Watcher 1.5 lore discussion

[dawn bear]

YIPPIIEE

Finally a place to discuss the pearl
What does Iterator flesh taste like?

[vale portal]

uhmm

[hybrid minnow]

Of course the first message is evil

[vale portal]

we all gotta be evil

if you could actually kill the prince how many spear throws would it take/j

[dawn bear]

I'm 100% sure it's just like chicken

[hybrid minnow]

Whale mouth jumpscare

[vale portal]

mm chicken.. i'd say it'd be like kangaroo meat but i realized thats only something that happens in australia

[dawn bear]

I mean Ancieng Urban could be Australia or similar

[hybrid minnow]

Does that make Spinny a aussie

[vale portal]

please im aussie that would be amazing

[dawn bear]

Yeah it would 🤔

[vale portal]

this is kangaroo meat

[dawn bear]

Yeah I can see that being how iterator flesh tastes like

[hybrid minnow]

I wonder if there's any lore implications to the spiral

[snow trench]

What if the ripplespawn in OR are the remains of Human - Iterator war

[tired jay]

posting so i get added to the thread

[hasty shore]

Blackboxless 1.5 lore

[drowsy crow]

can i post weaver here

[hybrid minnow]

Any 1.5 is fair game

[kind otter]

yeah

[drowsy crow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1271667047797100657/1422704052499775650/Weaverrrrrr-RealizzatoconClipchamp-ezgif.com-crop.gif

[light crow]

I STILL THINK ITS ABSURD THEIR MOUTH SHAPE LIKE A BUG NET

[kind otter]

so like what do different regions' sands taste like?

[drowsy crow]

Dry

[hybrid minnow]

Which mud tastes better? Badlands or Fractured goop?

[kind otter]

like presumably dust overall has a pretty similar taste but the different conditions of the regions might affect the flavour

[drowsy crow]

i wonder if the smaller whales also eat the flies, but they don't seem to have amouth

[vale portal]

that is a pretty gif

[kind otter]

badlands obviously

gateways has Poison Swamp Vibes i think eating the mud there would give you like, diarrhea

[snow trench]

I like the Outer Rim sand, tastes like blueberries

[light crow]

i know the whisker whales in signal spire has no mouth otherwise i think they might end up eating watcher since their relationship to watcher is "wants to eat"

[edgy arrow]

[light crow]

whats locust whale - watcher relationship actually

all i know is gigantic whale seems kinda scripted to show up when you enter that room lmao

[hybrid minnow]

Touching its mouth is instant death

[snow trench]

Locust Whale is just a Sky Whale but alt version

[light crow]

so still "wants to eat" ?

[edgy arrow]

i like how they found a way to include the big skywhale thing in the campaign lol

[snow trench]

Yeah

[edgy arrow]

also i never knew you were supposed to hide under the whales

[kind otter]

technically the new leviathan whale doesn't actually use the old leviathan whale stuff

[snow trench]

Sky Whales are less likely to target you if they are underwater btw

[kind otter]

it's the old concept but executed differently

[edgy arrow]

that's what i meant

[vale portal]

wait guys.. guys hey go check the watcher twitter acc

theres something.. cool..

[kind otter]

prince marketable plushie???

[vale portal]

PRINCE MARKETABLE PLUSHIE!!!

[drowsy crow]

Thats the only way to get through without max ripole

[edgy arrow]

yeah i held off on that region until i was locked at max ripple just because i didn't know that

[drowsy crow]

New? Theres an old One???

I thought It wqs pretty obvious idk

[drowsy crow]

????

[vale portal]

WHAT

what happened

[kind otter]

unused leviathan whale tag

[vale portal]

massive omg

[kind otter]

presumably for an early version of the huge dry whale in fractured gateways

[hybrid minnow]

Is there any lore do you think to the spiral?

[kind otter]

yeah actually what the fuck is up with the spiral

why did people build that

[edgy arrow]

given the outer rim people seemed to know a thing or two about ripple i'd imagine it's possible they did something involving ripplespawn

depends on what exactly it is though

the spawn like it seemingly

i think it perhaps harnesses a kind of power?

especially with how it's always a present force for watcher after they use it once

[kind otter]

power plant that works by harnessing rotational energy from the movement of spirits

[hybrid minnow]

What's up with the elder ripple spawn.... why does it look like that

[kind otter]

big friend!

[snow trench]

What if Bennies had ripplespawn infestation and they couldnt clear it up before the last mass ascension

[kind otter]

the culmination of ripplespawn existence is obviously going to be big worm is it not

[edgy arrow]

i mean for all we know they built the thing just to watch the spawn swim around it

[hybrid minnow]

True

[edgy arrow]

it might've been a way of communing with them, in a sort of way if that makes sense?

[snow trench]

Worm form is the "everything evolves into crabs" of RW

[drowsy crow]

weaver's a worm too kinda

[drowsy crow]

the big one?

[light crow]

yea i think they meant the gigantic one

[drowsy crow]

what is up with Void spawn anyway

also they are Gold normally right? it's just watcher making them purple

[hybrid minnow]

It's called the elder spawn in the code I believe

[hybrid minnow]

Yeah

[kind otter]

it's about the layer you percieve them from

[drowsy crow]

played so much watcher i almost forgot

[hybrid minnow]

Or more like, viewing them on the same layer of reality makes them purple

[edgy arrow]

yeah uhhh knowing ripplespawn aren't voidspawn offers a looot of questions

[hybrid minnow]

Watcher is the only one who can see them on the same layer

[kind otter]

they're their "normal" colour if you see one on the carnal layer from ripplespace

[drowsy crow]

yeah cause if you go in ripple space the ones in normal space are gold

[kind otter]

no?

[edgy arrow]

or well, unless that's not the intended visual

[kind otter]

is this not direct confirmation that they're the same things seen differently

[edgy arrow]

i'm far from sure

[hybrid minnow]

Every other slugcat views voidspawn on another layer of reality, and hence they always appear golden

Only Watcher is able to exist on the same layer as them, thus making them ourple

[edgy arrow]

i'm quite the believer of ripplespawn and voidspawn being the same thing but like, in the ending there's voidspawn?

like spawn that stay golden on both layers?

or well i swear i SAW voidspawn iunno if i was losing my mind or if that was intentional or not

[kind otter]

spawn in multiple layers of reality converging on the void sea

[drowsy crow]

i don't remember seeing any voidspawn

in the ending

[drowsy crow]

oh there

[edgy arrow]

i went into ripplespace to see if they'd turn purple but i'm pretty sure they didn't

so it's got me curious

[drowsy crow]

maybe just game stuff

[edgy arrow]

i don't think that makes a lot of sense personally

[snow trench]

Imagine ripple layers as a fourth dimension, where being ripplewards causes purple glow and being karmawards causing yellow glow. Normal ripplespawn is close to your location and the side you look towards it changes when you cross that small distance, causing a change of colour, while void spawn is FAR from you in ripplelayers so your movement doesnt change the perspective

[edgy arrow]

i don't really think that fits the portrayal though

like it's portrayed pretty consistently as two layers, ripplespace and... space i guess

i mean i don't even wanna say this visual is even intentional

like it's one thing to have a solid theory proven wrong but this just feels like the opposite of what the game was portraying with spawn

[prisma fjord]

the new big whale isn't even a physical object, in fact

[edgy arrow]

i mean maybe they just didn't get rid of the old spawn for some reason?

or maybe they thought it'd be okay to imply watcher can magically see spawn from space now because they're ascending and wouldn't imagine some guy would go "huh is that voidspawn" and switch to ripplespace to specifically see that they stay golden

i should've screenshotted that

or actually i probably did but i can't tell if i did

nvm i did

but there's no like before and after and i can't tell if there's even voidspawn so it's not reliable

anyway i don't think it matters

speaking of depths though it was awesome to see the cracked glass visual actually get added to the game

[hybrid minnow]

The evil dial

[wooden needle]

hello

evil channel of spoilers and dispair

[vale portal]

hello

how are toy

you.

im tired sorry

[wooden needle]

im top and soft and weird and ball

[wet meteor]

hello watcher lore 2 how are the lores today

[vale portal]

thats good

[wooden needle]

im literally daemon

[vale portal]

im feeling weaverspace rn

[wooden needle]

weaverspace is so intriguing

[vale portal]

it did not look like a real place in rainworld

it looks like a different game

[wooden needle]

i thought it looked like that one terraria mod boss

the flayer icon

let me find a vid

why did it BING VIDEO

[vale portal]

BING

[wooden needle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBJ6d5WTJPg&msockid=40e5da2a9f0311f0ab6cc779f608d609

bro i dont care enought o download another browser

[vale portal]

This is how I feel

[wooden needle]

tell me this realm doesnt look like dark blue weaver space

[vale portal]

sorry it

[wooden needle]

i immediately thought of it when i saw it

[vale portal]

auto spoilers

[wooden needle]

😭

[vale portal]

i sent it from my phone :')

the file starts with SPOILER

[wooden needle]

funnily enough its also a 2d game where you encounter a cryptic powerful being

[frail dew]

thread alert

:o

[polar ridge]

I can spoiler forever and ever!!!

Chat how do we feel about K'Arelus of Mart

[wet meteor]

probably didnt eat rats, 0/10

[vale portal]

i wanna visit the famous crystal pillar. ahem wait no im sorry i wanna visit THE FAMOUS CRYSTAL PILLAR

[drowsy crow]

the what

[vale portal]

the famous crystal pillar

in oneof the pearls

[drowsy crow]

the one with the hand?

[wet meteor]

no the famous crystal pillar. you know. the famous one

[vale portal]

the very famous one

cmon now

[drowsy crow]

i don't know it

[vale portal]

well.. get to know it

[astral helm]

You know me I love exploring ideas of the Self so I am a big fan

[vale portal]

do you like the crystal pillar

the most important question

[wet meteor]

i dont think k'arelus is exactly related to the ideology stuff. pretty sure they're just the person that was in charge during that time

[drowsy crow]

what is that

do i need to read the pearls :3c

[vale portal]

yes

[kind otter]

or at least just. Notable Enough to be used as a pointer for a time period

[astral helm]

right my bad I guess I have no particular feelings on them as the positive association between their Pearl and its contents is now null and void

[astral helm]

this is fascinating in itself though

like using specific figures to define an era

[wooden needle]

rest in peace spearmaster bro i cant believe he died in ending 3

[astral helm]

exolain.

[celest thunder]

There might honestly be something to the ideology

We do see 3 daemon monoliths in the ending

[astral helm]

thats what im sayin

the three columns

[celest thunder]

Im not sure on the significance doe

Mhm

Do we see other depictions of 5 and 3

Theres 5 natural urges yes

[astral helm]

obviously there are more selves but you have to connect the three to connect all the others of course

[celest thunder]

But other than that im drawing a blank

[astral helm]

three has significance for ST, Prince, and Weaver...

five has significance for Five Pebbles (name) and the five karma you're stuck with before you increase your maximum

hmmmm im not good at thinking of other examples

[kind otter]

a lot more than three

[celest thunder]

Oh yeah the trio

[astral helm]

you can interpret it as an alignment of selves around the three pillars, which is then repeated... zzzz

either to showcase a greater pattern or to showcase the pattern in regards to watcher specifically i guess

[kind otter]

it's just that three are close up because that's good for the composition

[celest thunder]

Hm maybe

Sry i cant think of anythin either x-x

[wooden needle]

if theres a prince why isnt there a king

[vale portal]

i ate the king

so

no king just prince

[astral helm]

not very nice

[celest thunder]

I ate the queen

[vale portal]

parentless prince

[celest thunder]

Orphan

[wooden needle]

new wplace finished project

[celest thunder]

Oh yeah abt guardian halos i remember watching a video comparing them to medival star/planetary charts

Like those concentric rings

[vale portal]

their halos r so coool ngl

[vale portal]

sorry i can uneat the king

[celest thunder]

Truuu

Sorry i cant uneat princes mom

Hes an orphan now

[light crow]

thinking about when the campaign description says "a journey like no other" and its true... it really is... a journey like no other....

[hybrid minnow]

It's not by much, but yeah, if you do Prince ending, you miss out on Prince content

[edgy arrow]

personally i don't think you'd be missing much with that dialogue

[hybrid minnow]

Yeah it's not a much

But it's still content that you miss if you actually do Prince's ending

[edgy arrow]

it's not bad don't get me wrong but like it tells us prince is fascinated with rifts and weaving... which we know, it's happy to see you grow... which we know, and that it's cool with you opposing it and letting the best man win

[noble root]

do i need to replay the whole dlc so i can rot everything and then fix it :3

surely something would change with the big ending

[edgy arrow]

i also feel like the idea the efflorescence wasn't that significant to its growth is weird

we don't exactly know what happened other than prince possibly experiencing turmoil and/or going braindead for a bit- but like, what's the point of that sequence if it doesn't really matter?

maybe it happened offscreen or something i guess considering we don't really open a path to vanilla for prince

it just spread on its own without our help

but still

[tulip drift]

i feel like a lot of that is another case of stuff that was cut due to lack of time

they mightve planned more prince interactions depending on your progress on his and weaver's quests

and ended up not having time for all of it

[hybrid minnow]

Honestly I'm surprised he doesn't even acknowledge the blooming if it happened in his last dialogue

[vale portal]

maybe its because it's intended to only wake him up for the ending not bloom him so he doesnt mention it ?

it doesnt make sense for them to add dialouge if the intended thing for the ending is just waking him

[tulip drift]

except then it doesnt make sense that he just unblooms for the ending

[vale portal]

true 😭

[tulip drift]

so personally im leaning more towards cut corner

[vale portal]

could be yeah

[hybrid minnow]

Cappin confirmed that him being alive and well in the ending even if bloomed was intentional

[tulip drift]

not the first, not the last, just another unfortunate consequences of the tight release deadline

[tulip drift]

ye we're saying the complete lack of comments towards it is really odd

he's also arguably not well because the Throne collapsed lmao

[edgy arrow]

hooooooooooooold on

i just realized something

so flowers represent existential ideas yeah?

karma flowers represent ascension

and prince's flower is literally its puppet, a characterization of itself whom is a being representative of opposing ideals to ascension

prince slowly realizes its inability to fulfill its function and consequentially ideas opposing the ones it lives by enters its mind

the flower representing the opposite of prince's ideals takes over and prince can't do anything

like 2 billion years later, the prince is able to coexist with the flower and has made peace with the tragic nature of its existence

the entire flower thing is a symbolic representation of prince's growth in a way that i think mirrors how watcher finds balance with weaving and... "weaving"

it feels overwhelmed by the desire to be free from the task that strains it, and given time learns to accept both those feelings and the strain of being able to do neither- complete its purpose or be free

which allows it to appreciate outer rim even though being trapped there is certain doom for it instead of trying to run away and do the impossible

this storytelling is peam

[tulip drift]

PEAM

(i quite love everything you just said)

[edgy arrow]

also outer rim (and iterators for rot like the one in UE) is prince's alpha and omega, the place where it came to be and will pass

in tragic irony their egg becomes their tomb

which ties that whole idea back into prince's character

[vale portal]

oh its peak

[hybrid minnow]

The lizard skull shown in the chimney canopy pearl is still wild to me and funny

NSH was right all along /j

[warm crater]

hello hello

[snow trench]

@edgy arrow I just assume self-destruction stuff is an often topic, almost like it is always in background of everyones mind

[edgy arrow]

it's weird

i don't wanna say it's impossible nobody thought of trying to shed it

[warm crater]

OHH OKAY I GET IT NOW

[snow trench]

Like we also got a situation where we randomly see someone talking about self-destruction taboo during a completely unreleated convo, and also just conveniently in place for EP to use the chance

I dont think it was a miracle, but rather the discussion is just THAT frequent

[warm crater]

I think at the timeframe of that conversation its implied its moreso a streisand effect where BoG is only mentioning it because benefactors are trying to hammer it home to iterators that they can't be doing that

[edgy arrow]

but the way its implied to be the ONLY thing the host and therefore general audience would be scared iterators would try with parallel processing

like i'm sure it was an idea parsed but if it's been such a looming issue for so long why would SOS even exist?

[snow trench]

I think its just The Worst Thing Of The Bunch. And besides we dont even get the Benefactor side of the convo due to Bell Of Gesture constantly interrupting

[warm crater]

"Please do Not attempt to Bypass the Taboos!"
"Wasn't even thinking of that but okay."

[edgy arrow]

the problem with that is that it doesn't really make the problem worse because it took sliver of straw like way later for everyone to treat it like a big deal

i guess it's not entirely unexplainable- maybe you're kind of write in them being super scared about the taboos considering an entire city could just collapse due to the iterator dying

[snow trench]

I dont think SOS was the first to consider self-destruction taboos. It was a theme BEFORE SOS too, given the EP dialogue and even just FPs idea

[edgy arrow]

what

[warm crater]

I don't believe we even know for certain SOS actually performed a taboo bypass? Its just a baseless accusation a detractor threw at one of their dead kindred

[snow trench]

I think FP less tried self-destruction before SOS, but rather SOS inspired them to do self-destruction after they assumed it brought results

[snow trench]

Yeah

[edgy arrow]

we don't know why SOS died or why she sent the signal but her death after sending out the 3a is what caused pebbles and what's implied many others to consider the idea

[snow trench]

Yeah. Yet SOS didnt say anything about the idea itself, or talk about the success at all, but rather it was an idea before.

[edgy arrow]

yeah but she was the reason the idea was considered

don't get me wrong- i can justify the dialogue's existence

my problem isn't that the dialogue doesn't fit under any context, it's that i feel the need to justify it because it comes so close to making SOS's death redundant and kind of weird (because if people wanted to try for so long why bother waiting if you were going insane from doing so before and after her death)

and that's exacerbated by the usage of benefactor in the same text lol

[warm crater]

The way Bell talks about it all makes it sound like they're bringing up a tiresome yet persistent topic they've already heard being brought up and discussed by other citizens

[edgy arrow]

and that is all ignorant of the intent

i'm not sure what they mean to imply with this pearl but the way its phrased feels so questionable i need to interpret it in a way that allows it to exist in the context of the story when i don't normally have to do that

[warm crater]

Eeeehhh I find the dialogue logical enough

Though let me get this straight you're saying it implies certain iterators have already begun considering ascending themselves, right?

[edgy arrow]

oh i'm sure they were always considering that

[quiet lava]

anyone got uhhhg all pearl dialgoue compiled somewhere

pretty please

[warm crater]

Oh I was given a handy index hold on

[edgy arrow]

https://yanwittmann.github.io/rw-collection-index/

[warm crater]

The thing is I think they didn't have the time to actually consider any of that because the benefactors being around kept them too busy

They only turned to solving their own problem when their citizens all moved on

[edgy arrow]

my problem is that the entire point of SOS as a plot point is to pinpoint an origin to this concept being widely considered

but this dialogue on a surface level implies it already was

that on top of the usage of benefactor just makes this pearl weird to me

[warm crater]

Not necessarily

I think what was happening is this
Bell starts performing parallel processing for a completely unrelated reason, becomes somewhat addicted to it,
as a result, their citizens start growing paranoid, because they believe there's only one real reason to start doing that
so they just annoy the fuck out of them with concerns like "Why are you doing that? What are you trying to do. What are you hiding? Are you trying to cross yourself out??"
In reality, this is something that never actually even occured to Bell before

[kind otter]

i think the only reason the idea was considered in the context of her death is because it was already a known topic

[edgy arrow]

isn't the implication gesture can't use parallel processing?

actually no

you're right

[kind otter]

like you gotta keep in mind the Iterators know fuck all about what happened, they wouldn't make the connection if it wasn't a known idea

[edgy arrow]

yeah, it's just the pearl somewhat- which is to say it does to a notable degree without directly doing so, implies this is something they actively try to do- which if it was, why would they need SOS to actually consider the idea

it and the whole benefactor thing just feels like it could be reworded in a way that isn't as strange

even if it isn't necessarily unfitting in context

[rugged notch]

it feels like its written as SOS's death was potentially the first actual hard evidence that bypassing is possible. before then, they probably tried so many times that it was eventually given up

[snow trench]

I just read it as Bennies being paranoid tbh

[warm crater]

again im pretty sure theres no proof SOS did any taboo bypass apart from the baseless accusation posthumously thrown at her

infact that baseless accusation is what inspired pebbles iirc

[edgy arrow]

i think it's likely the idea the pearl was built on, my problem is just that it doesn't sound like it is which makes it weird, especially with the usage of the term benefactor

[rugged notch]

yeah theres no evidence but they probably suspected it

[edgy arrow]

like hold on let me see if i can show you what i mean

[rugged notch]

i guess more like the first indication of the possibility

[warm crater]

pebbles certainly did convince himself this is an avenue worth pursuing

[edgy arrow]

i only just realized parallel processing is what pebbles used which makes it weirder for me to be honest

anyway

[rugged notch]

also are eigenselves mentioned anywhere else and do we know what they could be

can kind of guess but kinda funky because eigen kind of means self anyway

[snow trench]

Mayve something like "your selves", when referring to other parts of the fractured self?

[edgy arrow]

Gesture: Yes, greetings. Let us be quick, I have many tasks.

Host: Ah, yes. I suppose your impatience with your constituents is well documented...

Gesture: Its not my constituents so much as the speed at which you speak. I've many processing cycles, yet just one avatar to communicate with.
Host: Eigen-selves were banned, were they not?

Gesture: Yes.
Host: And rightly-
Gesture: Before you say it, no. Parallel processing is not some devious machine work-around for some strange attempt of self-ascension, and no, not self-annihilation, either. Isn't it absurd to limit our capabilities based on the so generous benefactors dogmatic need to have us mimic biological bottlenecks? We could achieve so-
Host: These are all-
Gesture: Politically inexpedient topics? Yes, yes. Call me an extremist if you must, but I have work to do.
Host: ...and that was Iterator Bell of Gesture```

[warm crater]

my first assumption was this referred to utilizing more than one avatar

[edgy arrow]

that's one thing that has me confused

[warm crater]

like maybe the earliest iterators had a tendency to start communicating in multiple voices at once to properly keep up with their own processing speed and they banned it because it was too overwhelming and incomprehensible

[rugged notch]

hm possibly

[warm crater]

like i don't think they have one singular unified "train of thought" so they just started bombarding their citizens with multiple of them at once for efficiency's sake

[rugged notch]

citizens be like 'can you not im tryna sleep'

[edgy arrow]

i thought it was implying they were scared of allowing them to operate at full potential for fear they'd find some way to outwit the systems in place

[warm crater]

trying to start a conversation only to be assaulted by a cacophony of multiple different conversations at once

[snow trench]

Yknow they should give Iterators a Huge Red Found Triple Affirmative Button in their puppet chamber for the funnies

[edgy arrow]

which makes sense given how little the iterators are capable of

and if you ignore that it's implied they could kill a city by denying it necessary resources if they willed it

lucky them the iterators had enough of a conscious to not do something so morbid

[warm crater]

theres also the matter of if you just up and starve your own city all you have left is yourself and a couple dozen internet chatrooms

probably not entirely preferable to most

[edgy arrow]

even moon wasn't remotely fond of talking to them so i don't think they minded at best forcing their citizens to go on a mass exodus to somewhere else

[warm crater]

don't think any of them would stoop to cruelty out of annoyance

[edgy arrow]

and i don't think I would risk it so makes sense they didn't

or didn't after building them

they felt secure enough to live on them knowing they always had the option

because it'd take a true maniac to actually do that

[hybrid minnow]

Honestly this scenario is really funny to imagine, that level of pettiness

[edgy arrow]

i wanna say it had to have happened once

hopefully not the city dying part

like they all were able to efficiently leave and distribute themselves to nearby cities or iterator cities efficiently-

but like, it had to have

and if it did- i hope we meet that iterator

[warm crater]

couldve been one of the other taboos encoded in them honestly

like there WAS stuff to keep them in check

[edgy arrow]

i mean they don't seem scared they'll find a way to so much as that they just will because they have direct control of the facilities they depend on

[warm crater]

we only really know of one taboo but isnt it implied their cells hold many, many more

[edgy arrow]

of course anything with even a miniscule moral compass wouldn't do that without good reason

especially at the risk of being socially ostracized by their peers

[hybrid minnow]

We still need Comically evil iterator /silly

[edgy arrow]

but the mere idea you could piss one off enough for it to even try is scary enough

[snow trench]

I think it was implied there is a taboo that stops direct taboo deletion?

[edgy arrow]

yes

well no

[warm crater]

oh yeah so we know of 2

[edgy arrow]

editing genomes

which would allow you to

[warm crater]

one that prevents self destruction and another that prevents direct genome editing

[edgy arrow]

moon says editing their own genomes but pebbles doesn't just edit the genome of neural tissue directly so i'm assuming it applies to all things

[snow trench]

We need RW version of Glados

[light crow]

Im here to scream i firmly believes prince rot is a dif type of "rot" from fp cancer vanilla or dp or not WAWAWA

[wet meteor]

i feel like if an iterator tried that they'd be stopped pretty quickly. like it would be kinda weird if the benefactors just didnt have any method of shutting off or otherwise dealing with an iterator that was trying to kill them

[edgy arrow]

their method is "just don't piss it off"

[warm crater]

i think glados and pebbles would have awful beef

[edgy arrow]

of course- it is an exaggeration tos ay the city would die

[hybrid minnow]

This played a major part in the human-ancient war as well all know /ref

[wet meteor]

so true

[hybrid minnow]

They nuked iterators

[edgy arrow]

i would simply not sit somewhere not recieving supplies, they have methods of travel

[light crow]

Reallt makes you think how they implement code of conduct in iterator
Do iterator goes to kiddie school and learn morals and alphabets

[wet meteor]

yes

[rugged notch]

war machine more like war iterator /j

[edgy arrow]

but not only is their inability to not provide resources not something suggested, it's actively suggested that that's something they could do

[wet meteor]

whoops meant to reply to the message directly below that

[warm crater]

Isn't inter-can travel usually not a thing to the point where the FP-LTTM bridge is considered an extremely unique configuration

[edgy arrow]

i believe the bridge was a downpour thing

wasn't it?

[hybrid minnow]

Yeah

[wet meteor]

it was

[edgy arrow]

either way i don't mean inter can

[warm crater]

oh?

wait hold on just to make sure

[edgy arrow]

i mean with like, vehicles

cars or even just trains

[warm crater]

is the thing about bennies moving from moon also a downpour thing

[hybrid minnow]

The precipice was added in Downpour

[hybrid minnow]

Yeah I think so

[edgy arrow]

it would be impractical to build such large machines with such distance and not install a method of efficient travel between them

and that's ignoring travelling between cities

not even iterators

[warm crater]

fehhhh jeeeesus christ i thought it was vanilla canon up until now

[kind otter]

precipice was a downpour addition made specifically because of gameplay concerns with spearmaster lol

which makes it weird how it seems to be one of the things people most commonly mistake for base game

[hybrid minnow]

I just assumed that every iterator was basically its own seperate subsociety that didn't really interact or have direct travel between each of them

[warm crater]

mostly the lore justification for its presence

at least in my case

[hybrid minnow]

I think it's because if you buy base game with downpour, you can see like that one extra room in five Pebbles that shows where the precipice connected

[warm crater]

yeah that's probably it i think its implied there's little to no infrastructure that would allow benefactors to properly survive underneath them

we don't see bennie-sized shelters at least

can't get down and move to another one

[hybrid minnow]

I assume any important info that needed to shared between all cities probably was kinda just sent over comms

Assuming there is such thing as important info everyone needs to know

[wet meteor]

they had to be able to go the distance between iterators to build more iterators, so i dont see why that would suddenly become unavailable once all the iterators were done being built

[kind otter]

i wonder how much access the average citizen would have to the comms network

[hybrid minnow]

I still sad we didn't find out that Five Pebbsi is canon to Watcher /silly

[dawn bear]

Benefactor discord lore when

[warm crater]

would assume the rains on an iteratorless plot would be safe enough to not be concerned with them

okay wait

[dawn bear]

Something I'm concerned about is the amount of oxygen bennies get above iterators

[kind otter]

the great equaliser seems pretty worldwide

[snow trench]

I dont think much, if at all. Or they simply didnt care much.

[hybrid minnow]

Space doesn't exist, so I think we are fine

[kind otter]

i don't think the atmosphere gets thinner higher up in rw

[warm crater]

kinda confused need to get something straight was it implied moon was in full operation when pebbles was being built

[edgy arrow]

yes

[dawn bear]

Yeah otherwise slugcat would fuckin suffocate up there 😭

[warm crater]

ok yeah he's newer

[hybrid minnow]

If anybody is confused about Watcher lore, consult the chart Cappin provided

[edgy arrow]

new in the sense he was created after moon

[kind otter]

she's old enough to be group senior and he was a much later one

[warm crater]

isn't Bell also implied to be in full operation in AU?

[quiet lava]

isnt she implied to be mid construction

[warm crater]

Is it possible the rains weren't fatal at some point until there were too many iterators

[quiet lava]

they? i forgot bell pronouns im ngl

[edgy arrow]

i don't believe we get any

[wet meteor]

i dont think you can have an interview with someone who's only half built

[kind otter]

people were still living on the surface in shaded at the point of five pebbles' construction

[warm crater]

I mean we have a pearl depicting them mid-construction but there's also one where they're on a talkshow which implies they're operational enough to Think and probably. like. Iterate.

[kind otter]

took a While for things to get as bad as they did

[dawn bear]

Okay but the construction pearl could just be old

[edgy arrow]

were they?

[tulip drift]

Erratic Pulse is in a sliverist group

Sliverist groups which started existing
after Sliver of Straw did the 3A thing

[dawn bear]

With the talkshow pearl being a newer one

[tulip drift]

yes, theres arguing regarding constructing him over holy ground. wouldnt be holy ground if they had departed the surface

[kind otter]

i don't see what all the fuss would be about if they weren't, yknow?

[edgy arrow]

because it's a place of value

[tulip drift]

if it was still a place of value it wouldnt be abandoned

[warm crater]

wasnt it moreso about the symbolic desecration from cloaking the place in pebbles' shadow

[kind otter]

exactly, it's still a place of value despite having no apparent industrial export

[edgy arrow]

technically they abandoned everything

though i think it was

probably maintained to some degree

[warm crater]

but yea anyhoo so its safe to say one iterator shouldn't be able to crush you with their output its just that there's so many of them pooling together by rainworld's time, then?

[kind otter]

shaded itself doesn't seem well maintained

[edgy arrow]

yeah being old

now imagine if it wasn't maintained at all

[hasty shore]

They had no choice
The surface was unlivable at that point

[edgy arrow]

though

subjective

so whatever

[kind otter]

yeah, it was a boiling frog situation i think

[warm crater]

makes sense

[edgy arrow]

maybe shaded is crumbling because it doesn't get enough sunlight

[hybrid minnow]

Yeah but the only real thing about SOS is that she actually like you know, died after sending the 3A

[tulip drift]

yes?

[warm crater]

do the bricks photosynthesize or something

[edgy arrow]

Sure

[snow trench]

Bennies made them, of course they do

[tulip drift]

But youre saying the EP dialogue is a display that the taboo was considered before the SoS incident, which we have no proof of

[edgy arrow]

this is why citizens of the citadel used to lick the walls

[warm crater]

that was a rhetorical question but i guess rainworld's weirdness does create the possibility

[wet meteor]

i love licking the photosynthesis walls

[tulip drift]

btw im just realising. this is technically another halo

[hasty shore]

This is why the quality of bone bricks is important!

[dawn bear]

I mean isn't rainworld's environment alive because it regenerates and manages to not get destroyed entirely by the torrential downpour?

[warm crater]

Im pretty sure the microbe thing is a downpour invention

[edgy arrow]

it is

[dawn bear]

Oh nvm then lol

My bad

[warm crater]

It could easily be extremely sturdy architecture

[edgy arrow]

stuff in rain world isn't affected by the rain because it would be lame

[warm crater]

Its fine some stuff sounds good enough to be canon

[edgy arrow]

how powerful the rain is even depends on whether or not The Gods feel like separating a family on one day or another

[dawn bear]

It's either that or crushing the family into a fine paste under the rain lol

[kind otter]

yeah, logically nothing in rain world should still be standing, microbes or not

[dawn bear]

Slugcat paste, now 12.2q!!!

[kind otter]

torrential rain strong enough to pulverise bones over long periods of time generally isn't good for a building's health

[warm crater]

Logic and rain world don't often mix anyhow

[dawn bear]

Yeah especially not after god-knows how many years lmao

[edgy arrow]

i mean even if we assume all architecture is just strong enough to last- there's no way graffiti and cloth would be unaffected

[dawn bear]

Omg yeah the cloth in farm arrays I never even considered that LMAO

[edgy arrow]

like rain strong enough to liquify a rat shouldn't have no effect on a piece of cloth

[warm crater]

PRANK: spray your friend with spray paint designed to never wash off even with power washers

[dawn bear]

Rainworld but it's all actually survivor's dream after getting separated from their family 🫢 😱/j/j/j

I hate dream theories LMAO

[tulip drift]

the only place ill tolerate dream theories for is shattered terrace

[dawn bear]

I could easily come up with some points but my god it's lame

[warm crater]

Gonna be honest im so glad watcher's events are now confirmed to be tangible at least to a considerable extent

[snow trench]

Dreams in RW are also much more real than in our world

[edgy arrow]

what makes you say so?

[snow trench]

Like its explained as other planes of existence rather than just imagination. And given Watcher stuff it wouldnt be too much to say you can literally enter and experience the dreams

[dawn bear]

That's so cool

[hybrid minnow]

Five Pebbles was feeling grumpy and decided to traumatize a child via separating them from their family

[warm crater]

Which part

[dawn bear]

Grown ass man separates child from family and years later tells them to jump into a deepfryer </3

[edgy arrow]

you can literally enter and experience the dreams

it's just not through making rifts across space and time

but by leaving your body behind

people just forget that part for some reason though

[hybrid minnow]

I still imagine Five Pebbles as being like a middle aged man, it's iust really funny to imagine him that way /silly

[warm crater]

I was just sort of afraid theyd keep it all sectioned off to like.. the vaguer branch of realities where Watcher has no real sway on anything therefore making a lot of the journey inconsequential

[snow trench]

Baby rodent gets separated from their family due to Godlike Calculators, then decides to reach higher plane of existence

[warm crater]

like Oh Yeah The Rot Can Keep Festering its not The Real World anyway

yknow?

[snow trench]

Yeah

[hybrid minnow]

Yaldaboathian feathered serpent enlists rat to perform surgery on reality, sealing wounds and curing cancer

[dawn bear]

The sentient rot being a dream-devouring force that eats your dreams and kinda melts them together is kinda scary
I love it

[snow trench]

VCS emote in maincord jumpscare

[warm crater]

still do believe sentient rot is a symbol for the perception-warping effects of nostalgia

[dawn bear]

Purple tinted glasses lmao

[edgy arrow]

that makes a lot of sense wow

[warm crater]

"it'll never be as good as the first time" except made manifest with a place actually physically becoming worse with each revisit

[dawn bear]

It's interesting how the sentient rot starts to disappear after enough Weaver meetings though

[hybrid minnow]

Prince puts purple tinted glasses on Watcher and is like "hey. It looks good doesn't it?" Then Watcher just takes the glasses off and it looks like a smelly dumpsyer

[dawn bear]

And starts having no effect on Watcher

[hybrid minnow]

When you enter a room as Weavered Watcher, you purify it of rot

[dawn bear]

Like down to the point where not even proto long legs can kill you

[hybrid minnow]

It's your presence doing that

[dawn bear]

Mmhm

That's what I mean

[hybrid minnow]

Prince takes it very well, even as you ruin his grand design

He's just happy for the journey

[dawn bear]

Surprisingly so, they acknowledge you as a god too similar to spinning top lol

[snow trench]

Prince when another will is opposing it vs when the random rodent decides to switch sides

[warm crater]

It actually kinda plays further into the symbolism I think because it makes the Weaver a sort of mentor figure that helps us gain a healthier perspective on everything
"The first time" is not something to glorify or romanticize to the extent each revisit actively hurts your perception of a place

[hybrid minnow]

He also calls himself a god, as he talks about "our fates"

[dawn bear]

Yeah true

[dawn bear]

I love your interpretation

[snow trench]

How does Prince manages to be so chill is just beyond me. Like no other NPC likes them and even you eventually decide to go against him and he is still happy 💔

[dawn bear]

Prince our beloved <3

[hybrid minnow]

He is full of pure whimsy

[astral helm]

because the prince isn't really a person like FP or LTTM is and he's also not Employed like Weaver is

[edgy arrow]

the game certainly implies that weaver is helping you due to having an enigmatic but presumably very similar past in learning to grow and reach a level of godhood

[hybrid minnow]

"Employed" is really funny way to describe Weaver

[astral helm]

the prince is such a fascinating case

[edgy arrow]

it's a mentor in the sense it teaches watcher how to grow up, a lantern in showing them the way forward

[astral helm]

they have yet to develop a sense of Malice and I doubt they ever will

like I don't think they can really read malicious intent either

[edgy arrow]

they learned to acknowledge the way they were responding to their situation was bad but they needed weaver to show them they need to move forward

[astral helm]

if you attack them they think you're just playing

[warm crater]

The Prince is stuck in a state of permanent innocence because the force he "embodies" leads everything to an unpleasant writhing stasis

[hybrid minnow]

Prince becomes tired old man in his final dialogue, and I love it so much

[warm crater]

Even then I do think his final meeting implies he is not beyond growing as a person eventually

[astral helm]

i mean i would call it a Festering but yeah. to be fair he does develop slightly by the end, at least finding Peace and also accepting that, perhaps, he's not so dissimilar from his inspirations

[snow trench]

Prince's final encounter is just the best part of the DLC.

[astral helm]

but its nature is not to grow. you gave to be there to help it

[astral helm]

its so cute

[warm crater]

Oh yeah festering is a better way to put it actually

[astral helm]

i started like. freaking out

no like

[edgy arrow]

not a slight development really

at most i'd give it subtle

[astral helm]

the first time i talked to prince again in 1.5 i was like. genuinely freaking out

i dont jnow why i missed him so much

but i did

he activates my Protective Instincts

i need to adopt it

[warm crater]

Its kind of adorable how he reacts to his perception finally being challenged

[edgy arrow]

prince goes through an entire process of being overwhelmed by new feelings and by the tragedy of its existence to making peace with everything which allows it to enjoy what it has

[astral helm]

i like that it's a little arrogant and becomes more humble

[light crow]

Priming is what

Primary school?

[astral helm]

something something accommodation (Piagetian)

[warm crater]

In general I think the Watcher masterfully toys with expectations

[edgy arrow]

yeahhhhh

[light crow]

R u gonna buy prince plushie

[warm crater]

I initially reacted to Spinning Top with fear because of how different they are and how each meeting seemed to make the rot worse

[astral helm]

depends how expensive it is...? probably not

[astral helm]

oooh interesting
they talked to me so they were Immediately My Friend

[warm crater]

But then you come to realize they're just a wandering child and its like.. fuuuuck

[light crow]

I seriously love that prince just go
"What a lovely view" at their crumbled kingdom
Truly staying consistent to their kind benevolent personality

[snow trench]

I first thought ST was somehow a broken / infected echo lol

[dawn bear]

I think most of us were afraid of spinning top at first because they seemed a bit crazy lol

[light crow]

Infected echo is such an interesting take

[edgy arrow]

a lot of people were against the idea of an ascension ending (despite it being where the story was going) but it wasn't just a normal ascension

[dawn bear]

I mean, who here immediately tried heading to pebbles through chimney?

[warm crater]

All of my friends reacted with fear and panic because of how different they look and someone pushed the immediate idea of them being the echo of a rot cyst

[light crow]

It was quickly apparent to me it was a cheeky cheery echo but i didnt make the its a kid connection until later like most people

[edgy arrow]

they used it to truly illustrate the scope of watchers journey to adult and godhood

[warm crater]

Which I do think is a very intended first-time reaction, at least the fear and confusion of it

[edgy arrow]

and let us see places... only ever glimpsed

[light crow]

Yea im pretty sure watcher choose to go down and become void worm
Not choosing ascension
Kind like a secret third thing

[light crow]

A journey like none before

[dawn bear]

The way you suddenly see the rot and it dawns in you that
You're not going the way you wanted to go, you're gonna go meet the echo now, but the usual music you've gotten used to is replaced by this... unnerving almost animal-like laugh

Peak cinema <3

[warm crater]

And again I do think they wanted you to view the prince as some pretender who's going to go mask-off eventually but its like.. nope. He's genuinely completely innocent

wrong reply but whatever

[light crow]

Yea i love it lol

[wet meteor]

prince is such an awesome character, im glad they get to un-karma themselves by the time of ending 4

[edgy arrow]

they also make you think its going to stay immature because it isn't capable of mental growth- but in the end it doesn't

[light crow]

Crazy how base on our standing of everything prince is horrifying but the personality and attitude is probablt some of the nicest you ever encounter (even better than moon for obvious reason)

[dawn bear]

Watcher really has a strong theme regarding growth huh

Even gameplay wise

[warm crater]

Yeup! I love it!

[snow trench]

I just wish the rooms around the rot were a bit more broken. Sudden realisation was good but imo it could be better.
Especially for the CC encounter

[edgy arrow]

it's not that prince rid itself of the flowers, it's that it made peace with them

so it wasn't overtaken by them to the point it couldn't do anything

[warm crater]

Also if I may mention I love how the Weaver's "NOW: / an understanding!" speech feels almost triumphant

Like I think its jubilant that it got through to you

[edgy arrow]

theme of youth

[dawn bear]

Childhood's end

[snow trench]

I find it hilarious how to meet Weaver multiple times you need to actively make their job worse

[dawn bear]

CONSIDER:
Can you not.

Clean up after yourself ffs

[snow trench]

Little rodent keeps tearing reality apart to impress Yalaboth But Good 💖

[warm crater]

God the Weaver is such a good addition

[dawn bear]

True!

[warm crater]

I had suspicions that they'd be a mentor type figure so that mightve made me like it even more

[dawn bear]

They can be in your hc if you really want them to be lmao

[snow trench]

Weaver is Watchers employee

[dawn bear]

Weaver teaches Watcher how to weave the portals shut <3

[warm crater]

Does make me wonder if the other void worms had similar encounters with them or if there might be other entities guiding creatures towards similar epiphanies

[tulip drift]

Still kind of obsessed with the implications of this
(before this, they say "After a point, it's all like this")

[snow trench]

wow damn that room looks really nice with an echo in it

[rugged notch]

i love that particular dialogue its one of my favs along with the one that goes ‘the metal all adroop’

[mellow rivet]

so this is the ripple space of watcher channels

[edgy arrow]

yes

[mellow rivet]

at least there's no ripple spawns to eat us up-

[light crow]

i do think with the "we are traveling time and space" theory (well more like, hinted here and there), it does mean at one point the future is all rot

plus if u remember my past/present/future theory
it means before the weaver's intervention, from spinny's perspective, every timeline ends in rot (our action in the present as we intentionally/unintentionally spread rot spores everywhere)

this does mean spinning is unable to see the future that weaver fix

[hybrid minnow]

I love all the strangeness that comes from time travel stories

[edgy arrow]

i always thought it was just like, places next to outer rim in some way

there'd kind of be like a trail as prince spreads from place to place

so given enough spread it'd kinda have this corner of places connected through rifts

the point if you will

[light crow]

i mean i dont think its real time travel but its kinda like for echos they dont experience time linearly anymore and by granting a slugcat echo power that also just means watcher getting haul into this weird "time" travel thingy

[tulip drift]

oh fuck me the comment someone just said in the spoilers channel just made me realise THE PRINCE AND WEAVER ARE COLOUR OPPOSITES

im so blind

[drowsy crow]

they pretty much opposites in every way it seems like

[tulip drift]

ye ye but like

very specific oval faces

except prince's is gold while weaver's is dark

feather-like bodies except prince's is dark and round and wavy while weaver is gold and sharp

ABSOLUTE SLUGNEMA

[hybrid minnow]

Prince is Watchies friend whilst Weaver is Watcher's boss

[tulip drift]

i see weaver more like a parent ngl

[hybrid minnow]

old smokers voice "You gotta do this job, rat, fix up all this shit for me and uour payment is getting ascended to godhood" - John Weaver /j

[light crow]

since we are in spoiler

https://fxtwitter.com/redunderscore_/status/1972422142823456817

im esau (@redunderscore_)

watcher spoilers
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**💬 5 🔁 17 ❤️ 101 👁️ 1.0K **

FxTwitter · Sep 28, 2025, 10:04 PM

they are complete opposite which is very funny

the purple and the yellow

i guess theres a pretty big reason for every rot thing in watcher campaign to be PURPOR

[hybrid minnow]

For a second I just thought they were buff and had their arms crossed (like that one lizard in the Inv Saint route)

[tulip drift]

PURPOR

they also had to change the rot from blue because blue has a fairly established meaning ESPECIALLY in woshy's campaign

and also. five pebbsi's overseers are blue. we can argue his rot is blue bc its born of him and not general rot

[hybrid minnow]

I think the Pebbles rot is blue because it ate all his bluish innards

And then the garbage waste rot is green because it was fed on a diet of garbage waste

[tulip drift]

id have said garbage rot is green/brown because its decaying cause of nothing to sustain on because its not the same as sentient rot and it wants that specific biomechanical goodness, but that works too

[hybrid minnow]

I do think that's part of it, but I do think that the diet probably also has something to do with it

[light crow]

they r soaked in their own tub

what if someone made a mod and the only thing that add is a "surprise creature" and its just one stowaway

[prisma fjord]

#watcher-lore allows untagged 1.5 now :peanutbutter: will close this thread in a bit

[kindred eagle]

i havent said anything here yet

[vale portal]

alright

[light crow]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO WHAT ABOUT THE THEORY THATS IN HERE

WONT IT BE ALL GONE

[prisma fjord]

the thread will remain possible to read

[vale portal]

theyll just be in read mode

?

[light crow]

oh ok

[fathom nymph]

[vale portal]

you can close threads, but make them read mode only iirc