#rw ttrpg thread
1 messages · Page 3 of 1
but yeah
Because they're not fully thought out, and it'd be fun to learn in rp how they returned from the void.
there should be some sort of mechanism
to prevent you from turning the fire on and off multiple times per round
to circumvent the damage
because, that just doesnt really make much sense
and is pretty immersion breaking
ill work on it in a second
Autumn
Would you approve if I work on a fancy character sheet?
Instead of the excel sheet we have?
yeah
i would love that
Kk
Will work on it
mechanical and roleplay stuff should be on seperate pages though
or sections atleast
oh and make sure you have species traits, species adaptations, and normal adaps seperated (and probably room to explain what they do too)
oh yeah
other idea for a character
gourmand with spray
living machine gun
oh wait
I wanna get fancy designs drawn out first before I go into organization, and then you can help decide on organization after I get some designs.
1d6 - tolerance damage on spontaneous combustion
that makes it a lot more balanced.
Already thought of btw.
Yup, already thought of.
could also do a rivulet with fucking
rabies
just straight up
they have contracted rabies
anyways im gonna go to bed probably
My first thought was just making cool patterned borders like D&D papers have, but now I wanna do RW themed borders
make it themed after your character too
its gotta be universal
also i need a slugcat insult table
this is important for the lore
your mother was a dropwig, and your father, a pearl
goes hard
Can make slugcat themed ones later. Just for fun.
sure
you look like you left the void sea a little too early
character who tries to insult slugcats but keeps flirting
not even gourmand appreciates your excessive eating habits
did an iterator make you because youre like uh uh really strong and geneticallly perfect and awesome
tries insulting host, they roll low on comprehension and take it as a compliment
you look like you couldn't fight one SpongeBob, let alone 1,768,263,800,000
you like loser mice.
should i let the slugcats play a ttrpg in s&s
yes but you must write the rules in karma glyphs
Definitely.
Humans and Swords
Lol
Time to create a whole other ttrpg just to make an inception joke. Lmao
love naming slugcats i can make shit up on the fly
someone ask me to name 5 slugcats
what
I NEED YOU TO INEXPLICABLY GENERATE 5 SLUGCAT NAMES
RIGHT NOW
FOR NO PARTICULAR REASON HELP
i'll steal one of them
i mean, uh
HELP
leaf stone pond fish gum
two of those are being used in the campaign

stonefish
well the chances weren't that high to get them correct
1/5 chance then 1/4 chance
1/20 chance to get it by random chance alone
Could've gotten it right by rolling a d20. Lol
hey, i can't always roll a nat 20
look i have a slugcat with like maroon eyes its not a big deal

(still goes to fix it)
just kidding im not

the journal is plentiful
Indeed
the journs are plentifuyl
kind of wished that there was a way to show just pictures to the players when you give a character handout
and no they have a longer journal entry its not done yet
Artificer
actually
i can let players edit the notes
should they be the one filling them out instead
Simply multiple handouts. Lol
wdym
Complaining about only being able to send pictures. Simply have one with only picture.
oh yeah
:P
I don't wanna be at work for another hour 
ok this works
See
You're welcome.
just ignore the portraits all the time and we good
holy shit
rai nworld
oh yes right
for Session 1™️ we will not be using The List™️
ill just pick 2 people in particular
probably intikus and one other
i am not ready
why
busy and also being lazy
The list will be used for test runs.
For now
I have guaranteed Saturday off every week, so unless I have something else come up, I'll be free every session.
sweet
foxy answer the dm 
"dryskull"
ok some more insults
"shortteeth" could be a scav insult
"longteeth" could be used sarcastically for scavs
"can you even parry bro" could be another
"glass throw" hghgh
(like glass joe but, throw .. . loll!!!!)
(which in of itself is just a play on words for glass jaw)
"blinker" could be an insult used by younger ones
seeing as nervous scavs tend to blink more
these all go hard
"dulleyes" could be one for slugs
it doesnt really have much to do with anything but
im better at coming up with scavs insults apparently lol
"brighteyes" could actually be one for scavs
because low energy level scavs tend to have brighter coloration, apparently
i thought high energy scavs had yellow eyes but no
other way around
guess "boggler" could be another pretty comparable insult
though likely used when talking about somebody behind their back
"ay, you know dave? he's a real boggler. won't face even the weakest of lizards."
gonna have the scavs throw out all of these at once
yes
vicious mockery in slugcat no way (explosive)
(the troll)
idk if any traits other than nervous could be considered 'weak' in scav culture
other than empathy
maybe too high of energy could actually be considered problematic
so they would insult people both for being really unenergetic but also too energetic
though i feel like "slanter" doesnt sound very good
maybe dumber scavs might throw it out when they're out of ideas
like
eh no
"you're kid's such a slanter- you really might wanna get him under control"
i really dont know what would be used by scugs
because there's not much to go on culturally speaking
yes
hello slugcats i am preparing The List™️
@craggy pulsar i know you in particular wanted to join right
yeyeyeye
sweet
character creation well do then
@verbal ferry @magic oasis it was also you two who wanted to join right
yeah, though maybe put me at the bottom of the list
i just spin a wheel and remove names
i likely won't be very reliable in joining next week onwards
ah ok
ig bill nye then unless someone else asks to join today
the wheel agrees anyways
sweet
yes
as i said before character creation will be done session 0
fire guy
which is today
in like 4 hours
i'm gonna name him crackle
first session would be next week probably
he's gonna have some moss
and a couple rocks
for starting fires
in his inventory
oh ok
nice map
im pretty sure its a copypasta
still technically a test but it is designed to be a more coherent campaign
not just a one shot
Kk
im gonna work on converting lizard stats into rolls now
so black lizards what should their rolls be
are they gonna have substats?
or no
also wdym
like
chance to hit and stuff
versus resistances?
substats and main stats are the same for creatures
okok
mm
i mean knowledge should probably be like
-2
they cant see after all
and they're probably dumb
stupud dumb dumb idiot lizard
agreed there
Perception high
Hearing
they have advantage on perception checks relating to hearing already
Gotcha
i feel like uhh
maybe something to do with reaction times
like
weak to slidespearing
or hits to the throat
maybe easier to crit them
what about their agility then
mm
probably pretty high honestly
hard to see
after all
even despite their relative
lack of it
so maybe just +6
or no
+3
maybe even +2
yeah +2 seems better
their highest stat should likely be uhh
allure
seeing as they kinda cooperate
Can I bring another person into this if they're free?
who
same with muscle
My sibling
Wanna see if they want to join.
sure they can be on The List™️
Kk
theyll probably not be able to join till session 2 though since the 2 spots for s1 are full
i think +1 agility and +2 resistance fits fine
That's fine.
mm aight

My family are a bunch of nerds, so I figure I might as well bring them into this.
blue lizard
-3 resistance +2 agility
And I'm getting a handle on how to dm a session by playing with you guys, so eventually I'll be able to dm for them specifically.
more people that can dm is great since that means less dm burnout all around
Sibling has accepted being put on the list.

@ember sentinel
THE LIST

Might even get dad on the list.
maybe
aht about knowledege, muscle, and allure for blue liz
im think +1, -1, -1
Dad is a huge D&D nerd, and great at rp, so he'd be a valuable asset to this.
I'm sure he'd have wonderful ideas to help us too.
Gotta wait for him to wake up before I have any guarantees on him wanting to join.
ok i finished all lizard stats
check them out
Herb
sweet
herb
many
when the full doc is mostly finished, i think it'd be funny to name it spears and more slugcats
no we need an expansion named that
yes
Dad has chosen to watch over play
I will make sure to provide you many herb when I dm.
you shall have the herb
(gourmandful behaviour)
ok adap idea you can consume blessings for health regain
1 blessing 1 health
no
its an adap for anyone
but probably for the person playing host with their army of rotlings and creatures
wait holy shit host adap idea let me write this up
host sweep
@hushed bane 1 hostrillon damage per second
is there a save against this
its only on tamed creatures
oh woops
if, hypothetically, you manage to tame an iterator
yes
thanks
dc 30 check have fun finding a way to tame them
damn
usb with virus
i'll use a whip
"hello your computer has virĂśs"
and intimidation tactics
iterator: "nah im good its just a few slugcats"
gourmand with a comically large straw:
"watch out pebbles! theres More Slugcats Expansion coming your way!"
"What the fuck is tha-"
arti slams into fp at incredibly high speeds
I LOVE THIS
wait
are party members considered tamed creatures
if not can you tame a party member
s h r u g
can you start as anything this campaign?
i'd say probably
but i feel like taking over somebody else
would be considered pvp
ye
Was thinking "oh maybe they need something spesific to test out"
but eh
also what i have in mind
Drunken Gourmand
play a gourmand then
theyre cool
also we should probably get hunter downside done rn
what should the other part be
drunkenness will be fun to roleplay
I've convinced folks that I've had too many pints a fair few times 
yes
oh yeah
fair point
mm
i mean, maybe he could potentially get sick or something
vulnerability to hypothermia
idk
No, because you can defy other party members
party members aren't tamed, they just have a truce
a tamed creature can defy you

a tamed creature has a truce with you
it's just too stupid to understand what a truce is
it's like being neutral with scavengers
1984 gif
also because like
haha
As a player it's not fun to have no control over your actions
anyways for hunter
uhhh. . .
i mean
i dont know what would work without just
shutting down potential builds
hunter drawbacks?
i think it might just be a bit of a cursed problem to begin with
cause if you want to be accurate to the source material... hunter really has no drawbacks
cancer
they have the illness, but it's unlikely enough time will pass before that has any effect
unless you want to buff that illness and make it always be in effect, but then i think hunter would become pretty bad
you could make something with how they can't find karma flowers at all, take that and maybe expand that to work more with the lore
something about karma was the original idea
originally -4 blessings but thats a bit ehhh no since theres a chance they have no uses for you
make dying more risky as hunter
great stats for head to head combat, but dying can potentially lead to much worse outcomes
no permadeath, but like
youre unable to connect with your past selves or something
what about the injury table?
death is made more punishing through the injury table
can adjust it anyways if it ends up being too harsh or not harsh enough
just now thought that hunter could maybe take extra damage when damaged?
glass cannon type thingy
So either :
Every death, apply 2 injuries intead of 1
OR
Every 2nd death, apply 2 injuries instead of 1
following up on that
you know how 5p can't cure hunter's turbocancer?
make injuries harder to cure on hunter
we dont have rules on exactly how you cure injuries really so nah
i think just more does that already
lessen the healing hunter receives
either by a percentage, or by a flat dice roll (cannot go below 1 healing)
i just think more injuries is enough
yeah no
having extra uh
healing loss
is bad
for something that's meant to be a fighter
maybe they should have problems in subjects not relating to fighting?
i genuinely think weakness to getting sick could be interesting.
hypothermia and what not
i think more injuries is a good idea
are there rules on what happens for sickness?
odds are you get a non combat one
dm discression
i feel like
weakness to poison, sickness, ecetera
would be less likely to stack overtime
and become unplayable
mm fair
most are non combat
the odds you get the same injury twice already is incredibly slim
yeah
tbh with how skewed the injuries are away from combat
i think it's kinda funny how the more injuries hunter gets, the more they have to hard spec into combat p much
because on average they'll get decreases in non-combat stats more than what they need for violence
0.25% chance they get the same injury twice in two rolls
1/20 x 1/20
1/400
how i be showing up to the slug meeting with -5 knowledge, -5 comprehension, -5 perception, and -5 allure
yeah that's correct
you do not need brain
brain's only use is tell arm to throw spear
(counts as a conventional weapon)
naming slugcats like the passage symbols is too hard because then you have to come up with a name that sounds like an achievement
thank you autumn for reminding me earlier that naming slugcats after inanimate (or animate) objects is good too
how i handle it is that the species is named like an achievment, but individual slugcat names are just random things
oh fair enough
tldr if an enby would name themselves that its a valid slugcat name
wo
(replace the green with white because it's cheese)
ok so uh
@hushed bane @regal mulch @warped ice @craggy pulsar @verbal ferry i realize i have session 1 completely prepped and done already
do you want to do both session 0 and 1
I'm down.
lemme see if i can get fizzy's attention if that didnt work [im down aswell]
Will be voiceless through a bit of session 0 prolly, or be late. One of them.
Yup
As soon as my internet fixes itself and shit
Also after I’ve finished my character 
OH I GOTTA MAKE MY CHARACTER THEN AAA
Skill issue
yeah thats why session 0 [i think]
we weill be doing that duirng the sesison
Also this is the big character
its fine
oh right intikus and bill the way the campaign is gonna work
Session 0 Fizzy, we'll all be making characters today
Together
oh okay
every session we rotate out 2 people (those being intikus and bill nye) and pick 2 random people from The List™️
where is The List™️ is it a list we can read
basically my solution to everyone wanting to play but not being able to dm like 10 people
google docs
The List™ prolly isn't finished yet too.
this is the list for now
fair
Checking who'll be stabbed tonight
Session 0 is character creation. Session 1 is when the campaign starts.
So yes
yeah
the gourd
Hope ur able to weave the rotation finely into the narrative ;)
Autumn will let us know our character levels and what not in session 0.
i should be able to
ig
im here now
though im pretty hungry
would drywall be a fitting name
or
eh
got a better idea
uhm. . .
i actually dont know how to add extra boxes to google sheets

well ill be in ampitheatre since we are about to start
oh yeah baby artificer time
hi :)
i will join Soon™️
hello hi
autumn i will take the first step to actually making a character and actually copy the character sheet
@craggy pulsar 
@warped ice fat man
Mate what?
vc
a bomb maker
My discord is fucking up im sorry
I’m gonna restart my whole pc and see if that fixes it
name them pocket I.C.B.M
pocket ICBM is SO GOOD THOUGH
dude you NEED to try it with plasma shrimp
ATG vs plasma shrimp is just character dependant
but regardless, pocket ICBM literally triples damage output from missiles
@regal mulch what level do characters start at?
1
o ya can you ask if someone can stream for it @regal mulch
Omw home, be there in 10 mins.
Autumn character level?
1
@regal mulch
Kk
We already have someone making a gourm correct?
yes
Imma play Riv.
i may create a spearmaster
can't decide between them and monk for if i get selected another time
@regal mulch can i wiggleflight?
@regal mulch can scavengers fly like they can ingame?
scavengers don't wigglefly
they just spontaneously gain vertical momentum
also still need someone to stream so peeps can watch
I can when I get to the house.
thank
spearmaster it is
@regal mulch one gabriellion copies
if you play as spearmaster and take the overstuffed cheeks ability
does this allow you to store items
@craggy pulsar they go yellow
white -> yellow
@regal mulch when assigning the 10 points at level one, are those applied to stats or substats?
o
@warped ice they're more known to eat snails
okie
terrible idea i'm keeping for later
gourmand machinegun build
overstuffed cheeks + spray
you can decide to do 5d8 damage
THATS AN INCREDIBLE IDEA WHAT DO YOU MEAN
yeah but
you destroy the items immediately
the real question is if it works with bile
because if it does, then you do
5d8 physical + 5d4 + 5 acid damage on a full spray
took a sample roll, and it did fourty one damage
Bill - Red Arti (Crevice)
Foxy - Green Riv (Toad)
Fizzy - Grey Gourm (Joe)
Intikus - Orange Gourm (Ethan)
Bot - Orange Headpieces Hunter (Tomahawk)
Here, now it won't get buried in ampi chat.
FUN
yipee
wooot woot
i have been thinking of spearmaster builds
i cant wait to lose my arm :)
spearmaxxing
combat ready to hold 3 spears at once
cycle through all of the calcified spears
@regal mulch i have a question about spearmaster's violent separation adaptation
yeah
it says you "rupture" all your spears
yeah
does this mean you destroy them?
yep
so, you delete them from the map and get to make 3 new ones
yes
i enjoy body language
Toad, too stupid to talk. Lol
at least they have a mouth-
its fine you would still be alive
also i would like to note for anyone making a homebrew species
@warped ice in particular
just use blessings instead of battery
say you have like +24 blessings
My homebrew is still very WIP as I haven't been actively working on it. 
okeh
It will also take advantage of blessings btw Autumn.
sweet
Was originally going to use them even before you decided we might get rid of them.
honestly someone should try this build lmao
tomorrow i will think of a personality proper and story
ok
well im bored so
im gonna make another character im probably not gonna use
'fourfold the nightcat'
hi
you available saturday 2pm pst
almost
i might be late that day
i become free on saturday at roughly 1-2 PM, but no guarantees
mm
these are the stats i've made so far
as you can see, i like throwing
i'm unsure whether or not to use level 1 or level 2 stats (since the party did level up) so i do have stat dists ready for both scenarios
hope though is that with more adaptations, will be able to specialize further
i swapped allure and agility in the stats and actions section
to keep the mental and physical stats seperated
wha
basically nothing changed
except some formating
also two adaps
fire hands and frost hands for blessings
K
im playing rainworld rn
doing shaded citadel without a lantern on line of sight mod
Hell
how should these work though
actually even more importantly we should probably finsih slugcats first
@ember sentinel @magic oasis sorry for the ping again what slugcats do you wanna paly
spearmaster
ok good theyre done
I will get back to you with that soon
have you played RW before btw?
Ive played a small portion with lilfoxyperson
good enough
we are going to spoil the entire game
Ah thats fine
we are also going to spoil what slugcat says to the other slug cat
he says "it's time to rain world"
i have added so much non canon shit you wont be able to understand whats in game and not dw
autumn can we add the fog demons
no

OK QUESTION ABOUT LAST CAMPAIGN
SO I WAS LOOKING OVER THE MAPS FOR DESIGN INSPIRATION
yes?
did you forget to bring it with them as they changed maps?
cause i think the most likely thing that happened was that they just left it in that room
i dont think i ever said the iterator destroyed it or anything
they don't have it with them in this screenshot, and they went directly from the iterator's place to the final area before the void
so i think they did just leave it there
making the most banger battlemap rn
personality!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
AMO
Autumn why
Lmao
it was an accident
i promise it isnt filtration system
number like
17
ok.
all the better to climb through
they count in binary on their fingers
they need to count in binary so they can count how many slug the cat do they
91?
i think...
i might be wrong though
lemme do a doublecheck online
yeah 91 is incorrect
it's much higher
118
1 + 4 + 16 + 32 + 64
no, that's not right either
63
i believe with binary a slugcat could count up to uhhh
1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + 16 + 32
i just manually did it
i'm not very good with binary
it's fine
i would say i'm non-binary, but i'm not enby so i can't make that joke
other systems are weird to think about
they could also use 3 state finger binary
or
which is not the right word but it gets the point across
maybe like
if they were to develop actual math
base 6
while binary is used for most practical purposes
yeah theyd use base 6 for any actual math but binary for general use
not all civilizations developed base 10!
what if they count in the number of toe beans they have
like really really fucking good compared to most other systems
what if they dont have any
what if they do
that would be awesome
that would be so cool
a slugcat that is fearless, but not through any real bravery
but rather because they're not good at telling what's dangerous or not
with that though i should probably take points out of perception and into will, maybe
maybe knowledge
instead of perception
perception is moreso just noticing things
not figuring out what they are
my knowledge is zero now
were adding bungus how will it work
if you skip your turn you get healed for 1 health
Yes.
Spend an action to bungus.
Spend a food pip to bungus for 1 turn.
yes
1 food pip to heal 1 hp to you and everyone around you
i would add another minor effect but its already pretty good
ok now make it an actual adaptation :)
You have achieved a strange sort of symbiotic relationship with a restorative fungus sensitive to movement. It can only produce its spores while still, absorbing some nutrition from its host in the process.
While idle, you may choose to spread healing spores that restore 1 HP to yourself and allies within melee distance, at the cost of 1 food pip.
bungus with 2 players
wungus
You have achieved a strange sort of symbiotic relationship with a restorative fungus sensitive to movement. It can only produce its spores while at high speed, It absorbs some nutrition from its host in the process, however its heavier spores prevent its effects from benefiting anyone other than the host.
When you roll using agility, you may choose to spread healing spores that restore 2 HP to yourself, at the cost of 1 food pip. Cannot affect other creatures.
Love it
ok i think i know how to make adaptations
pick your favorite game item and just blatantly steal it
we could also reflavor the bungus to cost blessings
Simply bungus spell
Bringing back rites to everyone.
it would be an adap
since this is pretty good
4 x PM x APM to 12 x PM x APM health
PM being party members
APM being party members with the adap
so an average party (5 members) at level 1 would get up to 20 health if only one person had it
and at level 10 it would be 60 health
should it be 2 blessings per heal then?
You're going to have to explain that math a little more. Brain is exploding.
How much healing per member?
Or how much healing does each member get?
how much total healing
across the whole party
each member would only get 4 to 12 healing
I figured it would just be a set healing number for each person.
which by itself isnt broken but full party might be super good
and we might want to limit this to saint but edited
maybe just like
Saint is missing their species adaps
you can place a thing for blessings that you can use an action to heal everyone nearby
So it'd be good for that.
yeah
healing totem basically
You talked about Saint being support, so it'd be a good ability for them.
i think how itd work is something along the lines of like
you can expend up to all of your blessings and heal everyone nearby equal to that much
moving it takes an action, getting rid of it takes an action, but placing it you can heal at the same time
to keep the idea of positioning
or we could just have it center on you to compliment your mobility
i like the wungus a lot will make a great adap
and could also allow a lot of other adap ideas
"doing X action lets you do X thing"
actually idea for saint
basically give them the guidance cantrip from dnd
let them use an action to add a d4 to someone elses attack roll
no cost
if anything that should be their default
monk could get the exact opposite instead
d4 to next reaction
could also be will instead of d4
I forget, who is the 3rd permanent member @regal mulch? Intikus?
other autumn
botmancer
Bot gotcha
what do you think about my saint idea though
Monk was defense Saint was support, correct?
Autumn
What check would you use to land spitting acid
@regal mulch
finesse probably
and yes thats right
That's what I thought
Then yeah, I guess it's good.
d4 is pretty strong
but you cant attack at all
i think its fine
since its worse than just 2 attacks most of the time
we could also add a combat option
say like
expend blessings when you attack someone with your fists or tounge to deal additional damage
1 blessing 1 damage
jedi mind tricks
while making any allure related check, you may wave your hand as you speak
this will immediately force the check to succeed. Works once per cycle
(do not add this, it's horribly overpowered)
imagine having one that lets you xray through walls
since karma lets you go past barriers in the base game
What
new adaptation /j
sandbox
once per session, you may control a sandbox overseer
you can do anything
for one turn
okok i think i got an idea for how it'd work
pretty much
you see a plane shaped area infront of you
as in a 2d plane
you may observe it for a few seconds
and may change the lighting as you please.
the plane may be rotated in any way you want
and essentially
you see the space contained inside of it
distance from you is essentially vertical in this form of vision
ie: further away objects appear higher up
while left and right are simply for the axis purpendicular to distance
this could potentially let you accidentally do shit like see the organs of enemies
call them
-rays
ok uh
i have now come up with a very dumb idea
converting that effect into a poison of sorts
produced by an enemy idea
'feather moss'
go on
it has 7 tiers of poison upon either touching or consuming it.
(it can float to move around btw)
first tier simply causes your vision to go all rainbowy and melty, causing disadvantage on perception checks.
tier 2 is where it gets interesting.
your vision phases through objects
meaning you see things in 3d.
as if you were a 4d being.
tier 3 makes it so at the start of any 'turn', you have to flip a coin
you either get advantage or disadvantage against any moving objects or creatures
because your perception of time gets warped.
also you can nolonger reliably keep track of time
tier 4 gives you disadvantage on all mental checks, due to a splitting headache.
tier 5 makes it so that whenever you perform an action, you must make a check or the action just fails
tier 6 adds damage onto the penalty
and tier 7 just kills you instantly
these things are literally just fuzzies from yoshi's island except they make you see into the 4th dimension and then melt your brain
this could be a really neat adap idea
just this part
also yeah the entire point of this thing is to encourage putting points in will
spitter spiders ig
well this thing produces poison
maybe bigspiders or wormgrass?
we dont know if they use poison or not
probablyn ot
what do we call the wungus adap
mm
regenerative fungi
or spores
like he suggested
but uhh
if it was actually, a name. . .
recovery spores?
maybe fungal recovery
or fungal healing
fungal healing could work!
also
tbh all the dungeons felt a little, samey
i feel like maybe areas of extreme darkness versus light
or more flora
could really add a lot
itll show up at some point
right
i had another somewhat simpler poisonous flora idea
stinkleaf
purplish wide flowers which unleash toxic upwards travelling spores upon being exposed to loud noise
would generally be found in big pits and what not
so making too much sound risks taking a lot of damage
because inhaling the spores causes, damage
based on tolerance of course
tbh i feel like the defensive stats need a bit more use
same with allure
(although that might just be our playstyle!)
defensive stats are well
used every time you make a reaction
so theyre kind of important
tolerance/will are more build based
mm ok




