they can make impossible things possible to a greater extent than has ever been seen; at most, she went along with being Taken because it was interesting

[prime rover]

also why wasn't the wish to make the dreaming city completely taken instead of 3 weeks of fluctuating corruption

[chrome fog]

Oryx could’ve done that himself

What would he need Riven for if that was his goal, when he can just Take everyone in there himself as he has that power

[prime rover]

so the curse was savathuns and it was fluctuating literally just to fuel the whateveritwas

imbaru engine

[chrome fog]

Not… really

The Curse was Savathun’s doing, but idr the exact purpose for it other than just taking a big portion of Mara’s people hostage to an inescapable timeloop

Quria - whom Savathun had ownership over by that time, not only because Oryx gifted the Vex mind to her but also she learned the Power to Take as well - and Savathun’s children maintained the Curse

[prime rover]

wait so the dreaming city isn't the awokens pseudo homeworld?

or were the majority just not home when the whole takening happened

[jagged badge]

They had varying cities and fortresses hidden in the Reef but the Dreaming City was the main one I believe

[prime rover]

or are most of them actually stuck in dreaming city which is why mara has been in the background for what feels like most of d2s lifetime

[jagged badge]

It was evacuated during the Taken War, before Oryx’s influence got there

[prime rover]

since she doesn't have much support out there

oh

now that I think about it

hive gods don't start back at 0 after getting killed by another hive via sword logic right

tithes make a hive a hive god, and eris took all of savathuns

did it all just go back to sav when eris rejected it

[ember storm]

it's what he wanted

riven tricked him into making a wish

so she wasn't properly taken

[prime rover]

so unspoken desires can still be used as fuel for the magic machine? and she just interpreted it in a favorable way?

or did she just finesse him during negotiations

[chrome fog]

It was meant to be their new capital after they had left the Distributary

[prime rover]

new keyword detected

what that

[chrome fog]

Mmmmm

So, you know the Collapse right?

[prime rover]

uhh

something something golden age

[chrome fog]

It’s when shit hit the fan for Humanity, the Collapse of the Golden Age

All the other alien races appeared within the Sol System, and we were not prepared at all

This was also during some of our early colonization efforts beyond our planet, we had establishments on the Moon, Venus, Europa, and Mars

One of the colonization ships, Exodus Green I think? They were outside of the Heliopause (the outer-rim of the Sol System) and about to get their shit rocked by the encroaching Pyramid ships

The Traveler blasted a Light beam to save them, but the clash of Light and Darkness created a singularity, basically a pocket-universe

I hate autocorrect

Yadda yadda yadda, Mara emerged first and basically formed the universe in the Distributary, also helping establish Awoken society in there, and puppetting stuff to curate its development. She then lead an exodus back into the original universe, out of the Distributary, though a significant portion of Awoken society stayed behind

They occupied the Reef - in the asteroid belt - and Mara set out to building the Dreaming City

[prime rover]

what was all that about mara taking chunks out of some hive gods throne world again

how did she even manage to do that

how is doing so even possible

isn't a throne world literally like a pocket dimension

[chrome fog]

Their civilization has also developed proficiency with Paracausality to an extent, not to the potency of Guardians but in much more measured and complex ways

Mara is the most powerful of the Awoken

Even having shattered something with as much paracausal power as a Pyramid

When it comes to the Ascendent Plane, she and her techeuns are much more knowledgeable and capable than us of shifting it

And Throneworlds occupy the Ascendent Plane

[trim grotto]

Bubbles of stability in a caustic realm

[prime rover]

wait so the exodus ships had a whole civilization on it and not just like a normal ship of mostly crewmembers

[chrome fog]

Not a whole civilization, just enough people in it to establish colonies

[trim grotto]

Thousands of colonists, generally speaking. They were colony ships.

[jagged badge]

You’re a bubble of stability in a caustic realm

[trim grotto]

You're damn right

[prime rover]

oh

[jagged badge]

What does caustic mean

[chrome fog]

I probably should have specified, the Distributary had millennia pass, time moved faster there than in the main universe

[chrome fog]

Shit don’t wanna be awright

[trim grotto]

Sort of like acidic. It burns and corrodes flesh.

[prime rover]

did they have a failsafe like they did on exodus blue that was also awoken-ified or is that not relevant or possible here

[chrome fog]

Molecules wanna separate and explode, though as a general adjective it can apply to stuff that basically doesn’t want to remain consistent to itself, that wants to be chaotic

[chrome fog]

The Awoken were a product of the Light and Darkness clashing, not of humanity

[trim grotto]

There very well may have been a ship AI but it was never relevant to the story - unless you're looking too closely at Medusa.

[prime rover]

at the who what

[trim grotto]

Savathûn pretending to be an AI. Long story.

In the same lore book, she also pretended to be Eris, Dul Incaru, Eris again, and herself.

And Quria. And technically Rahool.

[chrome fog]

Marasenna?

[trim grotto]

Truth To Power.

[prime rover]

does sav turn herself into whoever she's impersonating or does she make like a puppet lookalike

[chrome fog]

Oh, just her saying stuff like “ooooo I know the AI from Exodus Green here’s a bunch a words”

[trim grotto]

Oh, these were all messages. Data.

[prime rover]

so essentially does beating the shit out of someone when she's impersonating that someone actually hurt her

[trim grotto]

No physical presence

[prime rover]

or well, I guess specifically osiris in this case

[trim grotto]

Specifically Osiris. She hadn't taken someone's place before then. She had, however, snuck into the City.

[chrome fog]

She wrote a bunch of falsehoods and half-truths to confuse us

To demonstrate Cunning

[trim grotto]

To demonstrate being a #@$!&

[chrome fog]

Because that is her nature as a Hive God, like Oryx’s is to explore and discover and Xivu’s is to wage war and strife, hers is to be cunning, both in learning and in deceiving

[prime rover]

did osiris actually show up in person in front of other people in the lore or ingame when he was still sav-but-secret though

[chrome fog]

Sav possessed him, to put it simply

[prime rover]

I think mael said this was the first time but like

oh it was just a possession

[chrome fog]

Essentially

[prime rover]

not like a complete replacement/impersonation deal

[chrome fog]

The details might be a bit more complex but she basically inhabited his body

Osiris himself was cognizant of what she was doing in his body, I think - dialogue this season between him and Crow demonstrate that - but he had no control over his body’s actions

[prime rover]

how did that happen

it was some time after sagira died, that much was clear I think

but do we know when or how it happened

[trim grotto]

Actually, it was like, minutes after that.

Xivu and the High Celebrant retreated, Osiris lay on the floor, Sav just kinda slithered over

Directly followed by us meeting him in the Hellmouth on the Moon

That is to say, Savasiris

[main parcel]

Is there much lore about the Exo? Like, how many Exo are there in the D2 universe? How long do Exo normally "live" between episodes of DER and reboots? Are more Exo being made?

[trim grotto]

Yes
We don't know
Depends on the individual Exo
No

[main parcel]

Wow, that was quick replies to all my questions. I'm impressed.

[trim grotto]

I'd elaborate further but I'm finishing my work break and mobile is slow to type on, haha

[main parcel]

No worries. Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'm fascinated by AI and AI-human hybrids in fantasy, sci-fi and other forms of literature, so of course I had to make my main D2 character an Exo.

D2 seems to have a lot of AI-related beings (frames, Exo, Vex, the Servitors, and ofc, the Great Machine itself.

[chrome fog]

Exos are not AI, per se

They are more-so full body prosthetics for the full human body

Their consciousnesses are mind-scans - copies of a human mind - uploaded into a frame

[main parcel]

Yeah, I know, though their brain is - as I understand it - more of a neutral network with a human consciousness upload rather than the original organic brain, which is why I said "AI-human hybrid"

[chrome fog]

That would imply their mind is partially supported by AI, but it’s a copy of their mind

There are non-lethal methods to getting a scan of someone’s mind, but Clovis opted for the fully lethal method out of fidelity for the copies mind

[main parcel]

This could lead to a whole philosophical discussion, eg., is a copy of a person the same person. If you copied a human mind into an Exo frame, but didn't then kill the original host body, would they be two different beings, and if so, is not the Exo not the same person as the original, but rather an (AI) copy?

[chrome fog]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[main parcel]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[chrome fog]

Though Destiny does differentiate between AI and Exo consciousnesses, with AI being specifically built as a program into lower-sapience

Lots, lots of semantics

[main parcel]

To be honest, I was disappointed to read on Destiny wiki that the frames around the city are "non-sentient". I prefer to think of them as sentient AIs.

[chrome fog]

There does seem to be a scale though, Rasputin being the closest to a truly sentient AI with his submind - the one occupying the Sidhartha Golem - being rezzed as Felwinter

Our sentient weapons also supposedly talk to each other

DARCI seems to talk with some of the ones with AI, and Xenophage has a Lightbearer turned into a bug

[prime rover]

the parasite bug is still alive and squirming right

[chrome fog]

Idr which lore tab talks about that

[chrome fog]

He’s fully sentient yes, he makes all the bullets burn

[prime rover]

what was the lore tab where asher mir or someone else loses their shit because some titan brought them a perfect paradox with random rolls

[trim grotto]

I would recommend against using the wiki, by the way.
As for the Frames, they're not truly sentient AI, but they do work by Star Wars rules - the longer it is before they're reset (if they're reset), the more quirks they develop.

Like the whistling you may hear as you walk by

Or Arcite and Dahlia in their entirety

[trim grotto]

...DARCI and Xenophage, respectively
Silly Billy

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/vance-canary

Brother Vance

[trim grotto]

While some argue otherwise, yes, an Exo is by definition a copy. Your original body, mind, and consciousness perishes after the destructive scan concludes, and that scan is what is uploaded.
It is also not implausible (though it has not, to our knowledge, occurred) that the corpse may be resurrected via Ghost, leading to both beings living simultaneously in different bodies, both without their episodic memory.

There is also something to be said for the fact that Exo memory used to be backed up regularly in the Golden Age and that those backups could and were used if something happened to the Exo body.

This happened to Elsie during her rebellion on Clovis, and during the Vex-Exo War.

The Vexo War

[ember storm]

can't believe i missed mael rampaging through lorechat

this is what i get for showering at 3pm

[light stratus]

Can anyone become the taken

[ember storm]

depends

but generally yeah

[jagged badge]

Machines can’t be Taken

[ember storm]

machines aren't people hope this helps

[jagged badge]

Chimera only exist because of the fleshy bits on the Servitor

For example

[trim grotto]

The real question is where the flesh comes from

[jagged badge]

Interestingly though, the Wrathborn stuff does effect machines

[trim grotto]

It worms its way into their AI

[ember storm]

xivu also majored in programming

oryx didn't go to college

[trim grotto]

Alright I'm going again byyeee

[light stratus]

So even humans

[ember storm]

yes humans

the taken have just never gotten close enough to normal civilians to do so

but

are you familiar with sloane?

[jagged badge]

From Fortnite?

[ember storm]

from old school runescape actually

[trim grotto]

See: The Corrupted Strike and Last Wish

And Season of the Lost for that matter

[chrome fog]

https://tenor.com/view/crying-emoji-dies-gif-21956120

[chrome fog]

Yes; sometimes we forget but even the Awoken are still human, just with some weirdness mixed in

[outer dragon]

Some possible Witness fuckery

[sinful pivot]

Looks like the top of the veil

Would make sense no?

[outer dragon]

No

[chrome fog]

It may have factored into the Veil’s design, but also that’s a fairly simply kaleidoscope design

[dim minnow]

so anyone gonna mention that we finally get to hear from Trihn and Gaelin-4 again after a while?

last time we saw them was Chosen

and it looks like Trihn was corrupted by the cryptolith she meditated in front of

[outer dragon]

Trihn, the Awoken that injested Ether?

[dim minnow]

I think

she was an unclaimed Lightbearer who was forced to fight as a gladiator by one of Spider's Associates

[trim grotto]

Correct on both counts

Except she injected Ether

[outer dragon]

Well i was tip toeing around the whole injecting thing

[trim grotto]

She'll be right

[dim minnow]

so how long until Trihn and Gaelin-4 meet Siegfried and start a fireteam?

[trim grotto]

Trihn the Stasis user and Siegfried the Praxic

Not sure about that one

[dim minnow]

Siegfried has been shown to be willing to put personal biases aside in favor of orders

[trim grotto]

He was also shown to try and beat the hell out of Crow because he was a private person

[dim minnow]

a suspicious figure during a Vanguard operation

[trim grotto]

Who saved Siegfried's life

[ember storm]

I mean it’s more justified than the other reasons people beat up crow

[ocean oriole]

Just realized in the coil crow says that Petra already shot him once so does that mean we didn't kill him at the end of forsaken or is there another time

[gentle geyser]

[dim minnow]

it's believed that we and Petra shot him at the same time

though I only heard the Vestian go off

[ocean oriole]

Wombo combo lol

[dim minnow]

apparently you're supposed to hear both Ace and Vestian fire at the same time at the end of Forsaken, but I only heard Vestian

[ember storm]

that's because it's not just both sound effects layered atop one another

it's a sound specifically engineered using both so it's easily discernable as one or the other

"You already shot me once" can easily just be referring to petra, the guardian, or both, seeing as she was the one urging us on to do it in the first place and crow knows we're listening to coms

ultimately it doesn't really matter since it's meant to be one of few headcanon opportunities

[trim grotto]

For example, I headcanon we both did it.

[ember storm]

i headcanon that uldren actually slipped and fell on a convenient banana peel and accidentally knocked both guns out of everyone's hands, getting shot in the process

[trim grotto]

He was lying down

[ember storm]

we let him stand up and then he tripped

trust

[dim minnow]

it is worth noting that our Ghost was trying to talk us out of it

[trim grotto]

It was Ace of Spades actually

[dim minnow]

I also wonder of the Ace was even still in firing condition

since the gun got busted by the time we brought it to Banshee post-Forsaken

[ember storm]

being roughed up just means it's not fit for fighting on the frontlines as a guardian, which is what banshee repaired it for

it was still perfectly capabale of planting one bullet in bare humanoid skin

[trim grotto]

It's like finding a bomb years after a war

Still works, even if it's rusted over

[ember storm]

or the fabled gameboy

[dim minnow]

ok, but if yoor bomb gets knocked out of your hand by an eldritch horror and slams into the ground, would it still work?

[hollow zealot]

quotes game numba two

[trim grotto]

Depends on the bomb

[hollow zealot]

who said this quote
"I too will experiment with a wound."

[gentle geyser]

Pov: you haven’t watched the demolition rance video on the highpoint pistol

[hollow zealot]

mirror mirror on the wall

whos the smartest of them all

[trim grotto]

That sounds like...
||Crota fucking up and letting the Vex into Oryx's Throne||

[hollow zealot]

did you search it up

[trim grotto]

BoS has famous quotes
I've read it many times

[hollow zealot]

😄

game number 2 gone now

not really a game im just bored

[dim minnow]

"Father is going to eat our souls"

"Speak the royal tongue or I will pin you up for Eir to eat"

they say that each DLC is based on a genre like WQ being Noir while LF is 90 scifi action

[ember storm]

oryx get your house in order

[dim minnow]

in that case, TTK was a comedy sitcom

[gentle geyser]

Id actually say that also applies to lightfall too

60% of lightfall is “we gotta harness the power of strand”

[hollow zealot]

whos said "Time to hunt us a Hive weapons master and put an end to whatever he's cookin' up."

[dim minnow]

Drifter

[hollow zealot]

hurray

[dim minnow]

I remember the Last Word quest

you know, the updated lore tab for Necrochasm references that hive weapons master

Enkarr

[hollow zealot]

i didnt know

but nice ig

"When the dreams begin, it is already too late."

[dim minnow]

hmmmm

either Europa, Draming City, or Nezarec related

[hollow zealot]

what if i told you it was none

of those

atleast from any characters

from those

[dim minnow]

well damn

ok, I don't remember what this one is from

[gentle geyser]

Europa my favorite character

[hollow zealot]

i simply pulled up a random gun

and pulled the description lmao

apparently the Emissary of the Nine said that

[dim minnow]

"Existence is the struggle to exist"

[hollow zealot]

oh god uh

sword logic related

wait

oryx

idk

[dim minnow]

Leviathan

[hollow zealot]

oh

[dim minnow]

from Books of Sorrow

though he does say this when referencing "the deep claim"

so the quote itself has some relation to sword logic

[hollow zealot]

sounds real awfully like sword logic to me lol

can i say that i hate sam

from the neomuna stuff

[quasi iron]

what are pikes

[empty fern]

Fallen post apocalyptic motorcycles

[quasi iron]

thx

why are pike

how are pike

PIKE

[empty fern]

No

[trim grotto]

You see them in game. They're like Sparrows but with guns.

Travel around the EDZ for a while, they'll show up eventually.

[empty fern]

Now the real question

[trim grotto]

Be quick, I start work in a minute

[empty fern]

Why the hell hasnt bungie given us any information on the terrain movers (like at fire base hades) (not interceptors)

[empty fern]

It’s almost 2am here tho, wtf

[trim grotto]

Second job of the day

[empty fern]

F

Gn then, I must sleep while you get tired

[frigid sparrow]

So stuff like the moving tank that caiatl had?

[umbral dagger]

how is it the black garden is the birthplace of the vex?

yet

in legend.. they are talked about being created in a totally different garden (which is a hypothetical grden btw)

i think the most obvious answer is both gardens are one and the same

my theory is the the witness race built them, or mybe even the light did, sort of like ghosts... to create the garden which acts as a simulation

and vex built it

and are it

and then escaped it

[blazing wasp]

Several theories, among others is that the black garden we see is a paracausal physical manifestation of the actual black garden

Not to mention that the source material were both using in question is... questionable

[umbral dagger]

i feel like the pale heart is a ripped off piece of the black garden

i think right here is when the flower game took place

when the veil and the trav were connected

and the game took place inside a simlution, for the witness group to test 'how' they could shape reailty

[blazing wasp]

You're relying too much on sources that are at the moment highly questionable in validity

Maybe it's all true maybe only something maybe the whole thing is bullshit

It's a neat theory, but we've got extremely little trustworthy to back it up

In time I don't doubt unveiling's validity be better shown to us

[umbral dagger]

of course.. its all we have to go on

and really im trying to focus on the more logic things we have actually seen and know

over myth

because myth is usually .. well rubbish

they even hint that the veil and traveller are the same, or were connected at one point

[blazing wasp]

I'm going to be a little harsh, but honest here, it's not logical

It feels very "tinfoil" theory, but
Those have been right before

So

Who knows

[umbral dagger]

if 1 + 1 looks like it equals 2, it probably does

if the vex came from a garden in myth, but in reailty its known the birthplace is the black garden.. then i dont see why it would be silly to assume its not the same place from myth

[empty fern]

?

[umbral dagger]

lets pretend both gardens are completely different, we have evidence the black garden exists

what evidence is there the other garden exists?

[fiery copper]

oh is it this conversation again?

[umbral dagger]

outside of myth

[fiery copper]

none

in fact it is the opposite

unveiling specifically says "there was no garden" because it's a metaphor, a story to have it make sense to our human brains that love stories

[umbral dagger]

even better

so logically what would the birthpplace of the vex really be?

im new to the lore

but it seems the black garden is the place

[empty fern]

A being willed in through a thought
(It’s not relevant but it sounds cool)

[fiery copper]

they are the pattern of victories in previous pseudo-realities that fell into our reality during the conflict between Gardener and Winnower

[umbral dagger]

what if that took place inside the garden?

[fiery copper]

it doesn't have to make complete sense, it is LITERALLY beyond our understanding and everything we know about it is infinitely simplified because our brains would crash like a computer that ran out of RAM

[fiery copper]

from ikora in the Undying trailer:
"the black garden is the birthplace of the vex. but it is not their beginning."

[empty fern]

(Same reason avengers puts quantum in front of tech )

[umbral dagger]

of course.. it cant be if they span time

[fiery copper]

which i interpret as "new vex are constructed in the black garden, but that's not where the first vex came from"

[fiery copper]

they dont

[umbral dagger]

they would have always been

[fiery copper]

outside of very specific situations

the vault of glass, which is an enclosed space specifically designed to fuck with time, and inside the infinite forest, where nothing is real anyways.

there is not a single time traveling vex outside of those areas.

also the corridors of time i guess? but that's contained WITHIN the infinite forest too, so

[empty fern]

Wait

So vex have the same transmat tech as us? And what about the portals skolas used in d1 to bring all of house of wolves from all time?

Also

Where does maps like convergence take place?

[fiery copper]

they do not have the same tech as us, no. theirs is better.

[empty fern]

Damnit

I would steal one but cayde lost an arm getting it

[jagged badge]

According to Unveiling, which we can’t necessarily take as fact

[fiery copper]

originally, inside the infinite forest.
in modern day, after mercury got yoinked (can't have SHIT in Sol) it's a simulation run by shaxx.
so it's a simulation of a simulation, being simulated on your irl electronic device.

[empty fern]

Too much inception

[fiery copper]

oh unveiling is the complete opposite of fact, which it admits itself.

[ember storm]

you got it wrong actually

[fiery copper]

is it reversed

[empty fern]

Nerd this user

[ember storm]

“We thought the Black Garden to be the birthplace”

[umbral dagger]

also.. its a bit suspect that the pale heart area looks like another garden

[fiery copper]

ah

[ember storm]

life is the question, the vex are the answer

[empty fern]

The traveler brings life so it’s not too surprising

[fiery copper]

yeah it is, unfortunately there isn't any sort of prior information about the traveler liking gardens

[umbral dagger]

but we know it makes them

[jagged badge]

Ackshually

[empty fern]

Double nerd both of them

[umbral dagger]

also, the pale heart place can seemingly be shaped by thought

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F4UJqy4XgAA_f-0.jpg

[fiery copper]

yeah it was a joke about multiple sources all referring to the traveler as The Gardener

[empty fern]

Lies, where is my purple ball bungie

[fiery copper]

1000% gonna be an easter egg

gives you an emblem

[empty fern]

It better be

[empty fern]

(The traveler ball emblem or purple ball emblem)

[fiery copper]

it's just a low quality jpeg of the purple ball tiled over and over

[jagged badge]

“We say that the Black Garden is the birthplace of the Vex, but it was not the beginning. It was the reason.”

There’s the actual quote

[fiery copper]

huh

[empty fern]

Reason?

Ikora wtf

[fiery copper]

that's actually making me question my entire argument

the "reason" for the vex existing is the prior flower games always ending in one singular final shape

[empty fern]

(Pin this for future theories users have)

[umbral dagger]

i think the vex were created to build it

[jagged badge]

“The life in the Garden called out a question. The Vex are the answer.”

[empty fern]

The remaining first vex made it to keep their pattern from going away (they are all dead now so only new vex)

[fiery copper]

(NOTE: there were no flower games, it's a metaphor inside a metaphor to describe pseudo-universes run by the Gardener and Winnower, who themselves are metaphors inside a metaphor)

[fiery copper]

the vex definitely built it themselves, read The Forsaken Prince.

[umbral dagger]

but there is not winnower right?

[jagged badge]

Unclear

[empty fern]

Uldren has vex lore?

[fiery copper]

yeah its kinda wild that the best Black Garden lore we've gotten is in Uldren's depression arc, but I love it

[umbral dagger]

thats just a concept the witness group desired

[jagged badge]

The Black Garden is half the reason Uldren was the way he was when we knew him

[empty fern]

Neat

I should probably go read that

[fiery copper]

the Witness has been referred to as The Winnower outside of Unveiling by Ahsa, the giant water worm that occasionally does a bit of trolling using Sloane

[jagged badge]

Correct. Whether this means the Veil is the Winnower or whether the Witness wants to become the Winnower itself is up for debate

[empty fern]

Oh speaking of lore

Does the app have the dungeon lore yet? The new one

[jagged badge]

No, it’s not out yet

[empty fern]

Damn

[fiery copper]

lately bungie has been marking new lorebooks as Classified in the API, which means it can't be datamined*

*you can, it's just a lot harder to do

so Ishtar won't have it until bungie lets them

[empty fern]

Damnit bungie, stop caring about your lore

[fiery copper]

same with all the other API lore hubs

[umbral dagger]

these words 'gardener' ect is not the real name, its just the witness groups interprettion

infact

that lone tells us

[empty fern]

Wait what?

[umbral dagger]

that these names are all made up

by those dudes

[jagged badge]

Sure, but it’s the earliest name we know it by

[umbral dagger]

so we can gather the flower game myth.. is largely going off off that

otherwise they would call it the great machine

or something

or the travller

so really we need to be focusing directly on the witness origins cutscene more as the go-to

it probs gives too much away

https://staticg.sportskeeda.com/editor/2023/09/a3704-16946997509412-1920.jpg

[empty fern]

Ghost

[umbral dagger]

or vex?

nah im kidding

[empty fern]

What

But yea

Ghosts and weird heads here and there

[fiery copper]

yeah but the made up name fits for the traveler, which literally
grows stuff
and turned the burning hellscape of mercury into, and i quote, "A Garden World."

[jagged badge]

[chrome fog]

It’s… it’s a simulation of their birthplace. A recreation they made using what little ascendent power that could whip up together to form a failed Veil replica. The Garden itself is not a part of the Black Garden

[umbral dagger]

fitting candidate for whoever made the black garden

[chrome fog]

The Sol Divisive, they made the Black Garden

[umbral dagger]

but the vex made it apparently

[empty fern]

So does that mean the hezen are older then the sol vex?

[umbral dagger]

i just see vex as gardeners... not 'the gardener'

[fiery copper]

read The Forsaken Prince

they aren't gardening anything

it's not plants

[chrome fog]

That could be one interpretation, as they would be culling and cultivating solely Vex life

[chrome fog]

Metaphor

[fiery copper]

no, i mean in the black garden

[chrome fog]

And simmer

[fiery copper]

?

here's the full book
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-the-forsaken-prince

and here's the two entries inside the garden, if you dont have time to read all 20
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/in-the-garden#book-the-forsaken-prince
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/on-the-hunt#book-the-forsaken-prince

[chrome fog]

It was a place for them to continue simulating tithe, which you could say was gardening ascendent power; though that’s not how it’s described in-universe, (this part’s for Viggy) whereas the Traveler has greater association with Gardening and the Gardener title, so we have more credence to attribute any real “Gardening”, metaphorical or literal, to her

[fiery copper]

ugh

how do you remove embeds

that takes up the entire screen

[chrome fog]

Greater and lesser sign on each side of the link

[fiery copper]

ahh ok

ty

[chrome fog]

<[link]>

[fiery copper]

ty

but without the []

[chrome fog]

Oh wait where is this quote from because yeah basically this is what the Black Garden is about