#Progression in Shattered

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

lament salmon
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A channel to discuss the flow of the game and suggest changes

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What i noticed about this game is that, in early stages, you may be lucky to get some scaling item that can help you during the entire run, such as a ring, an artifact or a wand, that you can invest freely without it becoming obsolete later

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or you may not! And it will make the following stages of prison/caves much harder in comparison

gritty moon
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Theres a solution: dont be stingy with ru SoU and use them on early game weps and/or armor

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Just a few

lament salmon
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so my suggestion is to add a guaranteed item of such in the Sewers, like str potions of scrolls of upgrade

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this will also mean the "build" of the run is going to be shaped early

lament salmon
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and sometimes this luck, or lack of it, can preety much end or save your run

gritty moon
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Whats the issue

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Ure describing roguelikes in general

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Sometimes u get a rly good item, ometimes u dont, thats half the fun

rocky niche
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yeah roguelikes are luck-based in nature

lament salmon
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well then why not make strength potions and scrolls of upgrade random as well.

gritty moon
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Even then shattered is very easy to win in

rocky niche
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you can get a really lucky run, sometimes you die at floor 1

gritty moon
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Pots of str and SoU are ur only real way toactively progress thru gear

rocky niche
gritty moon
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Withoht em ur progression is stunted and up to luck

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Gerting random gear is not the same

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Srsly, its fine to not get good wands or rings or artis early

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Just invest a few SoU into a quarterstaff or leather

rocky niche
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its the same as getting stat point increase in other games, just that in PD you get it in the form of potion or scroll

gritty moon
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Prisons goes smoothly

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Dont be stinfy

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Then u get a good highet tier wep or plate, build around 9t

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Or the wand or ring u want

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Theres no need to handhold more

lament salmon
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nice opinion

gritty moon
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¯_(ツ)_/¯

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Play vanilla

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Ull see r3al shitty rng

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Shattered is rly consistent the way it is now, even with ur "issue"

lament salmon
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never described it as an issue, i just think this can be another way to make progression more consistent

gritty moon
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Its already consistent

waxen kiln
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I was thinking about this before

gritty moon
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Chadbox Basylev coming in

lament salmon
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especially since you can build around artifacts and wands more that equipment, it can make runs fell more consistantly satisfying, as stabbing things repeatedly with sneak attacks can only get so exciting

rocky niche
waxen kiln
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especially when I was doing summons rework

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I created an idea of tiering

lament salmon
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it doesnt take away from the experience to make roguelikes consistent in my experience

gritty moon
waxen kiln
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instead of having your progression be reliant on scrolls of upgrade

rocky niche
gritty moon
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Theres lots of ppl that dont like 2ands

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They likr weps

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Or armor builds

waxen kiln
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most of your items now scale to your level, to your strength

lament salmon
gritty moon
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True

waxen kiln
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and scrolls are used to instead interact with tiering

waxen kiln
lament salmon
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yes i think its true, making the best of what you got

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exept sometimes all you got is a cursed shortsword

gritty moon
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yeah

rocky niche
rocky niche
lament salmon
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gets very repetitive tbh

waxen kiln
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all elements (dying once and for all, randomized item colors, random loot in general) lead to you relying on your mastery to adapt and overcome

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and not just bruteforce

lament salmon
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i think when player dies they should realise its their fault, even when it isnt, or when it is but they dont think so

rocky niche
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the only improvement you get is the wisdom you as a player gets

waxen kiln
gritty moon
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^

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in shattered it is just ur fault

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evan made a great job at lowering the rng bs of vanilla to the point where u pretty much can win with anything in 0chal

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and if u dont it is ur fault in some way

lament salmon
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well you can beat any rng with skill. some players may not have the time to die repeatedly in sewers from crabs learning the game

waxen kiln
waxen kiln
rocky niche
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true

lament salmon
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it could be made more accesible without taking away form the experience

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more players could enjoy this if it was a less hardcore "die or get killed" "skill issue" roguelike

waxen kiln
lament salmon
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and i agree that shattered does a great job at making the game more accesible

waxen kiln
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I actually did add something akin to easy mode of Brogue

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you get no score, but can revive without limits and take less damage

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it is not probably the best way, especially with how I inherited the idea of mistakes being less punishing by giving you more hp effectively

gritty moon
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i think at most u could add an easy mode to shattered

waxen kiln
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but, ultimately, I think we should just accept than difficulty is just the part of the game

gritty moon
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even if shattered is already one of the easiest pd mods

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but there is such a thing as dumbinb down the difficulty too much

lament salmon
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now tell me, would you really enjoy the gave less if you were guaranteed an item in sewers?

gritty moon
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and rng

gritty moon
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half the fun is adapting to whatever u get

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knowing full well u can beat teh game with whatever the game throws at u bcuz of how its balanced

lament salmon
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then play challenges if the game is too easy..

rocky niche
gritty moon
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i have too

rocky niche
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thats boring

waxen kiln
gritty moon
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they are also beatable 100% of the time

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with mostly anything

waxen kiln
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compared to literally every other mobile game

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yes

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it is harsh

gritty moon
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supernewb claims even 9chal is winnable 99% or 100% of the time

waxen kiln
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is it fair? yes

rocky niche
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besides, theres already a "guaranteed item" or whatever

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in the sewers

gritty moon
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mhm

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ghost

rocky niche
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its called ghost quest

lament salmon
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oh right the ghost

gritty moon
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attached to a miniboss that is a tutorial for various big features

lament salmon
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well would the game be better without the ghost? its also a guaranteed item

gritty moon
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fetid rat prepares u for goo mainly, and environmental fights like DM-200s and elementals (need to step on water)

gritty moon
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bcuz that is risk reward

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it is attached to a quest that can get rough depending on what u get

rocky niche
gritty moon
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that and yk... u dont want to pick the high lvl item from the ghost

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like if u get offered a glaive and leather?

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u pick leather

lament salmon
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its not like the players get a scaling item for nothing

gritty moon
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lol

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the glaive is not nearly as good at that point in the game to leather

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as leather*

rocky niche
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besides

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what do you mea by guaranteed item

waxen kiln
rocky niche
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is it like this single specific item that any players can pick up at a specific floor in the sewers?

lament salmon
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same way you always get a str pot or SoU, you get a more scaling item such as a ring, an artifact, or a wand

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perhaps cursed

gritty moon
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he means giving players a free easy win by getting one of the most op items in the game

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lolz

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i dont like how wands are so overpowered tbh

rocky niche
lament salmon
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i never said it has to be easy win

rocky niche
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imp quest

gritty moon
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literally skps the str system entirely

rocky niche
gritty moon
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like a lot easier

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wandmaker is already a very storng npc

rocky niche
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theres a reason wandmaker and imp is not in the sewers

gritty moon
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imp is also good, if he were any earlier itd be hilariously powerful

waxen kiln
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yeah man

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accessories in this game are pretty good

rocky niche
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and all of these arent guaranteed, theyre quests you can die when you risk it

gritty moon
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^

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wandmaker can get rly dicey with rotberry

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so can elemental if u arent prepared

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the wraith one is kinda easy tho so long as u beeline it

waxen kiln
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also, just as additional point

rocky niche
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im not really good at shattered myself only obtained amulet twice ad never ascended

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so im not a good player

waxen kiln
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would it be interesting, if you knew than you could win right from early game?

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allowing good items to be guaranteed in sewers basically ensures that

rocky niche
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but i understand the game design philosophy behind PD

gritty moon
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where if u got, say, glaive

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gg u won

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just like that

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ignore most game features u just won

lament salmon
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i never wanted the game to be easier when i suggested it, only more consistent

gritty moon
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this would be similar enuff since those 3 item types skip str, except now its guaranteed instead of rng

lament salmon
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if you dont think more consistensy is good for this game - so be it..

gritty moon
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ur idea isnt giving more consistency, zhen

rocky niche
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more consistency is bad for any roguelike

gritty moon
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or well, not just more consistency

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it also makes it a looooooooot easier

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anyone that plays shpd for long enuff would realize this bcuz wands rings and artifacts are stupid powerful

rocky niche
gritty moon
waxen kiln
gritty moon
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shattered is rly consistent

waxen kiln
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just look at the success of roguelites

gritty moon
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its good bcuzof that

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its just that it also, yk

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still has lotsa rng

waxen kiln
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they literally give you free perks the more you play it

gritty moon
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but all the rng is properly balanced so that u can win with anything

waxen kiln
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yet some still manage to be difficult

gritty moon
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u can make something consistent without ruining a roguelike

rocky niche
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hmmmmm, i see your point

gritty moon
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even tboi kinda did it? Buffed a bunch of items to not be completely worthless

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the trick is making things more closely balanced but still keeping some str gaps and randomness to it

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shppd does a good job at it

rocky niche
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i guess what i just meant is that when you have 100% chance to find something that guarantees success, it just ruins the vibe for me

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i enjoy the searching for loot aspect of roguelikes a lot

lament salmon
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well its not like the game cant be made harder

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with this change

waxen kiln
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but why change something that already works?

gritty moon
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it can

lament salmon
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like nerfing some artifacts or rings for being overpowered

gritty moon
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but ur change is trying to fix something that isnt broken

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its needless change

waxen kiln
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why engage in this arms race of balance changes?

gritty moon
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its also a lot of effort for something that doesnt need to change

lament salmon
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nothing has to

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well i said all i had to say, lets see if Evan himself ever considers it

gritty moon
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probs not

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very few things get consireded from here

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and even then ur idea rly messes with the design of shattered

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ecks dee

rocky niche
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if he did, he might make an easy difficulty and implement it there or smth

waxen kiln
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difficulties
ech

rocky niche
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oh yeah

waxen kiln
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they force you to essentially develop several different versions of the game

rocky niche
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trashbox

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@waxen kiln

waxen kiln
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what

gritty moon
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yeah

rocky niche
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you have blue name

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youre a dev right

gritty moon
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altho ur idea, zhen?

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does work in another pd

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yapd

rocky niche
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can we go to #coding i have questions

gritty moon
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that game has a guaranteed wand each chapter and it works out great

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but it also changes a fuck ton bout the game

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so thats why it works

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ex: u cna only upgrade items up to +3

waxen kiln
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such as reworking impossible into endless mode

gritty moon
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NOOO

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dont take away my impossible mode

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its so fuuun noooooooooooooooooo

vast vortex
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hi

gritty moon
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wlecome

vast vortex
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what is dis

void edge
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its like a thread

vast vortex
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thread collection

mild socket
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In my opinion food is only ever an issue with challenges, or in the early game only before Goo (certainly only before Tengu), and after that point is only an inventory waster used to trigger on-eat talents

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Suggestion: Nurishment from food should scale down at later depths

wind mortar
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how would you explain it tho

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stress?

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expanded stomach from leveling up?

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worse quality foods?

scenic juniper
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Hm. I never find Imp to make that much difference as I almost always have at least 1 ring and 3 rings/artifacts by that point, and sometimes it's a ring that really doesn't work with your build like Force with a Huntress or some such.

wind mortar
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still its a +2 at least

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its guaranteed identified

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and since succubi can drop transmutation scrolls

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you can just roll the wheel again

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if not its still 111 gold

scenic juniper
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Hm, I tend to like turning transmutation into 12x reroll potion/scroll. And like I say, usually I've already got something by then

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As for food, IMO food is mainly there as a way to stop you just running up and down stairs all the time. I do a fair bit of that and often run out of food by the lower levels. It's not a big problem but it does mildly drain healing effects