wiki-debate

[zinc violet]

<@&400756967674609674> hello all i've mentioned it in the main chat, but to recap: there are a number of subjects regarding the wiki i'd like for us to discuss/debate due to their highly subjective nature making it hard for any one person to make a decision on them. this thread is for discussing these subjects in a confined, focused space separate from the main chat

there is no pressure to join or contribute to these discussions, but the more voices we have the better the solutions we can settle on will be, and i would encourage you to share your thoughts no matter how big or small

whilst active discussion is always good, you are free to send your thoughts at any time for others to see, so don't feel like you have to reserve your thoughts for when people are actively talking. the only rules for this thread are that you don't excessively/intentionally derail the current matter of debate or go off topic

all debates will be started with a debate starter presenting the topic, points in favour of and against the subject (updated as the debate progresses), and will be pinned for ease of reference post-debate. debates will end once we have reached a conclusion the majority of participants agrees with

if you have any questions or suggestions for debates feel free to ping me in #wiki or DM me about them

i'll start us off with a simpler topic

Topic: Usage of fan-made arena style icons for inline icons and info/navboxes
Points in favour of:

• Visual reference is useful for people (especially new) who may not know the name of the name listed for creatures and objects
• Visually pleasing; lack of icons for creatures without them is very noticeable
• Fan-made visuals and graphics are already used across the wiki
  Points against:
• Potentially misleading, especially given many people do use wikis as image repositories
• Concerns about quality consistency
  Further questions:
• If implemented, how would we go about distinguishing them from canon icons?
  Solution: Fan-made icons will be used, with clarification on their non-canon nature in image descriptions and on the Arena page
  Participants: Gwyn, Kip, Jev, MM, Klen, Wand, Candle, LB, Casheww

[steady bridge]

Are there any others?

[zinc violet]

guardians

proto-dlls and blls

[upper trench]

proto D/BLLs dont really need an icon do they?

[zinc violet]

to give an idea of what they would look like, here's some i made a while ago

[upper trench]

as long as the artstyle of the fan made icons match the in game one, im ok with it

those are weird to me

Karma flower could just be the that appears in the map where you left your on death karma flower

[strange plank]

well i see 3 potential end possibilites:

• we don't use icons. this leaves us with quite a few creatures/objects with no associated icon
• we ask the devs (videocult OR msc) if they've made or could make icons for these. however, this could be rude if done the wrong way
• we make custom icons (they MUST match vanilla style)

[zinc violet]

but that wouldnt be consistent with the other arena icons

[steady bridge]

A suggestion to build on there is that we could use for karma flowers and for popcorn plants

if we really wanted to go down that route

[upper trench]

why ?

[steady bridge]

newer players associate with max karma, and might be better for Guardians

if we did want to use existing symbols for those three

[zinc violet]

i feel like that doesnt make much sense given they dont really visually represent the things in question and would also clash with the style of the other arena icons

plus is already used as a spoiler symbol

[steady bridge]

We could recolour then?

make it red?

[upper trench]

we could, but that would look like a guardian

[zinc violet]

i feel like new players might interpret that as a more threatening spoiler icon

[steady bridge]

Like you say, it is already used as a spoiler symbol but a red one is accurate

[strange plank]

imo we'd need to make vanilla-esque icons

but that obviously runs the risk of decieving new players

[steady bridge]

I'd also say that isn't really a bad thing as a side effect, guardians are pretty close to the end of the game right

[final grove]

That's because you delete slugcat from this template

[zinc violet]

that is a fair point

i still believe it would clash with the other arena icons though

especially when they're all laid out next to each other

[upper trench]

well, we already broke this rule by using an exclamation mark for echoes
why not using the in game "echo" icon at least?

[zinc violet]

oh, we'd also need moon and 5p icons too

[final grove]

Yellow is better for karma flower

[pine wind]

personally im all for using fan made icons if we can get the style to match any vanilla stuff! we already have a few, in a way, with the slugcat head icon and lizards icon. obviously those are derived from something already in-game, but you get what i mean
as kip said, im uncertain about using karma symbols? the is already used as the icon for a link leading to something end-game related, especially if we were to make it yellow as seen on the map. using karma for other things like guardians and popcorn plants would clash pretty badly with the existing icons

[strange plank]

of course, the Parity Patch or Downpour might actually add these icons too! it might be valuable to ask

[steady bridge]

this is the difficulty with having existing icons used for spoilers :S

That makes sense wand

[upper trench]

[strange plank]

imo i am COMPLETELY against using custom icons on the wiki

[zinc violet]

i would personally recolour it to be moon's colours or the blank "white" like most arena icons are

[upper trench]

that would make the infoboxes straigh spoiler machines

[steady bridge]

but surely that would clash with the existing spoiler icon in the same way that would?

[zinc violet]

not really? its in a similar style to the arena icons

let me make an example, hold on

[steady bridge]

how do you feel about custom icons mm?

[strange plank]

ok i really see 5 options here

1. ask videocult/Downpour devs if they've made official icons
2. don't use custom icons whatsoever

a - make custom icons that are recolors of the overseer icons we have already
b - make vanilla-style icons
c - use the clashing ones we have now

[final grove]

What is my opinion
Idk why did you remove slugcat from intext spoiler. We deside that only icon not seems like spoiler, just icon. So, it's better to get back slugcat in intext spoiler. Yellow is for karma flower because it is already in game. Guardian icon can be its head with red on it

[zinc violet]

for 3a) that only applies to moon

[strange plank]

the slugcat is too large to fit into the intext spoiler for the image to show what the slugcat is doing with clarity

[pine wind]

i think the slugcat was removed from there because it was blurry, clashed with the style of the other spoiler icons, and wasn't all that eye catching

[final grove]

We don't even try to make in not blurry

[strange plank]

the slugcat works with the spoiler BANNERS because the banners have enough vertical and horiontal space to work

[zinc violet]

having an entire slugcat in the text is very disruptive to the reading experience imo

[strange plank]

moon's teal looks SLIGHTLY off i think?

[upper trench]

actually looks nice

in fact it doesnt look like a robot if you dont know its a robot

[pine wind]

i also think the color's slightly off, lovely work on that though!

[zinc violet]

yeah i was spitballing the colours, will update with more accurate ones if we settle on them

[steady bridge]

which intext spoiler slugcat are we talking about here?

[strange plank]

the one used in the spoiler banner

[zinc violet]

but inline w/ text

[steady bridge]

oh I see

[final grove]

No!

[ancient hinge]

Reminder that if we want it to match the usual style icons can only use one color and black, with one additional defined shade.

[zinc violet]

ye

[steady bridge]

I thought klen meant the overseer icon?

[final grove]

I talking about cropped one!

No legs and tail

[strange plank]

still clashed stylistically imo

[steady bridge]

My main concern with custom icons would be that potential clash

I think balancing level of detail with the "chunkiness" and simplicity that vanilla icons have would be quite difficult

[zinc violet]

im experienced with pixel art so i think i got pretty close to them

let me uhhh

[steady bridge]

worth a try for sure :D

[zinc violet]

send some side by side

[steady bridge]

I think the popcorn plant suits the best :D

could see that being used almost as is?

[pine wind]

that popcorn plant one looks nice
good stuff

[pine wind]

oh! and i meant to ask
what's the point about potentially misleading players exactly? im not sure i fully understand that one

[zinc violet]

it could potentially mislead them into thinking that these icons are present in the game

[upper trench]

hold on why grey?

[zinc violet]

because thats what the rest of the arena icons look like

[upper trench]

no?

[upper trench]

they have colors

[zinc violet]

either that or one colour

[upper trench]

hmm

[zinc violet]

im already bending it a bit by giving moon her forehead spot

[pine wind]

yeah if you want a highlight like moon's symbol or the guardian's cross without it clashing it's best to keep the rest grey

[zinc violet]

i did make a colour version of the guardians too though

[steady bridge]

to my mind the double lines on the guardian head do seem a little complex for such a small icon

have you tried a thicker single border?

[upper trench]

why not making moon's forehead spot empty and making her whole icon blue?

[zinc violet]

hmmm

[steady bridge]

(colour does look nice there for sure)

[upper trench]

moon eyes are small enough to avoid confusing it with 3 eyes

[ancient hinge]

Since colors are mostly used in cases where they're needed to tell apart some otherwise identical icons I think it would apply to Moon and Pebbles And I'm not sure about the red highlights.

[pine wind]

i see. and what would the harm in that be exactly? sorry if these are stupid questions

[zinc violet]

not at all, dont apologise! wikis are generally meant to reflect their subject as accurately as possible, and as mentioned people do use wikis as image repositories so if people start saving and spreading these images thinking that they are canon, there could be a lot of people who expect them to be in the game and may potentially get disappointed when they arent

[ancient hinge]

Just like we had to do some research ourselves to distinguish the canon lizard icons from the fanmade ones.

[steady bridge]

LOL

[zinc violet]

yep, for the alpha icons

the black, salamander and cyan ones are completely fanmade

[steady bridge]

updated is a lot nicer btw idk if I ever said

[zinc violet]

i redrew them for the version that's on the wiki

(ty )

[steady bridge]

kip you're a genius

RE: asking videocult/downpour about icons; I don't believe we'd hear anything back there

NDAs are NDAs no matter which way you look at them

[zinc violet]

yeah

[upper trench]

kip is a master

[steady bridge]

We're also basically waiting for an indefinite time period then, both to get a response and then for release

[zinc violet]

i think if the icons for the ones we're missing did exist theyd a) be in the ui atlas b) already be used for the beastmaster mod

[steady bridge]

To what extent do we feel the missing icons are important?

is it a particularly noticeable inconsistency?

[zinc violet]

that, and i think the visual aspect for people who may not know the english or canon names is important

especially given a lot of creatures and objects may have different names (e.g. coalescipedes)

its not immediately obvious from looking at the guardians that that's what they are called

[steady bridge]

very good point :0

based on the effort involved I would suggest we try a red out at first

[zinc violet]

but why start with that when we already have icons made by me ready to go?

speaking of which, fp

[steady bridge]

I'm still not fully sold on the guardian icon yet

[zinc violet]

ah that's fair

[pine wind]

i see! okay, that makes sense
we still do use at least one fanmade icon that could potentially mislead someone though, and that hasn't really been an issue has it
talking about the exclamation mark which resembles iggy's holograms, and is used as the default spoiler icon. sure, someone could think that it's something that iggy actually displays in game, but i really dont think it'd go farther than that? especially to the extent of people being disappointed over the ❗ not being in game
of course that's a little different than fan-made icons for creatures & objects.
but i still do believe that the benefit of the visual clarity and consistency across other creatures and objects is far greater than the (arguably not that massive) risk of a large amount of people believeing that an icon is something in-game

[steady bridge]

I'm just thinking that we may as well try out the simplest and most vanilla-faithful option first and see how it looks around the wiki, in use

[final grove]

Whats about his yellow .. eyebrows ..?

[zinc violet]

he doesnt have any

[zinc violet]

[pine wind]

yeah its only something seen in some grafitti in the files, that's why some people choose to add it when drawing pebbles

[steady bridge]

hey that looks alright :o

the border is good, nice and solid like the others

you've sold me lol

[zinc violet]

[pine wind]

i like it too! you can tell what it is and its fairly consistent with other icons, good stuff :>

[steady bridge]

yeah absolutely :D nicely done

[zinc violet]

the icons are barely even 50x50px so its very quick and easy to make and edit em

[steady bridge]

ok, then guardians seems great :D

Quick ask kip, what sort of pace do you want these things to go at?

Discussions I mean?

[zinc violet]

hmmmmm

[steady bridge]

Do you want us to agree on an overall strategy and then split off (thread for icons/tweaking discussion in #wiki & start next topic here)

[zinc violet]

[steady bridge]

or would you like us to focus on the details, getting every icon right etc, in this channel?

[zinc violet]

i think another thread would be fine for that, since the topic is moreso about deciding whether we should use them or not in the first place

[strange plank]

thread should be renamed then

[zinc violet]

no, we'll make a new thread for it

[final grove]

He is same size with other icons, see?

[zinc violet]

if you all think we've adequately discussed the topic then we should hold a vote on it then unless anyone else has more points to bring up?

[pine wind]

pretty much said everything here!

[steady bridge]

@strange plank how do you feel about using this icon for guardians?

[steady bridge]

definitely as long as fanmade content is consistent and we agree on it then that's the main thing

that tradeoff is always ours to make, as long as we're proud of the content on the site then we're all good

[zinc violet]

i agree

and if it ends up causing too much confusion or anything we can always remove them

actually wait before we vote we should probably discuss the further question - how should we, if at all, distinguish them from canon icons? include "fan-made" in their image page descriptions?

[steady bridge]

I can't imagine that many non wiki users going "hey the guardian icon isn't in the arenaicon pack"

[pine wind]

yeah

"whuh where is my worm grass icon "

[steady bridge]

definitely

lol

[pine wind]

definitely! that sounds like the best we can do for distinction

[steady bridge]

final thought would be that I'm happy adding fanmade icons as long as we're happy with them and feel they're up to standard

[zinc violet]

oh boy my art is going to be under a lot of scrutiny lol

[steady bridge]

hahaha I was gonna say

definitely will aim to be clear when we're talking about that, your art is great no matter what kip

[pine wind]

seriously though your art is great kip
really glad you can provide us with all this lovely visual stuff to add

[upper trench]

kip, stop being useful, you are hoarding all the usefulness in the planet

[zinc violet]

[steady bridge]

it's tough and admirable matching an existing style and we'll do everything we can to help guide you there >:)))

[pine wind]

so now that we've somewhat agreed on this, the next thing is making a thread for icon creation right?
so that we can provide feedback as they're made and get them looking the most accurate we can

[zinc violet]

yos yos

[zinc violet]

1- candle is still typing their thoughts, let's wait for them
2- we'll hold a proper vote via reactions after that

[pine wind]

sounds good

[zinc violet]

i guess it's a good thing i already gave it a shot a while ago since im relatively acquainted with it now

[steady bridge]

what are we thinking options wise?

[ancient hinge]

Maybe add a note in the Arena page too, since most canon icons come from there? I imagine it could already be worth mentioning as a piece of trivia how some things that aren't in arena still have an icon, so this could fit as well.

[steady bridge]

for sure

[zinc violet]

probably a binary yes fanmade icons no fanmade icons since i cant really think of any inbetween choices

that sounds good candle

too many icons

[steady bridge]

use jevdizzy for noodleflies

mm has vanished I was curious what they had to say

[zinc violet]

reduced to atoms

[pine wind]

ascended

[zinc violet]

[final grove]

May I please have a word?

[pine wind]

of course!
sorry for not replying to this message earlier, meant to but the convo went by

[soft canopy]

This icon doesn't match the vanilla style because it's using two different colors.

[final grove]

what are the objections to this?

[zinc violet]

im aware

[steady bridge]

I believe we felt that the slugcat was unnecessary?

[soft canopy]

All vanilla icons are fully white then colored with code.

[zinc violet]

yos

[soft canopy]

Aight

[pine wind]

yeah the general objection is just that the slugcat's not necessary

[soft canopy]

I'd make it just grey.

[zinc violet]

we'll be fine-tuning the icons anyway, so as long as the basic look of it is fine then that's good for me

[steady bridge]

I'd also add perhaps that the slugcat is an in-game crop which is obviously cut at the body; it doesn't look as clean as the standalone icons

[pine wind]

yea that too! the icons are all nice and full while the slugcat clashes styalistically with both the look and cut off

[steady bridge]

If it was a discord emote we'd have removed it long ago in favour of something handdrawn like this -

[strange plank]

personally i think it should be a darker gray, similarly to the black lizard and black squidcada icons

[zinc violet]

that's doable too

right then, let's vote

[soft canopy]

Make the X not red.

It feels weird.

[zinc violet]

we'll make a thread for finetuning them

[soft canopy]

Or make the whole icon red, just one color.

[zinc violet]

as long as the general concept is fine

[soft canopy]

I see

[zinc violet]

1️⃣ - In favour of fan-made icons
2️⃣ - Against fan-made icons

[pine wind]

agreed on that! non red sounds good, especially since that's what you see in game when they're not aggro'd

as kip said that's for the icon thread

[zinc violet]

i think 4 votes makes that a majority since we had 8 participants

[soft canopy]

gwyn doesn't know lol

[soft canopy]

yes

[pine wind]

good enough confirmation to start work on them i'd say

[soft canopy]

For absolute majority, we need 5 on 8 tho

[pine wind]

they're quick to make anyway so no harm done either way

[ancient hinge]

Me neither

[soft canopy]

5 on 8 done

[steady bridge]

as a small side point0

[zinc violet]

yos?

[steady bridge]

https://static.miraheze.org/rainworldwiki/e/e1/Noodlefly_Egg_icon.png

[zinc violet]

[steady bridge]

https://static.miraheze.org/rainworldwiki/6/62/Bubble_Fruit_icon.png

It's not like the icons are necessarily amazing works of art

We're just used to them

[violet raptor]

I think fan icons are fine if we signpost it

[steady bridge]

There's no reason why kip or any of us can't design icons that fit in; it will just take tweaking and some time to adjust

[zinc violet]

don't worry, we're planning to

[steady bridge]

We know they're fanmade so we'd yeah, be naturally applying a lot of scrutiny to them, unlike the noodlefly egg icon or anything

[zinc violet]

it will be in the image descriptions of any fan-made ones and we'll also include a trivia point on the arena page since that's where they're all laid out

[steady bridge]

so yeah I think that's ok

[zinc violet]

[steady bridge]

we may well also have this entire point swept away come downpour haha, who knows

[zinc violet]

we'll see!

alright, let's make a new thread for the icons

[soft canopy]

more threads

[zinc violet]

yes

[violet raptor]

Wouldn't using this chat and then making another if there are other issues to discuss make more sense

[steady bridge]

I'd also say that since we do have existing community-created assets on the wiki, it's yknow, something we've definitely been comfortable with before- and that we've been happy with up to now

[zinc violet]

there are other issues to discuss

[violet raptor]

That way icon stuff is all in one thread

[zinc violet]

like, 5 more

and one of those is the lore debate

[soft canopy]

Oof

I'm not going for this one

[zinc violet]

understandable

[steady bridge]

[soft canopy]

plomp

[zinc violet]

right, making the icon thread and then i'll start the next topic

[steady bridge]

no rush to perfect the icons either, we'll have plenty of time to hammer out the fine details :D

although kip is a fast drawer

[soft canopy]

[zinc violet]

<@&400756967674609674>
Topic: Keep subregion pages separate or consolidate with main region pages?
Current Implementation on Wiki: Most subregion pages are separate from their main region pages (Depths, Filtration System, LTTM, Memory Crypts, The Leg, The Wall, Underhang (incorrectly named "The Underhang ") whereas others are not. The aim of this debate is to swing the balance in favour of one or the other
Points in favour of:

• Helps break up key gameplay sections to prevent spoilers
• Potentially gives some more room for elaboration
  Points against:
• Many of the existing separate subregion pages are stubs/do not contain a particularly substantial amount of information
• Keeping everything related to the regions in one place is much tidier, and makes it easier for people to plan routes through regions
• Concerns about people being unable to find subregions by searching can simply be solved with redirects
  Further questions:
• If we consolidate subregions with their main region pages, should we allow them to be visible in the table of contents? This is currently also inconsistent across the region pages (may lead into a further debate about spoilers across the wiki)
  Solution: Subregion pages will be consolidated into their ancestor regions.
  Participants: Kip, Jevmen, Eight Frogs, Gwyn, Casheww, Klen, Wand, Wild, Candle, Acanthus

[upper trench]

se already talked about that during the migrations

[zinc violet]

i remember yes

[tacit hemlock]

I wanted to suggest that myself

[zinc violet]

but we never reached a definitive conclusion on it

[upper trench]

subregions that differenciate themselves enough from the main region should have their own page

[zinc violet]

or if we did we never actually executed it

[upper trench]

thats it

[steady bridge]

So which subregions are those specifically, that we feel differentiate themselves sufficiently, Jev?

[zinc violet]

also, just because we decided that back then doesnt mean we can change our minds now

all of the separate page subregions are listed (oh oops )

[upper trench]

the ones we have already
memory crypts
filtration system
looks to the moon (for lore reasons)
depths

[zinc violet]

pretty much only communications array and the 5P subregions are integrated to their own main pages

[tacit hemlock]

I also think the wall should have it's own page

[upper trench]

yeah because comms array is too small

and 5P is all subregions

[tacit hemlock]

It's very different from the exterior

[upper trench]

also exterior

exterior has unique pages too

iirc

[tacit hemlock]

Also iirc the exterior is also made out of subregions

[upper trench]

so is essentially all except FP and Comms array

so yeah

we should like

oh wait

are they individual pages?

[zinc violet]

yes

[upper trench]

then bring em together?

[zinc violet]

https://rainworld.miraheze.org/wiki/Filtration_System

heres an example of what im talking about

[tacit hemlock]

Yeah but it wasn't updated in a while and has a relatively low quality

[upper trench]

exterior is split or together?

[tacit hemlock]

Both

[zinc violet]

exterior entirely split up

[upper trench]

lol

[tacit hemlock]

Oh you mean ingame

I thought you were talking about the wiki page

[zinc violet]

which i think for the exterior page really guts the pages' contents

[violet raptor]

Imo subregions should be contained within their region's page. I feel like "lore reasons" is kinda irrelevant in the case of lttm because related lore can mostly be covered once (and once only) on the lttm character page.

Parallel copies of content (for instance between lttm subreg and char pages) can lead to discrepancies if only one is updated and the other is left behind

[final grove]

We have combined articles RU wiki for a long time and based on the comments, it is much more convenient for readers to understand regions structure and there is nothing wrong with fact that articles can become too long

[steady bridge]

we do also have spoiler tags for subregions, if necessary

[zinc violet]

yos

[upper trench]

well to be honest i dont know if we should put the exterior together.
most ppl eventually just stearch the subregion name because "the exterior" never pops out

[zinc violet]

we can use redirects to fix that

[steady bridge]

yos

[upper trench]

also

[zinc violet]

already mentioned that in the og post

[upper trench]

could we use that cool feature we used in FP dialogue page and give a separate screen for subregions in the regions that are essentially a bunch of sub regions? (the exterior and FP)

[tacit hemlock]

I think that the wall is very different from the exterior in fact many people think they are different regions entirely

[zinc violet]

but it's still part of the exterior by the game's terms

[upper trench]

i think is a cool feature we dong use enough

[violet raptor]

Different how? Appearance doesn't matter here imo. (what kip said)

[pine wind]

i think that putting everything in one spot is the best solution!
if some subregions have their own pages while others don't based on "differentiation", that's really inconsistent, and imo pretty subjective as well! one person might find a subregion distinct enough to have its own page, while another won't. maybe its because of its size? or maybe different looks, or enemies. we don't have anything to go off of, really
subregions are part of a region, after all. and i think that everything relevant to the region should be contained within the respective region page

[zinc violet]

we dont use it enough because its currently broken

[upper trench]

oh rip

[stray stag]

yeah outside of lore there's not a whole lot you can write on most subregions either too

[zinc violet]

but the tabber is definitely something to consider for regions with lots of subregions like 5P as you said

[upper trench]

if we add the exterior together should we put the leg or the wall 1st?

[tacit hemlock]

The leg I think

[zinc violet]

though it might be nicer to just list them all out at once

thats a finer detail we can consider another time

[upper trench]

but that may make the page too long

specially since subregions essentially have unique creatures

[zinc violet]

also very good points wand

[upper trench]

you cant say SH has miros birds technically

[zinc violet]

pages being too long isnt really a concern honestly

i only included that because i was struggling to come up with a second point in favour of

[tacit hemlock]

Maybe we could make a foldable thing I forgot what they were called

[zinc violet]

accordion box

[pine wind]

yeah so you just stick another enemy box in the "memory crypts" section of the shaded citadel page!

[steady bridge]

we do already specify miros birds + centis in the creatures list, as an example

[zinc violet]

yus

[upper trench]

oof

[steady bridge]

seems to work fine

[upper trench]

not really

if we put subregions together we should point it out

[zinc violet]

yeah i agree that should be separate

[steady bridge]

people do, I believe, understand that you'll be able to see all of these creatures without passing through another gate

[zinc violet]

thats true

[violet raptor]

I feel tabber usage is generally for when there is information that changes depending on some factor (e.g. it's used on a lot of wikis for different character appearances in different scenarios). Since all subregions exist at once I think giving them their own sections on a page is more appropriate... But as you say, tabber doesn't work rn so it doesn't matter too much

[zinc violet]

yeah i agree just something to think about perhaps

[tacit hemlock]

The main issue I'm worried about is confusing new players

[violet raptor]

Yea of course

[zinc violet]

how so

if they search for the subregion name we can just make redirects

search terms are a complete non-issue

[upper trench]

also placing the creatures in the subregions they spawn helps with spoilers.

[ancient hinge]

I dislike the idea of combining the huge and hardly connected subregions of The Exterior into one page where they wouldn't seem to be grouped for any other reason that separation by regions without accounting for common sense So this is as close as I can get to a satisfying solution.

[steady bridge]

I will say that jump links can be a little messy, it's easy to get lost on a long page

[tacit hemlock]

We have to specify info being related to subregions instead of the region as a whole

[zinc violet]

?

[upper trench]

jump links dont even work with Caps sometimes

[violet raptor]

Well that's why - presumably - each subregion would have its own section on a page

[steady bridge]

yes there's a lot of toothpulling work associated with updating to jump links haha

[zinc violet]

im happy with doing my fair share of that

[tacit hemlock]

like if we have a list showing all creatures in a region, New players may think there are DLLs in the wall

[zinc violet]

or all of it

[steady bridge]

(as they already do right)

[zinc violet]

then we make a separate creature/object box for each subregion

[pine wind]

but all subregions would have their own boxes listing all the creatures found in them, no?

yea!

[zinc violet]

yos

[steady bridge]

and na I'm always happy to do that, just an observation about the time resource usage

[tacit hemlock]

Yeah that's what I think we should do too

[zinc violet]

we can have an "overview" one and then specify for subregions

[pine wind]

using tabber for regions which are made up of subregions (say fp, or the exterior), while we'd use headers for region pages which only have one subregions feels like the best solution to me here!

[zinc violet]

casheww does bring up a good point about tabbers here though

[pine wind]

tabber doesn't have to be at the very top of the page right? im not all that accustomed to it

[zinc violet]

nah

[steady bridge]

I'll also say that having subregion pages does limit the amount of attention they get when we're updating the wiki

[tacit hemlock]

Maybe we could also specify info related to subregions

[steady bridge]

most subregion pages are pretty sparse, we just don't look at them as often

[zinc violet]

theyd still be included in the region navbox misinterpreted

[zinc violet]

also i mean? we already do though?

[pine wind]

yes definitely!

[zinc violet]

ok now that i understand your point

yes very good point

theyre like bordering on orphaned pages

[zinc violet]

this is basically the kind of layout i would want

(+ creatureobjectboxes ofc)

[tacit hemlock]

Oh I see

That would work

[zinc violet]

it wouldnt just be a list of subregions on the page with no elaboration

[tacit hemlock]

Yeah idk what I was thinking

[steady bridge]

I do agree with Candle that experior subpages specifically are quite large. That being said, most new players don't want a "subregion delineated map", they want the whole thing. Having to switch pages once you get to the top of the leg is a slight nuisance, I think

[tacit hemlock]

I'm kinda tired

[zinc violet]

definitely

[steady bridge]

the new maps would also be unsatisfying to break up for sure

[zinc violet]

the maps on the subregion pages are all horribly cropped and jpegged from the andrew maps

[pine wind]

i also think that if a subregion has creatures that the main region does not, they should only be in the subregion's enemy/object box, does that make sense?
say if we were to add memory crypts to the shaded citadel page! currently the box there features all creatures including the mc ones (that being miros birds and centipedes?). we could remove those two, and stick a box with miros birds, centipedes, and flashbangs down in the memory crypts section, whenever we get around to condensing that

[zinc violet]

yos

actually memory crypts on the SH page is exactly why i started this debate

[steady bridge]

that sounds great :D

depths and filt for sure deserve that sort of treatment

we've already talked about LTTM/FP-

[ancient hinge]

For The Exterior I guess The Leg and Underhang do make sense but I can't see any really good reason to combine The Wall with them, apart from the fact it's technically one region. They have different creatures and items, different aesthetics, different rain mechanics, UW_D06 even essentially works as a one-way room and prevents creatures from travelling between them...

[zinc violet]

thats why we would have different CreatureObjectBoxes for each subregion

[violet raptor]

jpegged
lmaooo

[pine wind]

i think it'd be even weirder to have leg and underhang condensed while keeping the wall separate..

[tacit hemlock]

If any subregion deserves it's one page it's the wall but I think we should keep it consistent

[zinc violet]

i dont see whats so bad about having different mechanics and creatures that it demands having a separate page for it theyre just bits of info we could include underneath the header for it

[steady bridge]

I will just note:

The wall page really isn't super large :S

[zinc violet]

yeah

wait oops

didnt mean to reply

[steady bridge]

It's basically a paragraph, (easy to add) a list (can turn into nice boxes etc) and a map (already on the exterior page)

[zinc violet]

pretty much all of the subregion pages are that so i dont see why the wall needs special treatment

[violet raptor]

^, they are the same region, and if you were to give the wall its own special treatment page it's just going to spread the idea that it's independent, which it just isn't

[steady bridge]

if anything we'd be able to add more trivia/actual info about the region and still have that section be wayy smaller than the original page

[pine wind]

yes!

[steady bridge]

the wall in total is.. 15 rooms?

[tacit hemlock]

Maybe we could have the underhang and the leg under the same heading to separate the wall from them

[zinc violet]

why?

[pine wind]

i really dont see any reason to separate the two...

[steady bridge]

8/9 "actual" rooms, and honestly outside of creature spawns there's not much that's really unique there- a pearl and an echo sure

[tacit hemlock]

They are very different

[pine wind]

true! yea, they are but its REALLY subjective

[steady bridge]

Visually yes, otherwise, not really :S

[pine wind]

and mostly visual

[zinc violet]

i dont see the sense in this

[pine wind]

as gwyn said

[zinc violet]

whereas this?

way better

[pine wind]

memory crypts

[tacit hemlock]

There are completely different creatures and mechanics grapple worms as an example

[steady bridge]

I would say that as Candle mentioned, the regions are separated by west underhang, so that does contribute to our sense that the wall is "distinct", you rarely go from the wall to underhang

[tacit hemlock]

also the electric storms

[zinc violet]

??

[steady bridge]

But they are in the same region and you can travel between them, if anything having separate pages masks that fact

[zinc violet]

we can just include that information underneath the wall subheader?

as mentioned before?

[steady bridge]

It really is only a few lines of text to convey the mechanical differences, we can put a nice gallery of images in if we really want to convey the visual differences

[pine wind]

of course! because otherwise there wouldn't be any reason to separate them as subregions
its part of the same region that has a somewhat consistent look and enemies. obviously the different subregions will be, well, different from one another

[steady bridge]

(which I think the map already does nicely, thematically)

[tacit hemlock]

My point is that I think the wall should have a visual separation from the leg and underhang

[zinc violet]

yes

its called a subheader

[zinc violet]

these are separate

the content relating to each subregion would go under each header

[tacit hemlock]

What I was thinking is to put underhand and the leg on the same header

[zinc violet]

why

[ancient hinge]

I really dislike the idea of merging The Wall but everyone has good points so I won't fight more Just keeping a little frustration for myself lol.

[tacit hemlock]

To separate them from the wall

[zinc violet]

but they are both already separate from the wall

[pine wind]

what would you call that header even

[zinc violet]

putting them together implies they have the exact same mechanics and creatures which is completely untrue

leg and underhang are also visually distinct from each other in terms of look and level design

hell leg and wall are more similar to each other in terms of design than leg and underhang

should we put wall and leg together because theyre both vertical sections?

[steady bridge]

that seems a little extraneous given that the underhang has more rooms than the wall :S traversing from underhang to the wall is an option that players take, and vice versa is definitely a valid path as well, esp for hunter

[steady bridge]

hm :S

[zinc violet]

we're already distinguishing between each subregion

[steady bridge]

We'd definitely want to do it really well; probably actual headers over subheaders?

[zinc violet]

i dont see what the sense is in making underhang and the leg the same header for no real reason or benefit

[zinc violet]

we want these things to consistent though should all subregions be an actual header rather than subheader?

if its purely because "we want subheaders for the subregions" then subsubheaders exist

[steady bridge]

are we talking about subregions here?

[zinc violet]

oh

oops

yes

too many sub-s

[tacit hemlock]

This is what I was thinking but looking at it now it does seem like a dumb idea

[violet raptor]

[zinc violet]

it's just Underhang fyi

[tacit hemlock]

Yeah I know

I was just a temporary tittle

[violet raptor]

headers vs subheaders is often hard because sometimes you want the visual emphasis on the page of a full header but the functionality (p much just appearance in ToC) of a subheading

[pine wind]

i think that a full header for subregions might work to make them stand out better, especially when there are more than one!
there's a fair amount of info to include, alongside any media we might stick in them. i also think it would be way too much separation to make a subregion header, then a subheader for the subregion, then a subsubheader or two for stuff like overview and creatures

[zinc violet]

we could just do -- if we want the visual emphasis that badly

[steady bridge]

We'd definitely be able to distinguish between the subregions visually and in formatting; it's not like players are going to be misled, the map is right there and each subregion overview would have connecting information, e.g. one way paths, grapple worm availability, etc

[zinc violet]

yeah thats fair

[pine wind]

this is too much sub and region for me im getting words mixed up

[zinc violet]

yeah

though making them full headers does lose that nice level of categorisation of eg
Sub-region

• Memory Crypts
  in the TOC

[steady bridge]

could do something like that

[zinc violet]

i think we can manually insert -- for separating stuff if we want it

[violet raptor]

yes, I like the idea of full headings for each subregion, but at the same time it then looks visually identical to the trivia section

[zinc violet]

that

[steady bridge]

UNDERHANG

TRIVIA

TIPS

[zinc violet]

[steady bridge]

REGION MAP BY HENPEMAX

[violet raptor]

trivia is my favourite outskirts rubregion

[steady bridge]

💥

[zinc violet]

so true

[pine wind]

did you guys know that they're adding the Arena mode unlockables sub region to farm arrays in downpour

[zinc violet]

i think something like this looks fine

[pine wind]

yus very nice

[violet raptor]

you go through a connection and end up playing for the Pointless jackpot or something

[pine wind]

good consistency and separation

[steady bridge]

Perhaps a piece of the puzzle here would be actually seeing creature/infoboxes in a subregion section?

[zinc violet]

oh def

hold on

[steady bridge]

We do want it to be accessible after all

[zinc violet]

yos

[steady bridge]

easy to navigate

[zinc violet]

ok time to speedrun making a template

[steady bridge]

Would you feel comfortable if we left the exterior subpages for last, candle?

would give us some time to set up the others, see how they work, play around a little

[zinc violet]

yos

[ancient hinge]

(Oh I think one last argument about distinct Exterior pages would be the spoiler factor, instantly seeing the rest of the region in the page gives a lot away)

[zinc violet]

yeah

i think at some point though like

if youre coming to a wiki you're kind of already consenting to some level of spoilers right

[violet raptor]

would it be possible to have spoiler banners that don't collapse the section below them?

[zinc violet]

we can try to minimise how much you get spoiled but eventually its just too many factors out of our control and imo tidiness and consistency should come first

it does have that option yes

i think candle is moreso talking about seeing the subregion name in the ToC

[steady bridge]

I will say

If we're talking about the names specifically, there is that exposure in general on any subregion page

[ancient hinge]

I think at that point to minimize unwanted spoilers I would just like distinct maps but they wouldn't be simple to implement in a way that makes sense

[zinc violet]

yeah

[steady bridge]

It's tricky, the leg and underhang are very distinct areas and they are linear, players progress up and will reasonably look for into on the wiki sometimes, tips etc

[zinc violet]

again, it is nice to minimise spoilers but theres a point where bending over backwards trying not to include them lowers the quality of pages

[steady bridge]

the least we can do is structure the page chronologically, leg, underhang, wall, & have clear spoiler markers

[zinc violet]

yep

[steady bridge]

potentially specific template wording, if we really want to go all out?

subtemplate under the subheading for the subregion

[zinc violet]

[pine wind]

subsubsubsubsu💥
the word has lost any meaning to me

also yes good idea with the ordering and spoiler markers!

[zinc violet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T_yyTIfRY4

[pine wind]

i think thats the best we can do to keep soilers away from new players while not compromising the written content

really wrote soilers just there

[zinc violet]

agree

[steady bridge]

no mucky soilers on our clean kitchlabs

[pine wind]

wouldn't want no spillers on this spondler free wiki

[steady bridge]

I do think that orphaned subpage thing is quite a strong issue

it makes it harder to be consistent across all 4

trivia or useful info is often left out of one, e.g. info about reaching the city incl. gifs is only shown on the exterior page, not the wall page

we could obviously reach parity but it's hard to stay consistent there, and it does lead to some redundancy

[pine wind]

yeaah
i can understand the arguments about keeping wall separate, but that, alongside the inconsistency that would arise, and just how little there is to write about it really make it not the best idea imo

[zinc violet]

def

[steady bridge]

would we like to go for some sort of vote? Might be good to leave it up for a few hours minimum so people can chip in

[zinc violet]

yeah given this is quite a larger scale issue ill give things an hour or two

id also like to put together a subregion CreatureRegionTable

so people can input on that

[pine wind]

yeah! i think it'd be nice to reiterate the points in favour and against the idea here again, along with any new ones we got during the debate, just so anyone that sees this later doesn't have to scroll through a ton of messages

[zinc violet]

thats what the pinned message (which is also where the ping is) is for

[pine wind]

ohh right its pinned! my bad, forgot about that

[zinc violet]

no worries

if anyone else has any other points to bring up at all feel free to mention them and ofc if you need to catch up check the second pinned message

a bit smol but it does the job

[ancient hinge]

Oh yeah once again question about the CreatureRegionTables, how would we know what creatures we should put in? For The Exterior it's simple since they can't really travel, but with Communications Array or Filtration System there can be a lot of movement and it wouldn't be limited to what creatures spawn inside the subregion.

[zinc violet]

i would personally define it by the den spawns

[steady bridge]

I think if anything having the pages condensed together makes that easier-

[zinc violet]

if the den the creature originates from is in a subregion then it's part of that subregion's spawns since thats where it'll typically be found

[steady bridge]

We can naturally mention that scavs wander into filt from sub etc

[pine wind]

yeah den spawns
im unsure what we'd do in case of offscreen dens...

[steady bridge]

hmm

[zinc violet]

well, scavs dont show up in memory crypts do they?

[steady bridge]

I assume Joar told them sternly not to

[zinc violet]

they definitely have defined places where they can go or not thanks to room attraction settings

[stray stag]

how about asked politely

[steady bridge]

for comms arrays we can def add kvs and vs, as creatures that do show up

[stray stag]

scavs have never shown up there for me though just birds

[zinc violet]

so i think for off-screen dens generally the answer to whether they should be included or not is "yes, unless it's specifically a subregion which has low room attractiveness for those creatures"

yus

[pine wind]

sounds good!

[steady bridge]

I mean filtration spe- you mean you've never had scavs in filt?

[zinc violet]

birds in filtration????

[steady bridge]

forgot about miros in filt

lol

[stray stag]

oops talking about crypts and the near areas

[zinc violet]

yeah

[stray stag]

filtration miros are real

so scary

[steady bridge]

so are shaded ones D:

eep and eek

[stray stag]

D:

[zinc violet]

im saying scavs have very low room attractiveness for that subregion (and generally the entire lower areas) so they shouldnt be included for there

[steady bridge]

definitely good trivia

yons

incl offscreen where relevant would pad the boxes out as well

make them a little more relevant for players

[zinc violet]

yos

[ancient hinge]

I think it's mostly just confusing for Filtration System because almost any creature from Subterranean can wander there more or less easily provided they travel far enough

[steady bridge]

for sure D:

we could definitely note that in the overview

[zinc violet]

in fairness thats just something thats inherent to the random nature of the game

i think uhm

the default spawns (off-screen nonwithstanding) are a good starting point because that's where you are most likely to find them cycle after cycle

especially when you first enter the region

[pine wind]

i think that's the best idea there yeah!

[zinc violet]

and for the offscreen it just depends on the room attractiveness

[agile thicket]

hey, apologies if this isnt something i shouldnt be responding to, but, just figured i’d put my ten cents in
i think personally its best to keep things as is. while some subregions such as Unfortunate Development, Memory Crypts, and Depths are SUBSTANCIALLY different from their mainline regions, the main issue is that a lot of others tend to be more or less the same, such as Communication Arrays. on top of this it also convolutes The Exterior and Five Pebbles, as both are more or less comprised entirely of subregions. But at the same time I do agree there should be further elaboration on all the subregions, as i’ve noticed some subregions (Communication Arrays, General System Bus, Memory Conflux, Recursive Transform Array, and Unfortunate Development, to be exact) dont even have their own pages, and are rather briefly mentioned in the region they’re from.

[zinc violet]

if you got pinged then its something we want you to give your thoughts on

[agile thicket]

fair, i was which is why i responded lol

[zinc violet]

though im not really sure i understand your point :?

[pine wind]

no worries about that anyone is free to give their thoughts here !
its difficult to give "further elaboration" on many smaller subregions exactly

what there is to write about is already written about. if they had their own pages they'd be a pharagraph or two

[zinc violet]

many of the subregion pages are stubs because its incredibly hard to make anything substantial out of them, which is why we're thinking of instead consolidating them. this would also help direct more people to their existence since atm the separate subregion pages are very squirreled away, meaning potentially more people would notice and contribute to them

[agile thicket]

OH

i just reread the original message, misinterpreted it as including all the subregions as regions on the region page

my apologies lol

[pine wind]

ahh
that makes some more sense!!

all good

[zinc violet]

no, just to make it clear we want to take the currently existing subregion pages that are separate from their ancestor region pages and consolidate them into the latter

https://rainworld.miraheze.org/wiki/Filtration_System

putting everything here onto the main Subterranean page

[agile thicket]

gotcha! okay that makes a ton more sense
i think overall its a good idea, even the more different ones such as memory crypts and looks to the moon can still be mentioned within the main page, as long as all their content is still covered instead of condensed i’d say its a good idea personally

[zinc violet]

yes the goal would 100% be to cover them extensively

im in the process of putting together an example

[agile thicket]

gotcha! then yea i’d agree with it

[pine wind]

o yes it'll be all covered !!
it'd be difficult to not cover it all really
there's often not a ton

[violet raptor]

I have just gone and looked at the lttm subregion page (which btw is named "Looks to the Moon (region)" lol) to see what lore people were actually talking about and there is none

non issue moment

[pine wind]

loreless....

[zinc violet]

im still working on it (getting distracted with other stuff ) but

[pine wind]

yes that looks so nice

the silly headers i mean, love em

[zinc violet]

@agile thicket just to double check is this the kind of thing youd be good with?

[steady bridge]

that's a nice way to break it up, looks goood

[agile thicket]

yea, i like managing creature behaviors and where they are overall, i know how to do it, though im still working on doing more so i have more experience, its something im very interested in though

[zinc violet]

oh uh

i mean "good with" as in "this layout is fine by me"

sorry

[agile thicket]

OH

sorry im goin off 3 hours of sleep here my brain is more hollow than normal

[steady bridge]

acanthus work for us

yesssssss

£0.25/h

[stray stag]

wow! so much money

can i apply

[agile thicket]

i’d be down to do it honestly, i just mess a lot of things up lol

[zinc violet]

its fine! no worries

[steady bridge]

in peanut butter vouchers

[pine wind]

i can buy half a golden popcorn plant with that kind of money!!

[agile thicket]

[agile thicket]

WOAH

i like helping with the wiki when i can its just that most things have already been done lol
VERY excited to help out when downpour releases though!!!!!

[zinc violet]

youd be surprised by how much needs doing

never-ending grind

[agile thicket]

fair, i havent noticed anything personally was moreso what i meant by that, my bad lol

[pine wind]

its mainly pretty'ing stuff up and revamps

...many many revamps

[agile thicket]

thats fair yeah

[zinc violet]

yeah

[agile thicket]

just sayin as someone who’s only been using the wiki for very surface level purposes aside from a few VERY minor fixes for like, less than a month, it looks really, really good so far, everyone who actively works on it should be very proud of themselves

[zinc violet]

glad to hear we're always doing the best we can to improve the quality even more though

[agile thicket]

i’d love to help in any way i can, gonna be tryin to best i can with things but there’s a LOT i hardly understand, i’ll be lookin for things to do though regardless
anyways i’ll stop floodin this thread with all this lol

[zinc violet]

no worries, all and any contribution is welcome, even if it's just "smaller" things like grammar and phrasing fixes - it all helps contribute to a higher, more consistent level of quality across the wiki there will be a massive to-do list coming out eventually which ill be pinging wiki for more likely

[agile thicket]

gotcha! ^^

OH one more thing

[agile thicket]

where’d the green liz come from?

[zinc violet]

oh its because i accidentally inserted the shaded citadel regioncreature table

[agile thicket]

gotcha lol, wanted to mention it earlier but i for whatever reason briefly remembered seein one near industrial but i remembered it was just one in industrial near shaded

[zinc violet]

more accurate now lmao

[agile thicket]

wait im just now realizing that was for MC
moreso was referring to shaded in general, i dont see a green liz on any gamemode on the interactive map, nor do i remember there being any, is it alright if i remove them?

[zinc violet]

do you know how to edit templates?

bc its on a template, not the actual page itself

[agile thicket]

gotcha, i do know how to remove or add things from templates yea

[zinc violet]

right

we should move to #wiki at this point

[pine wind]

speaking of that do you think it makes sense to hold the vote now or... are we waiting for that?

[zinc violet]

hmm, lets give it 30 more mins

then itll have been 2 hours

[pine wind]

ah yus fair

[ancient hinge]

(Oh yeah my mistake, I had taken it from the code long before I learnt some dens were broken I should generally recheck everything and fix all these tables now that Vorgozz sent the list of errors)

[agile thicket]

i tried fixing it myself but it uses a template that i cant really seem to find out how to edit lol
makes total sense tho, it aint too big of a deal ofc, i’ll let ya know if i find anything else like that

[zinc violet]

oh oops i forgot to hold the vote

lets do that now

we had 9 participants so we'll need a majority of 5

[pine wind]

i might be missing something but wouldn't candle's input bring that up to 10?

[zinc violet]

oh oops how did i miss them omg

ok there

1️⃣ - Consolidate sub-region pages with their main region page
2️⃣ - Keep the sub-region pages as-is

pinging all participants to notify them of the vote going up
@steady bridge @upper trench @tacit hemlock @violet raptor @final grove @stray stag @ancient hinge @agile thicket

that's a soft majority 1 more and ill call that a hard majority

and thats a wrap

will begin integrating the pages and removing the old ones once their info is consolidated

thank you all for your input

[ancient hinge]

Oh quick suggestion, do you think other debates should be longer, so that people who aren't able to be here when they start can still give an opinion later?

[zinc violet]

i think it depends on the type of debate

something like the topic of lore is DEFINITELY something i want to leave open for several days

but i think as long as we get most of our core contributor group it's okay of course we will always listen to anything people bring up post-debate but i think for both debates so far some people being absent hasnt affected which way the scales would have tipped much

[pine wind]

yeah i think for fairly minor stuff like consolidation or use of icons its fine to leave it around for a few hours or so

ahh lore
keeping those around for a day or longer is a good call definitely!!

[zinc violet]

yus

it's always possible for us to re-open subjects of debate too

thats why ive kept each one archived in the pins

[worldly canopy]

I'll bring up my point in favor of "We cannot do this in a singular, non-mixed way" again:

When one enters Five Pebbles, they see the region name "Five Pebbles." The subregions of five pebbles are largely uneventful enough to warrant their own page.

When one enters the Underhang, they are most likely only greeted with "The Leg". The existence of The Underhang or the Wall would be a spoiler to this person, and The Leg is very much a distinct and notable zone compared to the two.

If someone hops onto the wiki and searches "The Leg" I would think they expect to land on a page that gives them detailed information and tips on it. If someone searches General Systems Bus I expect them to get a subpage of Five Pebbles.

Like at the end of the day I'm not sure I can think of any other page that warrants this treatment as uniquely as The Leg, I suppose. Maybe Memory Crypts.

[wicked wave]

yea I agree with the mixed approach

lttm, memory crypts, leg, underhang, general systems bus(?), the wall and filtration system all act very differently from recursive transform arrays, unfortunate development(?) and comms array

[steady bridge]

Would collapsible spoiler boxes allay concerns about spoilers there? The subregion pages obviously already contain mentions of preceding and upcoming [sub]regions, and we already specify that they are subregions, so the amount of extra info available to the player would be very limited
Current Leg subregion page:

https://rainworld.miraheze.org/wiki/Shoreline The shoreline page has LTTM in an expandable spoiler box

(Spoiler box once opened)

Agreed about Memory Crypts, I think a spoiler tag would definitely be good there as it is a midgame subregion in a potentially earlygame region, for some players

[zinc violet]

for the record i copied all of the information over from the original pages for the ones ive done so far and tidied it up a little bit

there's nothing saying we can't have detailed descriptions of subregions on their ancestor region pages

and we can always make redirects so when people search the subregion up they appear as an option

[steady bridge]

those redirects can also jump directly to the section, like so

https://rainworld.miraheze.org/wiki/Shaded_Citadel#Memory_Crypts

[zinc violet]

yus

[zinc violet]

the memory crypts one has a tips section actually

just like was mentioned

finally the point about spoilers--
this is something we talked about a lot
personally i think whilst minimising exposure to spoilers is good, there's only so much we can do before, in trying to make everything as spoiler free as possible, we start gutting the quality of pages

at the end of the day we are a wiki and we need to display relevant information in easily accessible ways and whilst we can minimise exposure to spoilers the entire point of the wiki is to well... spoil things. if you're going on a wiki you're consenting to some level of spoilers

[steady bridge]

(which as mentioned here can be really very minimal, no more really than currently exists). The only difference is that it's a collapsible spoiler box (with appropriate spoiler warnings) instead of a page link away

[zinc violet]

also, since redirects can jump directly to headers if you search only for e.g "The Leg" you would jump past the table of contents only to that section of the article

and we could put the other subregions in their own spoiler boxes

[zinc violet]

also something else to note
UD does behave differently from the rest of the region, being a much tighter, riskier platforming section. it also reveals that five pebbles is the source of the rot, with its protos germinating in the walls - something that's a very key lore point
you could take any subregion and point out things like this
communications array is a key lore area because it's the radio tower used by the local group to communicate with each other. plus, instead of being about horizontal traversal it's moreso about vertical traversal
in my opinion the idea of many of these regions being "unique enough from the rest" to justify their own pages is honestly purely based on preconceived notions of specialness when the game doesn't really treat them that way all subregions are "different enough" from their ancestor region to warrant being a subregion -- that's why they're subregions

and as they're all subregions they should all be treated equally

[steady bridge]

It does make more sense when the distinction is whether a subregion should be spoilered or not VS having its own page, in my mind at least haha