📚lore-discussion

[little gorge]

they give some dialogue that offers 0 lore

[slim elk]

Bungies past up several opportunities to reintroduce Hawthorne in significant fashion despite even her adoptive father (Devrim) having big role in Defiance

[little gorge]

"big role in defiance"

did he?

[slim elk]

Did you not see and hear him over comms and the weekly messages? 😝

[fiery copper]

He had a role

As big of a role as any secondary character has

I think we had enough characters tho

And I wouldn't swap out any of them

[little gorge]

other than amanda defiance wasn't that big on character moments tho

[fiery copper]

Crow got pvp'd by amanda

Mapped at 20m with chaperone

[chrome fog]

It’s not ending anytime soon, it’s continuing past Final Shape

And like. There’s been lore threads building behind the main narrative for possible lose threads to explore, as they’ve always done since Destiny launched

[chrome fog]

I mean at this point Destiny’s story is another serialization, like comics or recent film and tv shows

So like

It ends when it ends, whenever that is

They’ll probably know when they can’t continue the narrative and do a little thing like the Age of Triumph for D1, but that itself was influenced a bit by Activision clinging on to the franchise model

[smoky rose]

I do hope they do one of these after TFS

I mean that roadmap has a second major content drop soon after TFS

[slim elk]

Bungie is running out of announced content

After Final Shape we have zero details what Destiny will encompass

[green cobalt]

hopefully they'll announce that in the showcase later this month

[chrome fog]

Oooooooor. It's still half a year until Final Shape, so why the hell would they fully announce their plans for seasons after the FS main campaign as well as the years after?

Like we don't even get confirmation about seasons' themes or stories until at the very best a week in advance

Seriously, why would they reveal all of the content they have planned when part of the experience is drip feeding it to the player base with subtle hints interspersed in the lore and narrative?

[slim elk]

Failed to understand my point entirely I see...
We known Final Shape, Witch Queen, Lightfall were all coming years before hand

We have no idea what's planned after Final Shape at present

[chrome fog]

People are not realy man, this is a weird simulacra trying to pass off as a lore person

[slim elk]

Could be Destiny 3. Could be more dlc. We don't know

[chrome fog]

like

🤡

Bro really thinks retrospective means we knew all along what the story was gonna be

Anyways dipping cause Freak's a freak

[slim elk]

(The irony here is not even talking story content here.. talking IRL entries in the Destiny franchise)

[flint ridge]

i just..
why did i see people talking about futurama up there

[chrome fog]

Cause complaints about where the story's gonna go after Final Shape

Anyways toodles yall

[flint ridge]

that almost just doesnt explain it at all lol

eh chats getting off course, goodbye for another 3 months

[safe galleon]

to what extent are ghosts able to hold their own solo, without protection from a guardian? like, could they fight if they needed to

[empty fern]

Well, drifters ghost, somehow killed some raiders when drifter refused to cooperate

Ghost attacked by flinging himself into the raiders head (leaving the ghost shaped hole)

[safe galleon]

i see

[empty fern]

Oh yea back to this, anyone know what this is? It’s located in the hallway before crotas soul room

[ember storm]

it's just a rock

i'm pretty sure you asked this question before actually

[empty fern]

Yea but I said the wrong place (which related to the answer)

But like

Who cut this rock. And why is it on the moon

[fast tapir]

that's actually a scannable in d1 I believe?

[ember storm]

just a rock

[empty fern]

Hmmm

[empty fern]

Check, I am intrigued

[ember storm]

dreadnaught was the first location with scannables

[empty fern]

Cause it reminds me of the geodes some of the awoken have on display

[ember storm]

they didn't add ones to old patrol areas

[fast tapir]

I remember them explaining why it was cut

[empty fern]

Might be thinking of the dreaming city one?

[fast tapir]

unless that was an exact same type on the dreadnought

nah I was playing d1

[ember storm]

there's lots of things talking about the dreaming city amethysts

[fast tapir]

and found a rock just like that

[empty fern]

Neat

[ember storm]

the vanilla D1 locations don't have scannables

[fast tapir]

probably wasn't on the moon

[ember storm]

they introduced the mechanic in taken king

[fast tapir]

is fallen saber TTK?

I literally can't remember

[ember storm]

why do you ask

[fast tapir]

there do be a scannable there

in the bunker

[ember storm]

yes

[empty fern]

Remember that old warmind mission in d1? With the cabal, I think I remember scannable in there

Cabal or taken cabal I can’t remember

[ember storm]

pretty sure you're thinking about Io

D1 didn't have warmind stuff where the cabal were

or you're thinking of the mission where you're grabbing the rasputin cloaking tech

in which case yeah, it's part of taken king

mission instances aren't the same as patrol instances

especially not one with a unique place like a warmind bunker

[fast tapir]

yeah

the rock is scannable but only because it's a TTK mission I'm in

scannable nonetheless

[ember storm]

just looked it up, and yeah

it's just a rock

toland's journal wonders why it's there and then goes on a tangent about sword logic

classic toland

hate that guy

[fast tapir]

yep

toland moment

[ember storm]

i hope we get to bully him someday

[fast tapir]

okay time to use my 3oC because I'm already on d1

[ember storm]

every hive season is an opportunity for him to rear his ugly ball face around

[fast tapir]

i WILL get Gary :(

small arms on heroic strikes

W

[empty fern]

Watch toland just be a wizard with unique armor in a dungeon

Or atleast a fragment be a wizard

[low gyro]

Wait so Toland actually subscribed to sword logic?

[empty fern]

Probably

[smoky rose]

Yes, more or less

[ember storm]

he’s just a hive weeb

[safe galleon]

a very tasty looking rock

[safe galleon]

also, isn't he a spider now?

in the cartridge(?) of xenophage?

[ember storm]

more akin to a roach, and no, that’s Omar

[safe galleon]

ah, my bad

[ember storm]

he was just a normal hunter the hive experimented on

[safe galleon]

i see i see

[ember storm]

Toland is the one who misled Eris’ fireteam to the moon under the pretense he’d be their knowledgeable support

in reality all he wanted was to die to the deathsong so he could become immortal and study the ascendant plane’s secrets

condemning the only people who ever cared about him to horrible deaths

hence: nobody likes him

[safe galleon]

sorry, i'm not exactly following here

how exactly would dying make him immortal?

and also, why not just like, go by himself, if he wanted to die anyway?

[ember storm]

i mean it’s not exactly easy to get face to face with a deathsinger

if you don’t remember they’re the daughters of oryx

[safe galleon]

i guess. i assume he wasnt a guardian since he was apparently still had concerns over mortality(?)

[ember storm]

he needed fireteam members (sacrifices) to get close

[ember storm]

nope

he was a warlock

he just didn’t care about anything besides his own obsession over the sword logic and the ascendant plane

[safe galleon]

there's more than just the two we killed? or is this all taking place before kings fall?

[ember storm]

before

[safe galleon]

i see i see

[ember storm]

did you miss the part where I mentioned Eris

[safe galleon]

yeah my bad i'm bad with timelines @_@

[ember storm]

basic timeline is like this

guardians discover the hive on the moon, send a bunch of people in, they all die horribly

years later Eris and her friends try raiding the moon to kill crota

goes horribly, mainly because their “guide”, Toland, never wanted them to succeed in the first place and had his own agenda

Toland fucks around with the ascendant plane, meanwhile Eris is left to fend for herself with nothing but an ahamkara bone for years

eventually she makes it back to earth, helps us kill Crota, then oryx comes along, and she helps us kill him and the rest of his kids too

[empty fern]

How many deathsingers were there? I feel like there’s more than 2

[ember storm]

the one he met specifically was a daughter

they’re the deathsingers

like how Crota was the prince of the hive, yet others are just called princes

[safe galleon]

i was gonna say, arent there other hive things associated with song that kill people??? i think i remember in the mars bg theres a debuff you get near the start that mentions the 'song of war' or some crap i forget

[ember storm]

that’s the battlesong

because it’s her brand, it empowers Xivu’s forces and weakens you

[safe galleon]

icic

so like

does xivu just command all of the hive besides the lucent hive now? since oryx is dead, and savvy is obviously

Yknow

a lightbearer now

[dim minnow]

the Deathsong and Battlesong?

[safe galleon]

i was talking ab the battlesong yea

[trim grotto]

By and large, yes. That shift began happening ever since... roughly Season of Arrivals, actually, when Savathûn was branded as a heretic.

[grand jungle]

who is the "young wolf"?

[trim grotto]

We are.

[grand jungle]

Keep seeing stuff like this and 3rd pic is “young wolf• was confused XD

[dim minnow]

interesting matchup

but it is worth noting she is essentially immortal like us

[trim grotto]

Young Wolf is a title Lord Saladin gave us at the end of Rise of Iron.

[grand jungle]

ooh cool title ngl

[dim minnow]

unless we can kill her faster than she can react I think

[dim minnow]

is this an actual matchup you saw or was it just something you made up on the fly

[grand jungle]

tiktok

just saved the pics n sent em here

[dim minnow]

huh

well when you boil it down, Atom Eve is practically a Guardian ability-wise

as in both immortality and power over physics

[grand jungle]

I’ve never even heard of her before xd

[dim minnow]

she is from the Invincible comic series which was adapted into an Amozon Prime show not too long ago

the second season will be coming out sometime soon

she can basically manipulate matter at the subatomic level by sheer will

for instance, she can turn some food like chicken into a cheeseburger

[grand jungle]

oh we prob fcked

[dim minnow]

though she has a mental block which prevents her from manipulating living things

the only way to bypass this is through extreme emotional trauma (like near death experiences)

keep in mind our abilities are not too far off from hers

though granted her powers are more versatile

[mystic fern]

Bro why is savathun coming back

[dim minnow]

killing her in a way that prevents emotional trauma like maybe a bullet to the head could work I think

[trim grotto]

Did you finish the seasonal quest?

[mystic fern]

Into the depths?

I’m on like week 5 of that quest

[dim minnow]

though death from old age seems to allow her to revert to a younger age

[mystic fern]

So a bit more to go

[trim grotto]

Then keep going

[smoky rose]

Well then you don't know

[mystic fern]

Oh okay

[grand jungle]

so i guess just keep killing her?

[dim minnow]

I'm not sure if her pwers can save her from instant disintegration though

keep in mind her durablility is not high

at the lowest, same as a normal human, at the highest, probably a lot more similar to ours

I'm also not sure how paracausality would interact with her powers

or if her powers count as paracausal

[smoky rose]

Try and stop this golden gun

[dim minnow]

if Ecumene can be described as "masters over matter and physical law" yet still not be paracausal, then I wonder how she would be described

one of her greater assets in this fight would be her constructs though

pretty much makes her a Green Lantern

[worthy shell]

Is there a limit in lore on how many exotic armor pieces and guns a guardian an equip

🤔

[dim minnow]

given how much gameplay stuff is canon (random rolls and perks as example), I wouldn't be surprised if it is

[worthy shell]

I mean isn't Osiris in game using multiple exotics

He uses lunafactions and sunbracers iirc

[trim grotto]

No.

[worthy shell]

Oh damn

[empty fern]

There’s also no limit to what it does for the guardian (I hate you new light cutscene)

[modern holly]

Apparently every emote made in the tower is cannon. Even all the times we jump off the tower

[smoky rose]

Indeed

[deft flume]

I hear there's a Cabal reports of guardians dancing on the bodies of dead cabal x)

[modern holly]

"Blind Legion I Cohort/Century 3/Maniple 3
5 Squad [HEAVY INF]
TASK:

• defend Psion intelligence ops 071x146
  OUTCOME:
• overwhelmed by Guardian fireteam/Vex pressure. few survivors. survivors reported Guardians foraging for equipment, dancing, and performing acrobatics with light vehicles"

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-cabal-4

[deft flume]

Yeeee x) hehe

[modern holly]

interesting how cabal labels ghosts as "dead person"

[deft flume]

Oh?

Most be a translation thing :o

Cuz, well. ghost

[modern holly]

opposed to just, autonomous personal machine or something

good point

[trim grotto]

correct

[deft flume]

Am big brain c:

[modern holly]

I really like how this is the first time I've seen a game make every mechanic be cannon in the lore and player habits. Respawning, emoting, farming, killing ourselves

[deft flume]

Actually, how did the name ghost come to be? :o

[trim grotto]

Likely because it is a being that appears after a Guardians dies, brings them back to life, then vanishes again.

There's no specific origin, though.

[deft flume]

Ooo

Ig from the dark ages :o

[trim grotto]

Yes, it's very old.

[deft flume]

What's her name? Aido? Said people were super supersticious durring the dark ages

[modern holly]

Do we just call ours as ghost? Because everyone else's seems to have a name

[deft flume]

Our ghost prefers being called Ghost. yea

[modern holly]

So it's name is Ghost just like Osiriss is Sagira

[deft flume]

Yea

[modern holly]

I thought they were all universally known as ghosts

[deft flume]

Ig it's like the moon thing. moons and Moon. ghosts and Ghost

[modern holly]

and I don't remember where or if it's true but I read something about how they can also revive whoever they choose whenever they want

They're not actually bound to only being able to revive a specific person. Idk if it's true

Just like how they can simply refuse to revive their guardian, abandon them, etc

[deft flume]

Ghosts did revive the hive. and Fynch said "Peer pressure is one hell of a thing" when talking about it. So maybe possible. not sure

[modern holly]

If true, then that raises the obvious question couldn't they just have revived Cayde

Ghost specifics seemingly gets retconned to make it fit whatever the current plot demands. Like how originally only light draining weapons could kill ghosts

Then it was actually regular bullets could do it.

[deft flume]

There has never been a guardian who got double revived. So no idea
There was 1 who's ghost died and they kept their own connection to the light, being able to cast a golden gun. They even had a wandering ghost team up with em but it wasn't fully their ghost. they just travelled together.

And true there.
I hate that ghosts went from indestructible unless special bullet/light draining tech to just . . . frail machines being able to be crushed by hand u-u

[modern holly]

Yeah cus I questioned why would guardians summon their ghost at all then with enemies close by. Way too much of a risk

[deft flume]

Yee

T be fair, with cayde it was just him/sundance being ballsy. They ain¨t care

[trim grotto]

Eido? Misraaks's daughter?

[trim grotto]

They are.

[deft flume]

Yeeee. House light scribe. I forgot how to spell her name x)

[trim grotto]

Named after Sjur Eido, who Misraaks knew. Mara's partner, taken/killed/imprisoned by the Nine.

[deft flume]

That's what happened to herrr :o She's the Emisary now, right?

[trim grotto]

oh they were always fragile, or as fragile as metal and glass can be
it was only Forsaken that shook that up

[modern holly]

Or why don't Hive, Vex, etc just take guardian corpses with them and just wait until their ghosts manifests to revive them to kill the ghost, thus preventing that guardian from ever reviving again

[trim grotto]

No, that was Orin, a Titan.

[deft flume]

Oh o.o

[trim grotto]

Sometimes they do.

"We went down as a squad of nine"
Sound familiar?

Ever look at those crystals?

[modern holly]

That strike right?

[deft flume]

Ohh!!! Oml. I use the emblem all the time xD

Savathun's song

[trim grotto]

Each and every one of those crystals was full of Ghosts.

[deft flume]

Full of ghosts? I thought each crystal was 1 ghost/guardian

Man. I miss Savathun's song. was a fun strike

[trim grotto]

Far more than one

[deft flume]

Also wish I was more into the game back then x-x never got all the emblems

[deft flume]

Oh boy x-x
Do we know how many guardians there are in total? Like . . .is there 1000? or 1 000 000?

[modern holly]

I'm pretty convinced after TFS, the story will be about the Vex

[deft flume]

Probably. Since the explanation we got for Vex not being very active durring LF was that when there's 2 godly being fighting and all yo uwant is to be left at the end of the universe you'd just wait it out.
With the Witness gone Vex would be back to regular guardian fightin

[trim grotto]

Oh, well. I believe that in total over history it is roughly 35,000,000.
This does not count dead or inactive Guardians.

[deft flume]

:o

Many

[modern holly]

Maybe something along the lines of, they've been kinda holding back because they've been mostly observing the conflict between both forces they can't simulate/understand to see what happens, potentially learn something about what they are and then that's when they make a move

[trim grotto]

Wait, sorry. It does count dead and inactive Guardians. Sorry, I'm also doing Strikes.

[deft flume]

Xivu vs 35 million golden guns B) Who wins x) hehe

Aww

[modern holly]

I don't think it'll even damage her

Technically we couldn't even damage Oryx with our own Light attacks

[deft flume]

We were weak back then c:<
We stronggg

Back then the power cap was like 40. Ofc he was immune c:<

We got em now

[modern holly]

What we were shooting and damaging wasn't Oryx himself, but we were attacking to break the link between him and his worm

And when we do, what kills Oryx was his own worm

[deft flume]

Was it not oryx? I thought it very much was. Since he was in his throne world, that was the one way to kill him

[modern holly]

Yeah, that's how. That's the only way we were able to break his worms tithing system

Making is own worm consume him

[deft flume]

And then his worm went missing u-u

[modern holly]

I don't think they even take regular damage from bullets/light attacks

[little gorge]

that's a MASSIVE act of war so xivu

[ember storm]

xovu

[little gorge]

yeah xovu aroth

[trim grotto]

xib xib arraf

[little gorge]

ziboo raf

[ruby pivot]

i miss this too

i was a kinderguardian when they removed those

only got a few one

[deft flume]

Same u-u

[ruby pivot]

some emblem looks cool as well

[safe galleon]

i mean to be fair you could just put a stronger shell on them to rectify this iirc

however, putting them in cowboy hats is way funnier

[deft flume]

Encase the ghost in a depleted uranium sphere O.O

[safe galleon]

an experienced guardian always keeps a brick of lead in their ghost's hat

[ruby pivot]

wait someone just told me that the titan who died in lightfall was joxer(did i spell that right? or was it joxxer? )

[deft flume]

Yes. It was him

[ruby pivot]

daaaaaamn

rip for buddy joxer

thats the worst way to go

[deft flume]

And going to that portal really messed up his head x-x

[ruby pivot]

i didnt know much about going through the portal

did it induce madness to whoever goes through?

[deft flume]

When he aproached it he relived his entire past life, before he wasa guardian, and as he entered the portal he heard his dying scream from the future before he actually screamed and died.

[trim grotto]

well
in a way

[ruby pivot]

oof

i wonder how we will enter it?

[deft flume]

Not a clue

[ruby pivot]

might just be me but...we might use crow's ship?

the one traveler granted to him?

it did say the ship is a paracausal right?

[deft flume]

With darkness being the darkness, and strand suddently working just cuz we stopped trying to controll it I wouldn't be surprised if it was that.
You need to have the right frame of mind to enter

The traveller gave crow a ship? I haven't heard of this :o

[ember storm]

not sure what difference it would make

[ruby pivot]

i forgot what season was that, its the hawkmoon season

[ember storm]

guardians themselves are paracausal

it's just a witness brand "go away" portal

[trim grotto]

Radiant Accipiter. I do actually own that ship but you won't catch me flying into it.

But yes, it's made from the same material as the Traveler's shell.

[ruby pivot]

hmmm but the traveler did try to speak to crow...in a sense right? and the ship is the reward? so ima assume its a part of the traveler? idk

[ember storm]

plus if we've got an entire season dedicated to savathun helping us i dunno if a ship over half the playerbase doesn't own would be the solution

[ruby pivot]

oh wow

[ruby pivot]

ye

make sense

savathun with her voodoo magic

though it would be interesting if savathun's magic + the radiant accipiter

manage to breakthrough that one way portal

question, do we have some cursed items in d2?

other than the ahamkara stuffs

[ember storm]

cursed is a strong word

ahamkara bones aren't cursed

by their nature they just transcend death

[ruby pivot]

ahhh so are there any corrupting items in d2 then?

is thorn considered as a corrupting item?

[trim grotto]

The original was, yes.

Our current one - and any others floating around - are weaker, but controlled, replicas.

[ember storm]

well rezyl was basically already losing himself

[trim grotto]

Also true. But Thorn indisputably pushed him over the edge.

[ruby pivot]

oooh ours is just a mass produced but still has enough power

[trim grotto]

We made it ourselves, even. But, yes.

[ember storm]

it just does basic poison damage

it's not light draining, arguably it doesn't even use darkness

[ruby pivot]

which is unlike the original, it drains light and is lethal to guardians

[trim grotto]

I would argue that, given the process we went through to make it. But that's semantics, honestly.

[ember storm]

it was lethal to everything

[ruby pivot]

how about the vex mythoclast? or its just like the perfect paradox where its a paradoxical weapon?

[ruby pivot]

damn

[trim grotto]

It's somewhat akin to Perfect Paradox, but nobody really knows its true origin. No influence, though.

It's simply a mysterious, vaguely Vexy weapon.

"simply"

[ruby pivot]

interesting...wait isnt it was said that its true form will reveal someday?

or am i mixing things with other game?

[trim grotto]

I don't believe that is said, no.

Well, it kind of does.

The Mythoclast is a Vex instrument from some far-flung corner of time and space, mysteriously fit for Human hands. Its origins, mechanism of action, and ultimate purpose remain unknown. Perhaps it will reveal itself to you, in time...```

But it's referring to its origin

[ruby pivot]

hmm thats interesting

i hope they expand it after the light v dark saga

hopefully

[ember storm]

grimoire just does that a lot

i doubt we'll ever get an explanation

[ruby pivot]

:c well thats just sad

[trim grotto]

I doubt they will. Personally, I theorise Praedyth was involved.

Alternatively, Kabr, somehow.

[ember storm]

if they ever even bring praedyth back

[trim grotto]

Oh, he'll return. Even if only in lore.

[ruby pivot]

hmmm kabr is the VoG guy right?

i thought he died?

[trim grotto]

He became Vex. So basically, yeah.

[ruby pivot]

oh praedyth

nvm i thought u guys were talking about kabr's return

[ember storm]

took a big sippy from the oracle

[trim grotto]

They were both part of the VoG fireteam

[ruby pivot]

still tho, thats one bad way to go

[trim grotto]

Praedyth died/was lost to time/trapped, Kabr became Vex/died.

Pahanin survived... and was later killed by Dredgen Yor.

[ruby pivot]

kinda sad that you dont remember your fireteam after they disappeared

speaking of disappearing

[ember storm]

nobody cares about the third one

[ruby pivot]

is it like the gorgon killed guardians literally disappear?

i mean their data OUTSIDE the vault?

[ember storm]

You will meet the Templar in a place that is a time before or after stars. The stars will move around you and mark you and sing to you. They will decide if you are real.```

[ruby pivot]

lets say a guardian died in vault, does that also remove their data in lets say uhhh vanguard database?

oh

[ember storm]

just dying as in, get shot? no

you would have to specifically be wiped by the oracles

[ruby pivot]

getting gorgon deletus protocol

[ember storm]

gorgons are cringe

[ruby pivot]

ohhh thats interesting vault lore kinda confuses me thats why

but i do understand that they entered, someone got wiped from existence they were not sure if THAT guardian actually exists or their minds playing tricks on them

until they all died from insanity and existencial dread(?)

[low gyro]

I guess people would just behave like the guy never existed?

[trim grotto]

Pretty much.

Of course, there is one sure fire way to beat a Gorgon.

Simply beat it in a dance off. It's easy, they don't even have legs.

[ruby pivot]

bully maguire dance

[trim grotto]

it's a little me!

fun fact - the Throne World sky makes for a great green screen

[ruby pivot]

huh now that you say something about it

[halcyon aspen]

Soooo...Is Variks ever going to answer to the awoken for what he did in the prison of elders?

[worldly river]

Probably not

[halcyon aspen]

Fair enough.

[fiery copper]

He has to stay as a vendor on europa so LOL NO

[ember storm]

that is the actual canonical reason

so long as Europa needs a foothold, Variks' job is to maintain that, its the official agreement between the vanguard and the awoken

he's pretty shitty at it though, considering plunder

[velvet flax]

I still can't believe he wasn't even mentioned in Plunder

[ember storm]

variks is gone

all hail worm

[velvet flax]

worm

[slim elk]

Variks one job was to keep an eye on Salvation activites.. and we learned about them resurgent while doing a favor for Drifter

[green cobalt]

he's just a silly little guy 🤏

[tulip knoll]

Fuck variks

All my homies hate variks

[rich wyvern]

i finally am catching up with the season questline

so this finally confirms the witness is not the original darkness "being" who spoke in unveiling ? it's just a "manmade" creation?

[smoky rose]

Nope, they are the person who spoke in Unveiling

Bungie confirmed in an interview that Unveiling is basically the Witness presenting us with a bible type text

The original darkness being is the Veil but it is not the Winnower

[rich wyvern]

can u link it

[smoky rose]

Lemme go find it

[smoky rose]

https://www.pcgamer.com/bungie-weighs-in-on-the-current-argument-raging-through-the-destiny-2-lore-community-has-the-witness-been-retconned/

"Welcome to the problem that all Bible scholars have trying to figure out—what may or may not have happened and lining that up to actual historical events," says senior narrative designer Robert Brookes. "Unveiling is a parable. It is effectively a religious text. And how much of that is propaganda, how much of that is myth, how much of that is fact is deeply unclear in the nature of the text."

Brookes notes that, when Unveiling first dropped, players did take it as the literal gospel truth. "Players believed it to be 100% fact: there was a literal garden, there was a literal Gardener, there was a literal Winnower. And now it's starting to become clear that those may not actually be just concrete ideas, but metaphors or things that are far less concrete and clear. And as we get closer into The Final Shape, more answers on that will start coming up. And The Final Shape, of course, will have a lot of answers about the nature of those conflicts."

Brookes refused to offer any more hints on how this will all resolve. Except for this: "The contradictory nature has always kind of been intentional. Whatever the Witness says, maybe don't trust it."

[rich wyvern]

I see

So nobody actually was the narrator in Unveiling

Why do I feel like this is a retcon

[smoky rose]

Its not

This has been a raging debate since unveiling dropped, particularly intense since the witness was revealed

Bungie had this planned well in advance

[rich wyvern]

It just seemed like an extremely deliberate decision to have the voice in Unveiling be a very personal and distinct narrator

[smoky rose]

Correct, because the Witness is attempting to manipulate us to its side

[rich wyvern]

And now all of a sudden it's a parable, a figurative situation with no real character behind the voice

It just doesn't make sense in the long term; it feels like there was a writing staff change-up somewhere

[smoky rose]

Bungie doesn't write each story before the expansion

They have it planned years in advance

Look at shadowkeep thru beyond light

[rich wyvern]

game development is not that simple; yeah the concepts are planned years in advance but the process is subject to change due to constraints and extraneous factors such as time, deadlines, funding, staffing, etc

[smoky rose]

They do the salvation line
Then they give us a powerful weapon (divinity), which is also established in lore to be a bribe to convince guardians to it's side
Then they appeal to our humanity (unveiling)
Then they try and bribe us with power (beyond light)

[rich wyvern]

like we know from experience destiny has changed a lot due to irl circumstances

[smoky rose]

Like if you were looking at it critically and not taking it literally, this was obvious from the outset

[rich wyvern]

the whole activision thing for example

and there has been a lot of lead/creative turnover

[smoky rose]

Unveiling was and has always been propaganda

People buying into it just makes it more effective

[rich wyvern]

yes, but that's not what i meant

obviously the whole thing was a metaphor

its just that i think the narrator wasn't originally planned to just not exist

[smoky rose]

The narrator is the witness

[rich wyvern]

that's not exactly the case

the narrator talks in the first person

[smoky rose]

The Witness is made up of many people

It also literally says "I'll come over and hear it myself"

[rich wyvern]

whereas the witness didn't exist in the "time" described by the narrator

it came wayyy after

"eons" after

[smoky rose]

The land before time is a different can of worms

Reminder that time loops and alternate timelines are canon

[rich wyvern]

not only did the witness exist after time "started"
the civilization prospered for "eons" before the witness came into existence

so im just saying the narrator is not the witness

[smoky rose]

The narrator literally continues to try and convince us to join it and then says "you can give me your answer in person" and then in the LF reveal trailer the Witness tells Calus to let us come see it

[rich wyvern]

bungie has confirmed that unveiling was presented by the witness, perhaps even written by the witness, but that doesn't make the witness the narrator
The narrator is now confirmed to be a fictional character within the destiny universe
are you understanding me

[smoky rose]

The first person thing doesn't mean anything given that the Witness is a collective consciousness

[rich wyvern]

i'm not referring to the witness's pronouns here, forget about all that semantic junk

i'm talking about the story presented in unveiling

[smoky rose]

Are you familiar with the lore presented in other bungie games

[rich wyvern]

nobody actually experienced that story in any sense, metaphorically or otherwise

[rich wyvern]

i played halo combat evolved lol

thats it

[smoky rose]

Myth, Marathon etc

Marathon infinity has something silly like 7 different timelines (or more I can't remember off the top of my head)

Given Elsie's time loop is canon

It's possible that the witness and traveler are both party to the timeloop

There's also Myth to look at, the world goes through cycles of light and dark every 1000 years (obviously timescale is different in destiny 2)

I would not write the garden metaphor off as "never happened"

This is a bungie game

Alternatively

Here's a fun interpretation

The Flower Game is just the Witness and the Traveler's campaign across the stars

[rich wyvern]

🤔

[smoky rose]

Each game is a world/civilization the traveler blesses

The Witness winnows it to a disciple

[rich wyvern]

getting a little too esoteric for me with the time loop stuff, i doubt they are gonna pull that outside of elsie's personal story

[rich wyvern]

iunno, it's explicit that the flower game never physically hapepned in the world

[smoky rose]

But it is a metaphor

[smoky rose]

This is a pretty normal weekend at bungie

Hell Destiny, Marathon, and Bungie themselves all feature a callback to Gnop!

In their logo

[rich wyvern]

That reminds me isn’t bungie rebooting marathon as a battle royale

[smoky rose]

Not exactly a battle royale

[worldly river]

Extraction shooter

[smoky rose]

An extraction shooter

Tarkov for example

[rich wyvern]

What’s that

[smoky rose]

Or COD DMZ

[worldly river]

Hunt Showdown, Escape form Tarkov

[ember storm]

greet

[worldly river]

That kinda thing

[rich wyvern]

Can you explain it in one sentence like I’m five

[worldly river]

Get to objective, get back without getting shot by the enemy teams

[smoky rose]

Basically you (and/or anyone else) go in with weapons you own, if you die those weapons go away

[ember storm]

shoot shoot run

[smoky rose]

Its basically an open map

Everyone has missions to do

You can shoot people and take their shit

[rich wyvern]

That sounds super fun with bungie as the dev

[smoky rose]

Most games have an insurance mechanic where you can insure a gun and if you die and lose it you can get it back exactly as it was for either money or time

Anything you extract with you can store away and keep, if you bring it back in with you and die youll lose it though

[rich wyvern]

yay savathun season coming up

savathun's redesign and character development was like the best thing since mysterious logbook

[outer dragon]

Savathun season better have something to do with helping us get the BA forges back online damn it

[rich wyvern]

lmfao

didn't ada already like scrap those for parts

[outer dragon]

Nope, during the chaos of Arrivals they were ransacked by Eliksni and Vex
(Edit:removed a force of habit slur)

And then they decided to give her the lame job of being fashion central

The tech is still out there, just either incorporated into Vex stuff or scavenged for parts by the Eliksni

[rich wyvern]

WHAT SLUR?? FALLEN??

i didn't see the post before it was edited 😭

[tawdry mauve]

its not a slur

but its also not really the most flattering name

[outer dragon]

I see it as one

I hate using it

[tawdry mauve]

the eliksni dont

[smoky rose]

The fallen recognize it as a legit name

[tawdry mauve]

so who cares

[rich wyvern]

its a derogatory term

[smoky rose]

They are like

[tawdry mauve]

its not

[ember storm]

I don’t really care what I call the people actively trying to drive us to extinction

[smoky rose]

"I mean, its accurate"

[tawdry mauve]

they are litterally the fallen lmao

[rich wyvern]

slur would be like a remark about their arms

[tawdry mauve]

crabcakes

[ember storm]

didn’t drifter call eido crab cakes

[smoky rose]

Yes

[rich wyvern]

drifter is racist!!!!

[tawdry mauve]

xenophobic*

but yes

[ember storm]

he’s not racist he eats everything that moves

[smoky rose]

"No, not squids. Crabs, obviously! The perfect organism! The form toward which all life inevitably converges! Even on Nessus—"

"Those are not crabs. Where are you getting all this?"

"The VanNet. Look, the farther out from Earth we get, the more we'll see that crabs are everywhere. Look at the Eliksni!"

"The Eliksni don't have a common ancestor with anything on Earth, so I don't think our taxonomy really applies to the—"

"How big do you think an Eliksni can get? Do you think there's a giant one out there somewhere? …I'm asking Variks."

"Do NOT ask—hey, come back!"

I love the triton vice lore tab

[outer dragon]

Regardless, the BA tech is still out there and Bungie doesn't seem remember

[rich wyvern]

BA produced for us some of the best exotics. what else do you want

[outer dragon]

The legendary weapons

[rich wyvern]

didn't we get those

[outer dragon]

They got sunset

[tawdry mauve]

nah we had good exotics

[rich wyvern]

ohh

[tawdry mauve]

izanagis, lemonarque

[outer dragon]

I want refreshed rolls

[ember storm]

the toaster

[tawdry mauve]

jotunn

exactly

[ember storm]

call it toaster

[rich wyvern]

they are all still used, though izanagi could use a buff

[tawdry mauve]

no 💀

[smoky rose]

Izi is fine where it is

[rich wyvern]

i never see it anymore i want it to be the #1 meta weapon

[tawdry mauve]

izaganis is already strong enough

[outer dragon]

I want a Blast Furnace with Desparado damn it

[tawdry mauve]

how often are you doing raids?

[smoky rose]

Goated in damage rotations and quite OP in gambit

[ember storm]

what does it have to do with bringing an in universe organization back anyway

[rich wyvern]

well i used to do them often but not so much lately

[ember storm]

Ada makes clothes now

[tawdry mauve]

and youve never seen anyone run izi + rocket?

because its like the go to damage rotation

[rich wyvern]

i see gjally

[tawdry mauve]

[rich wyvern]

and div

[tawdry mauve]

explains enough

[outer dragon]

The lamest job ever

[smoky rose]

One Ghorn 1 tractor 2 izi apex swaps

Div is out of the meta rn for two reasons

[tawdry mauve]

not even tractor

just tether

sometimes

with another apex/cc swap

[ember storm]

says who

[smoky rose]

Tether is for dungeons and Sanctified mind

[rich wyvern]

i forgot tractor existed; i see that more than div

but i have not seen izi

[ember storm]

the homeless mute who just shoots smelly aliens all day?

[smoky rose]

Otherwise tractor is better

[tawdry mauve]

also a lot of the black armory weapons still have perfectly valid rolls

[rich wyvern]

the guardian?

no wait the guardian talks now

[tawdry mauve]

we always talked

since d1 y1

[rich wyvern]

i skipped d1

[ember storm]

we talk like 20% of the time

[tawdry mauve]

you skipped half the story

[rich wyvern]

the crappier part of the story

[tawdry mauve]

we had that one cringe moment in lightfall

[ember storm]

every single seasonal beat we’ve been dead silent aside from two times in hunt

[rich wyvern]

i didn't miss the best stuff: forsaken and witch queen

also i liked shadowkeep but im an eris enjoyer

[ember storm]

forsaken kinda stinky

[rich wyvern]

hahaha

nice bait

[ember storm]

it’s not

the campaign gameplay sucked

it had basically no narrative except for the literal beginning and end

tangled shore was just garbo

[outer dragon]

Not that can be farmed or used in endgame content

[rich wyvern]

the campaign was eh, i really cared more about the dreaming city content

[smoky rose]

It did a lot of good for general gameplay stuff but the campaign was hot ass

Carried by killing cayde

[tawdry mauve]

???

i didnt mean the sunset versions...

im talking about the rolls themselves

[outer dragon]

I just want some of the newer perks on them, like rewind rounds or Reconstruction on the sniper/shotgun
Desparado on Blast Furnace

Or other spicy new perks on Kindled Orchid

[rich wyvern]

kindled orchid was such a cute gun

[outer dragon]

Also, MOST IMPORTANTLY, the ability to farm them again

[rich wyvern]

well in all likelihood they will be crafted

[outer dragon]

Because right now the BA story line feels like blah since Ada seems to not really care about the tech and is more enthusiastic about being a loom

[rich wyvern]

ada should just go to mars and make it the dark black armory

the black darkness armory

give her a new emo outfit

[ember storm]

I don’t see the correlation

[outer dragon]

Mars needs a bonk

[rich wyvern]

the mars weapon crafting thing is a darkness-associated thing

[outer dragon]

The emo outfit makes no sense other than bait material

It would be interesting to see Ada take parts of the forge TO the relic

[slim elk]

Sadly Bungie seems to have forgotten the Mars Relics capacity besides being a gun roller

[dim minnow]

the Enclave Relic is heavily linked to Deepsight which isn't incredible relevant right now

maybe it will come into play next season

when Bitch Queen Savathun returns

[fringe gull]

what is vex and why are they here

[ember storm]

milk robots here to do what they’re good at

being milk robots

[dim minnow]

the Vex are robots who time travel
it is worth noting that they also are not robots and don't time travel

The Vex are, so far, simply curious. But Vex curiosity always leads to Vex transformation [...]

The Vex will not rest until every star has been crushed into a black hole and every newborn cosmos filled with more Vex. And in the unending array of their enslaved cosmos, they will simulate all possible pasts, and fill those with Vex, so that all things that have ever lived or might ever live will experience infestation and consumption and torment by the silica nightmare.

And in those devoured simulations, the simulated Vex will use our flesh as hosts for yet more nested universes full of yet more nested copies of us eternally tormented by yet more Vex.

An infinite regression of pain and madness inflicted upon every possible version of us in every possible world. Not because they hate us, or fear us, or want to punish us. But because they are indifferent and curious, and they will do every possible thing to us in every possible way.```

@fringe gull

[fringe gull]

why

[dim minnow]

because they seek to dominate the universe

to reduce it down to its Final Shape

[empty fern]

Damnit dovah

[fiery copper]

the vex are not robots

If you've been to nessus, you've seen the giant lakes of... dubious liquid. This is Radiolaria, but literally nobody calls it that. It's Vex Milk, nobody says Radiolaria ever unless you're explaining that we don't call it that.

Vex milk is a liquid that's high in silicon, and is home to a viral pattern. You know those optical illusions where you look at a black and white pattern and then you look at a wall and then the pattern is burned into your eyes? The vex are like if the black and white pattern burned itself into your eyes, then jumped to the wall when you looked at it, which then burned itself into the eyes of anyone who saw it. Except for the vex, it's transmitted mostly through touch.

The vex are not robots.

The vex are the pattern in the milk, and the milk pilots the robots like a mech suit.

[smoky rose]

The vex are literally amoeba

[empty fern]

@dim minnow DOVAH, I need that hive family tree image asap

[smoky rose]

What are you curious about also why dova

[dim minnow]

this one?

[empty fern]

No the bigger one

[empty fern]

The one you posted in media a while ago

No

Had more pictures

And names

And was kinda messy

[smoky rose]

Wasn't that mael

[empty fern]

Was it?

@trim grotto come here

[smoky rose]

Note both of these leave out scoroboth or whatever the fuck his name was

[dim minnow]

as for them not time traveling, they do not percieve time as we do, couple that with their uncanny simulation capabilities, can give off an illusion of them being able to travel through time

[empty fern]

Found it

#🏆destiny-media message

[smoky rose]

Also iirc most of that isn't actually related but is in the brood

[empty fern]

Also if any of you find the other family trees for hive

[smoky rose]

Like there's a difference between Kelgorath (Xivu's Horde) and Scoroboth (Xivu's son)

[empty fern]

Good enough

[smoky rose]

Here's the one I made

[empty fern]

Gimme images, makes it more immersive

[trim grotto]

Hello

What'd I miss

[smoky rose]

Hive family tree

[trim grotto]

Which one

[smoky rose]

They found where you posted it

[smoky rose]

^

[empty fern]

Kek

[wheat latch]

Omnigul, who dat

[real ingot]

Crota's wife

[wheat latch]

Very familiar name, just idk where we met them in d2

[real ingot]

I believe

D1 strike boss

[wheat latch]

Oh

[real ingot]

replaced by Navota

[ember storm]

she has a nightmare on the moon

[wheat latch]

Wym by replaced

[ember storm]

very famous singing voice

[real ingot]

the strike is the same but Navota

[ember storm]

you know how there's the reprised arms dealer

it's sort of like that

[wheat latch]

Gotcha

[ember storm]

navota is just an unrelated wizard that looks like omnigul and lives in the same place

[wheat latch]

So what is omnigul

Just a wizard?

[ember storm]

crota's wife

[wheat latch]

I mean like species or whatever

[real ingot]

Hive

she's a wizard

[ember storm]

the hive only have one species

cabal are the only race with more than one, and that's just with psions

[wheat latch]

I just didn't know if she was human, fallen, taken, ur mom, cabal, and so on yaknow

[ember storm]

i feel like crota's wife is pretty self explanatory

and we just got done talking about another wizard who has an identical model

[wheat latch]

Yeahhh, just wasn't 100% sure, woulda been interesting if she wasn't hive

[ember storm]

mindbender and the broodmother are the only time something like that has happened

and y'know

it was because of mind control

[wheat latch]

Oof

[ember storm]

it's fine

at least you're not the person who had to have it explained that fallen and scorn are related

[wise dove]

Could crota come back from the dead to replace oryx

[trim grotto]

Nope. His essence is gone.

[ember storm]

from an objective standpoint, Oryx is more alive than Crota at this point

[wheat latch]

This is cuz we killed him in his throne world right

[trim grotto]

Partially! His essence was later captured by Hive, but we kinda disrupted that too.

[wheat latch]

By "essence" does that mean like a sort of life force or soul

And ik the act of killing hive such as crota in their throne world is like fully killing them but does the idea of essence mean that could not be entirely true?

[ember storm]

they were basically collecting his soul juice for a funeral

we took some for ourselves to makeshift a security pass into the ascendant realm

every time we enter a rupture, it’s because it considers our essence to be that of Crota

[wheat latch]

Oh that's sick

So he was fully killed when we did the raid?

[ember storm]

yes

he was barely even alive as is

[wheat latch]

So what's the difference between crota's death and oryx's death, they both died in their throne worlds but oryx isn't as dead as crota?

[ember storm]

he was so low on power he was essentially just a skeleton blanketed in soulfire

[wheat latch]

That's rough

[ember storm]

oryx is a unique case because of his throne world being blended with normal space and also his corpse getting flash frozen in the vacuum of space

[wheat latch]

Ah I see

So that's what made the dungeon ritual possible?

[ember storm]

I mean it wasn’t really working

his body wasn’t physically dead so hive necromancy nor ghosts would make a difference

[wheat latch]

Wym by not physically dead, we done popped his taken bubble heart

[ember storm]

we took it and implanted it into touch of malice

also from an investigation, it was revealed the body still has constant cell division going on

from what I can gather it means his essence is just gone but his body won’t ever start rotting because it technically isn’t dead

[wheat latch]

So if we destroyed touch of malice would his body die?

[ember storm]

maybe?

his worm is also unaccounted for which isn’t something that should happen

[wheat latch]

Didn't he kill his worm or was that someone else

[ember storm]

he killed a worm god

that’s unrelated

[wheat latch]

Oh right

[ember storm]

every hive has the worm parasites in them

[wheat latch]

Sword logic feed worm hive live

[ember storm]

when the host dies, the worm should almost immediately after

[wheat latch]

Am I right on that?

What's the name of hive with enough power to have a throne world

[ember storm]

ascendant

most throne worlds are just like, the size of a closet

barely enough to prove you’re worthy enough

[wheat latch]

But a closet with infinite lives in it

[ember storm]

ones like Crota’s or Savathun’s are because they’re top of the pyramid scheme

oryx melded his into the Dreadnaught but that’s massive already

[wheat latch]

Yeah

Why didn't the hive ever just kill all of earth back when they were much stronger, at least to my understanding

[ember storm]

Crota’s hive were the ones here to do that first but he needed a big army to do it

so they were basically biding their time until we engaged first during the great disaster

despite killing literally everyone and kicking a lot of ass, Crota was super tired and went back to his throne world to recuperate

but then through a series of shenanigans we had no part in, he lost a major chunk of his tribute and couldn’t come back

[wheat latch]

Shouldn't he become stronger the more he kills?

[ember storm]

it also means his worm gets more and more hungry

what do you think is going to happen after killing thousands of guardians

your worm gets way too big for its britches

[wheat latch]

So he went to his throne world to lessen his worm's hunger?

[ember storm]

and to wait until his followers had procured enough to satiate it

doing nothing and sitting in your throne world is basically the hive version of paid vacation

[wheat latch]

XD

[ember storm]

we personally took the opportunity to go around killing his ranks while we had that opening

generals, phogoth, omnigul

[wheat latch]

Dude's email was full when he got back

[ember storm]

it got to the point his followers had to resort to try summoning him even while half starved

which still would’ve been way too much for us to deal with so we had to cut that short

disrupting that ritual weakened him even further, which is the only reason the raid happened

[wheat latch]

Skill issue

[ember storm]

from a story standpoint we shouldn’t have been able to do it at all

one of the campaign missions was destroying Crota’s sword, but the only thing that can kill him in the raid is said to be his own sword

[wheat latch]

U sure there isn't a different section of lore between those two times where he rebuilt it

Or maybe it just means the sword he is wielding

[ember storm]

it was specifically being kept under lockdown by the knights who made it for him, who we killed

[safe galleon]

actually, is there any particular practical reason that there are still units in almost every race that make use of primarily melee weapons, like the fallen with spears and the hive with swords? is it just a gameplay thing, or is there a lore explanation for it? because we see that there are divisions within these races that have ranged weapons or tactics that work just fine

[wheat latch]

Idk, marauders tear me a new one in gms more than dregs or vandals

Looking at you fallen saber gm

[wheat latch]

So what happens if a hive's worm is killed

[ember storm]

I mean the literal only way that’s going to happen is if the host dies too

[dawn escarp]

Without the hive dying?

[ember storm]

Savathun is the only instance of a worm being separated without a host

[dawn escarp]

It would wither and die

[wheat latch]

Like a bullet going through the hive at the wrong spot and it kills the worm

[ember storm]

guardians use melee weapons too

I don’t get the question

[ember storm]

the hive is going to die too?

it’s not like they have field medics there with anesthesia and bandages

if a bullet punches right through a hive the worm is the least of its worries

[wheat latch]

Lol, I was just curious if that was possible and if the hive would simply just die

[ember storm]

I mean they would just be like a krill then

[dawn escarp]

The worm and hive have a permanent symbiosis, if the worm dies it will starve. If the hive dies the worm will be without a host.

[ember storm]

bug person with zero special abilities

incredibly fragile

[wheat latch]

Is that what the 3 sisters were before their worms?

[dawn escarp]

Yes

[ember storm]

they were krill

weak and short lived

[safe galleon]

i mean yeah, but for players, we carry melee weapons and ranged weapons. and also, our swords and stuff are kinda like, wild space magic-y swords a lot of the time, while the swords that hive use are just kinda big slabs of (chitin??? rock???) and the fallen's spears and swords don't seem to have anything special about them that would make them practical over using, yknow, a Gun

[ember storm]

I mean that’s the point

wretches are lower than dregs

they’re not even privileged enough to have guns

[safe galleon]

i mean i guess that's fair

[ember storm]

hive weapons are all empowered with literal magic

[tawdry mauve]

arent wretches basically criminals used as cannon fodder or something like that

[ember storm]

it’s not just a big hunk of metal

[tawdry mauve]

like they are below dregs in every way

[wheat latch]

Why do they have more health than dregs

[ember storm]

I just said that yes

[ember storm]

look at them

they just have more armor

dregs have less armor because they actually get to have guns

[tawdry mauve]

also not much of a lore question but what is the smallest unit (dregs, thralls, etc.) that there are bosses of?

not counting shanks

[ember storm]

there are ultra shanks

[tawdry mauve]

not counting any shanks

[ember storm]

why

[tawdry mauve]

because i know about those

[dawn escarp]

There is Randal the Vandal

[wheat latch]

What abt Randal

Lmao

[tawdry mauve]

yeah he is a boss

[ember storm]

boss vandals aren’t anything special

[wheat latch]

I mean there's orange bar dregs

[dawn escarp]

Glorbo the Screeb

[tawdry mauve]

there are orange bar exploding thralls

they are just "revenant" or whatever

[ember storm]

Peekis the Disavowed is an actual boss

Weksis the Meek too

[safe galleon]

wait but how does this apply to captains? aren't they meant to be a higher rank than other fallen? but they just carry swords iirc

well okay i think the overload ones carry shock rifles (?)

[ember storm]

because captains are fucking massive and have four arms

[safe galleon]

yeah, exactly. that's four arms for four guns‼️

[tawdry mauve]

i think some regular ones also have guns

[dawn escarp]

They probably carry swords because they want to. At that point there is no rank restriction.

[tawdry mauve]

mithrax carries a gun

[ember storm]

fallen dont dual wield guns

[safe galleon]

they SHOULD. if i had four arms i would

[ember storm]

you just can’t

[safe galleon]

imagine 2 guns and 2 swords. imagine the possibilities

[dawn escarp]

Mithrax would probably listen to Sabaton tbh

[tawdry mauve]

yeah no they definetely use guns

[safe galleon]

you're crushing my dreams here

[ember storm]

the reason they don’t is because they have spiked gauntlets on the other hands, as shown above

[safe galleon]

yeah like i said, the overload ones and some captains carry the taser rifles

[ember storm]

and also they have multiple hands so they’re actually going to use multiple hands

you’re just dead in the water if you have no free hands as opposed to two extras

[safe galleon]

i'd take off the katar thingies and just have Swords, because it'd be cooler

[ember storm]

anyway, the wrathborn boss all the way back from hunt is also a dreg

not a captain

she just mutated to that size and grew an additional set of arms

[tawdry mauve]

also what happened to the house of kings

have seen them post arrivals?

[safe galleon]

also wait, i just realized, does eramis carry an actual in-game sword? i don't think mithrax's sword model belongs to any actual weapon but eramis's looks really familiar

[low gyro]

It looks like bequest the dsc sword iirc

[safe galleon]

from this season of plunder cutscene

[dawn escarp]

Looks like the bequest

[ember storm]

slaughtered and risen into the first army of scorn

[tawdry mauve]

oh damn

[safe galleon]

yeah it is, i checked. the weird thing just above the hilt matches

[tawdry mauve]

so ill assume most of the witness's scorn are from the fallen fallen houses?

[ember storm]

we haven’t seen the witness raising any scorn

they just broke off on their own

the only non-witness scorn are stuck in the dreaming city because of the curse loop

[tawdry mauve]

right

[ember storm]

maybe there’s different factions, maybe not

[dawn escarp]

I think the job was delegated to Rhulk

[tawdry mauve]

but where do the scorn come from

[ember storm]

all we know is Fikrul is mia

[tawdry mauve]

like at some point they have to be running out of dead fallen

[ember storm]

inject corpse with dark ether or have Fikrul revive them directly

[dawn escarp]

Dark Ether infused Eliksni

[tawdry mauve]

i know how they are created

[ember storm]

we’re not running out of live fallen to kill

[tawdry mauve]

i was specifically talking about the fallen that would become the scorn

are they just from anywhere?

[ember storm]

I would say it’s probably mainly consisting of salvation

[dawn escarp]

Literally any eliksni that have died

[tawdry mauve]

right but there has to be 1 major source

like waltz said

[ember storm]

no there doesn’t

[tawdry mauve]

salvation?

[ember storm]

if the corpse is intact you can just keep reviving it

[dawn escarp]

House of Salvation is one but it can be any

[tawdry mauve]

i was refering to the biggest one

[ember storm]

you know ravagers and abominations literally don’t even have heads

there isn’t one major source

[tawdry mauve]

there has to still be a "largest source"

[ember storm]

we’ve just been killing fallen across the system for centuries

[dawn escarp]

Eramis' second in command was made into a Scorn

[tawdry mauve]

i am aware of how the scorn work

[tawdry mauve]

yes i played seraph shield as well

i dont think you guys are quite understanding what im trying to say here

but alright

[ember storm]

he wasn’t the second in command

[tawdry mauve]

he as up there but not second

we killed the second in command during the post campaign quests

right

[ember storm]

also they’re talking about the battleground boss who was just a personal friend

[ember storm]

there was no second in command

it was a council

[tawdry mauve]

yes but who do we kill at the end of the post campaign quests

same place where eramis was frozen

[ember storm]

the dark priestess

[tawdry mauve]

yes and praksis was in seraph shield?

[ember storm]

he’s the technocrat

[tawdry mauve]

i know

im asking if he is the scorn boss in seraph shield

[ember storm]

yes

[safe galleon]

do they not? what are the masks for, then? just to cover the stumps?

[ember storm]

i mean yeah generally you want to at least stop all the body juices from spilling out

[safe galleon]

i mean i just kinda assumed if that was a problem they'd use bandages or cauterize it or something instead of, like, a steel lid with holes in it

[ember storm]

i honestly think bungie should've put like a big tumor growth on an abomination's chest for consistency, since you can't headshot ravagers

they're basically just bootleg ogres anyway, so copy the thing a few select ogres do and make their head invincible and another spot weak

[safe galleon]

so like

maybe dumb question

if abominations dont have heads

how do they aim at us

since they have that weird thunder hand attack

[ember storm]

how does any scorn do anything with their heads covered like that

[safe galleon]

i mean i assume for the ones that have melee attacks it'd just be "run in the direction the bullets and space magic noises are coming from"

easy enough probably

as for the rest idk

pretty impressive to be able to work a firearm pretty much blindfolded though

[tawdry mauve]

thats what the abominations do too

they just dont have noise

probably "feel"

you know when someone blows on you softly

[safe galleon]

i guess

no actually that's a bit weird

[tawdry mauve]

dark ether is magic

anything can work

and make sense

[safe galleon]

fair enough

[ember storm]

i would imagine being horribly mutated and covered in cysts makes you especially sensitive to things

[tawdry mauve]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZq6can_O14

only the first half is relevant

[slim elk]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_zXKHu7HXOY

Well well
One of the Ishtar vex AI copies was trawling around Neomunas files

MSund12

[grand jungle]

in lore what class would be the worst to piss off

[torpid flint]

Damn who would have thought

[slim elk]

And that's a Maya copy..
So might be a tease what we are actually doing next season?

Had Asher make a simulation of the Veil in vex network.. and last mention of MSund12 had Oxa being looked at..

[low gyro]

Isn't msund12 the same entity in insight terminus?

Something something oxa something something otzot..

[smoky rose]

Oxa/otzot are a different thing

Msund12 is a maya sundaresh clone that runs around in the vex network

OXA is the Odyle Xenotaph Archive which appears to be a digitalized version of Taox, the brood mother who betrayed the osmium krill

Otzot is a psion

[low gyro]

Hmm

[frigid sparrow]

"What's MSund12?"
Alright, bungie you cheeky fuckers, you got me that was a cute reference

[dim minnow]

next week we may figure out what the deal with Msund12 is

[slim elk]

Side note
Esi:The Veil is too great a power for humanity to wield responsibly

we use it to create paracausal VR chat instead

https://tenor.com/view/hypocrisy-meter-full-hypocrite-gif-9164321

[dim minnow]

well I don't think she had much to do with it

it wasn't until Bluejay came around when the Veil was being used in a more advanced way

[slim elk]

Yeah
Just don't know the solid order of cloudstriders. Esi had Stargazer around under her leadership

And Cloudark interface was based off Mayas work....

Bare mimimum means Esi lasted few decades in Neomuna

[worldly river]

Never thought I'd see the day when MSund12 got mentioned again

Given the parallels he himself draws, it might be interesting if Osiris were to interact with a Sundaresh copy, especially one from before she started losing it to obsession so Osiris might see an "uncorrupted" kindred spirit

[final geyser]

how rare is it for a guardian to be able to be able to wield multiple elements of light

afaik don't most lightbearers use one aspect of the light? the only time ive seen guardians use multiple is Zavala (void bubble in red war, and him boutta tclap caiatl in risen) and Ikora (nova bomb into chaos reach in wq)

[smoky rose]

There's not really any limitations, its just time and effort

Most athletes don't do iron mans or decathlons

[final geyser]

so it's just a thing of either raw talent or tons of dedication?

[smoky rose]

Dedication really

Like most athletes are dedicated to a single sport

[final geyser]

ok that makes sense

also guardians using darkness didn't really happen until beyond light eight

right

i know drifter's been using darkness for a long time but

[smoky rose]

Yes

Its happened in prior timelines

Also possible that it happened in our timeline a bit earlier

Namely the Kentarch 3

[final geyser]

i've heard of them before

who are they?

[smoky rose]

Exo titan and hunter and a warlock (iirc either human or awoken)

Said warlock was part of a banned cult similar to the FWC

They had visions of something in the black garden

[final geyser]

i always thought it was one exo named Kentarch-3

[smoky rose]

and Rekkana, Lisbon-13, and Yardarm-4 went into the garden

They ended up getting corrupted by the witness

Lisbon got Divinity

And all of them got powers

Lisbon killed both Rekkana and Yardarm and then escaped

Nowadays he's a Hidden agent

[final geyser]

wasn't Lisbon-13 corrupted

why would they now be a hidden agent?

[dim minnow]

Lisbon had his memories removed by the Witness

[final geyser]

ah