📚lore-discussion

[worldly river]

Okay but that doesn't change anything that May was obsessed with making this thing
She describes the technology as one of the people who made it, none of that changes because she doesn't want to make it

[round junco]

OH now i remember

[slim elk]

As said.. recall why she's pushing it and the last results of a species that interacted with it (Witness)

When your already saying to abandon morality.. whatever she's involved in has extremely negative connotation

And it seems no one stopped her... Cloudark exists and the Neomuna populace lays ignorant to even basic facts of the centerpiece of their civilization

I say... that's by design. An ignorant and complacent Population is quite easily lead to their doom...

[worldly river]

I mean yeah there's something bad about it sure but it's not a system meant to merge minds into a Witness-like being

[slim elk]

https://tenor.com/view/are-you-sure-john-cena-ru-sure-about-dat-gif-14258954

[worldly river]

Yes because she says it's a distributed network and that's not what that is

[slim elk]

Most obvious goal true.. but yeah.

Whatever she was after.. probably still ongoing

[worldly river]

Maybe

Though what I also wonder about is if this isn't calling back to Clovis

[green cobalt]

wait does clovis ever learn of Neomuna?

the europa AI rather

[worldly river]

Cuz remember Maya was whistleblowing Clovis about the Exos, which also did shit with human minds

And there was a lot said about Clovis's obsession on account of exposure to Clarity

And this feels directly reflective of that

[frigid sparrow]

if he ever did he probably wouldn't even believe it

[worldly river]

Maya was exposed to the Veil and has begun an obsession with experiments involving playing with the human mind

[frigid sparrow]

"these people made a highly advanced civilization on a planetoid that shouldn't even be sustainable? without MY help? impossible!"

[worldly river]

There's definitely another shoe to drop here about what is probably an overall goal but all the talk of morality could be sort of calling back to that and how she's going down the same path

A idea reinforced by Osiris seeing himself in Maya and having seen himself in Clovis in the same way back in Seraph

[slim elk]

Aye. Just my argument is that it's clear Maya "won" with the current state of Neomuna today. Cloudark has everything hardwired into it

Makes an interesting potential for human antagonists

A lesson in going too extreme in the modern era. A chance to stop

[round junco]

Did banshee ever go talk to the clovis ai

I rmb him saying something along the lines of doing so

[frigid sparrow]

clovis might've mentioned how it happened during seraph

[final geyser]

savathun is gonna be so sassy when she comes back

"savathun the witness got the veil and cut open the traveler"
"and who could've predicted that?"

[frigid sparrow]

"We tried to protect the veil and Osiris still didn't tell us about it after we failed"
"Osiris why the fuck didn't you tell them what the veil was?"

[final geyser]

tbf osiris didnt know what it was

osiris' memories of savathun were fractured at best

[worldly river]

Oh yeah for sure, makes me a little worried if something happened to Esi

[final geyser]

whats this about neomuna?

[slim elk]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zif5YuxGIIs

[safe galleon]

oh hey the thing i thought was gonna happen, happened

[slim elk]

Likely
Osrisis is even worried about the next log..
Maya voice on the logs maybe

[safe galleon]

i love being right. even though the purge got rid of the specific message where i said it

[slim elk]

Still..
Anyone up to purge Neomunas government?

[tacit summit]

Are the Cabal/Hive/Fallen all binary gender races?

[tawdry mauve]

not nescessarily

especially with the hive

[tacit summit]

Like they can self-replicate? Was just curious if there was a 3rd or anything

[bold star]

what the fuck just happened this week

is the season story over

[green cobalt]

yeah

[bold star]

dang it

[fresh zephyr]

Did ahamkaras go extinct

[loud tendon]

no there still riven

[real ingot]

Riven is dead

[ember storm]

she’s not looking too good

[tawdry mauve]

what a cutie

[vagrant bridge]

Crushing immaru:

[open saffron]

How can I best get my friend caught up in d2 lore, he’s never been one to care much

[chrome fog]

Ask what he’s interested in within the story

See if he has any questions about how things work in-universe

[chrome fog]

Yes, we made them all dead

[chrome fog]

There seems to be somewhat of a gender binary amongst the biological aliens we come across, though there’s enough differences where each fulfills different roles within their society, or moreso there are more roles each side can take as well as some roles that aren’t traditional to us humans

[tawdry mauve]

check pins

[chrome fog]

How is pins gonna help them get their friend into the lore

[tawdry mauve]

well we used to have pins here

that are gone now that im look at them

with resources for getting into lore

[fresh zephyr]

We turned xol into whisper, riven into 1k, and rhulk into what?

[tawdry mauve]

nothing

we just took his glaive

[trim grotto]

Xol turned himself into power that took the form of our demiurge.

We didn't really turn him into Whisper, per se.

[jolly topaz]

Heyo can someone who is familiar w/ the lore of season 21 DM me and give me a quick TL:DR of the conversation in the helm between several characters as part of step 38/39 of the seasonal quest? The audio fucked up so I saw a lot of gesturing and such but I don't know what the deal was and can't find much online.

or if spoilers are cool in here you could just spill it

[green cobalt]

spoiler just in case idk
||TL;DR: Saladin and Saint are not happy about us needing to get Immaru (savathun's ghost) to resurrect Savathun||

[jolly topaz]

ok that checks out, thanks!

[dim minnow]

anyone think that the final lore entry for this season shows what may be early signs of a split between Xivu Arath and the Witness?

[open saffron]

Dude I clicked the spoiler and got spoiled what the heck dude

[green cobalt]

Get owned

[real ingot]

perhaps it may be

They see the same goal is the issue

at least they do at the moment

[dim minnow]

Xivu Arath may be starting to realize that the Witness doesn't care about the Sword

[sour galleon]

can someone explain the finale to me I was confused

[trim grotto]

By what?

[chrome fog]

Also check DLV just in case

[trim grotto]

We stopped Xivu using a ritual to Take Ahsa (similar to what happened to Sloane)
Ahsa connected once more with Sloane and said that Savathun knows how to enter the portal on the Traveler

Many people are unhappy about this idea, but we're doing it anyway

Poor Saint and Osiris in particular

[sour galleon]

mostly how xivu still controlled sloane at the beginning

[worldly river]

I will say the "Ritual to Take Ahsa" thing felt kinda out of nowhere like
Yeah it's a big thing and would be bad but it didn't feel like there was buildup, it just happened and we had to stop it
Also did Ahsa get captured and THEN they did the ritual? If so why did she go in the first place
Was the ritual just really long range? Can you Take something from miles away?

[trim grotto]

Because Sloane is still partially Taken and Xivu has been in her head since day 1

[sour galleon]

oh wack

[worldly river]

Actually it would not surprise me if the idea was that Xivu tried to use Sloane as a conduit to Take Ahsa after they had a strong enough psychic connection, but if so I don't think that was explained at all

[slim mulch]

ahsa was at the ritual site, you can see her eye during the mission
so i dont think it was long range

[chrome fog]

Would like to note that the pillars are similar to ones we’ve seen before

[worldly river]

I didn't see that actually, but then that begs the first question- why did Ahsa go out there anyway?

If Xivu wasn't attempting to Take her at range prompting her to go to the site and stop it, then got captured, then why did she go?

[worldly river]

Well the idea there is that she left to try to disrupt the ritual and got captured

[green cobalt]

What if she just wanted to be silly and go frolicking about

[slim mulch]

yeah no clue on that

[worldly river]

Oh wait okay Saladin does explain it

Xivu targeted her with a ritual which "seems to have wounded" Ahsa, then Ahsa swam off to disrupt it
Then she presumably got captured and Xivu tried to Take her

[jolly topaz]

how do y'all think they're gonna handle zavala?

[slim mulch]

wdym

wait

sorry, me dumb

[worldly river]

I think it's likely that he already had at least some lines recorded for Final Shape

But personally if it wasn't already the plan I think they'll shuffle around events so Zavala gets retired (read: probably a heroic sacrifice) during the story

[smoky rose]

Not as far as we can tell

Other seasons maybe

Not Final Shape

[worldly river]

I mean there's no way FOR us to tell

But I think it's likely given the timeline for expansions they've described

[smoky rose]

one of the senior narrative designers said that this was the last line he recorded with Lance, said designer transferred to the expansion team after finishing Deep

[slim elk]

Zavala might simplely have been planned to be absent for next season. They did similar in the past

[worldly river]

I mean that doesn't really mean anything if line recording was done before Deep was finalized

[slim elk]

Plunder had no Ikora or Eris despite the whole Nezarec relic thing being right up their alley

[smoky rose]

It had some eris

Not major parts but voice lines and stuff

[worldly river]

We usually only get Zavala or Ikora, not both, during seasons and this is definitely already setup as an Ikora season

[smoky rose]

The radio message was the last thing he is aware of them recording with Lance, not that they record in chronological order but I doubt they had all the lines done for TFS back when they recorded something for this season

https://twitter.com/Sphynxian/status/1673806953452298240

Robert Brookes 💗💜💙 (@Sphynxian)

@Emerald_Alpha Possibly both? Unsure. But I'm pretty sure the session we recorded this radio was the last one with Lance. That said we don't record content in chronological order, so there may still be something? But what I said is what I said, it was the last lines I ever recorded with Lance.

Twitter · Jun 27, 2023, 9:34 PM

[slim elk]

Logically, i see Mara, Ikora, Saint, Eris and osrisis as the big players this time

Mara is gonna have words about Savathun being revived

[worldly river]

Honestly not sure about Mara, Saladin's lines might hint at Caitl being in there

[slim elk]

Savathun hoodwinked Mara back in Lost.. I doubt Mara will let that go unanswered

[worldly river]

Yeah but she might only get interactions in lore tabs or radio messages rather than the season proper

Hard to tell at this point

[slim elk]

just gotta keep Crow under lockdown

[worldly river]

Oh yeah Crow will definitely be in this season

[slim elk]

Still is a shame we have to deal with dead air for over a month

[worldly river]

He has some definite unresolved shit with her

I mean they can't really spread the story over a whole 3 months lol

[slim elk]

Aye, but this sort of cliffhanger has no justification lol
We have Savathuns corpse, we have entry into her throne world. Nothing stopping us dragging it back there and just sitting on it till Immaru shows

[worldly river]

I mean outside that being hostile territory and a horrible idea to do without like a small army or at least a good plan

[slim mulch]

we just got this info, its gonna be quite a while till ikora and eris are ready

[worldly river]

She can just teleport, she's done it before when we killed her in the WQ finale before the final boss fight island

[slim elk]

Drifter:I say our walking tank is insurance enough.

[slim mulch]

yk

[worldly river]

I mean
Again she did that to get away FROM US last time we fought

[slim mulch]

as soon as savvy is revived

she's totally gonna say "i told you so"

[worldly river]

Absolutely

Smug ass bitch

[slim mulch]

her ending it with "dont just say i didnt warn you"
fuckin

got that smug last word in and i love her for it

especially since she was right

[worldly river]

Personally I feel like Crow feels some... Not necessarily sympathy with Savathun but she still mentored him and helped him find a place in the Tower as Osiris
Maybe it was to sow discord but she still did that

[slim elk]

even gets more crazy when you remember we stopped oryx going Guardian

"You really cant stop screwing up"
-Savathun

[worldly river]

Also let's not forget that Crow mistakenly killed a Psion trying to stop us from torturing some Lucents and likely sees a kinship as having not long ago been a fresh resurrection
But yeah I think bird boy has some complex unresolved feelings he'll be sorting through

[fresh zephyr]

Dude, my friend who knows nothing about the lore is trying to lecture me on the lore

This is unbelievably frustrating

Apparently he thinks the ending of this week's quest is bad because ||apparently Savathun's only character trait is lying according to him||

[worldly river]

There were also some hints waaaaaay back in Splicer about Sav possibly feeling some sympathy towards humans so I wonder if, as someone who had to put aside his past self's evils, Crow might not see something in her the rest of us don't and urge her to take a step in a better direction

[fresh zephyr]

And he compared her to Marvel's Loki not knowing that ||he died helping the protagonists??||

[slim mulch]

idk if i fully trust savvy, but like
dunno how that makes this weeks quest bad

[fresh zephyr]

Idk

[worldly river]

Loki is literally more of a good guy than Sav is lmao

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah

Because apparently all she's capable of is stabbing us in the back or something

Idk.

[slim mulch]

thats kinda

[worldly river]

He is a good guy for about half of Ragnarok, he dies being a good guy in Infinity War, and he's more or less a good guy for half of the show named after him

[slim mulch]

weird

[fresh zephyr]

He hasn't read any of the lore tabs and doesn't watch anyone who shows that stuff, like Byf for example

[slim mulch]

well to each their own ig
i wouldnt pay much mind to it

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah he's just trying to lecture me on it so I'm frustrated

[worldly river]

Bro seems to mistake a "defining character trait" as "only character trait"

[slim mulch]

thats like saying xivu's only trait is making war

nothin else to her

nope

[fresh zephyr]

No pain about Oryx being dead or any hatred for Savathun, just war

I mean I kinda get it tho, Savathun doesn't really make much sense on the surface

But only on the surface

[slim mulch]

idk much about savathun tbh
but i know enough to not call her flat like that

she's got a fair bit of complexity to her

[fresh zephyr]

Yeah

[tacit nexus]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-meme-back-to-me-gif-14702837

savathun next season..probably

[empty fern]

Hive season back to back

[tacit nexus]

If Savathun allies herself to us that means only the vex are missing in our friend collection lmao

[empty fern]

Idk man, from what Zavala is planning

[tacit nexus]

I'm sure the season will focus on her deceiting us again and we doing a "How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man?" to her

[empty fern]

Maybe

[tacit nexus]

THen she'll help after a beat down

[empty fern]

But we’ll probably have a falesafe planned with Saint and eris

[tacit nexus]

True

she might as well comply which is unexpected...and sus, whatever she does is sus

[slim elk]

If Bungies is smart, we will have a ghost cage strapped to Immaru as part of the bargain

Savathun can get revived, but has to keep that on

[tacit nexus]

Whatever Eris comes up with Savathun will probably get out of it anyway

Gonna be an interesting season regardless, she'll have a talk with Osiris and Crow

[worldly river]

Also Scorn

Fikrul is still out there

Completely unaccounted for

We don't need even know where he falls relative to the Witness, though the fact he hasn't joined up indicates to me he could pop up as an enemy-of-my-enemy as well

[empty fern]

Still? Damn

Scorn have been rather quiet (only nod from them was a strike in wq)

[worldly river]

Even then they were being controlled by Rhulk

But it was mentioned that Fikrul escaped the Tangled Shore when Mara locked it down

[empty fern]

So he just wanders there? Making more scorn?

[worldly river]

We don't really know where he is or what he's doing
He could be making more more Scorn or laying low because the Witness might be able to take over any Scorn he makes

[real ingot]

Yeah Fikrul may not even show up until after this saga is over

[dim minnow]

make him the villain of the next one

[real ingot]

Fuck it

Legion of Minor Destiny Villains

Chuck them all into an activity PoE style

[dim minnow]

Sinister Six but Legend

[real ingot]

I'm trying to think who we throw in there

Yirix and Fikrul are definite

[dim minnow]

Clovis AI
Fikrul
Kelgorath (again)
Alak Hul the Lightblade
Yirix
and Taniks (again as well)

[real ingot]

I'd say Eramis is major at this point

[dim minnow]

or maybe Amtec if she still lives

unless she was the psion Zavala one-tapped in the Worthy intro cinematic

[dim minnow]

yeah, I'll try and think of someone else, was wanting a Fallen representative

[real ingot]

hmm

Taniks is probs dead at this point

Atraks-2 is unlikely

[dim minnow]

bring him back again, one last job

[real ingot]

Yeah Taniks is probs the best bet

[dim minnow]

I considered Spider, but he is still an "ally" at this point

[real ingot]

His body attached to a Spider tank

[chrome fog]

Gets Scorn’d in the intro to a Dungeon, then gets Taken at the end

[dim minnow]

it seems like we got ourselves a good line-up for a Destiny Sinister Six

on an unrelated note, there are still three main things we have yet to resolve for this season

1. The Pyramid door in the boss room of this week's mission
2. The Deep Dive statues (related to the exotic fish)
3. The final exotic weapon (which I think is a scout rifle due to the exotic ornament collections tab)

chances are all three are tied together

[worldly river]

Pyramid door
Nani?

[dim minnow]

yeah

[worldly river]

I didn't see a Pyramid door

[dim minnow]

in the boss room you can see a door that is Pyramid looking

[worldly river]

I also didn't see Ahsa apparently being somewhere in the mission so lol

Interesting

[dim minnow]

her eye was looking through a hole in the wall

[worldly river]

Yeah I'd bet money that's part of the Exotic quest

[dim minnow]

so next week we get the last statue item once we get the last exotic fish, then we go into a Deep Dive and interact with all three statues

which I think requires us to reach all three rooms, but I doubt pressure trials are required so it shouldn't be too hard

[worldly river]

If it is, fuck me lmao
Still haven't managed to clear Tier 7

[dim minnow]

oh, I forgot to listen to this week's Veil log, brb

[slim elk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zif5YuxGIIs&t=1s

[tacit nexus]

I keep forgetting Fikrul can't fking die

Maybe Crow can work his little magic

[lapis torrent]

is it fine to talk about the stuff that happened in the season finale?

[smoky rose]

Yes

[drifting pond]

although the finale wasnt too shocking if you kept up with the lore and what was building up with the story, which im sure is intentional
it was a great reveal that prompted good character growth and provided a look at where the story was going, very excited for next season 👍

[slim perch]

i swear i said to everyone i know

"we're probably gonna have to bring back savathun"

low and behold we're here

[chrome fog]

Well no shit, they built her up to be a compelling villain and personality and killed her after introducing her face to face for the first time

All with the hint of future interactions with her by keeping her ghost alive as well as the fact she’s potentially a repository of eons of knowledge

[rich veldt]

yeah im pretty sure most people had "bring savu back" on their y6 bingo cards

[trim grotto]

I wasn't sure when it'd happen but yeah, it was definitely going to happen

[sick yew]

I wish they hadn't

It would have been hilarious had she just stayed dead for the rest of the games runtime

[real ingot]

They revived her earlier than I thought they would

I assumed it’d be a last season of the year thing

[chrome fog]

It has been a year since her appearance

[dim minnow]

like how it's been a year between Savathun giving Osiris back to us and him being awoken from his coma

[rich veldt]

she returning quicker then Lramis tho

it does match up tho, both being 3rd season

[smoky rose]

I'm hoping the last week or two event this season is bringing her back

[dim minnow]

I figured that Xivu Arath would try to pull something towards the end

I was thinking that it would of ended poorly for either Sloane or Ahsa

but to my surprise we were actually able to get more info

that cutscene though, was not expecting to see Sloane curled up like that

really was an effective way to show how mentally shaken up she has been after everything

[rich veldt]

i was expecting a major death tbh

[sick yew]

Almost as if bungie won't just kill off a character each season just because

[smoky rose]

I was waiting to see Sloane decapitate zavala and us have to kill her

Not that Zavala would be permanently dead of course

[sick yew]

Sloane's ghost still works right?

[smoky rose]

I think so?

[sick yew]

Hm

[dim minnow]

her Ghost is still alive

and does not seem to be compromised

[sick yew]

So the Taken stuff is permanent?

[dim minnow]

so unless the Taken effect on her affects anything

[sick yew]

Like if she dies and gets resurrected she's still partly taken?

[dim minnow]

maybe

well probably yes

either that or the Taken effect prevents revive

Taken isn't even supposed to effect dead stuff

which is why Val Ca'uor being Taken doesn't make sense

only explanation is if some random Cabal took up his name and was Taken

similar situation to The Whisper too

three dead mfs back as Taken

at least with them Necromancy was possibly involved

[smoky rose]

Begs the question though

Do they actually have to be alive

[dim minnow]

yeah, they do

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/ghost-scan-requires-a-living-host

[smoky rose]

From a ghost log in D1

Wouldn’t be shocked if Ghost just didn’t know

Or Oryx didn’t have that level of taking

[ember storm]

Xivu has only been able to make taken using oryx’s sword

everything else is a hand me down from the witness or taken that already existed

[thorny sequoia]

we got a new file every week?

[dim minnow]

also curious about how Xivu communed with the Witness

she killed a Knight his a "vanta black blade" on the Dreadnaught

which allowed her to commune with it

[slim perch]

vanta black seems to imply

it’s so taken it’s nothing but taken

[dim minnow]

I want to see all this black stuff mentioned in relation to Xivu Arath

"black edge"
"black terrace"

[novel path]

is cayde 6 set to come back?

[trim grotto]

Going by the cutscene, sure. But we have no other information.

[rich veldt]

bracus zahn situation i guess? then bro got taken

[fresh zephyr]

Why does the 6 shot golden gun look like last word and the 3 shot golden gun looks like eyasluna?

[lost abyss]

For the Six-shooter I always assumed it's because of Shin's reputation with the Golden Gun, the other model I'm not sure about.

[peak coral]

eyas is one of the iconic hcs
hawk aus eyas literally all the same shit

[jolly vector]

golden gun with celestial nighthawk is another hc btw

first curse exotic from d1

the form of the gun is just because it was the certain guardian using it mainly

since all classes can enhanced solar power into any weapons

titan just choose 2 hammer type, and warlock use it on a sword

guardians are stupid as fuck why not just solar enhanced a rocket

[fresh zephyr]

Who was dredgen yor?

[ember storm]

creator of thorn

former guardian

homicidal maniac

[trim grotto]

Mass murderer of Guardians and Lightless alike

[ocean oriole]

Anyone wanna explain that cutscene that we got when the titan tried flying into the (veil?) In that cutscene it's the one where he's all twisted like what happened?

[warm cave]

So does the taken/hive want all of asha’s species dead?

[devout nimbus]

Ahsa is a proto-worm, which is the precursor to the modern hive worm

They would only want her dead because she's against them

[devout nimbus]

The traveller you mean?

And that was the portal thing

I don't think we know why it happened but I may be wrong

[safe galleon]

so if cayde named his chicken the colonel

does that mean that KFC is a thing in the destiny universe

or is naming a chicken the colonel entirely coincidental

[trim grotto]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/akashic-revelation

This has all of your answers

[trim grotto]

She's the only known one remaining of her kind. A proto-Worm. What the Worm Gods would have been without their corruption.

[dull condor]

Is there a lore reason as to why we keep dangerous objects like savathun and oryx's bodies in storage instead of destroying them? Is it that we can't? Wasn't that what happened with Siva in zero hour, someone broke into the vault storing it?

[devout nimbus]

If we destroy savu's body then immaru would be able to ressurect her

Ghosts can res from nothing if the body is fully destroyed but if there's something left then they need to use that

As for Oryx, I believe he's being studied

[dull condor]

That makes sense, thank you

[trim grotto]

Eramis did, actually. Stole the Outbreak Perfected, but we retrieved it.

As for Oryx

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/cloak-of-the-taken-king

[dull condor]

So that was eramis? I remember doing the mission back then and only knowing that a fallen stole it and we had to get it back, but I didn't know any names. I was new at the time

[trim grotto]

Yes, and the friendly Eliksni in the mission was Misraaks/Mithrax

They've been fueding for a while, haha

[dull condor]

I remember that, I love the history of Misraaks

[dull condor]

Is there anywhere that has a legend of who the code names are referring too? I'm assuming WQS is witch queen sav, TKO is oryx, but whos the others?

[meager coral]

WGX is war god Xivu I’m pretty sure based on the grieving comment

ERI probably eris

[trim grotto]

Some of these are new codes
ERI is Eris, FEN is Fenchurch, NEV is Neville, Fenchurch's Ghost, Cha is Chalco Yong, COS is Crown of Sorrow, WGX is War God Xivu... who else have I missed

NEV is unknown, but I'm assuming Neomuna Entity Veil

wait hang on i've turned myself around

i need to sleep, jesus

Ignore Neville
NEV would be referring to the Veil

[final stream]

i forget, how did we lose the black armory

[trim grotto]

When the Traveler began to reforge itself, as the Black Fleet closed in and forced us to evacuate multiple planets, we simply abandoned them in the chaos. After the planets were Taken and the Traveler pushed back the Fleet, they were gone. Stolen.

The Forges, I mean.

[dull condor]

One last thing, I'm assuming that Xivu mourning at oryx's is not a common behavior among hive? Sword logic and all that

[trim grotto]

It isn't uncommon. They loved each other, even though they killed one another. And an honourable death is respected. But Oryx lost to the epitome, the physical manifestation, of heresy.

[final stream]

and the one on nessus?

... and edz?

[ocean oriole]

Thx

[dull condor]

Heresy being us since we killed him?

[trim grotto]

The same
All Guardians returned to the City to watch the Traveler reform

[trim grotto]

Yes
Beings of rebirth who never earned their power, wielders of Light, creatures that defy the Logic, and never claimed his Throne

[dull condor]

Got it

[final stream]

what are ada and failsafe up to

[trim grotto]

Failsafe has been rotting on Nessus for years.

[slim elk]

Bungie has forgotten Failsafe..

[trim grotto]

Ada-1 is running the BA still, but working on her new threaders. She was working on project Stronghold for a while too.
Basically she's working and helping and living

[ember storm]

she's already been there for centuries

what's a few more years going to do

not enough to warrant her involvement

[green cobalt]

kind of a copium silly little question but, with rasputin self destructing and all and now us getting archie back, surely there's some submind of his still continuing on somewhere? or do we know if anything rasputin related is finito dead dead in lore

[tawdry mauve]

well subminds mean nothing really

even if we recovered a submind its still not rasputin

[green cobalt]

[ember storm]

the entire point of the subminds is that they're just their own little thing

they only mattered in seraph because rasputin's core was still intact and we were able to use subminds as little pieces to build him back up

[green cobalt]

fuuuuck

so he is just dead for good? it's joever

[ember storm]

this is like me taking years to process my dog dying when i was 6

[tawdry mauve]

like siva

cant wait for rasputin copers to be a thing in 2 years

[ember storm]

siva is literally just some thing

it can't be dead or alive

[tawdry mauve]

im saying

he is gone

from the story

like siva

[green cobalt]

i will cling to rasputin like the cayde copers clung to cayde for like 4 years 🫡

and now cayde is back i guess but not really

[ember storm]

rasputin isn't gone from the story he's literally just fucking dead

[outer dragon]

I want a season where find the forces that plundered the forge tech damn it

Give me a way to get refreshed BA weapons

[ember storm]

you know they'd make the seasonal weapons horribly medicore

i don't want that anymore

[tawdry mauve]

they reissue with the exact same stats 💀

what were they thinking with the reckoning weapons man

[ember storm]

no new perks or anything

[tawdry mauve]

i would love for the black armory weaopns to be back

with stats adjusted for inflation

and good perks

[ember storm]

enjoy your tatara gaze with rangefinder then

[tawdry mauve]

like imagine blast furnace with desperado + dragonfly

or hammerhead with overflow + rampage

fuck it give hammer head envious + ambitious or something crazy

[median prawn]

How long have the Hidden been a thing? Do we know?

[safe galleon]

wow sounds familiar

[raven glen]

Lore discussion is like the fanatic dead or something or we consider him now forgotten content lol no more skorn will fanatic maybe be diciple? How many disciples we even have lol. Cus ive been wondering we got a few missing villians that still alive but no word on them wheres spider? Where fanatic? Eramis?

[tawdry mauve]

fanatic is alive

eramis is still active

we saw her during defiance

spider is still in the eliksni district

living it up

we arent missing anyone really except fikrul

[slim elk]

Clovis is still a wildcard as well

[raven glen]

Just basically forgotten content now lmaooo for fanatic cus i did like the skorn villians. But arent skorn with the witness now unless fanatic lost his well leadership or group seperated different ways like cabal kinda side with us but some don’t same with eliksni others follow witness boi

[slim elk]

Got reason to give us grief after his plan in Seraph failed

[tawdry mauve]

the scorn are naturally aligned to the darkness

[raven glen]

No grief for clovis man 🙂 me happy he bye bye except for seraph rip

[tawdry mauve]

like sarumons orc army

[raven glen]

Makes sense now tho with the witness when the trailer he said we know pain know it makes sense with many being inside him they all feel pain. So basically hes a emotionl type god make a world with no chaos by basically destroying it first 😅

Oof how can i forgot mommy savithun ☝️🤓

I Didnt say anything

[tawdry mauve]

are you real

[warm berry]

I have a question
Lorewise Can a guardian from destiny 2 defeat a warframe
And can they do so gameplaywise as well

[tawdry mauve]

#☀️off-topic-discussion

[raven glen]

Not sure wat the lore for warframe is but lets be honest writer csn make anyone win buuuut lore wise idek cus traveler is a god gave us god powers and im pretty sure we got godlike powers in warframe too. Ig tie?

[green cobalt]

comparing warframe's "void" and destiny's "light/dark" would be just like two kids going
"yeah but i have 50 million billion"
"i have 50 million billion plus 1"
"yeah well i have infinity plus 50 million billion"

no real point since they're both "i can do whatever i want actually" powers

[warm berry]

OK so tie right ?

[green cobalt]

sure

[tawdry mauve]

litterally who cares

power comparisons mean nothing and i hate people for judging anything based on them

[warm berry]

Was just curious

Also which guardian subclass is the most powerful ?

[green cobalt]

same deal

i have 50 million billion plus 1

[tawdry mauve]

i have this much power ✋ 🤚

[warm berry]

Ok

[chrome fog]

Scorn that are with the witness are different from Fikrul Scorn

Also yeah power scaling kinda bupkis

[empty fern]

Ah wtf

Oh spaces

[tawdry mauve]

L

[empty fern]

Shut

[tawdry mauve]

spamming characters

banned

[empty fern]

It was a trap, and you set it

[torpid flint]

Also the other side when people compare like Doom and Destiny

You cannot compare them

This is two entirely different universes

[fresh zephyr]

wasnt savthun going to be become a disciple of the witness? she had pryamid stuff on her ship in the opening mission and seems to talk about it over in her memory logs

[fresh zephyr]

ok yea hes dead disregard

Rip big red

[fiery copper]

Rhulk got assigned to her throne world in order to train her

He didn't know she already had plans to be chosen by the Light.

She was just going along with it for a while before WQ, where she finally gained the Light and sealed Rhulk inside his pyramid.

[fresh zephyr]

so then in perservation he makes the monolouges about on how much he fucking hates savathun

how many known disciples are there? theres rhulk, nez, and calus, but xivu and eramis might be future disciples

hes really using everything hes got at this point

[dim minnow]

there is another known disciple, but he's long dead and we don't have a name

[chrome fog]

Betrayed the Witness because she saw this pessimistic “I will shape the world to my will, or wipe everything from existence” bullshit coming a mile away and did not want to deal with that shit; that’s why she made the plan of Witch Queen to kill herself and become a Lightbearer, then kidnap the Traveler and trap it on her Throneworld so that the Witness would not be able to achieve it’s goals.

[chrome fog]

Eramis is just a pawn, much like the Scorn under the Witness’ influence, so she’s definitely not becoming a Disciple; Xivu Arath might not follow the Witness as there’s a recent lore entry showing that Xivu holds more respect for the Sword Logic than the Witness themself

[real ingot]

Eramis also gives 0 shits about the Witness' ideals

her situation is that she dies either way

[chrome fog]

Also she’s coming to realization (hopefully, Bungie hasn’t really dwelled on her current narrative long enough for it to be coherent what her values are, buuuut) that maybe her revenge isn’t worth it after all, and that she should move on to the future

[slim elk]

Savathuns the next big deal coming up....
...
It's going to be really weird hearing Savathun as a mission control

[dim minnow]

Immaru as well

[slim elk]

Unfortunately our ghost and guardian are suffering from heroic mime syndrome again

Otherwise be very interesting to hear Ghost snark at Immaru that his guardian is better

[fresh zephyr]

that may be next seasons teaser as lightfall is about chasing the witness

and final shape, we may actually fight the witness, but bungies writing better pay up to it

[final stream]

why don't we just put taniks and the fanatic in jail or something

or does jail not exist in the city

does only mara have jail

[fresh zephyr]

it does, techically

it was stated over in a lore book back when splicer launched iirc

and taniks is like dead dead now since we killed him in dsc

[trim grotto]

And the Fanatic is missing

[dim minnow]

speaking of the Fanatic and Taniks

me and Avlus cooked up an idea for a Destiny version of the Sinister Six

Clovis AI
Fikrul
Kelgorath (again)
Alak Hul the Lightblade
Yirix
and Taniks (again as well)

[empty fern]

Why alak? Did we kidnap his lover or something?

[versed orbit]

Verok

Hive baddie

[torpid flint]

Was Oryx’s rival

[empty fern]

I see

[fresh zephyr]

Did it jiggle when you fell from fundament

[versed orbit]

did alak say this

[empty fern]

Maybe

[dim minnow]

Alak Hul's Ghost escaped so he can come back

[fresh zephyr]

i have no idea how savathun is going to listen to us in next season

[empty fern]

Oh yea

[empty fern]

Enemy of my enemy is my friend logic again

[fresh zephyr]

???????

ok?

[dim minnow]

it would be cool if we get to summon Lucent Hive to aid us in battle

Alak-Hul just smashing everything in sight

[tulip knoll]

That’d be badass ngl

And u can res them if they die but only a limited amount of times

Something like that

Savathun gonna come back like

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-avengers-you-could-not-live-with-your-own-failure-endgame-gif-17411186

[chrome fog]

Last time we did that we had Forsaken happen, and that was mostly because Petra shouldered all of running the prison on Variks

[chrome fog]

I don’t think she’s very keen on the idea of the Witness reshaping the world as it sees fit, or erase it completely, so it’s in her own interests to help us stop the Witness

[slim elk]

Godzilla Threshold has been crossed

Whatever damage Savathun can do is nothing to what the Witness already has in the bag

Its pretty simple, its won already unless we can follow it.

[torpid flint]

What. Wth did I walk into

[chrome fog]

That is the smallest part of the conversation

[raven glen]

Is it possible for doom and destiny to coexist tg doom slayers side ofc and well maybe destiny side too cus vex portals and doom slayers portals.ofc rick and morty is basically canon in every verse

[real ingot]

Dream team Dova and Avlus

[dim minnow]

just realized that there is no Vex rep in our Sinister Six

hmmm

maybe we could replace Taniks

then again that still leaves us with no Fallen Rep, but there is still Fikrul who is Scorn

maybe replace Kelly as well?

since Alak-Hul is still there

[real ingot]

I thought we were using Clovis as a Vex rep since he's the closest we really have

[dim minnow]

I intended for him to be more of a "misc rep"

for Vex rep we could realistically use pretty much any Vex mind since they seem to come back with little issue

such as Sekrion and Undying

[slim elk]

Didnt Asher get assimilated into the Vex?

They arent above using puppet personalities as weapons.. see the events on Europa in the Collapse-Golden Age

[smoky rose]

Brakion

[chrome fog]

1. Basic Multiverse theory extrapolated to the inevitable conclusion that every fictional universe exists concurrent with each other
2. The Paraverse - Bungie’s version of the multiverse - is only contained within their original series; Halo has references and was once going to be a continuation of their doom-like Marathon, with it being to Destiny what Marathon was to it

And again, what Warlock said, They’re two entirely different universes with different rules that they follow

The power scaling does not work because they are two beings with incompatible sets of rules that their kits and powers adhere to

[ember storm]

Shadow the Hedgehog is cooler

he wins

[real ingot]

Can't argue with the results

[torpid flint]

Thank god

[torpid flint]

I mean I guess, but I doubt that kinda

[fiery copper]

Basic multiverse theory is that every action creates a multiverse, which means franchises where the timeline starts before Creation/Big Bang/etc are fundamentally incompatible

For example, my setting doesn't have the Garden Before Time even as a concept (although now that it's non-canon I might just steal it lul)

[chrome fog]

Garden could still be a thing

Considering the Black Garden’s descriptor as a part of the Garden, as well as existing in the past, present, and future, which tracks with what we theorize is on the other end of the portal (in the FS teaser and the Akashic Revelation ship)

[fiery copper]

Fair enough, but if it is fully non-canon, it's 100% going in the google doc

[pearl basin]

i always had a question , how old are the characters like , savathun , mara sov , zavala , cayde , osiris , saint etc are

by old i mean their age

[ember storm]

age for guardian doesn’t necessarily matter

although all the ones you listed there have been active for centuries

Mara is a special case because the awoken originate from a pocket dimension where time passes faster, while they were also immortal, so the awoken from there lived for an ungodly amount of time

Savathun and her siblings are some of the oldest creatures in existence

an ornamental statue in Oryx’s ship was dated as older than earth itself

[pearl basin]

ohhh damn

[chrome fog]

For guardians themselves, it has been at longest a millennia since the Collapse - so about 1000 years, though it might be shorter if Drifter is simply exaggerating

Coincidentally that is also the same amount of the Awoken have existed, though their population has gone through multiple generations and migrated to multiple areas of settlement, like the Reef and Earth

[analog torrent]

what is midtown

there's just an area in the last city where guardians duke it out?

[kindred fractal]

why was ONE GUARDIAN entrusted to the remains of a GOD

LIKE WHAT THE FUCK DUDE

[smoky rose]

Hmm?

Oryx?

Its not something we were in a position to recover (+ we assumed it'd be conveniently destroyed in space or in saturn, so it wouldn't be something we need to recover). Unfortunately the thanos snap that stole Titan completely fucked with things around saturn

So

[safe galleon]

you know, i know powerscaling is dumb, but was calus actually strong at all lorewise, even when we fight him?

like, he seems kinda lame compared to the witness's other disciples. could they have not gotten a better guy

im not implying calus is weak, but what i am implying is that if you put calus and rhulk in a room and locked them in there for 15 minutes, once you opened the door calus would be a cartoon pile of ash and a pair of charred shoes

[blazing wasp]

I believe calus was intended to die there

A bait, and we were carrying the fish in our pocket

[safe galleon]

i suppose

[blazing wasp]

If the witness joinked our ghost midfight calus would just shoot it

[safe galleon]

also, unrelated question: why were we able to kill oryx? he's a hive god known to have been far above guardians in the past, isn't he?

[safe galleon]

yeah that makes sense

[blazing wasp]

We've never beaten anyone very powerful with our own strength

We used kabooms and mechanics shenanigans

We fought dirty because we're really fucking good at fighting dirty

[safe galleon]

i mean, i know, but did we weaken him or something, or was using his own power against him just enough to get him down

[blazing wasp]

We detonated fucking bombs

I'm pretty sure that weakened him

Oh yeah

And we also killed crota

[safe galleon]

i mean, yeah, i guess

[blazing wasp]

Cutting off his largest tribute giver

Then we killed the highest one's beneath crota

[safe galleon]

ok NOW it's making more sense

[blazing wasp]

Effectively starving him if food also causes your gun to fire

[safe galleon]

so his worm was in danger of like

cannibalizing him?

well not 'cannibalizing' i guess theyre not the same species

[blazing wasp]

We basically just repeatedly smashed oryx's knees in with rocks and stole his explosives and threw them at him

And he still threw hands

[safe galleon]

[blazing wasp]

Yes

Or not in danger

I believe it was beginning to

Man's was dying of starvation and still powerful enough to require significant assistance from 3rd party sources

[winter tangle]

Is halo cannon in the destiny universe?? In halo ce one of the terminals has a cutscene with something that almost looks like the traveller

[ember storm]

they’re not in the same universe

bungie just has a concept called the Paraverse which includes all of their properties in vastly differing realities

Destiny, halo, marathon

something else I forgot the name of

[winter tangle]

Anthem

[real ingot]

Starved him to death

[blazing wasp]

I believe the dares stuff is a case of "if canon or not canon changes exactly nothing because its that unimportant lore and narrative wise"

[real ingot]

‘Take dares as non canon unless specifically stated otherwise’

[fierce dune]

Fuck naw ima take it as cannon so that star horse exists officially

[tawdry mauve]

why of course its gnop!

[fierce dune]

I thought oryx got his worm removed and replaced with taken energy. Idk why I thought that

Probably because of the giant orb of taken energy that chills in his chest

[ember storm]

that's his heart

[trim grotto]

Pathways Into Darkness

[mild wagon]

Ya know, there is some lore-related irony to be had in the fact that Whisper of the Worm is close to being meta against Oryx...

[mild wagon]

something about the light being at least equal to the Sword Logic in terms of raw power and reality bending bullcrap

which also reminds me: Isn't Oryx just a massive hypocrite when you get down to it, because he was relying on a power that isn't even his own? (his Worm parasite at first, then the power to take which was given to him by the Darkness/Witness/unclear as of now)

as well as using Touch of Malice to desperately cling to life?

not to mention the Guardians wouldn't have been able to defeat him in the first place had they followed the Sword Logic (which would require them to fight to the death for the right to challenge Oryx and then dying to him, because the Light is a power source based on cooperation and selfless sacrifices)

[real ingot]

Hive culture is full of hypocrisy

but in their eyes he earned it

killed a worm god to commune with what they saw as literal darkness

and gained the power to take

and the worm thing he admits was given

that's why his species is doomed to die

he was gifted it instead of taking it

[ancient fox]

The witness found the traveler in a pile of dirt LMAO

[green cobalt]

so true

[true vault]

whats a throne world again? i forgot. and can anyone get a throne world?

[dim minnow]

throne worlds are domains within the Ascendant Plane claimed and shaped by one's own will

most Throne Worlds are exclusive to Hive and were made through sword logic, though there are some outliers

[slim elk]

(Mara)

[true vault]

i heard depending on the stuff you kill, your throne world gets bigger

[chrome fog]

He exists, just specifically outside the events of Destiny

[dim minnow]

1. Hiraks the Mindbender made one despite being Eliksni/Scorn, though he still used sword logic to create it
2. Mara Sov had one (which is where Shattered Throne took place) which was made with Techeun and Ahamkara magic proving that the sword logic was not needed to make one
3. Savathun's Throne World was a regular one at first but after gaining the Light she transformed it.

[dim minnow]

hence the sword logic requirement, though Mara proved you didn't need it

[true vault]

ooooo alrighty

very cool

[fierce dune]

techgnically the requirement is a connection to darkness or murdering someone powerful enough

[chrome fog]

Slash generally huge amounts of paracausal power

Sword Logic allows generation of Ascendent Energy via the Worms, who are paracausal in nature due to originating from the Garden

[fierce dune]

wait what where did it say the worm gods originated from the garden?

or the worms

[chrome fog]

Unveiling and other lore tabs that mention the Garden very specifically mention Worms and Bugs within the Garden, and the only notable entities who are worms are… the Worm Gods

[green cobalt]

so what's ahsa from, with her being a proto worm god thing

[chrome fog]

Plus it tracks with how they are able to bestow power derived from Darkness

[fierce dune]

that doesnt make sense with ahsa

[chrome fog]

Either vague Paracausality like with the Ahamkara or Light

Which, considering we attribute the description of the bugs to the Ahamkara, tracks

[fierce dune]

the worm gods were like ahsa till they took the darkness (accepted it) from the witness

[chrome fog]

Alongside with Ahsa mentioning the Worm Gods we’re traitors that took on the Witness’ Darkness

[fierce dune]

so then that wouldnt track that the worm gods are from the garden

[chrome fog]

We aren’t 100% if the Ahamkara work with Darkness or Light, or a mix of both or neither, so still works

[fierce dune]

they just work with paracausality changing reality to fit what the user wishes

[chrome fog]

Yes, the big leviathan in the methane sea that knows of the Gardener and also can speak through others minds is tooootally not paracausal

[fierce dune]

the gardener is the traveler....

[chrome fog]

And? I didn’t say she wasn’t

[fierce dune]

and the winnower is a title the witness upholds

unveiling was just conways game of life destiny version lol

[chrome fog]

Your point being?

[fiery copper]

"do you have a physical or magic damage build?"

"cheat code"

thats the best way i've come up with to explain it ^

[chrome fog]

Physical or mental

[fiery copper]

they are decidedly neither.

[chrome fog]

They can also be interpreted as both; they take the desires of a person and make them real

[fierce dune]

-what you are saying doesnt track, thew worms arent from the garden if they arent true worms to begin with,

2. multiple nonparacasul beings can communicate through minds, example psions

[fiery copper]

or if they're Both, they're so close to the middle of the spectrum that you can't really group them into a single category.

[fierce dune]

3- they are to gift darkness powers BECAUSE THE WITNESS GAVE THEM THE ABILITY TO

[fiery copper]

the entire garden was a metaphor. there weren't literal worms because there wasn't a literal garden.

[fierce dune]

im not arguing that blue is

[chrome fog]

Ahsa actively helping Sloane combat her Taken plague points to her being Paracausal in nature

[fierce dune]

im not saying shes not paracasaul lmao im saying there is no garden to begin with

[chrome fog]

It can also be literal in some small sense

[fiery copper]

nah

[chrome fog]

Then that’s simply a difference of opinion

I believe there is, with the original Garden being beyond the portal on the Traveler’s shell

[fiery copper]

unveiling explicitly states like 20 different times throughout the story of The Garden that it's entirely a metaphor

[fierce dune]

it was an ontological concept of the universe of fighting for survival and trying to survive without death. that is the flower game

[fiery copper]

Once upon a time,* a gardener and a winnower lived** together in a garden.***

* It was once before a time, because time had not yet begun.
** We did not live. We existed as principles of ontological dynamics that emerged from mathematical structures, as bodiless and inevitable as the primes.
*** It was the field of possibility that prefigured existence.

[chrome fog]

The Sword Logic is “Might makes Right” made even more real with magic; metaphors are not purely figurative in Destiny

[fiery copper]

idk how much clearer than this you can get without staring straight into the camera and saying "this is a metaphor" in a deadpan voice

[fierce dune]

BECAUSE THE WITNESS HAS USED THAT THOUGHT TO MANIPULATE OTHERS, LOOK AT THE HIVE

[chrome fog]

And yet we have Alphi Lupi and other entries that confirm parts of Unveiling to be true

[fierce dune]

what partrs

[chrome fog]

The emergent pattern of the Vex

[fierce dune]

black garden, next?

[chrome fog]

And what is the Black Garden to be stated to be a part of?

[fiery copper]

a recreation

of a metaphor

[chrome fog]

Even has a stump of a Tree of Silver wings

The plateau in the background

[fierce dune]

that is a basic platue....

[chrome fog]

It’s a tree

[fierce dune]

how and where

[fiery copper]

have you ever gone to sunday school and they have some of the kids get up and act out one of jesus' parables
incredibly specific example but the point is that metaphors can be turned real, but that doesn't make the original into a physical thing.

[fiery copper]

nah it's 100% made to look like a tree.

they're wrong about literally everything else, but the tree looks like a tree.

it's NOT a tree, it's a vex construct designed to look like one

but it does in fact look like one

[chrome fog]

Just like they couldn’t make a perfect copy of the Veil, they can’t make a copy of a Tree of a Silver Wings; not to mention that it’s size in comparison to the next oldest tree is considerably bigger

[fierce dune]

it just looks like a normal platue

[chrome fog]

Which indicates a greater amount of time passed

[fierce dune]

seriously it has a land slide and everything

[chrome fog]

@dim minnow help me out I’m not fully stocked on the lore

And it’s 10:30, I need to pack for a trip

[dim minnow]

what you need?

[torpid flint]

He’s trying to prove the Garden exists

[fiery copper]

the garden was a metaphor right? it wasn't an actual physical place

[dim minnow]

ever heard of reification?

[fierce dune]

hes very poorly doing it biting at loose strings like worms and bugs lol

[chrome fog]

Also the Plateau being a Stump of a Tree of Solver Wings

[fiery copper]

the vex make things that look like plants all the time

[dim minnow]

Reification is when you think of or treat something abstract as a physical thing. Reification is a complex idea for when you treat something immaterial — like happiness, fear, or evil — as a material thing.

[dim minnow]

yeah, it is, there is a reason why the Veil statue is in there

[fiery copper]

read The Forsaken Prince, it surprisingly has a lot of info on how the Black Garden works

[empty fern]

Bungie has vex lore but it’s in all the wrong places

[dim minnow]

this is a notable theme in regards to lore

the Black Garden could be a reification of the Garden

[chrome fog]

Do you also have the clip of the Worms and Bugs in the Garden? Can’t remember what tab it’s from

[fierce dune]

eh fuck it ill concur that a platue looking like a platue is a stump

[fiery copper]

@chrome fog read this too, don't just ignore it and skip to the one where he agrees with you

[torpid flint]

Not really, since it goes into detail about the garden from Uldren’s perspective

[fierce dune]

also the statue there could be for the bony vex just to worship so that the witness can co ntroll a sect of vex

[fiery copper]

They chewed at their cracked lip, which existed only because this is an allegory. "I'm going to do something about it," they said. "We need a new rule."

[fiery copper]

i said this earlier as a joke

[fierce dune]

i mean the veil statues were made by the witness' people

[fiery copper]

but they literally do say "this is an allegory"

[chrome fog]

The idea still needs to come from somewhere, as well as the Vex themselves, who are a giant missing piece of the Gardener and the Witness’ story

[dim minnow]

really looking a little tree-like here

[fierce dune]

why?

[fiery copper]

if you don't believe bungie then im sorry but i think its terminal

[chrome fog]

Because things come from things

[chrome fog]

Ok

[fierce dune]

ok but why do the vex need to be involved in their fight?

they cant simulate paracausality

[torpid flint]

So then what does the portal in the travelers shell lead to then? Could it be that it’s a physical representation of the garden? Looks very green and gardeny to me

[fierce dune]

they actually need human hands and creativity to replicate paracasaul structures

[dim minnow]

because the Vex have to win

[chrome fog]

They’re a big part of the Allegory of the Garden, being what appears at the end of the Universe for every Flower Game played

[dim minnow]

and they can't because of paracausality

[fierce dune]

but they cant simulate paracausality so whats the point

your trying to connect dots that dont really exist lol

[chrome fog]

Gonna tie this back to the game allegory: it’s a repository of all the pieces played in the game, backed-up by the memory of Darkness and given form by the Light

[torpid flint]

Cause the Vex are the perfect race. They must win, because they cannot lose. They can only be halted by paracausal forces

[fiery copper]

unveiling gives a satisfactory answer to why the vex exist where the garden can still be an allegory.

the vex are the pattern that the flower game always ends as. when the universe was created, and the first physical things came into being, the force of the gardener and winnower's battle knocked some Unreal things into Realspace.

[green cobalt]

but can't vex suppress the light and alter time and shit

[chrome fog]

They’re the reason why Paracausality is involved in the story at all

[dim minnow]

the Vex were the original Final Shape

[chrome fog]

And the Gardener wanted to change that, so she proposed Paracausality

[fiery copper]

even if you believe the garden is real, the vex are a pattern, a nonphysical thing.

[dim minnow]

the Gardener wanted to force a different outcome

[fierce dune]

the reason why paracasulity is in the story is because a giant ball was discovered by sand people from starwars

[chrome fog]

Sooooo

[dim minnow]

and that pattern evolved into a physical thing, the Vex

[chrome fog]

Yet we fight them on the daily

So where’d they come from

[fiery copper]

you're right, but you're also dumb while still being right.

[fiery copper]

the pattern infected physical matter

[dim minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/starwars-frustration-tusken-raider-yes-yass-gif-4813355

[fiery copper]

the vex aren't the robots

the vex aren't even the milk

the vex are the pattern IN those things.

[empty fern]

[dim minnow]

the Vex don't even time travel

[fiery copper]

it's like

[chrome fog]

This race of beings that were so overpowered with their memetic form that infects all matter it comes in contact with, where did they come from and why haven’t they won? Because Paracausality was created, granted to the mortal populace

[dim minnow]

heh, time traveling robots that aren't robots and don't time travel

[fierce dune]

holy fuck my man is going into theory town now

[chrome fog]

And where does the pattern originate from?

[fiery copper]

they haven't won because they literally have no rush.

[dim minnow]

the Garden

[chrome fog]

I’ve been in theory Town, you’re just new here

[fiery copper]

it's more efficient to wait for us to kill each other

[dim minnow]

Vex are afraid of us though

[empty fern]

I feel like this is vex slander

[fiery copper]

the vex don't have the constraints of their leaders having lifespans

which is the reason WE try and do things quickly.

[chrome fog]

And yet they scramble to try and understand Paracausality because it threatens their goal of complete assimilation of the universe

[dim minnow]

hell, the Light is what led to the downfall of Atheon, who was getting close to giving the Vex what the Witness wanted

[chrome fog]

All of the major Vex Threats have been experiments in counteracting Paracausality or using it to their own gain

And so again, why?

When they can infect guardians with Radiolaria

[fiery copper]

yeah, but like i said, they have no rush. they will be here until the end of the universe GUARANTEED, and we inhabit like 3 planets in a single solar system of a single galaxy.

[chrome fog]

When they can turn everything they touch into Vex

Why have they not won then?

[fiery copper]

and you might say "oh it isnt guaranteed"

[fiery copper]

they dont need to have won yet

[fierce dune]

they just need a bearing in a universe to weave themselves in it

[dim minnow]

the Vex are tied to their goal

so much so that they can hardly be called sentient

[chrome fog]

They don’t know if they’ll win, we are outside of their predictions and therefore a threat to their domination of the universe, and so they seek to counteract or use it to their benefit

They cannot simulate Paracausality

As you said

[fiery copper]

if humanity developed lightspeed travel at this moment on june 29 2023, it would still not be physically possible to colonize the universe.

[chrome fog]

They tried right as the Collapse happened

[fiery copper]

i'm talking about the universe.

not "one system over"

[torpid flint]

FTL would be needed

[chrome fog]

They almost got outside of the Sol System

[fiery copper]

the vex can teleport, and seemingly construct portals over infinite space

[fiery copper]

do you realize how far away the nearest system is

like actually do you know the number

[chrome fog]

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/warp-fragment

[dim minnow]

what does that mean again?

[chrome fog]

Faster Than Light

FTL

[chrome fog]

Yeah, and they almost did it

Too bad the Collapse happened

[dim minnow]

I wonder how well Destiny space travel compares to stuff like Star Wars

[fiery copper]

we get extrasolar shit all the time

we didn't GO there

[chrome fog]

Hell, the Distributary might be outside the system, I think

[fierce dune]

it compares as "shit we got lightspeed" and "shit we got light speed"

[dim minnow]

Vex can just rewrite history, Hive use the Ascendant Plane

[fiery copper]

there are rocks flying through our system constantly

[dim minnow]

and that means?

[chrome fog]

[fiery copper]

you just catch a single rock and congrats, you got extrasolar material

[chrome fog]

I’m so tired

[fierce dune]

both have super fast ways to travel through space

thats all there really is to compare lmao

[dim minnow]

so they are pretty much on par?

[fierce dune]

your comparing space travel lmao what do you expectg

[torpid flint]

Honestly, doesn’t seem like it does that well. Hyperspace is different from the Acendant Plane, Vex Portals.

[chrome fog]

I need to pack for this surprise trip, give me like 30 minutes to come back

[fiery copper]

i'd say that at peak technology, destiny travel is faster.

star wars doesn't have instant portals.

the vex and the hive both do.

[chrome fog]

I’d say the power of Taking is faster

[fiery copper]

cool

[chrome fog]

Teleport woop woop

[fierce dune]

jedi can teleport using immense force energy

[fiery copper]

idk why you said that like you're disagreeing but yeah you're right taking is pretty fast

[torpid flint]

They can go across the entire galaxy in a day

With the fastest of their hyperdrives

[dim minnow]

Ascendant Plane does have drawbacks like needing Sword Logic (unless you have immense power like Mara) to go to and from as well as forming the path

[chrome fog]

Just mentioning it, a fun fact

[fiery copper]

star wars is contained within one single galaxy, any travel there is instantly less impressive than whatever the vex are doing on Volantis

[fierce dune]

in physical its fast, the entity being taken basically gets to feel their memory and will stripped from them

thats not fast sadly

[fiery copper]

yeah im talking about physical speed

[fierce dune]

while the witness tells them sweet nothings of salvation and joy

[fiery copper]

miles per hour

[chrome fog]

That’s if they get Taken as in brought to the Witness themself

[fiery copper]

kilos per meter or whatev

[chrome fog]

Instead of Taken and teleported

[fiery copper]

anyway im tired as hell imma sleep now

[fierce dune]

what?

[dim minnow]

even guardian ships can to to and from planets pretty quickly

though it is constrained to a single system so we don't really know how fast they are

[fiery copper]

i'd say it's been fun but honestly i just have a headache (despite my general assholish-ness i don't have anything against any of you, yall are probably really cool or smth)

[fierce dune]

bionic gave me a headache back with the worms

[chrome fog]

Getting Taken as in turned into a Taken involves becoming converted by the Deep - another name for the Witness

Oh yeah! Dova, the worms and bugs in the Garden thing

[dim minnow]

when you are reduced to your most simple, perfect form

[fierce dune]

yea the witness strips you of will and fills your head with joy and salvation

[chrome fog]

Fills it with nothing, takes it out actually

You have no will

It is your master’s will now

[dim minnow]

yeah, never outright confirmed, but it is speculated that some of the other lifeforms that came from the Garden are the ancestors to Ahamkara and Worms

[fierce dune]

didnt the grimoire card of an ogre being taken talk abt how he felt joy and salvation?

[dim minnow]

it's confirmed now that Worm Gods are just transformed, so maybe Ahsa's species had a common ancestor with Ahamkara

[chrome fog]

Gonna search Ishtar

[fierce dune]

dont give this dude hope

[fiery copper]

they're asking if the worm gods were physical worms in a physical garden

[fierce dune]

which grimoire card is that ogre?

[chrome fog]

Hey, being inherently paracausal, they could’ve given themselves Physical forms; the Ahamkara did it, one even turned into a Dragon for Saladin to fight because he wished he could fight a dragon

And accepting the corruptive influence of the Witness’ Darkness altered them to become the Worms they are now instead of Ahsa’s species

Ah, here it is

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/mk-44-stand-asides

Also the mention of the Tree of Silver Wings, before we even saw one

Which was Arrivals

This is from Curse of Osiris

[fierce dune]

i mean we heard of nezerec from a helmet and didnt get anything back till 5 years later

that isnt saying much lol

[chrome fog]

And yet, Nezarec was confirmed as an actual entity, not some deity of the Psions

Lore comes and goes in Destiny, old pieces get further confirmation and newer pieces get recontextualized

I believe the Garden is real, we’re simply in one flower of it

Or whatever

[fierce dune]

I think it was just a false Bible the witness created lol

[chrome fog]

Going back to this

[chrome fog]

A false Bible only works with a few truths

[fierce dune]

I mean what you put also said us as well as the worms and bugs and it seems to take place before we even get the light

[chrome fog]

The rest can be lies, but to truly fool someone you give them a hint of the truth

[ocean oriole]

How strong is strand lore wise my friends said it could unravel time itself is that true

[fierce dune]

If we weren’t paracasaul then why are we mentioned?

[chrome fog]

Even Savathun, Witch Queen of lies, knew this

[chrome fog]

The Witness’ species had the Light and the Darkness prior to us, that doesn’t change much

What’s the point of “it happened before us so it doesn’t matter?”

[chrome fog]

Not true, it can unravel your being like shown in the training montage

Friends are trolling you

[ocean oriole]

They lied

Ahhh

[fierce dune]

Because you pointed out worms and bugs as if it meant something that it tells of the ahamkara and worm gods. We are mentioned to but we aren’t paracasaul yet so why mention us if we aren’t paracasaul

The worm gods and wish dragons are

[fierce dune]

I mean the true bits are it attacking the traveler. The first knife to it

[chrome fog]

Actually scratch that, we are mentioned
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-wager

[chrome fog]

We are paracausal, but only by the gift of the Traveler/Gardener

[fierce dune]

I was talking about the makers cause it came out before unveiling

[chrome fog]

[fierce dune]

And you used it as evidence to worms and bugs

[chrome fog]

I’m walking away from this one

[fierce dune]

Well there is no physical garden

[slim elk]

Whatever the truth is, its likely the place where the portal leads

[trim grotto]

The Black Garden is strongly implied to be the physical manifestation of the Garden from Unveiling. It even has the Stump of the Tree of Silver Wings. You fight the Consecrated Mind in it.

Of course, the new cutscene throws Unveiling under a fresh level of scrutiny, but nonetheless.

[slim elk]

Cutscene does confirm Traveler-Veil do predate the Witness, so it fits well
Just hard confirms the Witness is not the Winnower

[chrome fog]

Or at least does some funky stuff with our understanding of the Winnower and Witness

And for the Plateau being a stump
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/seed-of-silver-wings

Thank you Mael

[trim grotto]

[fresh zephyr]

Is eramis still an antagonist or what?

[limpid flower]

she saved our boy in defiance

so who knows!

but she also tried nuking the traveler

[grizzled zinc]

Question, does omnioculus have anything to do with the veil and neomuna? It’s effect is called “beyond the veil” and the icon is similar to the patterns we see on cloudstrider tech, maybe the ishtar built it using what they learned about the veil?

[trim grotto]

Nothing connects them beyond a name often used to refer to the Void, no

[grizzled zinc]

the lore tab has nothing to do with the exotic either.

[trim grotto]

Correct, it is one of three pieces that tell a story connected to the season of the chosen

Neomuni never left Neomuna except for one of the Cloudstriders and her team
The chances of this being connected in any way are slim by default, and beyond the veil is a phrase that stands independantly of the artifact

[grizzled zinc]

Doesn’t neomuna have people that go out to do things on titan?

[real ingot]

Where'd you get that?

[trim grotto]

Titan?

[grizzled zinc]

Patrol dialogue

[real ingot]

We've never seen any Neomuni off Neptune

Bluejay is the only one we can say left Neptune as well

[trim grotto]

Except for the abandoned Pouka on an orbital station above... Neptune.

"Titan" has no hits on Neomuna patrol dialogue

[dim minnow]

I think they are confusing "Triton"

[trim grotto]

Or at all during Lightfall, actually
For dialogue, that is

Ah yes

Jisu Calerondo: With Neomuna Civil News, this is Jisu Calerondo reporting. The astronomy department at Esi University has petitioned for the city to expand its scientific presence on Triton. Astronomy chair Farooqi believes its radio telescope array — now used as a listening post — can be restored with minimal investment. This is Jisu Calerondo, signing off.

[dim minnow]

thank you Miso Carbonara

Triton is the largest of Neptune's 13 moons for those unaware

apparently it is not too far off from Luna's size

[ember storm]

send the hive there

it would be really funny

[kindred fractal]

Rhulk

[hasty jetty]

Everyone needs to take a second look at the two lies two truths dialogue by savathun! Huge implications for the future based off what we know now!

[slim perch]

we're on the fourteenth trillion look at it honestly

[hasty jetty]

True, but with the reveal this week, things have narrowed down

Especially combined with the drifters dialogue a couple weeks back about creatures outside of sol

Also, my little theory is that savathun is totally helping us get io back and using the tree of silver wings to get thru the portal next season

[sick yew]

I mean that stuff off Sol is pretty old lore at this point

He already spoke of it back in Forsaken

[real ingot]

We also have a tree of silver wings right above Earth

And the stump in the garden

[sick yew]

How many do we know of?
Io and Pyramid ship right?

[real ingot]

those two are true trees

the stump in the Black Garden is a tree of silver wing

[sick yew]

How'd it get there

[real ingot]

just depends whether the BG is the garden or a replica

[real ingot]

Vex simulation or the BG is the actual garden

[sick yew]

Vex simulations in the Garden? I doubt it

[real ingot]

I mean

The entire thing

is a sim

that's a possibility

I'm not fully onboard with it

[sick yew]

Wait are we talking about the Black Garden rn?

[real ingot]

yes

[sick yew]

I never heard that theory

[real ingot]

really

[sick yew]

I highly doubt its simulated

[real ingot]

Dova and some others were discussing it earlier

Most of us think it's just the garden in a physical form

[sick yew]

some of the older lore would suggest that yeah

back then Uldren went there

[hasty jetty]

If you guys remember, in season of the arrivals we had to clear savathuns interference from the tree of silver wings each weeek so we could commune with the witness in some way

[sick yew]

More like receive cryptic messages but yes

[real ingot]

Yeah and now we have another tree

that was also just messages

We as beings of light connected with the Witness a being of dark

[hasty jetty]

I think savathuns interference means she wanted to use the tree for her own devices

[sick yew]

I dont see why the Witness would still commune to us tho
We clearly aint gonna join them and they already succeded their goal

[sick yew]

In her own words she wanted to protect us from it

She said as much back in her cutscene during uuuuuh Lost I think

[real ingot]

Keep in mind

the Witness tried converting us

Savathun would not succeed if we converted

[sick yew]

https://youtu.be/y2j-Okcl8GU

@hasty jetty

[hasty jetty]

I see, but at the same time she definitely wouldn’t of explained the connection of the tree to the traveler and the veil. The witness took Io for a reason, it was asha with titan, finding the veil with mars, why would they need Io?

Just been trying to find reasons

[sick yew]

the reason is called DCV

lol

[real ingot]

remember Mercury is taken as well

mind telling me the significance of that

[sick yew]

The Witness wants the one lost sector on it to itself

[hasty jetty]

Well yea but bungo is gonna try to explain it even a little in the lore

Even if they shouldn’t of done it

[sick yew]

Not everything

[hasty jetty]

Yea that’s a tough one. Not much paracausal going on there

[sick yew]

All there is on Mercury is the Infinite Forrest

[hasty jetty]

Yea no idea why the witness would want that

[slim perch]

for a while the witness kept trying to tempt us to succumb to the darkness

so

i think its considerably plausible for it to commune with us

[real ingot]

yeah it was clear in WQ it doesn't care anymore

[slim perch]

i mean, sort of

[real ingot]

Calus took our place

[slim perch]

rhulk kept on the trope